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Perki-Perk
08-17-2011, 08:23 AM
Shaub to be over rated? I was reading the thread about Yates and Leinert and who might end up being the back up a few years down the road and it placed this question in my mind. I mean as far as a few of our receivers go, if you just get the ball in their area they'll catch it. Also, it seems 24-12 seems pretty good (Td-int ratio). Just to me, maybe because I'm a fan of the team, I over scrutinize certain aspects of the positions on the field. For instance. Shaub may have only had 12 interceptions last year, but didn't it seem like some of them came at extremely crucial moments? Just something I wanted to get other folks opinions on.

So I guess the question is, Do we as a fanbase over rate our quarterback? Or, is he rated on par?

Doppelganger
08-17-2011, 09:04 AM
Shaub to be over rated? I was reading the thread about Yates and Leinert and who might end up being the back up a few years down the road and it placed this question in my mind. I mean as far as a few of our receivers go, if you just get the ball in their area they'll catch it. Also, it seems 24-12 seems pretty good (Td-int ratio). Just to me, maybe because I'm a fan of the team, I over scrutinize certain aspects of the positions on the field. For instance. Shaub may have only had 12 interceptions last year, but didn't it seem like some of them came at extremely crucial moments? Just something I wanted to get other folks opinions on.

So I guess the question is, Do we as a fanbase over rate our quarterback? Or, is he rated on par?

It goes hand in hand. Was Aikman a good QB or did he have talented receivers to throw to and a talented line to protect him. It all goes together in my mind. Schaub is good and he has good targets.

BetaV1
08-17-2011, 09:09 AM
Many Texans will say likely say Schaub is right where he should be as far as quarterbacks overall goes. You don't throw for over 4,000 yards in consecutive seasons with that kind of touchdown to interception ratio because you're "average." I'm actually in the minority of believe that Schaub is underrated, perhaps even so much by this very fanbase, as I feel that Schaub can be placed in the top tier of quarterbacks -- the "elite."
I mean as far as a few of our receivers go, if you just get the ball in their area they'll catch it. This is where I whole heartedly disagree. You know Andre and usually Daniels make circus catches, but I've seen Kevin Walter and Jacoby Jones drop so many easily catchable balls that I sometime feel like I'm watching Little Giants. Schaub's accuracy over the past few years as been amazing. So much, in fact, that Schaub currently ranks fifth in career completion percentage, higher than the likes of Montana and Young:

+ = retired
1. Chad Pennington (34) 66.0% 2000-2010
2. Kurt Warner 65.5% 1998-2009
3. Drew Brees (31) 65.2% 2001-2010
4. Peyton Manning (34) 64.9% 1998-2010
5. Matt Schaub (29) 64.8% 2004-2010
6. Aaron Rodgers (27) 64.4% 2005-2010
7. Steve Young+ 64.3% 1985-1999
8. Tony Romo (30) 64.1% 2004-2010
9. Philip Rivers (29) 63.7% 2004-2010
10. Tom Brady (33) 63.6% 2000-2010
11. Joe Montana+ 63.2% 1979-1994 2TM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm

Naturally, that number could go down drastically over the course of his career, but it's scary to think how much higher it would be right now were it not for so many drops by a large portion of the team over the past few years. There's no question that Andre is one hell of a weapon to have, but there should also be no question that the all time greats have spent a majority of their careers with more overall talent. And yet there Schaub is, in company with the best of them.

As far as the interception at crucial times aspect, I have a simple question: when is an interception NOT crucial? A turnover is a turnover and if you lose the turnover battle, you typically lose the game. I'll be the first at admit Schaub blew it against the Ravens last year, for example, but you should also keep in mind that Schaub made some clutch throws to win us games such as Washington and Kansas City of last year. You'll hear the "Andre Johnson" argument yet again here, but the fact is that someone still has to throw him the ball, and with Schaub's uncanny accuracy, I don't think I'd trust many other quarterbacks out there today other than Schaub to make those throws.

dream_team
08-17-2011, 09:16 AM
I also think he's underrated. He easily should have been on the NFL network top 100 list.

spurstexanstros
08-17-2011, 09:19 AM
His stats should be higher if it werent for his tendancy to throw the occasional lawn dart or untimely pic six, I think he would be top 5. till he wins big games i think he is a good/great qb, but not elite.

El Tejano
08-17-2011, 09:21 AM
When you consider how well he still did with Andre out and then two years ago with Daniels out you realize how good of a QB he is.

I will say this though - no playoffs this year and it's time to bring some competition to camp.

TdotTexas2Step
08-17-2011, 11:18 AM
The numbers back him up for sure. Compare his production to other quarterbacks who are considered elite, and you'll see he's right up there if not above them.

However, he is beat in one category that also happens to be considered the most important by many - wins.

The biggest reason why he's never mentioned with the other accurate/top QBs is because he can't get the Texans over the hump.

It's funny because even if Schaub happens to have his worst year as a starter this season, as long as we make the playoffs, the media and fans who don't follow the Texans will suddenly view him as this really good QB.

DocBar
08-17-2011, 11:46 AM
The numbers that keep Schaub from being considered elite can be found in the W-L column. We start winning consistently and he'll be top 5 on a lot of lists.

Perki-Perk
08-17-2011, 11:55 AM
It's funny because even if Schaub happens to have his worst year as a starter this season, as long as we make the playoffs, the media and fans who don't follow the Texans will suddenly view him as this really good QB.

Isn't Rex Grossman a super bowl QB? LOL, Not that Shaub is a Grossman, I guess it just seems like when I watch Shaub, I don't see the elite "stuff" that you've seen in other elite QB's....not sure what it is, but nice stats none the less.

Texas T
08-17-2011, 11:57 AM
Shaub to be over rated? I was reading the thread about Yates and Leinert and who might end up being the back up a few years down the road and it placed this question in my mind. I mean as far as a few of our receivers go, if you just get the ball in their area they'll catch it. Also, it seems 24-12 seems pretty good (Td-int ratio). Just to me, maybe because I'm a fan of the team, I over scrutinize certain aspects of the positions on the field. For instance. Shaub may have only had 12 interceptions last year, but didn't it seem like some of them came at extremely crucial moments? Just something I wanted to get other folks opinions on.

So I guess the question is, Do we as a fanbase over rate our quarterback? Or, is he rated on par?

As far as the talent on our team "causing" Schaub to be overrated I would say no. Look at Leinert, as an example, he had many, many good targets to throw to in AZ and he did crap with them. Give him some schooling by Kubs and Schaub and he looks much better. I really think Schaub is the real deal and an extremely good QB. I know many of my friends who would love to have him on their team (minus the Colts and Pats fans I know). So that tells me that maybe he's a little underrated...but as Tdot pointed out he has never won a playoff game or even made it to the playoffs. That is really his only downfall he has.

TdotTexas2Step
08-17-2011, 12:02 PM
Isn't Rex Grossman a super bowl QB? LOL, Not that Shaub is a Grossman, I guess it just seems like when I watch Shaub, I don't see the elite "stuff" that you've seen in other elite QB's....not sure what it is, but nice stats none the less.

Lol, like you said, Schaub isn't Grossman. Throughout that season and post-season run, no one in Chicago was totally behind Rex. There was always criticism drawn his way before and after that Superbowl appearance.

As for the elite "stuff", I think it's all about perception. The more talented QBs will always have the numbers to back them up. However, the ones that get more attention are viewed in a particular manner because they do it consistently in big games. That's where you get those defining moments you see on NFL Films, lol.

Schaub doesn't have that moment yet. That's all it takes for the media machine to get going.

Perki-Perk
08-17-2011, 12:23 PM
Lol, like you said, Schaub isn't Grossman. Throughout that season and post-season run, no one in Chicago was totally behind Rex. There was always criticism drawn his way before and after that Superbowl appearance.

As for the elite "stuff", I think it's all about perception. The more talented QBs will always have the numbers to back them up. However, the ones that get more attention are viewed in a particular manner because they do it consistently in big games. That's where you get those defining moments you see on NFL Films, lol.

Schaub doesn't have that moment yet. That's all it takes for the media machine to get going.

I think part of what I'm talking about is when you watch a QB like Brady or Manning, if you a fan, your butt hole is probably not all clinched on a potential game winning drive. I guess maybe it's just me, but I don't have the confidence in Shaub that I think others have. When Shaub is on a potential game winning drive, my hole is new guy on the cell block with one eye open when I sleep tight because of the memories of interceptions and what not during really crucial moments.

I think that Shaub is a lot like Kubes, they just don't seem to have that killer instinct. I hope I am wrong, hope beyond hope, but this season there are no excuses...NONE!

powda
08-17-2011, 12:27 PM
Schaub is a cerebral quarterback with a pop gun arm (think Chad Pennington).
He is a rythme passer and ussually makes the safe play. In his first season you could count on 1 really bad pass per game. Sometimes it was picked and sometimes no. He also has a tendency to be off 1 out of every 3-4 games as far as his accuracy. What i want to see in those games is schaub throwing on the sideline while our defense is on the field.

When he is in sync he fits Kubiaks offense really well. I was pissed to see usa today (?) has him ranked as the 17th best quarterback in the league. Despite the interceptions that standout (Baltimore / Arizona) he is a conservative quarteback and dosent do many dumb things with the ball. He's not going to be a superstar hall of fame quarterback but he is superior to most of the qb's in the league...and I think he's more then good enough to win in the playoff's.

i think the play calling of our redzone offense in years past has handicapped him as well as the 10-15 play script we start every game with.

Something that really stood out to me in this preseason game was how much Leinert moved and shifted launch points. Schaub dosent or cant do it nearly as well...I think Kubiak would perfer it and that may limit him from a play calling standpoint. (the boot threatens a pass to the other side of the field and never more then a 3 yard run with Schaub)

jaayteetx
08-17-2011, 12:28 PM
How soon we forget what crappy qb play looks like and can do to a team.

Texas T
08-17-2011, 12:30 PM
How soon we forget what crappy qb play looks like and can do to a team.

Hmmmmmmmmm do you have someone in mind???

Gee I can't figure it out with all the hints and everything!!

That said I completely agree!!

NBT
08-17-2011, 12:36 PM
Scaub could be "elite", and probably should be. He has two "elite" receivers in AJ and OD, and two also rans in JJ &Walter. However the 3 FA WR's they brought in, Terrance Toliver, Jeff Maehl, and Lestar Jean, (especially Jean), may make it extremely uncomfortable for JJ and Walter before it is all said and done. That will also take care of the W-L record IMO. All other aspects being equal.

Perki-Perk
08-17-2011, 12:38 PM
How soon we forget what crappy qb play looks like and can do to a team.

LOL!! Don't get my wrong, he is obviously lightyears ahead of anything that other guy could ever accomplish. (Well, I did donate the 2 jerseys I had of his to goodwill and should be expecting a small return around April.. so atleast there is that!)

What I meant by overrated....was I just don't see that he's got what I've seen in the premier elite QB's. It's more than stats, or ol TMac would have got us past the 1st round, no? (please don't take that statement out of proportion either)

I want the Texans to do good, so maybe it's just because watching them for 9 years already, you start trying to pick them apart before the season, even when you want to be excited. How many times have we been let down when getting overly excited to start the season?

Ok, I'll stop with the Debbie Downer stuff, I was essentially only curious as to how other fans out there thought of #8...

badboy
08-17-2011, 12:46 PM
Schaub is a very good QB and the one I want for this offense. As entire team gets stronger and deeper QB and AJ will get better. We are seeing depth & maturity beginning to develop in WR corps which will help both Matt and Andre.

The Pencil Neck
08-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Schaub is a really good QB. When he was at Atlanta, his ball was more catchable than Vick's.

He's like a souped-up Pennington, a taller version of Brees.

He doesn't have the strongest arm, but his arm is strong enough to do whatever he needs it to do. He can make all the throws we need him to make.

He's got more of a killer instinct than most people give him credit for. He's gotten us down the field to pick up late go-ahead points a lot of times. But he can't play defense and it's not his fault that the D has screwed him.

