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Rey
10-24-2011, 04:43 PM
I notice a lot of times, he's not exactly getting beat badly. It's just that he has almost no awareness of where the ball is at. Too often he is not able to disrupt the pass because he is too focused on the receiver.

It takes everything he can muster just to stay within 3 yards of the receiver most times. Hard to play the ball when you are just trying to keep up.

TxnsFootball
10-24-2011, 08:34 PM
Haven't liked this guy since last year. Still don't like him now. Am I wrong or is there something I'm not seeing??

Wolf
10-24-2011, 08:36 PM
probably everything that you would need to know all rolled into one nice compact package
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114

BTW welcome to the board

TexansFanatic
10-24-2011, 08:37 PM
Thought provoking first post there, noob!

thetexanator
10-24-2011, 08:38 PM
welcome to the pack newby. opposing qb's luuuuuuuv kj.

TxnsFootball
10-24-2011, 08:43 PM
Too critical too soon? Haha Sorry. Been coming to the forum for a while now just never really had anything to say until now. I just needed to get that off my chest.

EllisUnit
10-24-2011, 08:49 PM
Too critical too soon? Haha Sorry. Been coming to the forum for a while now just never really had anything to say until now. I just needed to get that off my chest.

i am KJs biggest advocate so if you want to here any negative stuff about KJ just ask :)

TexansFanatic
10-24-2011, 08:54 PM
Too critical too soon? Haha Sorry. Been coming to the forum for a while now just never really had anything to say until now. I just needed to get that off my chest.

Don't let anyone bully you into not saying your piece. ;-))

HOU-TEX
10-25-2011, 10:37 AM
i am KJs biggest advocate so if you want to here any negative stuff about KJ just ask :)

:thinking:

Huh?

76Texan
10-25-2011, 10:55 AM
It takes everything he can muster just to stay within 3 yards of the receiver most times. Hard to play the ball when you are just trying to keep up.

Prove it, Rey!

Sorry, but I called that Bull!

BTW, if you noticed the way Allen tried to recover against Britt, you know he got beat by a mile.

Same thing with D. Williams.

A decent throw (one that doesn't land on the receiver shoulder) and that would have been a catch.

At least now I know that you don't try to defend Allen anymore (I take it you mean not just on this particular play.)

I've been trying to watch CB play overall in the NFL, and I can tell you that Jackson currently is playing better than a lot of them. I don't want to jump to a conclusion yet, but the one thing I know for sure is KJ is playing better than both CBs on the Cardinals (P.Peterson and AJ Jefferson).

Kthx
10-25-2011, 11:00 AM
You say that 76 but don't really offer much in the way of proof either. I have watched every game this season so far and have seen both KJ and Allen getting burned constantly. It would be one thing if I was the only one noticing buy apparently the other coach/QB notices it also as it seems like they constantly notice a soft spot in our secondary and sodomize us for ten yards over and over again while asking KJ to squeal like a pig boy. If anything our pass rush is making him look better statistically than he is actually playing.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:29 AM
It would be one thing if I was the only one noticing buy apparently the other coach/QB notices it also as it seems like they constantly notice a soft spot in our secondary and sodomize us for ten yards over and over again while asking KJ to squeal like a pig boy.

76 has provided way more proof than anyone questioning his evaluations. What proof do you have of opposing QBs "sodomizing us" "while asking Kj to squeal like a pig boy"?

That has happened once, vs New Oreans & he hasn't been successfully picked on since.

Flacco didn't throw on him any more or completed any more passes on him than any of the other corners.

Hasselbeck threw on him 3 times during the game (if I remember right) none were completed.

If anything our pass rush is making him look better statistically than he is actually playing.

Most likely, but that's part of the point.

Rey
10-25-2011, 11:30 AM
Prove it, Rey!

Sorry, but I called that Bull!

I've never defended Allen.

I've simply maintained that I thought he was a better option to have on the field than Kjax in certain situations. Overall, he makes more plays than Kjax does.

If you want proof just watch the games.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 11:31 AM
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!

Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.

At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).

On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.

Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:32 AM
I've never defended Allen.

I've simply maintained that I thought he was a better option to have on the field than Kjax in certain situations. Overall, he makes more plays than Kjax does.

If you want proof just watch the games.

I've defended Kjax. I've maintained that I thought he was a better option to have on the field than Allen in certain situations, especially with bigger more physical receivers, or when you need a tackle.

If you want proof, just watch the games.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:38 AM
I've defended Kjax. I've maintained that I thought he was a better option to have on the field than Allen in certain situations, especially with bigger more physical receivers, or when you need a tackle.

If you want proof, just watch the games.

I saw one run play to KJ's side, Kj got his hands on CJ2ypc and held him up at the LOS, play over, forward progress stopped. No gain.

Similar play, Allen dives at CJs feet, completely misses CJ picks up 4 of his 18 yards, thank God we've got safeties & LBs on this team.

There was another, Allen got beat on a crossing route (there was a bit of a pick from the slot receiver) Allen trailing way behind, dives and gets nothing but air.

That play to 17 where Allen was beat, the ball went through the receivers hands, hit his helmet then bounced off before Allen wraped his arms up. He should have caught that ball & Allen had nothing to do with him not.

The worst play I saw from KJ, he let a receiver get behind him, run an out & the ball receiver couldn't stay in bounds. I don't know if KJ was in zone on that play, there was a safety coming down on the receiver. Jason Allen was on the sideline telling Kj he did a good job..... kudos to Allen.

Kj got beat on that deep route, got the PI call, I thought their feet got tangled & he was falling down.

On the next play, he stays on top of his man a little better & uses his body to crowd the receiver to the line. Not great, but good job.

Rey
10-25-2011, 11:40 AM
76 has provided way more proof than anyone questioning his evaluations. What proof do you have of opposing QBs "sodomizing us" "while asking Kj to squeal like a pig boy"?

That has happened once, vs New Oreans & he hasn't been successfully picked on since.

Flacco didn't throw on him any more or completed any more passes on him than any of the other corners.

Hasselbeck threw on him 3 times during the game (if I remember right) none were completed.


Most likely, but that's part of the point.


Kj was out for a couple games so lets not act like he's been holding it down every since NO.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:43 AM
I saw one run play to KJ's side, Kj got his hands on CJ2ypc and held him up at the LOS, play over, forward progress stopped. No gain.

Similar play, Allen dives at CJs feet, completely misses CJ picks up 4 of his 18 yards, thank God we've got safeties & LBs on this team.

There was another, Allen got beat on a crossing route (there was a bit of a pick from the slot receiver) Allen trailing way behind, dives and gets nothing but air.


Versus the Jags, with their receivers & MJD, I doubt we see Allen as much as we saw him against the Ravens.

We need physical bodies, we need tacklers.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Kj was out for a couple games so lets not act like he's been holding it down every since NO.

I'm not the one saying he has been "sodomized" again & again. My response was not to make it sound like he's been shut-down, but to illicit examples of the sodomization.

Rey
10-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!

Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.

At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).

On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.

Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?

See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.

silvrhand
10-25-2011, 11:54 AM
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.

I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.

fiasco west
10-25-2011, 11:58 AM
76 has provided way more proof than anyone questioning his evaluations. What proof do you have of opposing QBs "sodomizing us" "while asking Kj to squeal like a pig boy"?

That has happened once, vs New Oreans & he hasn't been successfully picked on since.

Flacco didn't throw on him any more or completed any more passes on him than any of the other corners.

Hasselbeck threw on him 3 times during the game (if I remember right) none were completed.


Most likely, but that's part of the point.

He's improved. But everyone is so focused on him sucking that every mistake he makes or every time he gets beat everyone piles onto it. Meanwhile he has very quiet games.

I still think he should be starting over Allen because of this noted improvement. He's much more physical, he's a much better tackler, and his coverage has improved and he is younger.

infantrycak
10-25-2011, 11:59 AM
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.

In order to decide a player is a plus or minus you have to define a zero point and a frame of reference. Not sure how that can be argued. That isn't to jump into y'all's overall debate.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 12:00 PM
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.

I agree with this.

I understand pointing to other rookie CBs to frame the comparison.... seems like some people expect Kj to be Nnamdi Asomugha straight out the box & that was never going to happen.

But i think 76Texan goes a little too far & berates those other players, which is as unfair to them as it is to Kj

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 12:02 PM
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.

I think it's going to take a while to see what Kj is going to be. But it's evident that he will get better. He's been playing well for a 2nd year corner & anyone who can't see that...... anyone who thinks it makes more sense to play Allen is jaded.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 12:09 PM
He's improved. But everyone is so focused on him sucking that every mistake he makes or every time he gets beat everyone piles onto it. Meanwhile he has very quiet games.

I still think he should be starting over Allen because of this noted improvement. He's much more physical, he's a much better tackler, and his coverage has improved and he is younger.

Well said.

steelbtexan
10-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks! http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!

Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.

At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).

On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.

Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?

Yes I did,

The coverage thing doesn't bother me that bad. It's a learning on the job thing. PP may end up playing better at S. That's why the tackling thing bothers me so much. It's just taking the easy way out. He was a great tackler at LSU. He's got the Size/speed so he must just be lost at this point.

Hopefully he improves, it would be ashamed to see all of that talent go to waste.

BTW, did Marshall let Wallace go and he was supposed to have S help over the top. Or did Marshall just screw up on the long TD pass? IYO

Have you gotten the chance to check out Xavier Rhodes of Fla. St.? If so what do you think of him. We're dicussing him in the rm/BL/BB mock draft thread. I would love your input.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 12:17 PM
Thank you to all who understands my point(s).

Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).

That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?

Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!

Rey
10-25-2011, 12:24 PM
In order to decide a player is a plus or minus you have to define a zero point and a frame of reference. Not sure how that can be argued. That isn't to jump into y'all's overall debate.

I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.

Rey
10-25-2011, 12:26 PM
Thank you to all who understands my point(s).

Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).

That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?

Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!

No, I wasn't a McCourty guy. I was a Dez Bryant guy.

But I was not upset with the KJ pick at all. I thought he had a chance to be a good player.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Yes I did,

The coverage thing doesn't bother me that bad. It's a learning on the job thing. PP may end up playing better at S. That's why the tackling thing bothers me so much. It's just taking the easy way out. He was a great tackler at LSU. He's got the Size/speed so he must just be lost at this point.

Hopefully he improves, it would be ashamed to see all of that talent go to waste.

BTW, did Marshall let Wallace go and he was supposed to have S help over the top. Or did Marshall just screw up on the long TD pass? IYO

Have you gotten the chance to check out Xavier Rhodes of Fla. St.? If so what do you think of him. We're dicussing him in the rm/BL/BB mock draft thread. I would love your input.

Hey, now you can see how steep a learning curve can be when a rookie CB is put out there in the same position as a veteran CB.

And I mean, the Cards safeties didn't fail Peterson anywhere as much as the Texans' failed Jackson.


On the play that you mentioned, IMO, the safety played too far away from action.
The two deepest receivers were on Marshall's side (acutally all the routes were).
The safety should have shifted to his left sooner; he would have been in position to help Marshall. (He was really close, but no cigar!)

Rey
10-25-2011, 12:32 PM
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

KJ will improve. He has improved.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not he gives us a shot to be the better team on a game to game, season to season, play to play basis.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 12:33 PM
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.

The zero point is "rookie CBs drafted in the first round".

(I had discussed some about Joe Haden just after the season; how he was started out slowly by the Browns; ie., nickel, sending him in on blitzes, playing him in under coverage to get his feet wet before working in the more difficult tasks.)

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 12:37 PM
No, I wasn't a McCourty guy. I was a Dez Bryant guy.

But I was not upset with the KJ pick at all. I thought he had a chance to be a good player.

D'oh...... I'd definitely take Dez Bryant + Jason Allen + Brandon Harris in lieu of what we've got today.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 12:46 PM
KJ will improve. He has improved.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not he gives us a shot to be the better team on a game to game, season to season, play to play basis.

If this were Kj's rookie season I agree. I wouldn't have a problem moving him to nickel today, if we had a better corner on the team.

I do not believe Allen is that corner. Compared to Kj, yes, he's probably going to "make more play" as far as INTs go.

But tackles, passes defensed, run supporting defense, all the other plays that a corner has to make in an NFL game, Kj is so far ahead of Allen it's ridiculous for a 7th year vet.

Allen uses his speed better. Allen stays on top better. But that's it. I haven't seen either of them break on a ball & jump a route. I've only seen once that Allen hit a guy to prevent a catch. I've only seen Allen come up & get a tackle on run support once.

JMO

b0ng
10-25-2011, 12:47 PM
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.

I think after 20+ games of him playing it's pretty obvious that he has glaring flaws in his game that cannot be coached up. Whether Jason Allen is a better option or not is practically irrelevant as both need to not be our CB2 moving forward.

infantrycak
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.

I am not talking about going around to look at players who are playing like crap. I am talking about looking at what the middle of the league #2 CB plays like and using that as a reference point for plus vs. minus. There has to be a standard. You can't set the standard at Deion Sanders for the top 4 CB's. It isn't going to happen. You are lucky to get one. It would be great to have two JoJo's starting but it isn't realistic and you don't (shouldn't) judge your #2 against #1's although you always look to upgrade.

foo82
10-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Random point, since we are speaking of tackling, no one mentioned that tackling seemed much much better this year in comparison with last year. I remember Texans missing tackles left and right. Our LBs are not whiffing them, and our dbs seem much better at wrapping up (except for Allen who often takes bad angles).

