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View Full Version : Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?


EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:17 PM
I have been thinking. Troy Nolan played pretty well for us at safety last season, now that we also have manning wouldnt it seem to make more sense to leave Quinn at CB along with Joseph and have Nolan and Manning at Safety.

I like J. Allen and think he will be our #2 CB but i hear a lot of negativity from poster on here about him. And i just dont think K. Jac is ready/has what it takes. So was curious if moving him to safety since he has been our best CB since D-Rob left is a smart move ?

badboy
08-04-2011, 05:21 PM
I think it is the correct move. He is a good #2 Cb but I think he will be even better as a safety in this defense. He will make whoever is #2 CB better. As Manning is better, I would not be surprised to see Quin behind Joseph and Manning behind #2 corner.

The Pencil Neck
08-04-2011, 05:21 PM
I have been thinking. Troy Nolan played pretty well for us at safety last season, now that we also have manning wouldnt it seem to make more sense to leave Quinn at CB along with Joseph and have Nolan and Manning at Safety.

I like J. Allen and think he will be our #2 CB but i hear a lot of negativity from poster on here about him. And i just dont think is ready/has what it takes. So was curious if moving him to safety since he has been our best CB since D-Rob left is a smart move ?

When he came out, a lot of people (including Lance Z) assumed they'd be moving him to safety because they thought that would be his natural position.

I don't think that Troy Nolan played "pretty well" for us last year. I think he actually played pretty poorly. And that was tough for me to say because I had high hopes for Nolan and when Eugene Wilson got injured, my reaction was that it would be good because it would give Nolan his chance to get on the field in a game situation and show what he can do. (He's more of a gamer than a practice player.) But he didn't step up. He's a big reason our secondary was so bad last year.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:23 PM
When he came out, a lot of people (including Lance Z) assumed they'd be moving him to safety because they thought that would be his natural position.

I don't think that Troy Nolan played "pretty well" for us last year. I think he actually played pretty poorly. And that was tough for me to say because I had high hopes for Nolan and when Eugene Wilson got injured, my reaction was that it would be good because it would give Nolan his chance to get on the field in a game situation and show what he can do. (He's more of a gamer than a practice player.) But he didn't step up. He's a big reason our secondary was so bad last year.

hmmm from what i saw last season he played pretty well. i think all the skill is there, the speed, toughness, the want to. He has descent coverage skills imo.

b0ng
08-04-2011, 05:23 PM
I don't think that Troy Nolan played "pretty well" for us last year. I think he actually played pretty poorly. And that was tough for me to say because I had high hopes for Nolan and when Eugene Wilson got injured, my reaction was that it would be good because it would give Nolan his chance to get on the field in a game situation and show what he can do. (He's more of a gamer than a practice player.) But he didn't step up. He's a big reason our secondary was so bad last year.

Agree. Troy Nolan was not any better as a safety than the crap we trotted out there most games. Having my druthers, you are looking at Quinn and Manning at safety with Joseph and the best of the rest at CB.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 05:26 PM
Not if Kareem Jackson keeps falling down ..... and giving up big plays to practice squad guy's.


I'd almost prefer to see Quin line up as the second corner but with K Jax being first round pick , he's gonna be given a whole lot more opportunity than he deserves to start.

And then .... is Nolan the best guy for the job should Quin stay at CB ? If he couldnt beat out Pollard and Wilson last season .... that doesnt speak well for him starting this season.

BTW its Quin with One N.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:28 PM
:kubepalm: yeah i need to become a sports writer with all my knowledge of how players names are spelled.

It appeared to me last season that Nolan had beaten out wilson, i think they were still rotating them quite a bit cause we sucked in all phases but i saw him get a lot more playing time as the season went on.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 05:29 PM
hmmm from what i saw last season he played pretty well. i think all the skill is there, the speed, toughness, the want to. He has descent coverage skills imo.

No one in the Texans secondary played "Pretty Well" last season ..... every last one of them sucked more than a $20 whore....

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:30 PM
No one in the Texans secondary played "Pretty Well" last season ..... every last one of them sucked more than a $20 whore....

i work in the oilfield 20$ can get ya some aight stuff ;)

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 05:32 PM
i work in the oilfield 20$ can get ya some aight stuff ;)

5 minutes later she's done with you and on to the next one ..... :kitten:


As for Nolan getting more PT , sure he did. Because they had no one else to throw back there .... when Wilson went down.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:34 PM
5 minutes later she's done with you and on to the next one ..... :kitten:


As for Nolan getting more PT , sure he did. Because they had no one else to throw back there .... when Wilson went down.

:doot: dont give me to much credit

michaelm
08-04-2011, 05:36 PM
I think it is the correct move. He is a good #2 Cb but I think he will be even better as a safety in this defense. He will make whoever is #2 CB better. As Manning is better, I would not be surprised to see Quin behind Joseph and Manning behind #2 corner.

Ditto, that's my thinking as well.

b0ng
08-04-2011, 05:44 PM
It appeared to me last season that Nolan had beaten out wilson, i think they were still rotating them quite a bit cause we sucked in all phases but i saw him get a lot more playing time as the season went on.

He got more playing time and he really did not much to show that he was any better than the washed up zombie of eugene wilson unfortunately. I was really excited by what Nolan did in one game (I forget which game it was, but it seemed like it was earlier in the season), and the more he played the more he was exploited.

Rey
08-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Not if Kareem Jackson keeps falling down ..... and giving up big plays to practice squad guy's.


I'd almost prefer to see Quin line up as the second corner but with K Jax being first round pick , he's gonna be given a whole lot more opportunity than he deserves to start.

And then .... is Nolan the best guy for the job should Quin stay at CB ? If he couldnt beat out Pollard and Wilson last season .... that doesnt speak well for him starting this season.

BTW its Quin with One N.

Nolan started taking time away from the starting safeties last season. He played a little as strong and a little free. Even when Wilson was healthy enough to play, Nolan still took a lot of his snaps.

ATXtexanfan
08-04-2011, 05:56 PM
quinn to safety good idea. jackson starting week one, bad idea. jackson has to be rebuilt from the ground up

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 05:57 PM
Nolan started taking time away from the starting safeties last season. He played a little as strong and a little free. Even when Wilson was healthy enough to play, Nolan still took a lot of his snaps.

thats what i was thinking

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 05:57 PM
Nolan started taking time away from the starting safeties last season. He played a little as strong and a little free. Even when Wilson was healthy enough to play, Nolan still took a lot of his snaps.

