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HTown2ATX
08-11-2011, 11:25 AM
So, probably like everyone else, the second the lockout was over, trash talking, general football talk and in depth/stat crunching football talk and testosterone over load started for me and probably most here too. (feels sooooo good to be posting and reading the "Texans Talk" section again and not just relegated to no sports section).

Anyway, so me and a friend who is a Packers die hard at my second job have been talking non stop football since the lockout ended.

We were talking about Elite QB's and I made the argument that Schaub, at least in my mind is clearly in that conversation. I said that he should definitely be in the top 10 in the league, pointed out the year he had the best stats in the league and was a top P. Manning, etc.

His argument was that Schaub couldn't be considered Eilte as he has not had a playoff win. I refuted this with he hasn't even BEEN there yet which is not on him. I also mentioned that clearly Andre Johnson is Elite and he has never been to the playoffs, etc. So I at least blew his argument up enough that he finally at least conceeded that Schaub is "fringe" Elite.

But, this just got me wondering what other Texans fans thought?

I'm sure this has been debated at some point, so sorry if this is a re-tread, but I didn't see or participate in the thread if there was one so this is new to me anyway :)

For the record, and you can see my posts from last season when we were all crapping on each other during the 2010 meltdown, I was clearly down on everything and wanted Kubes the eff out as in yesterday. Well, I'm still not sold on Kubes and wonder just what pics of McNair he has, but, with what we have so far done in the off season, I am genuinely starting to get really excited about this season!!!!! I even took this Monday off to watch a Pre-Season game against the JETS!! haha, I must be crazy! :fans:

Anyway, what say you? Schaub is "Elite" or no in your eyes?

Nawzer
08-11-2011, 11:30 AM
To me an elite qb is someone who has been to the playoffs multiple times and has had success there. I think Schaub is a fringe elite player at this point and unless the Texans experience playoff success, he'll always be a qb that's regarded very highly but not an elite player. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, and Phillip Rivers are the the elite qbs in the league.

Ole Miss Texan
08-11-2011, 11:32 AM
I voted "fringe".

I think Schaub is a really really good QB. He puts up huge numbers and he CAN bring our team back at the end to score the winning points (despite popular belief). I buy the playoffs arguement but only slightly. I don't think we can consider him elite until we do get a few playoff wins and the post season is more consistent.

I think Marino is one of the greatest QBs ever even though he never won a super bowl. I think Peyton Manning is one of the greatest QBs ever even though he's only won 1. I think players/QBs can have greatness be greatness without the "rings".

But I reserve Elite to be truly ELITE. Manning and Brady are Elite in my mind. Schaub isn't there yet but he's getting close, in my opinion.

houstonspartan
08-11-2011, 11:35 AM
Thing is, QB's are often measured by wins, losses and playoff appearances. It's the nature of the position, I think. The QB is the leader, and w's and l's are often - fairly or not - linked directly back to them.

Reciever's, on the other hand, are a tad different. One can use statistics to measure the effectiveness of a reciever. You are correct: Andre has never been to a playoff game, but, I would consider him an elite reciever? Is that fair? I don't know.

If the Texans lose a game, nine times out of ten, that loss will be linked to Matt Schaub somehow. Even if Andre did something to blow the game, Schaub will be blamed. Again, it's the nature of the position.

This is all just my opinion, of course.

And, or the record, I, personally, love Schaub, and think he's on the fringes of being "elite." He needs a few more w's.

Dutchrudder
08-11-2011, 11:37 AM
Elite QBs in the league:
Manning (the good one)
Brady
Rodgers
Brees


That's it for me. Top 4 out of 32 starters, which is about the top ~10%.

TEXANRED
08-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I said no. When he starts to win games that matters I may change my mind.

Schaub is an average QB with an elite WR that inflates Schaubs stats.

ChampionTexan
08-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I voted No because I don't think he's currently elite, and I don't believe there is a fringe when it comes to elite - you either are or you aren't.

