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76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:00 PM
Note that in last two frames QB appears to have committed to runnoing or throwing towards Jackson's side and FS Wilson's back remains toward that area of field where WR will take KJ.

I dont think I catch your point.
That was still the early stage of the play.

If you continue to watch the series of screenshot, you will see that Wilson dropped back just past the 35 yard line.
That was where he was still in good position.
At that time, Rivers still had the ball.
Just as in the game against the Raiders, Rivers is very good at "looking off" the safety.
He baits Wilson into thinking that he will go with the crossing route.

Rey
07-24-2011, 11:02 PM
Here's Dunta in cover 2 vs the Titans in 09.

Which guy played the coverage better (stretching their underneath zone)?
Dunta or Jackson?

Which safety played the coverage better?
Wilson on Justin Gage or Nolan on Gaffney?

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717807.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717975.jpg

The guy stood looking near the yard marker was Dunta. He was only 9 yards from the LOS.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/

Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

Rey
07-24-2011, 11:07 PM
I also presented the safeties in these plays as they were.
I look at what their job assignments were and whether they were able to fullfill them.

On the R. Williams play, for example.
It was a one-receiver route with Wilson lining up on that side.
If a safety cannot provide any form of help in that instance, thre's no other conclusion that can be drawn other than he failed utterly at his job.
)

So nevermind that Jackson got his ass handed to him at the Los.

Pretty sure Eugene wasn't expecting Kareem to slip and fall and allow such a quick throw.

A more talented safety probably could have prevented the td but once again you are missing the elephant in the room which is Jackson was awful on the play.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:21 PM
WIll you explain this? Two different types of corners.

i am not saying a safety will never help out Aso but it is well known that Asomugha can take care of one side of field by himself. Yes, he will make some bad plays any any player will but most plays you can roll both safeties away from his side offering more strength to Harris.

Both Jackson and Harris play the same type of coverage in college (pattern matching).
They both play out of the backpedal or turn and run.

Harris split time between CB and nickel (against slot receivers whose speed and size are not the same as a wide-out.)
If you watch Jackson at Alabama, he was your description of Aso at the collegiate level.
Jackson never lost a foot race against the collegiate receivers he faced.
It's been awhile and I don't have my notes, so I can't remember if Harris ever did (I think he did).
Basically, I saw Jackson sticking with the receivers a little better than Harris.
Jackson played help defense (when he comes off his man to help another receiver) a little better than Harris.
Jackson gets off blocks to support the run quite better than Harris.

That's why I say I saw Harris as Jackson's younger brother.

Why do you think they are two different type of corners?
Maybe I missed something!?!

In about 8 games that I watched Aso, he wasn't on his own any more than we saw of Jackson (as of my estimate).
I never saw the Raiders play zero coverage (no safety help).
The Texans did.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:24 PM
Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

What are you talking about.
The guy running with Gage was Wilson.
Dunta was standing around near the down marker.
He was at most 9 yards from the LOS.

76Texan
07-24-2011, 11:31 PM
So nevermind that Jackson got his ass handed to him at the Los.

Pretty sure Eugene wasn't expecting Kareem to slip and fall and allow such a quick throw.

A more talented safety probably could have prevented the td but once again you are missing the elephant in the room which is Jackson was awful on the play.

Quick throw?

1. There was contact between CB and receiver.
That's always give the safety more time than a free release.

2. R.Williams slowed down and reached back to catch the pass.
That ought to give the safety more time.

3. It was a single receiver route.
You can never tell me that a safety is allowed not to be anywhere near the receiver on such a route.

4. As a CB, even as you try to avoid the receiver to get away with an offensive PI, sometimes they still do.

5. I don't get it; I can't see how you can't read your own writing and didn't see that you're not objective.
I was, as I had presented that Wilson's late reaction might have been due to the fact that he saw the Center crossing the LOS illegally to block Diles way before the pass was thrown, and therefore, he may have read "draw, screen, what the heck, he passes the ball, where's the flag?"

thunderkyss
07-25-2011, 12:03 AM
Did you watch the video with sound off?

Must be, 'casue you certainly missed what the announcer was saying:
"Troy Nolan beaten on the play."

Also, there's no specific rule in cover two that the CB has to bump the receiver.
Quin certainly didn't bump the receiver.
And by the way, Jackson lined up at least 7 yards away from the LOS, any kind of bump will be a penalty.

Another note for you: In cover 2, the safety can never be found closer to the LOS than the CB.

Yet another note for you, based on your definition, Dunta was a turtle; he was a mile away from the receiver.

Was that cover 2?

The tight-end started on the outside, Jackson had him. Gaffney was in the slot, looked like Nolan had him..... It looked like man to me.

When the tightend motioned to the RT, Jackson came to get Gaffney, Nolan should have switched to the TE.

Doesn't look like Nolan switched. Gaffney ran right past both Jackson & Nolan......

There are probably a couple of things that should have happened or could've happened on that play. Regardless, there is no reason for KJac to allow Gaffney to run past him when he sees he has no help.

I don't know if that is evidence of lack of talent, or lack of speed. for all I know, he got caught up trying to tell Nolan to back up & go to a cover 2 shell....

thunderkyss
07-25-2011, 12:11 AM
Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717936.jpg

What? This is the picture where KC throws the ball. Dunta is at the top of the screen, with no one around him. He has no affect whatsoever to any throw to any Titan, because he is not around any Titan.

This is Dunta half assing it.
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Dunta%20in%20cover%202%20vs%20Titans%20in%2009/vlcsnap-9717958.jpg

This is the receiver catching the ball around the 10 yard line. That's Wilson covering him.

Dunta is at the top of the screen shot, to the left......... by himself.

He ran with the receiver all of 3 yards then released him.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:13 AM
He fell down plenty on the grass field in Reliant.

Hopefully he continues to make the improvements that were starting to show at the end of last yr.

Do you keep track of the times Jackson fall down?
I'm not sure I saw a lot of it.

The R.Williams play, he slipped because Williams pushed on the back shoulder and then pulled on the arm.

In the Giants game, I know there was a bubble screen in which he stepped inside Pollard and his man. I will take a much more detail look, but I'm pretty sure that as he made a change of direction while staying low to the ground. He put a hand on the ground in the proccess, which is a technique; I don't think he slipped.

There was one play I know he fell dwn on his own, but get right up (maybe the Oakland game, maybe on a run by Mcfaden.) It wasn't a big problem as the other guys; it was a run.

I don't keep track of them; there might be one or two more?

At any rate, I've seen other guys slip on their own.
Quin at least twice for sure, Allen at least twice (in just 7 games).
I've seen McCain slipped, Pollard slipped, Wilson slipped.

I'm still not sure what was the big deal with this.
Personally, I think it was just a good joke that caught on like wild fire.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:19 AM
Was that cover 2?

The tight-end started on the outside, Jackson had him. Gaffney was in the slot, looked like Nolan had him..... It looked like man to me.

When the tightend motioned to the RT, Jackson came to get Gaffney, Nolan should have switched to the TE.

Doesn't look like Nolan switched. Gaffney ran right past both Jackson & Nolan......

There are probably a couple of things that should have happened or could've happened on that play. Regardless, there is no reason for KJac to allow Gaffney to run past him when he sees he has no help.

I don't know if that is evidence of lack of talent, or lack of speed. for all I know, he got caught up trying to tell Nolan to back up & go to a cover 2 shell....

It was cover 2, 5-underneath zones, with a 4-man front.
Based on this formation and also the fact that the announcer said "Troy Nolan beaten on the play".
We can tell that Nolan bit the run fake and vacated his two-deep zone.
That can be the only reason for the announcer to say so.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226405.jpg

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:25 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226427.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226549.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226612.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226869.jpg

Lucky
07-25-2011, 06:30 AM
Based on this formation and also the fact that the announcer said "Troy Nolan beaten on the play".
We can tell that Nolan bit the run fake and vacated his two-deep zone.
That can be the only reason for the announcer to say so.
Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

thunderkyss
07-25-2011, 08:41 AM
Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.

Just like Mario's first year, you had several people picking Mario's game apart, because sacks were few & far between. But if you watched Mario play, you knew he was everything we were told he was supposed to be. Just because he wasn't getting sacks had 0 to do with his talent & ability. He needed to learn a little bit more to play at this level & he needed some help.

I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."

& just because the coaches are calling Kareem out is no different than them calling Mario out.

Kareem wasn't sold to us as a shut-down cover corner. That's not what he is, & may never be. Doesn't mean he won't be a very good corner in this league.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 09:19 AM
I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.