That said more about Pollard & Wilson than Nolan.


Nolan looked good in the preseason, against 2s & 3s.

When he got out there with the real deal, he looked like Wilson & Pollard.

Rey
08-04-2011, 06:08 PM
That said more about Pollard & Wilson than Nolan.


Nolan looked good in the preseason, against 2s & 3s.

When he got out there with the real deal, he looked like Wilson & Pollard.

Actually he had a good game against the raiders. I thought that for essentially being a rookie he did an ok job. He wasn't a world beater, but he did ok.

And for the record I don't think our safeties were as bad as they were made out to be. Wilson had been ok in the years he was here before the past one, and Bernard was an impact player in his first year here.

I think that last years defense was just Clusterfu&@. Kareem Jackson isn't the only player who was affected by poor coaching.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:17 PM
Troy Nolan did not play well for the Texans last year. Any situation in which he is starting for us is not good. He is a liability plain and simple.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 06:18 PM
quinn to safety good idea. jackson starting week one, bad idea. jackson has to be rebuilt from the ground up

^^This^^

Yesterday Jacskon gets beaten on a double move by an UDFA , today beaten by a practice squad guy .... This isnt good news.


I just wonder who would get the nod at CB2 if its not Jackson .... is it Allen ? or one of the rookies ?!


I get the feling that Jackson will get the starting nod unless one of those others really shows well and he flat out fails. Someone is gonna have to take that job from him convincingly.

That said more about Pollard & Wilson than Nolan.


Nolan looked good in the preseason, against 2s & 3s.

When he got out there with the real deal, he looked like Wilson & Pollard.

Yep .... It didn tmatter who they had back there , they all looked the same to me accept the name and number on the jersey.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 06:20 PM
So some of you say K. Jac was a rookie he deserves another shot, so whats so different about Nolan. His first season of true playing time and i can tell you he looked 50% better than K. Jac, oh well i like it with Quin and Manning then Joseph and Allen

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 06:21 PM
^^This^^

Yesterday Jacskon gets beaten on a double move by an UDFA , today beaten by a practice squad guy .... This isnt good news.


I just wonder who would get the nod at CB2 if its not Jackson .... is it Allen ? or one of the rookies ?!


I get the feling that Jackson will get the starting nod unless one of those others really shows well and he flat out fails. Someone is gonna have to take that job from him convincingly.



Yep .... It didn tmatter who they had back there , they all looked the same to me accept the name and number on the jersey.

Allen did pick off Schaub today ;)

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:24 PM
So some of you say K. Jac was a rookie he deserves another shot, so whats so different about Nolan. His first season of true playing time and i can tell you he looked 50% better than K. Jac, oh well i like it with Quin and Manning then Joseph and Allen

The difference, IMO, is that KJ's problem is technique while Nolan's main problem is horrible instincts.

At safety, you cannot start if you have poor instincts, angles, or spacial awareness. Nolan struggles with all three, significantly.

KJ sounds like he needs some serious coaching. His technique is poor enough to not allow him to utilize his athletic ability. That can be fixed, can be coached.

Poor instincts cannot be coached.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:25 PM
The difference, IMO, is that KJ's problem is technique while Nolan's main problem is horrible instincts.

At safety, you cannot start if you have poor instincts, angles, or spacial awareness. Nolan struggles with all three, significantly.

KJ sounds like he needs some serious coaching. His technique is poor enough to not allow him to utilize his athletic ability. That can be fixed, can be coached.

Poor instincts cannot be coached.


Double post.

Rey
08-04-2011, 06:27 PM
The difference, IMO, is that KJ's problem is technique while Nolan's main problem is horrible instincts.

At safety, you cannot start if you have poor instincts, angles, or spacial awareness. Nolan struggles with all three, significantly.

KJ sounds like he needs some serious coaching. His technique is poor enough to not allow him to utilize his athletic ability. That can be sized, can be coached.

Poor instincts cannot be coached.

Nolans instincts are fine.

Anyways if he struggled with all that and he still looked better than kj, then what does that say about kj?

I don't understand this thought process that kj is one of the only players that stand to improve with better coaching.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 06:27 PM
The difference, IMO, is that KJ's problem is technique while Nolan's main problem is horrible instincts.

At safety, you cannot start if you have poor instincts, angles, or spacial awareness. Nolan struggles with all three, significantly.

KJ sounds like he needs some serious coaching. His technique is poor enough to not allow him to utilize his athletic ability. That can be fixed, can be coached.

Poor instincts cannot be coached.

i dunno Nolan had what 3 ints, and that last one of the season looked pretty good. He also recorded a sack. Seemed to me he was always in position to make a play.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 06:30 PM
The difference, IMO, is that KJ's problem is technique while Nolan's main problem is horrible instincts.

At safety, you cannot start if you have poor instincts, angles, or spacial awareness. Nolan struggles with all three, significantly.

KJ sounds like he needs some serious coaching. His technique is poor enough to not allow him to utilize his athletic ability. That can be fixed, can be coached.

Poor instincts cannot be coached.

Technique is a part of KJ's problems .... but a lack of straight line speed just compounds it.

I think he's a nickle guy at best .... but thats just my opinion.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:31 PM
i dunno Nolan had what 3 ints, and that last one of the season looked pretty good. He also recorded a sack. Seemed to me he was always in position to make a play.

Agree to disagree again I suppose. Positioning is Nolan's biggest weakness. Poor positioning resulting from poor instincts, angles, and spacial recognition.

Nolan was consistently picked on last year. On quite a few occasions, Nolan ended up behind the corner when playing deep zone. Many times he overran ball carriers along the sidelines, or misread the trajectory of the ball.

TEXANRED
08-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Those are our options at CB? :kubepalm: It's going to be a really long year.

Joseph is the only solid option we have. Quin is decent, a #3 (our best last year).

The front 7 better bring it.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Technique is a part of KJ's problems .... but a lack of straight line speed just compounds it.

I think he's a nickle guy at best .... but thats just my opinion.

Who knows. Im not a huge fan of Jackson but he's more valuable than both Allen and Nolan IMO.