I do think he's clearly above average, and while I stated there I don't believe in the "fringe" category, I think he is on the level immediately below elite, and he has the potential of reaching elite as soon as this season.

BIG TORO
08-11-2011, 11:42 AM
*fringe*

He shows flashes of being elite some times, but just flashes!

coon
08-11-2011, 11:47 AM
As much as it pains me to say no I had to. I think to be an elite qb in this league you have to be in the top 10 percent which gives you around 5 truly elite qb's. Matt is top ten in my mind no doubt and a pro bowl caliber guy, but not elite.
Brady, Manning, Brees, Rothliesburger, Rodgers are the elite guys. However just like withe Rodgers last year he only needs that one run the th trophy to make that jump. I see not much difference in him and Phillip Rivers who hasn't had much postseason success.

b0ng
08-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Not elite but that has less to do with Schaubs stats as it does with overall team performance.

gary
08-11-2011, 11:51 AM
In order to be elite he will need the rest of the team to play well and get him over the hump. Every year we talk about the talented team we have but never win which leads me to believe that the coaching is the problem and not the players. We will see what this year brings.

AnthonyE
08-11-2011, 11:55 AM
Elite QBs in the league:
Manning (the good one)
Brady
Rodgers
Brees


That's it for me. Top 4 out of 32 starters, which is about the top ~10%.

This is the correct way to go about doing this. Top 10 percent. We have the same players listed as elite, too.

Schaub defintely belongs in the fringe category. Say Top 20-25%. In the last two seasons he's been as good as anyone in the league with TDs and yards. If he had a decent defense that kept the other team from scoring less than 25 points, he'd have a much, much better win-loss record. That said, some losses are on him (Ravens last year, even though without him we wouldn't have even been in the position to win...)

badboy
08-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Elite is top 5 to me and he is not but is very close. I really like him for this team. Was a steal for 2 seconds. 4,000 yds consistently is hard to sneer at.

Dutchrudder
08-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Elite is top 5 to me and he is not but is very close. I really like him for this team. Was a steal for 2 seconds. 4,000 yds consistently is hard to sneer at.

So who's your 5th guy if you take the four I listed above? I had a hard time thinking of a clear fifth best QB, so I cut it off at four. Phillip Rivers? Vick? Schaub? Eli Manning? Cutler? Rothlesburger? I think it's a tough call, but the first four were easy for me.

Tonaaayyyy
08-11-2011, 12:14 PM
Tough. Who's better? Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?

BIG TORO
08-11-2011, 12:15 PM
Tough. Who's better? Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?

As a Texan fan I dont want to answer that!

Texan_Bill
08-11-2011, 12:22 PM
Meh... These discussions while fun, are meaningless. This isn't baseball where the pitcher gets the W, L or ND. This is football, the ultimate team sport. What could Schaub have done to stop the Jets from going 68 yards in 42 seconds with no timeouts? I'm not sure Schaub could've stopped Brice McCain (I think) from hitting a set shot right into the Jags recievers hands.

Point is, the QB can control some things on the field, but again its a team sport.

Is Schaub what I would call an elite QB? No. In fact in my opinion there are only 2 current QB's that hold in that regard. Otherwise, it's guys like Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Johnny U, etc....

Tonaaayyyy
08-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Well what is elite anyways? Only 2 QB's are on a different level from the rest of the league and the next 10 qb's are pretty much above avg.

Thorn
08-11-2011, 12:26 PM
Meh... These discussions while fun, are meaningless. This isn't baseball where the pitcher gets the W, L or ND. This is football, the ultimate team sport. What could Schaub have done to stop the Jets from going 68 yards in 42 seconds with no timeouts? I'm not sure Schaub could've stopped Brice McCain (I think) from hitting a set shot right into the Jags recievers hands.

Point is, the QB can control some things on the field, but again its a team sport.

Is Schaub what I would call an elite QB? No. In fact in my opinion there are only 2 current QB's that hold in that regard. Otherwise, it's guys like Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Johnny U, etc....

um.....yeah......pretty much this.

