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rickyb
07-30-2011, 03:56 PM
It's amazing what a couple of key FA moves will do for an organization. Consider our defensive backfield, and the addition of Joseph and Manning.

The Struggles of KJ, Volume/Year 1, are well documented and understood. There is nothing to say that Year 2 will be second verse, same as the first. However, in the event that KJ is unable to assert his right to the CB2 position, the Texans now have option of starting JJ and GQ at CB, and use Manning and Nolen/Keo at safeties. KJ could be the nickel corner and polish his skills.

I am a believer that KJ can succeed. I have seen this too often in real life: talent is pressed into a situation too fast and without the necessary support, only to falter. As best I can infer, KJ is a young man not without confidence, and this does not appear shaken. Let him come into camp with something to prove, and let the Texans put some coaches in front of him who actually know what they are doing. Come to think of it, with KJ having come from a Saban organization, I can see where last year's coaching cast might have left him scratching his head and struggling to find his bearings at the speed-of-the-NFL.

The good news is that now, the Texans have options.

And remember --- Meco and Cush are reunited. Barwin is returning. And Mario will be a stand-up rush backer in a contract year, salivating for sacks to parlay into his first post-rookie contract. Sprinkle in Watt, Mitchell, and Antonio. Add in a returning offensive powerhouse.

Houston, we have lots of reasons to be optimistic. Cautiously, or otherwise.

:fans:

mussop
07-30-2011, 04:00 PM
There is still a lot of questions to be answered on this defense.

The Pencil Neck
07-30-2011, 04:07 PM
The second corner becomes a hotly contested position: KJ, Jason Allen, Brandon Harris, Roc Carmichael.

And like you said, if those guys can't cut the mustard, GQ can slide back into the #2 position and either Nolan or Keo can move into the other safety position.

We've got options now.

I'd still like to sign another CB FA but I'd prefer to direct that money to ILB or NT.

DX-TEX
07-30-2011, 04:09 PM
I wouldnt count out Harris yet. Guy has been working out the past couple years with AJ at the U. Aj is not d backs coach but if anyone can show a young CB how the best WR plays it would give him a leg up.

cland
07-30-2011, 04:17 PM
2nd corner should be an open competition, with Glover Quinn as an emergency fallback. If for no other reason, than you want that CB thinking he's got to bring it every day to keep his position. I have a hard time thinking that between Jackson, Allen, Harris, etc. that someone won't break out from the pack.

DX-TEX
07-30-2011, 04:18 PM
Put James Casey back there.

Spled
07-31-2011, 08:43 PM
I hope we see a lot of Shiloh Keo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf4olni5QHo&feature=related

Ryan
07-31-2011, 09:07 PM
I remember KJ making an amazing play on the ball batting it down later on in the year(can't remember the game) only to have it negated by a terrible PI call. That showed me right there he does have some ability, hopefully if he does play Wade can get him in the best opportunity to succeed.

DocBar
07-31-2011, 09:14 PM
Put James Casey back there.He's gonna be too busy playing FB, HB and punter. I hear they're trying to clone him so he can punt and LS at the same time. :fans:

76Texan
07-31-2011, 11:27 PM
I've watched 4 Bengals game so far (early in the season: Pats, Ravens, Panthers, and Browns), and I saw a pretty good corner in JJ.

Stiil, he was beaten for a TD on an outside realease (where the CB is on his own). The sadety was occupied by another route.
It was a 31-yd pass to Mason (which could have been a little longer TD if the Ravens had been in a different field position and depending on how soon he can catch up to the receiver, probably within 5-10 yards.)

In another game, he was beaten for a short-medium catch that could have gone long for a TD but was saved by a LB (Maualuga, I think) who reacted extremely well to the play.
It was on another outside release by the receiver and the safety was occpupied by another route if I remember correctly.
The receiver cut back inside after the catch to get past JJ, I think.

He was saved by a LB on another catch (short-medium) who happened to be nearby due to coverage call. I can't recall where the safety was (it was late last night when I watched the last two games.)

So don't get your hope up too high if you want a CB who can "man-up" all by himself.

Rey
07-31-2011, 11:35 PM
I've watched 4 Bengals game so far (early in the season: Pats, Ravens, Panthers, and Browns), and I saw a pretty good corner in JJ.

Stiil, he was beaten for a TD on an outside realease (where the CB is on his own). The sadety was occupied by another route.
It was a 31-yd pass to Mason (which could have been a little longer TD if the Ravens had been in a different field position and depending on how soon he can catch up to the receiver, probably within 5-10 yards.)