Rey
10-25-2011, 01:50 PM
I am not talking about going around to look at players who are playing like crap. I am talking about looking at what the middle of the league #2 CB plays like and using that as a reference point for plus vs. minus. There has to be a standard. You can't set the standard at Deion Sanders for the top 4 CB's. It isn't going to happen. You are lucky to get one. It would be great to have two JoJo's starting but it isn't realistic and you don't (shouldn't) judge your #2 against #1's although you always look to upgrade.


Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 01:55 PM
Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.

You refuse to see the point while others get it.

Now if nobody sees my point, it would have been something else!

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 02:20 PM
Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.

Infantrycak is talking about comparing our #2 to other #2s....

I think 76Texans has always been more focused on our First round CB compared to other 1st round CBs & using guys like Kyle Wilson & McCourtey makes too much sense, since we passed on them to get "the most NFL ready" of the bunch.

Hayden was taken much higher, Petterson was also regarded a much higher prospect. He contrast Kj to those guys to say, "This is what you get with a rookie CB, regardless how good a prospect he is" just to demonstrate how difficult the position is to learn.

He's taken screen shots of veterans playing similar defensive schemes to demonstrate KJ doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing, and others showing him actually doing it better than some of the vets...

It's not so much that 76 is tearing apart other players game, but contrasting what they do to what KJ does for comparison purposes.

But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Thank you, TK!

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-25-2011, 03:27 PM
One of the drives you mention Allen being a part of, Barwin was called for offsides on 3rd and 3 which prevented a 3 and out. The very next play the Titans motioned CJ out wide where he had a 1 on 1 matchup against Sharpton. Are you really going to penalize Jason Allen for that.

Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.

On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.

I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 03:50 PM
On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose.


When I saw that play, I immediately thought of this defense


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Yates%20vs%20VTech/INT%201/Dropkik_VT.gif

76Texan
10-25-2011, 04:19 PM
1. One of the drives you mention Allen being a part of, Barwin was called for offsides on 3rd and 3 which prevented a 3 and out. The very next play the Titans motioned CJ out wide where he had a 1 on 1 matchup against Sharpton. Are you really going to penalize Jason Allen for that.

2. Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.

3. On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.

I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.

1. I'm counting drives and plays, basically to show that KJ was not an easy target such that Hasselbeck and the Titans coaches had in mind to come back to (deep) time and again; not what some posters think.

2. No, I didn't leave out the PI call. Reread my posts.
Even though I feel that it was an iffy call.
I don't think a receiver cut back across a DB's face should get a PI call; if anything, it's probably should have been incidental contact.
If KJ had turned his head to the inside (he doesn't even have to look all the way back at the QB), I think the call could have easily gone the other way around.
A PI is when the CB impedes the receiver natural direction in the route.
Heck, if every time a CB trails and the receiver just has to stop or turn toward the receiver while slowing down so that the DB runs into him to get a PI call; they would have done it all day long!

3. What TK said, a variety of sort.
The Walter's 20 yard catch on a slant route in the other thread is another variety.
In that play, the Tacks decided to keep the safety back and gave up the slant to Walter.
Was Courtland Finnegan any closer to Walter than KJ was to his receiver?
No, he was further away.
In cover one or cover three, the RCB (Finnegan and KJ) needs to be concerned about the swirl route, where the crosser ran toward the middle but then cut back to the side line. (I've seen those, I think AJ had one of those as well.)
If the deep safety comes down to take the crosser, then the RCB took over in the post (this should be done early in the pattern.)

The way the Texans played it here is also a good way.
Joseph releases his man to the deep safety and cut off the crosser.

We had Jackson in Joseph's position in another game (Ravens, I think) where he played LCB and released his man to cut off the crosser.

Rey
10-25-2011, 04:56 PM
But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.

Child Please.

Go back and read what I've said about KJ and other corners.

I know exactly what 76 is "trying to do" and I am not buying it.

All corners make mistakes. All corners get beat. Most rookie corners thrown into the fire have ugly moments.

But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.

Now you can put all the stock you want to into playing the run well and making tackles, but Dunta did the same exact thing. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a corner who could cover very well but couldn't tackle rather than vice versa.

Now, I don't like to judge players without taking their environment into consideration (pass rush, overall defensive success, key players around them), but despite whatever mistakes McCourty or Joe Haden made, they made plays.

Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.

Which brings me back to my original point: when all you do is point out screw ups by other players and explain away bad plays by "your guy" it makes your analysis less credible IMO. You are not presenting the full spectrum of what is going on.

And that is JMO on the subject.

badboy
10-25-2011, 04:57 PM
if you don't know what you are looking at, Kareem Jackson's play is fine.That is what ugly women pray for.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 05:24 PM
But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.



Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.


Rookie season:

In six games Peterson had an INT on a hail mary pass at the end of the half where the QB threw into a crowd of 3 defenders.
One guy batted the ball away into the hand of the fourth defender (Peterson) who wasn't on anybody.

In six games, Peterson had 3 PDs.

In six games, KJ had an INT that was definitely more legitimate than Peterson can only dream off.

In six games, KJ had 5 PDs.

And what does a return have anything to do with playing CB and coverage?

Rey
10-25-2011, 05:28 PM
Also, I have not been one constantly saying Kareem sucks. In fact I've said several times that his play has been better than last year.

But that said, I think we can do better at CB#2 in the future. I also think that it's a good things that Allen has been eating into some of his playing time. They both have their warts but lthey both do different things well.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 05:29 PM
Asomugha had ZERO Int in his rookie campaign.

In fact, he didn't have an INT until his 50th game in the league!

Rey
10-25-2011, 05:36 PM
Rookie season:

In six games Peterson had an INT on a hail mary pass at the end of the half where the QB threw into a crowd of 3 defenders.
One guy batted the ball away into the hand of the fourth defender (Peterson) who wasn't on anybody.

In six games, Peterson had 3 PDs.

In six games, KJ had an INT that was definitely more legitimate than Peterson can only dream off.

In six games, KJ had 5 PDs.

76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest. But I see you conviently did not mention the other two corners in my post.

And what does a return have anything to do with playing CB and coverage?

Nothing. Did I say it did?

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 05:39 PM
76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest. But I see you conviently did not mention the other two corners in my post.



Nothing. Did I say it did?

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

So what's wrong with the point that Jackson is a much better tackler than Peterson?

You don't think a miss-tackle can lead to a TD or a long gain?
Well, guess what, Peterson's poor tackling had led to 2 TDs for the opponents.

No, I don't intend to leave out the other two corners; I had already talked about them.
They WERE NOT THROWN INTO THE FIRE. McCourty especially!

76Texan
10-25-2011, 05:45 PM
76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest.

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

I would trade down to pick Jackson and another player.

Or use the additional pick to trade back up to get a better pick at #2

If I like big corner who can also run (but not as fast as Peterson) I would trade down to take Jimmy Smith (he's currently injured) and another pick in similar fashion.

The point is in the last draft there wasn't a CB that I would rather have.
No, I still say I don't take McCourty over Jackson.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 05:47 PM
Child Please.

Did you just go Ocho on me?
:foottap:

Go back and read what I've said about KJ and other corners.

I know exactly what 76 is "trying to do" and I am not buying it.

All corners make mistakes. All corners get beat. Most rookie corners thrown into the fire have ugly moments.

But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.

Now you can put all the stock you want to into playing the run well and making tackles, but Dunta did the same exact thing. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a corner who could cover very well but couldn't tackle rather than vice versa.

I agree with what you're saying. If we had a corner that can cover & make big time plays... I'd agree with you. Allen is not that guy. If I've got to chose between two guys that can't cover, one can tackle & the other can get an occasional INT, I'm going with the guy who can tackle.

Besides, I started watching guys like Kj & Mario because some weren't happy with their production as rookies & I wanted to know if these guys had what it takes to live up to their draft status.

Without question, I don't care who we had as corners last year, with the pass rush, safeties, & schemes we used, Nnamdi, Revis, & McCourty would look like Kj, Quin, & McCain.

So imo, when I look at Kj, no doubt in my mind he can play at the NFL level. Will he ever be a top 10 corner? Probably not. But he can play as a #2, no doubt in my mind. I believe I understand exactly why Wade is playing him so much. I think he is the future at #2 CB.

What I don't understand is why is Wade playing Allen at all? Wade wasn't part of last years debacle, he could bring Brandon Harris in to play that same role Allen is playing & he'd probably do as well. Then at least I (as a fan) would think he's got the best interest of the team... looking for that #2 CB, on his mind.


Now, I don't like to judge players without taking their environment into consideration (pass rush, overall defensive success, key players around them), but despite whatever mistakes McCourty or Joe Haden made, they made plays.

& they had the benefit of a much better defense than what Kj had.... remember, we were making history.


Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

That's not the point, we never had the opportunity to take Petterson. Petterson is much more athletically gifted. At the same time, he's having the same struggles Kj has.. & that is the point.

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

It gets difficult keeping individual posters straight when discussing something like this. If it wasn't you, there are plenty on this board expecting Kj to play like a 7 year vet..... but they don't expect Allen to. Strange if you ask me.

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.

I get it. Your reasons for wanting to start Allen make perfect sense. If Allen was getting more playing time I would assume that would be the reason. I just don't agree with your assessment of Allen.

Which brings me back to my original point: when all you do is point out screw ups by other players and explain away bad plays by "your guy" it makes your analysis less credible IMO. You are not presenting the full spectrum of what is going on.

And that is JMO on the subject.

But that's not all he's done.

He started talking about Kareem only. Then all these other names got brought into it. He showed examples of those guys... it's a very thorough thread.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-25-2011, 06:04 PM
Asomugha had ZERO Int in his rookie campaign.

In fact, he didn't have an INT until his 50th game in the league!



Nnamdi was a safety in college making the position change to corner. He rarely played his first 2 seasons. His second season starting he had 8 INTs and from then on teams avoided throwing his way.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 06:15 PM
Nhamdi was a safety in college making the position change to corner. He rarely played his first 2 seasons. His second season starting he had 8 INTs and from then on teams avoided throwing his way.

Thanks for the clarification about the conversion.

He still played in 15 games his first year and started one at CB.

He played in all 16 games in his second year and started seven.

He started all 16 games in his third year (2005).

In 06, he registered his first INT in the second game (49th game, not 50th).

Some journalist posted videos of his INTs in 2006; I had mentioned that before in a thread. There was either safety help or he was playing underneath coverage on all the INTs that were shown.

When I study the Raiders lat year, they were in cover 2 a lot.
Asomugha + safety = not somewhere a QB wants to go.

That he was a shut down CB that can cover half of the field by himself is a myth.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-25-2011, 06:25 PM
2. No, I didn't leave out the PI call. Reread my posts.
Even though I feel that it was an iffy call.
I don't think a receiver cut back across a DB's face should get a PI call; if anything, it's probably should have been incidental contact.
If KJ had turned his head to the inside (he doesn't even have to look all the way back at the QB), I think the call could have easily gone the other way around.
A PI is when the CB impedes the receiver natural direction in the route.
Heck, if every time a CB trails and the receiver just has to stop or turn toward the receiver while slowing down so that the DB runs into him to get a PI call; they would have done it all day long!


KJ was on the receivers right shoulder. He then stumbles, reaches out and grabs the receiver and ends up on the receivers left shoulder. Donnie Avery didn't stop or turn anywhere.

coon
10-25-2011, 06:31 PM
This issue is getting beaten to death. Personally i see it somewhere in between. Anyone who gets thrown in his first year after jumping a level in competition the way Kareem was will struggle. Especially if they are put on a defense with no help from the other levels. I think he is doing is job fine. 76 is right that he isn't nearly as bad as many on this board are saying. The precedent for Kareem being so bad has been set by this board and alot of people are piling on plays that were not his fault. The defense is one solid unit, every player on every level has to do there job or someone will look bad, it just so happens he has become our personal lightning rod. Rey your right in the he is not a play maker. Probably never will be he just doesn't seem to process the plays fast enough to react correctly. Maybe when the game slows down for him, and it's painfully obvious it hasn't he will. Some say he is too slow, not true. His technique is bad, his hips are almost always to tight, and to often he opens to the wrong shoulder, but these things are correctable. That being said i think being under Saban they should have been fixed by now and he may just never get it. I don't start Jason Allen, But unless he shows major improvement by the end of the year I don't just settle for Kareem

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-25-2011, 06:46 PM
KJ on the receivers right shoulder
http://i56.tinypic.com/33lcbqb.jpg


KJ stumbles and grabs Donnie Avery on the shoulderpad and waist to keep himself from falling
http://i52.tinypic.com/23icugh.jpg


KJ ends up to the left of the receiver after regaining his balance
http://i52.tinypic.com/547jbm.jpg


Donnie Avery didn't cut back across KJ's face.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-25-2011, 07:03 PM
The receiver who beat Allen was #17 D. Williams.
The ball actually bounced off William's shoulder pad; it was not a good throw at all.


And this is a perfectly thrown ball

http://i56.tinypic.com/2wf1g7b.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/20k6hef.jpg

Rey
10-25-2011, 07:33 PM
And this is a perfectly thrown ball

http://i56.tinypic.com/2wf1g7b.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/20k6hef.jpg

Yeah, that's pretty good coverage by Allen on that play.

leebigeztx
10-25-2011, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the clarification about the conversion.

He still played in 15 games his first year and started one at CB.

