PDA

View Full Version : Stat comparison: JJ and DA...a definitive analysis???


GP
08-07-2011, 06:35 PM
I'm posting a side-by-side jpeg image that shows career stats for both guys. Stats are for losers, yeah yeah yeah, but still...stats can tell a story in some instances, especially in terms of individual stats.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/DA-vs-JJ.jpg

GP
08-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Look at the 20+ column.

17 career receptions by JJ that were between 20 and 40 yards in length vs. only 8 by DA in the same length of reception. And that's with JJ having one less season than DA here (JJ has four seasons vs. DA's five).

That's DA with over half as many 20+ receptions as JJ.

-----------------------------

Look at the 40+ column.

JJ has 5 career 40+ receptions compared to DA's 1 40+ reception.

-----------------------------

Analysis 1: JJ is stretching the field BIG TIME. The stat comparison for that category is brutally in favor of JJ as giving your team "more" bang for the bucks.

Analysis 2: Look at FIRST DOWNS. JJ has 61 career first downs vs. DA's 50.

Conclusion:

Jacoby has such HUGE production when he DOES catch the ball, that his failures are magnified because we all want to see him become consistent like Andre Johnson. It's a greed thang. We all know he's a freak on the field, but we slap our foreheads when he doesn't come through on something.

For that, he gets labeled as being "coddled" or not being worth the hassle.

No other player on this team do you, nor Kubiak or any other Texans employee in the operations side, want to see go somewhere else and finally "get it" than Jacoby Jones.

That would be, IMO, one of the worst cuts in team history. It would be absurdly awful. I think he has this year and maybe 1 or 2 more in him, and after that (according to what he does THIS year) it's up to Texans brass to decide if he's still growing or he has peaked and is just a flash every now and then.

In addition, if JJ blows up huge this year...he and his agent might make the decision FOR the Texans if they press for a new deal for big big bucks. I don't think we'd do it, frankly, because of the talent that Kubiak has been able to acquire in draft and UDFA route each year.

Call me crazy, but Tolliver and Jean seem to be pressing HARD like no other guy has before (for where they came from and what's ahead of them on the roster). JJ could become very expendable if Kubiak is smart enough to develop Tolliver and Jean. Even Townsel (sp?) seems like he's got potential.

I don't see how Kubiak can even contemplate trying to sneak Tolliver and/or Jean onto the Practice Squad. To me, unless they have an atrocious preseason, those two guys become a part of the roster. Not sure how that affects roster limits and/or depth chart in other positions, though.

EllisUnit
08-07-2011, 06:42 PM
would rep you if i could. good post and break down. I agree J.J is a play maker and to cut him would of been one of the dumbest move our FO has ever made, good thing they didnt.

Texas T
08-07-2011, 06:42 PM
Jacoby has such HUGE production when he DOES catch the ball, that his failures are magnified because we all want to see him become consistent like Andre Johnson. It's a greed thang. We all know he's a freak on the field, but we slap our foreheads when he doesn't come through on something.



This^^^^

The biggest thing about JJ and these stats don't show is how many passes has he dropped?? Maybe more telling would be a thrown to/reception stat??

I'm in the camp that thinks that he CAN be good, as GP said, if he became consistent.

Playoffs
08-07-2011, 06:43 PM
Good stuff, I agree. Must spread rep.

gary
08-07-2011, 06:59 PM
These stats do show that Jones is better but he just needs to do it on a daily basis.

ObsiWan
08-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Was there anyone who thought DA would been the more logical one to keep than JJ?

EllisUnit
08-07-2011, 07:14 PM
Was there anyone who thought DA would been the more logical one to keep than JJ?

yeah one guy :facepalm:

gary
08-07-2011, 07:20 PM
yeah one guy :facepalm:I wonder who that was.

EllisUnit
08-07-2011, 07:26 PM
I wonder who that was.

:thinking: you :)

gary
08-07-2011, 07:34 PM
:thinking: you :)And I stand by that. Mostly because there were more consistent receivers out there who were free agents but not anymore.

Dutchrudder
08-07-2011, 07:35 PM
I wonder who that was.

David Anderson?

EllisUnit
08-07-2011, 07:41 PM
And I stand by that. Mostly because there were more consistent receivers out there who were free agents but not anymore.

thats cool. i liked D.A but J.J shows flashes of being better than average, and D.A was average. J.J is fast, versatile, has some ups. ALL he needs to do is work on his hands, that can be fixed, lack of speed and explosiveness cant be fixed so easily.

gary
08-07-2011, 07:49 PM
thats cool. i liked D.A but J.J shows flashes of being better than average, and D.A was average. J.J is fast, versatile, has some ups. ALL he needs to do is work on his hands, that can be fixed, lack of speed and explosiveness cant be fixed so easily.I'll take it and root for him to do well. I always cheer for a Texan anyway.

ObsiWan
08-07-2011, 07:51 PM
And I stand by that. Mostly because there were more consistent receivers out there who were free agents but not anymore.