I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.


I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."


Coming out of a cover 2 shell and a 5-underneath look against a WR and a TE on that side, I definitely don't see man coverage from Nolan when he stayed that far away from the LOS.

Either the Texans stay with cover 2 or they can go with cover 4 on that side,
If the latter is the case, Jackson had the outside, Nolan had the inside.
It still remained Nolan's responsibility.

Notice that the bottom of the video, they also charged it to Nolan.
The video is by the NFL network, most likely from their weekly Replay format.

In the regular brodcast, the announcer didn't assign any responsibility to anybody. The commentator was ex-QB Steve Berluein, and he didn't have a specific comment either.

In the NFL Network Replay, those NFL guys had time to go through the game to do their analysis before they show the replay a few days after the actual game.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 09:30 AM
Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

Every rookie must improve. I never heard of any coaches saying otherwise.
It's absurd for anybody to think that a guy should stay the same as his rookie year.

I never hint to Jackson's becoming a great CB; I only repeat what his coach said and what Rex Ryan said.
My opinion has alwyas remained the same.
I see Jackson as a solid, all-around CB.
I don't know how far he can take his game to; I never make any prediction for Jackson so please stop with that non-sense, thank you!

Rey
07-25-2011, 11:06 AM
What are you talking about.
The guy running with Gage was Wilson.
Dunta was standing around near the down marker.
He was at most 9 yards from the LOS.

Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

76Texan
07-25-2011, 11:27 AM
Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed

I really do appreciate your detailed response.

I understand and can see where you're coming from.

All we can do is to take a look of each seperate play and try to guess as to what the defense was trying to do. (But that goes for both you and I, and everybody else.)

At the end of the day, everything lies on the shoulder of CB.

I will find time respond to the bolded part, on a play by play basis soon as I can.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 11:42 AM
What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 11:51 AM
What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

The R. Williams play was an illegal forward pass as the Center crossed the LOS to block Diles before the pass was thrown.

Kareem jammed Williams on an inside release (that's help to the safety).
He lost the battle due to an illegal maneuver by Williams.
Sure, he needs to learn to overcome all these nasty tactics by receivers, but it wasn't like he didn't try.
Due to his own tactics, Williams had to slow down a tad and needed to reach back to make the catch (that ought to buy the safety some more time.)
Jackson stumbled due to Williams' tactics but he never gave up on the play.

On a one-receiver route like this, Wilson has got to be able to come over to somehow at least slow down the receiver a little.
If he was able to do that, Jackson would have been able to come back and help make the play.

That pass should have gone for at most a 20-yd gain.

Rey
07-25-2011, 11:54 AM
Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

Receivers and db's tussle and hand fight all the time. Again, Kareem is going to have to start winning more of those battles.

Hopefully he will learn how to combat some of that stuff with more experience.

And I'm not saying Kareem was never in play making distance. What I'm saying is that too often he wasn't.

Kareem gave up a lot of big plays.

I think when you are defending Kareem you are going against peoples views of what they expect from a first round corner.

You don't expect them to look as bad as often as Kareem did. Pointing out that others made mistakes around him doesnt change that fact.

Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 11:55 AM
On the Gaffney's catch, again, the pass was caught on the hashmarks.

Kubiak said that they were in quarter (cover 4); I just remember having it in my notes from his presser.
A pass on the hashmarks is the responsibility of the inside man (Nolan).
That's right through the heart of his zone.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226840.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/Gaffney%2050%20yd%20catch%20in%20cover%202%20reduc e%20size/vlcsnap-6226869.jpg

Rey
07-25-2011, 11:59 AM
Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

76Texan
07-25-2011, 11:59 AM
Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

That is exactly why I want to go over them on a play by play basis.
I haven't gotten through all of them yet.

I never said he didn't have bad moments.
In fact, I did say that!

And even some time ago, when another poster (before Lucky) brought up the other TD to Arijotutu (a 28-yarder, I believe), I admitted right away that it was all Jackson's.

On the 55-yarder, I did say that Jackson wasn't able to squeeze the route because he had to make a baseball turn from the shuffle. It was still on him despite the fact that he wasn't helped by the technique.
If Wade doesn't change how he wants his CBs to play, we will never see the shuffle again.

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2011, 12:01 PM
Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:05 PM
Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:08 PM
If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

I agree.
With a safety blitz, more often than not, we can see the CB work to turn the receiver toward the side line.
The coverage most likely will be different.

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:13 PM
If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:16 PM
None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

It was another one-receiver route.
If there was a safety, he can only be doubling up with Jackson.

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:17 PM
He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

Yes I agree. Which is why I can give him the leeway of having been a rookie corner.

But even for a rookie corner he looked bad overall. of course he did some good things. Of course he wasnt helped by the overall lack of talent in the secondary and on the defense period.

But there are quite a few instances where you can flat out see him getting beat, outrun, or getting bullied by bigger receivers.

thunderkyss
07-25-2011, 12:24 PM
You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.


This goes both ways. You're saying it looks like Dunta was supposed to be in a short zone & that makes sense.

At the same time, 76 tells us what he thinks the Corner & the safety is supposed to be doing.

His takes are just as viable.

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2011, 12:24 PM
None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

Um. No.

In the coverage he was running, his job was to take away the outside and the safety's job was to take away the inside. The safety wasn't there. KJ did his job. He took away the outside. He didn't get beat.

He was standing at the line concentrating on his man. He wasn't looking back behind him to verify that the safety was where he was supposed to be. That's not what he's supposed to do.

"Safety help" doesn't mean that the corner's job is to smother the receiver and take away the whole field and maybe get a little help if things aren't all peaches and cream. "Safety Help" means that it's NOT pure man-on-man. "Safety Help" means that the safety has a responsibility regarding that receiver. It's a double team situation IF that receiver does certain things. And in this case, the receiver DID one of those certain things but because the safety wasn't there, he didn't do his job.

It's like blaming Mario for not taking away a gap that Amobi was supposed to take care of. Part of team defense means doing your job and not trying to take care of other people's jobs as well. You have to trust the rest of the guys to do their jobs. In this case, KJ did his job and trusted the safety to do his... but the safety didn't hold up his end of the bargain.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:24 PM
When I have time, I'm going to post the pass from Collins.
It was the two-man route that we spent a lot of time discussing

In that play, all three parties invloved played it right:

Jackson less than 3 yards from his man; he was in position to defend the play.

Quin coming over on a drop-kick call and was ready for an INT (as Collins threw the ball too far inside; ie. Jackson squeezed the route well.)

Nolan let the crossing route go free (he anticipated that Collins will go deep as Collins did not put on any fake of any kind) and came back;
too bad, Nolan deflected the ball and the receiver caught it.

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:25 PM
It was another one-receiver route.
If there was a safety, he can only be doubling up with Jackson.

Another assumption. You have no idea what a defensive coordinator as his players to do.

Safety could double up or than can be asked to key on a rb if the coordinator is protecting against a screen.

My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.

But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Another assumption. You have no idea what a defensive coordinator as his players to do.

Safety could double up or than can be asked to key on a rb if the coordinator is protecting against a screen.

My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.

But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

Remmber the Chris Johnson play in 2009 where nobody was on him?

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2011, 12:34 PM
My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.


There may be a zillion reasons and times when Jackson has to cover one on one. This just wasn't one of them.

He played the coverage he was supposed to play. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't play poorly. The play succeeded because we were playing 10 on 11.


But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

Think of where he lines up and what he's looking at. He's not looking back behind him to see if there's a safety there. He's focused forward on the receiver. Unless someone yells at him to tell him that there's no safety, he has no way of knowing.

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Um. No.

In the coverage he was running, his job was to take away the outside and the safety's job was to take away the inside. The safety wasn't there. KJ did his job. He took away the outside. He didn't get beat.

He was standing at the line concentrating on his man. He wasn't looking back behind him to verify that the safety was where he was supposed to be. That's not what he's supposed to do.

"Safety help" doesn't mean that the corner's job is to smother the receiver and take away the whole field and maybe get a little help if things aren't all peaches and cream. "Safety Help" means that it's NOT pure man-on-man. "Safety Help" means that the safety has a responsibility regarding that receiver. It's a double team situation IF that receiver does certain things. And in this case, the receiver DID one of those certain things but because the safety wasn't there, he didn't do his job.
.

Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.I hate to say this, but Rey, you keep on generalizing things while all we're doing here is to look at each play seperately.

The Galloway play was a one-receiver route.
If there was a deep safety, what do you expect that safety to be doing?

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:45 PM
There may be a zillion reasons and times when Jackson has to cover one on one. This just wasn't one of them.

