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View Full Version : Projected starters on defense...


Astew10112
07-29-2011, 03:36 AM
DE-JJ Watt
(6'5 290)

NT- Earl Mitchell
(6'3 291)

DE- Antonio Smith
(6'4 275)

OLB/DE- Mario Williams
(6'6 285)

ILB- Brian Cushing
(6'3 259)

ILB- Demeco Ryans
(6'1 248)

OLB- Connor Barwin
(6'4 260)

CB- Kareem Jackson
(5'10 195)

CB- Johnathan Joseph
(5'11 190)

FS- Glover Quinn
(6'0 203)

SS- Danieal Manning
(5'11 202)

DexmanC
07-29-2011, 03:37 AM
That can't be the Texans. The lineup you posted is an NFL-calibur defense.

SAMURAITEXAN
07-29-2011, 03:38 AM
The lineup look so sweet!

Go Texans!!!

Rey
07-29-2011, 04:01 AM
I think the only corner currently on the roster that may challenge Kareem for the starting spot is Allen with Harris not far behind.

I'm hoping we can sign Carlos Rogers. That lineup would be even sweeter.

80tothezone
07-29-2011, 04:03 AM
DE-JJ Watt
(6'5 290)

NT- Earl Mitchell
(6'3 291)

DE- Antonio Smith
(6'4 275)

OLB/DE- Mario Williams
(6'6 285)

ILB- Brian Cushing
(6'3 259)

ILB- Demeco Ryans
(6'1 248)

OLB- Connor Barwin
(6'4 260)

CB- Kareem Jackson
(5'10 195)

CB- Johnathan Joseph
(5'11 190)

FS- Glover Quinn
(6'0 203)

SS- Danieal Manning
(5'11 202)

:fans:

Corrosion
07-29-2011, 04:46 AM
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.

whiskeyrbl
07-29-2011, 05:05 AM
DE-JJ Watt
(6'5 290)

NT- Earl Mitchell
(6'3 291)

DE- Antonio Smith
(6'4 275)

OLB/DE- Mario Williams
(6'6 285)

ILB- Brian Cushing
(6'3 259)

ILB- Demeco Ryans
(6'1 248)

OLB- Connor Barwin
(6'4 260)

CB- Kareem Jackson
(5'10 195)

CB- Johnathan Joseph
(5'11 190)

FS- Glover Quinn
(6'0 203)

SS- Danieal Manning
(5'11 202)

This will probably be it but I would like to see Barwin at DE instead of Smith and Reed in at OLB.

Wolf6151
07-29-2011, 05:26 AM
The only problem I see with that lineup is Earl Mitchell at NT, 291 lbs. is awfully light for a NT and makes us weak in the middle and susceptible to the run. I'm thinking Shawn Cody starts at NT or we go after a NT in FA.

TheMatrix31
07-29-2011, 06:00 AM
Looks damn good to me.

Let's hope Antonio Smith doesn't get any STUPID penalties like he's been known to do.

hradhak
07-29-2011, 06:14 AM
My only concern is Quin at the FS position. I know he was decent as a corner opposite Dunta, but FS is a little different and it's knowing where to be instead of who to cover in some sense.

I think he's got the physical gift, it's just going to be interesting to see if he has the instincts.

steelbtexan
07-29-2011, 07:17 AM
That can't be the Texans. The lineup you posted is an NFL-calibur defense.

If Ryans and Barwin can stay healthy,

Mitchell can play the nose at a decent level.

The DE's stay healthy. However if all of this comes together the Texans will be in the playoffs. Remember though the Texans finished 15th on defense in 2009, Schaub threw for 4800 yds and the Texans still didn't make the playoffs.

But it's a great day to be a Texans fan. BoB finally decided he wanted to sit at the big boys table.

TheMatrix31
07-29-2011, 07:26 AM
Not much of a run game in 2009, though.

buddyboy
07-29-2011, 09:38 AM
With these moves in FA and the draft, I feel oddly comfortable with the defense. This is assuming they're just about done with the defense and no other big moves happen.

CB: With Joseph manning the number 1, we get to move everyone down a spot to where they should be. KJax and Allen fight for the spot across from him and share some time with the rookie Harris who'll have time to develop and play some nickel.

S: Manning sounds like an AMAZING pickup. There's one spot locked up. Glover scares me a bit. That other safety spot is one of the big question marks on our defensive depth chart, HOPEFULLY Quinn can step up and Wade Phillips can turn him into a serviceable safety. We'll see. Keo Shiloh backs em up.

OLB: I'm actually much more concerned with Mario at OLB than I am with Connor Barwin. I think Barwin will come in and succeed, but Mario worries me a bit. Regardless, this position is the spot with the most question marks as far as defense goes. Which is scary, since this position is one of the most important in a 3-4. Brooks Reed can back-up and develop.

ILB: Seemingly our strongest position with DeMeco and Cushing, but there are still concerns. Will DeMeco return from injury at even 90%? And will Cushing continue to free fall from his alleged PED high? Hopefully these two can become a great ILB tandem.

DE: Probably Antonio and Watt. By spending our first rounder on Watt, I expect him to come in and start AND have impact. This may be one of our stronger positions in my opinion.

DT: Cody or Mitchell. The last spot, and yet another spot that we're not sure how it will work out. Phillips claims we won't need a huge space eater, but let me tell you, having that big guy sure would make me feel better. I doubt we have the cap for another impact defensive player, so this is probably what we'll enter the season with. This scares me a bit.

So, what do you guys think? Where are the biggest concerns on defense and where do the Texan's defensive strengths land?

michaelm
07-29-2011, 09:45 AM
With these moves in FA and the draft, I feel oddly comfortable with the defense. This is assuming they're just about done with the defense and no other big moves happen.

CB: With Joseph manning the number 1, we get to move everyone down a spot to where they should be. KJax and Allen fight for the spot across from him and share some time with the rookie Harris who'll have time to develop and play some nickel.

S: Manning sounds like an AMAZING pickup. There's one spot locked up. Glover scares me a bit. That other safety spot is one of the big question marks on our defensive depth chart, HOPEFULLY Quinn can step up and Wade Phillips can turn him into a serviceable safety. We'll see. Keo Shiloh backs em up.

OLB: I'm actually much more concerned with Mario at OLB than I am with Connor Barwin. I think Barwin will come in and succeed, but Mario worries me a bit. Regardless, this position is the spot with the most question marks as far as defense goes. Which is scary, since this position is one of the most important in a 3-4. Brooks Reed can back-up and develop.

ILB: Seemingly our strongest position with DeMeco and Cushing, but there are still concerns. Will DeMeco return from injury at even 90%? And will Cushing continue to free fall from his alleged PED high? Hopefully these two can become a great ILB tandem.

DE: Probably Antonio and Watt. By spending our first rounder on Watt, I expect him to come in and start AND have impact. This may be one of our stronger positions in my opinion.

DT: Cody or Mitchell. The last spot, and yet another spot that we're not sure how it will work out. Phillips claims we won't need a huge space eater, but let me tell you, having that big guy sure would make me feel better. I doubt we have the cap for another impact defensive player, so this is probably what we'll enter the season with. This scares me a bit.

So, what do you guys think? Where are the biggest concerns on defense and where do the Texan's defensive strengths land?


I'm not exactly sure why I started feeling this, but I will not be surprised one bit if Mario ends up being traded. There are a few teams that are way under the salary floor, and a good young pass rushing DE is always in demand.

I am excite to see what Mario can do at OLB, but I'm not very optimistic about the prospects. Just not feeling him at that position.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he will be horrible. He has too much raw talent to completely suck, but the value he brings to the table is clearly greater at DE than OLB.

Allow me to indulge in a brief fantasy:
Trade Mario for a decent OLB or NT, plus draft pick(s). Use the cap space to pursue Nnambdi. Yeah, completely unrealistic, I know, but that would be awesome.

Big Lou
07-29-2011, 09:55 AM
Mario will not be playing as a traditional OLB. He will be a standing DE the vast majority of the time. This won't be the typical 3-4.

michaelm
07-29-2011, 09:57 AM
Mario will not be playing as a traditional OLB. He will be a standing DE the vast majority of the time. This won't be the typical 3-4.

Yeah, I hear that, but I still feel like it's not going to be a natural fit for him. We shall see though.

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 10:09 AM
I was thinking about this.

I'm good with our secondary now. It would be nice to pick up another CB in FA but it's not a necessity at all.

I'd like an experienced 3-4 OLB but I'm kinda OK with what we have. My biggest concern is Mario. I see him as a great 3-4 DE more than an OLB.

I'm worried about our ILBs because I don't expect Demeco to come back at even 80%. I'd like to get one or two ILBs.

DEs... I like Smith and Watt to start. I like this even better with Mario in the rotation. I wouldn't mind another guy here.

I don't have a great feeling about NT. I'd like to pick up a "real" 3-4 NT.

And, as was stated by michaelm, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mario traded. He's going into the last year of his contract and he's probably going to be happier as a 4-3 DE. We could get an experienced 3-4 OLB and a good NT and shore up this defense. (And maybe throw in a great WR for the O.)

michaelm
07-29-2011, 10:29 AM
And, as was stated by michaelm, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mario traded. He's going into the last year of his contract and he's probably going to be happier as a 4-3 DE. We could get an experienced 3-4 OLB and a good NT and shore up this defense. (And maybe throw in a great WR for the O.)


I can understand why people think mario can "fit" at OLB, but his value is clearly as a 4-3 DE.
4-3 DEs have tremendous value in the NFL, and we happen to not need one at this time.
I say the only way to truly maximize Mario's value is by trading him, and turning that value into players that fit the 3-4 better, or draft picks. Along with players and/or picks, the Texans get cap relief.
It's very much a win-win-win scenario for the Texans, Mario, and any team in need of a pass rushing 4-3 DE, which is a lot of teams out there.


*edit*
As far as the cap relief part of this deal, I may or may not be correct. Depending on how Mario's contract is structured, it is possible that there might be a cap hit if he is traded, i suppose.

Capologists??

cland
07-29-2011, 10:42 AM
I can understand why people think mario can "fit" at OLB, but his value is clearly as a 4-3 DE.
4-3 DEs have tremendous value in the NFL, and we happen to not need one at this time.
I say the only way to truly maximize Mario's value is by trading him, and turning that value into players that fit the 3-4 better, or draft picks. Along with players and/or picks, the Texans get cap relief.
It's very much a win-win-win scenario for the Texans, Mario, and any team in need of a pass rushing 4-3 DE, which is a lot of teams out there.


*edit*
As far as the cap relief part of this deal, I may or may not be correct. Depending on how Mario's contract is structured, it is possible that there might be a cap hit if he is traded, i suppose.

Capologists??

Why would you want cap relief by trading your one proven pass-rusher? Go to youtube and watch a Cowboy's game and watch DeMarcus Ware play some regular snaps. I think you'll come away feeling better about Mario playing that role. On first and second downs he stands up, but still rushes the vast majority of the time. On third down, he goes right back to DE in the nickle.

Someone had suggested replacing him with Manny Lawson from the 49ers. How could you see value in a guy who's career sack total (14) equals Mario's best year? What player that's available now would you replace him with?

BTW look at Charles Johnson (the FA DE who got huge money) stat's compared to Mario's.

michaelm
07-29-2011, 10:50 AM
Why would you want cap relief by trading your one proven pass-rusher? Go to youtube and watch a Cowboy's game and watch DeMarcus Ware play some regular snaps. I think you'll come away feeling better about Mario playing that role. On first and second downs he stands up, but still rushes the vast majority of the time. On third down, he goes right back to DE in the nickle.

Someone had suggested replacing him with Manny Lawson from the 49ers. How could you see value in a guy who's career sack total (14) equals Mario's best year? What player that's available now would you replace him with?

BTW look at Charles Johnson (the FA DE who got huge money) stat's compared to Mario's.

I get what you're saying, but comparing Mario to DeMarcus Ware as a OLB is complete fail.
Mario's skill set is different that Ware's.
Ware is way more fluid, has better change of direction, and is probably both quicker, and faster than Mario. Ware is a much more natural fit at OLB, which is kinda my point. Ware is also relentless, which is not a word I've ever heard associated with Mario.

badboy
07-29-2011, 11:02 AM
I was thinking about this.

I'm good with our secondary now. It would be nice to pick up another CB in FA but it's not a necessity at all.

I'd like an experienced 3-4 OLB but I'm kinda OK with what we have. My biggest concern is Mario. I see him as a great 3-4 DE more than an OLB.

I'm worried about our ILBs because I don't expect Demeco to come back at even 80%. I'd like to get one or two ILBs.

DEs... I like Smith and Watt to start. I like this even better with Mario in the rotation. I wouldn't mind another guy here.

I don't have a great feeling about NT. I'd like to pick up a "real" 3-4 NT.

And, as was stated by michaelm, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mario traded. He's going into the last year of his contract and he's probably going to be happier as a 4-3 DE. We could get an experienced 3-4 OLB and a good NT and shore up this defense. (And maybe throw in a great WR for the O.)Would we not have recieved better offers for Mario prio to draft or putting him on marlet at beginning of free agemcy?

cland
07-29-2011, 11:02 AM
I get what you're saying, but comparing Mario to DeMarcus Ware as a OLB is complete fail.
Mario's skill set is different that Ware's.
Ware is way more fluid, has better change of direction, and is probably both quicker, and faster than Mario. Ware is a much more natural fit at OLB, which is kinda my point. Ware is also relentless, which is not a word I've ever heard associated with Mario.

How is it "complete fail" when they'll both play the exact same position in the exact same defensive scheme? They will play it slightly differently, but they still fall in the category of rush the passer by beating the offenses left tackle.

The concept that Mario will stand up and move a pace to the outside corner (only on run downs) gets way overblown IMO.