I understand dumping them both to snag a F/A WR but I'm not sure we could have afforded one of those primo (or near-primo) WRs with the little bit of salary cap space dumping those two guys would have provided.

oh well, we'll never know now.

2slik4u
08-07-2011, 08:01 PM
would rep you if i could. good post and break down. I agree J.J is a play maker and to cut him would of been one of the dumbest move our FO has ever made, good thing they didnt.

I can think of a few others that would have topped this if this happened...

EllisUnit
08-07-2011, 08:05 PM
I can think of a few others that would have topped this if this happened...

such as ???

gary
08-07-2011, 08:05 PM
I understand dumping them both to snag a F/A WR but I'm not sure we could have afforded one of those primo (or near-primo) WRs with the little bit of salary cap space dumping those two guys would have provided.

oh well, we'll never know now.Just to be clear I was not advocating dumping JJ and giving his job to Anderson but just signing a different free agent. But it's over now and Jones is still here and he has my full pledged support.

vupac1
08-07-2011, 09:16 PM
We already have our quota of very consistent yet unspectacular WR with Kevin Walter.

Although I would have preferred to let Dorin Dickerson take Jacoby's role of potentially superstar wild-card, I don't entirely mind keeping Jacoby and stay waiting for that breakout year he's supposedly been on the verge of for so long

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2011, 09:21 PM
They played different roles . DA = Wes Welker and JJ = Alvin Harper . One's job is get the 3rd and 5 the other is to be a big play threat .

GP
08-07-2011, 09:29 PM
They played different roles . DA = Wes Welker and JJ = Alvin Harper . One's job is get the 3rd and 5 the other is to be a big play threat .

To a degree.

You had AJ as the WR1. Most times Walter was WR2. And you had a combination of either DA or JJ out there as a 3rd WR.

It feels like DA got the majority of time at WR3 in 2009, and then JJ got that chance in 2010. JJ getting stronger as the years go by.

DA's salary was a problem, too. IIRC, Denver tried to get him from us (when McDaniels was HC of Broncos) but we matched and therefore kept him...which means we probably should have let him go to begin with. At least I think that's how it went down.

Anyway, we have Dorin Dickerson and two UDFAs who will gladly take anything that Jacoby won't win and/or hold onto. There are worse things that could happen than the Texans being wrong about JJ vs. DA.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2011, 09:37 PM
To a degree.

You had AJ as the WR1. Most times Walter was WR2. And you had a combination of either DA or JJ out there as a 3rd WR.

It feels like DA got the majority of time at WR3 in 2009, and then JJ got that chance in 2010. JJ getting stronger as the years go by.

DA's salary was a problem, too. IIRC, Denver tried to get him from us (when McDaniels was HC of Broncos) but we matched and therefore kept him...which means we probably should have let him go to begin with. At least I think that's how it went down.

Anyway, we have Dorin Dickerson and two UDFAs who will gladly take anything that Jacoby won't win and/or hold onto. There are worse things that could happen than the Texans being wrong about JJ vs. DA.

My point is as goofy as DA was , he had the highest wunderlich in his draft class . He was a good slot reciever cause he could make his reads fast . He was also sure handed and played special teams . Not bad for a guy who was going to the Wharton School of business .

I do agree about Dickerson and the FAs . The Texans skill positions are getting very deep real quick .

Ole Miss Texan
08-07-2011, 10:02 PM
Great work GP. I agree that Jacoby has huge potential and when he finally gets it, he's going to be very dangerous. Let's hope that's this year.

I also agree with Honoring Earl here, Jacoby and Anderson play two completely different WR roles and are asked to do completely different things. You can't evaluate their stats against each others.

I'm also really excited about the WR group we have on this team. The 1st and 2nd year guys have TONS of potential!

BigBull17
08-07-2011, 10:42 PM
They played different roles . DA = Wes Welker and JJ = Alvin Harper . One's job is get the 3rd and 5 the other is to be a big play threat .

DA is Welker in his wettest dream. DA was a WR who was average at best. Slow+small=unable to gain separation/box out DBS.

gary
08-07-2011, 10:52 PM
Anderson is not Welker by any means but their roles are close to each other.

thetexanator
08-07-2011, 11:11 PM
JJ is not as consistant as alvin harper. hes more like chris sanders from the oilers. so much dang potential but never really put it all together. so much speed and can break it any time he touches the ball, but poor hands.

pbat488
08-07-2011, 11:18 PM
i'm with earl on this one; these two are completely different and comparing stats like that without other parameters (down/distance/time of game etc) doesn't show a whole lot in my opinion.

JJ is undoubtedly going to look better; he's going to 'flash' a lot more due to the opportunities he's given to make plays on the outside and on deep routes, while DA runs short to intermediate routes and gains tough yardage.

i'm not trying to crap on JJ here, just saying that the way those stats are presented doesn't accurately depict what these guys did.

with that said, i'm hoping maehl can pick up our offense and contribute in some ways for us, he seems like a great replacement for the DA role and could represent a pleasant upgrade at least athletically over DA.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2011, 11:34 PM
i'm with earl on this one; these two are completely different and comparing stats like that without other parameters (down/distance/time of game etc) doesn't show a whole lot in my opinion.