In another game, he was beaten for a short-medium catch that could have gone long for a TD but was saved by a LB (Maualuga, I think) who reacted extremely well to the play.
It was on another outside release by the receiver and the safety was occpupied by another route if I remember correctly.
The receiver cut back inside after the catch to get past JJ, I think.

He was saved by a LB on another catch (short-medium) who happened to be nearby due to coverage call. I can't recall where the safety was (it was late last night when I watched the last two games.)

So don't get your hope up too high if you want a CB who can "man-up" all by himself.

So basically j Jo suck, Kareem good.

Just messin with ya.

DocBar
07-31-2011, 11:37 PM
So basically j Jo suck, Kareem good.

Just messin with ya.You got it all wrong. The safeties sucked...get with the program, Rey....:fingergun:

Rey
08-01-2011, 12:16 AM
You got it all wrong. The safeties sucked...get with the program, Rey....:fingergun:

I was just messin with 76 but really, I dont know how you can explain away kareem's mistakes and make j Jo sound like suck.

DocBar
08-01-2011, 12:58 AM
I was just messin with 76 but really, I dont know how you can explain away kareem's mistakes and make j Jo sound like suck.I know. I was just messin with you. LOL

76Texan
08-01-2011, 01:20 AM
I was just messin with 76 but really, I dont know how you can explain away kareem's mistakes and make j Jo sound like suck.

Rey, you're too set in your way, I know better than to try to change your mind.
At the same time, you have yet to show me why Jackson sucked.
If it's so easy to prove, why can't anybody show me a bunch of terrible plays?
I'm really perplexed! :specnatz:


Just to clarify things, JJ was on an island in all those 3 situations.
He cannot expect safety help as they were multiple-receiver patterns, and his receiver had an outside release.


On a different note, Manning still looks pretty good against the Panthers (by that I mean, he looks like a big upgrade over Wilson/Pollard/Nolan).

He played well.

He did slip on a play as the receiver (Lafell) got past him up the middle (in cover 2 with no jamming from the CB) on a post route.
The QB Clausen left the ball a little short and Manning was able to recover and nearly had an interception (both hands on the ball, but it was just high, and on an angle.)

Toward the end of the game, there was a hail-mary pass and Manning came right over and was in great position to help, but there wasn't any need as the CB intercepted the ball (instead of batting it down.)
So I guess the Bears taught them differently than Bush & Co. :kitten:

Rey
08-01-2011, 01:27 AM
Rey, you're too set in your way, I know better than to try to change your mind.
At the same time, you have yet to show me why Jackson sucked.
If it's so easy to prove, why can't anybody show me a bunch of terrible plays?:

You've seen the plays where Jackson sucked but you choose to blame it on someone else.

Whatever. Like I said I was just messin with you.

I think Jackson sucked last year, you think he played ok. We can agree to disagree on that.

As far as comparing Joseph to Kareem there is no comparison. Just find it funny that you can find all those bad plays from Joseph so fast and have yet to find a bad play for Kareem.

Talk about perplexing.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 01:39 AM
You've seen the plays where Jackson sucked but you choose to blame it on someone else.

Whatever. Like I said I was just messin with you.

I think Jackson sucked last year, you think he played ok. We can agree to disagree on that.

As far as comparing Joseph to Kareem there is no comparison. Just find it funny that you can find all those bad plays from Joseph so fast and have yet to find a bad play for Kareem.

Talk about perplexing.

Once again, you kept mixing things up.
I've been checking out Joseph and Manning.
In no way do I compare JJ with Jackson.
All I'm saying is that a CB on an island is bad enough (in situations where he cannot expect safety help). Imagine what it's like when the "expected" help wasn't there!

On the other hand, it's not my problem to find bad plays from Jackson.
It's for EU and Lucky, etc. but they haven't found much!
You can't give me a reasonable reason that he sucked in those plays, how can I agree to it?

Rey
08-01-2011, 02:31 AM
Once again, you kept mixing things up.
I've been checking out Joseph and Manning.
In no way do I compare JJ with Jackson.
All I'm saying is that a CB on an island is bad enough (in situations where he cannot expect safety help). Imagine what it's like when the "expected" help wasn't there!