There are alot of successful corners with comparable athletic ability to Jackson. They are successful due to technique. KJ will have to be one of those guys that CANNOT afford to take a misstep. He needs to really work on his technique.



I don't understand this thought process that kj is one of the only players that stand to improve with better coaching.

That's not what is being stated.

Some things can be coached, some things cannot. Technique is an issue that can be fixed through coaching. Poor instincts cannot be fixed, only dimmed with athletic ability. If someone takes bad angles consistently, it is naive to think that it will change. Angles taken to ball carriers come from instincts. Spacial awareness comes from instincts. It boils down to what can be coached and what cannot be coached.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 06:51 PM
Who knows. Im not a huge fan of Jackson but he's more valuable than both Allen and Nolan IMO.

There are alot of successful corners with comparable athletic ability to Jackson. They are successful due to technique. KJ will have to be one of those guys that CANNOT afford to take a misstep. He needs to really work on his technique.



That's not what is being stated.

Some things can be coached, some things cannot. Technique is an issue that can be fixed through coaching. Poor instincts cannot be fixed, only dimmed with athletic ability. If someone takes bad angles consistently, it is naive to think that it will change. Angles taken to ball carriers come from instincts. Spacial awareness comes from instincts. It boils down to what can be coached and what cannot be coached.

what is this based on ??? If we go off of last season not true, J. Allen outplayed K. Jac in every aspect last season. Would rather have last years allen on the field than last years K. Jac.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 06:57 PM
what is this based on ??? If we go off of last season not true, J. Allen outplayed K. Jac in every aspect last season. Would rather have last years allen on the field than last years K. Jac.

Why do you keep asking this question? It's based on what I saw and my opinion. That is what it is always based on. Who is good and who is not is, for the most part, opinion. I don't understand the use of this question.

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 07:00 PM
And for the record I don't think our safeties were as bad as they were made out to be. Wilson had been ok in the years he was here before the past one, and Bernard was an impact player in his first year here.

I think that last years defense was just Clusterfu&@...

...poor coaching.

Agreed.

I've been saying in 2009, they let the guys do what they were brought here to do. In 2010 they tried to cover their weaknesses instead of play to their strengths.

Hopefully Wade won't be that foolish. I thought we were a talented squad, on both sides of the ball in 2010. After the draft & the last week.. even more so.

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Troy Nolan did not play well for the Texans last year. Any situation in which he is starting for us is not good. He is a liability plain and simple.

He was basically a red-shirted 7th round pick.

We don't know how good he's going to be.

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 07:04 PM
Nolans instincts are fine.

Anyways if he struggled with all that and he still looked better than kj, then what does that say about kj?

I don't understand this thought process that kj is one of the only players that stand to improve with better coaching.

They really need to let us rep people more frequently.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 07:04 PM
He was basically a red-shirted 7th round pick.

We don't know how good he's going to be.

I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.

Rey
08-04-2011, 07:08 PM
Some things can be coached, some things cannot. Technique is an issue that can be fixed through coaching. Poor instincts cannot be fixed, only dimmed with athletic ability. If someone takes bad angles consistently, it is naive to think that it will change. Angles taken to ball carriers come from instincts. Spacial awareness comes from instincts. It boils down to what can be coached and what cannot be coached.

Well that wasn't even the main part of my post. I disagree that a player with poor instincts makes some of the plays he did last year.

For the limited time he played, he made more plays than Jackson did all year. If his instincts are poor then Jacksons are are none.

And angles taken on ball carriers is something that is coached when a player consistent takes bad angles (which I don't know if Nolan did or didn't do). As a lb and db your are coached on your angles on the field and definitely in the film room. That statement you made is just flat out incorrect.

Rey
08-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Actually d linemen are coached on angles as well. Angles are constantly being talked about and coached.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 07:13 PM
For the limited time he played, he made more plays than Jackson did all year. If his instincts are poor then Jacksons are are none.

Disagree. What plays? Nolan had 3 INTs, Jackson had 2 INTs.

And angles taken on ball carriers is something that is coached when a player consistent takes bad angles (which I don't know if Nolan did or didn't do). As a lb and db your are coached on your angles on the field and definitely in the film room. That statement you made is just flat out incorrect.

Nolan consistently took poor angles. Obviously, a coach tries to improve every aspect, but not every aspect is easily improved. If a guy doesn't understand basic angles and is not able to calculate and implement them on the spot he shouldn't be playing in the NFL.

I'm not saying every player takes perfect angles every time, but when a guy is taking poor angles almost every play there is a significant problem that will not be easily fixed, if ever.

Actually d linemen are coached on angles as well. Angles are constantly being talked about and coached.

Everything is coached.

If your a manager, and your subordinate yells at a customer, you tell him not to do it. However, if he doesn't already understand not to do that then there is a significant problem.

Same goes for football. If a guy takes bad angles consistently, you will tell him how to fix it. After awhile, you realize it isn't something you can really coach out of the guy.

It's the same concept.

Instincts are natural. They cannot be completely changed through coaching. Technique can be completely changed through coaching.

Edit:

To add to this, angles rely on instincts. You cannot coach every angle that needs to be taken. Eventually, I guy needs to have the instincts to take an angle on the fly. If its something that is always harped on by coaches and is consistently being botched, then there is a serious problem.

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 07:16 PM
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts...


Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.

I'm not a one or the other kind of guy. I want both to succeed. We've got to put 53 men on the roster a few weeks from now. I'd like to think they all have potential.

To say one of the 11 guys that sucked on our defense last year is more coachable than another is splitting hairs.

If the question is, do I think we would be better playing Nolan at Safety or Jackson at Corner, I'm going with Jackson at corner.

Now my Safety depth chart looks like:
Manning, Quin, Nolan, Keo

Instead of :
Manning, Nolan, Keo, Barber...

CB:
Joseph, Quin, Jackson, Harris, McMannis, Carmichael, McCain

is only slightly better than

Joseph, Jackson, Harris, McMannis, Carmichael

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 07:22 PM
To say one of the 11 guys that sucked on our defense last year is more coachable than another is splitting hairs.

I don't agree with that at all.

As I was saying previously, certain aspects to someone's game are easier to coach than others. If you can identify which players struggle with aspects to their game that are more easily coached than others, then you can identify who is more coachable.