JJ is undoubtedly going to look better; he's going to 'flash' a lot more due to the opportunities he's given to make plays on the outside and on deep routes, while DA runs short to intermediate routes and gains tough yardage.

i'm not trying to crap on JJ here, just saying that the way those stats are presented doesn't accurately depict what these guys did.

with that said, i'm hoping maehl can pick up our offense and contribute in some ways for us, he seems like a great replacement for the DA role and could represent a pleasant upgrade at least athletically over DA.

Maehl had the faster 3 cone drill ever recorded at the combine . I guess this means he can explode out of his cuts .

DexmanC
08-08-2011, 12:02 AM
Could DA do THIS??

http://i37.tinypic.com/2vju7t2.jpg

'nuff said.

GP
08-08-2011, 12:58 AM
I always thought a WR's role was to put up yards and score TDs.

JJ outperformed DA in every category but fumbles/fumbles lost.

9 TDs to 3. More first downs. Longer gains, by a pretty big margin.

I don't understand this idea that David Anderson is somehow the Kurt Rambis of the NFL and he has his own "niche." LOL.

You guys want somebody who can catch a 5-yard curl pattern and be dead on the spot? Fine. You want a guy who can catch a quick slant and get 1 yard of YAC before being tackled? OK. DA's that guy.

He didn't really do anything extraordinary as it's being proposed. He's become a legend around here, and for what I can't seem to understand. For getting to do the string dance three times out of a 5-year career here? For 3 TDs in 5 years? Curls and quick slants? It's hard for me to sit here and say I'm not trying to minimize his "role," but it's just odd that his "role" is so small in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the "role" argument will suffice as to why David Anderson will always be highly revered around here. JJ Moses was like DA: Caught the ball on punt returns, did decent with it, but never scored or could seemingly never break away form the pack.

We've got a WR3 in Jacoby Jones and it's being made out that his stats were better because of "roles?" I don't follow the logic. I'd even go so far as to say that JJ might be more valuable than Kevin Walter, but that would cause all hell to break loose if I dared say that. For some reason, Jacoby Jones is destined to be in a few people's doghouse forever.

I think the "disappointment" factor when he doesn't dazzle every time he's targeted, whether it's his fault or not on the play, coupled with what might be a perception of Jacoby goofing around and not being as serious about football as a guy like DA, is what makes most people hesitate to get behind the guy and root for him.

All I know is that the guy is electric and he can score points. There was even a time or two or three last season where JJ made incredible catches, even for TDs, and it was the spark our offense needed to chip away from the all-too-familiar deficit we'd be in every game.

DexmanC
08-08-2011, 01:08 AM
I always thought a WR's role was to put up yards and score TDs.

JJ outperformed DA in every category but fumbles/fumbles lost.

9 TDs to 3. More first downs. Longer gains, by a pretty big margin.

I don't understand this idea that David Anderson is somehow the Kurt Rambis of the NFL and he has his own "niche." LOL.

You guys want somebody who can catch a 5-yard curl pattern and be dead on the spot? Fine. You want a guy who can catch a quick slant and get 1 yard of YAC before being tackled? OK. DA's that guy.

He didn't really do anything extraordinary as it's being proposed. He's become a legend around here, and for what I can't seem to understand. For getting to do the string dance three times out of a 5-year career here? For 3 TDs in 5 years? Curls and quick slants? It's hard for me to sit here and say I'm not trying to minimize his "role," but it's just odd that his "role" is so small in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the "role" argument will suffice as to why David Anderson will always be highly revered around here. JJ Moses was like DA: Caught the ball on punt returns, did decent with it, but never scored or could seemingly never break away form the pack.

We've got a WR3 in Jacoby Jones and it's being made out that his stats were better because of "roles?" I don't follow the logic. I'd even go so far as to say that JJ might be more valuable than Kevin Walter, but that would cause all hell to break loose if I dared say that. For some reason, Jacoby Jones is destined to be in a few people's doghouse forever.

I think the "disappointment" factor when he doesn't dazzle every time he's targeted, whether it's his fault or not on the play, coupled with what might be a perception of Jacoby goofing around and not being as serious about football as a guy like DA, is what makes most people hesitate to get behind the guy and root for him.

All I know is that the guy is electric and he can score points. There was even a time or two or three last season where JJ made incredible catches, even for TDs, and it was the spark our offense needed to chip away from the all-too-familiar deficit we'd be in every game.

You see what I see. Jacoby makes plays that gets the Texans WINS.
DA is a "Rudy"-like character. As long as the team doesn't depend on him
for ACTUAL production, the fans can feel their hearts warmed by the
"lil engine that could" getting a catch or two, then promptly falling down
within 2 yards after the catch.

GuerillaBlack
08-08-2011, 01:53 AM
I always thought a WR's role was to put up yards and score TDs.

JJ outperformed DA in every category but fumbles/fumbles lost.

9 TDs to 3. More first downs. Longer gains, by a pretty big margin.

I don't understand this idea that David Anderson is somehow the Kurt Rambis of the NFL and he has his own "niche." LOL.

You guys want somebody who can catch a 5-yard curl pattern and be dead on the spot? Fine. You want a guy who can catch a quick slant and get 1 yard of YAC before being tackled? OK. DA's that guy.

He didn't really do anything extraordinary as it's being proposed. He's become a legend around here, and for what I can't seem to understand. For getting to do the string dance three times out of a 5-year career here? For 3 TDs in 5 years? Curls and quick slants? It's hard for me to sit here and say I'm not trying to minimize his "role," but it's just odd that his "role" is so small in the grand scheme of things.

I guess the "role" argument will suffice as to why David Anderson will always be highly revered around here. JJ Moses was like DA: Caught the ball on punt returns, did decent with it, but never scored or could seemingly never break away form the pack.

We've got a WR3 in Jacoby Jones and it's being made out that his stats were better because of "roles?" I don't follow the logic. I'd even go so far as to say that JJ might be more valuable than Kevin Walter, but that would cause all hell to break loose if I dared say that. For some reason, Jacoby Jones is destined to be in a few people's doghouse forever.

I think the "disappointment" factor when he doesn't dazzle every time he's targeted, whether it's his fault or not on the play, coupled with what might be a perception of Jacoby goofing around and not being as serious about football as a guy like DA, is what makes most people hesitate to get behind the guy and root for him.

All I know is that the guy is electric and he can score points. There was even a time or two or three last season where JJ made incredible catches, even for TDs, and it was the spark our offense needed to chip away from the all-too-familiar deficit we'd be in every game.

But he is the funniest football player evar!

buddyboy
08-08-2011, 02:13 AM
I don't think ANYONE is saying JJ doesn't have more talent or more potential, that much is clear. Nor do I think anyone was saying we should have kept DA over JJ.

Sure, stats like that are great, but when I think of JJ vs. DA, I have to give DA reliability. JJ might be the flashier wide receiver, but he was hit or miss. Sure, he'd take some to the house, which, I am no discounting by any means.

But he'd also make boneheaded drops or fumbles during returns that just make you shake your head. The question is: do you want your third wideout to be a guy who can potentially lose the game for you, or for him to potentially win the game for you?

To be honest, I don't know how comfortable I feel hinging the gameplan on JJ. He's a playmaker to be sure, and I hope he gets his stuff together. If he can become a reliable threat, that means, not just lightining striking once in a while, then we'll have a great #2 on our hands.

As far as Kevin Walter is concerned, he underperformed last year, to be sure. But I love having him in there across Andre where he can pick up first downs and block the edges out so Arian can go wild.

buddyboy
08-08-2011, 02:16 AM
*repost*

GP
08-08-2011, 02:17 AM
But he is the funniest football player evar!

I bet he's a blast to hang out with, that's for sure. And seems like he lives pretty modestly (the Cribs: Locked Out! Edition video).

I bet he's going to have fun living in Colorado, that's for sure.

GP
08-08-2011, 02:23 AM
I don't think ANYONE is saying JJ doesn't have more talent or more potential, that much is clear. Nor do I think anyone was saying we should have kept DA over JJ.

Sure, stats like that are great, but when I think of JJ vs. DA, I have to give DA reliability.

Reliability? That sounds so boring, though. And slow. "I have a really reliable car. She's not much to look at it, but she'll do alright to get me up and down the road." Can't score a hot chick with a white '99 Civic.

Just messing with you, man. In honor of DA, I had to come up with some comedy in this post.

I think he could do better in a Spread type offense, which is what the Pats run and what McDaniels was trying to run in Denver. Not sure if it's what's awaiting him NOW...but still, he ought to get some playing time in Denver for sure.

Long live The String Dance!

Trail.Blazr
08-08-2011, 09:00 AM
I don't think ANYONE is saying JJ doesn't have more talent or more potential, that much is clear. Nor do I think anyone was saying we should have kept DA over JJ.

Sure, stats like that are great, but when I think of JJ vs. DA, I have to give DA reliability. JJ might be the flashier wide receiver, but he was hit or miss. Sure, he'd take some to the house, which, I am no discounting by any means.

But he'd also make boneheaded drops or fumbles during returns that just make you shake your head. The question is: do you want your third wideout to be a guy who can potentially lose the game for you, or for him to potentially win the game for you?

To be honest, I don't know how comfortable I feel hinging the gameplan on JJ. He's a playmaker to be sure, and I hope he gets his stuff together. If he can become a reliable threat, that means, not just lightining striking once in a while, then we'll have a great #2 on our hands.

As far as Kevin Walter is concerned, he underperformed last year, to be sure. But I love having him in there across Andre where he can pick up first downs and block the edges out so Arian can go wild.

Reliable-Schmiable...



JJ didn't make THIS list.. but look at some of the names on it.... They ALL SUCK and are unreliable.. everyone on it should be replaced by David Anderson!!

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj218/Hollyfeather/jjstats.jpg

I understand.. The guys on this list get close to 100 looks per year, but even so, JJ didn't make it, so can we stop making his drop issue out to be "Chronic"?

You can't make an omelet if you don't break a few eggs.

I'll wager that if you gave JJ enough passes to make this list, you'd see him in the pro bowl.

PS - GP, I'm with you on KW ;-)

Ole Miss Texan
08-08-2011, 10:01 AM
1. When looking at stats (I'll admit I'm a huge stats junkie) you have to keep it in perspective. You can't just rely on the number given. Just like in rushing or receiving yards, the total figure is great, but looking at those yards compared to the number of rushes or receptions is highly important. The same goes for dropped passes. You've got to compare the number of drops to how many "catchable" balls were thrown that way. Then you can likely have a more even playing field. Likewise, a pass may be harder or easier to catch if your 5 yards from the LOS vs. 20 yards. Jacoby was targeted 79 times compared to Andre's 138 and Anderson's 18. Keep that in perspective when looking at dropped passes.

2. I stand by the FACT that just because they're called Wide Recievers doesn't mean they are asked to do the same thing. Nobody is saying Anderson is better than Jacoby. But the two play vastly different positions even though they're both dubbed "WR". It's like saying LB. The weakside, middle and strongside linebacker positions are all asked to do different things on the field just as the Split End, Flanker and Slot receivers are with the WR grouping. Anderson's skillset is best suited for staying closer to the L.O.S. and that's how he was used, he wasn't asked to go downfield, that's what Jacoby is better. Just by virtue of their "sub-position" within the WR group, Jacoby is more likely to have a higher Yards Per Catch average than Anderson. DA's position is a highly valuable one and can be a QBs best friend. I'm not saying DA is irreplaceable, I think the position is.... and I have really high hopes for Jeff Maehl. I really hope he has a good camps and gets a shot this year.

But comparing Jacoby vs. Anderson stat for stat would be like comparing the WOLB vs. SOLB in Wade's defense. Ware/Mario play the WOLB position and rush 95% of the time.... the other Outside spot not as much. So you'd probably be correct in saying Ware is better than his counterpart in x,y,z category because "look at the stats" but that's probably why they're in the position they're in (playing that spot).

michaelm
08-08-2011, 10:31 AM
But comparing Jacoby vs. Anderson stat for stat would be like comparing the WOLB vs. SOLB in Wade's defense. Ware/Mario play the WOLB position and rush 95% of the time.... the other Outside spot not as much. So you'd probably be correct in saying Ware is better than his counterpart in x,y,z category because "look at the stats" but that's probably why they're in the position they're in (playing that spot).

The premise of the thread is basically a straw man argument to me. I wouldn't compare DA to JJ, personally.
Other than this thread, I really haven't noticed many people making a comparison between the two players.

OTH, I agree with the opinion that JJ has more value than DA on virtually every level, except as a comedian.

JJ is more prone to make me cry than to make me laugh... as CretorFrigg says, Jacoby has dropped more balls than puberty.

Seņor Stan
08-08-2011, 11:54 AM
Reliable-Schmiable...



JJ didn't make THIS list.. but look at some of the names on it.... They ALL SUCK and are unreliable.. everyone on it should be replaced by David Anderson!!

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj218/Hollyfeather/jjstats.jpg

I understand.. The guys on this list get close to 100 looks per year, but even so, JJ didn't make it, so can we stop making his drop issue out to be "Chronic"?

You can't make an omelet if you don't break a few eggs.

I'll wager that if you gave JJ enough passes to make this list, you'd see him in the pro bowl.

PS - GP, I'm with you on KW ;-)

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8327&team=34

4 drops on 78 targets for JJ

Doppelganger
08-08-2011, 11:59 AM
I wonder who that was.

David Anderson!

Dutchrudder
08-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Reliable-Schmiable...



JJ didn't make THIS list.. but look at some of the names on it.... They ALL SUCK and are unreliable.. everyone on it should be replaced by David Anderson!!

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=



I understand.. The guys on this list get close to 100 looks per year, but even so, JJ didn't make it, so can we stop making his drop issue out to be "Chronic"?

You can't make an omelet if you don't break a few eggs.

I'll wager that if you gave JJ enough passes to make this list, you'd see him in the pro bowl.

PS - GP, I'm with you on KW ;-)

Some drops are worse than others though. Like remember when AJ dropped a catch against the Chargers and kicked it up for an INT? Or when Steve Johnson dropped an easy catch that would have been a game winning TD against the Steelers? I can recall both of those pretty well, but I can't recall any game changing Jacoby drops aside from a muff punt here or there.

The Pencil Neck
08-08-2011, 12:49 PM
David Anderson's Drop Stats: 18 Targets, 0 drops, 61% caught, 27.8% first down. (http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8000&team=7)

But I don't know who determines drops vs. incompletions. I thought I saw more than 4 drops by JJ last season. I remember drops against the Colts (in the end zone) and Jaguars and I'm pretty sure he had drops against the Redskins and Raiders. And that's just what I remember.