This is kind of like comparing Schaub to Peyton Manning, and saying he'll be no good at QB--we should trade him. That's why I asked, Who would you replace him with?

fiasco west
07-29-2011, 11:07 AM
I can understand why people think mario can "fit" at OLB, but his value is clearly as a 4-3 DE.
4-3 DEs have tremendous value in the NFL, and we happen to not need one at this time.
I say the only way to truly maximize Mario's value is by trading him, and turning that value into players that fit the 3-4 better, or draft picks. Along with players and/or picks, the Texans get cap relief.
It's very much a win-win-win scenario for the Texans, Mario, and any team in need of a pass rushing 4-3 DE, which is a lot of teams out there.


*edit*
As far as the cap relief part of this deal, I may or may not be correct. Depending on how Mario's contract is structured, it is possible that there might be a cap hit if he is traded, i suppose.

Capologists??

Trade him before seeing what he can do in this defense? Hell no.

Sure Ware is more fluid and quicker, but we have a actual DC now. Not a guy who just plugs a player into a spot and hopes everything goes well. A guy who will put each player in their right position and have them play to their strengths.

If he doesn't ONE bad year is not going to hurt his stock.

DX-TEX
07-29-2011, 11:07 AM
Why would you want cap relief by trading your one proven pass-rusher? Go to youtube and watch a Cowboy's game and watch DeMarcus Ware play some regular snaps. I think you'll come away feeling better about Mario playing that role. On first and second downs he stands up, but still rushes the vast majority of the time. On third down, he goes right back to DE in the nickle.

Someone had suggested replacing him with Manny Lawson from the 49ers. How could you see value in a guy who's career sack total (14) equals Mario's best year? What player that's available now would you replace him with?

BTW look at Charles Johnson (the FA DE who got huge money) stat's compared to Mario's.

Add in we play the Colts twice and the Jags arent exactly known for lighting up the air. Im good wih Mario going after the QB. It being his contract year I am expecting beast mode Mario to show up.

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 11:15 AM
Would we not have recieved better offers for Mario prio to draft or putting him on marlet at beginning of free agemcy?

Maybe, maybe not. There may be teams that didn't get the pass rusher they wanted in the draft and there's not a FA DE of Mario's caliber out there.

I don't expect them to trade him. But it's an intriguing option.

Like I said, though, that's thinking about Mario as an OLB. I'd prefer to see him at DE in the 3-4. I think he could be an amazing 3-4 DE and I'd hate to lose him.

Ole Miss Texan
07-29-2011, 11:45 AM
That's a really really good looking line up. My biggest concern is up the middle. How well will Mitchell/Cody play the Nose on 1st and 2nd downs. Will Demeco regain form or will he and Cushing be run at alot? I can see a lot of teams pounding it at us right up the gut.

One thing Barwin said about transitioning to OLB that I hadn't thought about was how "less tiring" it was. As a DE your down in a 3 point stance straining for a long time presnap waiting to explode... Peyton uses the whole playclock so being down there like that the whole game gets really tiring if its 20 seconds a play. And you can't let up too much because he'll catch you off guard. As an OLB he'll be standing up and that's much easier on the legs. 4th quarter they won't be as tired. Just an interesting little tidbit.

beerlover
07-29-2011, 12:10 PM
DE-JJ Watt
(6'5 290)

NT- Earl Mitchell
(6'3 291)

DE- Antonio Smith
(6'4 275)

OLB/DE- Mario Williams
(6'6 285)

ILB- Brian Cushing
(6'3 259)

ILB- Demeco Ryans
(6'1 248)

OLB- Connor Barwin
(6'4 260)

CB- Kareem Jackson
(5'10 195)

CB- Johnathan Joseph
(5'11 190)

FS- Glover Quinn
(6'0 203)

SS- Danieal Manning
(5'11 202)

I'm going to rep you just because your more up to date than the official Texans website http://www.houstontexans.com/team/depth-chart.html

LDE, Antonio Smith, Tim Jamison

DT, Amobi Okoye, Earl Mitchell

DT, Shaun Cody, Damione Lewis

RDE, Mark Anderson, Jarvis Green

OLB1, Brian Cushing, Xavier Adibi

MLB, Kevin Bentley, Stanford Keglar

OLB2, Zac Diles,

LCB, Glover Quin, Brice McCain, Sherrick McManis

RCB, Kareem Jackson, Jason Allen, Antwaun Molden

SS, Bernard Pollard, Quintin Demps

FS, Troy Nolan

TimeKiller
07-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Check my sig.

We've got some answers at least instead of some....."well this SHOULD work/be ok" kind of set up.

Pass rush oughtta be sick. Sending 4 plain jane or all 7 coming hot, I believe they've got the guys to get to anyone. Speed to the edges too, any decent running attempts will be up the middle where hopefully Demeco will be janitor deluxe cleaning that shit up! There is a weakness up the middle but with the improved front 7 and my goodness, what seems on paper to be a REAL NFL secondary? There shouldn't be a whole helluva lot of time to throw. We may see a team or two break the D and run it all over them but honestly, I'm excited to see what this D can do because it sounds an awful lot like raising hell. And I'm a man who enjoys hell raising.

76Texan
07-29-2011, 01:33 PM
Check my sig.

We've got some answers at least instead of some....."well this SHOULD work/be ok" kind of set up.

Pass rush oughtta be sick. Sending 4 plain jane or all 7 coming hot, I believe they've got the guys to get to anyone. Speed to the edges too, any decent running attempts will be up the middle where hopefully Demeco will be janitor deluxe cleaning that shit up! There is a weakness up the middle but with the improved front 7 and my goodness, what seems on paper to be a REAL NFL secondary? There shouldn't be a whole helluva lot of time to throw. We may see a team or two break the D and run it all over them but honestly, I'm excited to see what this D can do because it sounds an awful lot like raising hell. And I'm a man who enjoys hell raising.

Penetration can disrupt the running game up the middle.
The question to me is on short yardage situation, where it's better to push a guy or two backward.

michaelm
07-29-2011, 01:44 PM
How is it "complete fail" when they'll both play the exact same position in the exact same defensive scheme? They will play it slightly differently, but they still fall in the category of rush the passer by beating the offenses left tackle.

The concept that Mario will stand up and move a pace to the outside corner (only on run downs) gets way overblown IMO.

This is kind of like comparing Schaub to Peyton Manning, and saying he'll be no good at QB--we should trade him. That's why I asked, Who would you replace him with?

I used the term complete fail to describe comparing the players to each other. I realize that the position is the same, but IMO, the players are so different from each other that the comparison fails there.
You used Ware as a direct comparison to Mario to illustrate why Mario can be successful at the position. I just think the players are different enough physically, and by skill set, that it's not an apples to apples comparison.

I think when all is said and done, it will be obvious that Mario is a far better 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB, and that his talent is not going to be utilized to it's fullest extent at that position.

Ole Miss Texan
07-29-2011, 03:15 PM
I think when all is said and done, it will be obvious that Mario is a far better 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB, and that his talent is not going to be utilized to it's fullest extent at that position.
I would tend to agree with that but try this on for size. I think Mario can be far better in how Wade Phillips will be using him than he has been in years past.

You're right though, as a standard 3-4 OLB in a 'normal' 3-4 defense, I would not feel comfortable with Mario there full time. But that's not how Mario will be used. He will be used the same way Ware is used and I think he will be successful.

Rey
07-29-2011, 03:44 PM
Don't think of Mario as a olb. Think of him as a stand up de.

He's going to have a great year. There will be no runs in his vicinity. He will kill rushing the passer.

Top seven defense this year.

SteveSlaton20
07-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Our NT is about the same size as our rookie DE.

Antonio Garay 6'4'' 320 LBs
Casey Hampton 6'1'' 325 LBs
B.J. Raji 6'2'' 337 LBs
Kris Jenkins 6'5'' 360 LBs
Paul Soliai 6'4'' 355 LBs
Haloti Ngata 6'4'' 350 LBs

^That is the list of NT who plays in the 3-4 and their defense are a top 10 Defense.

Earl Mitchell 6'3'' 291 LBs

And I don't think KJ should be starting as the #2CB right away, Jason Allen should be unless proven otherwise. Then KJ for nickel and BHarris for dime. But other than that, I'm fine w/ the depth chart.

Porky
07-29-2011, 04:11 PM
Any defense that has Kareem Abdul Jackson is a complete fail imo. That guy couldn't cover his great grandmother using a walker.

That spot will get picked on 80% of the time or better and why not. Hell, I would throw to his spot 100% of the time. Hell, one out of 100 throws he might make a play. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I'm also VERY worried about our LB situation. At ILB, I doubt that Ryans is the player he was prior to injury. Then with Cushing, unless he is roided up he plays closer to Brian Cushion than Brian Cushing. He was softer than downey tissue last yr. Sure, he is good when juicing. When not, he is JAG.

On the outside, Barwin is coming off injury and more raw than a baby with a diaper rash, and Un-Super Mario is making a position change and is generally about as motivated as a homeless man living under a bridge.

I am high on Brooks Reed. I like his future a lot, but he is a rookie and he could be very good as a rookie, or he might just be the guy that needs a little seasoning before he puts it together. And it doesn't help that he is a rookie on a team changing D, with no practice time, no OTA's etc to get aquainted.

I am pretty psyched about Watt, but we don't have a NT imo. Cody and Mitchell are imposters. These guys are about as much NT as I am.

Obviousely, I love the draft picks and the two guys we picked up in FA, but I just feel we are a long ways away from being a good D. I hope I am wrong. My biggest concern is KJ. I think he stinks, and that is putting it lightly and any D with him as a starter is going to have major suckitude. I would trade him for a package of twinkies and a Dr Pepper.

mussop
07-29-2011, 04:59 PM
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.

Jackson an allstar?:kitten:


No but really, with a small NT and a MLB coming off a major injury, I'm worried about teams killing us up the middle. We really need to take a look at a bigboy there to keep OG's off Demeco who is not a big guy anyway. Has anyone picked up Cullen Jenkins or Aubrayo Franklin yet?

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Has anyone picked up Cullen Jenkins or Aubrayo Franklin yet?

No. And Brandon Mebane is still out there, too.

Rey
07-29-2011, 05:11 PM
Jackson an allstar?:kitten:


No but really, with a small NT and a MLB coming off a major injury, I'm worried about teams killing us up the middle. We really need to take a look at a bigboy there to keep OG's off Demeco who is not a big guy anyway. Has anyone picked up Cullen Jenkins or Aubrayo Franklin yet?

Unless demeco has lost weight he is pretty big.

But I agree that we need to find a big boy.

I would not be upset if we traded Antonio, Walter and slaton plus picks for Vincent Jackson.

And then sign a nt, de and ilb.

I can dream right.

mussop
07-29-2011, 05:28 PM
Unless demeco has lost weight he is pretty big.

But I agree that we need to find a big boy.

I would not be upset if we traded Antonio, Walter and slaton plus picks for Vincent Jackson.

And then sign a nt, de and ilb.

I can dream right.

Not saying he's a runt but at 248 lbs he doesn't need to be taking on OG's. Thats what is going to be happening on most running plays if Mitchell is our starting DT. If we trade Antonio who do you start in his place?

Rey
07-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Not saying he's a runt but at 248 lbs he doesn't need to be taking on OG's. Thats what is going to be happening on most running plays if Mitchell is our starting DT. If we trade Antonio who do you start in his place?

There are quite a few nt's and 34 DES out there.

TheMatrix31
07-29-2011, 06:00 PM
I share your concerns, Porky. But I think the beauty of it is that we don't need to necessarily have an ELITE defense to be very, very good.

fiasco west
07-29-2011, 06:06 PM
Any defense that has Kareem Abdul Jackson is a complete fail imo. That guy couldn't cover his great grandmother using a walker.

That spot will get picked on 80% of the time or better and why not. Hell, I would throw to his spot 100% of the time. Hell, one out of 100 throws he might make a play. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I'm also VERY worried about our LB situation. At ILB, I doubt that Ryans is the player he was prior to injury. Then with Cushing, unless he is roided up he plays closer to Brian Cushion than Brian Cushing. He was softer than downey tissue last yr. Sure, he is good when juicing. When not, he is JAG.

On the outside, Barwin is coming off injury and more raw than a baby with a diaper rash, and Un-Super Mario is making a position change and is generally about as motivated as a homeless man living under a bridge.

I am high on Brooks Reed. I like his future a lot, but he is a rookie and he could be very good as a rookie, or he might just be the guy that needs a little seasoning before he puts it together. And it doesn't help that he is a rookie on a team changing D, with no practice time, no OTA's etc to get aquainted.

I am pretty psyched about Watt, but we don't have a NT imo. Cody and Mitchell are imposters. These guys are about as much NT as I am.

Obviousely, I love the draft picks and the two guys we picked up in FA, but I just feel we are a long ways away from being a good D. I hope I am wrong. My biggest concern is KJ. I think he stinks, and that is putting it lightly and any D with him as a starter is going to have major suckitude. I would trade him for a package of twinkies and a Dr Pepper.

It was his rookie year. Nnamdi wasn't very good his rookie year either, along with many CBs. Still it was his rookie year, there is a NFL rule that you don't judge players until they have played 3 years in the NFL. If you did base him on one year, might as well get rid of Mario too.

Lets also remember that if Kareem made a mistake, it was magnified because there was literally NO safety help at all.

leebigeztx
07-29-2011, 06:15 PM
I share your concerns, Porky. But I think the beauty of it is that we don't need to necessarily have an ELITE defense to be very, very good.

That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 06:20 PM
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.


Major hole at CB2. Unproven and possibly undersized DT. ILB and (unproven) OLB coming off major injuries. FS and other OLB switching positions. Rookie DE. Everybody switching to a new scheme.

Realistically, Joseph, Manning, and A Smith are the only ones without question marks. A top 15 defense would be a huge accomplishment IMO.

SteveSlaton20
07-29-2011, 06:23 PM
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.

lol, not a chance.