He played the coverage he was supposed to play. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't play poorly. The play succeeded because we were playing 10 on 11.



Think of where he lines up and what he's looking at. He's not looking back behind him to see if there's a safety there. He's focused forward on the receiver. Unless someone yells at him to tell him that there's no safety, he has no way of knowing.

presnap DBS do a lot of communicating. If all he is doing is focusing on the receiver how is be getting the playcall?

Often times the safeties are the ones making adjustments for the secondary since they can see more.

Like I said it's possible that he didn't know. Still not a reason to get beat on a deep ball when you have one on one coverage. Yes It's a tough cover, but he was not able to to it.

If you are only effective when you have deep safety help or when the safety plays it exactly right then you are not an asset. As a corner you have to make some plays when you are left one on one. Kareem got beat more often than not when he was forced into those situations. He was not talented enough to go out and make some plays in those situations.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 12:50 PM
presnap DBS do a lot of communicating. If all he is doing is focusing on the receiver how is be getting the playcall?

Often times the safeties are the ones making adjustments for the secondary since they can see more.

Like I said it's possible that he didn't know. Still not a reason to get beat on a deep ball when you have one on one coverage. Yes It's a tough cover, but he was not able to to it.

If you are only effective when you have deep safety help or when the safety plays it exactly right then you are not an asset. As a corner you have to make some plays when you are left one on one. Kareem got beat more often than not when he was forced into those situations. He was not talented enough to go out and make some plays in those situations.

Well, then answer me why Hayden played the outsde the way he did (against Walter).
And why Asomugha played way to the outside the way he did? (Raiders/Chargers)

Neither of them was expecting help over the top?

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2011, 12:51 PM
Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.

CBs shade their coverage based on where they have help and IF they have help.

If a CB is getting safety help over the top, that means that he has to take away the underneath. If a CB is getting safety help on the inside, that means he has to take away the outside. If a CB is playing straight up man, he's got to be on the guy like glue.

Plays are designed to pull that safety in lots of different directions. But once the ball is in the air, the safety has to be able to respond and take care of his responsibilities.

In the play we're talking about, KJ had safety help to the inside and he played it that way. It wasn't his job to take away the inside.

Rey
07-25-2011, 12:55 PM
I hate to say this, but Rey, you keep on generalizing things while all we're doing here is to look at each play seperately.

The Galloway play was a one-receiver route.
If there was a deep safety, what do you expect that safety to be doing?

I think you are missing my point with generalizing is that these individual circumstances don't matter because

1) we have no real clue what the defensive coordinator had a player doing on any given play and can only guess based on how it looks to us

2) when for whatever reason you deem Kareem was left one on one (bad call, player messed up, player next to him sucked, wr pushed him, he was expecting something that wasn't) he grossly underperformed in those situations.

A corner will be left one on one by the sheer nature of the position. Just like the LT.

Just because he is expecting the te or rb to help him out on his man doesnt mean he is ok if he lets his man get through to crush the qb. Not sure how you are not seeing that basic fact.

You are at a position that is hard. You are at a prime position. You need to man up and make some things happen or you're going to get beat Everytime the circumstances aren't perfect.

76Texan
07-25-2011, 01:01 PM
I think you are missing my point with generalizing is that these individual circumstances don't matter because

1) we have no real clue what the defensive coordinator had a player doing on any given play and can only guess based on how it looks to us

2) when for whatever reason you deem Kareem was left one on one (bad call, player messed up, player next to him sucked, wr pushed him, he was expecting something that wasn't) he grossly underperformed in those situations.

A corner will be left one on one by the sheer nature of the position. Just like the LT.
Just because he is expecting the te or rb to help him out on his man doesnt mean he is ok if he lets his man get through to crush the qb. Not sure how you are not seeing that basic fact.

You are at a position that is hard. You are at a prime position. You need to man up and make some things happen or you're going to get beat Everytime the circumstances aren't perfect.
I get your points.

You still haven't anwer me what Hayden and Aso were supposed to be doing in those plays I mentioned.

Also, answer me why Weddle stayed back to protect Jammer on the two passes to JJ and Casey.

Rey
07-25-2011, 01:13 PM
CBs shade their coverage based on where they have help and IF they have help.

If a CB is getting safety help over the top, that means that he has to take away the underneath. If a CB is getting safety help on the inside, that means he has to take away the outside. If a CB is playing straight up man, he's got to be on the guy like glue.

Plays are designed to pull that safety in lots of different directions. But once the ball is in the air, the safety has to be able to respond and take care of his responsibilities.

In the play we're talking about, KJ had safety help to the inside and he played it that way. It wasn't his job to take away the inside.

No.

That is called double coverage. If a safety is playing in a deep zone he's looking at more than one route. There is no such thing as inside help unless the safety is doubling up on your man.

If a safety is in a medium zone then he's playing the zone and not your man. He's there to provide support, not have you pass your man off to him because if the receiver runs past the "inside help" then he's going to be open anyways.

If the safeties job is to follow the receiver even after he crosses his area then he's playing man.

If he's just in a zone then Jackson will be beat after the receiver crosses. You don't rely on your help. You use it but you are not excused if it fails you.

The Pencil Neck
07-25-2011, 02:05 PM
No.

That is called double coverage. If a safety is playing in a deep zone he's looking at more than one route. There is no such thing as inside help unless the safety is doubling up on your man.

I consider that absolutely incorrect.

But that doesn't matter.

If you want to use the words that way, fine. We'll use your definitions.

In your vernacular, it was supposed to be double coverage with the safety picking up the inside half and the safety wasn't there.

76Texan
08-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Here's something I found that is quite specific concerning the 2-man route vs cover 3.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-playbook-Cover-3.html

"The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

Any kind of crossing route works the same as the dig route.
As I mentioned before, the only way the deep safety can step down on the intermediate route is to have the off-side CB to take over the post.

I will show a few more 2-man route.
On an 86-yd TD by Jennings (Packers) against the Dolphins earlir this yr, you will see that the on-side CB V. Davis plays exactly the same way Aso, Hayden, Mathis, or Jackson played.

They all have to protect the side line.

Rey
08-10-2011, 11:59 PM
I consider that absolutely incorrect.

But that doesn't matter.

If you want to use the words that way, fine. We'll use your definitions.

In your vernacular, it was supposed to be double coverage with the safety picking up the inside half and the safety wasn't there.

Just saw this, but I dont think you understand what in saying.

If a corner is in man and a safety is in zone the safety is not playing one route, so therefore he can't be any one corners "inside help".

He's playing his zone and reading the qb.

Which brings me back to my original point. If a corner is playing man coverage on a receiver it's never acceptable to get beat and not be within range of the guy they are holding.

The purpose of a safety helping out a corner is to force double coverage. The safety is not supposed to completely bail the corner out.

Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.

Safeties are reading the play as a whole. They aren't supposed to be a cb's personal guardian.

76Texan
08-11-2011, 12:11 AM
Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.



The only play that I can think of is the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu.

So far, the plays I've been talking about in this thread all belong to the category of safety help was expected!

The Pencil Neck
08-11-2011, 01:05 AM
Just saw this, but I dont think you understand what in saying.

If a corner is in man and a safety is in zone the safety is not playing one route, so therefore he can't be any one corners "inside help".


This is where you make your mistake.


He's playing his zone and reading the qb.

Which brings me back to my original point. If a corner is playing man coverage on a receiver it's never acceptable to get beat and not be within range of the guy they are holding.

The purpose of a safety helping out a corner is to force double coverage. The safety is not supposed to completely bail the corner out.

Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.

Safeties are reading the play as a whole. They aren't supposed to be a cb's personal guardian.

What I'M saying is that in this coverage, the corner is playing the outside of the receiver and expecting the safety to cover the inside IF the ball is thrown to the receiver there. It's not a pure man to man coverage for the corner.

The safety is supposed to be sitting back there and:
1) be aware of the receivers in his zone
2) be aware of where the QB is going with the ball.

When the ball leaves the QBs hands, that safety has to judge where it's going and if it's going to someone in his zone, he needs to get there. This is why QBs like to look the safeties off -- so they're out of position to provide help.

If the pass is going to a receiver running down the hash marks, it's his job to take away the inside passing lane. If it's going to a receiver over the middle, it's his job to converge there. If it's going to a receiver underneath, it's his job to come up.

But his responsibility vis-a-vis that seam is to take away the inside while the CB takes away the area OUTSIDE the hash-marks.