Personally, I don't compare JJ and DA. They play different positions and have different responsibilities and expectations.

I wanted them both gone. I thought they were both eminently replaceable. They chose to replace DA and not JJ and for the continuity of the offense, I'm OK with that. But I'm hoping the UDFA's we got, who are good, or DD can take JJ's spot.

Rey
08-08-2011, 12:55 PM
I liked what da brought to the offense. But he was replaceable.

And he was not funny to me.

Trail.Blazr
08-08-2011, 01:13 PM
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8327&team=34

4 drops on 78 targets for JJ just over a 5% drop rate on JJ


Additional Comparisons -
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6339&team=34
7 drops on 138 for Andre - just over a 5% drop rate


http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7027&team=17
13 drops on 123 for Wes Welker - just over a 10% drop rate


http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8000&team=7
0 drops on 18 for David Anderson - WOW - he's perfect!!!



So for sure, David is RELIABLE... but let's not get carried away with Jacoby's drops being problematic.. Unless you want to lump Andre and Welker into the same category of having problems with it as well.


As it's been mentioned.. statistics are not the basis for all. The two play different roles. I agree. I can subscribe to the logic that David is more of a "possesion" target and as the evidence shows, when targeted, he's making the catch. But for all those dissin on JJ, can we dispell the notion that Jacoby's dropped passes are a big detraction from his game? That dog don't hunt. Find another reason to hate the player. :kitten:
I still don't get the need, but to anyone's credit.. it's your priveledge as a fan.

In respect to the DA supporters though, I will concede this... By going the JJ route and dropping DA, in RELIABILITY alone, we do lose an element there, where as JJ, if it were reverse and he was let go, there are others that could potentially step in and "strech" the field, so at best, we've eliminated a security blanket that we now don't have the option of targeting 18 times this season.

When I think back to the Rams a decade ago, Isaac Bruce; Torry Holt; Az Hakim...
I look to our team and feel they have potential to be better in comparison.. Andre is another level above them all; Kevin Walter; JJ or DA? I gotta go with JJ. DA can't fit the "Greatest Show" as he's just not that "showwy" with his 18 grabs. Mix in a Tolliver or Dickerson. Oh(BIG O), factor Owen... SCARY good recievers we have. I'd stack them up against the Rams corp any day. We got immense depth. Pretty nice.

GP
08-08-2011, 01:44 PM
Some drops are worse than others though. Like remember when AJ dropped a catch against the Chargers and kicked it up for an INT? Or when Steve Johnson dropped an easy catch that would have been a game winning TD against the Steelers? I can recall both of those pretty well, but I can't recall any game changing Jacoby drops aside from a muff punt here or there.

Jacoby goofed up a catch near the opponent's end zone in the Dallas game, IIRC, and it got picked off. I think it was the Cowboys game. It was a pretty bad "Doh!" moment. So close to being a great reception, but he deflected it right into the hands of the defender. I even think it got returned for a TD.

Then he turns around in other games and makes huge grabs that you think no human could make. He had one CRAZY TD reception in an away game last year where he slashed over the middle and straight up blazed across the goal line and leapt into the air and made a circus catch for a TD. Oakland game maybe? It was stoopid sick.

silvrhand
08-08-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm sorry but wasn't JJ more then often lined up outside while DA mostly played the slot position? I wouldn't think you could compare stats if that's mostly the case, as the slot receiver is nowhere near as likely to run the longer and deeper routes.

Double Barrel
08-08-2011, 01:51 PM
Jacoby goofed up a catch near the opponent's end zone in the Dallas game, IIRC, and it got picked off. I think it was the Cowboys game. It was a pretty bad "Doh!" moment. So close to being a great reception, but he deflected it right into the hands of the defender. I even think it got returned for a TD.

Then he turns around in other games and makes huge grabs that you think no human could make. He had one CRAZY TD reception in an away game last year where he slashed over the middle and straight up blazed across the goal line and leapt into the air and made a circus catch for a TD. Oakland game maybe? It was stoopid sick.

I like the positives that JJ can bring to a game, but it's his inconsistencies and what appears (to me) his showboating-first attitude that cause me to not put him on a pedestal.

There is no doubt that he can be an explosive player, but he needs to be more consistent to be the reliable receiver that Schaub needs. He always seems to be thinking about his next move before he has secured his current move, and that always makes me nervous when he's in on a play.

I'm not hatin' on the guy. He's a Texan and I'm a fan, so he's our guy. But, that being said, he's not above analysis and criticism of his game.

GP
08-08-2011, 01:57 PM
One thing I noticed is that he makes catches when he's in stride and in constant fluid motion as the pass nears him.

If he stops moving his legs, he bobbles it. On punts, the same thing: He catches them when he's moving toward it...but bobbles it if he's standing still.