He played in all 16 games in his second year and started seven.

He started all 16 games in his third year (2005).

In 06, he registered his first INT in the second game (49th game, not 50th).

Some journalist posted videos of his INTs in 2006; I had mentioned that before in a thread. There was either safety help or he was playing underneath coverage on all the INTs that were shown.

When I study the Raiders lat year, they were in cover 2 a lot.
Asomugha + safety = not somewhere a QB wants to go.

That he was a shut down CB that can cover half of the field by himself is a myth.

The myth is you watched the raiders and saw cover 2 last. They ran alot, mostly 0 coverage last year. Thats why nmandi gave up a 40% completion last year. Its ok to back up kj, but to say the raiders had safety over the top is not true. This year, they run different schemes on the back end because they dont have the talent, mainly nmandi.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 07:39 PM
The myth is you watched the raiders and saw cover 2 last. They ran alot, mostly 0 coverage last year. Thats why nmandi gave up a 40% completion last year. Its ok to back up kj, but to say the raiders had safety over the top is not true. This year, they run different schemes on the back end because they dont have the talent, mainly nmandi.

No Leebig, I watched at least 8 or 9 games!

I still have them and I can go back anytime.

76Texan
10-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Jay, you need to take better screen shots than that!
You need a sequence.
That way you can see that on the side line route by the receiver, the ball was thrown way way way way way way to the inside.
If the receiver wants to get to the ball, he HAS TO cut back across KJ's face.
I need to go to dinner now, but I will post those screen shots.

On the seam route over Allen, one shot is all you need to see that the ball was on the receiver's shoulder pad.
It's amazing how one can say that it was a good pass.
I will post the sequence later as well.

thunderkyss
10-25-2011, 07:53 PM
And this is a perfectly thrown ball

http://i53.tinypic.com/20k6hef.jpg

Looks pretty good to me.

I don't think Allen had much to do with that incompletion though. The ball hit 17 in the hands, then the helmet, then bounced away entirely before Allen gets his hand on that arm.

If the receiver had good hands, that's still beat, that's still a completion.

So that's not really good coverage.

EllisUnit
10-25-2011, 07:57 PM
Jay, you need to take better screen shots than that!
You need a sequence.
That way you can see that on the side line route by the receiver, the ball was thrown way way way way way way to the inside.
If the receiver wants to get to the ball, he HAS TO cut back across KJ's face.
I need to go to dinner now, but I will post those screen shots.

On the seam route over Allen, one shot is all you need to see that the ball was on the receiver's shoulder pad.
It's amazing how one can say that it was a good pass.
I will post the sequence later as well.

a 50 yard bomb that hits a wr in the shoulder pad is a good pass. If allen hadnt been all over him he would of caught it, allen made perfect timing to get there. You should get off of K.Js jock strap. in the off season your argument was ok at best not it is getting to the point of pathetic.

You take situations and turn them to your liking to make K.J look good and allen look bad. You have been doing this since day 1. We like facts around here and not assumptions. So please quit assuming.

K.J will never be a good CB. And hell J. Allen may not be either, but i sure as hell take allen over K.J at this point.

EllisUnit
10-25-2011, 08:11 PM
Infantrycak is talking about comparing our #2 to other #2s....

I think 76Texans has always been more focused on our First round CB compared to other 1st round CBs & using guys like Kyle Wilson & McCourtey makes too much sense, since we passed on them to get "the most NFL ready" of the bunch.

Hayden was taken much higher, Petterson was also regarded a much higher prospect. He contrast Kj to those guys to say, "This is what you get with a rookie CB, regardless how good a prospect he is" just to demonstrate how difficult the position is to learn.

He's taken screen shots of veterans playing similar defensive schemes to demonstrate KJ doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing, and others showing him actually doing it better than some of the ve... ts

It's not so much that 76 is tearing apart other players game, but contrasting what they do to what KJ does for comparison purposes.

But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.

This is all great and dandy. But he is still slow at doing it, still dont have great instincts while doing it, and often gets burned more than most CB do while doing it. I can drive in NASCAR just like the Pros, but be 4 laps slower, but hey i'm doing it how i'm supposed to do, right. So does that make me good, our comparable to Dale Earnhardt Jr,,,,,ummmmm probably not !

leebigeztx
10-26-2011, 01:52 AM
No Leebig, I watched at least 8 or 9 games!

I still have them and I can go back anytime.

make sure you have your glasses on when you watch them also cause i didnt see it.

Rey
10-26-2011, 09:55 AM
Looks pretty good to me.

I don't think Allen had much to do with that incompletion though. The ball hit 17 in the hands, then the helmet, then bounced away entirely before Allen gets his hand on that arm.

If the receiver had good hands, that's still beat, that's still a completion.

So that's not really good coverage.

TK, do you think it is easier or harder to catch a ball when someone is breathing down your neck?

Allen had a lot to do with the pass not being completed and to say otherwise is not looking at the situation honestly.

If the receiver is out there wide open without a defender right there he probably makes that catch easily. If the receiver even has another step or two on Allen he probably makes that catch easily.

When you have good coverage it (1) puts more pressure on the QB to make a great throw, (2) makes the receiver a little antsy when going for the catch.

By Allen grabbing the receivers arm he prevented the receiver from taking a second stab at the ball as well....Also, had the receiver actually grabbed the ball, Allen was in good position to knock it out...

If Kareem had made that play though I have a feeling you guys would have pointed that stuff out though.

But he doesn't make those plays on deep balls. He is best at covering short and intermediate stuff. I actually like his coverage on routes like that, but on deep stuff Allen is just better.

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 10:02 AM
If Kareem had made that play though I have a feeling you guys would have pointed that stuff out though.

I don't think Kj is capable of making that play. If Kj did, I'd probably call it a success..... for him. It would be an improvement.

For someone who is supposed to know how to play.. not so much.


But he doesn't make those plays on deep balls. He is best at covering short and intermediate stuff. I actually like his coverage on routes like that, but on deep stuff Allen is just better.

Agree

Rey
10-26-2011, 10:09 AM
I don't think Kj is capable of making that play. If Kj did, I'd probably call it a success..... for him. It would be an improvement.

For someone who is supposed to know how to play.. not so much.



Agree

TK, Honestly I kind of like the Allen/KJ thing going on at corner...It's grown on me...Kinda like a wart, but dammit it's my wart...

I think they are pushing each other. KJ definitely deserves to get the majority of the playing time though. I don't like players that get manhandled and display poor tackiling techniques and Allen is all of that. But he does serve a purpose.

If KJ could grow into a better all around corner I'd be smitten because the dude can tackle and he is a tough summabeech.

That said, at the end of the year we should know whether we need to look at CB's in the first three rounds by the end of this year. I'm hoping that we won't feel like it's a priority though.

That's where I'm at right now with the CB2 situation...I just don't like having my head pee'd on and to be told it's raining...

thunderkyss
10-26-2011, 10:22 AM
That said, at the end of the year we should know whether we need to look at CB's in the first three rounds by the end of this year. I'm hoping that we won't feel like it's a priority though.

That's where I'm at right now with the CB2 situation...I just don't like having my head pee'd on and to be told it's raining...

I agree, other than we also have Brandon Harris, a 2nd round pick who should be getting in on this conversation.

I do think Allen & Jackson has something going on, & that's the only reason I can imagine Allen is playing & not Harris.

But soon (we're almost at the halfway mark) we need to see Harris, unless they are sold on Kareem, before we can decide where CB is on our draft needs.

I say we, but they're probably seeing enough of him in practice to "know" how he'll do on the field.
:koolaid:

PS: I've got nothing against Allen, but I know he's not the future.

Rey
10-30-2011, 03:38 PM
Nothing against kareem's play today but I just want to reiterate Allen getting his hands on balls and the fact that i like the combo of the two.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 04:30 PM
I think the entire secondary deserves props today. Although it was against a pretty bad passing game. I even saw Kareem play the ball and break up a pass. Baby steps.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 04:44 PM
I think the entire secondary deserves props today. Although it was against a pretty bad passing game. I even saw Kareem play the ball and break up a pass. Baby steps.

also saw him get beat for a td.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 04:51 PM
also saw him get beat for a td.

Yeah but that happens even to the best of them.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 04:57 PM
Yeah but that happens even to the best of them.

i agree but i take allens 3 ints over jackson knocking down a few passes.

ArlingtonTexan
10-30-2011, 05:08 PM
Nothing against kareem's play today but I just want to reiterate Allen getting his hands on balls and the fact that i like the combo of the two.

Wade's usage seems to be minimizing the negatives each of them have. Also, it reflects that neither is currently a true starting CB.

Rey
10-30-2011, 05:11 PM
also saw him get beat for a td.

I've seen Allen literally beat by brandon Marshall for a td.

I'm not saying Kareem is the cutest girl in the room, but he's not the ugliest.

Kareem nor Allen are 10's, but together they are about a 7.

If they're both 3.5's or ones a 4 and the other is a three is non significant at this point.

That position isn't a gaping hole right now and that's all that matters really.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:13 PM
I've seen Allen literally beat by brandon Marshall for a td.

I'm not saying Kareem is the cutest girl in the room, but he's not the ugliest.

Kareem nor Allen are 10's, but together they are about a 7.

i've also seen KJ get beat by a no name WR and TOURCHED for 2 long TDs by him. You know who i'm talking about.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:16 PM
i agree but i take allens 3 ints over jackson knocking down a few passes.

I really don't see Allen as being any better than Kareem. Just that Kareem is younger and still has a ceiling. Allen does have 3 INTs though, the 3rd one was a great play.

The first one was a hail mary INT. Hey if Kareem looks for the ball and tries to make a play on it like he did today he may find himself picking off a pass too.

House of Pain
10-30-2011, 05:23 PM
The way I see it (which I'm sure has been said in this thread a few times) is that Allen is better in coverage, and KJ is a better tackler and plays the run better.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:27 PM
I really don't see Allen as being any better than Kareem. Just that Kareem is younger and still has a ceiling. Allen does have 3 INTs though, the 3rd one was a great play.

The first one was a hail mary INT. Hey if Kareem looks for the ball and tries to make a play on it like he did today he may find himself picking off a pass too.

Thats the key in his second season he still dont do this consistently. And he still gets beat, thank god for our half descent pass rush other wise K.J would still be getting abused.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:29 PM
Thats the key in his second season he still dont do this consistently. And he still gets beat, thank god for our half descent pass rush other wise K.J would still be getting abused.

Couldn't you say the same thing about Allen? He's not exactly over there shutting guys down.

House of Pain
10-30-2011, 05:30 PM
Thats the key in his second season he still dont do this consistently. And he still gets beat, thank god for our half descent pass rush other wise K.J would still be getting abused.

Although I think KJ is a below average CB at this moment, I think the same could be said about just about all CBs on teams with a good pass rush.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:31 PM
Couldn't you say the same thing about Allen? He's not exactly over there shutting guys down.

he still did have a boat load of ints last season, and regardless of what some say. He didnt get beat near as bad as KJ did last season.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:34 PM
he still did have a boat load of ints last season, and regardless of what some say. He didnt get beat near as bad as KJ did last season.

Really everyone sucked on the secondary last year. I'm not going to say anyone played better than anyone else. You can also blame the lack of pass rush as well, poor safety play...I don't know why everyone wants to point to Kareem and say "Thats it!" Even Quinn was moved from CB to Safety. Also of course Kareem didn't do well last season, he was a rookie CB thrown into the fire.

The difference is we have a Defensive coordinator that knows what he's doing and is putting these guys in better positions. Which is probably why we have seen little of Harris this season compared to how Kareem was just thrown out there.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:36 PM
Really everyone sucked on the secondary last year. I'm not going to say anyone played better than anyone else. Even Quinn was moved from CB to Safety. Also of course Kareem didn't do well last season, he was a rookie CB thrown into the fire.

The difference is we have a Defensive coordinator that knows what he's doing and is putting these guys in better positions. Which is probably why we have seen little of Harris this season compared to how Kareem was just thrown out there.

I still have seen NOTHING from KJ this season that shows me he will one day be a good CB. He lacks good CB speed, only thing he can do is tackle, but there are more important traits to being a CB than tackling.

eriadoc
10-30-2011, 05:36 PM
The way I see it (which I'm sure has been said in this thread a few times) is that Allen is better in coverage, and KJ is a better tackler and plays the run better.

If you're going to have a corner be weaker in one than the other, it better be run support in today's league. Jason Allen is no great shakes, but at least he's in on plays and getting involved. Kareem is so frequently trailing plays and/or out of the frame that it's just frustrating to watch.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:42 PM
I still have seen NOTHING from KJ this season that shows me he will one day be a good CB. He lacks good CB speed, only thing he can do is tackle, but there are more important traits to being a CB than tackling.

Honestly if he just looks for the ball he'd make a lot more plays. Speed was never his strength it was always him being physical. I'd say he did that today, today he looked like the 'NFL Ready' corner we were suppose to draft.

I don't know if i'd say he's never did anything good. That's just not true.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:46 PM
Honestly if he just looks for the ball he'd make a lot more plays. Speed was never his strength it was always him being physical. I'd say he did that today, today he looked like the 'NFL Ready' corner we were suppose to draft.