Rey
08-04-2011, 07:31 PM
Disagree. What plays? Nolan had 3 INTs, Jackson had 2 INTs.



Nolan consistently took poor angles. Obviously, a coach tries to improve every aspect, but not every aspect is easily improved. If a guy doesn't understand basic angles and is not able to calculate and implement them on the spot he shouldn't be playing in the NFL.

I'm not saying every player takes perfect angles every time, but when a guy is taking poor angles almost every play there is a significant problem that will not be easily fixed, if ever.



Everything is coached.

If your a manager, and your subordinate yells at a customer, you tell him not to do it. However, if he doesn't already understand not to do that then there is a significant problem.

Same goes for football. If a guy takes bad angles consistently, you will tell him how to fix it. After awhile, you realize it isn't something you can really coach out of the guy.

It's the same concept.

Instincts are natural. They cannot be completely changed through coaching. Technique can be completely changed through coaching.

Edit:

To add to this, angles rely on instincts. You cannot coach every angle that needs to be taken. Eventually, I guy needs to have the instincts to take an angle on the fly. If its something that is always harped on by coaches and is consistently being botched, then there is a serious problem.

That's not what you said initially. You said it can't be coached and that is not true.

And Nolan didn't play nearly the snaps Jackson did. Not sure how you are overlooking that glaring fact when analyzing their stats.

TexansSeminole
08-04-2011, 07:35 PM
That's not what you said initially. You said it can't be coached and that is not true.

And Nolan didn't play nearly the snaps Jackson did. Not sure how you are overlooking that glaring fact when analyzing their stats.

I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.

76Texan
08-04-2011, 07:38 PM
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.

I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 07:39 PM
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.

Just my opinion i never even saw him run stride for stride with a WR 15 yards down the field he was 5 yards behind. he did get lucky and the qb under threw and the WR had to slow down to catch the ball and K. Jac caught up. And i only saw him Jump a route one time the whole season. Good instincts would be knowing a WR is doing a double move on him and not fall.

steelbtexan
08-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Technique is a part of KJ's problems .... but a lack of straight line speed just compounds it.

I think he's a nickle guy at best .... but thats just my opinion.

Agreed

Allen hopefully will start out the season at CB2. But how long will it be before Harris takes over for Allen?

I'm really high on Harris, He's no speed demon and may lack size. But he has instincts that KJ can only dream of having. How is Harris looking this early in camp?

Rey
08-04-2011, 07:42 PM
I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.

I understand what you're saying but angles are a part of technique. They even have a drill for it. It's called pursuit drills. Those aren't just for endurance.

I just can't imagine that Nolan made it to the NFL and not now how to take good angles on the ball carrier.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 07:43 PM
Agreed

Allen hopefully will start out the season at CB2. But how long will it be before Harris takes over for Allen?

I'm really high on Harris, He's no speed demon and may lack size. But he has instincts that KJ can only dream of having. How is Harris looking this early in camp?

i think we all thought K. Jac had instincts coming out of college, the NFL is a whole new ball game though. ask Jackson. So i am weary of another rookie starting, i mean sure he may be great just dont want to see a repeat of last season.

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 08:02 PM
I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.

In this case, we're talking about a redshirted 7th round pick playing with limited snaps.

It is very possible that he consistently took bad angles because he's yet to account for NFL Speed.

That can be learned/taught.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 08:10 PM
i think we all thought K. Jac had instincts coming out of college, the NFL is a whole new ball game though. ask Jackson. So i am weary of another rookie starting, i mean sure he may be great just dont want to see a repeat of last season.

Lots of us were not happy with KJ coming out of the draft ..... Many , myself included wanted Kyle Wilson (who went to the Jets at 29). He has much better speed than Jackson .... speed cant be taught.

Wilson didnt put up great numbers last season (16 tackles , 0 INT 0 FF) but that has more to do with the guy's in front of him than anything else.

I'd swap Jackson for Wilson right now .... :pissed:

thunderkyss
08-04-2011, 08:16 PM
Lots of us were not happy with KJ coming out of the draft ..... Many , myself included wanted Kyle Wilson (who went to the Jets at 29). He has much better speed than Jackson .... speed cant be taught.

Wilson didnt put up great numbers last season (16 tackles , 0 INT 0 FF) but that has more to do with the guy's in front of him than anything else.

I'd swap Jackson for Wilson right now .... :pissed:

With all his speed, Wilson was still getting burnt on the regular.

Rex thinks so much of Wilson that he shoved him even further down the depth chart & tried to shove him even farther.

Asomugha, Revis, Cromartie, Wilson

He's not even the nickle on that team.

Had you said McCourty I could understand. But Wilson??

If you left it at draft time, I could understand. But now?

Rey
08-04-2011, 08:26 PM
I didn't want Kyle wilson. He did not look like a good player to me. I still haven't seen any of kj's film from college.

I can't remember what I didn't like about Wilson when I watched him, I just remember thinking - do not want.

I actually like Mccourty out of the three. Dude was a baller. He reminds me a little bit of jo.

But aso is with the eagles.

Corrosion
08-04-2011, 08:43 PM
With all his speed, Wilson was still getting burnt on the regular.

Rex thinks so much of Wilson that he shoved him even further down the depth chart & tried to shove him even farther.

Asomugha, Revis, Cromartie, Wilson

He's not even the nickle on that team.

With Aso , Revis and Cromartie .... Wilson isnt even the nickle , I agree. I think their attepts to sign Aso are more a credit to his being the best at his position (debatable) rather than Wislon not being suitable for a 3rd option at CB.

When you have an opportunity to sign a player like Aso , you give it your best effort.

Yeah , Wilson had been beaten a few times last year too ... but he didnt fall down on a regular basis. :heh:





Had you said McCourty I could understand. But Wilson??

If you left it at draft time, I could understand. But now?

I was just repeating what I and many others said pre draft last season.(even if I/we were off the mark)

Today , I'd take McCourty over either Wilson or Jackson.

Taking Wilson over Jackson now .... just says how bad Jackson has been in the past and his performance thus far in camp. Practice squad and UDFA's are doing the same things to him in practice that NFL recievers did last season.