Aso + Huff > Joseph + Manning

Jackie Chiles
07-29-2011, 06:26 PM
That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.

I think your last 5 posts you have mentioned cutting Smith. We get it. Won't happen, but we get it.

b0ng
07-29-2011, 06:31 PM
That can't be the Texans. The lineup you posted is an NFL-calibur defense*.

*As long as JJ Watt pans out and the gigantic ? at NT isn't that big of a ? afterall

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 06:32 PM
It was his rookie year. Nnamdi wasn't very good his rookie year either, along with many CBs. Still it was his rookie year, there is a NFL rule that you don't judge players until they have played 3 years in the NFL. If you did base him on one year, might as well get rid of Mario too.

Lets also remember that if Kareem made a mistake, it was magnified because there was literally NO safety help at all.

It's pretty poor logic to suggest that Player X may have been terrible his first year but Good Player Y wasn't that great either, so Player X will still be good. That's like saying that some random practice squad running back will become an all-pro because Arian Foster did it. I'm sure if you look at a list of first year corners who played at historically bad levels, most probably never even rose to the level of mediocrity. That's not saying Jackson can't turn it around, especially with different coaches, but it's foolish not to think the most probable result will be continued bad play and/or lost job.

LikeMike
07-29-2011, 06:33 PM
lol, not a chance.

Aso + Huff > Joseph + Manning

Yeah... but Huff ain`t nobody :thisbig:.

The only thing that bugs me is, that the Eagles got Aso relatively cheap (12 million per year) while we got JJ a little over his market value (almost 10 million a year) - the difference is too small to be absolutely thrilled.

But then again - I am thrilled. This offseason the defense changed almost completely. New coordinator, new system and a whole bunch of new starters.

Im pretty sure that our #2 CB will be at least serviceable - whether it is Allen or KJax (he should`ve learned something after his first year and now with good coaching) - heck maybe even Harris surprises some people.

But in the end - having a mediocre defense should do a whole lot for this football team. I just have this nagging feeling, that our O-Line will suck next year...

fiasco west
07-29-2011, 06:36 PM
It's pretty poor logic to suggest that Player X may have been terrible his first year but Good Player Y wasn't that great either, so Player X will still be good. That's like saying that some random practice squad running back will become an all-pro because Arian Foster did it. I'm sure if you look at a list of first year corners who played at historically bad levels, most probably never even rose to the level of mediocrity. That's not saying Jackson can't turn it around, especially with different coaches, but it's foolish not to think the most probable result will be continued bad play and/or lost job.

I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 06:37 PM
Yeah... but Huff ain`t nobody :thisbig:.

The only thing that bugs me is, that the Eagles got Aso relatively cheap (12 million per year) while we got JJ a little over his market value (almost 10 million a year) - the difference is too small to be absolutely thrilled.

But then again - I am thrilled. This offseason the defense changed almost completely. New coordinator, new system and a whole bunch of new starters.

Im pretty sure that our #2 CB will be at least serviceable - whether it is Allen or KJax (he should`ve learned something after his first year and now with good coaching) - heck maybe even Harris surprises some people.

But in the end - having a mediocre defense should do a whole lot for this football team. I just have this nagging feeling, that our O-Line will suck next year...

I think people are underestimating how much Asomugha's age factored into things, particularly coming off a somewhat injury-plagued season. If he was 27 like Joseph you could have given him a blank check.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 06:43 PM
I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.


Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.

TEXANRED
07-29-2011, 06:47 PM
Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.

Didn't you play for the Oilers?

ObsiWan
07-29-2011, 06:55 PM
I'm also VERY worried about our LB situation. At ILB, I doubt that Ryans is the player he was prior to injury. Then with Cushing, unless he is roided up he plays closer to Brian Cushion than Brian Cushing. He was softer than downey tissue last yr. Sure, he is good when juicing. When not, he is JAG.

On the outside, Barwin is coming off injury and more raw than a baby with a diaper rash, and Un-Super Mario is making a position change and is generally about as motivated as a homeless man living under a bridge.

I am high on Brooks Reed. I like his future a lot, but he is a rookie and he could be very good as a rookie, or he might just be the guy that needs a little seasoning before he puts it together. And it doesn't help that he is a rookie on a team changing D, with no practice time, no OTA's etc to get aquainted.


I share the same set of worries you have about our LBs. Two of the four are damaged - three if you think Cushing won't be the same while not on the sauce. Big question mark regarding what level they'll be able to play at. I love him to death mind you but Ryans wasn't superb in coverage pre-achilles injury. Who knows how that will affect his ability to keep up with the Dallas Clark types.

I don't believe that Brooks will be affected by us changing defenses; since he's just starting out, he doesn't have anything to UN-learn from last year's defensive... thing (can't call it a scheme since that assumes some sort of thought process).

fiasco west
07-29-2011, 06:56 PM
Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.

It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 07:44 PM
It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.

Jackson IS getting the benefit of the doubt-- he started as a rookie and kept his job even after he proved ineffective, and he'll get the chance to start this year as well. Nobody thought Mario was a "bust" after his first year, certainly not on the level of Jackson. Okoye got some sacks early in his first year, but I don't think anybody thought he was "pretty good," promising maybe, but it wasn't like his first year performance was some crazy aberration.

Jackson was historically bad his first year. Not mediocre, not disappointing, not overmatched, but historically bad. Find ten rookie corners (hell, ten rookies at any non-skill position) who had comparably awful seasons, and I'd highly doubt any of them turned into anything decent. The excuses are valid, but but how far can they really go?

drs23
07-29-2011, 08:10 PM
That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.

Who is this "wyatt" you speak of? Couldn't find him on the roster/depth chart.

DocBar
07-29-2011, 08:18 PM
Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.What do you see in his game that makes you think he will stay terrible? Ya know, there was this DB named Bo Orlando who played for the Oilers. He sucked pretty bad his 1st season, but turned out to be pretty OK. Of course, I'm a realist/optimist.
:kitten:

DocBar
07-29-2011, 08:24 PM
It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.
:spit::faildetector:
You mean like HWNNBM, TJ, Jason Babin and AO? Hell that's 40% of our 1st rounders that are busts.

EllisUnit
07-29-2011, 08:30 PM
I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.

Yes BUT you dont go into the season depending on that player. Not even as a #2 CB. You work him at Nickle so he can gain experience but isnt always depended on to hold his man.

EllisUnit
07-29-2011, 08:34 PM
What do you see in his game that makes you think he will stay terrible? Ya know, there was this DB named Bo Orlando who played for the Oilers. He sucked pretty bad his 1st season, but turned out to be pretty OK. Of course, I'm a realist/optimist.
:kitten:

He is saying that more times than not a players first season is a good picture of what you will get out of the player seasons after his rookie year. Dont get me wrong some guys suck and come back and become Hall Of Famers, But more times than not they arent in the NFL 3-5 years later. Even First Rounders.

DocBar
07-29-2011, 08:45 PM
He is saying that more times than not a players first season is a good picture of what you will get out of the player seasons after his rookie year. Dont get me wrong some guys suck and come back and become Hall Of Famers, But more times than not they arent in the NFL 3-5 years later. Even First Rounders.I don't buy that. I think the vast majority of rookies struggle their 1st season. By no means as bad as KJ did, but he was done wrong by the coaching staff last season. There's a reason why everyone says that a players biggest leap is from year 1 to year 2.
There's also a reason you don't judge a draft for 3 years. Most players need a year or 2 for the game to slow down for them and get to where they can handle the situation.
I'm also in the camp that thinks KJ should NOT be our #2 to start the season, unless he earns it.
The Texans have been so historically bad that 1st rounders are expected to start and make an impact. If you watch the teams that are perennial winners, they play their 1st rounders less and don't particularly expect them to come in and be a superstar. They have the depth and talent to not have to.

buddyboy
07-29-2011, 08:50 PM
He is saying that more times than not a players first season is a good picture of what you will get out of the player seasons after his rookie year. Dont get me wrong some guys suck and come back and become Hall Of Famers, But more times than not they arent in the NFL 3-5 years later. Even First Rounders.

True, I'd say usually what a rookie shows his rookie season he'll probably mirror to a degree the rest of his career. But what's important to note about Kareem was that he was part of a historically bad defense.

A rookie thrown into a defense whose pass rush didn't pass rush and whose safeties weren't covering makes it a recipe for disaster.

Putting rookie X in a defense surrounded by talent and having help over the top and having to cover his guy for that split second less will succeed more often than rookie Y described above.

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 09:14 PM
True, I'd say usually what a rookie shows his rookie season he'll probably mirror to a degree the rest of his career. But what's important to note about Kareem was that he was part of a historically bad defense.

I don't agree about rookies showing what they're going to be in their rookie seasons. There are lots of counter examples.

Norg
07-29-2011, 09:20 PM
I hope none of our rookies are givin the starting JOb even JJ watt who else we got ????

Maybe at least have JJ watt share time with Mark Anderson he played good for us last year IMO

and Jason allen should share time with Jackson this Dude had like 6 INT last year

badboy
07-29-2011, 09:24 PM
I don't buy that. I think the vast majority of rookies struggle their 1st season. By no means as bad as KJ did, but he was done wrong by the coaching staff last season. There's a reason why everyone says that a players biggest leap is from year 1 to year 2.
There's also a reason you don't judge a draft for 3 years. Most players need a year or 2 for the game to slow down for them and get to where they can handle the situation.
I'm also in the camp that thinks KJ should NOT be our #2 to start the season, unless he earns it.
The Texans have been so historically bad that 1st rounders are expected to start and make an impact. If you watch the teams that are perennial winners, they play their 1st rounders less and don't particularly expect them to come in and be a superstar. They have the depth and talent to not have to.Good post DocBar. I will be judging KJ on how he listens to DB coach and adapts. He has too many skills to fail unless it is between his ears. He should be devastated emotionally; but that will have to be proven to me. Brandon Harris will push Jackson or pull him. KJ will benefit either way. I have Texans going corner again in 2012 on my mock. Hopefully that will not be needed. But I think we clear out some more CBs between now and April.

hradhak
07-29-2011, 09:27 PM
I don't know that the CB spot should be just given to KJ. I'd like to see him, Allen, and whoever else fight for the spot. If nothing else, it'll make him a better CB to learn the ropes and be challenged.

KJ was put into a bad situation and wasn't given the support he needed. Right now, I'd rather see him in nickel situations until he really learns the defense. The lockout made all of this worse since he didn't have as much time to get his learn on with the new defensive coaching staff.

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 09:38 PM
I don't know that the CB spot should be just given to KJ.

I think it's going to be a war for that CB2 spot. I don't think KJ is going to be given anything.

buddyboy
07-29-2011, 09:55 PM
I don't agree about rookies showing what they're going to be in their rookie seasons. There are lots of counter examples.

I agree, the league is littered with examples of players who had the lights suddenly turn on.

But I honestly think there's way more players who were drafted high, underperformed, and slowly faded away to a shell of their expectations.

It's much easier to remember the guys who became great players than it is to remember players who never played up to expectations.

mussop
07-29-2011, 10:02 PM
:spit::faildetector:
You mean like HWNNBM, TJ, Jason Babin and AO? Hell that's 40% of our 1st rounders that are busts.

Babin has turned out to be a pretty decent player, just not with us.

fiasco west
07-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Jackson IS getting the benefit of the doubt-- he started as a rookie and kept his job even after he proved ineffective, and he'll get the chance to start this year as well. Nobody thought Mario was a "bust" after his first year, certainly not on the level of Jackson. Okoye got some sacks early in his first year, but I don't think anybody thought he was "pretty good," promising maybe, but it wasn't like his first year performance was some crazy aberration.

Jackson was historically bad his first year. Not mediocre, not disappointing, not overmatched, but historically bad. Find ten rookie corners (hell, ten rookies at any non-skill position) who had comparably awful seasons, and I'd highly doubt any of them turned into anything decent. The excuses are valid, but but how far can they really go?

Man there weren't many people after year 1 that said "The Texans did right by picking Mario." I met few people who thought that. Most thought Bush or Young should have been taken EVEN Texan fans. When you are the #1 pick and people think anyone else should have been drafted in that spot that is a bust.

Okoye had a great rookie year for a DT, a position Rookies sometimes struggle in.

Jackson was horribly bad but are you putting the blame solely on him? I think it was the entire secondary that was horrible, including the coaching which only made the problem worse. You aren't going to find rookie corners that had as bad a year as KJ. True. But you also aren't going to find as many that were thrown into the fire.

Again, Kareem wasn't the only defender having a bad season.

:spit::faildetector:
You mean like HWNNBM, TJ, Jason Babin and AO? Hell that's 40% of our 1st rounders that are busts.

Actually I meant in Rick Smith's era only. Not Casserly, I've since forgotten those years. I should have clarified but I thought it was a given since we are talking about the current regime and not one years ago.

In Rick Smith's era he has only really bust on one pick and that is Okoye. Everyone else has become starters on this team.

Yes BUT you dont go into the season depending on that player. Not even as a #2 CB. You work him at Nickle so he can gain experience but isnt always depended on to hold his man.

I completely agree. I didn't say depend on Kareem or anything of the sort. He should earn his job. My main thing was the thought that we should give up on KJ and just give him away.

DocBar
07-29-2011, 10:17 PM
Babin has turned out to be a pretty decent player, just not with us. meh...he's had one good year. Babin (http://www.nfl.com/player/jasonbabin/2505900/profile)

TexCanada
07-29-2011, 10:21 PM
Jason Allen must have the inside track to that 2nd spot. However, he will have to play well to keep it.

The make or break things for this D will be the ability to get pressure on the QB, and also quinn's ability to transition to FS.

BullNation4Life
07-29-2011, 10:23 PM
It was his rookie year. Nnamdi wasn't very good his rookie year either, along with many CBs. Still it was his rookie year, there is a NFL rule that you don't judge players until they have played 3 years in the NFL. If you did base him on one year, might as well get rid of Mario too.