I don't know if i'd say he's never did anything good. That's just not true.

i just said i have seen nothing from him. besides causing 1 fumble, no play of his sticks out to me this season. Waht about jojo, and allen they have plays that stick out. but not him

LikeMike
10-30-2011, 05:46 PM
The thing about KJ: he is improving. He was thrown into an impossible situation last year - and that abuse must`ve hurt his self esteem. The first half of last season was ugly, the second half was bad... the first half of this season is decent. He still seems lost sometimes, but not nearly as bad, as he used to. Right now he is a slightly below average #2CB. But he is getting better. I don`t think he will ever be a shutdown #1CB. But I am pretty sure, that he will develope into a pretty good CB that will earn about 4-6 million a year.

Allen is the flashier player that looks more comfortable on the field. With him you know what you get: agile WR will beat him, he will miss some tackles, but most of the time he will have decent coverage and come up with a cople of INTs in the season. That`s alright for a #2CB - but I don`t see him getting better.

So, just keep doing the time sharing at #2CB, keep em both fresh and let KJ learn a thing or two from JoJo. He will grab the job full time by the start of next season...

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:49 PM
i just said i have seen nothing from him. besides causing 1 fumble, no play of his sticks out to me this season. Waht about jojo, and allen they have plays that stick out. but not him

I think when Kareem has a good play it goes largely unnoticed because he's not getting a INT. He's played good coverage defense before, in fact it happens a lot more than people think around here. Just that it doesn't result in a INT or deflection.

I'm not going to change your opinion. This is how I feel about Kareem though. I think when it is said and done he'll be a better CB than Allen is right now. As for how good he can be, I have no idea. But he's not as bad as he was his rookie year where he was getting put on a island than getting torched and put on highlight reels every week seemingly.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 05:51 PM
The thing about KJ: he is improving. He was thrown into an impossible situation last year - and that abuse must`ve hurt his self esteem. The first half of last season was ugly, the second half was bad... the first half of this season is decent. He still seems lost sometimes, but not nearly as bad, as he used to. Right now he is a slightly below average #2CB. But he is getting better. I don`t think he will ever be a shutdown #1CB. But I am pretty sure, that he will develope into a pretty good CB that will earn about 4-6 million a year.

Allen is the flashier player that looks more comfortable on the field. With him you know what you get: agile WR will beat him, he will miss some tackles, but most of the time he will have decent coverage and come up with a cople of INTs in the season. That`s alright for a #2CB - but I don`t see him getting better.

So, just keep doing the time sharing at #2CB, keep em both fresh and let KJ learn a thing or two from JoJo. He will grab the job full time by the start of next season...

ummmm sometimes, but speed will beat KJ every time. Atleast allen has the ability to run stride for stride with a faster WR.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 05:58 PM
The thing about KJ: he is improving. He was thrown into an impossible situation last year - and that abuse must`ve hurt his self esteem. The first half of last season was ugly, the second half was bad... the first half of this season is decent. He still seems lost sometimes, but not nearly as bad, as he used to. Right now he is a slightly below average #2CB. But he is getting better. I don`t think he will ever be a shutdown #1CB. But I am pretty sure, that he will develope into a pretty good CB that will earn about 4-6 million a year.

Allen is the flashier player that looks more comfortable on the field. With him you know what you get: agile WR will beat him, he will miss some tackles, but most of the time he will have decent coverage and come up with a cople of INTs in the season. That`s alright for a #2CB - but I don`t see him getting better.

So, just keep doing the time sharing at #2CB, keep em both fresh and let KJ learn a thing or two from JoJo. He will grab the job full time by the start of next season...

This is pretty much how I feel about the situation. Except that I believe Kareem can be better than Allen. What we are doing now works for us any ways, splitting time at CB#2.

He's playing a position that has proven to take some time to pick up. It's important that he shows improvement and he has. Either he gets incrementally better and become a solid #2 or #3 Corner which is highly likely...or it suddenly clicks and he becomes a player that we will enjoy watching. He still has that ceiling that Allen just doesn't have any more.

Also that what we are doing now isn't really destroying the team. We still have a top defense and can afford his growing pains...right now at least.

Wolf
10-30-2011, 06:01 PM
We played against one of the worse passing offenses in the league

Carr Bombed
10-30-2011, 06:25 PM
:rolleyes: Jason Allen is a better corner than Kareem Jackson....both get beat, but one makes plays. This thread just need to fade away. Kareem Jackson is not going to pan out as a 1st round pick, he is what he is. A player just doesn't get faster after he's been in the league for multiple years and Kareem Jackson will never posses "closing speed".

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 06:44 PM
:rolleyes: Jason Allen is a better corner than Kareem Jackson....both get beat, but one makes plays. This thread just need to fade away. Kareem Jackson is not going to pan out as a 1st round pick, he is what he is. A player just doesn't get faster after he's been in the league for multiple years and Kareem Jackson will never posses "closing speed".

Playing DB in the NFL is not all about speed. Otherwise Desean Jackson would be a elite WR because he'd be faster than most guys across from him.

Edit: Also that even guys that come in with speed struggle. It's a lot more than just having speed. It's about knowing routes and being physical when you can.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 06:54 PM
Playing DB in the NFL is not all about speed. Otherwise Desean Jackson would be a elite WR because he'd be faster than most guys across from him.

Edit: Also that even guys that come in with speed struggle. It's a lot more than just having speed. It's about knowing routes and being physical when you can.

Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 06:57 PM
Nothing against kareem's play today but I just want to reiterate Allen getting his hands on balls and the fact that i like the combo of the two.

That was a quality INT by Allen. I don't know how Kubiak can justify not giving Allen the starting job. Like you said, it's not that he is necessarily better, but he gets his hands on the ball.

I don't know if that's the message you want to send to Kj, to start taking chances; jumping routes & stuff, but it's not like Allen is taking any.... he's playing good coverage (at times) & taking advantage of opportunity when it presents itself.

Jason Allen plays special teams.. I can see Kareem coming in after Kick-off returns, but if I were Kubiak, Allen would "start" maybe not get any more snaps, but he should be "named" the "starter"

76Texan
10-30-2011, 06:57 PM
:rolleyes: Jason Allen is a better corner than Kareem Jackson....both get beat, but one makes plays. This thread just need to fade away. Kareem Jackson is not going to pan out as a 1st round pick, he is what he is. A player just doesn't get faster after he's been in the league for multiple years and Kareem Jackson will never posses "closing speed".

I seem to remember your showing up in every Chris Myers thread tearing the guy down, saying thing like Myers will never pan out as an NFL center, that h will get abused time and again by opponents' NT and DT, that he will get Matt Schaub killed, etc.

OF course, you can have all your opinions; it doesn't mean that your opinions will be proven to be correct.

Other people are entitled to their oppinions as well.

Now, it just happens that a majority of mine have turned out to be (using TK' term) "more right than not" as compared to yours.

If you think you have come to a conclusion on these players, good for you.
But don't expect a thread like this or similar to it is going to fade away for awhile!

TimeKiller
10-30-2011, 06:58 PM
KJ the "starter" so that everyone looks good. He starts, gets beat a couple times because guess where teams aim 3rd down passes or goalline throws? Right after him. In crunch time situations he gets crunched.

So he geats beat up and Allen comes in. Then Allen performs about as well, except when crunch time comes, he makes a pick.

KJ's future is as a safety and god only knows if he'll be able to handle that. Quin on the other hand, he seems to fit naturally at SS.

LikeMike
10-30-2011, 06:59 PM
K-Jax isnt slow - he just plays slow. I know, right now that is basically the same thing. But when the game slows down for him, he should play faster. It seems like he is always a tad slow while overthinking something.

Yeah, he won`t catch those amazingly fast WRs from behind - but he should be fast enough to stick with em long enough.

Oh and I wouldn`t say speed is the most important thing for a CB - it is being able to stick to the WR in and out of his cuts. That`s more agility than speed.

welsh texan
10-30-2011, 07:07 PM
I seem to remember your showing up in every Chris Myers thread tearing the guy down, saying thing like Myers will never pan out as an NFL center, that h will get abused time and again by opponents' NT and DT, that he will get Matt Schaub killed, etc.

OF course, you can have all your opinions; it doesn't mean that your opinions will be proven to be correct.

Other people are entitled to their oppinions as well.

Now, it just happens that a majority of mine have turned out to be (using TK' term) "more right than not" as compared to yours.

If you think you have come to a conclusion on these players, good for you.
But don't expect a thread like this or similar to it is going to fade away for awhile!

76 can you do some breakdowns of our safety play today? I can't help but think that Quin and Nolan stepped up big time having seen the play on the Allen pick and how the Jags never seemed to get open downfield.

It was a great performance from the backfield today, helped by steady pressure from the front 7 and a rookie QB, but last year, that rookie QB would have had a career day out there so the improvement is immense. Gabbert will have far easier days this season and that is to our credit, worst Offense or not.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 07:07 PM
I think when Kareem has a good play it goes largely unnoticed because he's not getting a INT. He's played good coverage defense before, in fact it happens a lot more than people think around here. Just that it doesn't result in a INT or deflection.


Kareem had a great game today. You can see he's getting a little more comfortable & letting his talent take over. He did get beat on that touchdown, no excuse for that. He needs not to let that happen.

I don't know what more he could have done, since there was a lot of room over there & he was all alone. The only thing I think he could have done, would have been to fight the receiver before he cleared five yards, giving our front 7 time to get the QB.

But his speed was definitely not a problem today. I don't know if those receivers are known for speed, but Kj was step for step with them on many plays.

There also seemed to be several plays where the secondary was a little confused. The Jags came out with 5 receivers a lot & it looked like we weren't expecting it.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 07:09 PM
Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????

Aso's 40 time was 0.03 seconds faster than Kareem. Kareem isn't slow as you are implying.

Speed is more important for a WR, for a CB they need to have the ability to react. Your speed is nothing if you can't react when the guy makes his cut. Thats how slow old WRs like Mason can still make a living just running routes well into their 30s.

welsh texan
10-30-2011, 07:10 PM
Kareem had a great game today. You can see he's getting a little more comfortable & letting his talent take over. He did get beat on that touchdown, no excuse for that. He needs not to let that happen.

I don't know what more he could have done, since there was a lot of room over there & he was all alone. The only thing I think he could have done, would have been to fight the receiver before he cleared five yards, giving our front 7 time to get the QB.


I thought he got caught staring down the QB on the slant, leaving him flat footed as his man cut back outside.

It looked bad but in reality even had he managed to stay with the reciever the amount of space there was he could have been beaten there without putting a foot wrong.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 07:13 PM
ummmm sometimes, but speed will beat KJ every time. Atleast allen has the ability to run stride for stride with a faster WR.

That may be true, but he doesn't. He might have the ability, but Allen looks into the backfield, has some footwork issues, and flat out can not play at the LOS.

I don't mean to tear Allen apart, especially not to make Kj look better than he is. But Allen is nickel corner at best. Well, he's not a nickel corner because he lacks physicality, but he is in no way a #2 CB.

You put a good QB out there & they'll both look silly.

Kjax may be, one day, it's still too early to say he isn't.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 07:16 PM
That was a quality INT by Allen. I don't know how Kubiak can justify not giving Allen the starting job. Like you said, it's not that he is necessarily better, but he gets his hands on the ball.

I don't know if that's the message you want to send to Kj, to start taking chances; jumping routes & stuff, but it's not like Allen is taking any.... he's playing good coverage (at times) & taking advantage of opportunity when it presents itself. Jason Allen plays special teams.. I can see Kareem coming in after Kick-off returns, but if I were Kubiak, Allen would "start" maybe not get any more snaps, but he should be "named" the "starter"

Remember that Jackson continued to play in more series and more snaps after the INT by Allen.

Once gain, I'm good with the situation.
Whoever Wade wants to put out there, I will support him.
I've already disagreed with a certain assessment that one guy is just a nickel and the other a dime back.
Long term, I still see Jackson settling into the starting position; how much improvement I don't know; what is his ceiling, I can't guess yet.

It was a good play by Allen, but it was also the scheme that allowed him to be in position to make the play.

A good QB wouldn't have thrown the ball underneath in that situation
(unless he makes a mistake - we're familiar with this, aren't we.)

We saw how Revis didn't have any INT last year.
Among the 3 INTs he has this year (I think it was 3), at least on two of them that I can recall was when he was put in a position to make the play.
We can only criticize a player when he's put into a situation to make a play but doesn't.
Many times a CB can be in good position, but the QB simply doesn't throw the ball that way.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 07:17 PM
Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????

Kjax isn't slow.

He's a big guy, he can get physical at the LOS with receivers to compensate for speed. If he wins at the LOS & the front 7 pressure the CB, Kjax can be a very good corner... good enough for us anyway.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 07:20 PM
76 can you do some breakdowns of our safety play today? I can't help but think that Quin and Nolan stepped up big time having seen the play on the Allen pick and how the Jags never seemed to get open downfield.

It was a great performance from the backfield today, helped by steady pressure from the front 7 and a rookie QB, but last year, that rookie QB would have had a career day out there so the improvement is immense. Gabbert will have far easier days this season and that is to our credit, worst Offense or not.

I have a day off tomorrow, I can do that.

Unless TK can get to it first.
Have you got the capability to take those screen shots yet, TK?

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 07:21 PM
Kjax isn't slow.

He's a big guy, he can get physical at the LOS with receivers to compensate for speed. If he wins at the LOS & the front 7 pressure the CB, Kjax can be a very good corner... good enough for us anyway.

Yep. No one is drafting a slow corner in the first round in the NFL any ways.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 07:42 PM
I have a day off tomorrow, I can do that.