You can tell if the CB is playing this sort of coverage by how he plays the receiver and how he tries to direct the receiver. And in a lot of these instances where KJ is getting blamed for bad man-to-man coverage, he was playing it expecting inside help and not getting it.

Now.

It could be that this is a miscommunication between him and the safety. Or it could be that the safety was screwing up. Or it could be a mistake on his part.

The reason 76 Texan posted so many of these videos was to show OTHER corner backs in the same type of coverage, shading the receiver on one side and more or less pushing the receiver to the safety help.

So it's not a pure man-to-man situation. And it's not a pure double team situation. It's a HELP situation.

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:24 AM
The only play that I can think of is the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu.

So far, the plays I've been talking about in this thread all belong to the category of safety help was expected!

Edit: The only plays that I can think of are the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu and the 6-yd TD on a back shoulder fade to Hakeem Nicks.
(And of course, if you want to add the catch by S. Smith, you can.)

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:40 AM
Thanks, TPN.

Here's the Jennings TD against te Dolphins.
This one is interesting, so I will post the whole sequence here:

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294021.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294072.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294215.jpg

The play-side CB is V. Davis, a first rounder from 2009.
You will see how far off he was from the receiver late in the route (like Aso.)
Jackson was never that far off.

The off-side CB is Allen; and I maintain that Allen didn't play it right.
This is cover 3, not cover 1 and man-under.
Even if it was cover 1, Allen didn't play it right either, because he was very far from his man (just like Quin in the play I posted previously.)

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294315.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294339.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294363.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294378.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294391.jpg

You can see that Davis was getting to react to an outside move.
You can also see that Allen was nowhere close to the crosser.

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:50 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294406.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294435.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294530.jpg

Here you can see that the receiver is about to break Davis' cushion.

You can also see that the safety and the LB were converging on the crosser.
The QB would never throw there!

Allen needed to get back to the post pronto to help on the deep route.

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:54 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294550.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294562.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294572.jpg

The receiver Jennings broke Davis' cushion.
Allen waited until the QB step up in his throw before getting back deep.
That's too late!

76Texan
08-11-2011, 01:59 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294550.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294562.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294572.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294582.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Tworeceiver%20Routes/Jennings%20TD%20vs%20Dolphins/vlcsnap-7294592.jpg

Not only Davis was very far off the receiver, he let the receiver scoot free down the side line, way outside the numbers (far from help.)
The rest was history!

Allen was in position to help, but didn't play it correctly.

Corrosion
08-11-2011, 02:01 AM
76 It looks to me that Allen expected more help as the reciever crossed the middle from the SS or possibly a LB.

When that didnt happen the FS moved up and you are right that Allen didnt get deep early enough. Should have done that as soon as the FS moved up instead he continued laterally.

A mistake by one player is again compounded by the mistakes of another ..... Its a snowball effect. Shit rolls downhill.

76Texan
08-11-2011, 02:09 AM
76 It looks to me that Allen expected more help as the reciever crossed the middle from the SS or possibly a LB.

When that didnt happen the FS moved up and you are right that Allen didnt get deep early enough. Should have done that as soon as the FS moved up instead he continued laterally.

A mistake by one player is again compounded by the mistakes of another ..... Its a snowball effect. Shit rolls downhill.

Yessir, that is pretty much how I saw it as well.
The only thing I would disagree with slightly is that with 3 guys on the back end, you should be able to defend this 2-man route.

Refer to the earlier post about cover 3 by Matt Bowen (this guy has some good reads):

" The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-playbook-Cover-3.html

Corrosion
08-11-2011, 02:13 AM
Yessir, that is pretty much how I saw it as well.
The only thing I would disagree with slightly is that with 3 guys on the back end, you should be able to defend this 2-man route.

Refer to the earlier post about cover 3 by Matt Bowen (this guy has some good reads):

" The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-playbook-Cover-3.html


Right - The SS or LB didnt get middle coverage - the FS bit on the middle route , the other corner is left naked and Allen didnt recover in time to help with the deep ball ..... fail all around.

leebigeztx
08-11-2011, 02:47 AM
In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.

Corrosion
08-11-2011, 03:12 AM
In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.

I thought it was more of a pattern matching zone .... even if it was played horribly by the whole secondary and the ILB who had the short middle zone.

76Texan
08-12-2011, 09:59 AM
In a 2 man route and the suppposed cover 3, the safety and mike were suppose to "rob" route. That display had basically zero to do with allen. The deep third safety should never let anyone get deeper than him. If that was a cover 3, divide the backend into 1/3. Davis and allen are suppose to carry their guys . Looking at that again, it was more of a combo coverage off a press.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.
Basically, you're saying that the deep safety should always stay back, right?
(Just as the quote from an article I had given.)

That would be just the same as what the Chargers did when they gave up 17 yards to JJ on on play and 33 yards to James Casey on another play.

And that was what I contended if the Defens stayed in Cover 3...

However, Wilson, for example, in the same game (Chargers) stepped down on the crossing route just as the deep safety did in the Packers game.
(There were other examples in this thread, maybe you didn't have time to read through the whole thing? It's the main thing I wanted to discuss in this thread.)

That's how the defense would play it if they have a "drop-kick" call on.
When the safety step down on the crosser, the off-side CB takes the post.
(In that case, it has everything to do with Allen.)

76Texan
08-12-2011, 10:08 AM
The common theme in these 2-man pattern is that the play-side CB played it the same way (pretty much.)

They played to guard the sideline (the corner route, the back shoulder fade, the come-backer) ...

... every single one of them, from Aso to Rashean Mathis (Jags) to Hayden (Colts), to Newman (Cowboys), to V. Davis (Dolphins) to Jackson (Texans), among the plays I can remember.

And the result was a constant big play for the offense when the safety step down on the crossing route and the off-side CB doesn't take over the post.

When the off-side CB takes over the post, the situation reverses itself.
Jenkins (Cowboys), for example, had an INT.

For the Texans, Quin almost had a TD when he took over the post against Collins (Titans.)
Unfortunately, Nolan also read the play well and came off the crossing route trying to get back to help.
It was a good effort play by Nolan; however, he got into Quin's way and deflected the ball that the receiver ended up with.
It was just the Texans' luck.

I'll try to show that play soon!

76Texan
08-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Here's the play against Collins that I had promised for a while.

Side view:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2015%20Titans/59yd%20pass%20to%20Britt%20%20Quin%20near%20INT/Side%20view/

Front view:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2015%20Titans/59yd%20pass%20to%20Britt%20%20Quin%20near%20INT/Front%20view/

76Texan
10-14-2011, 12:57 AM
Alright, now that I have had time to watch all the early actions of the Cardinals (Patrick Peterson - the first CB drafted this year, and a highly-touted prospect as the second coming of Deion Sanders by many of the "pros" as well as many of the TT board members), let me recap what I observed.


So far, Peterson had given up 3 passing TDs, including Cam Newton's first as a pro.
He also gave up two rushing TDs (directly).

Peterson was thrown into the fire similarly as Kareem Jackson; however, the safeties have yet to fail him (Peterson). Everything he got, it's on him.


He had one INT at the end of the first half against the Seahawks.

Before that, his QB (Kolb) had thrown an INT with no time left on the clock.
On the run back, the Cards committed a penalty, however.

The ref awarded the Seahawks with one play near midfield.

QB Tavaris Jackson was chased around as he heaved a hail-mary into a crowd of three defenders; one of them tipped the ball away, right toward the fourth defender (Peterson, who had nobody on him.)


Peterson registered 3 PDs.

One of them was in the Seahawks game (I believe they counted the INT as a PD because I don't see anything else in the gamebook that corresponds with a seperate play.)
I didn't see him defend any pass when I watched the game.

The other two were against the Giants.

On one of them, the pass was thrown behind the receiver on a slant and Peterson broke it off (he was trailing the play as most CBs defending the slant.) A good pass would haven been a completion.
It was still a nice play by Peterson though.

The other one was on a fade route in which Peterson overplayed the fade and made a good break up.

However, when he tried to overplayed the fade again later on, the receiver continued on the go route and beat him for a TD.
(A setup).


Peterson registered 22 solos.
Most of these tackles were after a catch.


The 3 TDs he gave up was against the Panthers, the Skins, and the Giants.

Against the Vikings, McNabb only attempted 21 passes, one of them resulted in a 36yd PI on Peterson.
On the same drive, the other Peterson (Adrian) ran over Patrick on a 14yd TD run.
On another TD run to the edge, AP juked PP out of his sock and left him in the dirt.


In fact, the other CB, AJ Jefferson, an UDFA in 2010, played much better for the Cards than Patrick Peterson.