:wadepalm:

DocBar
08-04-2011, 09:37 PM
My starting secondary would have JoJo and whoever wins at CB and Manning and Quin at S. Quin just plays like a safety and he's on record as saying it feels natural for him. DB coach Joseph is on record saying it's his natural position.
IMO, Nolan just looked lost last season, He seems to have good instincts for the ball, but seems clueless in coverage. He did his best as a centerfielder where he could keep everything in front of him. Unfortunately, that's been a triat of Texans DB's for many years. I miss Glenn and Coleman. As for his 3 INT's, he screwed up at least that many by tipping the ball away from waiting defenders. I like his instincts but question his football IQ.
As of right now, I would have Allen penciled in as my starter and make someone beat him out. I say that with full confidence that if someone beats him out, his initials will not be Kareem Jackson.
I'm more than a little concerned from reports that Allen is practicing some at S. Joseph is on record as saying he can't wait to see what Allen does with a full preseason and regular season at CB and not being forced to switch positions. I think Allen is a very serviceable CB as long as he has talent around him. Houston, we have talent. Now it's up to Allen and he seems to be producing, from practice reports.
KJ should be in the fight for nickel. He needs help. He may or may not end up as a decent CB, but right now, he stinks. Ease up on the young man and let him learn. I was chastized on here today because some kids respomd better to positive reinforcement. Maybe KJ needs the positive reinforcement of competing against our 3-4 WR's or 5-6's WR or practice squad WR's. Whatever the case, he is looking more and more like a case that needs to be brought along a little slower.
Harris and Roc seem to be doing just fine and should definitely be in the fight for nickel. I wouldn't be surprised to see Harris the nickel and Roc the dime midway through the season.
Just my :twocents:

leebigeztx
08-04-2011, 09:50 PM
I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?

DocBar
08-04-2011, 09:53 PM
I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?Salary cap comes to mind and I disagree with your assessment of Quin at CB. I think he's definitely a serviceable CB, but would make a much better S. If Gholston was all that, why is he still looking for a job?

Fico
08-04-2011, 10:19 PM
I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots.

I disagree here. Nolan instincts are the only reason he is in the NFL. He is always around the ball and has been a turnover machine throughout college.... and for our poor standards he performed pretty well in that regard.

The fact that he ran 4.7 and is still in position to make the plays he has is proof his instincts are very good.

His lack of athleticism, the fact that he essentially was a rookie, and the fact that his supporting cast sucked horribly are why he did not perform consistently.

Having said all that he should be the #3 safety for us. If Quinn is the answer at one safety spot then we play Allen at the other corner.

K.Jackson has not really showed anything that warrants a starting job. He should be in the nickel where he performed much better last year.

Joseph
Allen
Quinn
Manning

K.Jack
B.Harris

That should be your starting 4, nickel and dime packages.

DocBar
08-04-2011, 10:36 PM
I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots.And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????
:faildetector::lol:

EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.

Rey
08-04-2011, 10:56 PM
Quinn to safety will be an excellent move IMO.

He's a good tackler for a db and he is a smart player.

He has commented about how the game has gotten tremendously slower and how much better he can read plays from the safety position.

I can't wait to see what it looks like.

EllisUnit
08-04-2011, 10:59 PM
And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????
:faildetector::lol:

EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.

:bravo:

leebigeztx
08-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Salary cap comes to mind and I disagree with your assessment of Quin at CB. I think he's definitely a serviceable CB, but would make a much better S. If Gholston was all that, why is he still looking for a job?

Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.

Rey
08-04-2011, 11:15 PM
Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.

That wasn't me you quoted, but I think Quinn will be a good safety because he will be able to keep the action in front if him.

He will be able to read plays and come down and react. Quinn isn't the most physically gifted db, and corners need a lot more athleticism and agility than safeties.

He's not afraid if contact, hes smart, and he's become a vocal leader in the secondary. Safeties are the qb of the secondary because they can see more and they can more easily communicate with everyone else.

I just think that is a good role for him. It fits him well IMO.

DocBar
08-04-2011, 11:36 PM
Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.Quin has shown excellent range, ability to read the QB and recognize routes and has shown that he's a big hitter. As 76Texan has illustrated, much of our secondary woes were from poor safety play. Quin is an immediate upgrade over any S on our roster not named Manning, and might be better at certain aspects than Manning. Looking at our 2011 roster, we have some decent choices at #2CB and Quin would benefit from practicing at one position and not be asked to multitask. Other than that, I can't imagine why we would consider moving Quin to safety.

76Texan
08-04-2011, 11:59 PM
And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????
:faildetector::lol:

EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.
I can guarantee with you that I have an open mind.
(Any bias is only natural, never to the extreme - when it seems so is only due to fighting fire with fire.)

You know, I had analyzed a few games from last year.
I started with the Colts game in week 1.
Then there was a break due to the draft.
After that, I took on the Jets and Titans games (due to Allen).
Then I had to move on to Wade's defense throughout the years.

Not until lately that I learned to post screen shots.

Then came the UDFA and the FA signings.
Even as I can tell you that I watch football like almost 360 days out of the year (for the last four years), there was just not enough time for one person.

I was able (semi-forced) to have some time away from "real" work for over two years. I get up watching football and go to sleep watching football (earphones on.)
I traveled here and there, including Asia, with a portable drive full of football games. Obviously, I watched it (football) during the transcontinental flight.
I watched the Senior Bowl, followed Texanstalk and stuff like that anywhere on the road.
I would take my wife shopping, drop her off at the mall and sit in the parking lot or in a coffehouse like Starbucks and watch football.

When you spend that much time on football, it is not to prove that you're right (if anything, it only proves that you're extremely stupid.)

I had wanted to go back to the Jets game (with Allen on board) now that I can actually show people what I was talking about.

That will be in respond to Fico.
Even though I had analyzed the play in my game analysis posts, the fact was still lost in translation.
(Bryant Gumbel and Dan Diedorff missed it BADLY, what else can I say.)

Nobody even talked about Nolan on that play, because he was too far from it.
Jackson was blamed (by either Gumble or Dierdoff) just because he was closest to the play. Crazy!

I can also see why fans just watching it on the TV screen can come to the same conclusion, easily!

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:05 AM
I can guarantee with you that I have an open mind.
(Any bias is only natural, never to the extreme - when it seems so is only due to fighting fire with fire.)