Unless TK can get to it first.
Have you got the capability to take those screen shots yet, TK?

No, & I don't have the time anyway.

I also think Nolan is far inferior to Danieal Manning.

I was not really appreciating Danieal, hoping Nolan got to see more time..... Now I'm hoping Manning makes a speedy recovery.

Good thing we were playing Gabbert & the Jags.

Carr Bombed
10-30-2011, 08:16 PM
Playing DB in the NFL is not all about speed. Otherwise Desean Jackson would be a elite WR because he'd be faster than most guys across from him.

Edit: Also that even guys that come in with speed struggle. It's a lot more than just having speed. It's about knowing routes and being physical when you can.

DeSean Jackson has nothing to do with corners...he's a WR (BTW Jackson is on pace for his 3rd consecutive 1,000 yard season and is averaging 19 yards per catch...I don't get your criticism here)

A DB has a MUCH greater chance at being a quality player if he has speed simply because a WR already knows exactly what he's going to do and where he's going to run on the field before the ball is even snapped.....a corner.. not so much. he needs "reaction speed" (especially in today's "no chuck" league), he has to be able to adjust to a given route and he needs the speed to close on a receiver. Could a corner live without top tier speed? Yes, if he has the instincts and route recognition. Kareem Jackson has never shown that. Jason Allen would be Petey Faggins if he didn't have that speed..but because he has that speed, he's pushing Jackson (our first round pick from last year) and he has 3 picks. He can close on receivers when beat...something Jackson CAN'T do.

Mr teX
10-30-2011, 08:31 PM
mods, for the love of god, kill this thread please!

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 08:41 PM
DeSean Jackson has nothing to do with corners...he's a WR (BTW Jackson is on pace for his 3rd consecutive 1,000 yard season and is averaging 19 yards per catch...I don't get your criticism here)

A DB has a MUCH greater chance at being a quality player if he has speed simply because a WR already knows exactly what he's going to do and where he's going to run on the field before the ball is even snapped.....a corner.. not so much. he needs "reaction speed" (especially in today's "no chuck" league), he has to be able to adjust to a given route and he needs the speed to close on a receiver. Could a corner live without top tier speed? Yes, if he has the instincts and route recognition. Kareem Jackson has never shown that. Jason Allen would be Petey Faggins if he didn't have that speed..but because he has that speed, he's pushing Jackson (our first round pick from last year) and he has 3 picks. He can close on receivers when beat...something Jackson CAN'T do.

You make some good points. Problem is Allen does not have any closing or make up speed. That's why he plays so far off the line, he tries to stay on top of the receiver, because if they get past him, he's not making it up.

Twice today, he's on top of the receiver when the receiver runs an out... Jason turns all the way around.. turns the wrong way. I think one was completed & the second Gabbert went somewhere else.

If you want to argue that Kj isn't a good corner, that's fine, the argument can be made.

But to argue that Allen is better... no, not really. Different, but not better. A decent QB will find & exploit both of them.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 08:50 PM
DeSean Jackson has nothing to do with corners...he's a WR (BTW Jackson is on pace for his 3rd consecutive 1,000 yard season and is averaging 19 yards per catch...I don't get your criticism here)

A DB has a MUCH greater chance at being a quality player if he has speed simply because a WR already knows exactly what he's going to do and where he's going to run on the field before the ball is even snapped.....a corner.. not so much. he needs "reaction speed" (especially in today's "no chuck" league), he has to be able to adjust to a given route and he needs the speed to close on a receiver. Could a corner live without top tier speed? Yes, if he has the instincts and route recognition. Kareem Jackson has never shown that. Jason Allen would be Petey Faggins if he didn't have that speed..but because he has that speed, he's pushing Jackson (our first round pick from last year) and he has 3 picks. He can close on receivers when beat...something Jackson CAN'T do.

My criticism with Desean is he's not a elite WR. When someone mentions that Kareem doesn't have speed my point was to show you one of the fastest players in the NFL EVEN with the advantage of knowing where he's going can still struggle against slower players.

As far as Kareem's reaction speed. That's where we disagree. I think he DOES have it. He's shown it, you're implying that he has never covered a pass correctly when you say. "Kareem Jackson has never shown that."

As far as INTs. I mean Nnamdi did not get his first pick until he played 3 entire seasons in the NFL. Just because the guy doesn't have more picks doesn't mean he's playing horrible. Also route recognition isn't some innate talent that can't be picked up or learned.

Also why do people want the thread closed? Do you all realize that another Kareem thread will just pop up to replace this one? No one is breaking any forum rules just discussion about a player.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 08:52 PM
You make some good points. Problem is Allen does not have any closing or make up speed. That's why he plays so far off the line, he tries to stay on top of the receiver, because if they get past him, he's not making it up.

Twice today, he's on top of the receiver when the receiver runs an out... Jason turns all the way around.. turns the wrong way. I think one was completed & the second Gabbert went somewhere else.

If you want to argue that Kj isn't a good corner, that's fine, the argument can be made.

But to argue that Allen is better... no, not really. Different, but not better. A decent QB will find & exploit both of them.

This is not a valid argument. Jackso plays off the LOS far more than anyone of our CBs. One of allens qualitys is his ability to jam a WR at the LOS and then stick with him.

ArlingtonTexan
10-30-2011, 08:56 PM
mods, for the love of god, kill this thread please!

Hoestly, for all of the faults of this thread

1) It is better than having people start a fresh one every week

more importantly,

2) despite some posturing, there is a lot of good football talk going on in here.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2011, 09:00 PM
mods, for the love of god, kill this thread please!

But it has the will to live. Some say it gains it's life source through a cathode ray tube, others say it is a weekly seance utilizing bras, imagination and love.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l03pivtaiK1qae69so1_500.jpg

All I know is what I see, and that Jackson remains the weakest link in the chain. Thankfully, the rest of the defense is playing at a level not seen before in Reliant.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 09:07 PM
This is not a valid argument. Jackso plays off the LOS far more than anyone of our CBs. One of allens qualitys is his ability to jam a WR at the LOS and then stick with him.

Jackson wears 25

Allen wears 30

The next time you see 30 jamming a receiver at the LOS will be the first time he's done it this year.

Jackson has been doing a good job jamming the receiver at the LOS this year.

& there is nothing wrong with playing off the LOS... all CBs do it, depending on what defense is called. What matters is what they do when the ball is snapped. Allen is already halfway into his backpedal, regardless how many yards he's off the line.

Kj watches the play, then turns & run with the receiver. He's been very, very tight in his turning & running so far this season.... today, he wasn't so bad, but I think that may be because Jax's receivers aren't very fast.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 09:08 PM
You make some good points. Problem is Allen does not have any closing or make up speed. That's why he plays so far off the line, he tries to stay on top of the receiver, because if they get past him, he's not making it up.

Twice today, he's on top of the receiver when the receiver runs an out... Jason turns all the way around.. turns the wrong way. I think one was completed & the second Gabbert went somewhere else.

If you want to argue that Kj isn't a good corner, that's fine, the argument can be made.

But to argue that Allen is better... no, not really. Different, but not better. A decent QB will find & exploit both of them.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8239bbbc/Jaguars-vs-Texans-highlights

watch allen as he presses the WR at the LOS and then has good coverage and makes the pick.

I swear you all find any excuse to make KJ better than allen. Wade could turn J.A into one hell of a CB. He has all the tools.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 09:11 PM
Jackson wears 25

Allen wears 30

The next time you see 30 jamming a receiver at the LOS will be the first time he's done it this year.

Jackson has been doing a good job jamming the receiver at the LOS this year.

& there is nothing wrong with playing off the LOS... all CBs do it, depending on what defense is called. What matters is what they do when the ball is snapped. Allen is already halfway into his backpedal, regardless how many yards he's off the line.
Kj watches the play, then turns & run with the receiver. He's been very, very tight in his turning & running so far this season.... today, he wasn't so bad, but I think that may be because Jax's receivers aren't very fast.

Now you are contradicting yourself. First it was because allen couldnt make up the speed. now all of the sudden theres nothing wrong with it. Jackson clearly lacks make up speed. more so than allen. I think you KJ and 76 love glasses are blurring your vision.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 09:24 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8239bbbc/Jaguars-vs-Texans-highlights

watch allen as he presses the WR at the LOS and then has good coverage and makes the pick.

I swear you all find any excuse to make KJ better than allen. Wade could turn J.A into one hell of a CB. He has all the tools.

You mean 6 year vet, 28 year old Allen has potential? I think Allen has shown all he could do at this point in his career. A solid depth player and nothing more. He'll do for a #2 CB when you have the front 7 we have.

Also isn't it the opposite with you? If someone mentions anything good KJ did you'll point out the bad.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 09:27 PM
You mean 6 year vet, 28 year old Allen has potential? I think Allen has shown all he could do at this point in his career. A solid depth player and nothing more. He'll do for a #2 CB when you have the front 7 we have.

Also isn't it the opposite with you? If someone mentions anything good KJ did you'll point out the bad.
i said KJ lacks Speed. That is something you cant teach and as of now has bad ball instincts. That can be taught but if he cant hang with WRs on deep routes than he will never be able to.

And all this underlined, goes for 76 and TK they use the double standard more than anyone.

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 09:30 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8239bbbc/Jaguars-vs-Texans-highlights

watch allen as he presses the WR at the LOS and then has good coverage and makes the pick.

I swear you all find any excuse to make KJ better than allen. Wade could turn J.A into one hell of a CB. He has all the tools.

Ok, if that is what you consider pressing & winning, that explains a lot. A better QB would have thrown a better ball to an open receiver...

Now you are contradicting yourself. First it was because allen couldnt make up the speed. now all of the sudden theres nothing wrong with it. Jackson clearly lacks make up speed. more so than allen. I think you KJ and 76 love glasses are blurring your vision.

When I say "make-up" speed or "closing-speed" I'm talking about a burst you normally see a CB have when the receiver is slightly ahead. the ball is usually in the air at this time & it looks similar to a receiver having to slow down to catch the ball allowing the CB to "catch up"

Very few CBs have true "make-up" or "closing-speed"

Playing off the LOS doesn't have much to do with either, in & of itself.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 09:38 PM
Ok, if that is what you consider pressing & winning, that explains a lot. A better QB would have thrown a better ball to an open receiver...



When I say "make-up" speed or "closing-speed" I'm talking about a burst you normally see a CB have when the receiver is slightly ahead. the ball is usually in the air at this time & it looks similar to a receiver having to slow down to catch the ball allowing the CB to "catch up"
Very few CBs have true "make-up" or "closing-speed"

Playing off the LOS doesn't have much to do with either, in & of itself.

OK and KJ does not have this. So what is your argument ?

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 09:38 PM
[/U][/B]
i said KJ lacks Speed. That is something you cant teach and as of now has bad ball instincts. That can be taught but if he cant hang with WRs on deep routes than he will never be able to.

And all this underlined, goes for 76 and TK they use the double standard more than anyone.

Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 09:40 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.

What was Arian Fosters 40 time ???? this will show you the combine 40 means nothing !

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/arian-foster-40-yard-dash.html

it was 4.69. so give me a break

SAMURAITEXAN
10-30-2011, 09:46 PM
What was Arian Fosters 40 time ???? this will show you the combine 40 means nothing !

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/arian-foster-40-yard-dash.html

it was 4.69. so give me a break

I think, Foster had hammy issue not fully recovered when he participated at combine.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 09:55 PM
What was Arian Fosters 40 time ???? this will show you the combine 40 means nothing !

http://40-yard-dash-times.com/arian-foster-40-yard-dash.html

it was 4.69. so give me a break

Which is probably why he went undrafted lol. Yet I think Foster came into the draft with a injury. But you are the one that said Kareem wasn't fast. I said nothing about Foster being slow, but he's definitely not one of the speedier RBs in the NFL. That would go to guys like Chris Johnson, Jahvid Best...I'd take Arian over each of them because he knows how to read holes, make decisive cuts, and go.

Speed is one of the more overrated attributes in the NFL. Lots of players come in defense and offense with all this speed and turn out to be average at best players. That's kinda my point, that KJs speed isn't the problem. It's his technique, reaction time, and inexperience.

But you are right...The 40 time means nothing in relation to how good a player can be...but the guys who do run it well usually turn out to be the fastest players in the NFL. So with all that said Kareem is not a slow Corner.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:02 PM
Lets compare the combine just for giggles

Allen

40 - 4.39
20- 2.55
10 - 1.50
Bench reps - 17
vertical - 39 1/2
broad jump - 10'11''
20 yrd shuttle - 3.83
3 cone drill - 6.77


Jackson

40 - 4.40
20 - 2.52
10 - 1.53
Bench Reps - 13
vertical - 37 1/2
broad jump - 9'10''
20 yrd shuttle - 4.14
3 cone drill - 6.92

ok so allen better in all drills except 1. Do we still want to have an argument ?

GP
10-30-2011, 10:05 PM
One guy has 3 interceptions this season.

The other doesn't.

I'm not sure, but I think you have to (a) be near the intended WR on a pass play, (b) turn around and SEE the ball as it approaches the targeted WR, and (c) secure the interception to seal the deal.

One guy is doing that, one guy isn't.

Oh, and Jason Allen did it with Troy Nolan as the helping Safety on the play, not Manning.

By the way, Kubiak stated in camp and throughout the preseason that JA was pushing KJ for the CB2 spot.

KJ starts games, the past two weeks, then rides the pine the other 75% of the game.

I think if we are discussing which CB2 is better, at this current stage, it's an easy answer. Or ought to be.

ThaJokaa
10-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Combine doesnt mean anything, ask Arian Foster how he did there

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:07 PM
Lets compare the combine just for giggles

Allen

40 - 4.39
20- 2.55
10 - 1.50
Bench reps - 17
vertical - 39 1/2
broad jump - 10'11''
20 yrd shuttle - 3.83
3 cone drill - 6.77


Jackson

40 - 4.40
20 - 2.5210 - 1.53
Bench Reps - 13
vertical - 37 1/2
broad jump - 9'10''
20 yrd shuttle - 4.14
3 cone drill - 6.92

ok so allen better in all drills except 1. Do we still want to have an argument ?

Argument about what? You said he lacked speed. This clearly shows that he doesn't.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:09 PM
Argument about what? You said he lacked speed. This clearly shows that he doesn't.

he also ran a 4.55 in the 40. j allen never went near that even on his slowest. Just saying allen has good speed and we have seen KJ get beat way to often so i doubt that consistent 40 speed he posted.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
Screw the combine. Screw photos.

What happens in the game is what matters.

Jason Allen is a better CB2 than Kareem Jackson RIGHT NOW.

When QBs throw his way, or CONSIDER throwing his way, that QB is going to know Jason Allen has 3 picks at the halfway point of the season and doesn't even get 100% of the snaps.

What do you want? A QB throwing at KJ or at JA?

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
One guy has 3 interceptions this season.

The other doesn't.

I'm not sure, but I think you have to (a) be near the intended WR on a pass play, (b) turn around and SEE the ball as it approaches the targeted WR, and (c) secure the interception to seal the deal.

One guy is doing that, one guy isn't.

Oh, and Jason Allen did it with Troy Nolan as the helping Safety on the play, not Manning.

By the way, Kubiak stated in camp and throughout the preseason that JA was pushing KJ for the CB2 spot.

KJ starts games, the past two weeks, then rides the pine the other 75% of the game.

I think if we are discussing which CB2 is better, at this current stage, it's an easy answer. Or ought to be.

Interceptions are not a end all sign of what CB is playing better. Jason Allen has one less career INT than Aso. So I suppose they are equal? One gets tested more often and one does not.

Also I doubt this 75% number is true.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
When I say "make-up" speed or "closing-speed" I'm talking about a burst you normally see a CB have when the receiver is slightly ahead.

Closing speed to me is completely different than make-up speed. Closing speed would be in reference to closing in on the target (has possession of the ball). Make-up speed would be an instance where they failed their assignment and must leverage their wheels.

I would say Kareem is above average in closing, and wears to much make-up on Sundays.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:13 PM
Combine doesnt mean anything, ask Arian Foster how he did there

Not in relation to actual game skill.

But it was said KJ lacks speed. Thats why the 40 speed was bought up.

silvrhand
10-30-2011, 10:13 PM
A couple weeks ago Allen gave up a TD on a missed tackle, they both have their good games and bad games. Right now it'll come down to who starts getting more reps.

We are much better position than last year, that's all that matters.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:15 PM
Screw the combine. Screw photos.

What happens in the game is what matters.

Jason Allen is a better CB2 than Kareem Jackson RIGHT NOW.

When QBs throw his way, or CONSIDER throwing his way, that QB is going to know Jason Allen has 3 picks at the halfway point of the season and doesn't even get 100% of the snaps.

What do you want? A QB throwing at KJ or at JA?

I don't want the QB throwing that way at all honestly. I remember the Raider game when Allen was targeted an entire drive and then eventually gave up the TD.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:15 PM
Interceptions are not a end all sign of what CB is playing better. Jason Allen has one less career INT than Aso. So I suppose they are equal? One gets tested more often and one does not.

Also I doubt this 75% number is true.

So now the interception numbers don't matter? LOL.

I guess you'd rather the opposing team just continue going down the field?

How can you nullify the impact of a turnover? Was Cushing's lucky interception not important today?

You guys crack me up. The theory that interceptions or QB sacks does not tell a full story is bullshit.

Keep chopping wood, guys.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 10:16 PM
KJ starts games, the past two weeks, then rides the pine the other 75% of the game.


Absolutely incorrect.

Jackson has played more than Allen, especially this week.

I had the count for the Tacks game earlier in this thread.
I will get the count for this game some other time.

But first, I'm going to rewatch the whole game now in one shot.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:18 PM
So now the interception numbers don't matter? LOL.

I guess you'd rather the opposing team just continue going down the field?

How can you nullify the impact of a turnover? Was Cushing's lucky interception not important today?

You guys crack me up. The theory that interceptions or QB sacks does not tell a full story is bullshit.

Keep chopping wood, guys.

Where did I say interceptions didn't matter? Where in my post did I say that?

You said Allen had 3 INTs and KJ had none. Therefore Allen should start. I'm saying INTs are not the end all on judging how well a CB plays. Obviously Nnamdi does not get many INTs but is one of the leagues better Corners.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:19 PM
Absolutely incorrect.

Jackson has played more than Allen, especially this week.

I had the count for the Tacks game earlier in this thread.
I will get the count for this game some other time.

But first, I'm going to rewatch the whole game now in one shot.

see who got a turnover for 7 points and then who gave up 7 points ;) dont forget that break down.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:21 PM
Absolutely incorrect.

Jackson has played more than Allen, especially this week.

I had the count for the Tacks game earlier in this thread.
I will get the count for this game some other time.

But first, I'm going to rewatch the whole game now in one shot.

Oh, I apologize for using too high of a %.

What do your football instincts tell you when a CB is being increasingly phased out of the lineup?

I see #30 all on my screen these past two weeks, with increased frequency. Dude is playing better than KJ. Period.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:23 PM
A couple weeks ago Allen gave up a TD on a missed tackle, they both have their good games and bad games. Right now it'll come down to who starts getting more reps.

We are much better position than last year, that's all that matters.

I've admitted as much. They have both had their moments. I simply rather give KJ more time because he is younger and I don't see this large gap of talent between him and Allen like some others here so I see no harm in playing him.

It's really that simple for me.

Allen is a more opportunistic DB though that has shown he can go get the ball...that doesn't necessarily make him better though.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2011, 10:27 PM
Oh, I apologize for using too high of a %.

What do your football instincts tell you when a CB is being increasingly phased out of the lineup?

I see #30 all on my screen these past two weeks, with increased frequency. Dude is playing better than KJ. Period.

What's up with the three sentence responses? If this is a halo effect from the Texans being in first place, then there is hope that this thread will go the way of Zed.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 10:32 PM
Oh, I apologize for using too high of a %.

What do your football instincts tell you when a CB is being increasingly phased out of the lineup?I see #30 all on my screen these past two weeks, with increased frequency. Dude is playing better than KJ. Period.

That said CB (in your usage) would be Allen.
Earlier in the season, it was pretty much 2 series for each, thereabout.
Since Jackson came back he has been taking away series and snaps from Allen.

Right now, this is the case.
I don't know what Wade will do next week.
.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:34 PM
Where did I say interceptions didn't matter? Where in my post did I say that?

You said Allen had 3 INTs and KJ had none. Therefore Allen should start. I'm saying INTs are not the end all on judging how well a CB plays. Obviously Nnamdi does not get many INTs but is one of the leagues better Corners.

Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."

Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?

Following this line of logic out to its natural and logical end...wouldn't you prefer that your players are capable of either scoring points or regaining the ball so your offense can score said points? Isn't this THE most rudimentary and logical "goal" of football?

Or is it our goal as football fans to pour over thousands of photos of a player and try to understand why he's a "victim" or to know that he has a "plight" etc., etc.?

I've had enough of the "It's not entirely Kareem Jackson's fault he can't play better than Jason Allen" escapades.

The story I'm interested in is "Who is the better and more productive CB this 2011 season?" The answer is Jason Allen. Maybe next year KJ blossoms but I doubt it.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:38 PM
What's up with the three sentence responses? If this is a halo effect from the Texans being in first place, then there is hope that this thread will go the way of Zed.

It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:40 PM
It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.

:hurrah:

76Texan
10-30-2011, 10:40 PM
Oh, I apologize for using too high of a %.

What do your football instincts tell you when a CB is being increasingly phased out of the lineup?

I see #30 all on my screen these past two weeks, with increased frequency. Dude is playing better than KJ. Period.

That said CB (in your usage) would be Allen.
Earlier in the season, it was pretty much 2 series for each, thereabout.
Since Jackson came back he has been taking away series and snaps from Allen.

Right now, this is the case.
I don't know what Wade will do next week.
.

And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:42 PM
And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.

Ohhhhh now whoever the coaches play, that must be the best players :fingergun: . That is the most comical statment in this whole thread.

GP
10-30-2011, 10:44 PM
I've admitted as much. They have both had their moments. I simply rather give KJ more time because he is younger and I don't see this large gap of talent between him and Allen like some others here so I see no harm in playing him.

It's really that simple for me.

Allen is a more opportunistic DB though that has shown he can go get the ball...that doesn't necessarily make him better though.

How do you re-read that last paragraph of yours (above) and not understand how frustrating it is for someone like me to not be frustrated with your assessment???

That paragraph is 100% telling.

You seriously say that because he's more opportunistic AND gets to the ball, that THAT doesn't necessarily make him better?

Oy. I need a Tums....

76Texan
10-30-2011, 10:45 PM
Ohhhhh now whoever the coaches play, that must be the best players :fingergun: . That is the most comical statment in this whole thread.

You need to read more carefully.
That is what he (GP) said!

You're saying that he's being comical?!

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:46 PM
Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."

Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?

Following this line of logic out to its natural and logical end...wouldn't you prefer that your players are capable of either scoring points or regaining the ball so your offense can score said points? Isn't this THE most rudimentary and logical "goal" of football?


No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2011, 10:47 PM
It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.

This is Texans' country - just wear the right colored jersey, consume the content and yell "first down," and you'll get your towel on Fan Appreciation Day.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:48 PM
You need to read more carefully.
That is what he (GP) said!

You're saying that he's being comical?!

you are the one saying KJ plays more because he is better. So sounds to me like ur saying it as well

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:50 PM
How do you re-read that last paragraph of yours (above) and not understand how frustrating it is for someone like me to not be frustrated with your assessment???

That paragraph is 100% telling.

You seriously say that because he's more opportunistic AND gets to the ball, that THAT doesn't necessarily make him better?

Oy. I need a Tums....

Deangelo Hall is opportunistic also. Doesn't make him one of the better CBs in the NFL though.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 10:50 PM
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.

why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson

GP
10-30-2011, 10:53 PM
And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.

No, KJ has been playing more because he is in need of showing that he is worthy of his billing as our 1st round pick two drafts ago.

Thank GOD that WP is at least rotating them in and out and not trying to force KJ on us for the entire duration of games.

If KJ was all that and a bag of chips, he'd be out there for every snap. Not seeing his playing time decrease (steadily) two weeks in a row.

Just because a team is trying to cover its ass on a draft pick, which happens A LOT in all 32 teams, doesn't mean the team is playing it's best players. It's holding onto a stock and hoping its value increases...but some stocks are just dogs and you gotta find a way to dump those types of stocks. I figure KJ will be here through his rookie contract, or not, depending on how it is structured.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 10:56 PM
you are the one saying KJ plays more because he is better. So sounds to me like ur saying it as well

Obviously, in the long run, the better player will see more of the field.
There's nothing comical in that.
But it wasn't something I brought up in these last few posts.

In these last few posts, it was GP who said that since "he thought" (incorrectly) that Allen was playing more than Jackson, it should be "clear" that Allen is the better player.
Those are his assessments.

I was only telling him that based on his criteria, Jackson is the better player, because Jackson has been playing more.

You really need to read the posts more carefully!

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 10:57 PM
why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson

I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.

For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:01 PM
I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.
For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.

It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 11:12 PM
If KJ was all that and a bag of chips, he'd be out there for every snap. Not seeing his playing time decrease (steadily) two weeks in a row.

Once again, this is absolutely incorrect.
It's the other way around, Jackson has been playing more since he came back from injury than before (the first 3 games).

76Texan
10-30-2011, 11:15 PM
It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.

Revis got thrown at quite a bit last year.
There was link to some stats site in one of the threads.
He didn't have a good year.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:19 PM
Revis got thrown at quite a bit last year.
There was link to some stats site in one of the threads.
He didn't have a good year.

it is still beyond foolish to always compare KJ to Reevis and Aso. He is not even in the same ball park so quit comparing . Thats like me comparing the Canada military to the United States. It just seems foolish

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 11:20 PM
It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.

You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.

Texn4life
10-30-2011, 11:22 PM
Revis got thrown at quite a bit last year.
There was link to some stats site in one of the threads.
He didn't have a good year.

Revis was hurt early in the year last year so that may have had something to do with it. He was back to form from mid-season on though.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:22 PM
You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.

heres the problem, KJ is thrown at a lot and still makes no plays on the ball. Wow he deflected a pass today against the worst passing offense in the NFL. D MVP right there :whip:

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 11:27 PM
You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.

heres the problem, KJ is thrown at a lot and still makes no plays on the ball. Wow he deflected a pass today against the worst passing offense in the NFL. D MVP right there :whip:

Hmm seems to me he played some good coverage today and didn't get targeted at times as well.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:29 PM
[QUOTE=EllisUnit;1816365]

Hmm seems to me he played some good coverage today and didn't get targeted at times as well.

the guy was like 9 of 30 come on now really. and that is not cause KJ is so bad ass

76Texan
10-30-2011, 11:34 PM
it is still beyond foolish to always compare KJ to Reevis and Aso. He is not even in the same ball park so quit comparing . Thats like me comparing the Canada military to the United States. It just seems foolish

You're crazy, dude!

And that's why it's so irritating, I just don't want to respond to your posts.

I'm not comparing KJ to these guys.
When I compare them, it would be against their first and a half year in the league!

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:35 PM
You're crazy, dude!

And that's why it's so irritating, I just don't want to respond to your posts.

I'm not comparing KJ to these guys.
When I compare them, it would be against their first and a half year in the league!

if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=fiasco west;1816371]

the guy was like 9 of 30 come on now really. and that is not cause Jason Allen is so bad ass

fixed.

Personally I'd credit the front 7 a lot more...

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 11:36 PM
Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."

How do you expect anyone to keep up if you're arguing with your imagination half the time? You can't put words in a guys mouth like that.

He said INTs aren't everything when grading CBs.. just like sacks aren't the most important thing when grading DL

Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?

The goal of the offense is to score points.

The goal of the defense is to stop them from scoring points.

Taking the ball away is the most effective way of preventing the other team from scoring, but it is not the only way. If Kareem gets a 1 for 20 snaps where he performed well, a 0 for three snaps he didn't then he scores 20 out of 23. giving up a TD, lets say that knocks him down 2 points. 18 out of 23.

Jason Allen, then scores 1 point for 16 plays where he performed well out of 22 snaps, then 2 points for the INT, Allen scores 18 out of 22 then it's a wash & you're lucky their QB didn't take advantage of the 6 snaps Allen didn't do his job.

Now I'm just pulling these numbers out of thin air, I have no idea how the Texans are grading their CBs.... I also have not charted each play, but my gut is telling me that Kareem has been much more solid in coverage than Allen. I don't know if he's been so much better that it compensates for Allens knack for INTs.

I've already said that I would "reward" Allen with the "starter" tag, but if I were king, Kj would still get more snaps than Allen, because Kj looks like the future at #2CB.

The story I'm interested in is "Who is the better and more productive CB this 2011 season?" The answer is Jason Allen. Maybe next year KJ blossoms but I doubt it.

Kj's worse series, he kept allowing Lance Moore to complete a slant in front of him. Three times in a row. Then when he "adjusts" to take away the slant, Moore runs right by him for a TD.

Kj's next action was against the Ravens.... Flacco tested him, but pretty much got nothing (other than the PI).

Now, Allen get's punked by Brandon Marshall.... twice, once he got rode like a cheap whore into the endzone.

He got picked on against the Steelers, gave up some yards, not much... did come up with an INT.

Heyward-Bay ran three out routes on Allen, before the half. Stopping the clock with each reception (this was inside of two minutes). Allen decides to try to stop him, and gets trucked (that's code for ran the f@$ over) for a TD.


Other than the Lance Moore drive in New Orleans, Kj has been pretty quite until today, when he gave up 1 TD.

I think the argument can be made that Kj has been more productive than Allen even without the use of all the pictures

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 11:39 PM
if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.

Man i'm not the one saying KJ is slow. Whose 40 time do you want me to bring out to compare with? Petey Faggins?

I guarantee you when a team gets a new young WR that people are looking at AJ and seeing how their guy stacks up.

76Texan
10-30-2011, 11:40 PM
if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.

You are crazy dude!

When I bring up a specific play that is to compare how different CBs play a certain route/pattern in a certain coverage.

When I brought up the numbers of INTs it was to show that some higher draft choices didn't have much to speak of earlier in their career either!

thunderkyss
10-30-2011, 11:47 PM
You are crazy dude!

When I bring up a specific play that is to compare how different CBs play a certain route/pattern in a certain coverage.

When I brought up the numbers of INTs it was to show that some higher draft choices didn't have much to speak of earlier in their career either!

He wants you to stop because he can't argue your points.

EllisUnit
10-30-2011, 11:54 PM
The fact of the matter is i have hear 76 make up every excuse in the world to defend KJ. And most have had nothing to do with KJs bad play. Like the safties having a vendetta against him, our he was the victim of a bad front 7.

It is hard to argue with you 76 when you twist and turn stats and make up coverages through snap shots to make KJ look good, and then when allen has a good play you give him NO credit. I know Allen is no All Pro but he has played better than KJ every since we brought him in last season.

I have heard enough of you KJ Bull Shit, we will pick this up when he is fully considered a bust. Which by the looks of things wont be very long.

fiasco west
10-30-2011, 11:56 PM
....

Other than the Lance Moore drive in New Orleans, Kj has been pretty quite until today, when he gave up 1 TD.

I think the argument can be made that Kj has been more productive than Allen even without the use of all the pictures

With this post i'm going to leave the KJ thing alone for now. I've been seeing the same thing. Especially the Raiders game.

KJ has had one really bad game (The Saints game) and other than that has looked decent and has shown good improvement from his rookie year. Really that's all that matters to me.

Rey
10-30-2011, 11:57 PM
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:00 AM
The fact of the matter is i have hear 76 make up every excuse in the world to defend KJ. And most have had nothing to do with KJs bad play. Like the safties having a vendetta against him, our he was the victim of a bad front 7.

It is hard to argue with you 76 when you twist and turn stats and make up coverages through snap shots to make KJ look good, and then when allen has a good play you give him NO credit. I know Allen is no All Pro but he has played better than KJ every since we brought him in last season.

I have heard enough of you KJ Bull Shit, we will pick this up when he is fully considered a bust. Which by the looks of things wont be very long.You had made your points for Allen that you can make.
You said you would wait and see who will get the starting job for this season, and that would pretty much ascertain that "you are right" about Allen.
Well, Allen isn't starting.
And so, up to this point, whatever you looked at doesn't prove your case.

On the other hand, the guy who you've been calling a bust continues to start.

Did I twist and turn anything there?

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:00 AM
With this post i'm going to leave the KJ thing alone for now. I've been seeing the same thing. Especially the Raiders game.

KJ has had one really bad game (The Saints game) and other than that has looked decent and has shown good improvement from his rookie year. Really that's all that matters to me.

Kj missed two games so that minimized his chances for error.

But let's not act like kj has become some solid player. He's given up some big plays in a few of the games hes participated in. he's had his share of ugly moments.

By the sane token Allen has had some ugly moments as well.

Neither one has separated really.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:02 AM
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.

I just want to reiterate that I have yet to criticize Allen this year.

For me, it has always been letting Wade deciding on whom to play, and whom to start.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 12:05 AM
You had made your points for Allen that you can make.
You said you would wait and see who will get the starting job for this season, and that would pretty much ascertain that "you are right" about Allen.
Well, Allen isn't starting.
And so, up to this point, whatever you looked at doesn't prove your case.

On the other hand, the guy who you've been calling a bust continues to start.

Did I twist and turn anything there?

Ummm you contradict yourself so much. Just because the guys who drafted him continue to start him dont make it right. And you said that GP made this foolish statment earlier. You just made this statment.

Your love for KJ is sick. I wish we didnt have allen our KJ but since we have to have one our the other out there i choose allen.

foo82
10-31-2011, 12:09 AM
Seriously why the hell are you guys still arguing this.

Top 5 pass defense.
Number 1 in percentage complete allowed...

Now if K.Jax is as bad as everyone keeps saying, our numbers would be much worse than that.

Norg
10-31-2011, 12:10 AM
Ill keep it short


I think Jackson played pretty good today and hopefully he will improve each week

fiasco west
10-31-2011, 12:10 AM
Kj missed two games so that minimized his chances for error.

But let's not act like kj has become some solid player. He's given up some big plays in a few of the games hes participated in. he's had his share of ugly moments.

By the sane token Allen has had some ugly moments as well.

Neither one has separated really.

I really don't care who starts and agree that no one has really won the job. The only thing that matters is Kareem's development to me. It is a bonus that Allen isn't a terrible CB given that we picked him up off waivers last season.

But Kareem's growth as a player is what I'm interested in and I understand he's going to give up plays as all corners do especially young ones. But some of the comments would have you believe that Kareem is one of the worst starting CBs in the NFL...or at least that he's a terrible player that isn't capable of playing the position in the NFL. I just don't agree with that (although we could do much better...and much worse too like Fred Bennet and Faggins....)

I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:17 AM
Ummm you contradict yourself so much. Just because the guys who drafted him continue to start him dont make it right. And you said that GP made this foolish statment earlier. You just made this statment.



The one who contradicts himself is you.
You said you'd be down with whomever Wade choses to start, that you just want to see both of them to play better.

The statements I brought up was your viewpoint.

When you argue with your own viewpoint, you are contradicting with yourself.

Norg
10-31-2011, 12:17 AM
TBO i dont even think Jackson is one of the worst rooke CB in the leauge much less all CB in the leauge

I think if u pull of a CB stat sheet Jackson is not on the bottom

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:20 AM
I really don't care who starts and agree that no one has really won the job. The only thing that matters is Kareem's development to me. It is a bonus that Allen isn't a terrible CB given that we picked him up off waivers last season.

But Kareem's growth as a player is what I'm interested in and I understand he's going to give up plays as all corners do especially young ones. But some of the comments would have you believe that Kareem is one of the worst starting CBs in the NFL...or at least that he's a terrible player that isn't capable of playing the position in the NFL. I just don't agree with that (although we could do much better...and much worse too like Fred Bennet and Faggins....)

I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.Good post!

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 12:21 AM
The one who contradicts himself is you.
You said you'd be down with whomever Wade choses to start, that you just want to see both of them to play better.The statements I brought up was your viewpoint.

When you argue with your own viewpoint, you are contradicting with yourself.

and i still do, but only one of them is playing better and its not your boy. So not contradicting myself.

I still hope KJ turns into an amazing player. I dont wish for him to fail. I just see him failing. If not for all your crazy talk about how KJ is victim of this and that i would never even mention KJ.

He has played better than last season, i will give him that. BUT i still think allen has played better and AT THIS POINT IN TIME shows more potential.

Rey
10-31-2011, 12:28 AM
I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.

Whoever believes that is wrong IMO.

Both have played better since the beginning of the year.

I'm not worried about development. Kareem has plenty resources and snaps to develop.

I just want the best product on the field on a game to game basis. Right mow Kareem Allen( or Jason Jackson) is working.

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:28 AM
and i still do, but only one of them is playing better and its not your boy. So not contradicting myself.

I still hope KJ turns into an amazing player. I dont wish for him to fail. I just see him failing. If not for all your crazy talk about how KJ is victim of this and that i would never even mention KJ.

He has played better than last season, i will give him that. BUT i still think allen has played better and AT THIS POINT IN TIME shows more potential.

No, you went against your words when you said that you'd be OK with whomever Wade choses to be the starter, but now you're still saying that Allen should be the starter.

Take it like a man, dude!

When Wade thinks Allen gives the team the better chance to win, he will start him.

Texanmike02
10-31-2011, 12:33 AM
I stopped reading this page weeks ago but I wanted to come in and say one thing. KJ played very well today. Allen played very well today. Allen got the INT but KJ had two very nicely defended balls today. Allen did too. Neither was torched. Say what you want about rookie QB and Jags but they both looked good today. That's not a guarantee for next week of course but it is a big difference from last year.

Mike

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 12:34 AM
No, you went against your words when you said that you'd be OK with whomever Wade choses to be the starter, but now you're still saying that Allen should be the starter.

Take it like a man, dude!

When Wade thinks Allen gives the team the better chance to win, he will start him.

:whip: nope. until Kubiak finally sees KJ for what he HAS been KJ will start. Hell if KJ becomes the next reevis i will gladly eat my crow and be happy about it. But as it stands he is MMMIIILLLLEEESSSS away !

76Texan
10-31-2011, 12:39 AM
:whip: nope. until Kubiak finally sees KJ for what he HAS been KJ will start. Hell if KJ becomes the next reevis i will gladly eat my crow and be happy about it. But as it stands he is MMMIIILLLLEEESSSS away !

Fine, be that way! :runaway:

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 12:40 AM
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.
I agree with this. I can't imagine Wade not throwing Allen a bone & naming him the starter from here on out, but Kj would still get more snaps.

My only gripe here, is with the guys who think hands down Allen is a better player. When I'm at the game, all I do is watch the receivers & corners. When Allen is on the field I smh all the time thanking our lucky stars we aren't playing any quality QBs.

It was different earlier this year, Kj was just as bad. But heJs got better every game. Today was a very good game for him. I said it earlier, looks like the game is slowing down & his talent is starting to take over. Come play-off time, I think Kj is going to be ready to be the full time starter.

But then what do you do with Allen? Put him in as the nickel? I don't think he is a full time player, but he does deserve playing time. Then we've got Brandon Harris sitting on the Bench. It's a good problem to have really.

Texn4life
10-31-2011, 12:44 AM
I agree with this. I can't imagine Wade not throwing Allen a bone & naming him the starter from here on out.

My only gripe here, is with the guys who think hands down Allen is a better player. When I'm at the game, all I do is watch the receivers & corners. When Allen is on the field I smh all the time thanking our lucky stars we aren't playing any quality QBs.