He had 8 PDs and was good in run support.
Quite a few of his 23 solos were in this mode.
Out of college, one of my concern about him is the angle he took on some tackles. That seems to be corrected.

This guy, AJ Jefferson, was the dark horse that I mentioned before the 2010draft.
I gave him a 5th round grade (only because he played for a smaller school - Fresno St.) and thought the Texans should draft him.
(He was good at the combine on a few drills, I can't remember which ones though.)

He played as a reserve in 2 games last year, but earned the starting nod this year.

...

I wonder why we didn't hear the "pros" singing about Patrick Peterson!?! :kitten:

Now, I'm not saying he will be a bust, because he's not.
I do think, however, that touting him as the next Deion Sanders is probably over the top.

76Texan
10-14-2011, 01:09 AM
The next one is McCourty, whom a few of the TT board members brought up (in hindsight) when they "declared" that the Texans picked the wrong guy.

I had talked of McCourty and his limited role in the Pats D last year as a cover 2 corner.
Due to his limited role, and the protection they gave him, McCourty "looked" good in quite a few instances (which prompted the "love").

This year, they don't babysitting him hardly anymore, and he struggled mightily.
So far, at least 4 TD passes can be attributed directly to McCourty this year.
I'm not quite sure about the coverage on another one so I won't mention it.

He has 3 PDS and 29 solos (ie., got thrown on a lot.)

Here's something about him from nfl.com
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823187f8/article/mccourty-asomugha-struggle-to-adjust-to-new-responsibilities

"Scouts look at Nnamdi Asomugha's deployment in Philly, and scratch their heads. Up I-95, changes in the assignments of another corner, second-year Patriot Devin McCourty, have led to serious growing pains.

As a result, both players have taken steps back -- Asomugha because he's playing more zone and more often off receivers, and McCourty because Bill Belichick and Co. are varying his responsibilities and leaning harder on him with less help to his side."

76Texan
10-14-2011, 01:19 AM
When I talked about McCourty during the off-season, I wasn't pulling things out of thin air.
I had watched all the Pats game last year.

When I talked about Asomugha as being a little overrarted by some, I did so by study his games as well.

roooshi
10-14-2011, 02:16 AM
Great analysis! :good:

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 03:23 AM
76, I admire your tenacity.

But when the crowd is quiet about KJax for 2 weeks, then they come out, mob like & attack the man because Drew Brees punked him on the same play, 3 times then burn him for a touchdown..

& we don't hear that same outrage when the same thing happens to a 7 year veteran, (with Jason Campbell at QB)... it's not worth arguing anymore. There's nothing you can do. Factor in that all 3, repetitive plays he allowed the WR to get out of bounds to stop the clock with less than 2 minutes in the half....... sheesh.......

Lucky
10-14-2011, 06:02 AM
This thread is analyzing Peterson & McCourty, so it belongs in the NFL forum.

Rey
10-14-2011, 06:52 AM
76, I admire your tenacity.

But when the crowd is quite about KJax for 2 weeks, then they come out, mob like & attack the man because Drew Brees punked him on the same play, 3 times then burn him for a touchdown..

& we don't hear that same outrage when the same thing happens to a 7 year veteran, (with Jason Campbell at QB)... it's not worth arguing anymore. There's nothing you can do. Factor in that all 3, repetitive plays he allowed the WR to get out of bounds to stop the clock with less than 2 minutes in the half....... sheesh.......

Kjax was our first round pick. Allen was a street FA.

Both suck and that has been said plenty of times.

Kjax hasn't made the amount of big plays since hes been here that Allen has made in the past 5 quarters.

Allen atleast gets his hands on balls and causes turnovers in between getting abused. Kjax doesn't.

I think it is just your perception that Allen doesn't receive criticism because it is everywhere.

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 07:29 AM
Kjax was our first round pick. Allen was a street FA.

When we're arguing who is doing better, who has "earned" playing time, it doesn't matter.

Both suck and that has been said plenty of times.

True.....

Kjax hasn't made the amount of big plays since hes been here that Allen has made in the past 5 quarters.

Allen has had what 2 INTs in that time? KJac has had a forced fumble and 2 INTs since he's been here.

Allen atleast gets his hands on balls and causes turnovers in between getting abused. Kjax doesn't.

That 4 yard tackle for a loss by Allen.... that was rare imo, you'd get a lot more of those with KJax on the field. That missed tackle that burned Allen for the touchdown, KJ would have played it the exact same way & it wouldn't have been a TD. We win the game... (actually it would have been the same, since KJ wouldn't have got the INT that led to the Dressen TD)......

I think it is just your perception that Allen doesn't receive criticism because it is everywhere.

I know he receives criticism... I'm the one criticizing him. He doesn't get the level of criticism KJax gets. Not on this board, not on the Radio, & he should get worse... he's not going to get any better, you know that. There is no reason to believe KJ won't.

foo82
10-14-2011, 07:30 AM
Kjax was our first round pick. Allen was a street FA.

Both suck and that has been said plenty of times.

Kjax hasn't made the amount of big plays since hes been here that Allen has made in the past 5 quarters.

Allen atleast gets his hands on balls and causes turnovers in between getting abused. Kjax doesn't.

I think it is just your perception that Allen doesn't receive criticism because it is everywhere.

At least Kjax doesn't get physically abuse and whiff on tackles allowing for TD runs. He may deflect a ball or so, but he also gives up yardages due to poor tackling.

BigBull17
10-14-2011, 08:24 AM
And the fast receivers of Oakland would run past KJ like he was standing in dry cement. We desperately need a 2nd CB. They are atrocious. My fear is they don't address CB cause that will be admitting KJ was an awful pick.

Rey
10-14-2011, 08:56 AM
When we're arguing who is doing better, who has "earned" playing time, it doesn't matter.

Right....That's why I also mentioned Allen making more plays than KJ...

Allen has had what 2 INTs in that time? KJac has had a forced fumble and 2 INTs since he's been here.

I didn't specify turnovers...Allen's hit on Ward was a big play and at a crucial moment. But besides that, I was using hyperbole...Even if I was overstating it, Allen makes more plays than Kjax when he's in the game..They get roasted in different ways, but the results are similar...Kjax is more physical, tackles better...Allen runs better, plays deep passing routes a little better.

That 4 yard tackle for a loss by Allen.... that was rare imo, you'd get a lot more of those with KJax on the field. That missed tackle that burned Allen for the touchdown, KJ would have played it the exact same way & it wouldn't have been a TD. We win the game... (actually it would have been the same, since KJ wouldn't have got the INT that led to the Dressen TD)......

I've had this conversation with my friend for the past few Sundays. If you ask him, I like Kj more than I like Allen. I call Allen a puhce several times a game. I am surprised any time he hits or makes a tackle with any kind of authority. In my book he is a few steps above Brice McCain when it comes to being physical. And that ain't a compliment.

ArlingtonTexan
10-14-2011, 08:58 AM
Honestly, there is nothing to be gained from another KJ isn't any worse than these guys thread. We have seen the point for at least 6 months now. Got it. Move on.

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 09:22 AM
Ummmm,

KJ is in the same class as Peterson? OK

Peterson is learning, he's 5 games into his career. Unlike KJ if the CB thing doesn't work out for Peterson he can move to S. He's big enough and is a world class athlete. What is KJ again, oh that's right if he improves he might become average at best. But at this point in his career my eyes tell me KJ doesn't have the speed to be a CB2 in the NFL. KJ= bust. Hopefully he improves.

Those still shots are begining to make me think my eyes are lying to me. Do you think we could trade KJ for Peterson? LOL

thunderkyss
10-14-2011, 10:28 AM
Ummmm,

KJ is in the same class as Peterson? OK

Peterson is learning, he's 5 games into his career.

I think that's his point. Corners make mistakes & getting one to translate to instant success in the NFL is rare. Even McCourty is struggling this year. DRC... it took him a season or two before he was anybody worth talking about.

The first two games of the year, there were no complaints about KJ... through three Quarters of the Saints game... no complaints, or at least very few. He gets worked over by Brees in the 4th... & he's all of a sudden the worst CB to ever play the game again.

We're 6th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2011&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1) this year in passing defense through 5 games. KJ played the majority of 3 of them.

So he's getting better... he's "on the right track"

steelbtexan
10-14-2011, 04:12 PM
I think that's his point. Corners make mistakes & getting one to translate to instant success in the NFL is rare. Even McCourty is struggling this year. DRC... it took him a season or two before he was anybody worth talking about.

The first two games of the year, there were no complaints about KJ... through three Quarters of the Saints game... no complaints, or at least very few. He gets worked over by Brees in the 4th... & he's all of a sudden the worst CB to ever play the game again.

We're 6th (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2011&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1) this year in passing defense through 5 games. KJ played the majority of 3 of them.

So he's getting better... he's "on the right track"

He's not the worst, (see Petey Faggins LOL) but he's up there.

On the right track? Is that you BoBBy?

Even Wade doesn't believe in KJ. All of the still shots in the world cant fool what my eyes see. Of course my vision isn't what it used to be. LOL

76Texan
10-14-2011, 08:46 PM
This thread is analyzing Peterson & McCourty, so it belongs in the NFL forum.

If you would, please move this thread back to the main forum where it belongs, thank you!

b0ng
10-15-2011, 11:26 AM
All the analysis in the world will not make Kareem Jackson into a good CB, or even a serviceable one at this point.

Any team that we play will focus heavily on the #2 CB on our team and that's just how it's going to go until the Texans defense and the #2 CB can prove that it's not a sound decision to do so.

76Texan
10-15-2011, 11:39 AM
I think that's his point. Corners make mistakes & getting one to translate to instant success in the NFL is rare. Even McCourty is struggling this year. DRC... it took him a season or two before he was anybody worth talking about.


Thank you, TK!

76Texan
10-15-2011, 11:47 AM
All the analysis in the world will not make Kareem Jackson into a good CB, or even a serviceable one at this point.

Any team that we play will focus heavily on the #2 CB on our team and that's just how it's going to go until the Texans defense and the #2 CB can prove that it's not a sound decision to do so.

The analysis showed that Jackson played better than Patrick Peterson through their respective first five games as a pro.

Both gave up 3 passing TDs.
Peterson was punked on 2 rushing TDs, Jackson none.

Both had one INT, but Jackson's INT against the Giants was "more legitimate" than Peterson's against the Seahawks.

Jackson had 5 PDs while Peterson only had 3.

Jackson made more plays on 3rd down conversions than Peterson due to his tackling prowess (this one I will have to dig, but I'm 100% positive.)

And Peterson was regarded as the best CB prospect in a long long time.
Jackson wasn't even the first CB drafted in his class.

Rey
10-15-2011, 11:56 AM
The analysis showed that Jackson played better than Patrick Peterson through their respective first five games as a pro.

Both gave up 3 passing TDs.
Peterson was punked on 2 rushing TDs, Jackson none.

Both had one INT, but Jackson's INT against the Giants was "more legitimate" than Peterson's against the Seahawks.

Jackson had 5 PDs while Peterson only had 3.

Jackson made more plays on 3rd down conversions than Peterson due to his tackling prowess (this one I will have to dig, but I'm 100% positive.)

And Peterson was regarded as the best CB prospect in a long long time.
Jackson wasn't even the first CB drafted in his class.


Assuming all that is true, what does any of that have to do with whther or not Kareem is a good player for us right now?

76Texan
10-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Assuming all that is true, what does any of that have to do with whther or not Kareem is a good player for us right now?

It has to do with how rookie CBs normally perform when they are thrown into the fire (treated normally without constant babysitting from the safeties or protected by the scheme).

thunderkyss
10-15-2011, 01:43 PM
Assuming all that is true, what does any of that have to do with whther or not Kareem is a good player for us right now?

I think it speaks more to the unreasonable expectations Texans' fans put on Kareem. We think he doesn't deserve a spot on an NFL team, nickel at best. Wade Phillips has him starting from day one & out comes the talks that Kubiak/McNair hamstrung him to Wade Phillips.

76 has done a very good job imo, demonstrating that if you evaluate Kj on his own merit, look at what he does well, what he doesn't do well, Kj right now is the player we drafted with the 20th overall pick & he was everything we were told he would be.

He hasn't had the success of what you'd expect from that player, but that had as much to do with the team he was put on than with KJ himself.

What do you think of when you think of a 1st round Corner? That's what Kj can be. He'll get there quicker by being on the field & playing. It makes more sense to me to put him on the field now. Just like JJ Watt & Brooks Reed, Kj is going to be a much better player at week 11 than he is now.

With Allen on the field, we've got a ceiling..... a ceiling we can reach whether we put Allen on the field now or we put him on the field in week 11.

amazing80
10-15-2011, 10:32 PM
I think it speaks more to the unreasonable expectations Texans' fans put on Kareem. We think he doesn't deserve a spot on an NFL team, nickel at best. Wade Phillips has him starting from day one & out comes the talks that Kubiak/McNair hamstrung him to Wade Phillips.

76 has done a very good job imo, demonstrating that if you evaluate Kj on his own merit, look at what he does well, what he doesn't do well, Kj right now is the player we drafted with the 20th overall pick & he was everything we were told he would be.

He hasn't had the success of what you'd expect from that player, but that had as much to do with the team he was put on than with KJ himself.

What do you think of when you think of a 1st round Corner? That's what Kj can be. He'll get there quicker by being on the field & playing. It makes more sense to me to put him on the field now. Just like JJ Watt & Brooks Reed, Kj is going to be a much better player at week 11 than he is now.

With Allen on the field, we've got a ceiling..... a ceiling we can reach whether we put Allen on the field now or we put him on the field in week 11.

Im not so sure KJax will improve ALL that much. Its not like he is keeping it close and just missing the ball. He is being straight abused. Learning to turn your head and locate the ball is fixable, playing closer to the wide out is fixable, learning to cover a guy is NOT. He has lots of problems and nothing seems to be improving. the problem is, we have no one to go out there and fill in while we "fix" Kareem. If we keep trotting him out there and letting him get abused he could get shell shocked and never improved. We're close to the point of no return on him.

EllisUnit
10-15-2011, 11:10 PM
The analysis showed that Jackson played better than Patrick Peterson through their respective first five games as a pro.

Both gave up 3 passing TDs.
Peterson was punked on 2 rushing TDs, Jackson none.

Both had one INT, but Jackson's INT against the Giants was "more legitimate" than Peterson's against the Seahawks.

Jackson had 5 PDs while Peterson only had 3.

Jackson made more plays on 3rd down conversions than Peterson due to his tackling prowess (this one I will have to dig, but I'm 100% positive.)

And Peterson was regarded as the best CB prospect in a long long time.
Jackson wasn't even the first CB drafted in his class.

ok those stats can easily be viewed in many different ways. First off We were rarely punked by any running plays cause ALL TEAMS DID WAS PASS ON US.

Ok and u say a more lagitimate int ??? Have u watched the INT, it was a way bad throw right into Jacksons arms, its not like he earned it by good coverage. You want to talk about legitimate ints, then compare all of J. Allens and K.J ints since they have been with the texans, Then K.J would look really bad.

thunderkyss
10-16-2011, 03:40 AM
Im not so sure KJax will improve ALL that much. Its not like he is keeping it close and just missing the ball. He is being straight abused. Learning to turn your head and locate the ball is fixable, playing closer to the wide out is fixable, learning to cover a guy is NOT. He has lots of problems and nothing seems to be improving. the problem is, we have no one to go out there and fill in while we "fix" Kareem. If we keep trotting him out there and letting him get abused he could get shell shocked and never improved. We're close to the point of no return on him.

Trust in Wade, is all I'm saying. If he puts KJ on the field, then he's seeing something we ain't.

SAMURAITEXAN
10-16-2011, 04:12 AM
Trust in Wade, is all I'm saying. If he puts KJ on the field, then he's seeing something we ain't.

Agree. In Wade we trust.

Go Texans!!!

steelbtexan
10-16-2011, 06:46 AM
Wades having to make do with what he has.

If he had faith in KJ, Harris and Carmicheal wouldn't have been drafted. There would have been no trade up for Harris.

Carry on with the KJ love fest.

amazing80
10-16-2011, 08:19 AM
Trust in Wade, is all I'm saying. If he puts KJ on the field, then he's seeing something we ain't.

O I agree with this 100% and I do trust in him, but all I'm saying is, maybe corner should be a top priority yet again next off-season. He did inherit the worst secondary EVER.

thunderkyss
10-16-2011, 09:40 AM
O I agree with this 100% and I do trust in him, but all I'm saying is, maybe corner should be a top priority yet again next off-season. He did inherit the worst secondary EVER.

Maybe, but we've got 11 games to figure that out.

hot pickle
10-16-2011, 08:53 PM
kareem jackson sucks! I was defending him all pre season and so far all season, but enough is enough already! why the hell does he play 10-15 yards off his WR every play and joseph is right up there bumping.... is that just wades defense or kareem just suck?

thunderkyss
10-16-2011, 09:00 PM
kareem jackson sucks! I was defending him all pre season and so far all season, but enough is enough already! why the hell does he play 10-15 yards off his WR every play and joseph is right up there bumping.... is that just wades defense or kareem just suck?

Wow.... I was scared Kj was going to get burned quite a bit. He was playing bump & run a lot this game.

Rey
10-16-2011, 10:40 PM
Wow.... I was scared Kj was going to get burned quite a bit. He was playing bump & run a lot this game.

So Kareem exceeded your expectations today?

EllisUnit
10-16-2011, 11:10 PM
Allen has had some big downs this season BUT he has also had 2 good picks. After all that and i didnt see him play one defensive snap all game. Kubiak needs to get over it and let the best of the 2 bad CBs play. haha

76Texan
10-16-2011, 11:27 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover4vsblackout.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover8vsblackout.jpg

Flip these diagrams to correspond with the screen shots.
It looks to me that the Texans were in cover 4 (rather than cover 8 or man).
Cover 4 is the top diagram, cover 8 is the second.


http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/vlcsnap-2011-10-16-20h27m23s19.jpg


Notice that Boldin was the only receiver on Joseph and Quin's side.

76Texan
10-16-2011, 11:35 PM
It makes very little sense to have those two double teaming on Boldin and to leave man coverage on the other side against the bunch formation.

If it was man coverage, it makes more sense with Quin as he middle deep safety.

You can see here that the FS Quin was on the double team with the WCB Joseph.
Quin played over the top (1/2), Joseph trailed (1/4)

The SAM and both ILBS dropped according to the diagram.
There was no blitz, Rey!



http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/vlcsnap-2011-10-16-20h27m50s73.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/vlcsnap-2011-10-16-20h27m54s118.jpg

The whole sequence is here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/

Rey
10-16-2011, 11:42 PM
You are writing your own narrative instead of seeing what actually happened. Boldin is their best receiver and it makes no sense to double him?

Seriously, why do you try to explain away anything bad Kareem does? Its hard to take your analysis serious. All you do is post stuff to highlight other corners mistakes and stuff to make kareem's screw ups someone elses fault.


And I said the lb was in zone. I didn't say anyone blitzed, I said the lb was in a zone.

76Texan
10-16-2011, 11:51 PM
You are writing your own narrative instead of seeing what actually happened. Boldin is their best receiver and it makes no sense to double him?

Seriously, why do you try to explain away anything bad Kareem does? Its hard to take your analysis serious. All you do is post stuff to highlight other corners mistakes and stuff to make kareem's screw ups someone elses fault.


And I said the lb was in zone. I didn't say anyone blitzed, I said the lb was in a zone.

Sorry, I meant to direct that blitzing part to TK.

So if your premise is to have Joseph and Quin double-teaming on their best receiver and leave Jackson covering half of the field playing man on the other, it's fine with me.
I simply give my take; we each write our own narrative!

It makes more sense to me if it was Kareem and Quin doubling on Boldin and Joseph in man coverage on the other WR if we were to play man.

Rey
10-16-2011, 11:53 PM
Sorry, I meant to direct that blitzing part to TK.

So if your premise is to have Joseph and Quin double-teaming on a receiver and leave Jackson covering half of the field playing man, it's fine with me.
I simply give my take; we each write our own narrative!

It makes more sense to me if it was Kareem and Quin doubling on Boldin and Joseph in man coverage on the other WR if we were to play man.

Boldin is their best wr.

It makes more sense to double whoever Kareem is holding though.

EllisUnit
10-16-2011, 11:54 PM
the fact is that KJ got burned, sure he needed safety help of course whn you are a sorry ass CB u always need safety help, so i can agree with you on every argument u have evenr made about KJ getting beat cause of no safety help. He HAS to have help other wise he gets burned, and burned and burned.

76Texan
10-16-2011, 11:55 PM
On the 56yd pass to Boldin, I can't really decide on what coverage the Texans were in.

Here's the sequence:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/56yd%20pass%20to%20Boldin/

76Texan
10-17-2011, 12:05 AM
If this was man coverage then Manning lost the TE on the crossing route.

But KJ cut that guy off while Quin took the seam route.

Manning might have gotten into Joseph's way a little bit.
Joseph was close but still lost it to the other crosser (Boldin).

If it was cover 2 then Manning blew his coverage.

IMO, this is a more difficult pass and a more difficult catch.
Antonio and Watt got to Flacco just a fraction late.

So why didn't we double up on Boldin here, Rey?

In a sense we double up on the other receiver and Joseph was unable to defend Boldin on this play.

leebigeztx
10-17-2011, 12:10 AM
76texan, I understand like your play breakdowns, but jackson just isn't good. He's not a technique or a speed. Once he opens his hips, his speed is gone.his route rocognition. Is very poor also. Smith is a sped guy and he still gave up one of 2 routes he can run. I wish there was an easy fix, but cbs who can't run just doesn't work.

On the bouldin 56 yd pass, it was a terrible throw that joseph lost track of.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 12:21 AM
76texan, I understand like your play breakdowns, but jackson just isn't good. He's not a technique or a speed. Once he opens his hips, his speed is gone.his route rocognition. Is very poor also. Smith is a sped guy and he still gave up one of 2 routes he can run. I wish there was an easy fix, but cbs who can't run just doesn't work.

.

To me, on this play, Jackson (in cover 4) was looking to play a possible corner or seam route by the WR and the out route by the TE.

If it was man, then Jackson was bad on top of the usual poor scheme.

For in man coverage, to have a CB playing outside leverage against an inside release by the receiver is bad percentage.

"For a QB, a throw to the open field is an easy throw and also gives the receiver the whole field to work with.

On the other hand, a throw to the outside is a longer, more difficult throw. Besides, you have the sideline as your friend even if the receiver does make the catch."

Vinny
10-17-2011, 12:27 AM
Boldin is their best wr.

It makes more sense to double whoever Kareem is holding though.
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9FJiDFVoOo), so I can see where you are coming from.

Rey
10-17-2011, 12:34 AM
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9FJiDFVoOo), so I can see where you are coming from.

I was joking. Being facetious. Poking fun at Jackson.

Kareem has not been a good player.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 12:42 AM
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9FJiDFVoOo), so I can see where you are coming from.

Against fast receiver, it's not uncommon for a CB to give more cushion than normal.
Ask Jason Allen when he gave up the long TD pass to Mike Wallace last year.

In this case, however, as I've mentioned to Rey before, it can be similar as in the Saints game, where Joseph was the one who normally gave more cushion to the receiver (at least in the last 3 scoring drives for the Saints that I took the screen shots of) regardless of whom he was on.

It depends on the coverage call, from what I see.

BTW, to be exact, KJ's cushion was 7 yards in a backpedal; Allen's was 8 yard in the shuffle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDdr6I-j1lw&feature=related

76Texan
10-17-2011, 12:58 AM
On a side note, it's kind of weird when people think that Kubiak's job is on the line and he keeps putting Jackson out there over Allen.
Perhaps Wade went along so he can take over Kubiak's job.
But wait, isn't Wade the guy who decides which guys play on defense?
So if he chooses to bench the better player, shouldn't it be on him?

:thinking:

Vinny
10-17-2011, 01:01 AM
On a side note, it's kind of weird when people think that Kubiak's job is on the line and he keeps putting Jackson out there over Allen.
Perhaps Wade went along so he can take over Kubiak's job.
But wait, isn't Wade the guy who decides which guys play on defense?
So if he chooses to bench the better player, shouldn't it be on him?

:thinking:I don't think that either Jackson or Allen are starting caliber guys. Sure they have the body for it, but their body of work says that Allen is a dime corner, and Jackson is a nick. Texans just don't have anyone better really.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 01:09 AM
I don't think that either Jackson or Allen are starting caliber guys. Sure they have the body for it, but their body of work says that Allen is a dime corner, and Jackson is a nick. Texans just don't have anyone better really.

I think fans (including you, Vinny) can be to harsh on some player(s) at times.
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

(And I'm pretty sure that almost all of them (if not all of them) were sky high when his name was called on draft day.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 01:18 AM
Double post

Vinny
10-17-2011, 01:20 AM
I think fans (including you, Vinny) can be to harsh on some player(s) at times.
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

(And I'm pretty sure that almost all of them (if not all of them) were sky high when his name was called on draft day.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 01:32 AM
You are writing your own narrative instead of seeing what actually happened. Boldin is their best receiver and it makes no sense to double him?