On the other hand, it's not my problem to find bad plays from Jackson.
It's for EU and Lucky, etc. but they haven't found much!
You can't give me a reasonable reason that he sucked in those plays, how can I agree to it?

here is a scouting report from a bengals fan on Joseph: probably explains why you couldn't find the safety on one play:



Strengths: Exceptional athlete; great speed with very fluid hips; Agility and Acceleration are top notch; At best in man coverage. Excels in routes where the wide receiver has to make a sharp cut (comebacks, ins and outs, slants), this is due to Joseph's agility and anticipation. Joseph is almost as good in zone coverages as he is in man, he does a good job at disguising his coverage in order to bait the ball to be thrown in a specific area. For example: He's assigned a short zone in the flats. Joseph will bump the WR and begin to run down field with him creating the illusion that the flats are open for a tight end or a running back. Once the ball is thrown in that direction, Joseph is already peeling off of his WR to make a big hit or knock down the ball thrown into the flat. Joseph has become a good tackling cornerback and will lay a shoulder into a bigger player. He's not scared to hit. Joseph also does and excellent job of getting his arms and hands on the ball for pass breakups.




Weaknesses: Bigger WRs can give Joseph troubles. Jump balls and fade routes hurt him the most because he doesn't have the best ball skills. He can lose sight of the ball and can't recover to make a play. His ball skills have dramatically increases since he was drafted, but he still misses a few more interceptions than you'd like. Nagging injuries have hurt Joseph's production and reputation. He's never had a serious injury, but every season something comes up where he misses a couple of games. He also has played left CB exclusively for the majority of his career.

Overall: In my opinion, Johnathan Joseph is the Bengals best all around cornerback. The Cincinnati defense plays a lot of singe high (one safety in deep coverage) and man coverage underneath, which means only one safety over the top to help the corners. Most of the time, that safety is shading over to Leon Hall's side. That's about the only time you see Joseph get beat deep. He's a top-five physical talent at the cornerback position. When he's close to 100 percent healthy and the rest of the defense is on their game, Joseph is a rare shut down cornerback. I've seen him completely lock down one side of the field and force offenses to start looking elsewhere. Joseph is a vital piece to the Bengals defense and he is irreplaceable at this point. If anybody expects to sign him, it could be around the five year, $50 million deal range.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/6/28/2249082/bengals-scouting-report-johnathan-joseph

Ryan
08-01-2011, 02:43 AM
here is a scouting report from a bengals fan on Joseph: probably explains why you couldn't find the safety on one play:



http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/6/28/2249082/bengals-scouting-report-johnathan-joseph


You mean to tell me that Peyton Manning can't slant us to death on his side of the field from now on? :fans:

I can't wait to see how our D plays.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 02:50 AM
It looks like the Bengals used the pattern matching concept.
I haven't looked closely enough to be sure.
They probably mixed in some zone as well (like Wade's defense) even though I'm not quite sure either. I haven't looked closely enough.

Like in this one play I just saw against the Bucs; it could be cover 2 man-under or it could be cover 4.
JJ looks just like Jackson, LOL!
(I might have to post the screen shots.)

The Bengals started with a cover 2 look against a standard offset-I by the Bucs.
The receiver lined up just outside the numbers; JJ was about 7 yards off the LOS and backpedaling.
The receiver ran straight toward JJ, then put on a double move (faking the corner route), turned inside and caught the ball near the hashmarks.
JJ slipped and "fell down" (LOL!).
The receiver took a few steps then went down after he made a cut on the safety (right shoulder hit the ground - he had the ball in both hands); they called it a fumble (what the heck???)

If it was man-under, then the catch was on JJ; both he and the safety sucked.
If it was cover 4 then JJ looked very bad (because he "fell down"), but the catch should be charged to the safety.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 02:57 AM
here is a scouting report from a bengals fan on Joseph: probably explains why you couldn't find the safety on one play:





Even as I pointed out some bad plays from JJ, he still looks pretty good to me.
(That is unless you expect a CB to "man-up" all the time.)

I saw the safety there on those plays.
It's just that I didn't take any note (it was late at night and I was in no mood to do so);
I can't tell you exactly what the safety was doing, but I am certain that JJ cannot expect safety help on any of those 3 plays.

Rey
08-01-2011, 03:01 AM
You mean to tell me that Peyton Manning can't slant us to death on his side of the field from now on? :fans:

I can't wait to see how our D plays.

I think he matches up very well against the colts receivers. Smaller guys that rely on route running and quickness.

I saw a comment from a colts fan lamenting the fact that we got Joseph because he felt that Joseph always played them well.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:27 AM
Here's the Mason's TD catch.
It was a 3-receiver pattern.
The Bengals sent a safety blitz, so it was man coverage with a single safety help in the middle.
Mason released outside, so Joseph cannot expect help.
(He's at the bottom of the screen).