It was different earlier this year, Kj was just as bad. But heJs got better every game. Today was a very good game for him. I said it earlier, looks like the game is slowing down & his talent is starting to take over. Come play-off time, I think Kj is going to be ready to be the full time starter.

But then what do you do with Allen? Put him in as the nickel? I don't think he is a full time player, but he does deserve playing time. Then we've got Brandon Harris sitting on the Bench. It's a good problem to have really.

Someone had a great point in saying that they're different players. Kareem had his strengths and Allen has his. The fact of the matter is I think Wade will find a way to incorporate them into the game to allow our defense to be successful. What difference does it make how we get it done?

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2011, 12:49 AM
Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????

Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.

Texn4life
10-31-2011, 12:55 AM
Does Eric Allen count because he wasn't fast? Well actually neither him or Bobby Taylor were fast and they were one of the best CB duos for years.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:40 AM
Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.

Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.

Just stop.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 03:32 PM
Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.
Just stop.

TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!

Rey
10-31-2011, 04:26 PM
TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!

I don't know if you have compared KJ to the elites, but you have kinda gotten to the point to where you aren't looking at the players objectively...IMO of course...

Seriously, what has either one of them done (playing wise) that says he is clearly the best player to have on the field as the starter taking a majority of the snaps?

They both have looked pretty bad at times, but as the year has progressed they have actually been a pretty good combo...KJ has stepped his game up...That's not even a question...Allen has made some big plays...As long as Allen is making INT's and making plays like he did against pitt he deserves to take some of those snaps...

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:18 PM
I don't know if you have compared KJ to the elites, but you have kinda gotten to the point to where you aren't looking at the players objectively...IMO of course...

Seriously, what has either one of them done (playing wise) that says he is clearly the best player to have on the field as the starter taking a majority of the snaps?

They both have looked pretty bad at times, but as the year has progressed they have actually been a pretty good combo...KJ has stepped his game up...That's not even a question...Allen has made some big plays...As long as Allen is making INT's and making plays like he did against pitt he deserves to take some of those snaps...

Your post has nothing to do with TK continually talking out of his ass like he does every post on this thread. I respect most of his opinions but to try to call me out and make claims that are not true to make me look bad is bull shit. They can make up excuses, make up coverages, blame safties, blame coaching, blame the other CBs for KJ, and not actually blame him. But to call me out and say i compare him to top CBs around the league is horse shit. Especially when he still has yet to show ONE exapmle of me doing this !!!!

So in other words your post i quoted above has nothing to do with TK showing me those quotes. Only reason i tear KJ down so badly NOW is because they tear allen down worse. And allen has more ints, more passes defended than KJ this year, and has played less time.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:36 PM
Playing DB in the NFL is not all about speed. Otherwise Desean Jackson would be a elite WR because he'd be faster than most guys across from him.

Edit: Also that even guys that come in with speed struggle. It's a lot more than just having speed. It's about knowing routes and being physical when you can.

Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????

Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.

Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.

Just stop.

TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!

Let's see. You're the one who brought up Aso & Reevis in this conversation here. I just cut in to stop the Pencil Neck from your "why are we talking about Aso & Reevis" post like you did earlier, even though you brought up Aso & Reevis

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:39 PM
Let's see. You're the one who brought up Aso & Reevis in this conversation here. I just cut in to stop the Pencil Neck from your "why are we talking about Aso & Reevis" post like you did earlier, even though you brought up Aso & Reevis

That is it hahahaha.........if you want to go back further you will see where Fiasco brought in other CBs names to compare speed to KJ and i am talking about further than you did go back, well before i did. Thats why i threw them names out there. Not because i was trying to compare them. You are like 76 you see what you want to see.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:42 PM
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.

why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson

Is this not a comparison of KJ to Aso & Reevis? Is this not you making the comparison? Good point by the way, but this is you making the comparison

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:44 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.

There is where it all started.......... i didnt mention ONE name until he came up with this B.S

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:44 PM
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.

why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson
I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.

For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.

It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.

This is you making another comparison. Actually, it's the same comparison, you just did it again.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:45 PM
Is this not a comparison of KJ to Aso & Reevis? Is this not you making the comparison? Good point by the way, but this is you making the comparison

Read my above post and you will see WHY i said their names. because Fiasco brought them into it.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:48 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.

None of mine are comparisons. I am simply feeding off of his comparison. He brought them itno all this talk.....i never compare unless trying to prove someone else who brings the players in wrong. which is the case here

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:48 PM
That is it hahahaha.........if you want to go back further you will see where Fiasco brought in other CBs names to compare speed to KJ and i am talking about further than you did go back, well before i did. Thats why i threw them names out there. Not because i was trying to compare them. You are like 76 you see what you want to see.

I think you're having a hard time following this conversation, & should probably stop.

I didn't say you started the comparison, I said you compared Kj to Aso & Revis, then when someone made a comment about your comparison, you jumped on them for using the names Aso & Reevis.

Corrosion
10-31-2011, 08:50 PM
Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.

40 times are over rated .... actual playing speed and reactions arent. :spin:

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:50 PM
There is where it all started.......... i didnt mention ONE name until he came up with this B.S

& that came up because you said (or someone said) that Kj was slow. fiasco's post was showing that Kj's speed is in line with top NFL corners.

Somehow you missed that. You'd still like to believe Kj is slow. Or at least it seems that way.

thunderkyss
10-31-2011, 08:52 PM
None of mine are comparisons. I am simply feeding off of his comparison. He brought them itno all this talk.....i never compare unless trying to prove someone else who brings the players in wrong. which is the case here

Keywords have been bolded.

Bottom line, someone is talking out their ass, & this time it isn't me.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:53 PM
I think you're having a hard time following this conversation, & should probably stop.

I didn't say you started the comparison, I said you compared Kj to Aso & Revis, then when someone made a comment about your comparison, you jumped on them for using the names Aso & Reevis.

Yeah how else am i sipposed to argue with someone who is trying to compare the 3 ??? Say CB a and CB b ??? No i perfer not to compare them at all cause they are not in the same class.

EllisUnit
10-31-2011, 08:55 PM
Keywords have been bolded.

Bottom line, someone is talking out their ass, & this time it isn't me.

so who was at fault for WWII Hitler/Germany our America ???? I bet youd say America :kitten:

redwhiteANDblue
10-31-2011, 09:04 PM
:backsout:

fiasco west
11-01-2011, 12:31 AM
40 times are over rated .... actual playing speed and reactions arent. :spin:

Yep I know. I said as much also. But 40 times still tell you a players actual speed.

Also Ellis, you should backtrack to page 30. I did not mention them first. So you are wrong when you say I did.

silvrhand
11-01-2011, 10:27 AM
so who was at fault for WWII Hitler/Germany our America ???? I bet youd say America :kitten:

I invoke Godwin's law.. this thread is officially closed..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

HTown2ATX
11-01-2011, 11:42 AM
:confused:

:popcorn:

foo82
11-01-2011, 12:49 PM
so who was at fault for WWII Hitler/Germany our America ???? I bet youd say America :kitten:

sigh...

El Tejano
11-01-2011, 02:54 PM
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.

thunderkyss
11-01-2011, 03:05 PM
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.

55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.

Here (http://blog.chron.com/texansextrapoints/2011/11/kareem-jackson-not-there-yet-but-getting-closer/)'s something I got from today's Chronicle:
“To me, Kareem has played really, really solid,” he said. “I told (assistant secondary coach) Perry Carter, he’s all over these guys. It’s a start.”

As far as the Int thing goes, I agree. Allen's 3 INTs in a part time roll should get him something. But if I'm trying to determine why the Texans are playing Kj as much as they are, & I'm not satisfied with the, "he's a 1st round pick & they're trying to save face" excuse, I've got to watch each of them & grade them on their performance.

It's not easy to do from the TV, but it can be done. However, if you go to the game & focus on those two players, Kj is clearly a better CB right now. He's more confident, which allows him to be more physical.

You can tell he's more confident, because at the line, Kj will almost always try to get a hand on the receiver.. Allen will almost always break into his back pedal before the snap.

& vs the Jags receivers, Kj was running with them step for step. Kj's the future at #2CB... Allen is a band-aid

infantrycak
11-01-2011, 03:06 PM
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.

Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?

foo82
11-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Revis had 0 ints last year....Interceptions are not the only figures to judge a cb by. In fact, I don't think KJax has been targeted quite as often (very good sign). If you are playing good coverage, QBs will not throw at your man. The only time I can think of where Kjax was picked on was the fourth quarter of NO game in which Brees just dumped it qiuckly on a slant route over and over again.

thunderkyss
11-02-2011, 08:11 AM
Figured this (http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-secondary-coach-makes-positive-impact-2247683.php) should go here.

Spend enough time around the Texans' defensive backs, and a mention of coach VJ - first-year secondary coach Vance Joseph - is inevitable. And for good reason. A beleaguered unit that was last a year ago in pass defense is now ranked fifth, allowing 189.4 yards per game. Opponents are completing only 50.8 percent of their passes, and quarterbacks are registering a 65.9 passer rating against the Texans, the third lowest in the NFL.

"It's all about relationships," Vance Joseph said. "They know when it's real, when you care about their well-being. That gets lost in the NFL. If you build something in guys, you can coach them as hard as you want."

He refuses to yell for the sake of yelling. His honesty extends from the field to the meeting room, where flaws are practically celebrated. Transparency is vital. Players openly discuss each other's weaknesses, but not in the hopes of tearing down a teammate. Rather, the openness allows the players to feel comfortable, to ask questions that might not have been asked before and to even volunteer suggestions.
http://www.chron.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1720044&width=628&height=471

Rey
11-02-2011, 09:02 AM
Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?

Revis had 0 ints last year....Interceptions are not the only figures to judge a cb by. In fact, I don't think KJax has been targeted quite as often (very good sign). If you are playing good coverage, QBs will not throw at your man. The only time I can think of where Kjax was picked on was the fourth quarter of NO game in which Brees just dumped it qiuckly on a slant route over and over again.


The way you guys are talking you make INT's seem like a bad thing. :kitten:

foo82
11-02-2011, 10:20 AM
The way you guys are talking you make INT's seem like a bad thing. :kitten:

It's a great thing, but it's not the sole way to measure by.

Kthx
11-02-2011, 10:22 AM
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 10:28 AM
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.

True, but Henne was coming off of a 400 yard game before we played him, and Campbell was playing pretty well too until he got hurt. Flacco has always been a great home field QB as well. The only teams that I say we faced that didn't pose any passing threat at all are the Colts and Jags. Even Tennessee had been moving the ball through the air pretty well until we faced them.

Rey
11-02-2011, 10:49 AM
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.

No team faces top level passing attacks every week in the regular season.

thunderkyss
11-02-2011, 10:50 AM
http://www.chron.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1720044&width=628&height=471

Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?

El Tejano
11-02-2011, 10:51 AM
Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?

But Allen also has a few more passes defensed than Jackson does too right?

Kthx
11-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Yeah but there are some who go up against a lot tougher.

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?

In the article Vance Joseph did say that he's been working with his defensive backs on that play. It sounds like our off-season coaching moves are paying off more than we realize.

Rey
11-02-2011, 10:59 AM
Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?


Not to me. It looks like a throw to the inside.

welsh texan
11-02-2011, 11:00 AM
The secondary as a whole has improved with each passing game this season, the most exciting thing about that is the fact that they still haven't peaked yet.

The loss of Manning didn't seem to hinder them either last week which is a major positive, part of me did wonder if we'd miss his veteran leadership from behind the play and would lose out across the secondary as a whole because of that, but no, Nolan stepped in and Quin stepped up.

Here's to hoping Kareems reduced playing time gives him the opportunity to develop into that #2 role, Allen is doing a reasonable job at this point and making a few plays into the bargain, not a bad option to have and gives Kareem a chance to take extra in-game coaching to get better.

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Not to me. It looks like a throw to the inside.

Well technically it was a poorly thrown back shoulder throw.

Rey
11-02-2011, 11:19 AM
Well technically it was a poorly thrown back shoulder throw.


Not sure how you know that...but ok I guess...

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Not sure how you know that...but ok I guess...

Because I watched the game and the play. If a receiver has to turn inside to try and break up this pass on a back shoulder fade then it's not a well thrown ball.

Rey
11-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Because I watched the game and the play. If a receiver has to turn inside to try and break up this pass on a back shoulder fade then it's not a well thrown ball.

How do you know what the QB's intentions were is my point

eriadoc
11-02-2011, 12:00 PM
38 pages to try and argue an inarguable point. Jeez.

Nothing said here changes the fact that KJ is not a good cornerback, and isn't even the 2nd best CB on a team full of crappy CBs.

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 12:04 PM
How do you know what the QB's intentions were is my point

Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.

Texn4life
11-02-2011, 12:07 PM
But then Allen explained the play happened on a back-shoulder fade, the same throw/route on which he had been beaten a couple of times earlier in the season.

"Me and coach VJ, we've been working on that," Allen said.


Quote from the article...... It wasn't a well executed back shoulder fade, but it was an attempted back shoulder fade.

Rey
11-02-2011, 12:21 PM
What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.

Back shoulder throw isn't a type of route.

I'm not arguing the poorly thrown ball and remember how this conversation started. I repsonded to TK saying that the pass didn't appear to be a back shoulder throw and it looks like it was thrown to the inside (which is not where a back shoulder throw should be).

You then responded basically saying it was obviously a poorly thrown back shoulder pass...That's a possibility. But what I'm saying and have been trying to say, and what you basically said above is: There could be other possibilities