Lets also remember that if Kareem made a mistake, it was magnified because there was literally NO safety help at all.

Revis his rookie year had pretty much the same stats and looked lost at times...

I wanna see Jackson on a defense with a competent DC, in which Wade is. Then I'll make my judgements...

BullNation4Life
07-29-2011, 10:24 PM
Babin has turned out to be a pretty decent player, just not with us.

I am waiting for Babin to get hit with a 4 game ban for "over training" No other explanation for his immediate uprising this late in his career....

DocBar
07-29-2011, 10:29 PM
I am waiting for Babin to get hit with a 4 game ban for "over training" No other explanation for his immediate uprising this late in his career....I don't know about that. Maybe he finally found the right scheme and right personnel around him. I mean look at where he played.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 10:41 PM
I don't buy that. I think the vast majority of rookies struggle their 1st season. By no means as bad as KJ did, but he was done wrong by the coaching staff last season. There's a reason why everyone says that a players biggest leap is from year 1 to year 2.
There's also a reason you don't judge a draft for 3 years. Most players need a year or 2 for the game to slow down for them and get to where they can handle the situation.
I'm also in the camp that thinks KJ should NOT be our #2 to start the season, unless he earns it.
The Texans have been so historically bad that 1st rounders are expected to start and make an impact. If you watch the teams that are perennial winners, they play their 1st rounders less and don't particularly expect them to come in and be a superstar. They have the depth and talent to not have to.

Of course most rookies struggle their first seasons, as people tend to get better at things with experience, especially something like the NFL with its rigorous strength, speed, and conditioning standards. But that truth is not, in and of itself, a reason to think that a bad player will suddenly become a good one. If you look back at bad 1st and 2nd round rookie corners (and defenders overall), very few of them turn out to be productive pros, much less pro-bowlers. That's a fact, not my opinion. As for Jackson himself, did you really see ANYTHING from him last year that makes you think he's going to turn it around? I'm not talking about who his coaches were or who was playing safety, I'm talking about his play specifically. He didn't show great speed, didn't show great hips, didn't show great ball instincts, didn't show an aggressive attitude, etc. On top of that, he wasn't injured as far as I know, and he didn't appear to improve as the year went along.

The only counter-argument I hear (aside from the wishful thinking, logical fallacies I've already debunked) is his first round pedigree and that everybody else on his side of the ball (including the coaches) was terrible also. This first round pedigree argument conveniently ignores that the front office has been average at best in evaluating defensive talent, and "the whole defense was terrible" argument ignores Jackson's major role in that defense being so bad. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and will happily come on here and admit it when I am.

bo orlando
07-29-2011, 10:47 PM
Revis his rookie year had pretty much the same stats and looked lost at times...

I wanna see Jackson on a defense with a competent DC, in which Wade is. Then I'll make my judgements...


I don't remember seeing Revis his rookie year, or what stats you're referring to, but I highly doubt he was anywhere near as bad as Jackson was last year.

DocBar
07-29-2011, 10:47 PM
Of course most rookies struggle their first seasons, as people tend to get better at things with experience, especially something like the NFL with its rigorous strength, speed, and conditioning standards. But that truth is not, in and of itself, a reason to think that a bad player will suddenly become a good one. If you look back at bad 1st and 2nd round rookie corners (and defenders overall), very few of them turn out to be productive pros, much less pro-bowlers. That's a fact, not my opinion. As for Jackson himself, did you really see ANYTHING from him last year that makes you think he's going to turn it around? I'm not talking about who his coaches were or who was playing safety, I'm talking about his play specifically. He didn't show great speed, didn't show great hips, didn't show great ball instincts, didn't show an aggressive attitude, etc. On top of that, he wasn't injured as far as I know, and he didn't appear to improve as the year went along.

The only counter-argument I hear (aside from the wishful thinking, logical fallacies I've already debunked) is his first round pedigree and that everybody else on his side of the ball (including the coaches) was terrible also. This first round pedigree argument conveniently ignores that the front office has been average at best in evaluating defensive talent, and "the whole defense was terrible" argument ignores Jackson's major role in that defense being so bad. So when I don't believe that he's going to turn it around, it's not a case of my "giving up on him." I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and will happily come on here and admit it when I am.Very nice post. I'm trying to come up with something and struggling. That kind of proves your point. Having said that, I'm for seeing what he does this season. If he starts, I hope it's based on merit and not his draft position. The Texans have been plagued by starting players based on that.

The Pencil Neck
07-29-2011, 10:59 PM
Jackson IS getting the benefit of the doubt-- he started as a rookie and kept his job even after he proved ineffective, and he'll get the chance to start this year as well. Nobody thought Mario was a "bust" after his first year, certainly not on the level of Jackson. Okoye got some sacks early in his first year, but I don't think anybody thought he was "pretty good," promising maybe, but it wasn't like his first year performance was some crazy aberration.

Jackson was historically bad his first year. Not mediocre, not disappointing, not overmatched, but historically bad. Find ten rookie corners (hell, ten rookies at any non-skill position) who had comparably awful seasons, and I'd highly doubt any of them turned into anything decent. The excuses are valid, but but how far can they really go?

You should go check out the posts that 76Texan made breaking down plays. A lot of the plays that people blame on Jackson and his poor performance weren't his fault (including a play where he was expecting inside help from a safety who wasn't even on the field.) A rookie CB needs good safety support and he did not get it.

Did he have a great rookie season? No, he didn't. But he didn't play as epically bad as a lot of people (including you) think he did. He did a lot of things good.

Will he be our CB2? I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if we pick up another CB in FA and let some of the failed experiments from the previous DB coaches go. Whatever happens, I don't think the position is going to be given to him.

76Texan
07-29-2011, 11:07 PM
EU, you must realize that boorlando is telling you that Jason Allen shouldn't even be on the roster.

He's saying that we have a major hole at #2, which is Jackson.
Therfore, Jason Allen must be worse than terrible.

Both of you agreed that a player who showed up bad early, most likely ends up bad.
Allen was a higher draft pick, and he can't hardly get on the playing field the first year.
But when he did, boy, did he tear it up.
The Dolphins went 1-15 and gave up 437 points; yeah I know what you two mean, historically bad!

And then when they put him on the bench the next year, they rebounded to 11-5.

Boy, the Texans certainly have a huge hole at #3, don't they?

MEGA SWATT
07-29-2011, 11:44 PM
looks really good. I can't wait for the season to start:fans:

bo orlando
07-30-2011, 12:03 AM
EU, you must realize that boorlando is telling you that Jason Allen shouldn't even be on the roster.

He's saying that we have a major hole at #2, which is Jackson.
Therfore, Jason Allen must be worse than terrible.

Both of you agreed that a player who showed up bad early, most likely ends up bad.
Allen was a higher draft pick, and he can't hardly get on the playing field the first year.
But when he did, boy, did he tear it up.
The Dolphins went 1-15 and gave up 437 points; yeah I know what you two mean, historically bad!

And then when they put him on the bench the next year, they rebounded to 11-5.

Boy, the Texans certainly have a huge hole at #3, don't they?


Talking about all this makes it even more mystifying to me that last year's front office and coaching staff thought the team could make the playoffs with a rookie corner, an unproven second year corner, and a journeyman free safety coming off injury. In theory, there should have been no less FA urgency last offseason as this one.

76Texan
07-30-2011, 12:16 AM
Talking about all this makes it even more mystifying to me that last year's front office and coaching staff thought the team could make the playoffs with a rookie corner, an unproven second year corner, and a journeyman free safety coming off injury. In theory, there should have been no less FA urgency last offseason as this one.

The last three years, all I concentrated on was the secondary during the off-season (even during the season.) If only you were here during those times!

DocBar
07-30-2011, 02:00 AM
Talking about all this makes it even more mystifying to me that last year's front office and coaching staff thought the team could make the playoffs with a rookie corner, an unproven second year corner, and a journeyman free safety coming off injury. In theory, there should have been no less FA urgency last offseason as this one.

There was plenty of concern here. Unfortunately Mr. McNair doesn't consult us very often.

leebigeztx
07-30-2011, 08:37 AM
To me, why not ge another real safety, a real nt,and a real 2nd wr? I mean, let's start at safety. Quinn might can play safety, but hough and whitner are true safeties. Its one thing to say quinn can play because he's not that good of a corner, but he's a young guy that will have to get used to seeing things develop in front of him. That's bigger than what the average football fan thinks. The teaser routes and layered routes laid down in front of him is really challenging. One false step and it could be a big play for the offense.

At nose, they have a smallish guy in mitchell and a try hard guy in cody. Now I know and watched ratliff and he had a couple of good years, but I also saw him get washed out against baltimore on the 2 long runs and in the playoffs against seattle. If we look at the best 3-4 teams, look at their nt's. Ngata,hampton, raji,wilfolk,and when wade was in sd, he had williams. All of those guys are 330 or better and immovable objects. With guys like franklin, gregge and even williams still out there, why not get a fr sure thing vs hoping a guy can do it.

Lastly, 2nd wr. I know the idea the offense isn't the problem, but at times the offense is the problem. The texans have struggled when teams have rolled to andre and had enough to stop the run game. When that happens, the texans don't have a wr who can whip the 2nd cb and take the coverage off andre. Edwards or moss can do that. Edwards may be too rich for the blood, but moss opposite of andre would be downright scary. No matter what people say, teams still account for randy with a man and a half. This unrolls the covrage off andre and the running game. It opens alleys for daniels also. 3wr set with moss,jones,johnson would put teams in a pickle defensively.

I like what they have done, but they should close the holes to make a superbowl run vs just trying to make a playoff run imo.

Rey
07-30-2011, 08:42 AM
You can't go out and sign all those people.

Mario and foster have contracts that will need to be dealt with next year.

You have to be able to rely on guys that are already here and who ever you draft next year.

leebigeztx
07-30-2011, 08:52 AM
You can't go out and sign all those people.

Mario and foster have contracts that will need to be dealt with next year.

You have to be able to rely on guys that are already here and who ever you draft next year.

When mario re-do his deal, it will open cap space and don't tell me what u can't do, tell me what u can do. Some of those guys will be cheap and the market is falling for some. The cheifs just signed gregg so he's off the market. Moss will cost about 5m per yr, franklin about 6 per yr. Hough or whitner will be at about 5 also. If the were clearing money for nmandi, then they can do the same to close up holes. They have holes, big holes.

Rey
07-30-2011, 08:58 AM
When mario re-do his deal, it will open cap space and don't tell me what u can't do, tell me what u can do. Some of those guys will be cheap and the market is falling for some. The cheifs just signed gregg so he's off the market. Moss will cost about 5m per yr, franklin about 6 per yr. Hough or whitner will be at about 5 also. If the were clearing money for nmandi, then they can do the same to close up holes. They have holes, big holes.

Ok.

I'm just telling you why I think they can't go out and sign up a whole bunch of people.

We have yet to sign our own draft picks.

And Mario and foster could get cap friendly deals next year, but they will both cost some money if they perform at a high level like expected.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 09:54 AM
My only concern is Quin at the FS position. I know he was decent as a corner opposite Dunta, but FS is a little different and it's knowing where to be instead of who to cover in some sense.

I think he's got the physical gift, it's just going to be interesting to see if he has the instincts.

Quin is a baller. You've seen him play for 2 years & you have questions about his insticts? Kids got excellent instincts.

IMO, he is a guy you have to keep on the field because of those instincts, but you're not a world class team with him as a starting CB.

He's a smart football player with the skills to play tough-nosed corner.. lacking slightly in talent... He should make an excellent FS.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 09:56 AM
If Ryans and Barwin can stay healthy,

Mitchell can play the nose at a decent level.

The DE's stay healthy. However if all of this comes together the Texans will be in the playoffs. Remember though the Texans finished 15th on defense in 2009, Schaub threw for 4800 yds and the Texans still didn't make the playoffs.

But it's a great day to be a Texans fan. BoB finally decided he wanted to sit at the big boys table.

If something were to happen to Watt or Antonio, I wonder what their back-up plan is.

I hope it is to drop Mario to DE and move Reed or Anderson up to a starting spot.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Check my sig.

We've got some answers at least instead of some....."well this SHOULD work/be ok" kind of set up.

Pass rush oughtta be sick. Sending 4 plain jane or all 7 coming hot, I believe they've got the guys to get to anyone. Speed to the edges too, any decent running attempts will be up the middle where hopefully Demeco will be janitor deluxe cleaning that shit up! There is a weakness up the middle but with the improved front 7 and my goodness, what seems on paper to be a REAL NFL secondary? There shouldn't be a whole helluva lot of time to throw. We may see a team or two break the D and run it all over them but honestly, I'm excited to see what this D can do because it sounds an awful lot like raising hell. And I'm a man who enjoys hell raising.

I watched the Eagles game again a few days ago. On one scoring drive, the Eagles went 60 yards in 6 plays. One play was a 39 yard screen to Leshaun McCoy. The other was a 3rd & 19 yard pick-up to their tight-end, with Brian Cushing (a true SAM) covering him.

LeShaun McCoy was their leading receiver, followed by DeShaun Jackson. They killed us with screens and running free across the middle of the field.

I'm just saying.

Jackie Chiles
07-30-2011, 10:19 AM
When mario re-do his deal, it will open cap space and don't tell me what u can't do, tell me what u can do. Some of those guys will be cheap and the market is falling for some. The cheifs just signed gregg so he's off the market. Moss will cost about 5m per yr, franklin about 6 per yr. Hough or whitner will be at about 5 also. If the were clearing money for nmandi, then they can do the same to close up holes. They have holes, big holes.

Hes getting to be an old man and I believe he has a 4 game suspension coming his way but I would love to see us grab Pat Williams on a cheap 1 year contract. He can still anchor and be a two-down/rotational NT.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 10:20 AM
Not saying he's a runt but at 248 lbs he doesn't need to be taking on OG's. Thats what is going to be happening on most running plays if Mitchell is our starting DT. If we trade Antonio who do you start in his place?

In 2009, with the same DTs, Demeco & Cushing did a hella good job shutting down the run, slipping OGs & Centers....

We had the same complaints about our svelt DTs... didn't stop us from fielding one of our best defenses ever. With Frank Bush pulling the strings.

All I'm saying, is maybe, just maybe, Wade Phillips knows WTF he's doing.

IDEXAN
07-30-2011, 10:29 AM
That's still a very young defense with all projected starters under 30 years of age.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 10:42 AM
It's pretty poor logic to suggest that Player X may have been terrible his first year but Good Player Y wasn't that great either, so Player X will still be good. That's like saying that some random practice squad running back will become an all-pro because Arian Foster did it. I'm sure if you look at a list of first year corners who played at historically bad levels, most probably never even rose to the level of mediocrity. That's not saying Jackson can't turn it around, especially with different coaches, but it's foolish not to think the most probable result will be continued bad play and/or lost job.

Does anyone remember what DRC looked like as a rookie? He was thrown in as a starter pretty early in his career as well (11 games). I wouldn't say he sucked, but he did look bad... actually, he looked like a rookie starting too early in his career.

Probably didn't get too much press about it, because
1) everybody knew he was a rookie
2) most people understand CB is one of the hardest positions to learn
3) the Cardinals had a pretty good defense back then they had another decent corner & a great safety.

Now he is regarded as one of the better corners in this league.

But you're right, just because Aso got better as an NFL corner doesn't mean that Kareem Jackson would.

But watching Kareem, he's gotten better & better as the year went on. As expected.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:04 AM
The only thing that bugs me is, that the Eagles got Aso relatively cheap (12 million per year) while we got JJ a little over his market value (almost 10 million a year) - the difference is too small to be absolutely thrilled.

What is the going rate for a starting CB in this league?

We paid Dunta Robinson almost $10M when we franchised him two years back. That is the average salary of the 5 highest paid CBs in the league.

Question... is Johnathan Joseph a top 5 cornerback in this league?
-maybe not

Dunta got $9.75M last year. I think Joseph is better than Dunta.

I wonder what Ike Taylor got. I would imagine less, but not by much.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:08 AM
I share the same set of worries you have about our LBs. Two of the four are damaged - three if you think Cushing won't be the same while not on the sauce. Big question mark regarding what level they'll be able to play at. I love him to death mind you but Ryans wasn't superb in coverage pre-achilles injury. Who knows how that will affect his ability to keep up with the Dallas Clark types.

I don't believe that Brooks will be affected by us changing defenses; since he's just starting out, he doesn't have anything to UN-learn from last year's defensive... thing (can't call it a scheme since that assumes some sort of thought process).

So imagine you are Wade Phillips. What do you do?

If you decided to stay with what you got, what would lead you to think that. Remember, you've had very little contact with your players, and everything you know now, you knew before the Draft & FA.

LikeMike
07-30-2011, 11:13 AM
What is the going rate for a starting CB in this league?

We paid Dunta Robinson almost $10M when we franchised him two years back. That is the average salary of the 5 highest paid CBs in the league.

Question... is Johnathan Joseph a top 5 cornerback in this league?
-maybe not

Dunta got $9.75M last year. I think Joseph is better than Dunta.

I wonder what Ike Taylor got. I would imagine less, but not by much.

No question, Dunta is way overpaid... A couple of weeks ago Joseph`s agent stated, that he is looking for around 8 million per year, that`s what I based my slightly above market value on.

But don`t get me wrong - Im thrilled that we got him. Id say he is a top10 cornerback in the league, but he will make our secondary way better, by pushing every other corner 1 spot back. Add to that some safety help for a change, heck we might even have someone on the team by now that can cover a TE... We won`t be a top10 defense next year - but a top15 defense and a top5-10 offense should cause some damage next year.

TexCanada
07-30-2011, 11:18 AM
No question, Dunta is way overpaid... A couple of weeks ago Joseph`s agent stated, that he is looking for around 8 million per year, that`s what I based my slightly above market value on.

But don`t get me wrong - Im thrilled that we got him. Id say he is a top10 cornerback in the league, but he will make our secondary way better, by pushing every other corner 1 spot back. Add to that some safety help for a change, heck we might even have someone on the team by now that can cover a TE... We won`t be a top10 defense next year - but a top15 defense and a top5-10 offense should cause some damage next year.

Exactly, if Wade can get us a top 15 defense, and the O continues as it has, that will equal playoffs for sure.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Yes BUT you dont go into the season depending on that player. Not even as a #2 CB. You work him at Nickle so he can gain experience but isnt always depended on to hold his man.

He'll compete with Allen & Harris for the #2 CB spot.

If he starts as our #2, it would be because he earned it.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:26 AM
He is saying that more times than not a players first season is a good picture of what you will get out of the player seasons after his rookie year. Dont get me wrong some guys suck and come back and become Hall Of Famers, But more times than not they arent in the NFL 3-5 years later. Even First Rounders.

76Texan has two threads with plenty of visual evidence showing that Kareem was bad, but not as bad as the fans think he is. The piss poor defense (that he was a part of) helped him look worse than he actually was.

He's solid in zone recognition.

He's solid shedding blocks.

He's solid in tackling.

He is fast enough, tall enough, and strong enough.

If he had half the help he should have, his season would have been mediocre, understandable, not bad considering.

If our intentions were to make him a number 1 CB I would still be worried. But as a possible #2, I'm not worried.

leebigeztx
07-30-2011, 11:31 AM
:specnatz:Exactly, if Wade can get us a top 15 defense, and the O continues as it has, that will equal playoffs for sure.

So all u want is to make the playoffs? If u give wade avg talent, u will get avg results. In the last 4 yrs, his defense in dallas have given up 22,20,15,and 27ppg. So say he get the txans to 20ppg and the offense is at 24 like last yr, is that a threat to do anything seriously?

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:32 AM
Babin has turned out to be a pretty decent player, just not with us.

Babin had one good year after 7 not so good years.

What are the odds that he's all of a sudden elite?

What are the odds that he found away around the random drug tests?

All I'm saying, is lets see how he does in 2011 before we close the book on Jason Babin.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't remember seeing Revis his rookie year, or what stats you're referring to, but I highly doubt he was anywhere near as bad as Jackson was last year.

He's an undersized DE. All he's got is speed. He's not freaky athletic, not exceptionally strong for his size, doesn't have any patented signature moves.....

What, he all of a sudden got faster in his 8th season?

Happens all the time.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 11:55 AM
Talking about all this makes it even more mystifying to me that last year's front office and coaching staff thought the team could make the playoffs with a rookie corner, an unproven second year corner, and a journeyman free safety coming off injury. In theory, there should have been no less FA urgency last offseason as this one.

Their mistake was not thinking that we would make it with young corners.

Their mistake was not allowing the players do what they know how to do.

All our players, including our defensive secondary are down hill players. They play facing the QB, & they are all waiting for him to make a mistake. That's how they were selected. Zone Corners, excelling in stopping the run. Undersized, fast, instinctive LBs (with the exception of Cushing, he's the only LB we drafted with such a physical presence). Small penetrating defensive linemen.

In 2009, the coaches finally stopped worrying about all the stuff that could go wrong & let them play an aggressive, dictating defense.

Brian Cushing was supposed to miss the first 4 games. We were starting a rookie as our #1 corner back. We started to play the season trying to cover up these weaknesses. We played Peyton, McNabb, & Romo in our first 4 weeks.

Then we lost Demeco.

Instead of getting back to what made them successful in 2009, they kept trying to perfect a style of defense they didn't have the people for.

mussop
07-30-2011, 03:14 PM
In 2009, with the same DTs, Demeco & Cushing did a hella good job shutting down the run, slipping OGs & Centers....

We had the same complaints about our svelt DTs... didn't stop us from fielding one of our best defenses ever. With Frank Bush pulling the strings.

All I'm saying, is maybe, just maybe, Wade Phillips knows WTF he's doing.

Yeh but now Meco has one less DT in front of him and hes coming off a major injury. All Im saying is its been proven over and ovcer again that having a big guy in the middle to tie up centers and guards would do nothing but help our LB's be that much better.

mussop
07-30-2011, 03:25 PM
:specnatz:

So all u want is to make the playoffs? If u give wade avg talent, u will get avg results. In the last 4 yrs, his defense in dallas have given up 22,20,15,and 27ppg. So say he get the txans to 20ppg and the offense is at 24 like last yr, is that a threat to do anything seriously?

You know our secondary was so bad last year that people are forgetting that we weren't exactly good at stopping the run or getting pressure on the QB either. Its going to take more than getting 2 FA's in the secondary, adding a rookie and changing the scheme to make this defense good enough to take us to the Super-bowl. Of course some here would just be happy with making the playoffs. I guess 10 years of getting sand kicked in you're face will do that to some.

The Pencil Neck
07-30-2011, 03:49 PM
You know our secondary was so bad last year that people are forgetting that we weren't exactly good at stopping the run or getting pressure on the QB either. Its going to take more than getting 2 FA's in the secondary, adding a rookie and changing the scheme to make this defense good enough to take us to the Super-bowl. Of course some here would just be happy with making the playoffs. I guess 10 years of getting sand kicked in you're face will do that to some.

10 years? What are you talking about? I was an Oiler fan before I was a Texan fan. 49 years of getting sand kicked in your face and your teams not winning any championships in your living memory lets you realize that you need to make the playoffs before you can make the Super Bowl.

LikeMike
07-30-2011, 03:53 PM
You know our secondary was so bad last year that people are forgetting that we weren't exactly good at stopping the run or getting pressure on the QB either. Its going to take more than getting 2 FA's in the secondary, adding a rookie and changing the scheme to make this defense good enough to take us to the Super-bowl. Of course some here would just be happy with making the playoffs. I guess 10 years of getting sand kicked in you're face will do that to some.

Although you got a point, I will still try to argue with you here a litte:

We also were bad against the run, because we had to give the secondary all the help we could get. We were bad at getting at the QB because he could get rid of the ball within 2-3 seconds. That all should improve with our new guys.

And don`t forget, Watt, Reed and Barwin should improve us against the QB - Watt and Ryans against the run.

And yes - me, Id be perfectly happy with just making the playoffs. Get that out of the way this season, and let`s attack the SB next season.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 04:33 PM
Yeh but now Meco has one less DT in front of him and hes coming off a major injury. All Im saying is its been proven over and ovcer again that having a big guy in the middle to tie up centers and guards would do nothing but help our LB's be that much better.

Even though we're calling him a DE right now, the weakside DE is playing just like a 4-3 DT. He'll have the same two guys in front of him as he's always had (with the exception of Watt)

If the injury is the problem, let's address the injury. Doesn't make sense to fix the DL because you have an injured LB.

Back in 2009, it was still Demeco, Cushing, & Diles making tackles in the back field.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. It's more about execution than philosophy. This is the philosophy Wade has chosen to go with, get on board.

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 04:43 PM
You know our secondary was so bad last year that people are forgetting that we weren't exactly good at stopping the run or getting pressure on the QB either. Its going to take more than getting 2 FA's in the secondary, adding a rookie and changing the scheme to make this defense good enough to take us to the Super-bowl. Of course some here would just be happy with making the playoffs. I guess 10 years of getting sand kicked in you're face will do that to some.

Well, we can only hope to one day become a fan of your stature.


:kitten:

BigBull17
07-30-2011, 05:13 PM
The only problem I see with that lineup is Earl Mitchell at NT, 291 lbs. is awfully light for a NT and makes us weak in the middle and susceptible to the run. I'm thinking Shawn Cody starts at NT or we go after a NT in FA.

This. I think Cody starts at NT, with Earl being a pass rush type guy. The one thing about having a smallish nose is we have a pretty big front other than that. With Mario (290ish) and Reed/Barwin (260+) and Cushing at MLB(265) that's a big LB group that can help shore up the front 7. Also, ability means a little more than size, IMO. Football ability goes farther than just being a fat guy.

mussop
07-30-2011, 05:17 PM
Well, we can only hope to one day become a fan of your stature.


:kitten:

Not sure what you mean by this. ??????

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 05:42 PM
Not sure what you mean by this. ??????

I guess 10 years of getting sand kicked in you're face will do that to some.

I just felt this was a little condescending. Some of us aren't up to your standard.

mussop
07-30-2011, 08:30 PM
I just felt this was a little condescending. Some of us aren't up to your standard.

Don't know how you came to that conclusion. Every year of our existence has been like getting sand kicked in OUR ( I'm a texan fan too) faces. Im tired of this team getting bullied and crushing our hopes every year only to do just enough to gain attention back and have it all happen again.

ObsiWan
07-30-2011, 09:29 PM
So imagine you are Wade Phillips. What do you do?

If you decided to stay with what you got, what would lead you to think that. Remember, you've had very little contact with your players, and everything you know now, you knew before the Draft & FA.
not sure what you're asking me to decide

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 10:04 PM
not sure what you're asking me to decide

Well, you agree we've got ILB questions right? If nothing else we've got an issue with depth. Diles is gone, Bentley doesn't show up on our roster (& honestly, if he did I'd want him off).

I'd want to bring some ILB into camp, look at a bunch of them and try to find a diamond if not a true stop-gap.

But we haven't done anything (that I know of) to address that Demeco's & Brian's best may not be good enough.

How good do you feel about Sharpton? Adibi? Keglar?

I scurred.

DocBar
07-30-2011, 10:13 PM
Well, you agree we've got ILB questions right? If nothing else we've got an issue with depth. Diles is gone, Bentley doesn't show up on our roster (& honestly, if he did I'd want him off).

I'd want to bring some ILB into camp, look at a bunch of them and try to find a diamond if not a true stop-gap.

But we haven't done anything (that I know of) to address that Demeco's & Brian's best may not be good enough.

How good do you feel about Sharpton? Adibi? Keglar?

I scurred.I'm worried about ILB, but it's mainly because of Ryan's injury and depth. Keglar did ok last season. So did Sharpton. I would add 1 or 2 FA's as depth and put Ryans on PUP til week 6.

Rey
07-30-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm worried about ILB, but it's mainly because of Ryan's injury and depth. Keglar did ok last season. So did Sharpton. I would add 1 or 2 FA's as depth and put Ryans on PUP til week 6.

You don't want to see how he looks first?

thunderkyss
07-30-2011, 10:27 PM
You don't want to see how he looks first?

I do, but there's a lot riding on the season.

I'd have made a run a Pulshoweveryouspellhisnamesky.

I wouldn't put Demeco on the PUP until I had to, but I would have a better plan B in place before going into camp.

Rey
07-30-2011, 10:55 PM
I do, but there's a lot riding on the season.

I'd have made a run a Pulshoweveryouspellhisnamesky.

I wouldn't put Demeco on the PUP until I had to, but I would have a better plan B in place before going into camp.

Poslunsky would have wanted to be a starter.

If we sign him are you moving Cush outside?

Honestly, I am fine with sharpton being the primary back up. Time for Cushing to grow the hell up. He needs to be able to play with or without demeco in the game.

I just don't see how you can invest a whole lot more into the lb's corps than what we already have.

3 second round picks, 2 first rounders, and wasn't sharpton a fourth? Adibi hasn't done anything really, but he was a fourth rounder too right?

We brought in a promising udfa. Maybe they can pick up a vet on the cheap once things get rolling, but if they don't the guys we have should be able to get it done.

DocBar
07-30-2011, 11:06 PM
Poslunsky would have wanted to be a starter.

If we sign him are you moving Cush outside?

Honestly, I am fine with sharpton being the primary back up. Time for Cushing to grow the hell up. He needs to be able to play with or without demeco in the game.

I just don't see how you can invest a whole lot more into the lb's corps than what we already have.

3 second round picks, 2 first rounders, and wasn't sharpton a fourth? Adibi hasn't done anything really, but he was a fourth rounder too right?

We brought in a promising udfa. Maybe they can pick up a vet on the cheap once things get rolling, but if they don't the guys we have should be able to get it done.Why would you assume we move Cushing when Ryans is coming off of a potentially career ending/limiting injury? Cushing is just coming off the juice.

thunderkyss
07-31-2011, 06:18 AM
Why would you assume we move Cushing when Ryans is coming off of a potentially career ending/limiting injury? Cushing is just coming off the juice.

Because if Demeco is 100% or at least productive enough to start, he stays on the field.

& you're not moving him outside. Cushing would do better outside than Demeco.

& Rey, yes, I would move Cushing to SAM, Connor to WLB, put Mario back on the line.

If Demeco is hurting us more than helping, He goes to the PUP & we'll try again next year.

Trail.Blazr
07-31-2011, 09:43 AM
What are we fielding this year that says the comatose rush from years past will up and sing a different tune? As I see random posts of how our pass rush will be good, I still fail to see it

Does anyone remember the last time the texans staple was the 3-4? Did they get a decent pass rush then? How about run support?

Did we not have issues with not having any good play from the nose? I don't see any comfort in who we can debate on that spot today.

Did we not have depth issues at LB? I am very fearful of Meco and Cush... VERY for obvious reasons.

Secondary - compared to last year, with the additions of the past week, shows promise of being competent at least. I think we're all looking forward to witnessing the results, but until I've seen it.... At the very least it seems reasonable to assume it can't be worse than last season.

I think we still have problems. The center of this Defense is very suspect from the line on back. And with a shortened offseason, transitioning to the 3-4, we could very well come out of the gates poorly against the likes of some very credible offenses.

Help me feel better. What am I missing/failing to see?

Rey
07-31-2011, 10:09 AM
What are we fielding this year that says the comatose rush from years past will up and sing a different tune? As I see random posts of how our pass rush will be good, I still fail to see it

Does anyone remember the last time the texans staple was the 3-4? Did they get a decent pass rush then? How about run support?

Did we not have issues with not having any good play from the nose? I don't see any comfort in who we can debate on that spot today.

Did we not have depth issues at LB? I am very fearful of Meco and Cush... VERY for obvious reasons.

Secondary - compared to last year, with the additions of the past week, shows promise of being competent at least. I think we're all looking forward to witnessing the results, but until I've seen it.... At the very least it seems reasonable to assume it can't be worse than last season.

I think we still have problems. The center of this Defense is very suspect from the line on back. And with a shortened offseason, transitioning to the 3-4, we could very well come out of the gates poorly against the likes of some very credible offenses.

Help me feel better. What am I missing/failing to see?

Mario being matched up against te's and backs. Jj watt. Cushing is a good blitzer. Connor barwin basically missed all of last year and by us using the 34 will be on the field a lot more than he would have. Watts, reed. Antonio is active. No more amobi. Ear Mitchell has high hopes.

But the biggest addition is wade.

I don't think we have been severely lacking in talent over the past few years. Defense had more invested into it, yet the offense was more successful. We haven't had a competent defensive coach since capers.

With the staff we have now hopefully we look like an NFL caliber defense.

b0ng
07-31-2011, 10:16 AM
:specnatz:

So all u want is to make the playoffs? If u give wade avg talent, u will get avg results. In the last 4 yrs, his defense in dallas have given up 22,20,15,and 27ppg. So say he get the txans to 20ppg and the offense is at 24 like last yr, is that a threat to do anything seriously?

It depends on more than PPG leebigeztx.

If Wade's defense can generate enough turnovers to overcome what we give up on offense by more than +5 we are going to be lightyears ahead on defense from where we were last year, 2009 and so forth.

If our offense is getting more short fields from turnovers I can garuntee our PPG average will go up from last year.

Trail.Blazr
07-31-2011, 11:09 AM
Mario being matched up against te's and backs. Jj watt. Cushing is a good blitzer. Connor barwin basically missed all of last year and by us using the 34 will be on the field a lot more than he would have. Watts, reed. Antonio is active. No more amobi. Ear Mitchell has high hopes.

But the biggest addition is wade.

I don't think we have been severely lacking in talent over the past few years. Defense had more invested into it, yet the offense was more successful. We haven't had a competent defensive coach since capers.

With the staff we have now hopefully we look like an NFL caliber defense.

Mario - We'll see. I'll borrow your hopefully. Definately and experiment, but I have more faith in him than most anyone else.
Cushing - 2010 he was a shell of his 2009. Deservedly, he gets little confidence here, till proven otherwise.
Watt - Rookie. I can't judge, only hope.
Mitchell - you said it.. high hopes. This is a CRUCIAL position(as if others' arent)
Barwin - I'll concede that injury aside, his progress is on track
Meco - who knows... hopeful but I am not feelin it.

Wade - If there is any hope to hyping anyone else, it's due to Wade. I'll concede his presence alone should make a difference, but at the same time, following a line down the center of the D, I'm having flashbacks to the capers 3-4 problems.

DocBar
07-31-2011, 11:13 AM
Because if Demeco is 100% or at least productive enough to start, he stays on the field.

& you're not moving him outside. Cushing would do better outside than Demeco.

& Rey, yes, I would move Cushing to SAM, Connor to WLB, put Mario back on the line.

If Demeco is hurting us more than helping, He goes to the PUP & we'll try again next year.Most indicators would be against this. I would prefer to see him PUPed to start the season and give him a full year to rehab and heal. Just MHO.

Rey
07-31-2011, 11:30 AM
Most indicators would be against this. I would prefer to see him PUPed to start the season and give him a full year to rehab and heal. Just MHO.

I don't understand putting him on pup without having seen him do anything.

DocBar
07-31-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't understand putting him on pup without having seen him do anything.The more time you give him to rehab lessens the chances for reinjury. According to CnD and what I've read on the 'net, achilles injuries can be a bear and it's likely that Ryan will be doing good to come back at~80% of his pre-injury self. It's just my opinion that PUPing him would give a full year to recover. If it looks like he's fully healed after 6 weeks, you can activate him. If he isn't, leave him on the PUP. I would prefer to see a cautious approach. Losing Ryans for 10 games last year and 16 games this year is preferrable to losing him for ever.

thunderkyss
07-31-2011, 01:12 PM
The more time you give him to rehab lessens the chances for reinjury. According to CnD and what I've read on the 'net, achilles injuries can be a bear and it's likely that Ryan will be doing good to come back at~80% of his pre-injury self. It's just my opinion that PUPing him would give a full year to recover. If it looks like he's fully healed after 6 weeks, you can activate him. If he isn't, leave him on the PUP. I would prefer to see a cautious approach. Losing Ryans for 10 games last year and 16 games this year is preferrable to losing him for ever.

I think what Rey & I are saying is that camp just started today. The Texans haven't seen him on the field since Last October. Let's see what he looks like in camp. We should be able to determine before the season starts the best way to proceed.

My contention is that any decent replacement is already off the table, we should have signed someone or tried to prior to today.

Rey
07-31-2011, 01:31 PM
I think what Rey & I are saying is that camp just started today. The Texans haven't seen him on the field since Last October. Let's see what he looks like in camp. We should be able to determine before the season starts the best way to proceed.

My contention is that any decent replacement is already off the table, we should have signed someone or tried to prior to today.

This.

I think it's better to see where he's at so we know how to proceed.

SteveSlaton20
07-31-2011, 06:01 PM
Exactly, if Wade can get us a top 15 defense, and the O continues as it has, that will equal playoffs for sure.

the chargers were #1 in Offense AND Defense, and they failed to make the playoffs in a shitty division. And like someone already said, #15 defense is average and won't make us a threat in playoffs. Not to mention we have a NT who is undersized and small, and every top 10 defense had a 325+ pounds NT that are in a 3-4.

DocBar
07-31-2011, 06:58 PM
the chargers were #1 in Offense AND Defense, and they failed to make the playoffs in a shitty division. And like someone already said, #15 defense is average and won't make us a threat in playoffs. Not to mention we have a NT who is undersized and small, and every top 10 defense had a 325+ pounds NT that are in a 3-4.Look dude, don't come poppin in here trying to confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up.
:sarcasm:

fiasco west
07-31-2011, 07:42 PM
the chargers were #1 in Offense AND Defense, and they failed to make the playoffs in a shitty division. And like someone already said, #15 defense is average and won't make us a threat in playoffs. Not to mention we have a NT who is undersized and small, and every top 10 defense had a 325+ pounds NT that are in a 3-4.

Don't forget that their special teams were horrible and literally lost them some games.

The Chargers were mainly what you'd call a 'Anomaly'

leebigeztx
07-31-2011, 11:46 PM
It depends on more than PPG leebigeztx.

If Wade's defense can generate enough turnovers to overcome what we give up on offense by more than +5 we are going to be lightyears ahead on defense from where we were last year, 2009 and so forth.

If our offense is getting more short fields from turnovers I can garuntee our PPG average will go up from last year.

The yr when dallas was #2 in defense and had 50 sacks, they were at the bottom in terms of fumbles and int's. In the 4 yrs wade was the headcoach, they were never even in the middle in terms of to's even with ware sacking the qb. Again, in 4yr, he had 1 top 10 defense and all the other yrs it was 20ppg per yr. In sd he had 1 yr top 10 and the others years were middle of the pack and we know what kind of talent he had. In buffalo,same story and that was with smith,pat williams, and guys like that. Just like the previous poster stated that everyonewants to run from are simple facts.

Mario getting exposed with a triple layer and will have to walk out and defend a te.
The uber small nt and de(smith) on the d-line
Ryans and barwin coming off major lower leg injuries.
Cushing trying to prove it wasn't the juice and playing a new position.

Why all of a sudden these thing will be different because of a scheme and a coach when u don't have the talent. Mike nolan is a really good dc and in denver he camo'ed it for a while, but then they started getting exposed. He left and with more players, they couldn't stop a nose bleed. There have been a lot of teams try different schemes, but as I say, think players, not schemes.

chicagotexan2
08-01-2011, 12:11 AM
My only concern is Quin at the FS position. I know he was decent as a corner opposite Dunta, but FS is a little different and it's knowing where to be instead of who to cover in some sense.

I think he's got the physical gift, it's just going to be interesting to see if he has the instincts.

Yeah me too but I'm even more worried about Kareem. I really hope that his confidence isn't shot to he'll after that nightmare season. Overall I can't believe I'm leetting myself get so optimistic. I'd be cool with one if the youngsters outplaying Mario so we can ship him. I'd be happier with him turning into a monster but I don't see it.

steelbtexan
08-01-2011, 12:14 AM
I like the secondary upgrades.

Smith is going to have a hard time as a 5 tech. He's small. Hopefully Ty Warren is healthy and signs with the Texans. That guy used to be a stud. He passed a physical with the Broncos over the weekend. But wants to play in Houston. This is a golden oppurtunity for the Texans.

I'm worried about the LB's.

MW- Never played OLB before.
DR- Coming off achillies, doesn't have big NT to keep OL off him, Wasn't fast to begin with and this injury isn't going to help
Cush- I hope he had his baby and returns to 2009 form.
Barwin- Terrible injury, he doesn't even how he will respond to the physical rigors of the NFL.

SteveSlaton20
08-01-2011, 01:23 AM
Don't forget that their special teams were horrible and literally lost them some games.

The Chargers were mainly what you'd call a 'Anomaly'

yes i know that, but even a #1 ranked defense doesn't guarantee you a playoffs, let alone #15 ranked defense(if we're lucky).

The Pencil Neck
08-01-2011, 01:33 AM
I like the secondary upgrades.