The thing is, a team doesn't need the best QB in the league to win a lot of Super Bowls even though the QB usually gets the credit (think of the Giants with Parcells or the Redskins in the first Gibbs era). But you do need a good team.

Should we look to upgrade our QB to take us to the promised land? I don't think so. I don't think it's our QB or his play that's keeping us out of the promised land.

infantrycak
08-17-2011, 12:52 PM
Schaub is a really good QB. When he was at Atlanta, his ball was more catchable than Vick's.

He's like a souped-up Pennington, a taller version of Brees.

He doesn't have the strongest arm, but his arm is strong enough to do whatever he needs it to do. He can make all the throws we need him to make.

He's got more of a killer instinct than most people give him credit for. He's gotten us down the field to pick up late go-ahead points a lot of times. But he can't play defense and it's not his fault that the D has screwed him.

The thing is, a team doesn't need the best QB in the league to win a lot of Super Bowls even though the QB usually gets the credit (think of the Giants with Parcells or the Redskins in the first Gibbs era). But you do need a good team.

Should we look to upgrade our QB to take us to the promised land? I don't think so. I don't think it's our QB or his play that's keeping us out of the promised land.

What he just said.

BetaV1
08-17-2011, 03:02 PM
I'm getting a serious case of deju-vu here. Could've sworn we had a threat like this about a week ago...but we get this same topic every week. :gun:

I think part of what I'm talking about is when you watch a QB like Brady or Manning, if you a fan, your butt hole is probably not all clinched on a potential game winning drive. I guess maybe it's just me, but I don't have the confidence in Shaub that I think others have. When Shaub is on a potential game winning drive, my hole is new guy on the cell block with one eye open when I sleep tight because of the memories of interceptions and what not during really crucial moments.

I know quite a few Colts fans, and they'll be the first to tell me that Manning gets them nervous when it falls on him to win the "big game." His playoff record isn't exactly a thing of beauty, ya know. I'm not going to argue Brady, because I think he's the best to ever play the position (better than Montana), but Peyton is as much a choker as Favre. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. Phillip Rivers is considered by most to be in the "elite." class. Last year, Rivers had the number one offense and the number one defense around him.

9-7.

And for the all the talk about "winning the big game," the guy hasn't even been to a single Superbowl. I'm not saying Rivers isn't elite. He sure is. I'm pointing out the absurdity of judging the quarterback under a different microscope than how we judge other players at other positions in what is considered the ultimate team game.

We all already consider Andre Johnson elite, but why? He hasn't made it to the playoffs. He doesn't win consistently. He hasn't won "the big games." Ricky Jackson is a Hall of Fame linebacker who made his name with the New Orleans Saints. Many believe Ricky may actually be one of the best, if not THE best, to play that position. Yet the guy wasn't inducted into the Hall of Fame because the Saints were losers. It took the Saints winning a freakin' Superbowl to put that guy in the Hall of Fame. If Andre isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer, people will suddenly want heads to roll over the notion of wins and losses defining a player. This is a horrible double standard,

His stats should be higher if it werent for his tendancy to throw the occasional lawn dart or untimely pic six, I think he would be top 5. till he wins big games i think he is a good/great qb, but not elite.

Fair enough. Honest question: in the past two years, how many "big games" has Schaub lost? What were they? I've stated that Schaub most certainly has blown some games. I'm legit curious to see how many people vary on this number, and what games in particular that were considered "big."

Perki-Perk
08-17-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm getting a serious case of deju-vu here. Could've sworn we had a threat like this about a week ago...but we get this same topic every week. :gun:

I must say I do appologize for making you want to shoot yourself in the head. Chalk it up to rookie mistake I suppose.

BetaV1
08-17-2011, 03:44 PM
I must say I do appologize for making you want to shoot yourself in the head. Chalk it up to rookie mistake I suppose.