You know, I had analyzed a few games from last year.
I started with the Colts game in week 1.
Then there was a break due to the draft.
After that, I took on the Jets and Titans games (due to Allen).
Then I had to move on to Wade's defense throughout the years.

Not until lately that I learned to post screen shots.

Then came the UDFA and the FA signings.
Even as I can tell you that I watch football like almost 360 days out of the year (for the last four years), there was just not enough time for one person.

I was able (semi-forced) to have some time away from "real" work for over two years. I get up watching football and go to sleep watching football (earphones on.)
I traveled here and there, including Asia, with a portable drive full of football games. Obviously, I watched it (football) during the transcontinental flight.
I watched the Senior Bowl, followed Texanstalk and stuff like that anywhere on the road.
I would take my wife shopping, drop her off at the mall and sit in the parking lot or in a coffehouse like Starbucks and watch football.

When you spend that much time on football, it is not to prove that you're right (if anything, it only proves that you're extremely stupid.)

I had wanted to go back to the Jets game (with Allen on board) now that I can actually show people what I was talking about.

That will be in respond to Fico.
Even though I had analyzed the play in my game analysis posts, the fact was still lost in translation.
(Bryant Gumbel and Dan Diedorff missed it BADLY, what else can I say.)

Nobody even talked about Nolan on that play, because he was too far from it.
Jackson was blamed (by either Gumble or Dierdoff) just because he was closest to the play. Crazy!

I can also see why fans just watching it on the TV screen can come to the same conclusion, easily!Don't go getting all butthurt. I said I agree with you on KJ and I love reading your breakdowns. You do get a little biased sometimes, but who doesn't. Keep up the good work.

leebigeztx
08-05-2011, 11:17 AM
I still don't think quinn at safety is a good idea. He gave up just as many yard as jackson did, 924 last year. Now I have also said this years ago, pass defense is more than corners play. Now having good corners do help, but as I talked about, 3 level defense is what makes a defense good. If a team is weak or suspect in 1 of those level, they better be expceptional in the other 2. Its easy to use pittsburgh because they have been great for so long on defense. Its also easy to use baltimore because they're similar to pittsburgh. I can use a team in the division who do don't have a great defense overrall, but has a very god pass defense and that's indy.

As much as people bash indy about their defense for getting run on, they have been one of the best defenses in the league in terms of pass td's allowed. Even when we consder points allowed they're pretty good. Now, tbeir defense get a lot of plays because teams can run on them,control the clock, and keep payton off the field, but as I mentioned, pass td allowed is very,very important in a passing league. When I talked about the levels of defense, think about their 3 levels and tell me where they're weak at?

Freeny and mathis on the line, bracket in the middle, and bathea and now bullitt at saftey. Playing that cover 2 shell allowed them to be top of the league in terms of pass td allowed. Freeney and mathis bringing cnsistent pressure. Even when they didn't get sacks, they got knock down,strips, and just plain pressure. On that same string, bracket and the other lbs would close those windows inside the middle of the field off. They squeezed all the inside slants and quick passes which made the qb hold the ball and come of his 1st or 2nd read. Playing off of that was bethea,sanders(when healthy), and the other corners. Sanders when healthy was the dpoy because he could be deep half and then buzz into the box. He had great read and recognition along with great speed. Bethea is that way and that's why he is one of the best safeties in the game. So even with the average corners, they had great safeties, a great pass rush, and their lbs could cover. All this leads up to a top rated pass defense. Which brings me back to quinn. How is quinn going to react to all the action going on infront of him when he didn't even do that good of a job as a corner?

Rey
08-05-2011, 11:27 AM
I still don't think quinn at safety is a good idea. He gave up just as many yard as jackson did, 924 last year. Now I have also said this years ago, pass defense is more than corners play. Now having good corners do help, but as I talked about, 3 level defense is what makes a defense good. If a team is weak or suspect in 1 of those level, they better be expceptional in the other 2. Its easy to use pittsburgh because they have been great for so long on defense. Its also easy to use baltimore because they're similar to pittsburgh. I can use a team in the division who do don't have a great defense overrall, but has a very god pass defense and that's indy.

As much as people bash indy about their defense for getting run on, they have been one of the best defenses in the league in terms of pass td's allowed. Even when we consder points allowed they're pretty good. Now, tbeir defense get a lot of plays because teams can run on them,control the clock, and keep payton off the field, but as I mentioned, pass td allowed is very,very important in a passing league. When I talked about the levels of defense, think about their 3 levels and tell me where they're weak at?

Freeny and mathis on the line, bracket in the middle, and bathea and now bullitt at saftey. Playing that cover 2 shell allowed them to be top of the league in terms of pass td allowed. Freeney and mathis bringing cnsistent pressure. Even when they didn't get sacks, they got knock down,strips, and just plain pressure. On that same string, bracket and the other lbs would close those windows inside the middle of the field off. They squeezed all the inside slants and quick passes which made the qb hold the ball and come of his 1st or 2nd read. Playing off of that was bethea,sanders(when healthy), and the other corners. Sanders when healthy was the dpoy because he could be deep half and then buzz into the box. He had great read and recognition along with great speed. Bethea is that way and that's why he is one of the best safeties in the game. So even with the average corners, they had great safeties, a great pass rush, and their lbs could cover. All this leads up to a top rated pass defense. Which brings me back to quinn. How is quinn going to react to all the action going on infront of him when he didn't even do that good of a job as a corner?

So basically Kareem Jackson good, glover Quinn sucks.

And to your last question, playing corner and safety aren't the same. At corner you need a lot more agility because you will often be manned up and need to run with a cutting, juking, hooking, curling receiver.

As a safety is much more about reading and diagnosing the play as a whole. You are able to read plays and use your mentals a lot more. It also does't require as much agility because the action is in front of you so most of the time you are running in straight lines. But Quinn has better lateral agility and speed than Bernard pollard so if he is putting himself in good position he should be able to react and make plays.

Problem with him is just going to be being in good position. If he can absorb the art of the position and really become immersed in the playbook his slightly above athleticism for the position should do him justice.