Smith is going to have a hard time as a 5 tech. He's small. Hopefully Ty Warren is healthy and signs with the Texans. That guy used to be a stud. He passed a physical with the Broncos over the weekend. But wants to play in Houston. This is a golden oppurtunity for the Texans.

I'm worried about the LB's.

MW- Never played OLB before.
DR- Coming off achillies, doesn't have big NT to keep OL off him, Wasn't fast to begin with and this injury isn't going to help
Cush- I hope he had his baby and returns to 2009 form.
Barwin- Terrible injury, he doesn't even how he will respond to the physical rigors of the NFL.

Regardless of what Wade has said, I feel much more comfortable with

DL -- Watt, Cody/Lewis, Mario
LBs -- Reed, Demeco/Sharpton, Cushing, Barwin
DBs -- Joseph, Quin, Manning, KJ/Allen/Harris

I'd prefer to see Smith used only as part of the rotation and, honestly, I'd prefer Warren if he's healthy. In passing situations, we could either drop Watt down to NT and put Smith at DE or put Mitchell at NT.

I know that's not what's being planned but that's what makes more sense to me.

Rey
08-01-2011, 01:51 AM
Regardless of what Wade has said, I feel much more comfortable with

DL -- Watt, Cody/Lewis, Mario
LBs -- Reed, Demeco/Sharpton, Cushing, Barwin
DBs -- Joseph, Quin, Manning, KJ/Allen/Harris

I'd prefer to see Smith used only as part of the rotation and, honestly, I'd prefer Warren if he's healthy. In passing situations, we could either drop Watt down to NT and put Smith at DE or put Mitchell at NT.

I know that's not what's being planned but that's what makes more sense to me.

In passing situations I don't think they will be in their base defense.

Passing situations you can put some freaky stuff out there. Mario, watts, reed and barwin would be a good four to send. Mix in a Cushing blitz to top it off.

Also, in regards to Mario I view him as a standing de. We are basically playing a 5-2 as a base defense. Of course you wouldn't be in that defense against a team like the colts.

But against a team like the ravens or Pittsburg it can be effective.

Initially I was worried about Mario at olb, but I heard wade describe his defense and what he wants to do and I'm not worried anymore.

Against the colts and teams that like to air it out I expect Mario to have his hand on the ground for much of the game.

But if a team wants to pound the ball it would seem that getting more bulk on the field would make that harder to do.

I don't expect Mario to be running with te's and backs. Sometimes he'll drop into a zone, but that's about it.

But yeah, in passing situations expect Mario to put his hand on the ground.


That's another reason I think Mitchell can play on the nose. He will basically have two d lineman on both sides of him in situations where a run is possible.

This won't be your typical 3-4 but I do believe it will be fun to watch.

80tothezone
08-01-2011, 04:35 AM
I'm not exactly sure why I started feeling this, but I will not be surprised one bit if Mario ends up being traded. There are a few teams that are way under the salary floor, and a good young pass rushing DE is always in demand.

I am excite to see what Mario can do at OLB, but I'm not very optimistic about the prospects. Just not feeling him at that position.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he will be horrible. He has too much raw talent to completely suck, but the value he brings to the table is clearly greater at DE than OLB.

Allow me to indulge in a brief fantasy:
Trade Mario for a decent OLB or NT, plus draft pick(s). Use the cap space to pursue Nnambdi. Yeah, completely unrealistic, I know, but that would be awesome.

Dude I drop mario into coverage from time to time on Xbox live ..... seems to work for me lol!

The Pencil Neck
08-01-2011, 09:35 AM
In passing situations I don't think they will be in their base defense.

Passing situations you can put some freaky stuff out there. Mario, watts, reed and barwin would be a good four to send. Mix in a Cushing blitz to top it off.

Also, in regards to Mario I view him as a standing de. We are basically playing a 5-2 as a base defense. Of course you wouldn't be in that defense against a team like the colts.

But against a team like the ravens or Pittsburg it can be effective.

Initially I was worried about Mario at olb, but I heard wade describe his defense and what he wants to do and I'm not worried anymore.

Against the colts and teams that like to air it out I expect Mario to have his hand on the ground for much of the game.

But if a team wants to pound the ball it would seem that getting more bulk on the field would make that harder to do.

I don't expect Mario to be running with te's and backs. Sometimes he'll drop into a zone, but that's about it.

But yeah, in passing situations expect Mario to put his hand on the ground.


That's another reason I think Mitchell can play on the nose. He will basically have two d lineman on both sides of him in situations where a run is possible.

This won't be your typical 3-4 but I do believe it will be fun to watch.

First off, let me pat myself on the back because I was the first person on the board to say our base defense will basically be a 5-2 and I said it before the interview came out with Wade saying the same thing. Including the stuff about Mario being a hands up DE.

But my post wasn't saying what we ARE going to do, my post was saying what I'd feel more comfortable with from more of a standard 3-4 given our personnel AND which of our personnel I'd prefer to see out there. Basically, I'd feel more comfortable with Reed and Barwin coming off the edges with Mario as the DE that taking one of Reed/Barwin off the field and putting Antonio Smith on the field, instead.

DocBar
08-01-2011, 09:50 AM
First off, let me pat myself on the back because I was the first person on the board to say our base defense will basically be a 5-2 and I said it before the interview came out with Wade saying the same thing. Including the stuff about Mario being a hands up DE.

But my post wasn't saying what we ARE going to do, my post was saying what I'd feel more comfortable with from more of a standard 3-4 given our personnel AND which of our personnel I'd prefer to see out there. Basically, I'd feel more comfortable with Reed and Barwin coming off the edges with Mario as the DE that taking one of Reed/Barwin off the field and putting Antonio Smith on the field, instead. :clap::clap::clap:
Good Job. LOL

leebigeztx
08-01-2011, 09:50 AM
Look dude, don't come poppin in here trying to confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up.
:sarcasm:

In passing situations I don't think they will be in their base defense.

Passing situations you can put some freaky stuff out there. Mario, watts, reed and barwin would be a good four to send. Mix in a Cushing blitz to top it off.

Also, in regards to Mario I view him as a standing de. We are basically playing a 5-2 as a base defense. Of course you wouldn't be in that defense against a team like the colts.

But against a team like the ravens or Pittsburg it can be effective.

Initially I was worried about Mario at olb, but I heard wade describe his defense and what he wants to do and I'm not worried anymore.

Against the colts and teams that like to air it out I expect Mario to have his hand on the ground for much of the game.

But if a team wants to pound the ball it would seem that getting more bulk on the field would make that harder to do.

I don't expect Mario to be running with te's and backs. Sometimes he'll drop into a zone, but that's about it.

But yeah, in passing situations expect Mario to put his hand on the ground.


That's another reason I think Mitchell can play on the nose. He will basically have two d lineman on both sides of him in situations where a run is possible.

This won't be your typical 3-4 but I do believe it will be fun to watch.

Let's talk ball and situational football which is what this league is. 3rd&5, te,slot,and wr on marios side when he's standing up. In that situation, mario will have to play head up on the te. Not only is mario exposing more surface area because he's 6'7, he's going to have to protect his legs.

I really think that no matter what they're pretending to say, tbe team would be a lot with mario playing the 5 technique. Smith and anderson would be better options at olb than mario. Those guys fit the bill size wise to play olb. I guess u could use the guy who played opposite ware as an example, but that's a stretch.

thunderkyss
08-01-2011, 10:49 AM
Let's talk ball and situational football which is what this league is. 3rd&5, te,slot,and wr on marios side when he's standing up. In that situation, mario will have to play head up on the te. Not only is mario exposing more surface area because he's 6'7, he's going to have to protect his legs.

I really think that no matter what they're pretending to say, tbe team would be a lot with mario playing the 5 technique. Smith and anderson would be better options at olb than mario. Those guys fit the bill size wise to play olb. I guess u could use the guy who played opposite ware as an example, but that's a stretch.

I've heard both Wade & Herring say it doesn't matter what the offense does, we are going to rush who we want, when we want.

In this situation, that does not put Mario head to head with the tightend. Mario will widen out more, the line will slide to the TE, Watt moves inside the tackle, Cody will shade the strongside shoulder of the center, Antonio will line up outside the TE.

Mario is going for the QB when the ball is snapped.

I agree with Anderson as OLB, I agree with Mario as a 5-tech (but they're adamant about him being an OLB)..... I don't see Antonio as an OLB. IIRC, Mario dropped into coverage more than Antonio. Antonio was the guy they kicked inside on passing downs..... that says 3-4 DE to me. Maybe not 5 tech, but DE all the same.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 11:20 AM
But my post wasn't saying what we ARE going to do, my post was saying what I'd feel more comfortable with from more of a standard 3-4 given our personnel AND which of our personnel I'd prefer to see out there. Basically, I'd feel more comfortable with Reed and Barwin coming off the edges with Mario as the DE that taking one of Reed/Barwin off the field and putting Antonio Smith on the field, instead.

I always see Mario as an edge rusher, even though it's very tempting to see him play 5-tech more.

I don't see how moving your best edge rusher inside can benefit the team more.
Now, if the other guys step it up, then it can be a different story.

It's possible that we will see him there some this year (as he had done in the past on a limited basis.)

76Texan
08-01-2011, 11:38 AM
I've heard both Wade & Herring say it doesn't matter what the offense does, we are going to rush who we want, when we want.

In this situation, that does not put Mario head to head with the tightend. Mario will widen out more, the line will slide to the TE, Watt moves inside the tackle, Cody will shade the strongside shoulder of the center, Antonio will line up outside the TE.

Mario is going for the QB when the ball is snapped.

I agree with Anderson as OLB, I agree with Mario as a 5-tech (but they're adamant about him being an OLB)..... I don't see Antonio as an OLB. IIRC, Mario dropped into coverage more than Antonio. Antonio was the guy they kicked inside on passing downs..... that says 3-4 DE to me. Maybe not 5 tech, but DE all the same.If Mario is to play WILL (mostly) as we've been hearing, he shouldn't see the TE hardly, now will he?

At any rate, I've seen Mario going against the TE as a 34 SOLB, and he did just fine.
It was the TE that had a hard time with him.
So I don't have any concern anyway.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 11:56 AM
In passing situations I don't think they will be in their base defense.

Passing situations you can put some freaky stuff out there. Mario, watts, reed and barwin would be a good four to send. Mix in a Cushing blitz to top it off.

Against the colts and teams that like to air it out I expect Mario to have his hand on the ground for much of the game.


But yeah, in passing situations expect Mario to put his hand on the ground.




Right!
We've talked about this before and TexanArlington also referred to it as he also watched a lot of Cowboys games.

In passing situation, the D will be in a nickel package wtih a 4-man front very often.
Mario (like Ware) plays 43 DE in this instance.
Against the Colts, we may not notice any difference from the year before as far as formation is concerned.
(However, that is not a shoe-in.)

Also, in prevent defense, we could see a 3-man front.
In this instance, Mario automatically looks just like a 34 DE.

DocBar
08-01-2011, 12:04 PM
It's easy to sit back and say that we're gonna do what we want and dictate to the offense. We've been hearing that line for 10 yrs now. There's a reason that almost every offensive highlight reel I see on ESPN commercials has the Texans D getting burned.
I'm cautiously optimistic, but I want to see how the preseason games look before I start getting to hyped up.

Ole Miss Texan
08-01-2011, 12:15 PM
Man, I sure hope Mario was studying some of Ware's game film this offseason. Not just how he rushes the passer but how he uses his hands. I'd be perfectly happy if Mario gets 10-12 sacks a season (vs. 15+) if he can swat the ball out of QBs hands like Ware does. Causing 5 or 6 fumbles a year that way can be just as valuable, if not more, than sacks.

Rey
08-01-2011, 01:56 PM
First off, let me pat myself on the back because I was the first person on the board to say our base defense will basically be a 5-2 and I said it before the interview came out with Wade saying the same thing. Including the stuff about Mario being a hands up DE.

But my post wasn't saying what we ARE going to do, my post was saying what I'd feel more comfortable with from more of a standard 3-4 given our personnel AND which of our personnel I'd prefer to see out there. Basically, I'd feel more comfortable with Reed and Barwin coming off the edges with Mario as the DE that taking one of Reed/Barwin off the field and putting Antonio Smith on the field, instead.

Ok.

I think Mario being in the olb position with smith and watts on the line is a better run formation.

If an offense has two wr, a fb, a rb and a te, then I think we'd be safe in our base defense.

If a team removes a te, or fb (or both) and puts in a wr then i think we will switch out if that base defense. That's all I'm saying.

leebigeztx
08-01-2011, 02:10 PM
I always see Mario as an edge rusher, even though it's very tempting to see him play 5-tech more.

I don't see how moving your best edge rusher inside can benefit the team more.
Now, if the other guys step it up, then it can be a different story.

It's possible that we will see him there some this year (as he had done in the past on a limited basis.)

Mario is not an edge rusher, he's a power/bull rusher which is perfect for a 5 tech. When wade slants the front, mario can bull rush the guard inside and get under his pads. When they played the 3-4 with bruce smith, this happen a lot. Smith didn't beat a lot of guys running the edge like freeney, he mostly came across the guards face.

You know why steelers 3-4 has been great through the years? The nt and the 2 olbs. Look at the anatomy of their 3-4 and you will see the same thing? 330 lbs nt and 2 6-3 250lbs ols. This is why it works and they have been top 5 for 20 yrs or so vs wade and his system that has been inconsistent most times. This is the same reason why the texans will be the same defensively. If mario is coming 90% of the time or 95%, then the true effectiveness of the 3-4 is lost. If you watch the steelers, whether it was green and lloyd, porter and haggans, or harrison and woodley, those guys were 50/50 on who was coming. When wade had his best defense in dallas, ellis was opposite and james was coming up the middle. The true uniqueness of the 3-4 is the unpredictale nature of who is coming. There are always 4 guys, but which 4 is the key. The texans version will be the same 4 most of the time which excludes the unpredictable nature the defense is dsigned for. I never said it wouldn't work, but from the anatomy of building a 3-4, I'm looking at the stelers.