Schaub is darn good, and would still be good without AJ, and I for one am happy as hell to have him as our starting QB. But elite? Nope.

HJam72
08-11-2011, 12:35 PM
Just to go along with the progression here, you have to win 10 Superbowls to be elite....so....nobody ever has been yet...

Thank you... :wadepalm:

Who was that QB who won a Superbowl with the Ravens?

Just askin'.

I'm pretty sure that every "elite" QB ever has made some bad plays, even in key game-is-on-the-line situations. On the flip side, I mostly agree that a QB shouldn't be accountable for something like....oh....one of the worst secondaries in history.

Frankly, I think Matt really has to win the big one to be considered elite because....well, he's goofy looking. :kubepalm:

dinkatoid
08-11-2011, 12:35 PM
I think the rings/playoff wins argument sucks, because this is a team game. A QB is really important, but even a top notch QB will falter with a bad team.

I agree with a lot of what I read here saying that he is not elite. I do not think that is bad though, he got shafted by playing along side Peyton and Brady, which is pretty hard to live up to. These are the only 2 I would call elite, as they are surefire hall of fame players.

I think Brees is right there below, but I struggle putting him in the same category as the two above. I would say he is in my "fringe" category so to say. Rodgers also belongs here, as both of these guys could easily move up. I think I will surprise a few and round out my top 5 with Phillip Rivers. The guy puts up incredible numbers even when throwing to guys he doesn't know. Last year was every excuse for him to have a bad year, and he did quite the opposite.

I am on the edge about even putting Big Ben into the "fringe" category, so I kept him one below it. He is definitely a good QB, but he has a few more downsides in my opinion that keep him just below the 3 above. This is the same group I would put Schaub in. He is definitely above average by a decent margin, and top 10 QB in the league, but has a few more downfalls as the guys above.

dinkatoid
08-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Frankly, I think Matt really has to win the big one to be considered elite because....well, he's goofy looking. :kubepalm:

In that case, even 1 ring wont be enough to save Peyton...

HJam72
08-11-2011, 12:38 PM
I just repped a dinkatoid. :wadepalm:

BIG TORO
08-11-2011, 12:59 PM
I just repped a dinkatoid. :wadepalm:

LMAO me too!

HTown2ATX
08-11-2011, 01:10 PM
See to me, and maybe I am watering down the term "Elite" which is unintentional, I consider Schaub in the "conversation" as in if you took the top 10 QB's in the league, which I would consider to be "Elte", Schaub would have to be in that list, maybe right at number 10, but on the list none the less.

Now, reserving P. Manning, Brady, etc., only as "Elite" I can understand, but I consider them as currently active HOFers so that is another level entirely of which Schaub is clearly not a part yet.

But to me, "Elite" can be used to described Schaub. So I don't consider "Elite" to only include Brady, P. Manning, etc., I consider it to mean more of like, one of the best in the league, that any other team would scramble to get and would be considered amongst the top 10 starters out of 32. So I guess I maybe use "Elite" more loosely than some.

But I do recognize that Brady, etc, are not only "Elite" but in another class above that by themselves. Hopefully this makes sense to more people than just me.

:bender:

TheMatrix31
08-11-2011, 01:13 PM
Schaub is somewhere around 7 or 8 on my list.

Something like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers ahead of him for sure.

HTown2ATX
08-11-2011, 01:15 PM
Schaub is somewhere around 7 or 8 on my list.

Something like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers ahead of him for sure.

Agreed.

My list (some QB's below #5 could be flip flopped but I'm at work so just threw them down...)

Tom Brady (using rings as a tie breaker but I don't use rings to determine "Elite" ie Dan Marino)
Peyton Manning
Big Ben (YOU spell his last name haha)
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Matt Ryan
Mike Vick
Matt Schaub
Phillip Rivers
Eli Manning (hey, it was between him and Romo so eff Dallas.....)

thunderkyss
08-11-2011, 01:25 PM
His argument was that Schaub couldn't be considered Eilte as he has not had a playoff win. I refuted this with he hasn't even BEEN there yet which is not on him. I also mentioned that clearly Andre Johnson is Elite and he has never been to the playoffs, etc. So I at least blew his argument up enough that he finally at least conceeded that Schaub is "fringe" Elite.