Even when he played corner, I think he played well considering how the coaches had them playing. For the most part he played smart. You say he gave up as many yards as Kareem, but he didn't give up the big plays like Jackson did.

badboy
08-05-2011, 11:32 AM
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.Although what you say is true about both players imo, I also think rookies get emotionally clobbered in NFL. Facing best of the best. My expectations of a first rounder much different than a 7th or a UDFA. KJ will remain as too soon to blow up that pick & he can be taught. Nolan because of what we have seen as a minimal cost player. I remember that late season last INT. It brought me off of my seat. I also think you can teach angles & "awareness". Both need to bring it. In my 2012 mock draft, I am leaving corner and safety on the list until I see how some of our DBs perform.

IDEXAN
08-05-2011, 11:40 AM
Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.

b0ng
08-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.

Not really. A coach can easily look at tape of the way a player plays, and say that he might be a better fit at a different position without saying that he thinks that position is more or less important than the position said player is moving to.

During the lockout I thought the move was ill-advised due to time for practice, however due to the new CBA we're not getting much more practice in the offseason than we already are during this one so more power to them.

Rey
08-05-2011, 11:45 AM
Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.

There is more to it than that. It's about getting your best players on the field and putting guys in a position where you believe they can be most successful.

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.

The logic for the move is that Quin is better suited to Safety than CB. He's a good CB but he's expected to be a REALLY good Safety. The logic is to put players into a position for them to be the best they can be and do the best they can do.

When Quin came out of college, LZ and others were projecting him to Safety because that's what his skill set is most suited for. This group of coaches agrees with that assessment.

The Pencil Neck
08-05-2011, 11:49 AM
There is more to it than that. It's about getting your best players on the field and putting guys in a position where you believe they can be most successful.

OK. You wrote this while I was writing mine.

:texflag:

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah

Rey
08-05-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah

Kj looked uncomfortable to me last year. His helmet didn't look like it fit him right. He was always tugging on the bottom of his face mask.

I don't know if it was the coaches changing his style, rookie jitters or what, but I think he just think looked out of whack. Hopefully wade can help fella get his groove back, cuz it's gonna suck if he fails.

michaelm
08-05-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah

I'm still holding out hope that most of the falls taken by our DBs last year were a result of that ridiculous shuffle-step technique that Bush tried to implement.

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Kj looked uncomfortable to me last year. His helmet didn't look like it fit him right. He was always tugging on the bottom of his face mask.

I don't know if it was the coaches changing his style, rookie jitters or what, but I think he just think looked out of whack. Hopefully wade can help fella get his groove back, cuz it's gonna suck if he fails.What's gonna suck is if they fail to yank him if he plays like last season. I'm hoping he only sees the field as a nickel or dime. JMHO, though.

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm still holding out hope that most of the falls taken by our DBs last year were a result of that ridiculous shuffle-step technique that Bush tried to implement.Do you think that him falling down in practice this year (per practice reports) is a hold over from that shuffle technique? That was reportedly junked.

badboy
08-05-2011, 12:14 PM
I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?You do know that Quin was nation's 7th rated FS coming out of college?

michaelm
08-05-2011, 12:21 PM
Do you think that him falling down in practice this year (per practice reports) is a hold over from that shuffle technique? That was reportedly junked.

No, I don't think that at all. I'm hopeful that returning to a technique that has been learned at every step of his football life will be beneficial, though.

I'd also be curious to know how many times KJ has fallen compared to any other player on the team.
KJ is under a microscope, so every slip is front page news.

I haven't heard a peep about any other player falling down. Not One.

BUT, I'm pretty confident that many other players have fallen, but it doesn't get mentioned because the spotlight is not on them regarding falling down.

For all we know, 20 other players on the team have fallen down more than KJ, but you only KJ's falls are being micro-analyzed because that's what people want to hear about.

In the words of The Kinks "give the people what they want, give the people what they want..."

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:24 PM
No, I don't think that at all. I'm hopeful that returning to a technique that has been learned at every step of his football life will be beneficial, though.

I'd also be curious to know how many times KJ has fallen compared to any other player on the team.
KJ is under a microscope, so every slip is front page news.

I haven't heard a peep about any other player falling down. Not One.

BUT, I'm pretty confident that many other players have fallen, but it doesn't get mentioned because the spotlight is not on them regarding falling down.

For all we know, 20 other players on the team have fallen down more than KJ, but you only KJ's falls are being micro-analyzed because that's what people want to hear about.

In the words of The Kinks "give the people what they want, give the people what they want..."It's kind of a given that when a CB falls down, it's going to be glaringly obvious. I haven't heard of Allen falling down, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'll reread some of 76Texan's posts and see if he mentions Allen or either safety falling down.

michaelm
08-05-2011, 12:36 PM
It's kind of a given that when a CB falls down, it's going to be glaringly obvious. I haven't heard of Allen falling down, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'll reread some of 76Texan's posts and see if he mentions Allen or either safety falling down.

I'm thinking about going to an open practice so I can judge with my own eyes, cause they're... you know... so much better than everyone else's.

DocBar
08-05-2011, 12:37 PM
I'm thinking about going to an open practice so I can judge with my own eyes, cause they're... you know... so much better than everyone else's.So true...so true :worldpeace:

Texecutioner
08-05-2011, 12:42 PM
I like Quinn as safety. That seems like a much better position for him. He hits hard and he won't have to cover near as much as he can ball hawk and watch plays develop more. This seems like a much better position for him.

beerlover
08-05-2011, 01:23 PM
e. Johnathan Joseph CB/Brandon Harris CB Glover Quin SS/Danieal Manning FS

they need to move fast & put Kareem in a position to succeed. He has size, skills to transition just as quickly to safety as Quin both are great in run support too. Actually like his hands better which is why he is a more likely fit as a FS yet still would fit the twin free safety concept Wade talks about & with acquisition of Manning he has time to retool his game & still learn a new position. Along with Joseph, rookies Brandon Harris, Roc Carmichael & Jason Allen the corners have a nice mix of raw talent, skills & experience. But we as fans, the coaches etc... would have to a little more patient & I'm not convinced this organization has that luxury to use the former first round pick to jump into safety role as much as a fourth rounder?

b0ng
08-05-2011, 01:28 PM
e. Johnathan Joseph CB/Brandon Harris CB Glover Quin SS/Kareem Jackson FS

they need to move fast & put Kareem in a position to succeed. He has the size, skills to transition just as quickly to safety as Quin. Actually like his hands better which is why he is a more likely fit as a FS yet still would fit the twin free safety concept Wade talks about. Would throw Allen in the mix as well (FS) experience & rookie Shiloh Keo as back-up strong safety. Along with Joseph, rookies Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael who are your more natural, quick twitch, glued to their man cornerbacks Texans secondary could be much improved, but we as fans, the coaches etc... would have to a little more patient & I'm not convinced this organization has that luxury.