There is something about the movement in his legs being connected to him handling the reception. Watch this season and see what I mean. It's the weirdest thing.

It's as if he has to be moving FAST in order to complete the process 100%. Slow things down, and he freaks out and can't finish it.

Ole Miss Texan
08-08-2011, 02:14 PM
I think part of what gets Jacoby on the badside of this fanbase is that on any given play it could be a Touchdown or a Fumble. He epitomizes the phrase "high risk, high reward". It's not just his dropped passes, but his muffed punts. Every time the ball goes to him you can literally hear the entire city of Houston collectively holding their breath.

7 fumbles on punt returns.
2 fumbles on after receptions.

4 Dropped Passes last year, but how many in the years before?

It seems like Jacoby has developed over the years as a receiver, but it's hard for us to get the past out of our head. I'm really hoping this is the year it all comes together and he has a huge breakout year. Dre, Jacoby, OD and Foster?? We've got some real lethal weapons!

Maddict5
08-08-2011, 02:29 PM
ppl have been making best of/worst of JJ lists but i dont think anyone has mentioned his best grab or worst drop imo:

best catch: td grab v the pats, wk 17 09. just a sick catch when he was kinda double covered & he still somehow managed to get his feet down

worst drop: cant believe nobody mentioned it but the drop on MNF in the 1st half v the ravens last yr. 3rd down- he was wide open, schaub throws it right to him. nobody around and he somehow drops it. had to kick a fg instead. that 4 pts wouldve come in handy in the 4th q. think ppl kinda forget it cos he made some good plays in that game (4th down td & 2 pt) but imo it was his worst drop as a player

gary
08-08-2011, 04:24 PM
I think Jacoby just needs to concentrate on catching football first and then turning it up field for the huge gain. Think ball first and then make a b line for the end zone.

c10x
08-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Here. I started a thread for you guys.

Can we please leave the Training Camp Updates thread for actual training camp updates now?

Thanks.

michaelm
08-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Here. I started a thread for you guys.

Can we please leave the Training Camp Updates thread for actual training camp updates now?

Thanks.

GP already started this thread about Jacoby:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83818

but that conversation keeps bleeding into the training camp thread.

Ole Miss Texan
08-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Jacoby drops passes.
Kareem falls down.
McNair is cheap.
Gary sucks.
Schaub has a noodle arm.
Wade is 'nice'.
Cushing likes juice.
Mario can't pass rush.
Rick is terrible.
Myers is a rag doll.
Walter and Watt apparently have an s on the end of their name.

Did I miss anything? And why the heck am I still a Texans fan?


:thisbig:

GP
08-10-2011, 03:22 PM
Jacoby drops passes.
Kareem falls down.
McNair is cheap.
Gary sucks.
Schaub has a noodle arm.
Wade is 'nice'.
Cushing likes juice.
Mario can't pass rush.
Rick is terrible.
Myers is a rag doll.
Walter and Watt apparently have an s on the end of their name.

Did I miss anything? And why the heck am I still a Texans fan?


:thisbig:

LOL! That's a great list. Nicely done.

If people would attack the JJ Drops Passes schtick like they hammer the McNair Is Cheap schtick, I'd be pleased.

Lots of stereotypes in that list. I like it. :chili:

GP
08-10-2011, 03:25 PM
Here. I started a thread for you guys.

Can we please leave the Training Camp Updates thread for actual training camp updates now?

Thanks.

It's connected. If he's "dropping passes" at this year's training camp, and it gets mentioned in the training camp thread...then expect somebody somewhere to come in and mention that JJ isn't the only guy dropping passes at camp.

Scroll bar is your friend. Just zip past it and find what you want. Do you go complain to the other 48 people in your twitter feed that are clogging up your NFL tweets right now? "Could you please stop? I'm just focusing on football stuff right now. Thanks!" Just skip it. Freedom of choice and all that jazz.

Man, we need some actual football to get started. Everybody's on edge.

Kimmy
08-10-2011, 06:15 PM
Jacoby drops passes.
Kareem falls down.
McNair is cheap.
Gary sucks.
Schaub has a noodle arm.
Wade is 'nice'.
Cushing likes juice.
Mario can't pass rush.
Rick is terrible.
Myers is a rag doll.
Walter and Watt apparently have an s on the end of their name.

Did I miss anything? And why the heck am I still a Texans fan?


:thisbig:

Must spread rep!

Kimmy
08-10-2011, 06:17 PM
It's connected. If he's "dropping passes" at this year's training camp, and it gets mentioned in the training camp thread...then expect somebody somewhere to come in and mention that JJ isn't the only guy dropping passes at camp.

Scroll bar is your friend. Just zip past it and find what you want. Do you go complain to the other 48 people in your twitter feed that are clogging up your NFL tweets right now? "Could you please stop? I'm just focusing on football stuff right now. Thanks!" Just skip it. Freedom of choice and all that jazz.

Man, we need some actual football to get started. Everybody's on edge.