But, this just got me wondering what other Texans fans thought?


I understand what you're saying about the play-offs. But unfortunately for a QB, wins count. & you get to the play-offs by winning football games.

It's not fair, I know it. But it is what it is.


He's fringe, because we know his production isn't a fluke. He's going to get you 3500+ a season.. around 20 TDs.

All he's got to do now, IMO, is win.

Ω

thunderkyss
08-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Elite QBs in the league:
Manning (the good one)
Brady
Rodgers
Brees


That's it for me. Top 4 out of 32 starters, which is about the top ~10%.

I don't put Rodgers in that category.

For me, the only elites in the league are Peyton, Brady, & Romo......


I'm just kidding about Romo.

Peyton
Brady
Brees

then second Tier in my mind

Rivers
Schaub
Rodgers
Ben


Vick had 1 good year, McNabb had one bad year. I've still got McNabb over Vick in a lower tier.

silvrhand
08-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Elite = first time NFL hall of fame ballot.

Elite:
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

1st Tier:
Big Ben
Aaron Rodgers
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees

The only thing that keep Matt Schaub out of the 1st tier to me is his arm strength and down the field throws are just really bad..

BetaV1
08-11-2011, 01:52 PM
Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

thunderkyss
08-11-2011, 02:03 PM
Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

Good post. Almost worthy of rep. But the attitude... I decline.

You see how that works. Yes, Schaub is comparable in several categories to the elites, but the elites have it all. They are deserving... Schaub is fringe.

2slik4u
08-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Tough. Who's better? Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?

No question for me. Schaub.

I personally think Matt Ryan is a tad bit over rated.

2slik4u
08-11-2011, 02:16 PM
Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

Great post.....and for the record, I agree with you. Rep.

The1ApplePie
08-11-2011, 02:17 PM
I said no. When he starts to win games that matters I may change my mind.

Schaub is an average QB with an elite WR that inflates Schaubs stats.

That's why I call him the white Daunte Culpepper

Fringe for me. I'd put him and Romo in about the same place. Good QB that can win a Super Bowl, but certainly not one of the greats.

HTown2ATX
08-11-2011, 02:19 PM
That's why I call him the white Daunte Culpepper


:backsout:

C'mon man....he's better than that ;)

The1ApplePie
08-11-2011, 02:21 PM
:backsout:

C'mon man....he's better than that ;)

I don't mean it out of disrespect

Pep was a good QB in his prime, even a complete player. His stats just got bumped in a huge way because of Moss.

In that way, Schaub is the straight Jeff Garcia:lion:

HTown2ATX
08-11-2011, 02:28 PM
I don't mean it out of disrespect

Pep was a good QB in his prime, even a complete player. His stats just got bumped in a huge way because of Moss.

In that way, Schaub is the straight Jeff Garcia:lion:

Lol...I know what you meant. Just thought it was funny....images of him flashed through my head.

beerlover
08-11-2011, 02:31 PM
Schaub is a system QB who is tied @ the hip to the success or failure of his head coach, right or wrong. This affliction is not insurmountable given a stronger support group :grouphug:

In regards to specific QB skill set, Schaub has elite leadership ability & game management skills, his height gives him tremendous advantage reading defenses & getting the ball out & though passing lanes. Not as accurate as I would like, especially under pressure, lacks mobility to scramble out of trouble, arm strength is suspect (needs time, hence play-action) with his long launch point, needs to step into throw making him susceptible to big hits/injury so there is durability concern. I like his position @ the top, good release with soft touch making his throws easy to catch :throwball:

Matt Schaub is one hell of a nice guy but he needs to get have some playoff wins under his belt (Superbowl wouldn't hurt either) & put more pressure/fear into opposing defenses, until then I'm going to have to say fringe :htown2atx:

PockyAF
08-11-2011, 03:26 PM
To me an elite qb is someone who has been to the playoffs multiple times and has had success there. I think Schaub is a fringe elite player at this point and unless the Texans experience playoff success, he'll always be a qb that's regarded very highly but not an elite player. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, and Phillip Rivers are the the elite qbs in the league.