I don't know, Jackson doesn't seem like a sure-enough tackler. If we're going with Jax at an S position I'd have to think he'd be a back-up, or battling Quinn, not Manning.

leebigeztx
08-05-2011, 01:38 PM
You do know that Quin was nation's 7th rated FS coming out of college?

Has nothing to do with now.

Rey- again, both were bad. Both guys gave up 942 yds and combined for 11 td given up. The whole notion about safeties don't need to be as agile is bs. In fact, I think with the Y-flex te, safeties are just as important as corners to me. With so many teams spreading teams out in 11 personell, the safety need cb skills. That's why gone are the atwatrer type safeties and in comes the smaller,rangy safeties. Again, look at troy P, ed reed, bob sanders, bethea, mike griffin. Those are very athetic,rangy guys. Those are also 4.3 guys who can get from the deep middle to the sideline or down in the box. Again, coverting a limited skilled cb to safety doesn't mean he will be a good safety.

Rey
08-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Has nothing to do with now.

Rey- again, both were bad. Both guys gave up 942 yds and combined for 11 td given up. The whole notion about safeties don't need to be as agile is bs. In fact, I think with the Y-flex te, safeties are just as important as corners to me. With so many teams spreading teams out in 11 personell, the safety need cb skills. That's why gone are the atwatrer type safeties and in comes the smaller,rangy safeties. Again, look at troy P, ed reed, bob sanders, bethea, mike griffin. Those are very athetic,rangy guys. Those are also 4.3 guys who can get from the deep middle to the sideline or down in the box. Again, coverting a limited skilled cb to safety doesn't mean he will be a good safety.

Some misinformation in there, but I hear you and I understand your pov.

Don't agree with it, but i understand.

redwhiteANDblue
08-05-2011, 01:57 PM
Clip of Jason Allen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy6i1VODBAU&feature=related). He seems in good position against randy pretty much every play but doesn't have the awareness to bat the ball down. If Vance Joseph can teach him to at least use his hands and bat balls down he could be a good corner.

badboy
08-05-2011, 02:01 PM
e. Johnathan Joseph CB/Brandon Harris CB Glover Quin SS/Danieal Manning FS

they need to move fast & put Kareem in a position to succeed. He has size, skills to transition just as quickly to safety as Quin both are great in run support too. Actually like his hands better which is why he is a more likely fit as a FS yet still would fit the twin free safety concept Wade talks about & with acquisition of Manning he has time to retool his game & still learn a new position. Along with Joseph, rookies Brandon Harris, Roc Carmichael & Jason Allen the corners have a nice mix of raw talent, skills & experience. But we as fans, the coaches etc... would have to a little more patient & I'm not convinced this organization has that luxury to use the former first round pick to jump into safety role as much as a fourth rounder?Agree 100%

beerlover
08-05-2011, 02:06 PM
I don't know, Jackson doesn't seem like a sure-enough tackler. If we're going with Jax at an S position I'd have to think he'd be a back-up, or battling Quinn, not Manning.

this is a discussion I'm sure we shall revisit over & over again :worldpeace:

but don't you get a sense that maybe a move needs to be made before its too late? I do tend to think too far outside the box at times, well most times in fact but in this case I want to see Jackson succeed, he is a football player who right now is overwhelmed & has lost his confidence. Maybe the best thing right now is to just sit him on the bench & let him watch awhile, continue to coach him up but not allow him to be placed in a situation where he could cost the team another win. I'm just saying from a talent evaluation standpoint he looks like a nickle or safety prospect to me.

76Texan
08-06-2011, 12:52 PM
It's kind of a given that when a CB falls down, it's going to be glaringly obvious. I haven't heard of Allen falling down, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'll reread some of 76Texan's posts and see if he mentions Allen or either safety falling down.

DBs fall down all the time.
Cromatie, Revis, our safeties, Quin, Allen, all of them (and more than once).

Joseph, for example, fell down 3 times in the 9 Bengals games that I watched.
He gave up 3 TDs.
And a LB saved a TD for him.

Allen gave up a 26-27 yd TD when he fell down (could have been 99 yards for all we know if the opponents were to be on their one-yd line.)
He fell down on another play that I can remember fo sure.
That one could have been a TD also, but the QB had already gone in a different direction.
I will post those screen shots when I have time.
I don't remember whether he fell down more than those two times (in the 7 games he played for us.)

EllisUnit
08-06-2011, 12:58 PM
DBs fall down all the time.
Cromatie, Revis, our safeties, Quin, Allen, all of them (and more than once).

Joseph, for example, fell down 3 times in the 9 Bengals games that I watched.
He gave up 3 TDs.
And a LB saved a TD for him.

Allen gave up a 26-27 yd TD when he fell down (could have been 99 yards for all we know if the opponents were to be on their one-yd line.)
He fell down on another play that I can remember fo sure.
That one could have been a TD also, but the QB had already gone in a different direction.
I will post those screen shots when I have time.
I don't remember whether he fell down more than those two times (in the 7 games he played for us.)

there is a difference between me (other CBs) falling down a few times, and the amount of times an old drunk (Jackson) falls down. why compare ;).

76Texan
08-07-2011, 11:19 PM
there is a difference between me (other CBs) falling down a few times, and the amount of times an old drunk (Jackson) falls down. why compare ;).

How many times did you see Jackson fall down last year?

How many times do you think I saw Allen fall down last year?

I feel up for a friendly wager! :specnatz:

Corrosion
08-08-2011, 06:47 AM
All the reports Ive read - Highlights Ive seen so far .... Jackson has been beaten by rookie UDFA's and guy's who were on last years practice squad. That just doesnt sound good to me ....

Anyone been to the practices and seen anything that would give us reason to believe Jackson is improved over last year ? Will he hold the starting spot based upon the merits of his play or .... his draft status.


Gary if you keep running this guy out there as a starter he's gonna cost you your job.

badboy
08-08-2011, 04:19 PM
By game one I want to feel a lot more confident about CB#2