I laughed at the whole part - but the bolded part might make a lot of people JUMP once the games start :fingergun:

ObsiWan
08-11-2011, 01:28 AM
Jacoby drops passes.
Kareem falls down.
McNair is cheap.
Gary sucks.
Schaub has a noodle arm.
Wade is 'nice'.
Cushing likes juice.
Mario can't pass rush.
Rick is terrible.
Myers is a rag doll.
Walter and Watt apparently have an s on the end of their name.

Did I miss anything? And why the heck am I still a Texans fan?


:thisbig:
here's a couple more...

This team lacks killer instincts/is soft
The national media hates us
The Houston fanbase is content with mediocrity

SteveSlaton20
08-11-2011, 03:25 AM
um, of course JJ is better than DA. DA is just more a reliable WR, and usually only play when there's a 4-5 WR Set, while JJ plays slot/#2 is a big risk big reward type of player and very explosive. I don't think you can compare the two. Two completely different WR's.

IF we did cut JJ, we could've gotten a better player in Braylon Edwards.

and this site is better than the site you guys are using

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/23/drop-percentage/

Drop Percentage for all receivers who had at least 50 catchable balls thrown their way (catchable balls determined by just adding together the number of receptions and drops).

Andre was #15 for the least drop percentage while JJ was #43, which is top 15 for the most drop percentage.

thunderkyss
08-11-2011, 08:43 AM
2. I stand by the FACT that just because they're called Wide Recievers doesn't mean they are asked to do the same thing. Nobody is saying Anderson is better than Jacoby. But the two play vastly different positions even though they're both dubbed "WR". It's like saying LB. The weakside, middle and strongside linebacker positions are all asked to do different things on the field just as the Split End, Flanker and Slot receivers are with the WR grouping. Anderson's skillset is best suited for staying closer to the L.O.S. and that's how he was used, he wasn't asked to go downfield, that's what Jacoby is better. Just by virtue of their "sub-position" within the WR group, Jacoby is more likely to have a higher Yards Per Catch average than Anderson. DA's position is a highly valuable one and can be a QBs best friend. I'm not saying DA is irreplaceable, I think the position is.... and I have really high hopes for Jeff Maehl. I really hope he has a good camps and gets a shot this year.


With this in mind, If Anderson is in the slot & Andre motions inside.... if I'm a defense, this is easy to adjust to. Big slow LB/Safety, stay with the little guy... CB stay up top & cover the deep route.

If it's JJ in the slot & Andre motions inside.... now we got trouble.

Just imagine that Jacoby turns into Andre's Reggie Wayne & Maehl alternates with KDub in the slot. To me, that should be where we are heading, that is dangerous....


& it doesn't matter to me if Maehl takes the #2WR role & Jacoby spends the rest of his career alternating in & out of the slot.

If we get two bad-asses on the outside & mix & match the third & 4th receiver we'll be unstoppable.

Ole Miss Texan
08-11-2011, 10:31 AM
With this in mind, If Anderson is in the slot & Andre motions inside.... if I'm a defense, this is easy to adjust to. Big slow LB/Safety, stay with the little guy... CB stay up top & cover the deep route.

If it's JJ in the slot & Andre motions inside.... now we got trouble.

Just imagine that Jacoby turns into Andre's Reggie Wayne & Maehl alternates with KDub in the slot. To me, that should be where we are heading, that is dangerous....


& it doesn't matter to me if Maehl takes the #2WR role & Jacoby spends the rest of his career alternating in & out of the slot.

If we get two bad-asses on the outside & mix & match the third & 4th receiver we'll be unstoppable.
First off, I really do like Jacoby and hope this is the year he takes that giant leap to being a professional. He's frustrated me for so long but he's so dangerous (in a good way) and is very valuable to this team.

Now, I'm really glad you brought up what you did. I also liked Anderson a lot, but know he wasn't really a big threat to take it to the house. Maehl on the other hand is. I was a big fan of even drafting him this year and surprised he didn't get drafted. I think he can easily replace DA in his specific role but like you said, he's much more of a deep threat than DA. I love this pick up, he can take a 5 yard slant and turn it into a 50 yard TD or he can go deep and catch a bomb. Jacoby, Walter, Maehl can create the mismatches you mentioned where DA really couldn't be as effective in that regard.

I love our WR grouping right now with AJ, JJ, KW + the young guys of Dickerson, Maehl, Toliver, etc. Daniels will get as many receptions as most receivers too. We were already a good passing team, I think we just got even better this offseason.

TheCD
08-11-2011, 05:17 PM
I love this pick up, he can take a 5 yard slant and turn it into a 50 yard TD or he can go deep and catch a bomb.

Did you forget our QB is the kind of the 30-40 yard comeback?

Heh...just wanted to give you a little good-natured ribbing there.:kitten:

michaelm
08-11-2011, 06:07 PM
Did you forget our QB is the kind of the 30-40 yard comeback?

Heh...just wanted to give you a little good-natured ribbing there.:kitten:

Holy crap, I'd love it if Schaub hit 30-40 yard comebacks all the time. I'd take it.