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/1.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229657.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229719.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229733.jpg

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:30 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229741.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229751.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229757.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229765.jpg

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:32 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229773.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229779.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229786.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mason%20TD%20catch/vlcsnap-16229793.jpg

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:37 AM
I took many screenshots of the Mike Williams catch, it's better to view the whole sequence here.

Doesn't he remind you of Kareem Jackson? LOL!

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/Mike%20Williams%20catch%20and%20fumble/

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:54 PM
I finished the Bengals/Bucs game!

Ouch! Joseph just fell down again, LOL!
(Twice in the same game. Oh boy!)

He also gave up a TD to the same rookie Mike Williams (a 4th rd pick).
(I bet y'all miss the grab on Joseph's jersey at the chest by the receiver.)

And he "looked" confused defending another play (based upon the terminology of another poster - and not mine.)
On this play, I believe the Bengals was in pattern mathing and Joseph came up on the out route to the flat while the safety was supposed to take on the deep route (and he couldn't get there in time).
Joseph probably needs to stay with the deep route longer though(?!?)

But of course, for those critics that imagine this as Jackson, he whiffed no matter what! :spin:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/vs%20Bucs/

Rey
08-01-2011, 04:38 PM
I finished the Bengals/Bucs game!

Ouch! Joseph just fell down again, LOL!
(Twice in the same game. Oh boy!)

He also gave up a TD to the same rookie Mike Williams (a 4th rd pick).
(I bet y'all miss the grab on Joseph's jersey at the chest by the receiver.)

And he "looked" confused defending another play (based upon the terminology of another poster - and not mine.)
On this play, I believe the Bengals was in pattern mathing and Joseph came up on the out route to the flat while the safety was supposed to take on the deep route (and he couldn't get there in time).
Joseph probably needs to stay with the deep route longer though(?!?)

But of course, for those critics that imagine this as Jackson, he whiffed no matter what! :spin:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Jonathan%20Joseph/vs%20Bucs/

I still don't think you get it.

Every corner gets beat. Some more than others.

It's about who can play better more often and who can make more plays. In the other thread I said that even Deion has looked like kareem at some point so the fact that you are able to find bad plays from Joseph isn't earth shattering.

The difference is thar you seem quick to find plays where j Jo looked bad but I've yet to see you acknowledge a Kareem Jackson error.

Like I said in your kjax thread. It would help if you analyzed Kareem from a neutral standpoint instead of trying to explain away every situation he looked bad in.

Now you are almost doing the exact opposite with Joseph and pouncing on his every bad move to try and prove a point.

Look I don't think Kareem is terrible. He had some skills. But even if Joseph has some ugly plays he's 10x the corner Kareem is and kareem could actually learn from him.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 05:02 PM
I still don't think you get it.

Every corner gets beat. Some more than others.

It's about who can play better more often and who can make more plays. In the other thread I said that even Deion has looked like kareem at some point so the fact that you are able to find bad plays from Joseph isn't earth shattering.

The difference is thar you seem quick to find plays where j Jo looked bad but I've yet to see you acknowledge a Kareem Jackson error.

Like I said in your kjax thread. It would help if you analyzed Kareem from a neutral standpoint instead of trying to explain away every situation he looked bad in.

Now you are almost doing the exact opposite with Joseph and pouncing on his every bad move to try and prove a point.

Look I don't think Kareem is terrible. He had some skills. But even if Joseph has some ugly plays he's 10x the corner Kareem is and kareem could actually learn from him.

Aw, come on Rey!
I did say that Jackson looked bad on the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu.
When I did the game analysis, I did say that he got beat by Garcon in game one (even though the ball was long). I could have glossed over it easily, but I didn't.
Same thing with some other plays in the game analysis.

Sure, I want to prove a few points:

1. Jackson falling down is a good joke, but every DB fell down.

2. A CB can get beat by an unknown WR.

3. Joseph got beat in one-on-one for 2 TDs in jsut a few games I watched so far. Jackson got beat by the same amount and them guys say that he sucked.

4. For a change, why don't people like EU or Lucky find some good plays by Jackson to talk about if they say that they are objective.

5. I don't explain away things. I lay them out with examples from different receivers in similar situations and let people make up their own mind. You or EU or Lucky can do the same as critics.

Hey, but at least now, you did say that Jackson has some skills and you don't think he's terrible.

That's a pretty good directional change because from the posts I read before, your line was quite different :)

:specnatz::specnatz: