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76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:31 PM
Previously, I had mentioned that Jackson was a victim of the two-receiver pattern quite a few times.

It involves a cover 3 scheme for the defense.
The receiver that KJ lined up on would run some sort of an inside route (whether a skinny post or a post route.)
The receiver (or TE) on the opposite side of the field (Quin covering) would run a crossing route through the middle.

The single safety in the middle can either step down on the crossing route or stay deep to help Jackson defend the inside route.
If the safety steps down too quickly, the QB would go long with nobody to man the middle.
Unless the other CB (Quin) quickly moves up top to take the place of the safety, Jackson becomes the goat.

The Texans actually did it right once, where Quin was about to collect an INT, only to have Nolan also got back and deflected the pass into the receiver's hands.

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:36 PM
The Texans offense was no stranger to this pattern; they ran it successfully a few times themselves.

One example is the 53-yd defensive inteference that the Colts CB had to commit in week one to avoid a longer TD pass.

Here are some screen shots to depict the play.

The Colts originally showed cover 2.
I simply depict the LCB as Jackson and the RCB as Quin.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/1-Cover2.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:39 PM
The Texans were in a 2-TE, single back set.
Foster would fake a run to the right;
The FS would step down to play the run.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/2-RunFake-FScomesdown.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:44 PM
Walter run the skinny post;
the LCB (Jackson) would turn him in toward the middle and trailed to the outside, guarding the corner route or a come-backer.

AJ ran the crossing route.
The SS would step down to check him.
The RCB (Quin) hesiatated a bit (he needed to be sure that AJ ws not to come back to his side) before he head up top to take over the SS place in the middle.
A little hesitation was all it took.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/3-Cover1SlantPost.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:49 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975700.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975732.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975741.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975757.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975764.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975782.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:52 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975791.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975804.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975814.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975822.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975831.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975839.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:54 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975850.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975857.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975863.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%201/vlcsnap-2975875.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 06:59 PM
Now we know that Walter doesn't have elite speed. yet he had to come to an almost-complete stop to wait for the ball.
Only then that the LCB can arrive to jump all over him for a PI to prevent the catch.
Is that CB (Hayden) a turtle?

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:02 PM
Here's the view from the end zone as Walter released inside.
We can see the SS came down to play the crossing route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/1-SScomesdownontheslanr.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:05 PM
Here we can see the SS cutting off the crossing route;
A LB also dropped back to help underneath.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/2-Doubleteam.jpg


In the meantime, Walter had got great separation from the LCB while the RCB was still a long way off.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/3-Latedropkick.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:08 PM
Here's the sequence of play:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972030.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972043.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972055.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972065.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972076.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:11 PM
Now Walter stemmed outide, threatening a corner route.
The LCB had no choice but to honor it.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972087.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972095.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972102.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:15 PM
As Walter turned back to the inside, he naturally got separation from the LCB.
This guy simply doesn't know which way the receiver was going.
Remember that this was not man coverage (because the other CB never followed AJ on the crossing route.)


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972112.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972122.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972132.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972142.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972150.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:18 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972160.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972166.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972178.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972190.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972198.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:20 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972208.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972216.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972223.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972233.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972242.jpg

76Texan
07-17-2011, 07:24 PM
To sum it up, if Schaub had hit Walter in stride, that would have been an easy TD and Hayden would look just like Kareem Jackson.

I'm saying that it makes absolutely no sense to let a receiver release inside without help.
There's just too much ground for a CB to cover, especially when he doesn't know whcih way the ball is going to go; only the offense knows.

I've said before that it doesn't matter if you have Namdi covering that route, he would be at a disadvantage just the same.
(Don't think so? You just wait and see!)

EllisUnit
07-17-2011, 07:42 PM
To sum it up, if Schaub had hit Walter in stride, that would have been an easy TD and Hayden would look just like Kareem Jackson.

I'm saying that it makes absolutely no sense to let a receiver release inside without help.
There's just too much ground for a CB to cover, especially when he doesn't know whcih way the ball is going to go; only the offense knows.

I've said before that it doesn't matter if you have Namdi covering that route, he would be at a disadvantage just the same.
(Don't think so? You just wait and see!)

hmmmm jackson was always reading the back of the WR he was coverings jersey. I dont see how thats anyone fault but his own. Forget the safties if a CB always has to depend on a safety for help than that guy shouldnt be playing CB. One on one, we have seen many good CBs be able to cover a guy with no help over the top. Hell Aaron Gleen had Matt Stevens back there for help and he went to the pro bowl.

TimeKiller
07-17-2011, 08:54 PM
Seriously? ANOTHER cry for attention? It's getting sad dude.

thunderkyss
07-17-2011, 09:47 PM
To sum it up, if Schaub had hit Walter in stride, that would have been an easy TD and Hayden would look just like Kareem Jackson.

I'm saying that it makes absolutely no sense to let a receiver release inside without help.
There's just too much ground for a CB to cover, especially when he doesn't know whcih way the ball is going to go; only the offense knows.

I've said before that it doesn't matter if you have Namdi covering that route, he would be at a disadvantage just the same.
(Don't think so? You just wait and see!)

So, basically you're saying if Schaub could learn to hit our receivers in stride, we would have won more games & Walter would look like a legit #2 ?



:kitten:

DocBar
07-17-2011, 10:43 PM
So, basically you're saying if Schaub could learn to hit our receivers in stride, we would have won more games & Walter would look like a legit #2 ?



:kitten:I don't think you can "learn" how to have a laser-rocket-cannon of an arm. It's like speed. Either you have it, or you don't. Schaub doesn't.
Nice thread, 76. You exposed a weakness in coverage and provided unequivocal evidence of Schaub lacking the said laser-rocket-cannon arm.

Clamp
07-17-2011, 11:09 PM
It might not have been a laser but he threw it from just behind the 10 yard line and hit the opposite 30. Thats a 65 yard throw. He had to get some air under it to get it that far but there are only a bare handful of guys who could have done it much better in my opinion.

DocBar
07-17-2011, 11:11 PM
It might not have been a laser but he threw it from just behind the 10 yard line and hit the opposite 30. Thats a 65 yard throw. He had to get some air under it to get it that far but there are only a bare handful of guys who could have done it much better in my opinion.

JaMarcus Russell could throw it that far from the sitting position....:kitten:

Clamp
07-17-2011, 11:25 PM
Jamarcus russel was a 6'5'' 300lb human cannon, and he was a one trick pony who washed out after 3 seasons. And like I said, a handful could do it better. Farve, Flacco, Cutler, and a few other notable strong arms could have heaved it 75 yards. But despite what you might think, the average qb might be able to throw 60 yards on a good day with no one rushing him. Shaub did it with only a few seconds to read it, set his feet, and pull the trigger.

Is he elite? No.

Is he better than over half the QBs in the league? Yes.

Do his other qualities that he bring to the table (that a guy like Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Cutler dont have) make up for not having one of the best deep balls in the game? Yes

thunderkyss
07-18-2011, 12:08 AM
Jamarcus russel was a 6'5'' 300lb human cannon, and he was a one trick pony who washed out after 3 seasons. And like I said, a handful could do it better. Farve, Flacco, Cutler, and a few other notable strong arms could have heaved it 75 yards. But despite what you might think, the average qb might be able to throw 60 yards on a good day with no one rushing him. Shaub did it with only a few seconds to read it, set his feet, and pull the trigger.

Is he elite? No.

Is he better than over half the QBs in the league? Yes.

Do his other qualities that he bring to the table (that a guy like Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Cutler dont have) make up for not having one of the best deep balls in the game? Yes

:kitten: <--- means he was just picking. In no way was he implying Jamarcus was/is a better QB than Schaub.

For the most part he agrees with you.

76Texan
07-18-2011, 12:38 AM
I like Schaub.
He's been doing all the things I wished (after the 09 season) he'd do to improve his game (in the 2010 season.).

As I understand, he's still on to those things (get rid of the ball quicker, working on his throwing motion, pull up and run.)
As long as he keeps at it, I have nothing to complain.
He can only get better with his reads and getting out faster on the bootleg.

badboy
07-18-2011, 12:39 AM
I like Schaub.
He's been doing all the things I wished (after the 09 season) he'd do to improve his game (in the 2010 season.).

As I understand, he's still on to those things (get rid of the ball quicker, working on his throwing motion, pull up and run.)
As long as he keeps at it, I have nothing to complain.
He can only get better with his reads and getting out faster on the bootleg.and remaining on the field...

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:01 AM
The next play in the same mold of the two-receiver pattern is the 60yd catch by AJ over the Jags in week 10.
Don't forget that AJ played on a sore ankle.

The Jags showed cover 2, but then sent a safety down in the box to play the run.

AJ ran a post route from the right slot while Dreessen ran the crossing route from the other side.

The other safety stepped down to check Dreessen.

That left Mathis (2006 Pro-Bowler and All-Pro) and the other CB Cox to play the deep route.

Let's see how it panned out.

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:06 AM
The Jags were in cover two even though you can't see the other safety yet in these first 5 shots.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084638.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084656.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084674.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084690.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084720.jpg

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:08 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084741.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084753.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084765.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084776.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084784.jpg

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:11 AM
Now you can see one safety coming down to play the run such that it became cover 3.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084792.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084800.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084807.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084814.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084822.jpg

In this last screenshot you can see the safety coming down as well a AJ and Dreessen on the start of their respective route.

DocBar
07-18-2011, 01:13 AM
I like Schaub.
He's been doing all the things I wished (after the 09 season) he'd do to improve his game (in the 2010 season.).

As I understand, he's still on to those things (get rid of the ball quicker, working on his throwing motion, pull up and run.)
As long as he keeps at it, I have nothing to complain.
He can only get better with his reads and getting out faster on the bootleg.I like Schaub also. I guess I should've used the :sarcasm: smiley. I was just having a bit of fun. :whip:

GP
07-18-2011, 01:15 AM
I like the title: Kareem Jackson's "Plight"

As if he has been stricken by some random illness, against his will.

LOL. Sigh......

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:16 AM
The next five shots will show that Schaub couldnt step fully into his throw due to pressure.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084887.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084894.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084901.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084907.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084911.jpg

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:23 AM
Now you will see Dreessen on his crossing route.
By this time, the other safety had turned back to chase the deeper route by AJ as Schaub had already released the ball.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084918.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084921.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084924.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084926.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084928.jpg

In the last two shots, you can see the deep safety in the middle.

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:24 AM
Now you can see the two CBS start showing on the radar

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4084931.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090524.jpg

GP
07-18-2011, 01:26 AM
Somebody had to upgrade from the free option to the paid option with Photobucket.

I'm just sayin'.....

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:29 AM
And here comes AJ, all by his lonesome.
Similarly to Walter, AJ had to wait for the ball on his one leg.
Notice how far mathis was from the play!

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090532.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090539.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090552.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090558.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090565.jpg

GP
07-18-2011, 01:31 AM
LOL. He just keeps posting volumes of screen shots. LOL. Wow.

Oblivious to anything else, he's going to go until he's got to open up another file storage account.

(Panting with exhaustion) Must. Upload. ALL. SCREENSHOTS!!!!

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:32 AM
And it was the other CB, Cox, who made the tackle.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090565.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090573.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090573.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090587.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/AJ%2060yd%20catch%20vs%20Jags/111/vlcsnap-4090594.jpg

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:34 AM
LOL. He just keeps posting volumes of screen shots. LOL. Wow.

Oblivious to anything else, he's going to go until he's got to open up another file storage account.

(Panting with exhaustion) Must. Upload. ALL. SCREENSHOTS!!!!

Hey, I've already said that I don't know this stuff.
It will be helpfull if you can show me a quicker way to do all this! :hurrah:

GP
07-18-2011, 01:35 AM
And so then, I was like, "Yeah, I know what it looks like...but still, I mean SERIOUSLY??"

And the room erupted into laughter.

That's when we realized that we could never go back to just being friends. The whole thing was awkward. Like I said earlier, two ships passing in the night.

Oh well. What's a guy to do?

And then, out of nowhere I began to notic----HEY! Where's the next set of screenshots???

What the hell? Get back to work, 76. I need those screen shots, and I needed them YESTERDAY!!!!

76Texan
07-18-2011, 01:55 AM
And so then, I was like, "Yeah, I know what it looks like...but still, I mean SERIOUSLY??"

And the room erupted into laughter.

That's when we realized that we could never go back to just being friends. The whole thing was awkward. Like I said earlier, two ships passing in the night.

Oh well. What's a guy to do?

And then, out of nowhere I began to notic----HEY! Where's the next set of screenshots???

What the hell? Get back to work, 76. I need those screen shots, and I needed them YESTERDAY!!!!

See, I have to get up to go to work early tomorrow.
I have all these screenshots upload to photobucket already.
(And I've already spent a lot of time finding a shareware to reduce the size of these screenshots and do that in order to save space on photobucket - but I thought Photobucket already gives you unlimited storage space?).

Anyhow, the next set of screenshots will show Namdi Asomugha in the same boat.
Now, that ought to be good, wouldn't it ?!?

Personally, I do not mind dissenting opinions at all.
I'm the kind of guy who can get into a fight with another guy and the next thing you know it, we become good friends.
No sweat!

Clamp
07-18-2011, 02:39 AM
That left Mathis (2006 Pro-Bowler and All-Pro) and the other CB Cox to play the deep route.

Let's see how it panned out.

At first I thought you meant JEROME Mathis, and I was gonna say "man, looks like we are hopping in the way way back machine" lol.


And oops, ya I was unaware of the meaning of the cute kitty smiley

Ole Miss Texan
07-18-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't think you can "learn" how to have a laser-rocket-cannon of an arm. It's like speed. Either you have it, or you don't. Schaub doesn't.
Nice thread, 76. You exposed a weakness in coverage and provided unequivocal evidence of Schaub lacking the said laser-rocket-cannon arm.
I know Schaub doesn't have a laser-rocket arm and there's been quite a few times where he hasn't hit the receiver in stride but I'm not sure it doesn't have to do more with us running so much play-action. That takes the play a little longer to develop and the wideout gets downfield quicker.

If you look at the time as the play unfolds, I don't know that there's many QB's that can throw a 60+ yard laser. Flacco, Big Ben, I'm sure a few more.

6:02 - play starts (play action).
5:59 - Schaub begins throw at 7 yard line.
5:58 - Schaub releases the ball with front foot on 9 yard line.
5:56 - Walter enters screenshot at 35 yard line.
5:55 - Pass Interference while Walter is at 31 yard line (ball lands at the 29).

So it takes 4 seconds from the snap for Schaub to release the ball. And then it takes 3 seconds for the ball to travel 62 yards. My best guess is that Walter is around the 50 yard line when Schaub throws the ball and running full speed downfield.



Again, I'm not saying Schaub's arm isn't an "issue", I just think it gets overplayed as a weakness. I also suspect that Kubiak/Schaub have a "pass interference" play in the bag. While Walter isn't burner fast, he's sneaky fast and has a knack for drawing flags against the DB. But that's my tin foil hat talking I guess. ;)

EllisUnit
07-18-2011, 11:41 AM
Yall are missing the whole point of this thread. you do know he isnt doing this to show anything about schaub right. He is doing it to show how offenses fool safties and make CBs like Jackson look bad when its really not their fault. :texanbill: yall do get that right haha

Ole Miss Texan
07-18-2011, 11:46 AM
Yall are missing the whole point of this thread. you do know he isnt doing this to show anything about schaub right. He is doing it to show how offenses fool safties and make CBs like Jackson look bad when its really not their fault. :texanbill: yall do get that right haha
Yup, and that's why I think all this talk about how Jackson is the 'worst football player ever' mentality is overreaction. Certainly he didn't have a great rookie season but I still think he can be a good player for us.

But find me one thread, just ONE thread on this board, that has ever stayed on topic! :spin:

EllisUnit
07-18-2011, 11:49 AM
Yup, and that's why I think all this talk about how Jackson is the 'worst football player ever' mentality is overreaction. Certainly he didn't have a great rookie season but I still think he can be a good player for us.

But find me one thread, just ONE thread on this board, that has ever stayed on topic! :spin:

haha yeah i agree he can get better but ol 76 up there keeps trying to convince me/us that K.J was good last season. i mean seriously we all know better, i'm not saying he wont improve, hell i hope he becomes a HOF Cb but as far as last season goes he was horrendous. :aggressive:

DocBar
07-18-2011, 02:58 PM
Yall are missing the whole point of this thread. you do know he isnt doing this to show anything about schaub right. He is doing it to show how offenses fool safties and make CBs like Jackson look bad when its really not their fault. :texanbill: yall do get that right hahaThat point has escaped me at all. I pointed that out in a previous post....
:peek:

Lucky
07-18-2011, 07:53 PM
LOL. He just keeps posting volumes of screen shots. LOL. Wow.
He's a machine.


But find me one thread, just ONE thread on this board, that has ever stayed on topic!
You're right. But how many threads are taken off topic by the thread starter on the 2nd post? This has to be some type of record.

Oh, and Kareem Jackson still sucks. As far as we know.

76Texan
07-18-2011, 11:58 PM
Here's the series where Namdi was in the same boat as Jackson.
This one resulted in a 41-yd TD, but it could have been 99yd for all we know.
In the first screen shot, you cannot see the safety but he's back there.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/1Lineup.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:03 AM
The sequence will show that the Raiders were also in cover 3.
Toward the end, notice how far Namdi was from the receiver Floyd.
Even one of the best needs safety help.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665137.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665148.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665163.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665174.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:06 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665238.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665247.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665255.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665263.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:07 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665271.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665282.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665291.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665299.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/vlcsnap-1665308.jpg

Allstar
07-19-2011, 12:12 AM
Since you're going through all the trouble, why don't you splice up these videos and post them through youtube or something so we could skip the slideshow and see it fluidly?

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:14 AM
Since you're going through all the trouble, why don't you splice up these videos and post them through youtube or something so we could skip the slideshow and see it fluidly?

I need to learn that.
However, there are plays I think that need to be in slow motion to see and I don't know how to do that either!

ArlingtonTexan
07-19-2011, 12:35 AM
He's a machine.


You're right. But how many threads are taken off topic by the thread starter on the 2nd post? This has to be some type of record.

Oh, and Kareem Jackson still sucks. As far as we know.


I like the fact that 76 is attempting to base his evaluation of Jackson on real analysis and game stuff, but while nice and fairly professionally Kubiak, smith and even Wade Phillips have all said he did not play well enough. Wade who makes Kubiak look brash even questioned Jackson's technique in one of McLame's off-season fluff pieces.

This is like one of my F students convincing me that they are a D student when they need at least a C minus not to retake the class. OK it was not total suckage it was just mostly suckage. It still was not good enough.

DocBar
07-19-2011, 01:12 AM
I like the fact that 76 is attempting to base his evaluation of Jackson on real analysis and game stuff, but while nice and fairly professionally Kubiak, smith and even Wade Phillips have all said he did not play well enough. Wade who makes Kubiak look brash even questioned Jackson's technique in one of McLame's off-season fluff pieces.

This is like one of my F students convincing me that they are a D student when they need at least a C minus not to retake the class. OK it was not total suckage it was just mostly suckage. It still was not good enough.

I like seeing the chess match between coaches. These threads 76 has started really shows that. Very few teams just line up and say "this is what we do and you can't stop us." The Jets, Steelers (to a degree), and Ravens are all I can think of off hand. You know what you get with those teams and they think they do it better than anyone. The Texans are trying to get in that mold offensively.

thunderkyss
07-19-2011, 01:36 AM
I like the fact that 76 is attempting to base his evaluation of Jackson on real analysis and game stuff, but while nice and fairly professionally Kubiak, smith and even Wade Phillips have all said he did not play well enough. Wade who makes Kubiak look brash even questioned Jackson's technique in one of McLame's off-season fluff pieces.

This is like one of my F students convincing me that they are a D student when they need at least a C minus not to retake the class. OK it was not total suckage it was just mostly suckage. It still was not good enough.

I don't think that is what 76 is trying to do.

People generally watch the game & they pick somebody to blame. Usually if you have one bad decision after anther, it get's easy to say "I was right, I know better than Kubiak, Smith, McNair"

Since Kareem was the #1 pick,we didn't pick Kyle Wilson, we didn't sign Dunta, Lee played us, & we let Jaques Reeves go, everybody wants to blame all their frustration for Kubiak & McNair on Kareem.

Wade is going to say what he said for several reasons. #1 it's true, #2 he knows the Texans fans don't want to hear what 76 is saying. If a Wade came out saying that, we'd start the "McNair strapped him to Kareem just like he forced Carr on Kubiak" crap.

#1 is true, because he's a rookie & has a lot to learn. If I was Wade, Kareem wouldn't be in my top 5 things I need to worry about right now.

Corrosion
07-19-2011, 03:26 AM
I need to learn that.
However, there are plays I think that need to be in slow motion to see and I don't know how to do that either!

I like the still shots - frame by frame you can break down the details of the play more thoroughly. Not just the focus of the play but the other things that made the play work (or fail) like the protections. You miss so much in real time ..... Just ask the refs.

I dont believe that people appreciate the effort you put into these threads - I enjoy them , keepem comin.

(If you do use youtube , It would be nice to have the still's as well)

Corrosion
07-19-2011, 03:33 AM
I don't think that is what 76 is trying to do.
.


I get the idea 76 is trying to show that while Jackson played poorly - He didnt have a whole lot of help either. When he made a mistake , so did the safety which lead to big gains and or scores.

I could be wrong but in evaluating the examples given as well as others (on youtube or my DVR) I see one mistake leading to another ..... With some experience Jackson may not make these same types of mistales again (or as often).

I hope Jackson is at home with his DVR evaluating the same shit 76 has put here ..... rather than out watching cock fights .... or going to porn expo's.

DocBar
07-19-2011, 03:48 AM
I don't think that is what 76 is trying to do.

People generally watch the game & they pick somebody to blame. Usually if you have one bad decision after anther, it get's easy to say "I was right, I know better than Kubiak, Smith, McNair"

Since Kareem was the #1 pick,we didn't pick Kyle Wilson, we didn't sign Dunta, Lee played us, & we let Jaques Reeves go, everybody wants to blame all their frustration for Kubiak & McNair on Kareem.

Wade is going to say what he said for several reasons. #1 it's true, #2 he knows the Texans fans don't want to hear what 76 is saying. If a Wade came out saying that, we'd start the "McNair strapped him to Kareem just like he forced Carr on Kubiak" crap.

#1 is true, because he's a rookie & has a lot to learn. If I was Wade, Kareem wouldn't be in my top 5 things I need to worry about right now. If Kareem isn't top 5, I bet the secondary, as a whole, is #1. It has got to be fixed and fixed now. I don't care if it's a better pass rush, better coaching/scheme or 1 or 2 top FA's. whatever it takes to reach at least average. Just get that side of the ball to hold up their end.

Playoffs
07-19-2011, 08:54 AM
I like the still shots - frame by frame you can break down the details of the play more thoroughly. Not just the focus of the play but the other things that made the play work (or fail) like the protections. You miss so much in real time ..... Just ask the refs.

I dont believe that people appreciate the effort you put into these threads - I enjoy them , keepem comin.

(If you do use youtube , It would be nice to have the still's as well)

Yeah, keep them coming 76. Good stuff.

thunderkyss
07-19-2011, 09:24 AM
If Kareem isn't top 5, I bet the secondary, as a whole, is #1. It has got to be fixed and fixed now. I don't care if it's a better pass rush, better coaching/scheme or 1 or 2 top FA's. whatever it takes to reach at least average. Just get that side of the ball to hold up their end.

Secondary is a big problem.. if not #1 (NT maybe) it's #2. But the problem isn't & wasn't the corners. Safeties... if you look at 76's examples, the safety biting down on the run fake imo is what sets everything else in motion. If he's going to bite, the off corner has to take his place, or the other safety has to recognize & widen out.

We're talking about 40+ yard passes in his examples, the other safety maybe could have gotten over in time to do something.

& while we did give up many of those, we gave up more underneath.. crossing routes, quick outs to TEs, screens to RBs.. that's on the LBs & the DL. They have to recognize screens (& we are terrible at it) & the LBs have to control the middle of the field. They just have to.

DocBar
07-19-2011, 09:38 AM
Secondary is a big problem.. if not #1 (NT maybe) it's #2. But the problem isn't & wasn't the corners. Safeties... if you look at 76's examples, the safety biting down on the run fake imo is what sets everything else in motion. If he's going to bite, the off corner has to take his place, or the other safety has to recognize & widen out.

We're talking about 40+ yard passes in his examples, the other safety maybe could have gotten over in time to do something.

& while we did give up many of those, we gave up more underneath.. crossing routes, quick outs to TEs, screens to RBs.. that's on the LBs & the DL. They have to recognize screens (& we are terrible at it) & the LBs have to control the middle of the field. They just have to.I completely agree with that. That's why I said secondary as a whole instead of specifying a particular position. Someone still needs to make sure Kareem has some longer spikes on his shoes this season. Maybe it'll keep him on his feet a little more often.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 11:37 AM
I'd like to say thanks to those who appreciate my effort.

All I'm saying is when we want to evaluate a player, we neeed to:

1. Look at the whole body of his work.
(This is where I compare Myers with Jackson. I've watched each play in slow motion and in still shots like these for the last 4 years. I've learned a little here and there.)

2. Look at the situation around him.
- One CB can look better with more pressure up front while another looks bad because lack of the same (overall when you look at all the plays each was involved in.)
- One CB, for some reason, just happened to receive better help from the safety while the other did not (again, counting all the plays each was invloved in.)
- One CB might have gotten away with a few more penalties while the other did not.
A little bit of this and lit bit of that add to some bad plays on his own combine to make for an easy scape goat.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 11:45 AM
While watching that Chargers/Raiders game (a bad day at the office for Namdi), I saw a few interesting plays that can bring up a few points.

One of them is when Rivers completed a 55-yd pass over the other CB (Stanford Routt; this guy played locally here at UH and runs a 4.25 forty.)

The Raiders were in cover 2 but one of the safeties was itimitating Pollard while the other shifted over to help Namdi.

You can see from the view behind the offense how the QB Rivers "looked" them off from where the ball was going.

No safety help is a biatch!

I will show the side view first.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/1Lineup.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 11:49 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643859.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643873.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643889.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643906.jpg

You can see that originally, one safety stepped down to play the run while the other concentrated on helping Namdi's side.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 11:51 AM
The guy near the Raiders logo in the middle of the field was the FS; he went back to follow the receiver but then turned into the middle of the field.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643958.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643965.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643977.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643989.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/333/vlcsnap-1643997.jpg

XI CMURDER IX
07-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Someone is having football relapse, with all these screenshots! ha

76Texan
07-19-2011, 11:59 AM
View from behind the offense.
See how the FS come down to play the run.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645612.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645623.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645631.jpg

EllisUnit
07-19-2011, 12:00 PM
i also like what 76 is doing i look at it and he goes really in depth. But my whole point is that a CB should not need to depend on a safety. If he cant cover a WR man to man than maybe he shouldnt be a CB. The WR is the CBs job 90% of the time the safety is there to help. So we should expect our CBs to be able to cover guys without help. Look at 09 Dunta and Quin played far better with little to no help as well. Pollard was always in the box and Wilson was still Wilson.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:01 PM
He now read pass and made his drop to help Routt.
You can see that he was looking at the QB.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645640.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645649.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645656.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645664.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645673.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Now you will see that Rivers "looked off" both safeties, fooling them into thinking he was going to his left.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645681.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645690.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645699.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645708.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645717.jpg

In the last scrren shot you can see the FS bit on the look by Rivers and turned back to the middle of the field (underneath) instead of continuing going back along with Routt.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:09 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645726.jpg


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645897.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645909.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/55yd%20pass%20over%20Routt/444/vlcsnap-1645919.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:21 PM
On a different play, there was a 5-yd holding call (away from the play) that was declined since the Chargers gained 10 on a pass to Sproles.

Namdi committed the penalty because he had allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside.

.....

Then came a play in which Namdi funneled the receiver inside toward the single safety, but then allowed the receiver to cut back to the outside over the top.

(This is why CB had to honor the outside route.)

Fortunately, the pass was off-target (the pocket collapsed and Rivers couldnt step into the throw.)

I'm not going to show those sceen shots, but those plays clearly showed that as CB, you have to honor the corner route (or any type of outside route) as you funnel the receiver to the inside.

If you let the receiver cut back to the outside, the safety won't be able to help.

Corrosion
07-19-2011, 12:23 PM
i also like what 76 is doing i look at it and he goes really in depth. But my whole point is that a CB should not need to depend on a safety. If he cant cover a WR man to man than maybe he shouldnt be a CB. The WR is the CBs job 90% of the time the safety is there to help. So we should expect our CBs to be able to cover guys without help. Look at 09 Dunta and Quin played far better with little to no help as well. Pollard was always in the box and Wilson was still Wilson.

Just about any CB in the NFL can cover the average reciever one on one when you take out all factors outside of those two players. But that isnt reality , unless they are on the practice field.
Its when you add in multiple routes and coverage scheme's that give the CB responsibilities outside of that man on man coverage that the waters get muddied. The mistakes one player makes can easily be compounded or cause a chain of mistakes or simple compensation opening a window elsewhere.

EllisUnit
07-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Just about any CB in the NFL can cover the average reciever one on one when you take out all factors outside of those two players. But that isnt reality , unless they are on the practice field.
Its when you add in multiple routes and coverage scheme's that give the CB responsibilities outside of that man on man coverage that the waters get muddied. The mistakes one player makes can easily be compounded or cause a chain of mistakes or simple compensation opening a window elsewhere.

i agree. But if you look at most of the times Jackson got beat. It was on long straight out routes. hell J. Galloway got behind jackson deep easily 2 times both were man, all he had to do was hang with him, and he didnt even come close.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:29 PM
On another play, Rivers completed a 34-yd pass to Floyd on a back shoulder fade.

Namdi turned the receiver toward the side line and was one-on-one with Floyd.
He committed a PI and still couldn't stop the receiver from catching the pass.

I've said all along that the back shoulder fade is just a difficult route to defend when the QB and the receiver get on the same page.

I've seen Jackson as the victim of good offensive plays like that one a few times (and they weren't long pass plays as the one Namdi allowed in this game.)

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:32 PM
i agree. But if you look at most of the times Jackson got beat. It was on long straight out routes. hell J. Galloway got behind jackson deep easily 2 times both were man, all he had to do was hang with him, and he didnt even come close.

Two times?

In man coverage?

Can you show me?

76Texan
07-19-2011, 12:53 PM
I wanted to look at how teams can defend this 2-receiver route succesfully, but I don't think I have time to post all the screen shots.

If somebody has already used photobucket, perhaps they know how I can put a link from here to there so people can go there and watch the slide show.
Just PM me.

I'm uploading the Galloway pass screenshots right this minute and it will be much easier if people can view them there at photobucket.

It will show another of Jackson's plight.
The Texans FS went AWOL (he was not even on the field.)

(P.S. - Never mind, I think I'm about to get it!)

Corrosion
07-19-2011, 01:37 PM
Two times?

In man coverage?

Can you show me?

I doubt that he can .... More often than not they played some form of zone.

The zone coverage was exploited time and again between the LB and CB as well (and most notably) between the CB and either S. Teams could go to that and exploit it at will .... and the Texans defensive staff never figured it out.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 01:56 PM
I doubt that he can .... More often than not they played some form of zone.

The zone coverage was exploited time and again between the LB and CB as well (and most notably) between the CB and either S. Teams could go to that and exploit it at will .... and the Texans defensive staff never figured it out.

Exactly!

76Texan
07-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Look at this screen shot and count the number of defensive players on the field.

Look at both the offensive and defensive formation:

- The Skins were in offset-I right, single TE on the left.
They have two receivers on the right.
The outside receiver will go into motion ad run a fake reverse.

- The Skins will fake both the reverse and the run before McNabb pulled up to make the long throw.

- The Texans were in a 4-man front.
They shifted the LBs to the left: LOLB Diles lined up between the numbers and the hashmarks (nearest to the slot receiver Galloway); MLB Ryans was just inside LDE Smith and outside of the FB, and ROLB Adibi was pretty much accross the RB.

The Texans had Quin on the TE, with Pollard backing him up.

Jackson lined up on the wide-out, but did not follow him all the way as this guy went into motion and faked a reverse.
He (Jackson) simply tightened up his split and took on the slot Galloway.
This is zone defense, not man coverage.

As the play developed, you will see Diles following the FB who went to the flat and ran down the side line while Demeco simply dropped back and did not follow anybody; same goes forAdibi.

Both Quin and Pollard also dropped back when they read pass.
This looks like a "supposedly" 5-2 zone, except the Texans were missing a safety.

- Based upon the line-up, if there was a deep safety, we would expect to find him, most likely, behind MLB Ryans.

The slide show cannot find that safety anywhere on the field.
(I have 4 different camera angles.)

But first, here's the line-up.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/111/vlcsnap-5599622.jpg

76Texan
07-19-2011, 02:02 PM
Now, I'm going to try to post the link to photobucket.

See if you guys can get there and see the album with 4 sub-albums.

See if you guys can find Wilson anywhere on the field.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/

76Texan
07-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Click on one the sub-albums, "111" for example.

When it opens up, there should be an option "view as slide show".

When the slide show starts, there's a play and pause button on the bottom left so you can play it manually.

When you finishes with a sub-album, click on the "back" option on the top right hand to go back to the previous play.
From here, you can click on "62-yd pass to Galloway" to go back to the root directory in order to view the other sub-albums "222", "333", and "444".

The Pencil Neck
07-19-2011, 02:08 PM
Now, I'm going to try to post the link to photobucket.

See if you guys can get there and see the album with 4 sub-albums.

See if you guys can find Wilson anywhere on the field.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/62%20yd%20pass%20to%20Galloway/

I can't find him. Were we only playing with 10 guys?

76Texan
07-19-2011, 02:10 PM
I can't find him. Were we only playing with 10 guys?

We sure did!
He should be somewhere between the zebra and Jackson, but he went phantom to the cameras.

76Texan
07-19-2011, 02:40 PM
I've made my album public so everybody can see what's going down.

As you can see, I've been learning on the go.
The organization is still a mess.
Most sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.
(There were a few out of order, but very few.)

There were hardly any comment so it can be hard to follow.

It's probably best to wait for me to point to a certain sub-album after I post some comments on the board.

At any rate, regarding the 2-receiver route, here's one successful defensive play by the Cowboys against the Bucs in 09.

The Cowboys actually stayed with cover 2 (even though the second safety - Hamlin - can still come down to play the run and didnt affect the outcome of this play.)

A safety (Sensabaugh) committed a penalty by pulling on the receiver face mask that was not called, but it shouldn't affect the outcome of the play either.

The important player was RCB Jenkins (the off-side CB like Quin) who came back up top to take over the place of the deep safety. He made the INT.

The LCB Newman who was on the receiver (in Jackson's role) did not defend the route.

The other safety (Hamlin) stepped down to play the crossing route as usual.

Note: These two sub-albums have the photos in reverse order.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Cowboys_Bucs_2009/

Got to go. More later!

EllisUnit
07-19-2011, 07:51 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d thanks god

Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.

And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.

Corrosion
07-19-2011, 11:26 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d thanks god

Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.

And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.

So Jackson was the guy who ended up with him , that view doesnt give us enough information to know what the coverage was nor the route combination to give us an idea if there was a blown coverage and who might have made a mistake.
There are at least three recievers on that side of the field and you cant see the reciever opposite , he could have run a crossing route to disrupt the coverage.

Looks to me the big mistake was Pollard being out of position - Either bit on the play fake or over commited to another reciever.


Plays like that are probably why Pollard was released.

EllisUnit
07-20-2011, 01:01 AM
So Jackson was the guy who ended up with him , that view doesnt give us enough information to know what the coverage was nor the route combination to give us an idea if there was a blown coverage and who might have made a mistake.
There are at least three recievers on that side of the field and you cant see the reciever opposite , he could have run a crossing route to disrupt the coverage.

Looks to me the big mistake was Pollard being out of position - Either bit on the play fake or over commited to another reciever.


Plays like that are probably why Pollard was released.

watch the actual game highlights on NFL.com it shows jackson covering him pretty much from start top finish. it was man

EllisUnit
07-20-2011, 01:02 AM
So Jackson was the guy who ended up with him , that view doesnt give us enough information to know what the coverage was nor the route combination to give us an idea if there was a blown coverage and who might have made a mistake.
There are at least three recievers on that side of the field and you cant see the reciever opposite , he could have run a crossing route to disrupt the coverage.

Looks to me the big mistake was Pollard being out of position - Either bit on the play fake or over commited to another reciever.


Plays like that are probably why Pollard was released.

Regardless it was still jacksons man. i mean hey he could of fallen down, but we dont blame the turf/grass. so i dont blame pollard.

76Texan
07-20-2011, 01:17 AM
watch the actual game highlights on NFL.com it shows jackson covering him pretty much from start top finish. it was man

Let me play!

OK, so you insist that it was man coverage.

There were two receivers on the field.

Who was in man coverage on the other receiver?

76Texan
07-20-2011, 01:21 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d thanks god

Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.

And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.

FYI, Jackson actually overran that play due to smart route running by an experience receiver who knows exactly where the ball is going.
(I have uploaded a new series of photos in case you got tired of figuring it out!)

Also, FYI, you're missing the big picture to begin with.

thunderkyss
07-20-2011, 01:53 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d thanks god

Galloway had to slow down to catch the ball. But still caught it. sure no safety but come on he was K.J man.

And correction 76 my bad i said 2 when it was actually once that galloway got deep on jackson. The other time it was against Wilson and one of our LBs with Pollard about 15 yards behind.

Regardless.

We aren't saying Jackson played like the best corner in the league.

We aren't saying that Jackson doesn't have room to improve.

All we are saying, is that he played like we expected a rookie to play.

Anyone else, expecting anything else just aren't being realistic.

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:09 AM
Let me get back to the two-receiver route.
The way the Cowboys defended it successfully against the Bucs.
It was born out of two concepts that I've noticed in Wade Phillips' defense:
The inverted cover 2 and the drop-kick call.

The play against the Bucs where both CBs actually have more depths than the two safeties (resulting in an INT by the off-side CB Jenkins) is clearly of the inverted cover 2 gene.

The drop-kick call, as I had mentioned before, involved only two main players: the off-side CB and the safety.
Since I've already had this example in the INT against TY Yates, I thought I'd bring it up again.

By now, I think I had given at least a glimpse of how the concept works.

This is the diagram I had drawn and posted some time ago:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/Dropkik_VT.gif

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:19 AM
Against TY Yates, the defensive line up is like this:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/1-Singlesafety.png

The TE was strong left; he will run the crossing route.
The receiver on the right will be the target.

The receiver on the left will be in motion and run a fake reverse.
The offense, of course, will also fake a run (to the right) to try to draw at least one safety up.
These two actions combined might even bring both safeties up.

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:28 AM
As the receiver on the left went into motion, the weak side safety came up.
He was getting ready to play the reverse.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/2-Receiverinmotion.png

The RCB also followed; where he ends up depends on what he sees.

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:32 AM
With the reverse and run fake showing, both safeties stepped up, but notice how the RCB immediately dropped back.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/3-PAfakeandreverse.png

Here you can also see the receiver on the right and the TE on the left start their route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/4-Safetystepsup.png

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:37 AM
Now, the deep safety realizes it's not a run, so he drops back.
He can still see the TE.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/5-Safetydropsback.png

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:39 AM
The middle safety cuts off the slant route by the TE.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/6-Safetycutsofftheslantroute.png

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:42 AM
The RCB comes over all the way to the other side of the field (taking place of the middle safety) to help the LCB.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/7-RCBcomesover.png

You can still see the middle safety on the TE underneath.

76Texan
07-20-2011, 02:43 AM
The result was an INT.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/8-doublecoverage-INT.png

Heck, if TY Yates can only be so lucky as to play against the Texans!

TimeKiller
07-20-2011, 01:39 PM
So it can happen to anyone. It just happened to happen to Jackson more often than anyone.

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2011, 01:58 PM
So it can happen to anyone. It just happened to happen to Jackson more often than anyone.

And part of the reason why it happened to Jackson more often than anyone is because of the extraordinarily bad safety help.

Not saying he would have been great, but he wouldn't have been anywhere as bad if he had gotten the help he was supposed to have gotten.

GP
07-20-2011, 04:44 PM
And part of the reason why it happened to Jackson more often than anyone is because of the extraordinarily bad safety help.

Not saying he would have been great, but he wouldn't have been anywhere as bad if he had gotten the help he was supposed to have gotten.

To me, it's possible that a lot of what was wrong was really Bush and Gibbs.

I don't think they had our CBs playing the right "style," which might indicate why David Gibbs was axed in K.C. and scurried so quickly to get here. I'm not all that thrilled that we've got Vance Joseph (right?) as our DB coach, just because I view this as David Gibbs version 2.0.

It looked like the CBs were told to read and react, and the Safeties were called upon to bail them out or provide the knockout punch. The safeties and the CBs were prone to looking at each other, pre-snap, and shrugging shoulders and hands/palms turned up as if to say "Hell if I know..." then the ball was snapped and cue the Keystone Cops music.

As much as KJ gets ribbed on here, I happen to think Wade Phillips will correct a lot of what was wrong. And if KJ doesn't catch onto what Wade wants, I think there'll be someone stuck out there whom Wade thinks can do it. I see Wade as being very impartial and very scrutinizing out there. He, of all people, will be under a microscope because his dad is Bum and he also got canned by the 'Boys. He has a lot to prove.

thunderkyss
07-20-2011, 05:42 PM
And part of the reason why it happened to Jackson more often than anyone is because of the extraordinarily bad safety help.

Not saying he would have been great, but he wouldn't have been anywhere as bad if he had gotten the help he was supposed to have gotten.

It's not just the safeties, LBs play an important role in pass coverage as well. Ours weren't very good

beerlover
07-20-2011, 05:56 PM
It's not just the safeties, LBs play an important role in pass coverage as well. Ours weren't very good

Speaking of LB's I seem to remember Rolando McClain was like a vacuum cleaner sweeping up the trash in front of Kareem @ Alabama. Then Javier Arenas being the secondary playmaker & return guy. With Mount Cody clogging two or three guys in the trenches so Jackson had some support, maybe too much in Nick Sabin's system.

Corrosion
07-20-2011, 06:11 PM
It's not just the safeties, LBs play an important role in pass coverage as well. Ours weren't very good

You aint shittin .... RB's and TE's had their way with this defese underneath.

Im really concerned with the LB's in this 3-4 we'll see this year with Barwin and MW on the outside.
Teams will find a way to force them to cover or exploit their un-willingness to do so.

Cushing wasnt good in coverage at all last season ... Sure he had INT's in his rookie season but those were more a result of his being in the right place at the right time rather than coverage ability.

Ryans ..... who knows how he's going to look coming off of this injury , he wasnt a world beater in coverage to begin with. Not bad just not great either.

They sure better improve the back end of this defense and hope like hell they can put a lot of pressure on opposing QB's because of the above.


I wonder how much of the LB's issues with coverage was scheme related and how much is just lack of ability in that particular skill. We'll have to wait to find out.

EllisUnit
07-20-2011, 06:49 PM
Regardless.

We aren't saying Jackson played like the best corner in the league.

We aren't saying that Jackson doesn't have room to improve.

All we are saying, is that he played like we expected a rookie to play.

Anyone else, expecting anything else just aren't being realistic.

Ok see there. thats what i mean, and he did. I am not saying he wont improve but last season as far as CBs go he was the demise of the secondary. No photos/stats can prove he was better than he was. We can try to throw all the blame on the safties and coaches but the fact of the matter is that Quinn and D-Rob played with the same safties the year before and looked like a number 1 ranked secondary compared to last seasons defense. So what was the difference between the 2009 and 2010 defense. ONE thing that was take out D. Rob and add Jackson. Everything else was the same.

Corrosion
07-20-2011, 07:22 PM
Ok see there. thats what i mean, and he did. I am not saying he wont improve but last season as far as CBs go he was the demise of the secondary. No photos/stats can prove he was better than he was. We can try to throw all the blame on the safties and coaches but the fact of the matter is that Quinn and D-Rob played with the same safties the year before and looked like a number 1 ranked secondary compared to last seasons defense. So what was the difference between the 2009 and 2010 defense. ONE thing that was take out D. Rob and add Jackson. Everything else was the same.

No one is placing the blame all on the coaches and or safeties ..... the whole lot of them sucked :hobie: last season which is why both safeties were released , the best corner is slated to move to FS and .... how many draft picks were used on the secondary ? How many FA's will be added to the secondary to fill out the roster ?


They all sucked ....and at least two of them get to go play hide the sausage elsewhere.

EllisUnit
07-20-2011, 08:12 PM
No one is placing the blame all on the coaches and or safeties ..... the whole lot of them sucked :hobie: last season which is why both safeties were released , the best corner is slated to move to FS and .... how many draft picks were used on the secondary ? How many FA's will be added to the secondary to fill out the roster ?


They all sucked ....and at least two of them get to go play hide the sausage elsewhere.

i know my point was that we had all the same defense in 2009 and they werent to bad, then we plug in k. jac to D-Robs spot and we go to NEARLY one of the worst secondaries in NFL history.

badboy
07-20-2011, 08:55 PM
You aint shittin .... RB's and TE's had their way with this defese underneath.

Im really concerned with the LB's in this 3-4 we'll see this year with Barwin and MW on the outside.
Teams will find a way to force them to cover or exploit their un-willingness to do so.

Cushing wasnt good in coverage at all last season ... Sure he had INT's in his rookie season but those were more a result of his being in the right place at the right time rather than coverage ability.

Ryans ..... who knows how he's going to look coming off of this injury , he wasnt a world beater in coverage to begin with. Not bad just not great either.

They sure better improve the back end of this defense and hope like hell they can put a lot of pressure on opposing QB's because of the above.


I wonder how much of the LB's issues with coverage was scheme related and how much is just lack of ability in that particular skill. We'll have to wait to find out.I think the 5 -2 will disrupt QB and I think our new CB free agent and Quinn at FS will slow the passing game. I am very concerned about our LBs in coverage. Maybe there will be "bend" but no "break."

badboy
07-20-2011, 09:14 PM
No one is placing the blame all on the coaches and or safeties ..... the whole lot of them sucked :hobie: last season which is why both safeties were released , the best corner is slated to move to FS and .... how many draft picks were used on the secondary ? How many FA's will be added to the secondary to fill out the roster ?


They all sucked ....and at least two of them get to go play hide the sausage elsewhere.And this is exactly why I believe Wade Phillips will go free agency strongly for a corner and probably a safety depending on ASo signing.

thunderkyss
07-21-2011, 12:18 AM
We can try to throw all the blame on the safties and coaches but the fact of the matter is that Quinn and D-Rob played with the same safties the year before and looked like a number 1 ranked secondary compared to last seasons defense. So what was the difference between the 2009 and 2010 defense. ONE thing that was take out D. Rob and add Jackson. Everything else was the same.

The biggest difference between the 2009 defense & the 2010 defense was that the coaches played aggressively for 4 Qtrs in 2009. Maybe for a half in 2010. When they played aggressively, they allowed our team to make up the 30 point differential. They were either shutting people down, or drastically slowing them down for that qtr & a half people were going gaga over the offense.

EllisUnit
07-21-2011, 12:29 AM
The biggest difference between the 2009 defense & the 2010 defense was that the coaches played aggressively for 4 Qtrs in 2009. Maybe for a half in 2010. When they played aggressively, they allowed our team to make up the 30 point differential. They were either shutting people down, or drastically slowing them down for that qtr & a half people were going gaga over the offense.

Some of that may be true, but there was an obvious difference in the way our secondary performed with K. Jack instead of D. Rob.

steelbtexan
07-21-2011, 12:41 AM
Jacksons plight?

Did he fall down again?

I expect Jackson to improve alot. He will probably end up playing in the dime defense. The CB group will end up looking like this. IMHO

FA CB, Allen, Harris (nickle) Jackson/Carmicheal (Fighting it out for the dime)

Harris will be starting over Allen by mid season. I'm really high on Harris.

leebigeztx
07-21-2011, 01:01 AM
Those screen sshots really point out what I've said about shaub having slow feet and accuracy issues. This is abouut jackson, so let me stick with the topic.

Jax didn't play well, but the lbs,safeties, nor rush did him any favors. Against dallas, he was trying to press roy on a slant route. Roy beat the slant, and there wasn't a single lb or safety to squeeze the window. Unless you have deion at cb, non covering lbs and safeties are bigger issues against the pass than a corner. The best defenses in the league against the pass have front 7 people who can pressure and cover windows. Timmons-farrior in pitt and lewis-johnson combo in balt. When tb was really good defensively, brooks and quarles were great in the middle of the field. When the pats had top 5 defenses, vrable,bruschi,colvin,and mcginnis ,batted,tiped,and made the qb throw through bodies. The texans don't have 1 good cover lb. Ryans gave up the same seam route to davis 1 game. Remember when gates went from unknown to superstar vs the texans? Who kills the texans more than clark? What about zack miller from the jags last year? Until the texans lbs get a clue about rutes, they can sign nitrane lane and it wouldn't matter.

DocBar
07-21-2011, 01:20 AM
Jacksons plight?

Did he fall down again?

I expect Jackson to improve alot. He will probably end up playing in the dime defense. The CB group will end up looking like this. IMHO

FA CB, Allen, Harris (nickle) Jackson/Carmicheal (Fighting it out for the dime)

Harris will be starting over Allen by mid season. I'm really high on Harris.Me too. I was stunned when they traded back into the 2nd to get him. Smith just doesn't pull off steals like that very often. I'm very hopeful for Carmichael, also. I really liked what I read/saw of him after the draft. Supposed to be another high effort guy who will put in the work and study time to improve his game.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 07:33 AM
i know my point was that we had all the same defense in 2009 and they werent to bad, then we plug in k. jac to D-Robs spot and we go to NEARLY one of the worst secondaries in NFL history.

So you assume that every player plays the same every year?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

If Pollard and Wilson had played as "well" as they did in 09, we wouldn't have seen much of Nolan, and the two of them would still have their job.

Wade: "Hey boys, I see that you guys are still playing great and Jackson sucked, so I think it's best to let you walk so that my team continues to suck with Jackson."

Yeah, right!

Lucky
07-21-2011, 07:41 AM
Those screen sshots really point out what I've said about shaub having slow feet and accuracy issues.
Schaub has been in the top 10 in completion % since he joined the Texans. If he has accuracy issues, who doesn't? And how can you get confirmation on a few plays out of nearly 600? Not that I'm challenging 76Texan to post screen shots of every play from 2010. Please don't. I'm just saying...

76Texan
07-21-2011, 07:43 AM
Those screen sshots really point out what I've said about shaub having slow feet and accuracy issues. This is abouut jackson, so let me stick with the topic.

Jax didn't play well, but the lbs,safeties, nor rush did him any favors. Against dallas, he was trying to press roy on a slant route. Roy beat the slant, and there wasn't a single lb or safety to squeeze the window. Unless you have deion at cb, non covering lbs and safeties are bigger issues against the pass than a corner. The best defenses in the league against the pass have front 7 people who can pressure and cover windows. Timmons-farrior in pitt and lewis-johnson combo in balt. When tb was really good defensively, brooks and quarles were great in the middle of the field. When the pats had top 5 defenses, vrable,bruschi,colvin,and mcginnis ,batted,tiped,and made the qb throw through bodies. The texans don't have 1 good cover lb. Ryans gave up the same seam route to davis 1 game. Remember when gates went from unknown to superstar vs the texans? Who kills the texans more than clark? What about zack miller from the jags last year? Until the texans lbs get a clue about rutes, they can sign nitrane lane and it wouldn't matter.

Agreed!
All you need to see is how the other team play us.
I've said that our CBs (as bad as they looked, and I mean all of them) still played better than the ones we saw accross the field (overall in 16 games).
The other guys had better LB and safety's help than ours.
Yet, Schaub still had a very good year even though AJ wasn't his normal self.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 07:49 AM
Schaub has been in the top 10 in completion % since he joined the Texans. If he has accuracy issues, who doesn't? And how can you get confirmation on a few plays out of nearly 600? Not that I'm challenging 76Texan to post screen shots of every play from 2010. Please don't. I'm just saying...

Schaub saw more pressure this past year.
Some of his passes that were off-target were due to pressure.
A few of them, he rushed a little bit for the same reason.
Some misses were due to miscommunication between him and the receivers.
He does miss some without any pressure, but all of the QBs do.
Overall, I don't see Schaub as having problem in this regard.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 08:00 AM
You aint shittin .... RB's and TE's had their way with this defese underneath.

Im really concerned with the LB's in this 3-4 we'll see this year with Barwin and MW on the outside.
Teams will find a way to force them to cover or exploit their un-willingness to do so.

Cushing wasnt good in coverage at all last season ... Sure he had INT's in his rookie season but those were more a result of his being in the right place at the right time rather than coverage ability.

Ryans ..... who knows how he's going to look coming off of this injury , he wasnt a world beater in coverage to begin with. Not bad just not great either.

They sure better improve the back end of this defense and hope like hell they can put a lot of pressure on opposing QB's because of the above.


I wonder how much of the LB's issues with coverage was scheme related and how much is just lack of ability in that particular skill. We'll have to wait to find out.

From my observations, I think because we played so much zone since Richard Smith, the back seven weren't taught to recognize route patterns as a whole.
When the opponents flood one zone with 2 or 3 receivers, we were left short-handed since we didn't stretch our zones very well as compared to better defenses.
The Ravens, for example, played a lot of zone, but their zone is much tighter than ours.

Wade's scheme relies on teaching the player to recognize routes and patterns. The LBs (especially the ILBs) will be of much more help in pass defense.

steelbtexan
07-21-2011, 08:08 AM
Those screen sshots really point out what I've said about shaub having slow feet and accuracy issues. This is abouut jackson, so let me stick with the topic.

Jax didn't play well, but the lbs,safeties, nor rush did him any favors. Against dallas, he was trying to press roy on a slant route. Roy beat the slant, and there wasn't a single lb or safety to squeeze the window. Unless you have deion at cb, non covering lbs and safeties are bigger issues against the pass than a corner. The best defenses in the league against the pass have front 7 people who can pressure and cover windows. Timmons-farrior in pitt and lewis-johnson combo in balt. When tb was really good defensively, brooks and quarles were great in the middle of the field. When the pats had top 5 defenses, vrable,bruschi,colvin,and mcginnis ,batted,tiped,and made the qb throw through bodies. The texans don't have 1 good cover lb. Ryans gave up the same seam route to davis 1 game. Remember when gates went from unknown to superstar vs the texans? Who kills the texans more than clark? What about zack miller from the jags last year? Until the texans lbs get a clue about rutes, they can sign nitrane lane and it wouldn't matter.

Good points

What concerns me is Cushing going to be better in coverage than last yr? Are Ryans (Achillies) and Barwin (having his foot turned around) going to be able to come back healthy and provide Farrior type coverage? These types of injuries take the quickness necessary to cover areas away. I have my doubts. But hope I'm wrong.

MW isn't ever going to be dropping into coverage so this isn't an issue for him.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 08:24 AM
Against dallas, he was trying to press roy on a slant route. Roy beat the slant, and there wasn't a single lb or safety to squeeze the window.

The main problem with this pass was that the Center crossed the LOS to block Diles (illegal man downfield - not called).
I'm sure both Diles and Wilson read "draw" and then "screen".

Wilson was flat-footed even after the pass had already left Romo's hand.
I bet you he was thinking: "draw, screen... what the heck, pass? Why wasn't there a flag thrown." And then it was too late.

Aikman in the booth must have seen it but he only said "No flag"!
If he didn't see it then he doesn't belong there!

Technique-wise, as Jackson put a hand up to Williams' chest to jam him, the receiver stepped to one side and put a hand on Jackson's BACK shoulder to steer him away. That's a smart move by a veteran (but illegal).
Jackson needs to learn a lot of tricks of the trade. A lot of it can be won or lost within the first seven yards.

This one is another of Jackson's plight.
It has nothing to do with his ability or inability.

Playing with 10 men on the field on the Galloway's TD and now letting the opponent get away with a TD on a play like this?

TimeKiller
07-21-2011, 08:41 AM
And part of the reason why it happened to Jackson more often than anyone is because of the extraordinarily bad safety help.

Not saying he would have been great, but he wouldn't have been anywhere as bad if he had gotten the help he was supposed to have gotten.

Yeah. And now those bums are on the street. Where is KJ? The starting lineup probably.

IDK....to me....I see him in the same light as Glover Quin. Bigger guy for a CB who is a step slow to be a CB but has decent speed, a willing and capable tackler and not the greatest coverage guy ever. By which I mean, I think they are both safeties. They could be the mythical twin safeties we've never had! They both fit that mold of Smithiak picks, big CBs who tackle as well or better than they cover. It's not even much of a stretch to put them both at S.

With Wade's picks of CB- Harris/Carmical filling in depth behind Allen and whoever they sign....you can even keep your boy Smithy, Antwan Molden!!!

Really though, Wade's CB picks seemed to go after guys whose best asset were COVERAGE. The only guy Smithiak picked that I thought his best asset was to cover was Fred Bennett. Molden's best asset is athleticism. Quin's is size/all around game. KJ's is....a good college defense.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:14 AM
Roy Williams, a TD that shouldn't have been!

These screen shots will show the Center crossed the LOS to block before the pass was released.
That's illegal. The play should have been blown dead as soon as the ball left Romo's hand.
Diles should have grabbed the Center and called it out to the ref.
Bush should have been fired on the spot as the Cowboys kicked the point after.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/111/vlcsnap-5887342.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/111/vlcsnap-5887432.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/111/vlcsnap-5887474.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/111/vlcsnap-5887492.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/111/vlcsnap-5887508.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:20 AM
Technique.
R. Williams with an illegal maneuver that is difficult for the side judge to see.
Jackson needs to learn to avoid it as best as a CB can (and pull out some tricks of his own.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/222/vlcsnap-7018061.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/222/vlcsnap-7018077.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/222/vlcsnap-7018088.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/222/vlcsnap-7018096.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/222/vlcsnap-7018104.jpg

Williams finished his maneuver with a hold right there that wasn't called either.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Wilson flat-footed even after the pass has already been thrown.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895257.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895276.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895294.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895309.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:28 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895324.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895336.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895349.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895362.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:33 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895370.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895380.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895388.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895396.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%203%20Cowboys/Roy%20Williams%20TD/333/vlcsnap-5895405.jpg

This is not two ships passing each other at night.
Rather, it was a ship that left Wilson stranded.
He may have been waiting for a flag, but then you need to play until after the whistle blows.
(After the game, they said that Wlson pulled a hammy on this play.)

76Texan
07-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Back to the two-receiver route, so how else can a defense play it?

The Chargers played it safe; even with Jammer (a #5 pick overall in 2003) at CB vs a one-legged AJ, they kept the safety back at bay.
They'd rather give up the underneath route.
Here's the 33-yd pass to Casey.

The Texans were in a 2-TE set so the Chargers brought in another safety.
Casey went into motion from left to right and ran the crossing route while AJ ran the deep route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/2TEset.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/vlcsnap-1102175.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/vlcsnap-1102331.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/vlcsnap-1102357.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/vlcsnap-1102375.jpg

You can see the whole sequence here.
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/Caset%2033yd%20Catch/

It doesn't show the CB and the safety at the end because they were both so deep.

(Note: The sub-album is in reverse order._

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:02 AM
The Chargers did the same thing on a 17-yd catch by JJ.
Notice that both CBs and the safety dropped deep.
Weddel did not jump until Schaub had thrown the pass (unlike Wilson who jumped way ahead.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Side/1-Lineup.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Side/3.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Side/6.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Side/7-JJ.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Side/8.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:10 AM
The view from behind the offense shows how Weddle played the deep middle to protect the LCB from AJ before he came down on the slant route.

You can see the whole sequence here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/JJ%2017yd%20catch/Front/

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:19 AM
And how about just great safety play?
How about some collegiate kid in his Junior year?
I have here Andre McDaniel in 09 (Clemson vs Miami).

He played the deep route first before jumping the underneath route for an INT.

Here's the side view:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6241029.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242372.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242389.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242401.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242414.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:23 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242424.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242476.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242487.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242496.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Side/vlcsnap-6242506.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:33 AM
The back view picks up as the QB already rolled out.
Compare the first screen shot of the following sequence (back view) with the first one from the previous one (side view.)

McDaniel was originally nearer to the hashmarks on the other side but had now moved accross the field with the roll-out action and the two-receiver route.

He got himself into much better position than any pro safety we've seen so far in this series.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244707.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244722.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244745.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244755.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244765.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:36 AM
You can see that the receiver adjusted by steering back to the outside, but McDaniel was still right there, forcing the QB to go with the underneath route.
(The LCB should also be on the outside of the receiver, perhaps trailing, just as any other CB we've seen.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244785.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244793.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244804.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244817.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244833.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:38 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244833.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244866.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244888.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/McDaniel%20INT/Bsck%20View/vlcsnap-6244899.jpg

thunderkyss
07-21-2011, 04:06 PM
MW isn't ever going to be dropping into coverage so this isn't an issue for him.

The few times I've seen Mario drop, he seems to understand zone coverage better than our regular LBs.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 04:37 PM
Here's the 45-yd pass to Steve Smith in the Giants game.
Smith put his hand on Jackson's head to push him away, getting seperaation in the process.
That should have been an offensive PI.
I don't know what a CB needs to do in this situation.
What does he need to do to protect himself better from the receiver?

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170255.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170263.jpg


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170269.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170283.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 04:39 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170289.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170295.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170299.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170302.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170305.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 04:41 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170308.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170311.jpg
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170315.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170331.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170341.jpg

76Texan
07-21-2011, 04:47 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170424.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170434.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170434.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170434.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%205%20Giants/Steve%20Smith%20noncalled%20PI/vlcsnap-2170465.jpg

Corrosion
07-21-2011, 05:01 PM
Here's the 45-yd pass to Steve Smith in the Giants game.
Smith put his hand on Jackson's head to push him away, getting seperaation in the process.
That should have been an offensive PI.
I don't know what a CB needs to do in this situation.
What does he need to do to protect himself better from the receiver?



Hope the ref doesnt drop his glasses ?

steelbtexan
07-21-2011, 08:32 PM
How did other DB's manage to not look as foolish as KJ?

KJ had a terrible yr. That's the bottom line. I Hope he improves this yr.

badboy
07-21-2011, 09:45 PM
From my observations, I think because we played so much zone since Richard Smith, the back seven weren't taught to recognize route patterns as a whole.
When the opponents flood one zone with 2 or 3 receivers, we were left short-handed since we didn't stretch our zones very well as compared to better defenses.
The Ravens, for example, played a lot of zone, but their zone is much tighter than ours.

Wade's scheme relies on teaching the player to recognize routes and patterns. The LBs (especially the ILBs) will be of much more help in pass defense.Good post.

badboy
07-21-2011, 09:47 PM
Me too. I was stunned when they traded back into the 2nd to get him. Smith just doesn't pull off steals like that very often. I'm very hopeful for Carmichael, also. I really liked what I read/saw of him after the draft. Supposed to be another high effort guy who will put in the work and study time to improve his game.click click

badboy
07-21-2011, 09:55 PM
I think KJ needs to not tangle with WR until arrival of ball. He cannot hem miss and lose balance or be re-directed illegally or legally. He needs to re-train to a cover type corner rather than bump.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 10:21 PM
How did other DB's manage to not look as foolish as KJ?

KJ had a terrible yr. That's the bottom line. I Hope he improves this yr.

Every play is different.
I'll ask you, just as I had asked EllisUnit and Lucky on each specific play, what is it that you think he did poorly or foolish.

Why can any one of you answer any of those questions?

I had posted each play in question and provided the scenarios.
The best anyone can get is like he shouldnt be in bump and run; he had a bad year, he fell down.

What did he do wrong in this play?
What is it that you want your CB to do in this instance?

All the plays are still there, in vivid color.
Why did you think he did poorly in any of those plays, I'd like to hear it!

Even as to those who think he fell down too much (and he did), please show me those scenarios and tell me how much harm he did to the team.

And of course, most people don't want to recognize the things that he did well to help the team.

People says oh I've seen all of it, I don't need to rewatch any of it.
The truth of the matter is most of us don't have the multi-proccessing brain of a computer. We can't see all around us 360 degree at the same time, and on top of that we don't know what each of the 22 players were supposed to do.

However, as I've said, the season is done with a long time ago.
Please take a look at each play seperately.
How would Asomugha or Newman or any of the guys you want would do in such a situation.

Would they do any better in such cirscumtances?
Tell me why, because I have shown you that all those guys had not fare any better in the same situation.

Corrosion
07-21-2011, 10:28 PM
I think KJ needs to not tangle with WR until arrival of ball. He cannot hem miss and lose balance or be re-directed illegally or legally. He needs to re-train to a cover type corner rather than bump.

If you take away the potential jam at the LOS you have P-Burnt playing 7 yards deep on 3rd and three , Ive seen enough of that song and dance routine to last me a lifetime .....

Jackson simply has to improve that aspect of his game , not abandon it. Him being a rookie , you expect the wily veteran recievers to use and abuse him to some extent. Lets just hope he's learned the lessons that his rookie year taught him and we dont see the same mistakes.

EllisUnit
07-21-2011, 10:44 PM
Every play is different.
I'll ask you, just as I had asked EllisUnit and Lucky on each specific play, what is it that you think he did poorly or foolish.

Why can any one of you answer any of those questions?

I had posted each play in question and provided the scenarios.
The best anyone can get is like he shouldnt be in bump and run; he had a bad year, he fell down.

What did he do wrong in this play?
What is it that you want your CB to do in this instance?

All the plays are still there, in vivid color.
Why did you think he did poorly in any of those plays, I'd like to hear it!

Even as to those who think he fell down too much (and he did), please show me those scenarios and tell me how much harm he did to the team.

And of course, most people don't want to recognize the things that he did well to help the team.

People says oh I've seen all of it, I don't need to rewatch any of it.
The truth of the matter is most of us don't have the multi-proccessing brain of a computer. We can't see all around us 360 degree at the same time, and on top of that we don't know what each of the 22 players were supposed to do.

However, as I've said, the season is done with a long time ago.
Please take a look at each play seperately.
How would Asomugha or Newman or any of the guys you want would do in such a situation.

Would they do any better in such cirscumtances?
Tell me why, because I have shown you that all those guys had not fare any better in the same situation.

Most of what i have seen is college photos, our other teams photos ur trying to justify why he looked foolish by showing other teams and how they get beat our win for whatever reason. Show me some slide shows of Allen that proves he's worse than K. Jac. Dont get me wrong 76 i love ur enthusiasm i really do, BUT i know what i saw last season, was it rookie mistakes, sure most of it, but rookie mistakes our not Jackson was BAD, and there is no glass half full with that, its not all the safties fault our because he was done wrong by a WR on a missed Ref call. How many times do we see a play like that obvious hold on M. Williams during the hail mary during the jags game where we lost. there is always illegal stuff going on, and he has to deal with it along with all the other CBs in the league. K. Jac was just bad, noone to blame but himself. Hopefully he has some kind of revelation and comes back with a vengance and makes the pro bowl and becomes a Hall of famer, but according to last season he has a lot of work to do.

thunderkyss
07-21-2011, 10:50 PM
Me too. I was stunned when they traded back into the 2nd to get him. Smith just doesn't pull off steals like that very often. I'm very hopeful for Carmichael, also. I really liked what I read/saw of him after the draft. Supposed to be another high effort guy who will put in the work and study time to improve his game.

I've got high hopes for Brandon Harris.... I think he is the steal of the draft & a true cover corner. If this guy plays like I hope, he could easily be a legit #2.

If we are able to sign Aso, & Carmichael is a true nickel.... it doesn't look good for KJac.

Not that KJac is a bust, or could turn into a fine corner, he's just not the kind of guy I would have went after. Run support from the corners has been too high a priority for way too long in H-Town.

& for what KJac does, he needs a team with smart safeties. Like Quin.

DocBar
07-21-2011, 10:52 PM
Most of what i have seen is college photos, our other teams photos ur trying to justify why he looked foolish by showing other teams and how they get beat our win for whatever reason. Show me some slide shows of Allen that proves he's worse than K. Jac. Dont get me wrong 76 i love ur enthusiasm i really do, BUT i know what i saw last season, was it rookie mistakes, sure most of it, but rookie mistakes our not Jackson was BAD, and there is no glass half full with that, its not all the safties fault our because he was done wrong by a WR on a missed Ref call. How many times do we see a play like that obvious hold on M. Williams during the hail mary during the jags game where we lost. there is always illegal stuff going on, and he has to deal with it along with all the other CBs in the league. K. Jac was just bad, noone to blame but himself. Hopefully he has some kind of revelation and comes back with a vengance and makes the pro bowl and becomes a Hall of famer, but according to last season he has a lot of work to do.According to last season, the defense as a whole has a lot of work to do. Unfortunately, they aren't going to have much time to do it in.

thunderkyss
07-21-2011, 10:53 PM
How did other DB's manage to not look as foolish as KJ?

KJ had a terrible yr. That's the bottom line. I Hope he improves this yr.

Maybe you should go back to the beginning of this thread.... 76 shows plenty of footage of other CBs looking just as foolish.

That's the whole point of this thread.

badboy
07-21-2011, 10:54 PM
If you take away the potential jam at the LOS you have P-Burnt playing 7 yards deep on 3rd and three , Ive seen enough of that song and dance routine to last me a lifetime .....

Jackson simply has to improve that aspect of his game , not abandon it. Him being a rookie , you expect the wily veteran recievers to use and abuse him to some extent. Lets just hope he's learned the lessons that his rookie year taught him and we dont see the same mistakes.What? There are corners who line up against WR and turn and run Like Revis, Aso and I believe Harris. There are corners from draft two years ago that do not play off WR 7 yards. This flabergasts me. If you don't put yout hands on WRF in tghe 5 yard area, he can't re-direct you legally.

76Texan
07-21-2011, 11:43 PM
Most of what i have seen is college photos, our other teams photos ur trying to justify why he looked foolish by showing other teams and how they get beat our win for whatever reason. Show me some slide shows of Allen that proves he's worse than K. Jac. Dont get me wrong 76 i love ur enthusiasm i really do, BUT i know what i saw last season, was it rookie mistakes, sure most of it, but rookie mistakes our not Jackson was BAD, and there is no glass half full with that, its not all the safties fault our because he was done wrong by a WR on a missed Ref call. How many times do we see a play like that obvious hold on M. Williams during the hail mary during the jags game where we lost. there is always illegal stuff going on, and he has to deal with it along with all the other CBs in the league. K. Jac was just bad, noone to blame but himself. Hopefully he has some kind of revelation and comes back with a vengance and makes the pro bowl and becomes a Hall of famer, but according to last season he has a lot of work to do.

The thing is you have shown me nothing.
Trust me when some folks who appreciated what I'm doing while having a little negative feedback about some of the harsh criticism, I just brushed it aside saying that different opinions are good and welcomed. I don't mind it a bit.

But so far, you haven't shown me (like I've shown you as I've been defending Jackson).
Maybe you can show me the hail mary and how Jackson committed PI.
Don't you think for a minute that I haven't studied that play to deadth, as I've studied all the other plays.
(I've done my homework, it's not bragging.)

You keep saying that he was bad, but everytime you brought up the "bad", I gave you the true pictures.
You went left and right and can never prove that he was bad.
If bad means the same as Asomugha, Newman, Mathis, Revis, and other higher draft choices who are veterans then yes, Jackson was bad just the same (only he was bad in his rookie season while the others were bad in their prime.)

steelbtexan
07-21-2011, 11:56 PM
I get what y'all are saying.

But I didn't see these things happen to Aso/Revis etc...

I didn't see Aso getting burned for TD's and 100+ yds by an undrafted FA. Serge Ahanatou. sp?

As you've proved KJ wasn't totally at fault. Wilson/Pollard stunk too. But I expected a whole lot more out of a highly rated draft pick than KJ gave us.

Obviously the pass defense was historically bad and KJ was a big part of that. I have hopes KJ can greatly improve under the new coaching regime. But He's going to have to prove it on the field.

TEXANRED
07-22-2011, 12:11 AM
Jackson's plight is that he was drafted to high, he started right away, he is 2-3 years from being a decent CB, and he is just not a good NFL player.

Our scouting department along with Rick Smith should do the right thing and perform Seppuku for their shame.

DocBar
07-22-2011, 12:20 AM
Jackson's plight is that he was drafted to high, he started right away, he is 2-3 years from being a decent CB, and he is just not a good NFL player.
Our scouting department along with Rick Smith should do the right thing and perform Seppuku for their shame.Those seem to be mutualy exclusive and contradictory. Most NFL rookies are 2-3 years from being good at their positions.

76Texan
07-22-2011, 12:20 AM
Show me some slide shows of Allen that proves he's worse than K. Jac.

That is in the card, my young man (I do like your enthusiasm too).
Some of the things I can show you (if I have time) includes the time he was with the Dolphins.
It will be kinda funny though, the Dolphins time, it looks like he was alright (and pretty good even).
I don't know what to tell you; on the surface, Allen had his good moments (like Pollard).
His bad moments were here and there but insignificant to a casual fan (this last season), yet he was canned.
He was canned for the things I saw, not the stats line he showed (as a Dolphins.)
It will be hard to prove; all I know is that he can only be canned because what I observed.
As a casual fan, if I present to you what he did as a Dolphins, you would say, why did them stupid coaches give him the pink slip for.
But they did. I don't know what else to tell you.
They saw what I must have been learning to see... the big picture.
Otherwise, it would have been totally foolish of them to let him go.

As a Texan, he showed much the same, only a liittle worse.
And I will show you.
He was not terrible, because as I've said, our CBs played better than the opponents'.
He's somewhat similar to Pollard. He can make some good plays and then he would give it all up. For a veteran, you can't have that.

Personally, I want a bunch of players who know what they are doing.
Sure, they can get beat here and there because they are not the strongest, nor the fastest.
But as long as they are capable somewhat in that regard, I will take them any time they show me they can do very well in the team concept.

I will play eleven guys against your 9 or 10 guys anytime, even though my guys are slower or smaller, or not as physical.

dtran04
07-22-2011, 12:24 AM
The one Allen play that pissed me off was the long pass at the end of the Jets game. Played inside for no reason at all and let the guy catch a bomb at the sidelines. I would hope the coaches didn't tell him to do that. If they did...well, they are fired anyway.

DocBar
07-22-2011, 12:24 AM
That is in the card, my young man (I do like your enthusiasm too).
Some of the things I can show you (if I have time) includes the time he was with the Dolphins.
It will be kinda funny though, the Dolphins time, it looks like he was alright (and pretty good even).
I don't know what to tell you; on the surface, Allen had his good moments (like Pollard).
His bad moments were here and there but insignificant to a casual fan (this last season), yet he was canned.
He was canned for the things I saw, not the stats line he showed (as a Dolphins.)
It will be hard to prove; all I know is that he can only be canned because what I observed.
As a casual fan, if I present to you what he did as a Dolphins, you would say, why did them stupid coaches give him the pink slip for.
But they did. I don't know what else to tell you.
They saw what I must have been learning to see... the big picture.
Otherwise, it would have been totally foolish of them to let him go.

As a Texan, he showed much the same, only a liittle worse.
And I will show you.
He was not terrible, because as I've said, our CBs played better than the opponents'.
He's somewhat similar to Pollard. He can make some good plays and then he would give it all up. For a veteran, you can't have that.

Personally, I want a bunch of players who know what they are doing.
Sure, they can get beat here and there because they are not the strongest, nor the fastest.
But as long as they are capable somewhat in that regard, I will take them any time they show me they can do very well in the team concept.

I will play eleven guys against your 9 or 10 guys anytime, even though my guys are slower or smaller, or not as physical.I don't understand how you can find evidence that Revis, Aso, etc. could get burned the same way KJ did but have a hard time finding that evidence for Allen. Look at the same games, just on the other side of the field. :fingergun:
I just don't get that bolded part at all.

EllisUnit
07-22-2011, 12:24 AM
The thing is you have shown me nothing.
Trust me when some folks who appreciated what I'm doing while having a little negative feedback about some of the harsh criticism, I just brushed it aside saying that different opinions are good and welcomed. I don't mind it a bit.

But so far, you haven't shown me (like I've shown you as I've been defending Jackson).
Maybe you can show me the hail mary and how Jackson committed PI.
Don't you think for a minute that I haven't studied that play to deadth, as I've studied all the other plays.
(I've done my homework, it's not bragging.)

You keep saying that he was bad, but everytime you brought up the "bad", I gave you the true pictures.
You went left and right and can never prove that he was bad.
If bad means the same as Asomugha, Newman, Mathis, Revis, and other higher draft choices who are veterans then yes, Jackson was bad just the same (only he was bad in his rookie season while the others were bad in their prime.)

Why show you when we ALL saw the same games and the same Kareem Jackson. We all saw him chasing WRs after he got beat, we all saw him fall down, and fall down, and down. Why do i not go so into depth ??? Because i know how bad he was, and i dont have to try to prove that to myself. You ever heard someone try to convince you of something that you know was not correct, i'm seeing a lot of that. Looking for any little thing to prove K. Jac was not as "bad" as we thought, our how he was so unfairly played due to our safeties, our because WRs doing illegal moves on him. Well he was bad and i know it, a lot of people on here know it, thats why i dont take the time to post play by play photos. I have nothing to prove to you our anyone cause like i said i KNOW he was bad.

76Texan
07-22-2011, 12:34 AM
I get what y'all are saying.

But I didn't see these things happen to Aso/Revis etc...

I didn't see Aso getting burned for TD's and 100+ yds by an undrafted FA. Serge Ahanatou. sp?

As you've proved KJ wasn't totally at fault. Wilson/Pollard stunk too. But I expected a whole lot more out of a highly rated draft pick than KJ gave us.

Obviously the pass defense was historically bad and KJ was a big part of that. I have hopes KJ can greatly improve under the new coaching regime. But He's going to have to prove it on the field.

Go back to page 3 where Aso was in the same boat as Kjackson, only worse.
he was a mile from the play.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114&page=3

According to your standard, Aso had his A kicked that day.
Check out my pictures at Photobucket.
Aso was kicked by the same two-receiver route (as you and other depicted).
He was kicked by the slant route.
He was kicked as the receiver cut back outside.
He was kicked by the back shoulder fade.
If you watch that game, I don't know how you can throw money at him.

FYI, the title in my album is "Aso or Jackson" something like that.

The Pencil Neck
07-22-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't understand how you can find evidence that Revis, Aso, etc. could get burned the same way KJ did but have a hard time finding that evidence for Allen. Look at the same games, just on the other side of the field. :fingergun:
I just don't get that bolded part at all.

One of the plays that 76Texan showed (in exquisite detail) had KJack expecting a little safety help but there was only 10 guys on the field and the safety he was expecting help from was the guy that was missing. So KJ looked really bad but it was because of that lack of help.

DocBar
07-22-2011, 12:43 AM
One of the plays that 76Texan showed (in exquisite detail) had KJack expecting a little safety help but there was only 10 guys on the field and the safety he was expecting help from was the guy that was missing. So KJ looked really bad but it was because of that lack of help.I understood that and liked it. I was questioning why he would have a hard time finding evidence for Allen playing poorly last season. See post 162. KJ had a bad rookie year, but he wasn't the only one is what I'm getting at. There's more than enough blame to lay at the feet of the entire secondary.

Corrosion
07-22-2011, 12:45 AM
Every CB gets beat ..... Thats why they say the position requires a short memory.

The Texans secondary last season was BAD .... Piss Poor but you cant place all the blame on one or two guy's. They all made mistakes. Hell , even when they made a play (Jacksonville - Quin) they came up snake-eyes.


Jackson made mistakes , lots of them (Ive made a hundred jokes about him falling down) .... but there is every reason to believe that he improves going forward - thats the nature of the business and the position.


Either way , we will see the guy on the field quite often next season like it or not .... Even if they sign Aso or whothe ****ever.

Rey
07-22-2011, 12:50 AM
Funny how all these bad situations seemed to find kj.

I thunk being cursed is worse than sucking.

Corrosion
07-22-2011, 12:51 AM
Funny how all these bad situations seemed to find kj.

I thunk being cursed is worse than sucking.

That team was nothing short of snake bit last season ..... :ahhaha:

76Texan
07-22-2011, 12:59 AM
I don't understand how you can find evidence that Revis, Aso, etc. could get burned the same way KJ did but have a hard time finding that evidence for Allen. Look at the same games, just on the other side of the field. :fingergun:
I just don't get that bolded part at all.

I never said it's hard "for me" to find evidence.
It's pretty easy in fact, as one is a veteran and one is a rookie.
Don't worry, I'll get to it!

But why is it that it's always me?
This is an honest question.
If you love football then it's on you to really watch and not glossing over Quin's or Allen's mistakes or poor plays.

I pretty much challenged people to compare Jackson and Allen's plays the time Allen got here.

Did anybody show me anything? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I've had the Jets game analysis presented a while ago, for example.
Any challenge? NOOOOOOO!

Sorry, I don't mean to be hostile or anything near that.
I'm not a born Texans, but I know quite a few, and I learn their stubborn spirit for over 35 years now!

:hurrah:

76Texan
07-22-2011, 01:08 AM
Funny how all these bad situations seemed to find kj.

I thunk being cursed is worse than sucking.

See, that's why I mean by generalization.

If you know football, and you love football, go through each of these plays with me, and give me your opinion how, what, and why things can be better.
Don't be a common fan.
You say you're not.
Learn me what I don't know!

DocBar
07-22-2011, 01:41 AM
I never said it's hard "for me" to find evidence.
It's pretty easy in fact, as one is a veteran and one is a rookie.
Don't worry, I'll get to it!

But why is it that it's always me?
This is an honest question.
If you love football then it's on you to really watch and not glossing over Quin's or Allen's mistakes or poor plays.

I pretty much challenged people to compare Jackson and Allen's plays the time Allen got here.

Did anybody show me anything? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I've had the Jets game analysis presented a while ago, for example.
Any challenge? NOOOOOOO!

Sorry, I don't mean to be hostile or anything near that.
I'm not a born Texans, but I know quite a few, and I learn their stubborn spirit for over 35 years now!

:hurrah:I work way too many hours a week to be able to devote as much time to this as you do. I really do enjoy your breakdowns of the games and plays and think you do a good job.
Don't get all butt hurt with me. LOL :handshake:

76Texan
07-22-2011, 01:41 AM
Why show you when we ALL saw the same games and the same Kareem Jackson. We all saw him chasing WRs after he got beat, we all saw him fall down, and fall down, and down. Why do i not go so into depth ??? Because i know how bad he was, and i dont have to try to prove that to myself. You ever heard someone try to convince you of something that you know was not correct, i'm seeing a lot of that. Looking for any little thing to prove K. Jac was not as "bad" as we thought, our how he was so unfairly played due to our safeties, our because WRs doing illegal moves on him. Well he was bad and i know it, a lot of people on here know it, thats why i dont take the time to post play by play photos. I have nothing to prove to you our anyone cause like i said i KNOW he was bad.

Until you bring something, have a good day!

When you don't have nothing to prove, you don't need to be engaging in any debate. Sorry, it is how it is!

Corrosion
07-22-2011, 01:52 AM
Until you bring something, have a good day!

When you don't have nothing to prove, you don't need to be engaging in any debate. Sorry, it is how it is!

76 You been hangin out in the NSZ ?

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 02:56 AM
Funny how all these bad situations seemed to find kj.

I thunk being cursed is worse than sucking.

If we collectively scrutinized our other corners, you would find just as many.

If we collectively scrutinized Kyle Wilson or Antonio Cromartie, you'll find just as many.

There are several reasons why some of us are hung up on KJac, some are good, some are bad...... but we're focused on him none-the-less & every little thing he does is big news.

We're talking about Jason Allen like he should be a pro-bowler....... that should be enough to warn us that something ain't right... slow down.... rethink the whole situation.

There are somethings every corner should be able to do. There are somethings that no corner can be expected to do.

We know about his speed issue.... no one is denying that.
We know about his falling down....

In this thread, 76 has shown us how other teams played a common 2 receiver route... AJ whupped their asses... these aren't Texans' starters, these are bonafide would-be-starters on other teams. But it is an impossible route for a CB to cover on his own. With the other players out of position it is easy to see why some uninformed critics would lay the blame solely at the feet of the CB. Then you throw in the television production crews, who will sensationalize grass growing if they could....... & you've got fans watching KJac getting burned again & again & again. (Even though it wasn't KJac who got burned).

Rey
07-22-2011, 04:57 AM
See, that's why I mean by generalization.

If you know football, and you love football, go through each of these plays with me, and give me your opinion how, what, and why things can be better.
Don't be a common fan.
You say you're not.
Learn me what I don't know!

I will as soon as I'm off my phone and on the computer.

What I think you should do though is look at the plays where Kareem screwed up.

All corners get beat or "appear to get beat".

That's why you have to have a short memory at the position. So yeah, you can point out plays where aso got beat or revis got schooled. Difference is those guys make their safeties job easier. Kjax doesn't. Even if you're expecting help that doesn't mean you let the wr do what ever they want. You still should be in playmaking distance. Sometimes the safeties will bite on other things. Tis the nature of being a safety.

The difference between the good corners and the shitty ones is that the good ones have the ability to atleast occasionally bail out bad play from others around them.

If you can only perform when the safeties are exactly where they should be, then you're not that good.

If you seem to screw up Everytime a safety is out of position then you are too handicapped to play the position. It's football. People around you are going to mess up.


Funny how other corners didn't find themselves in the same positions kj was in even though they were playing in the same defense and often times against better receivers.

Kjs footwork was awful. Once guys got past him he had no make up speed. He didn't make plays on the field. He wasn't strong at the Los.

I will go back and look at the plays but if you want to talk football we can talk about his timid demeanor in coverage and his shitty techniques.

I get he was a rookie, but he looked lost. Not very instinctual.

It looked like at times like he had no preparation throughout the week and was just told to react to whatever route was run. You see other corners occasionally jump routes because they've seen it on film, and have a feeling it's about to be run. They key off something. Jackson was all reactionary with poor technique.

It's fine too look at plays and say he should have had help, but you have to take into account the total picture. You're a corner you're going to get beat. My coach used to tell the DBS that all the time. But then he'd follow it up with "at least be in position to tackle the guy or slow him down".

Getting beat doesn't mean you have to give up super long td's or huge chunks of yardage.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties job easier?

Rey
07-22-2011, 05:15 AM
it is an impossible route for a CB to cover on his own. With the other players out of position it is easy to see why some uninformed critics would lay the blame solely at the feet of the CB. Then you throw in the television production crews, who will sensationalize grass growing if they could....... & you've got fans watching KJac getting burned again & again & again. (Even though it wasn't KJac who got burned).

Who has laid blame solely on anyone?

The safeties aren't even here anymore.

I've yet to see anyone defend the safeties and say kjax made them look worse than what they were. Even though if you think about it logically that was probably the case.

Wilson wasnt a world beater but he looked a lot better when dunta, reeves, and Quinn were at corner. Pollard had a very good season the year before.

Funny how they both fell off and looked like shit when the kiddie corners took the field.

Last year though, it was a collective effort of suckiness from all parties involved.

The safeties weren't good enough to mask the cb's deficiencies and the corners weren't good enough to mask the safeties miscues.

It's a two way street back there in coverage. Sometimes one or the other will mess up. Sometimes both. But the question is do you have enough talent back there to balance things out.

We did not. The coaching was poor, the safeties were poor and yes despite the many cries to the contrary in this thread Kareem Jackson was poor.

Pointing out someone elses mistake is not evidence that Jackson actually played well. All that means is that he us not talented enough to cover up others mistakes.

Also, this two receiver route you guys are talking about is not impossible to cover. Harder? Maybe. "impossible to cover". . . No.

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 06:11 AM
Pointing out someone elses mistake is not evidence that Jackson actually played well. All that means is that he us not talented enough to cover up others mistakes.

Also, this two receiver route you guys are talking about is not impossible to cover. Harder? Maybe. "impossible to cover". . . No.

Just about all of the photos in this thread have the offense running the same 2 receiver route. All of them show corners, more experienced than KJac in the same position. Including Aso, no position to make a play.

No one is talking about how bad those corners are. KJac is getting scrutinized here for doing the same thing others have done.

Dunta sucked flat out. I dont' believe he would have helped this team one bit in 2010. I don't think he should have been starting in 2009.

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 06:13 AM
As Walter turned back to the inside, he naturally got separation from the LCB.
This guy simply doesn't know which way the receiver was going.
Remember that this was not man coverage (because the other CB never followed AJ on the crossing route.)


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972112.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972122.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972132.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972142.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Week%201%20Indy/Walter%202/vlcsnap-2972150.jpg

I think some people have gotten too far away from the spirit of this thread.... this is just a little reminder of where we started.

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 06:21 AM
Here's the series where Namdi was in the same boat as Jackson.
This one resulted in a 41-yd TD, but it could have been 99yd for all we know.
In the first screen shot, you cannot see the safety but he's back there.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/1Lineup.jpg

bump

Rey
07-22-2011, 07:33 AM
Just about all of the photos in this thread have the offense running the same 2 receiver route. All of them show corners, more experienced than KJac in the same position. Including Aso, no position to make a play.

No one is talking about how bad those corners are. KJac is getting scrutinized here for doing the same thing others have done.

Dunta sucked flat out. I dont' believe he would have helped this team one bit in 2010. I don't think he should have been starting in 2009.

All corners get burned.

I didn't expect kjax to be flawless. And the colts corners suck too.

Show me aso getting roasted all year long like kj and maybe I'll see the point.

Abs btw, I think he actaully has talent. But all this stuff about him not looking as bad as he was is ridiculous. Dude was awful last year and he'll be the first to tell you that.

If the route was not able to be adequately defended in man coverage offenses would run it a lot more often and offenses would be a lot more unstoppable.

In fact I've see NFL corners defend that route perfectly.

Rey
07-22-2011, 07:36 AM
While you're at it show some footage of Deion being roasted.

Not sure what on earth any of that has to do with Kareem being as bad as he was last year, but might as well show the breakdown.

76Texan
07-22-2011, 08:45 AM
While you're at it show some footage of Deion being roasted.

Not sure what on earth any of that has to do with Kareem being as bad as he was last year, but might as well show the breakdown.

I've already presented a couple of game analyis (Colst week 1) and Jets.
It showed that KJax was the CB that had the best performance of the day in each.
Give me time and and I will upload screenshots to show all of that.
(But why can't you show me anything that prove your point , that KJax sucked?)

Now, I don't have Sanders, but if you reread this whole thread, you can see Aso getting burned against the Chargers, not just by the same two-receiver route (in which he was much further away from the action than KJax), but also a 34-yd backshoulder fade on which he was also called for PI.
He also got called for holding and PI on two other seperate plays where he can't afford to let the receiver cut back to the outside. (These are in the gamebook at NFL.com, I don't need to post screenshots of penalties, do I?)
He also got beat as he allowed Floyd to cut back to the outside on another play, but Rivers left the ball just long due to pressure.

Or as Lucky put it, he was "owned" by Floyd the whole game.

Here's a slant route:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/15yd%20slant/

Here's a post route:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/13yd%20post%20route/

76Texan
07-22-2011, 08:54 AM
I work way too many hours a week to be able to devote as much time to this as you do. I really do enjoy your breakdowns of the games and plays and think you do a good job.
Don't get all butt hurt with me. LOL :handshake:

I certainly don't mind it at all.
A good friend of mine of some 30 years still butt-head with me about KJax.
He's too busy to watch all of these evidence even though I am willing to sit down and go over all 16 games with him.
He said (like Rey said) that he didn't need to rewath anything, that he believe his own eyes.

I still see him pretty much every week.

EllisUnit
07-22-2011, 11:02 AM
I've already presented a couple of game analyis (Colst week 1) and Jets.
It showed that KJax was the CB that had the best performance of the day in each.
Give me time and and I will upload screenshots to show all of that.
(But why can't you show me anything that prove your point , that KJax sucked?)

Now, I don't have Sanders, but if you reread this whole thread, you can see Aso getting burned against the Chargers, not just by the same two-receiver route (in which he was much further away from the action than KJax), but also a 34-yd backshoulder fade on which he was also called for PI.
He also got called for holding and PI on two other seperate plays where he can't afford to let the receiver cut back to the outside. (These are in the gamebook at NFL.com, I don't need to post screenshots of penalties, do I?)
He also got beat as he allowed Floyd to cut back to the outside on another play, but Rivers left the ball just long due to pressure.

Or as Lucky put it, he was "owned" by Floyd the whole game.

Here's a slant route:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/15yd%20slant/

Here's a post route:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Asomugha/KJ%20or%20Aso/13yd%20post%20route/

2 games out of 16 - not great odds. Plus all we saw were slide shows of why K. Jac got beat, our how he was unfairly played due to illegal stuff by WRs, our he looked bad because of safties. And i think most of us dont even bother trying to PROVE how he sucked last season because most everyone "besides" you saw how he played and how bad he sucked. Is is easier to convience someone that their our aliens (K. Jac was good) our that the world isnt flat (K. Jac was bad) i think the obvious here.

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 12:01 PM
2 games out of 16 - not great odds. Plus all we saw were slide shows of why K. Jac got beat, our how he was unfairly played due to illegal stuff by WRs, our he looked bad because of safties. And i think most of us dont even bother trying to PROVE how he sucked last season because most everyone "besides" you saw how he played and how bad he sucked. Is is easier to convience someone that their our aliens (K. Jac was good) our that the world isnt flat (K. Jac was bad) i think the obvious here.

Personally, I don't have a problem saying KJac didn't play well.

My problem is people expecting him to have played better.

My problem is people thinking Dunta played better.

My problem is people thinking Jason Allen played better.

KJac is being scape goated here.... He was bad.... but no worse than you should expect from a rookie corner. He was not the worse corner we had last year..... one of the two best.. I think so.

He most definitely wasn't the biggest problem in our secondary. & he isn't our biggest liability in pass defense.

Rey
07-22-2011, 03:32 PM
Personally, I don't have a problem saying KJac didn't play well.

My problem is people expecting him to have played better.

My problem is people thinking Dunta played better.

My problem is people thinking Jason Allen played better.

KJac is being scape goated here.... He was bad.... but no worse than you should expect from a rookie corner. He was not the worse corner we had last year..... one of the two best.. I think so.

He most definitely wasn't the biggest problem in our secondary. & he isn't our biggest liability in pass defense.

Dunta did play better k jax was not one of the better DBS last year and he is not being scapegoated because he still has a job.

Pollard was scapegoated. Not kj.

I don't ever recall a corner getting all twisted up at the Los and roasted for a long td the way Roy williams did him.

He actually had me missing reeves. Atleast he uses to be in playmaking distance. Dunta was not good, but dammit I missed him too.

Kj had me missing almost every scrub corner we've ever trotted out there.


He was not good and I'm not sure how you guys can't see that. Pulling up a few plays out of the hundreds he played is not evidence. Pulling up a couple of plays from aso is not evidence. It's a mere sample. I looked at them and you can't really tell much from still shots.

You can't really see what the technique looks like which is most of the battle. You can't see quickness in and out of cuts. You can't see how fluid the backpedal is or what they look like when they turn their hips.

I think you guys are the ones over simplifying things.

Using a small sample size and then declaring that because the safety wasn't where he needed to be kj looked bad.

We don't Where the safety needed to be. And we don't know how the coaches had the secondary playing.

There is a such thing as a corner being in one on one coverage with one or both of the safeties being in a middle zone. Just because you think it should be cover two doesn't mean it is.

I saw enough last year to come to two conclusions. He has talent, he had an awful first year. That's it. Breaking down particular plays is not something I'm going to do. I saw enough bad things all on my own watching the games last year, and none of the bad things were due to him not having help.

At times he was put in a bad position, but the coaches thought they had a number one corner which is all their fault.

Lucky
07-22-2011, 07:12 PM
Or as Lucky put it, he was "owned" by Floyd the whole game.

Great job of pointing out the only game of 300+ yards passing the Raiders allowed in 2010. The Raiders (with Asomugha) had the 2nd ranked pass defense in yards allowed in 2010.

Kareem Jackson and the Texans pass defense? 5 games of 300+ passing yardage allowed and 32nd (also known as last) in the league in passing yardage. The Texans allowed more passing yardage (267 ypg) than any other defense over the past 5 seasons. I don't know how 1 million screen shots can erase that fact.

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 07:44 PM
I saw enough last year to come to two conclusions. He has talent, he had an awful first year. That's it. Breaking down particular plays is not something I'm going to do. I saw enough bad things all on my own watching the games last year, and none of the bad things were due to him not having help.

Well, hell, then you agree with us.


At times he was put in a bad position, but the coaches thought they had a number one corner which is all their fault.

We don't know that he isn't a number one. I do agree the decision to start him & play him as a #1 wasn't a good idea... Terrance Newman didn't look as bad, but Terrance Newman didn't play on this team....

DRC didn't look great his first year. Reevis didn't start for much of his first year. Kyle Wilson didn't look great his first year.

I don't know that KJac won't be a true #1 before it's all said & done, but he has a lot of perception to overcome...

thunderkyss
07-22-2011, 07:52 PM
Great job of pointing out the only game of 300+ yards passing the Raiders allowed in 2010. The Raiders (with Asomugha) had the 2nd ranked pass defense in yards allowed in 2010.

Kareem Jackson and the Texans pass defense? 5 games of 300+ passing yardage allowed and 32nd (also known as last) in the league in passing yardage. The Texans allowed more passing yardage (267 ypg) than any other defense over the past 5 seasons. I don't know how 1 million screen shots can erase that fact.

That wasn't the point. We aren't trying to compare the Texans pass defense with the Raiders or KJac with Aso.

What 76 is illustrating is that the receiver has the edge, always in one on one coverage. The corner has no idea when the ball is going to release, or where the receiver is trying to get to. The defensive scheme dictates how the corner is going to play a particular route on a particular down. Expecting safety help inside, you have to honor the outside route, where there is no help. When you do that, the receiver gets natural separation if they cut back inside. Which is ok, because there is supposed to be a safety there. If the safety isn't there, the easy (and wrong call) would be to blame the CB for being a talentless clueless P.O.S. even though he did exactly what he was supposed to.

We know it is exactly what he was supposed to do, because that is exactly what pro-bowl corners (& the Colts corner) did.

Unless you are saying each one of those corners in the exact same situation played that situation wrong. If that is your argument, all 76 is asking, is to tell him when & where you saw it done right. A picture or video would be nice... but no one is taking him up on that one.

Lucky
07-22-2011, 08:13 PM
Unless you are saying each one of those corners in the exact same situation played that situation wrong. If that is your argument, all 76 is asking, is to tell him when & where you saw it done right. A picture or video would be nice... but no one is taking him up on that one.
Don't be obtuse. I watched every play of the Texans 2010 season, as well as many other NFL games. In my lifetime, I've watched over 1000 NFL games. I know what a good cornerback looks like. I know what a bad cornerback looks like. In the 2010 season, Kareem Jackson was a bad cornerback. Even for a rookie. The results back me up.

I'm not saying Jackson was well supported by the players or the coaches surrounding him. I'm not suggesting that it is impossible for Kareem to improve. What I am saying is that Jackson was atrocious in 2010 and it's not automatic that he will improve. There may be physical limitations that he cannot overcome. Wade Phillips himself has openly questioned Jackson's ability.

In summary, I do not feel it would be wise for the Texans to assume that Jackson will improve and become a competent player in 2011. By drafting CBs and (hopefully) bringing in a top free agent, I believe the organization agrees with that rationale. It's time for the Texans to discontinue the practice of handing young players jobs they have not earned. Kareem Jackson has yet to earn a job as a Houston Texan.

EllisUnit
07-22-2011, 09:30 PM
Don't be obtuse. I watched every play of the season, as well as many other NFL games. In my lifetime, I've watched over 1000 NFL games. I know what a good cornerback looks like. I know what a bad cornerback looks like. In the 2010 season, Kareem Jackson was a bad cornerback. Even for a rookie. The results back me up.

I'm not saying Jackson was well supported by the players or the coaches surrounding him. I'm not suggesting that it is impossible for Kareem to improve. What I am saying is that Jackson was atrocious in 2010 and it's not automatic that he will improve. There may be physical limitations that he cannot overcome. Wade Phillips himself has openly questioned Jackson's ability.

In summary, I do not feel it would be wise for the Texans to assume that Jackson will improve and become a competent player in 2011. By drafting CBs and (hopefully) bringing in a top free agent, I believe the organization agrees with that rationale. It's time for the Texans to discontinue the practice of handing young players jobs they have not earned. Kareem Jackson has yet to earn a job as a Houston Texan.

:hurrah: Nice post.

badboy
07-22-2011, 09:59 PM
I am much more concerned how KJ plays this year with a year under his belt & a better coach. If I am lucky he will be learning behind Asomugha & what 2nd year corner can not benefit from that?

76Texan
07-22-2011, 11:36 PM
Comment from Dan Dierdorf on the Walter play:
"He's expecting safety help".

Comment from Solomon Wilcott on the Floyd play:
"Namdi must be saying what happens to the help I wa expecting from the other side of the field?.... Misread and mistake in the secondary will cost you every single time."

76Texan
07-22-2011, 11:49 PM
.



Using a small sample size and then declaring that because the safety wasn't where he needed to be kj looked bad.

We don't Where the safety needed to be. And we don't know how the coaches had the secondary playing.



Well, if we don't know what the secondary was supposed to be playing then how can we blame KJax on these plays (the 2-receiver route)?

Should we just file it under questionable instead?

What I learn is the from either cover one or cover 3, the drop kick call was one of the ways to defend the pattern (safety staying back is the other).

I found the drop-kick call in Wade's playbook (when he was in Atlanta); it's not something that I made up.
We saw it in action in one of the example I gave.
The Yates' INT.

This thread isn't supposed to cover all the plays involving KJax;
its title is Jackson's plight.
It is meant to show certain plays KJax was being blamed for are at least questionable.

If I have time, I will get to all the important plays in each game.

76Texan
07-22-2011, 11:58 PM
In the 3 plays that involved the Texans (the two-man route), we should be able to determine that it was cover 3 because Quin did not follow the crossing route.

If there's no drop kick call then the safety simply has to stay back deep.

badboy
07-23-2011, 12:09 AM
In the 3 plays that involved the Texans (the two-man route), we should be able to determine that it was cover 3 because Quin did not follow the crossing route.

If there's no drop kick call then the safety simply has to stay back deep.76 I think what we hve on this thread is reality (your POV) & perception of reality (my view). I am not ready to give up my view for yours yet. Although what you are showing and saying does make sense. Reminds me of the threads about Chris Myer and Okoye. Kubiak defended Okoye last season and then phillips comes along and hints he has no place for the guy.

76Texan
07-23-2011, 12:16 AM
76 I think what we hve on this thread is reality (your POV) & perception of reality (my view). I am not ready to give up my view for yours yet. Although what you are showing and saying does make sense. Reminds me of the threads about Chris Myer and Okoye. Kubiak defended Okoye last season and then phillips comes along and hints he has no place for the guy.

All I'm asking for is an open mind.

BTW, here's the drop-kick call from the playbook.
It doesn't even involve the CB on play side (Jackson).
It simply states that when this call is made (automatically or as the safety calls out, we don't know), the safety comes down on the crossing route and the off-side CB (Quin) takes his place deep.

It clearly says CORNER in the POST.
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/2003Falconspdf-AdobeReader.jpg

badboy
07-23-2011, 12:20 AM
All I'm asking for is an open mind.

BTW, here's the drop-kick call from the playbook.
It doesn't even involve the CB on play side (Jackson).
It simply states that when this call is made (automatically or as the safety calls out, we don't know), the safety comes down on the crossing route and the off-side CB (Quin) takes his place deep.

It clearly says CORNER in the POST.
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/2003Falconspdf-AdobeReader.jpgSo if a player, corner or safety does not run the play correctly shouldn't head coach have player and DB coach heiney for some chewing?

badboy
07-23-2011, 12:26 AM
All I'm asking for is an open mind.

BTW, here's the drop-kick call from the playbook.
It doesn't even involve the CB on play side (Jackson).
It simply states that when this call is made (automatically or as the safety calls out, we don't know), the safety comes down on the crossing route and the off-side CB (Quin) takes his place deep.

It clearly says CORNER in the POST.
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/2003Falconspdf-AdobeReader.jpgLooking again at this play it shows a CB and FS covering two WRs. Maybe I am missing something as I am tired and my air conditioner quit working in my apartment, but where is the other corner and the SS? I want my CBs to stick with the WRs and FS and SS to back them up not replace them on a play.

76Texan
07-23-2011, 12:26 AM
So if a player, corner or safety does not run the play correctly shouldn't head coach have player and DB coach heiney for some chewing?

Remember the near INT by Quin?
It shows that the coaches did straighten them out.

Unfortunately as Quin was ready to make the INT, Nolan also came back and tip the ball and the eceiver caught it!

Got to work early tomorrow, see ya!

I will post those plays later!

badboy
07-23-2011, 12:28 AM
Remember the near INT by Quin?
It shows that the coaches did straighten them out.

Unfortunately as Quin was ready to make the INT, Nolan also came back and tip the ball and the eceiver caught it!

Got to work early tomorrow, see ya!

I will post those plays later!Thanks again for your efforts.

thunderkyss
07-23-2011, 01:50 AM
Maybe I am missing something as I am tired and my air conditioner quit working in my apartment, but where is the other corner and the SS? I want my CBs to stick with the WRs and FS and SS to back them up not replace them on a play.

I don't believe any team plays strict man coverage 100% of the time. You've got 11 defenders on the field, why not use them all. Especially if you consider the defense is at a disadvantage not knowing exactly what the offense is going to do on a given play, zone coverages make more sense.

This particular defense would be called when the offense is playing two tightends on a run down. They should run, it looks like they are going to run, you load the box.........

leebigeztx
07-23-2011, 02:54 AM
Schaub has been in the top 10 in completion % since he joined the Texans. If he has accuracy issues, who doesn't? And how can you get confirmation on a few plays out of nearly 600? Not that I'm challenging 76Texan to post screen shots of every play from 2010. Please don't. I'm just saying...


I'm not going to derail this thread, but if you think comp% determines an accurate passer, you need to watch the game different. Carr his last year was at about 70% or so, but that doesn't mean he's accurate. Accuracy is hittting guys in stride down the field. How many top 10 qbs would've made walters or aj stop and wait on the ball after beating the cb by 5 or 6 yds. This is the nfl and those are poorly thrown just in the clips. I watched shcaub leave tds on the field because of a non accurate throw. Had a top qb made those throws, 6 would be on the board.

The Pencil Neck
07-23-2011, 03:42 AM
I'm not going to derail this thread, but if you think comp% determines an accurate passer, you need to watch the game different. Carr his last year was at about 70% or so, but that doesn't mean he's accurate. Accuracy is hittting guys in stride down the field. How many top 10 qbs would've made walters or aj stop and wait on the ball after beating the cb by 5 or 6 yds. This is the nfl and those are poorly thrown just in the clips. I watched shcaub leave tds on the field because of a non accurate throw. Had a top qb made those throws, 6 would be on the board.

That's a part of accuracy.

Another part of accuracy is choosing the right guy to hit, and then getting the ball to him so that he doesn't get killed. Schaub is usually pretty good at getting the ball to the right guy and not hanging him out to dry.

76Texan
07-23-2011, 07:21 AM
Looking again at this play it shows a CB and FS covering two WRs. Maybe I am missing something as I am tired and my air conditioner quit working in my apartment, but where is the other corner and the SS? I want my CBs to stick with the WRs and FS and SS to back them up not replace them on a play.

That is why I said it doesn't even emphasize the on-side CB (Jackson).

If you look back at all the examples I gave concerning the 2-man route, the SS comes down to play the run.

The defense usually shows the QB quite clearly that they are in cover one/cover 3 type.

The 2-man route is designed to beat cover one, especially cover 3.
It is designed to "play" the FS.
The basic concept is that the offense floods the FS middle zone with 2 receivers: one high (the deep route) and one low (the crossing route).
If the FS stays up top to cover deep, the QB hits the crosser.
If the FS comes down, the QB goes long.

The drop-kick call was designed to combat this 2-man route.
It brings the FS down to take the crosser while the off-side CB goes into the deep middle to look to intercept the ball.
This is designed to bait the QB to make the deep throw.

The on-side CB was not shonw, becasue he simply plays his normal assignemnt in cover 3. He takes care of the usual 1/3. He watches for the outside receiver to cut to the corner or to the outside (back shoulder fade) or turn back on a stop/come backer route. He also serves to back up the FS on the crossing route.

DocBar
07-23-2011, 09:36 AM
I certainly don't mind it at all.
A good friend of mine of some 30 years still butt-head with me about KJax.
He's too busy to watch all of these evidence even though I am willing to sit down and go over all 16 games with him.
He said (like Rey said) that he didn't need to rewath anything, that he believe his own eyes.

I still see him pretty much every week.Hahaha. I've been pretty much on your side with this thread. I think the entire secondary had issues last season and I won't lay 6-10 at the feet of KJ. I'm hoping 2011 shows the big jump in performance for him that it usually does for players. Of course, with the lock out all that might go out the window, too.

The one thing with KJ that still bother me is the well documented problem of slipping/falling down and the damning comments Phillips made about him. I guess only time will tell how good of a player he ends up. He has 2 more years in my book before I label him a bust.

EllisUnit
07-23-2011, 09:52 AM
That wasn't the point. We aren't trying to compare the Texans pass defense with the Raiders or KJac with Aso.

What 76 is illustrating is that the receiver has the edge, always in one on one coverage. The corner has no idea when the ball is going to release, or where the receiver is trying to get to. The defensive scheme dictates how the corner is going to play a particular route on a particular down. Expecting safety help inside, you have to honor the outside route, where there is no help. When you do that, the receiver gets natural separation if they cut back inside. Which is ok, because there is supposed to be a safety there. If the safety isn't there, the easy (and wrong call) would be to blame the CB for being a talentless clueless P.O.S. even though he did exactly what he was supposed to.

We know it is exactly what he was supposed to do, because that is exactly what pro-bowl corners (& the Colts corner) did.

Unless you are saying each one of those corners in the exact same situation played that situation wrong. If that is your argument, all 76 is asking, is to tell him when & where you saw it done right. A picture or video would be nice... but no one is taking him up on that one.

Ummmm as many raider screen shots as i've seen i have to differ. Plus look 2 posts below the original one posted above.

Comment from Dan Dierdorf on the Walter play:
"He's expecting safety help".

Comment from Solomon Wilcott on the Floyd play:
"Namdi must be saying what happens to the help I wa expecting from the other side of the field?.... Misread and mistake in the secondary will cost you every single time."

Seems like a lot of comparing to me.

K. Jac and Aso are WORLDS apart. I consider K. Jac a minor league player compared to Aso. Cause thats how Jackson plays.

DocBar
07-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Taking this thread to it's logical conclusion, do you think signing Weddle would be a bigger payoff for the Texans than signing Aso? Of course signing both would be the ultimate payoff bt highly unlikely.
:spin:

The Pencil Neck
07-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Taking this thread to it's logical conclusion, do you think signing Weddle would be a bigger payoff for the Texans than signing Aso? Of course signing both would be the ultimate payoff bt highly unlikely.
:spin:

Personally, I'm more worried about who we sign for Safety than who we sign for Corner. That's the position that's going to make or break our secondary. We can't go into a season with:

<FA CB> - Quin - Keo/Nolan - KJ/Harris

That's just not going to work.

I'm starting to really like the idea of Goldson but I'd prefer Weddle.

If we could start the season something like:

Joseph - Quin - Manning/Landry - KJ/Harris

That would be epic.

thunderkyss
07-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Taking this thread to it's logical conclusion, do you think signing Weddle would be a bigger payoff for the Texans than signing Aso? Of course signing both would be the ultimate payoff bt highly unlikely.
:spin:

I think Wade will provide the biggest impact. If we start seeing LBs involved in pass defense, & I'm talking Urlacher covering the deep middle kind of involved, then we'll see our sack numbers go up & our INTs

My theory, in the past, QBs have had easy throws to make. They haven't been having to make tight throws, or difficult throws. They haven't had to wait for receivers to clear LBs, or receivers running into safeties. They haven't had to wait that fraction of a second, because all their lanes were open.

badboy
07-23-2011, 01:46 PM
I don't believe any team plays strict man coverage 100% of the time. You've got 11 defenders on the field, why not use them all. Especially if you consider the defense is at a disadvantage not knowing exactly what the offense is going to do on a given play, zone coverages make more sense.

This particular defense would be called when the offense is playing two tightends on a run down. They should run, it looks like they are going to run, you load the box.........If you are saying the circles I thought were receivers are actually TEs.. maybe. But nothing indicates that. If it is two WRs, I want corners on them; SS and LBs should cover TEs leaving a FS to back up the play.

badboy
07-23-2011, 01:52 PM
That is why I said it doesn't even emphasize the on-side CB (Jackson).

If you look back at all the examples I gave concerning the 2-man route, the SS comes down to play the run.

The defense usually shows the QB quite clearly that they are in cover one/cover 3 type.

The 2-man route is designed to beat cover one, especially cover 3.
It is designed to "play" the FS.
The basic concept is that the offense floods the FS middle zone with 2 receivers: one high (the deep route) and one low (the crossing route).
If the FS stays up top to cover deep, the QB hits the crosser.
If the FS comes down, the QB goes long.

The drop-kick call was designed to combat this 2-man route.
It brings the FS down to take the crosser while the off-side CB goes into the deep middle to look to intercept the ball.
This is designed to bait the QB to make the deep throw.

The on-side CB was not shonw, becasue he simply plays his normal assignemnt in cover 3. He takes care of the usual 1/3. He watches for the outside receiver to cut to the corner or to the outside (back shoulder fade) or turn back on a stop/come backer route. He also serves to back up the FS on the crossing route.And this is why we had problems as our CBs could not run with many WRs and had to have safety help but did not many times. If our CBs could run with WRs, the QB could not successfully choose where to throw regardless of the FS. If we have Aso and my draft pick Brandon Harris @ corners with Quin helping out Harris ALWAYS, then QB has to hope ASO slips or WR just beats him.

thunderkyss
07-23-2011, 03:17 PM
And this is why we had problems as our CBs could not run with many WRs and had to have safety help but did not many times. If our CBs could run with WRs, the QB could not successfully choose where to throw regardless of the FS. If we have Aso and my draft pick Brandon Harris @ corners with Quin helping out Harris ALWAYS, then QB has to hope ASO slips or WR just beats him.

but we just saw pictures of Walter running away for corners & Aso getting beat.... it's not about talent level, or ability to run with receivers.

badboy
07-23-2011, 03:25 PM
but we just saw pictures of Walter running away for corners & Aso getting beat.... it's not about talent level, or ability to run with receivers.Sure, what corner can not be beaten or what WR can not have a great play? Tongue in cheek or not you know you agree with me.:ahhaha:

DocBar
07-23-2011, 06:07 PM
I think Wade will provide the biggest impact. If we start seeing LBs involved in pass defense, & I'm talking Urlacher covering the deep middle kind of involved, then we'll see our sack numbers go up & our INTs

My theory, in the past, QBs have had easy throws to make. They haven't been having to make tight throws, or difficult throws. They haven't had to wait for receivers to clear LBs, or receivers running into safeties. They haven't had to wait that fraction of a second, because all their lanes were open. That would be great if we had any LB's that were good in coverage. I'm with you and a few others as far as being concerned with our LB corps. I don't count on Ryans coming back anywhere near 100% his pre-injury self or count on him for any extended length of time. So with whom and how is Wade going to improve that aspect of coverage? Do you think Sharpton will be that much improved in his sophomor season? He showed nice flashes last season.

76Texan
07-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Collingsworth's comments on Wade's coverage:
"One of the tough part about playing the Cowboys is that very seldom you have one-on-one coverage. It's like they switch coverages where it looks like you'd be running around on one guy and they release you to the next guy and they end up doubling somebody else so you never feel totally comfortable as a QB when you're throwing the ball because you don't know who's going be the guy who's guarding who."

This refers to disguise and pattern matching.
There would be a LB (whether OLB or ILB) guarding the hole or help double teaming a receiver or a TE. They try to take away the throw to the middle part of the field (mainly). That helps the CBs and safeties by lessening their burden on slants and crossing routes. (Not always, but definitely more help than the Texans LBs ever help out on these routes.)

ArlingtonTexan
07-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Sure, what corner can not be beaten or what WR can not have a great play? Tongue in cheek or not you know you agree with me.:ahhaha:

Yeah, difference between goodness and greatness in sprots is pretty narrow. A batter in baseball only needs 2 hits per week to go from .250 to .300. A Wr needs only 1.5 catches to go from boring 65 catch guy to 90 catch pro-bowler. It may take a lot for players to make those handful of plays over the next guy, but barring the silly extremes of awful and elite, figuring out how not to let Steve Smith pass interfere or not making that slight slip on a break is a two play difference in being pretty versus not good. It is that close.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 12:42 AM
In summary, I do not feel it would be wise for the Texans to assume that Jackson will improve and become a competent player in 2011. By drafting CBs and (hopefully) bringing in a top free agent, I believe the organization agrees with that rationale. It's time for the Texans to discontinue the practice of handing young players jobs they have not earned. Kareem Jackson has yet to earn a job as a Houston Texan.

FYI, this is what Kubiak said at the combine:

(on whats been said to cornerback Kareem Jackson this offseason) I think hes going to be a great player. I really do. We drafted him. We put him in a tough spot. As a player, we start him from day one. We know he went through some tough times. The whole back end went through some tough times. To be a great player in this league, I think you have to go through some of that. The thing that Im impressed with Kareem is through last year he never missed a day. Never missed a practice. Never missed a game. When youre able to withstand that type of stuff, youre able to go through tough times. The biggest bounce you usually make is from year one to two. Im expecting him to do that.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Kubiak-at-the-Combine/1ba0f7a9-b25b-48a7-b242-671c5554f1ae

76Texan
07-24-2011, 12:46 AM
If you are saying the circles I thought were receivers are actually TEs.. maybe. But nothing indicates that. If it is two WRs, I want corners on them; SS and LBs should cover TEs leaving a FS to back up the play.

The formation is a standard straight I, with one TE lining up outside the tackle.
The two outside circles are receivers.

It's not like you're asking the FS to run with a receiver; he only comes down to cut off the slant route.

There were a few plays last year that Bush actually had Pollard and Wilson run with the receiver.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 12:56 AM
And this is why we had problems as our CBs could not run with many WRs and had to have safety help but did not many times. If our CBs could run with WRs, the QB could not successfully choose where to throw regardless of the FS. If we have Aso and my draft pick Brandon Harris @ corners with Quin helping out Harris ALWAYS, then QB has to hope ASO slips or WR just beats him.

Allen can run with most receivers, but too often, he can't finish the play.
In a way, he's like JJ of the defense, dropping a few catches more than you would like to see.

I know you like Harris.
My opinion is that he's Jackson younger brother.

"Au contraire" to what you thought, I watched Aso about half a dozen times recently to study him. He's not in zero coverage at any time (The Texans were.) They rolled the safety over to help him just as much as the Texans did to Jackson. On the average, he received better safety help.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 01:08 AM
That would be great if we had any LB's that were good in coverage. I'm with you and a few others as far as being concerned with our LB corps. I don't count on Ryans coming back anywhere near 100% his pre-injury self or count on him for any extended length of time. So with whom and how is Wade going to improve that aspect of coverage? Do you think Sharpton will be that much improved in his sophomor season? He showed nice flashes last season.

I like Sharpton. I just rewatched a little of the Broncos game and it was said during the game that the Texans are really excited about him (I've heard that before.)

I know I've said this before, but we do have quite a few players who played the same coverage scheme as Wade's in college: Jackson, Harris, Carmichael, Keo, Demeco, Sharpton, Adibi.

I know I have some game tapes of Nolan somewhere, I can check that as well.
Don't think I have one of Quin though.

Safety or CB?
Well, if we only get one than I have to go with Aso.

I actually think that Jackson's make up is very good to be a safety.
If we get Aso and another vet, I wouldn't hesitate to move Jackson to safety.

Nolan may work out if he can raise his football IQ some (but then again, we've already tried Pollard.)
I still haven't given up on him though. We'll see if he can improve.

In the end, it's probably more realistic to hope for a vet CB not named Aso and a vet safety.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2011, 01:16 AM
In the end, it's probably more realistic to hope for a vet CB not named Aso and a vet safety.

I want a vet CB and a vet Safety.

If one of the vet's names is Asomugha, then all the better. I still want that safety, though.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 01:25 AM
I want a vet CB and a vet Safety.

If one of the vet's names is Asomugha, then all the better. I still want that safety, though.

Man, I hope that we won't be crushed once FA is completed!
I'm just afraid that they might not make any move on that front.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 01:48 AM
In the Chargers game, it cam be said that none of the 3 guys involved played it well.

Quin is at the top of he screen, Jacksona the bottom and Wilson at safety.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800733.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800784.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800829.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800843.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800854.jpg

76Texan
07-24-2011, 01:54 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800863.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800870.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800878.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800886.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800943.jpg

Here we see that Jackson is threatened with a possible backshoulder fade, or a corner route.

At this moment, Jackson can see that Wilson was still in good position to provide help inside.

We can also see that it was cover 3 because the crosser was distancing himself from Quin.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 02:02 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800916.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800902.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800950.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800950.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800965.jpg

Wilson committed himself way before Rivers threw the pass.
You can't do that in cover 3.
The rule of thumb is to break on the ball.
(Let's recall that on the pass to R. Williams, Wilson didn't react until way after the ball was thrown.)

Wilson can only break early if a drop kick call was made.
In that case, Quin took too much of a vertical break instead of heading straight toward the deep route.

From the shuffle, Jackson was forced to take a baseball turn and therefore could not squeeze the route more to the inside.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2011, 02:05 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800943.jpg

Here we see that Jackson is threatened with a possible backshoulder fade, or a corner route.

At this moment, Jackson can see that Wilson was still in good position to provide help inside.

We can also see that it was cover 3 because the crosser was distancing himself from Quin.

Is there a problem here with the spacing of the linebackers?

Should the MLB have gotten a little more depth on this? Or is this where he's supposed to be? That just seems like a huge hole there and the LB should be taking that passing lane away. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 02:08 AM
The baseball turn from the shuffle also left Jackson behind the receiver.

In this case, the shuffle technique hurt.
The miscommunication between the back 3 hurt more though.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800971.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800978.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800986.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800992.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800999.jpg

steelbtexan
07-24-2011, 02:22 AM
You're making it sound like KJ was almost on par with Aso. Except the Raiders had better S play. If this is true Huff should be valued like Reed and Polamalu in FA.

You've done a fine job using a few plays to illustrate your point with KJ. My eyes at the time told me a different story. I also remember the thread about D.Gibbs teaching the CB's a different technique than most other DB coaches. This contributed mightly to KJ's struggles. IMHO

I do appreciate all of the time you spend watching film. It's very informative.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 02:27 AM
Is there a problem here with the spacing of the linebackers?

Should the MLB have gotten a little more depth on this? Or is this where he's supposed to be? That just seems like a huge hole there and the LB should be taking that passing lane away. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

I have considered it and I agree with you.
But it's also a tough call for the MLB.
He did have to play the run, and then he had to look for the FB at the same time he made his drop.

The rule in zone coverage is to gain depth first, and that he didn't do.
He went horizontal a bit too much.
He could have helped Wilson from making the early jump, but only if he committed to getting depth first.

Basically, the Chargers PA run fake works just as ours normally did.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 02:30 AM
You're making it sound like KJ was almost on par with Aso. Except the Raiders had better S play. If this is true Huff should be valued like Reed and Polamalu in FA.

You've done a fine job using a few plays to illustrate your point with KJ. My eyes at the time told me a different story. I also remember the thread about D.Gibbs teaching the CB's a different technique than most other DB coaches. This contributed mightly to KJ's struggles. IMHO

I do appreciate all of the time you spend watching film. It's very informative.

I just mentioned that the shuffle technique hurt Jackson in this case.
(You will see that very often when I get to the games - I think I already did in those game analysis.)

Better safety play than what the Texans had last year isn't hard to find.

thunderkyss
07-24-2011, 03:06 AM
You're making it sound like KJ was almost on par with Aso. Except the Raiders had better S play. If this is true Huff should be valued like Reed and Polamalu in FA.

You've done a fine job using a few plays to illustrate your point with KJ.

What 76 has shown, is that KJ did what he was supposed to do in specific situations.

Aso, Revis, & a handful of other CBs do the things they are supposed to, & then some. They make things happen. We haven't seen that from KJac. He's still learning & if you've really watched him all year, you'll know he was much better at the end of the season..... but the game is still too fast for him. We'll see if it's slowed down any in a few weeks.

Ω

Rey
07-24-2011, 03:18 AM
I think you are making things too complicated. I disagree with your analysis of the play as well.

To me it looks like the lb didn't get deep enough and the safety had to come up and fill the void. He squeezes down on the crossing route and he let's Jackson "handle" the deep route.

Jackson just used poor technique and wasn't physically gifted enough to overcome it. He got roasted. Even if Eugene plays the deep route the middle crossing route is wide open because of the play fake and the lbs not busting his butt to get depth.

Rivers is a very good qb and be was going to find the open man.

Jackson still needs to be able to make a tackle or be in the vicinity to at least make a play on the receiver.

You are putting too much pressure on the safeties IMO. Their job is to help the corners when possible. Not completely bail them out. Otherwise, what exactly is the point of Kareem being out there?

The safeties were not good, but when you have lbs that struggle in coverage and corners that can't stay within tackling distance of their man it makes your job harder.

I said this before and I'll say it again. . .Bernard pollard had a very good year the year before Kareem arrived and Wilson was thought to be a decent stop gap until we got a better player there.

Kareem and the rest of the kiddy corners arrive and they are the worst coverage safeties ever? Not buying it.

I've seen dunta and reeves and other corners at least be around the receiver when the catch was made. I haven't seen a corner consistently so far away from his man when the ball was thrown since faggins.

The safety isn't always going to be right there over the top giving a helping hand. You have to man up and make a play sometimes. Kareem never did that.

If the safety didn't do enough to help Kareem he got burned. That's mostly what I'm getting from this thread.

If Kareem got burned it was someone elses fault. Coaches, safeties, wr cheated.

Well Kareem needs to man the heck up next season because every thing around him isnt always going to be perfect. It'd be nice if the first round pick could actually flash some playmaking ability or at least not look uncomfortable so much.

Even if you found one Kareem esque play from aso I guarantee that he manned up and made more plays when someone else messed up than Kareem did. I know that Deion has some plays where he looked bad, Kareem Jackson bad. But I guarantee be manned up and made some plays.

I didn't think Kareem would be great his rookie season, but I didn't expect him to be that bad.

I really can't take the analysis serious because you arent presenting plays that clearly show Kareem messing up. Every bad play he was a part of you are blaming it on someone else.

It would make for a better discussion if you presented both sides so that a good analysis could be made. Show the good, the bad and the ugly. Right not it just seems like you are trying to force feed this notion that Kareem was actually good. It was everyone else around him that let him down.

And I'm not saying this with any animosity or mean spiritedness. I just don't think that you are being very objective and you are looking for and clinging on to anything you can find to try and prove a point that most of us just aren't going to take seriously.

Kareem was awful last year. I think he has talent. But a majority of his woes were not due to outside forces. Well maybe the biggest factor was an outside force. He should have never been handed a starting job without earning it. He was not ready.

Hopefully this coming season he steps his game up.

The Pencil Neck
07-24-2011, 03:23 AM
You're making it sound like KJ was almost on par with Aso. Except the Raiders had better S play. If this is true Huff should be valued like Reed and Polamalu in FA.

You've done a fine job using a few plays to illustrate your point with KJ. My eyes at the time told me a different story. I also remember the thread about D.Gibbs teaching the CB's a different technique than most other DB coaches. This contributed mightly to KJ's struggles. IMHO

I do appreciate all of the time you spend watching film. It's very informative.

I think the main thing to take away is that KJ wasn't always as bad as he looked. That's not to say he was great or that he was anywhere near the level he needed to be. But the safeties and linebackers didn't do him any favors.

I've been meaning to ask 76Texan about the difference in footwork and if that caused KJ problems especially coming from a college that taught a technique.

But ultimately, our whole defense sucked. Top to bottom. And I don't think our players are that stupid or that untalented. Why is it that our players (for the past 5 years) have to have our defenses dumbed down for them and have to play everything vanilla and no one else's players seem to have that problem? That's got to be at least partially on the coaches.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:00 AM
I think you are making things too complicated. I disagree with your analysis of the play as well.

To me it looks like the lb didn't get deep enough and the safety had to come up and fill the void. He squeezes down on the crossing route and he let's Jackson "handle" the deep route.

Jackson just used poor technique and wasn't physically gifted enough to overcome it. He got roasted. Even if Eugene plays the deep route the middle crossing route is wide open because of the play fake and the lbs not busting his butt to get depth.

Rivers is a very good qb and be was going to find the open man.

Jackson still needs to be able to make a tackle or be in the vicinity to at least make a play on the receiver.

You are putting too much pressure on the safeties IMO. Their job is to help the corners when possible. Not completely bail them out. Otherwise, what exactly is the point of Kareem being out there?



I have put down all the situations you said (on this play).

I talked about the LB not getting depth, and about the shuffle techqniue.
I also said Jackson was unable to squeeze the route more to the inside.
I didn't let him off the hook.

I still maintain the two more important points however:

1. In cover 3, the safety cannot break before the ball is thrown unless he made a great read or the D had a drop-kick call on.
Otherwise, they would just have to bide their time ang give up the crossing route like the Chargers safety did, giving up a 17yd gain to JJ and a 33-yd gain to Casey.
Jammer was a #5 pick overall in 2003; why can't the Chargers let him alone to cover the deep route?

2. If there was a drop-kick call, Quin needed to head directly toward the play.

....

You are asking too much of Jackson in this instance even though you've seen how far Aso was from the play (he was even further away than Jackson.)

You've seen that Walter could have had a TD if the ball was thrown to a receiver on stride.

So why can't Aso man-up and make a tackle before the receiver crossed the goal line?
What was the use of him being out there?

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:11 AM
I've been meaning to ask 76Texan about the difference in footwork and if that caused KJ problems especially coming from a college that taught a technique.



I never did see Jackson play the shuffle at Alabama (even though Saban did use it on a very limited basis some years before.)

They didn't play zone there either.
When people talk about zone at Alabama, it was the pattern matching concept.
It's a zone that turns into man very quickly.
It's more like switch-man defense in basketball with weak side help, something like that.

I know that all the SEC fields were grass.
I imagine he needs some time to get use to playing on other surfaces, wearing different type of shoes.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:22 AM
If the safety didn't do enough to help Kareem he got burned. That's mostly what I'm getting from this thread.

If Kareem got burned it was someone elses fault. Coaches, safeties, wr cheated.


I really can't take the analysis serious because you arent presenting plays that clearly show Kareem messing up. Every bad play he was a part of you are blaming it on someone else.

It would make for a better discussion if you presented both sides so that a good analysis could be made. Show the good, the bad and the ugly. Right not it just seems like you are trying to force feed this notion that Kareem was actually good. It was everyone else around him that let him down.

You keep missing the main point.
That is why the title of the thread is "Jackson's plight".
It is meant to show those plays where he was really not terrible (though certainly nowhere near great) but was made out to be terrible.

You cannot condemn a player when he was doing what he was told by his coaches.
Can he do some thing better? Certainly!

I fail to see how by showing these plays that I can force feed the notion that Jackson was good.
He didn't do anything spectacular in those plays.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:51 AM
You are putting too much pressure on the safeties IMO. Their job is to help the corners when possible. Not completely bail them out. Otherwise, what exactly is the point of Kareem being out there?

The safeties were not good, but when you have lbs that struggle in coverage and corners that can't stay within tackling distance of their man it makes your job harder.




I also presented the safeties in these plays as they were.
I look at what their job assignments were and whether they were able to fullfill them.

On the R. Williams play, for example.
It was a one-receiver route with Wilson lining up on that side.
If a safety cannot provide any form of help in that instance, thre's no other conclusion that can be drawn other than he failed utterly at his job.

On the Jabar Gafney 50yd catch (which was actually on a different thread), the Texans were in cover 2 (5-underneath zone, not man).
There was only one receiver on that side and he (Gaffney) ran a skinny post right toward Nolan's landmark.
Nolan bit on the run fake and vacated his zone.

Jackson stretched his zone more than 30 yards and ran after the receiver.
But in an underneath zone, you can ask the CB to stretch only so much.
(I can show you a Dunta play I happen to found to show you how much further away from the receiver Dunta was.)

The mistake was unequivocally Nolan's.
It had nothing to do with Jackson's speed.

In a 5 underneath - 2 deep zone, the CB seeks his landmark, looks for the QB, and reacts.

It's not Jackson's fault that Nolan failed to keep his assignment.
But because Jackson ran after the receiver that he was blamed for the play.
(If only you remember who posted a link to that video in the first place, you would know that he's one of the harshest critics of Jackson, and he was completely bias there.)

76Texan
07-24-2011, 12:15 PM
Here's Jackson in cover 2 on the Gaffney catch:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226405.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226427.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226549.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226612.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226869.jpg

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/

76Texan
07-24-2011, 12:21 PM
Here's Dunta in cover 2 vs the Titans in 09.

Which guy played the coverage better (stretching their underneath zone)?
Dunta or Jackson?

Which safety played the coverage better?
Wilson on Justin Gage or Nolan on Gaffney?

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717807.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717975.jpg

The guy stood looking near the yard marker was Dunta. He was only 9 yards from the LOS.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/

steelbtexan
07-24-2011, 12:34 PM
I never did see Jackson play the shuffle at Alabama (even though Saban did use it on a very limited basis some years before.)

They didn't play zone there either.
When people talk about zone at Alabama, it was the pattern matching concept.
It's a zone that turns into man very quickly.
It's more like switch-man defense in basketball with weak side help, something like that.

I know that all the SEC fields were grass.
I imagine he needs some time to get use to playing on other surfaces, wearing different type of shoes.

He fell down plenty on the grass field in Reliant.

Hopefully he continues to make the improvements that were starting to show at the end of last yr.

Lucky
07-24-2011, 12:57 PM
Here's Jackson in cover 2 on the Gaffney catch:

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/
You can't tell squat from those screen captures. But, you can watch the actual video here (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass?r_src=ramp) and see that Jackson never bumped Jabar, turned and ran with him the entire play, and was smoked by the speed challenged Gaffney.

And that was exactly the lack of field speed that Wade Phillips is concerned with. That's not coaching. That's not technique. That's just getting outrun by a possession receiver.

playa465
07-24-2011, 04:23 PM
Who is Kareem Jackson? :foottap:

badboy
07-24-2011, 06:50 PM
Allen can run with most receivers, but too often, he can't finish the play.
In a way, he's like JJ of the defense, dropping a few catches more than you would like to see.

I know you like Harris.
My opinion is that he's Jackson younger brother."Au contraire" to what you thought, I watched Aso about half a dozen times recently to study him. He's not in zero coverage at any time (The Texans were.) They rolled the safety over to help him just as much as the Texans did to Jackson. On the average, he received better safety help. WIll you explain this? Two different types of corners.

i am not saying a safety will never help out Aso but it is well known that Asomugha can take care of one side of field by himself. Yes, he will make some bad plays any any player will but most plays you can roll both safeties away from his side offering more strength to Harris.

badboy
07-24-2011, 07:00 PM
In the Chargers game, it cam be said that none of the 3 guys involved played it well.

Quin is at the top of he screen, Jacksona the bottom and Wilson at safety.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800733.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800784.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800829.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800843.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Chargers/55yd%20TD%20pass%20to%20Arijotutu/Front%20view/vlcsnap-1800854.jpgNote that in last two frames QB appears to have committed to runnoing or throwing towards Jackson's side and FS Wilson's back remains toward that area of field where WR will take KJ.

EllisUnit
07-24-2011, 07:04 PM
You can't tell squat from those screen captures. But, you can watch the actual video here (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass?r_src=ramp) and see that Jackson never bumped Jabar, turned and ran with him the entire play, and was smoked by the speed challenged Gaffney.

And that was exactly the lack of field speed that Wade Phillips is concerned with. That's not coaching. That's not technique. That's just getting outrun by a possession receiver.

Ok well heres what happened, "Screen shot" that was illegal by the WR, "Screen Shot" The safety made Jackson look bad. "Screen Shot" Aso would have even gotten beat there. "Screen Shot" See how everything is always so unfair when its jackson "Screen Shot" Allens INT was a fluke he had terrible coverage "Screen Shot" He fell due to a flaw in The grass, the gardener ambushed K. Jac. Summary Cant you see how good K. Jac is and how unfairly he's being judged. ;)

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:48 PM
You can't tell squat from those screen captures. But, you can watch the actual video here (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass?r_src=ramp) and see that Jackson never bumped Jabar, turned and ran with him the entire play, and was smoked by the speed challenged Gaffney.

And that was exactly the lack of field speed that Wade Phillips is concerned with. That's not coaching. That's not technique. That's just getting outrun by a possession receiver.

Did you watch the video with sound off?

Must be, 'casue you certainly missed what the announcer was saying:
"Troy Nolan beaten on the play."

Also, there's no specific rule in cover two that the CB has to bump the receiver.
Quin certainly didn't bump the receiver.
And by the way, Jackson lined up at least 7 yards away from the LOS, any kind of bump will be a penalty.

Another note for you: In cover 2, the safety can never be found closer to the LOS than the CB.

Yet another note for you, based on your definition, Dunta was a turtle; he was a mile away from the receiver.