Rey
08-01-2011, 02:17 PM
Let's talk ball and situational football which is what this league is. 3rd&5, te,slot,and wr on marios side when he's standing up. In that situation, mario will have to play head up on the te. Not only is mario exposing more surface area because he's 6'7, he's going to have to protect his legs.

I really think that no matter what they're pretending to say, tbe team would be a lot with mario playing the 5 technique. Smith and anderson would be better options at olb than mario. Those guys fit the bill size wise to play olb. I guess u could use the guy who played opposite ware as an example, but that's a stretch.

Maybe in not understanding your formation or maybe it doesn't make sense, but I think Mario is going to be the weakside olb.

How many receivers total are on the field in your scenario? There would have to at least be one more on the other side of the field.

If that's the case I expect them to come out of their base 34 and bring another corner on the field.

I don't see him being in a situation like that where we are in a base defense with 3 wr's on the field.

But if we are, the other olb will be the one that will have to respond because Mario will likely be rushing anyways.

I'm not exactly sure I understand your concerns.

And I think they could play it either way. Mario at the 5 or Mario standing up.

But I see what they are doing with having him standing up. basically they are going to force teams to throw and dare them to run. I just dont see many teams being able to run at Mario. By him standing up on the outside he will automatically be outflanking the offensive tackle.

Marios biggest hurdle might actually be just that. He will need to learn how to not leave himself vulnerable to fb's diving at his knees.

But I don't share the concerns about Mario at olb.

Rey
08-01-2011, 02:20 PM
Mario is not an edge rusher, he's a power/bull rusher which is perfect for a 5 tech. When wade slants the front, mario can bull rush the guard inside and get under his pads. When they played the 3-4 with bruce smith, this happen a lot. Smith didn't beat a lot of guys running the edge like freeney, he mostly came across the guards face.

You know why steelers 3-4 has been great through the years? The nt and the 2 olbs. Look at the anatomy of their 3-4 and you will see the same thing? 330 lbs nt and 2 6-3 250lbs ols. This is why it works and they have been top 5 for 20 yrs or so vs wade and his system that has been inconsistent most times. This is the same reason why the texans will be the same defensively. If mario is coming 90% of the time or 95%, then the true effectiveness of the 3-4 is lost. If you watch the steelers, whether it was green and lloyd, porter and haggans, or harrison and woodley, those guys were 50/50 on who was coming. When wade had his best defense in dallas, ellis was opposite and james was coming up the middle. The true uniqueness of the 3-4 is the unpredictale nature of who is coming. There are always 4 guys, but which 4 is the key. The texans version will be the same 4 most of the time which excludes the unpredictable nature the defense is dsigned for. I never said it wouldn't work, but from the anatomy of building a 3-4, I'm looking at the stelers.

We aren't running the steelers 34.

And Mario is an edge rusher all day. He may not have that extremely quick burst that you see from a freeney or even mark Anderson, but Mario is an edge rusher.

He can rush from the inside but he is better outside where an og can't provide help and get under his pads.

Good interior rushers normally have a very low pad level which keeps interior o linemen from sticking a hand out and slowing them down. By Mario being 6'6" it wouldn't be hard for a strong 6'3 guard with a good knee bend to slow him down.

Limited space to work in and already at a leverage disadvantage. Not a good formula.

76Texan
08-01-2011, 02:36 PM
We aren't running the steelers 34.

And Mario is an edge rusher all day. He may not have that extremely quick burst that you see from a freeney or even mark Anderson, but Mario is an edge rusher.

He can rush from the inside but he is better outside where an og can't provide help and get under his pads.

Good interior rushers normally have a very low pad level which keeps interior o linemen from sticking a hand out and slowing them down. By Mario being 6'6" it wouldn't be hard for a strong 6'3 guard with a good knee bend to slow him down.

Limited space to work in and already at a leverage disadvantage. Not a good formula.I agree!

Also, I based this on watching the Cowboys played.
Ware spent a lot of times rushing upfield; that didn't diminish their pass rush.

I understand that the unpredictability isn't the same, but you play with the hand you got. You let your best rusher rush the QB.

Don't forget there's also the stunt that will let Mario rush the inside intead of coming off the edge.

thunderkyss
08-01-2011, 02:50 PM
Man, I sure hope Mario was studying some of Ware's game film this offseason. Not just how he rushes the passer but how he uses his hands. I'd be perfectly happy if Mario gets 10-12 sacks a season (vs. 15+) if he can swat the ball out of QBs hands like Ware does. Causing 5 or 6 fumbles a year that way can be just as valuable, if not more, than sacks.

Those count as sacks don't they?

thunderkyss
08-01-2011, 02:54 PM
The texans version will be the same 4 most of the time which excludes the unpredictable nature the defense is dsigned for. I never said it wouldn't work, but from the anatomy of building a 3-4, I'm looking at the stelers.

You make some good points. But in San Diego, it was the same as in Dallas, Sean Merriman came everytime.

In Green BAy.... Clay Matthews is going to be coming every time. Heck, in passing situations, they took the NT off the field & added a DB.

thunderkyss
08-01-2011, 03:01 PM
I agree!

Also, I based this on watching the Cowboys played.
Ware spent a lot of times rushing upfield; that didn't diminish their pass rush.

I understand that the unpredictability isn't the same, but you play with the hand you got. You let your best rusher rush the QB.

Don't forget there's also the stunt that will let Mario rush the inside intead of coming off the edge.

I don't think it's as much diminishing their pass rush as it is diminishing Mario's potential. He's got it all, power, speed & quickness. Now he'll be using his power to blow up TE's & RBs...... but once he gets going he doesn't switch to power mode.... or at least he hasn't.

When he's on the line, running stunts, just like leebigtx said, he can use that power to bull rush guards & tackles...

but he hasn't been using that bull rush the last two years anyway...

76Texan
08-01-2011, 03:19 PM
I don't think it's as much diminishing their pass rush as it is diminishing Mario's potential. He's got it all, power, speed & quickness. Now he'll be using his power to blow up TE's & RBs...... but once he gets going he doesn't switch to power mode.... or at least he hasn't.

When he's on the line, running stunts, just like leebigtx said, he can use that power to bull rush guards & tackles...

but he hasn't been using that bull rush the last two years anyway...

Wait a minute.
Leebig says he's a bull rusher.
You says he hasn't been using the bull rush!
What gives?

I saw he did all: come off the edge, bull rush over or inside the tackle, and occasionally stunt inside the guard.

Ole Miss Texan
08-01-2011, 03:39 PM
Those count as sacks don't they?
Ya know, now that you mention it that does sound vaguely familiar. Maybe it's never sunk in because I don't see the logic in it. Does it matter who recovered the ball? Regardless, let's get some damn turnovers!

EDIT: They do dognamit!

After looking online with no luck I went to nfl.com to find the rulebook. After that was completely unhelpful I do things the old fashioned way and the way I love to do things. Watched Ware highlights until I saw him strip McNabb, the screen showed the score of the game, the quarter and the time. My investigative spidey sense noticed the highlight real was posted in February 2010 so I went straight to the 2009 season results for the Cowboys on nfl.com. Saw a 34-14 post season victory for Dallas during the postseason of that year, the exact score that the clip showed at 4:10 left in the 4th quarter. Must be the same game, right? It was. The play-by-play for that particular play reads 3-7-PHI 13 (4:10) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb sacked at PHI 12 for -1 yards (94-D.Ware). FUMBLES (94-D.Ware), RECOVERED by DAL-54-B.Carpenter at PHI 26. 54-B.Carpenter to PHI 26 for no gain (81-J.Avant).
So Ware stripped him 1 yard behind the line of scrimmage and gets credit for a forced fumble and a sack. Way to go thunder. ;) Okay enough playing around on the internet for me. lol

The Pencil Neck
08-01-2011, 04:06 PM
Ya know, now that you mention it that does sound vaguely familiar. Maybe it's never sunk in because I don't see the logic in it. Does it matter who recovered the ball? Regardless, let's get some damn turnovers!

EDIT: They do dognamit!

lol

Yeah, when you see a defensive player come around backside and knock the ball out of the QB's hands, that's a sack and a fumble.

leebigeztx
08-01-2011, 11:53 PM
I think anyone who watched the cowboys enough and even ask cowboy fans, they didn't get consistent pressure even during their high sack year. They had 50 sacks one year, but were middle of the pack in terms of qb pressures and hits on the qb. I think with mario playing olb, his sack total might be up, but it will come at the expense of the rest of the teammates. Go and look at gb last year as an example in terms of d-line play. They had like 20 sacks from the line. The versitility and power of raji and jenkins allowed the cat blitzes and clay to get sacks off free runs to the qb. The year prior, arizona had docket and campbell working the qb off a 3 man rush. The cards were a top 10 defense because of this. When sd had a truly good defense, it was merriman and phillips bringing the heat off the edge, but castille was applying a lot of pressure. I think mario as a 5 would be as dominant as seymour was as a patriot. Mario would be a 10 sack kind of guy, but he would free up others to pitch in. As the olb, he's really not freeing anyone up. Just my opinion.

Rey
08-02-2011, 01:38 AM
How much if that was due to the talent of the individual players?

You can't rely solely on scheme to get pressure. You have to actually have some talented guys out there that can consistently beat the man in front of them.

leebigeztx
08-02-2011, 02:13 AM
How much if that was due to the talent of the individual players?

You can't rely solely on scheme to get pressure. You have to actually have some talented guys out there that can consistently beat the man in front of them.

In terms of what? I know wades last season in sd, they had 61 sacks as a team. They also had a offense that averaged 30ppg. So what happens? The defense gets to bring the heat consistently. Look closely at the raw facts about the 61 sacks. Merriman had 17 and phillips had 11.5. Next person on that list is castille at 7 sacks in 10 games from the lde spot. If u look at those sd teams, phillips was pretty even with merriman on sacks and castille was chipping his in those also. In dallas, the best defens he ever had was 09 and not the year ware had 20 sacks. The year ware had 20 sacks and the had 58 or so as a team, they gave up 22ppg. Even more than that, they only had 8 ints and 16 ff which is low for a team wth 58 sacks.

SteveSlaton20
08-02-2011, 03:42 AM
is anyone worried about earl mitchell starting at NT or is it just me?

80tothezone
08-02-2011, 03:57 AM
I get what you're saying, but comparing Mario to DeMarcus Ware as a OLB is complete fail.
Mario's skill set is different that Ware's.
Ware is way more fluid, has better change of direction, and is probably both quicker, and faster than Mario. Ware is a much more natural fit at OLB, which is kinda my point. Ware is also relentless, which is not a word I've ever heard associated with Mario.

I don't know man beenwatching the vids on texan.com and he seesm to be doing good in training camp.

PHAROAH
08-02-2011, 03:58 PM
I think that the Texans are taking the right approach after signing Manning & Joseph and being patient to see what good players will be let go for teams who need to get under the salary cap. I am not sold on Earl Mitchell or Cody holding up during the season at NT and the Glover Quinn at safety is just an experiment I think the Texans will sign another solid true safety and Quinn may not have a spot on this team really soon because I don't see him making that transition to the safety position.

michaelm
08-02-2011, 04:00 PM
I think that the Texans are taking the right approach after signing Manning & Joseph and being patient to see what good players will be let go for teams who need to get under the salary cap. I am not sold on Earl Mitchell or Cody holding up during the season at NT and the Glover Quinn at safety is just an experiment I think the Texans will sign another solid true safety and Quinn may not have a spot on this team really soon because I don't see him making that transition to the safety position.

You know, I'm not sure where it came from, but I've started to have the opposite opinion. for some reason, I'm expecting Mitchell to actually excel.
Nothing to back that up, really. Just a W-A-G.

leebigeztx
08-02-2011, 05:03 PM
While the texans are hoping mitchell works out, the saints got franklin on a 1 yr deal. wwwprofootballfocus.com breaks down snaps and plays. They had franklin as tied for 2nd against the run and defensive stop for lineman. He was tied with suh. Rogers has been the best interior rusher ther past 3 seasons despite what this board feels. Both guys are along with ellis are on the same line in the big easy. One team making superbowl moves, the other playing if and think games.

beerlover
01-12-2012, 11:50 AM
I get what you're saying, but comparing Mario to DeMarcus Ware as a OLB is complete fail.
Mario's skill set is different that Ware's.
Ware is way more fluid, has better change of direction, and is probably both quicker, and faster than Mario. Ware is a much more natural fit at OLB, which is kinda my point. Ware is also relentless, which is not a word I've ever heard associated with Mario.

They play a similar position, both games influenced/coached by Wade Phillips. I would like to see Mario stay healthy & Wade stick around to continue his development, then we can compare more completely. :mario2:

beerlover
03-03-2012, 08:23 AM
I get what you're saying, but comparing Mario to DeMarcus Ware as a OLB is complete fail.
Mario's skill set is different that Ware's.
Ware is way more fluid, has better change of direction, and is probably both quicker, and faster than Mario. Ware is a much more natural fit at OLB, which is kinda my point. Ware is also relentless, which is not a word I've ever heard associated with Mario.

Williams has been snake bit with nagging injurys since he was drafted #1 overall by the Texans, but if you compare their combine measureables they are closer than one might expect based off "reputation". The key difference is Mario is much bigger @ 6'7" 291. DeMarcus Ware was 6'4" 251 @ his combine. Mario was forty pounds heavier, yet ran a 4.66 forty compared to Wares 4.53. While Mario lifted 35 reps @ 225 Ware benched 27. Both broad jumped 10 feet which measures explosiveness along with vertical over 40" for Mario (are you kidding me) compared to DeMarcus 38.5".

Ware also had Wade Phillips as his defensive coach, now its Mario's :spin: turn.