You're right, AJ is nowhere near being in the same class as Fitzgerald. I mean the guys been to the Super Bowl for pete's sake. AJ.. we'll he had that one year where we had a winning record.

Wait, he didn't even make the playoffs, so there's no way he can even be talked about as one of the "elites". Someone please tell Bill Cowher he's doing it wrong.

Because everything's rides on playoffs accomplishment, in the ultimate team game.

incubry
08-11-2011, 04:03 PM
Definite Fringe...I won't consider him elite till Andre doesn't have to make a complete stop on deep passes and when Schaub learns to be more accurate and hits him "in-stride"

Rey
08-11-2011, 04:15 PM
I put fringe.

And the only reason I say that is because he has not played on any big stage and performed under pressure. He has not won any play-off games, he has not even played a play-off game.

I know that is not solely his fault, but I need to see Schaub perform in big games before I call him elite.

If Shammy performs big in the play-offs I don't see how anyone could deny that he is elite.

SteveSlaton20
08-11-2011, 04:24 PM
no, but i have him in the top 10, at worst top 12, and he does what he needs to do to win games, but unfortunately he never had a great defense to carry him. and kris brown ruined our chances in '09.

Dutchrudder
08-11-2011, 05:16 PM
e·lite
noun
1. The choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

It's the best of, so I think 4 of 32 sounds about right. Maybe 3 of 32 to make it right at the top 10%, but the problem I have with these kinds of questions is that people expand the definition of elite to mean whatever they want. I remember two years ago some guy from ESPN made a list like this with 15 QBs listed as elite, which included Vince Young, but Schaub was #16. It was dumb, because the top 50% can't really be 'elite' by definition.

In any case, I think people need to be more critical graders in general when applying this term, not just to QBs, but to all positions. If you have more than 5 players listed as 'elite', then you're probably stretching the term too much and watering it down. Be strict! It's the only way to uphold the standards!

In that regard, I would be much happier with just labeling Manning and Brady elite, and stopping there, rather than adding a fifth QB like that whiney assclown Rivers to the list. Brees and Rodgers are kind of a toss up for the #3 and #4 spots, but I think Brees is winding down, whereas Rodgers is just beginning his ascent to elite status.

ATXtexanfan
08-11-2011, 05:50 PM
schaub elite, nope

Texecutioner
08-11-2011, 06:11 PM
The elite QB's in the NFL are

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Brees
Rivers
Big Ben

Typically it's like the guys in the top 5, but Ben and Rivers are somewhat of a toss up and Ben has been to 3 SB's and won two of them. I'd call these guys the elites that are constantly at the top every year, have all done some pretty good things in the playoffs, or the SB.

After that you've got a group of guys consisting of in no particular order Matt Ryan, Vick, Schaub, Eli, Freeman, Romo, Flacco.

Nothing wrong with being in that 2nd tier group of guys. Those are all pretty good QB's that can lead a team to a great record and have playoff success. Schaub doesn't need to be elite for fans to be happy with him and with what we have.

jaayteetx
08-11-2011, 06:20 PM
Definite Fringe...I won't consider him elite till Andre doesn't have to make a complete stop on deep passes and when Schaub learns to be more accurate and hits him "in-stride"

^^^^this

The Pencil Neck
08-11-2011, 06:28 PM
To me, there's Brady and Manning. Those two are the creme de la creme. They are head and shoulders above everyone else. They've won lots of games, they've won SB, they've won yardage titles, they've set records, etc.

After that, you've got Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, Schaub, Roethlisberger, and Vick. All of those guys have the potential to be elite but for some reason or another, they haven't gotten there. They've all got some questions in their game.

Brees is the guy that's right there at the cusp of eliteness but he just hasn't quite pushed himself into that category. The rest of those guys aren't quite as close and they all need several more years of success and some SBs before they get there.

If Schaub were to come out and have an MVP season and win a SB, he'd leapfrog Brees for that #3 almost but not quite elite position. He's got to have a couple of amazing seasons to get up into that category for me.

I voted fringe because he's in the category of guys who have a shot to get there.

Texecutioner
08-11-2011, 06:46 PM
To me, there's Brady and Manning. Those two are the creme de la creme. They are head and shoulders above everyone else. They've won lots of games, they've won SB, they've won yardage titles, they've set records, etc.

After that, you've got Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, Schaub, Roethlisberger, and Vick. All of those guys have the potential to be elite but for some reason or another, they haven't gotten there. They've all got some questions in their game.

Brees is the guy that's right there at the cusp of eliteness but he just hasn't quite pushed himself into that category. The rest of those guys aren't quite as close and they all need several more years of success and some SBs before they get there.

If Schaub were to come out and have an MVP season and win a SB, he'd leapfrog Brees for that #3 almost but not quite elite position. He's got to have a couple of amazing seasons to get up into that category for me.

I voted fringe because he's in the category of guys who have a shot to get there.

In the last 3 to 4 years I don't see how Brees has been any different than Manning. His numbers are right there with his. He has a SB ring now just as Manning does and his team beat Manning's team where Manning threw an INT to lose it. His numbers were just as good as Manning's that season as well and just as easily could have won the MVP. Rodgers has been better than Manning has in his first 3 seasons of playing. He has a ring just like Manning does and his numbers have been just as good and he can scramble a lot better and has played with a worse O line. The only reason why I'd put Manning over Rodgers at this point is because Manning has done it longer, but in the last two seasons he's been right there with Manning.

duckbill58
08-11-2011, 06:51 PM
To me an elite qb is someone who has been to the playoffs multiple times and has had success there. I think Schaub is a fringe elite player at this point and unless the Texans experience playoff success, he'll always be a qb that's regarded very highly but not an elite player. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, and Phillip Rivers are the the elite qbs in the league.

schaub > rivers. period. playoffs or not

Nawzer
08-11-2011, 06:57 PM
schaub > rivers. period. playoffs or not

Well I'm glad you ended that debate.

Double Barrel
08-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Elite QBs in the league:
Manning (the good one)
Brady
Rodgers
Brees


That's it for me. Top 4 out of 32 starters, which is about the top ~10%.

This is the list that I would draw up for elite, as well.

I'd probably put Schaub in the top 10 or right outside of it, simply because going down the list of current starting QBs reveals it.

In a black and white poll, he's not elite. But in a shades of gray poll like this one, he's easily fringe.

b0ng
08-11-2011, 07:22 PM
If you're going to rank QB's by playoff wins do it legitmately. I don't see Sanchez or Flacco anywhere on these lists.

As much as we would like to be able to put QB's in a vacuum we really can't, or at least nobody has really figured out a proper stat to adequately gauge each QB on their own merits. I mean if you're going to say a guy who threw for well over 4k yards, double digit TD's and a ratio that's greater than 1 : 1 is not good because he's never been to the playoffs, then you should definitely be ranking the guys who are mediocre at best, but surrounded by lots of talent/coaching talent. Matt Hasselbeck still must be good, I mean he got the Seahawks that win in the playoffs last year, plus he took his team to the SB (five or 6 years ago), so that's gotta be worth like 3 or 4 of those ever so craved playoff wins.

Yes it's silly to have to take this wins = only stat that matters business to these conclusions, and you can see now why taking only playoff records at face value in QB evaluation is silly. Still though, I wouldn't put Schaub as elite at this moment. He doesn't have enough years of being really good on paper yet.

thunderkyss
08-11-2011, 07:27 PM
Rodgers has been better than Manning has in his first 3 seasons of playing. He has a ring just like Manning does and his numbers have been just as good and he can scramble a lot better and has played with a worse O line. The only reason why I'd put Manning over Rodgers at this point is because Manning has done it longer, but in the last two seasons he's been right there with Manning.