Haha. Not your fault, man! You seem legitimate in your interest of how the fanbase as a whole feels about Schaub. Like I said, I'm in the minority here so I'm sure a lot of people think I'm off my rocker on my assessment of Matt. Plus I'm also not in Houston. The place where I'm at has Brees on the television on Sundays, so a lot of people around here who know me ride me hard about how "garbage" Schaub is.

:kubepalm:

HJam72
08-17-2011, 03:52 PM
I get the feeling it would be very difficult to find a QB that would play better for us than Schaub without busting the heck out of the salary cap, trading away a lot of good players, and/or spending a lot of high picks to eventually find one that pans out. I say we keep 'im. :handshake:

sandman
08-17-2011, 04:22 PM
When you consider how well he still did with Andre out and then two years ago with Daniels out you realize how good of a QB he is.

I will say this though - no playoffs this year and it's time to bring some competition to camp.

This is asinine. Even if you consider OT pick six plays and late game interceptions that thwarted comebacks, the only reason the Texans were in those games was because Shaub had to fling the ball all over the field to overcome a defense that made Lindsey Lohan look like she had her act together.

Not saying he is God in shoulder pads, but come on. With all the low hanging fruit on this team in the way of improvement, and we're going to question if a QB with 9,000 yards and 53 TD over the last two seasons is the reason we are not getting to the playoffs? :vincepalm:

michaelm
08-17-2011, 04:26 PM
this is asinine. Even if you consider ot pick six plays and late game interceptions that thwarted comebacks, the only reason the texans were in those games was because shaub had to fling the ball all over the field to overcome a defense that made lindsey lohan look like she had her act together.

Not saying he is god in shoulder pads, but come on. With all the low hanging fruit on this team in the way of improvement, and we're going to question if a qb with 9,000 yards and 53 td over the last two seasons is the reason we are not getting to the playoffs? :vincepalm:


qft!

TimeKiller
08-17-2011, 07:30 PM
The best in the league? No. Will he ever be? No. Easily replaceable? No.

DocBar
08-17-2011, 08:08 PM
The best in the league? No. Will he ever be? No. Easily replaceable? No.I dunno about that one. Do I think it's likely? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes. It's a "what if" game, but "if" we can win 11+ games a season for 2+ years and he keeps throwing for 4K+ yds, I would think he'd be at least in the discussion. Most of the time, QB's get way to much credit and way to much blame for losses.

80tothezone
08-18-2011, 03:05 AM
I think he is under rated mainly because he plays for a houston team. Yeh he has made some mistakes in key moments but every QB's has those moments. I think the fact that we were in close last year despite a near record setting horrible D speaks volumes about him as a leader and a guy who can make the throws he needs to make. Everyone talks about the Baltimore game but he was starting from the what 3 yrd line throwing out of the endzone where his primary concern is don't get sacked. He is extremely accurate and has a decent arm. Anyway I think when we win this year all this talk of getting rid of people and how this player looks good because of this etc will be put to rest.... If we have another disappointing season then I might entertain the idea that some of these players need to go.

TimeKiller
08-18-2011, 07:42 AM
I dunno about that one. Do I think it's likely? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes. It's a "what if" game, but "if" we can win 11+ games a season for 2+ years and he keeps throwing for 4K+ yds, I would think he'd be at least in the discussion. Most of the time, QB's get way to much credit and way to much blame for losses.

I suppose you could what-if me to death.....

but look at the initial topic, the talent on offense causing him to be overrated? Look at that talent: Start at the top, AJ, surely headed to HOF, no doubts about this guy. After that? 7th round pick Walter, Dickerson, 3rd round Jones and some UDFA. TE? Bunch of mid/late round picks. RB? Slaton's a 3rd, Tate a 2nd but UDFA/FA's going nuts. OL? 1 1st, a 3rd and a BUNCH of late round/UDFA guys.

From all of those late round and UDFA choices to one of the top ranked offenses in football. If anything, I'd said Schaub causes other's to be overrated.

For a stark contrast in getting the most out of your talent, look at this defense:
DL: a 1st, a 3rd and at one point the biggest F/A signing of the team's history
LB: a 1st overall, a 1st and 2 2nds.
DB: the two biggest signings the team has made and a handful of high round picks.