I'm just not feeling all the Rodgers love.


I'm just not.

Texecutioner
08-11-2011, 07:35 PM
I'm just not feeling all the Rodgers love.


I'm just not.

It doesn't really matter. His statistics have been off the charts since his first year of starting and he's been lights out in every post season game he has played and has a ring already. He's a top 4 NFL QB easily at this point.

Texecutioner
08-11-2011, 07:36 PM
schaub > rivers. period. playoffs or not

Great argument and analysis.

EllisUnit
08-11-2011, 08:49 PM
I voted "fringe".

I think Schaub is a really really good QB. He puts up huge numbers and he CAN bring our team back at the end to score the winning points (despite popular belief). I buy the playoffs arguement but only slightly. I don't think we can consider him elite until we do get a few playoff wins and the post season is more consistent.

I think Marino is one of the greatest QBs ever even though he never won a super bowl. I think Peyton Manning is one of the greatest QBs ever even though he's only won 1. I think players/QBs can have greatness be greatness without the "rings".

But I reserve Elite to be truly ELITE. Manning and Brady are Elite in my mind. Schaub isn't there yet but he's getting close, in my opinion.

So is barry sanders elite ?

Texan_Bill
08-11-2011, 09:15 PM
Well I'm glad you ended that debate.

:lol: SmartA$$!! I mean, :heh:

MEGA SWATT
08-11-2011, 10:54 PM
Yeah, elite.....why not.:lion:

ObsiWan
08-12-2011, 03:30 AM
To me, there's Brady and Manning. Those two are the creme de la creme. They are head and shoulders above everyone else. They've won lots of games, they've won SB, they've won yardage titles, they've set records, etc.

After that, you've got Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, Schaub, Roethlisberger, and Vick. All of those guys have the potential to be elite but for some reason or another, they haven't gotten there. They've all got some questions in their game.

Brees is the guy that's right there at the cusp of eliteness but he just hasn't quite pushed himself into that category. The rest of those guys aren't quite as close and they all need several more years of success and some SBs before they get there.

If Schaub were to come out and have an MVP season and win a SB, he'd leapfrog Brees for that #3 almost but not quite elite position. He's got to have a couple of amazing seasons to get up into that category for me.

I voted fringe because he's in the category of guys who have a shot to get there.

I have to agree with TPN.
There are only two.
I judge the "Elite" status this way: If any of the guys that folks have listed/discussed retired tomorrow, would they be Hall of Fame worthy? There are only two guys currently playing with the resumes that would draw a definite, no argument, no-brainer "yes" answer to that question: Brady and Manning. Therefore, everyone else mentioned - Big Ben, Brees, Rodgers, maybe Vick - are all at whatever designation comes right below "Elite". They may be on their way, but they still have work to do. If you put the "Are the Hall of Fame material" question to each of those guys, you don't get a definite "yes"; you get a "maybe" or a "yeah if...." as in yeah, if he wins another ring (Brees, Rodgers) or yeah, if he was more consistent (Big Ben), yeah, if he wins a ring or two (Vick and perhaps Schaub).

And for those who say there are HoF'ers like Marino who don't actually have a ring, they better have great numbers. And when Marino retired he pretty much owned the QB record book.
:twocents:

spurstexanstros
08-12-2011, 09:42 AM
Other than his tendancies to throw lawn darts or behind receivers at times. i think he is really solid. He has shown he can move offense and score on any d....almost at will. i just wish on the deep ball that he would not under throw and give our Wrs chance to get some YAC yards. too often do we see andre back peddling waiting for ball...AJ is not that fast ( he is fast but not wait on pass fast) Also if Schaub can eliminate the inconvient pic 6 six from time to time, he would be well on way to elite.