Seriously, why do you try to explain away anything bad Kareem does? Its hard to take your analysis serious. All you do is post stuff to highlight other corners mistakes and stuff to make kareem's screw ups someone elses fault.


BTW, I've already know that you disagree with Dan Dierdoff.

I still want to note that he saw it the same way I do.
I'm not the only one who "dreams up" this scenario.
(Just so others know about it.)

Sure, Dierdoff played on the O-line, but at least he made the Pro-Bowl 7 times and was on the All-Decade team and he has been covering football since 1984.
He may not be right all the time (or even most of the time, or whatever), but at least he can offer a decent take - even when he's wrong.

When you use the term "seriously", you discount the fact that you may be wrong and the other person may be right.

I, on the other hand, always stand corrected.
I never claimed what I observed and what I analyzed are the absolute truth.
I always said that it's only my thinking and that I can be wrong.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 01:50 AM
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.

Hey for all I know, you could be right.
At the moment though, I have to go with my own evaluation.
We haven't gone through this but what I do know is that my overall take about the Texans players the last 3 years are pretty solid and I can put it up against yours (I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of your takes.)

Ok, I'm going to start posting some links about PP and the Cards.

First, this sounds like a situation we had with Jackson and McCain/Quin at the beginning of last year:

http://arizonasports.com/category/cardinals-articles/20111011/Cardinals-need-young-players-to-keep-improving/

Here are some posts from the Cards fans after their third game (against the Seahawks, in which he registered the INT).

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57821
.....

Really? It says he got an int on the stat sheet, and the fact that he had a quiet day is a great improvement from getting picked on in the previous games. (Notes: PP gave up a TD in each of the first two games.)
....

He had an int on a hail mary when there was 0.00 left on the half.

I just was disappointed on his punt returns, I felt before this game that he at least had that but now I'm doubting if he is going to play as large of impact as I thought he would.

He was against Seattle this week, probably one of the worst offensive teams in the league.
......

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57853


Maybe we need to put an * on that interception. I love this guy but that was a hail mary on the last play before the half. Not saying it's a gimme, just say'n.
.....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a gimme int for someone on the defense and it just happen to be peterson
....


This is just the beginning.

76Texan
10-17-2011, 01:54 AM
http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=58058

Our Rookie Class

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.P. is a stud ya he is getting burned alot but that **** is gonna happen his rookie year it happenend to C.Woodson

...........

Peterson's play is downgrading the draft every week though.

.....

76Texan
10-17-2011, 02:06 AM
This is after the Skins game (and it was after Cam Newton tore the Cards up):


.....

Sad. Other fans get to talk about which part of their teams are the strongest. Look at us...

What's worse, our secondary or our O-line...
Neither, it's the linebackers...
None of those, it's the coaching...
Well, you can blame the coaching but the Front Office put them there...
Naah, it's the lack of a legitimate #2 receiver...
It's the pash rush...
.....

I'll add, its also a lack of heart. at least the first half. Completely just no fuel
...

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57633

Cards got dominated. It's that simple.


I am tired of seeing TE and WR catch the ball all day with thw closest DB at least 5 yrds away

......

A good QB would have put up 40 on the card today!

....

true. the score should not have been that close our D sucks donkey
...

I think we all need to cry some more
....

76Texan
10-17-2011, 02:18 AM
This one is about the other CB, AJ Jefferson, the UDFA that I was talking about:

....

He's looking like our first round cornerback pick. He's closing well while Peterson has been getting beat in every single game we have played this season....

76Texan
10-17-2011, 02:19 AM
This next thread is pretty hillarious, it's not about Petersen, it's about the Bye week for the Cards:

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=58341

76Texan
10-17-2011, 02:31 AM
http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=58252

This is afer the Vikings game:

Patrick Peterson is soft

...

After watching 2 TD's in the 1st quarter by AP I noticed that PP21 wanted no part of AP on the sideline and then he got run over inside the 5 yard line. I thought that PP21 was this freak with size, speed, and strength? Maybe it shows that he was just surrounded by some great players at LSU and it made him a better player. With the pass rush LSU had QB's would make terrible throws and PP was there to capitalize.
....

I agree as of right now, he's no good. Bottom line is AJ (Jefferson) is outplaying him. Perhaps that means good things, that AJ is and will be quite good, but as of now, 21 (Peterson) is a bad player
...

He's not soft! he's a rookie.
....

oh how hypocritical. when Peterson was not starting in the preseason the whole forum was in an uproar as to why isnt coach starting him! what an *****! omg why is he 3rd string?!

now Peterson is starting when it really matters and the same people are crying , omg peterson is a rookie! he isnt ready! why is he starting?! he is soft!

...

Well, I think Peterson is kind of lost out there because he is so pooly coached...
....

Getting bulldozed into the endzone is definitely embarrassing.

....

Looking back. I would much rather have Kerrigan or Aldon Smith on this team. Peterson is struggling bad which no one my self included ever would have thought.
.....

leebigeztx
10-17-2011, 03:34 AM
76 texan, I guess route recognition goes out the window and letting the man step in front of you also. Jackson is always in the trail technique.

thunderkyss
10-17-2011, 05:03 AM
76 texan, I guess route recognition goes out the window and letting the man step in front of you also. Jackson is always in the trail technique.

I agree with this. 76, even if you're right & that was cover 4 the diagram shows Kj over the top, where Joseph is supposed to jam & trail.

I'm ok with saying Manning screwed the pooch, maybe he thought the LB was supposed to widen out to cover the under on the TEs route, figured he'd be ok since Kj got the deep half. Then he noticed Kj was standing next to him & tried to recover.

But Kj was beat whether that was man or cover4. There's no way Smith should have been allowed behind him.

Over all, I think Kareem had a good game. 3 mistakes, 4 at the most. Two of them really hurt us.

If our offense put up 25 points, chewed up some clock, it wouldn't have hurt so bad.

TEXANRED
10-17-2011, 06:39 AM
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.

You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.

steelbtexan
10-17-2011, 07:54 AM
You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.

Repped

Looking at those numbers should get Rick/Gary fired.

You would think that1 out of the 11 would atleast be a competent NFL caliber CB. BTW, Molden looked better than Allen/KJ against the Cowgirls yesterday.

Rey
10-17-2011, 08:42 AM
When you use the term "seriously", you discount the fact that you may be wrong and the other person may be right.

No...In the context I used "seriously" it means that I am not being an ass hole by asking the question and would like an honest answer.

I, on the other hand, always stand corrected.
I never claimed what I observed and what I analyzed are the absolute truth.
I always said that it's only my thinking and that I can be wrong.

I put IMO after most of the stuff I write too. But that doesn't mean that there are times when I am convinced that I am right and the opposing view is not.

If you tell me Kareem has been a good player and constantly come up with narritives that excuse poor plays by him and always post poor plays from other corners and try to draw some kind of parallel I think you are wrong. JMO.

ArlingtonTexan
10-17-2011, 09:28 AM
You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.

And this is a direct problem for the rest of the team. Wonder why we don't have more OL depth or a young WR capable of challenging Jacoby/Walter; too much time trusting that former DB Rick smith knows what he is looking at and trying to fix the roster versus build one.

Vinny
10-17-2011, 09:30 AM
And this is a direct problem for the rest of the team. Wonder why we don't have more OL depth or a young WR capable of challenging Jacoby/Walter; too much time trusting that former DB Rick smith knows what he is looking at and trying to fix the roster versus build one.bingo, our scouting department or at least the decison makers have proven they have no clue when it comes to drafting cb's, ss's, and fs's

leebigeztx
10-17-2011, 10:00 AM
I agree with this. 76, even if you're right & that was cover 4 the diagram shows Kj over the top, where Joseph is supposed to jam & trail.

I'm ok with saying Manning screwed the pooch, maybe he thought the LB was supposed to widen out to cover the under on the TEs route, figured he'd be ok since Kj got the deep half. Then he noticed Kj was standing next to him & tried to recover.

But Kj was beat whether that was man or cover4. There's no way Smith should have been allowed behind him.

Over all, I think Kareem had a good game. 3 mistakes, 4 at the most. Two of them really hurt us.

If our offense put up 25 points, chewed up some clock, it wouldn't have hurt so bad.

I understand, trust me, I do, but at some point you have to do your job. There isn't one play designed to give it up. Knowing your opponet is also a huge facet of the game. Torrey has shown the ability to run anything on the route tre other than a fly route or post. Jackson gave him a huge cushion because of his speed,like 7 yards. On a post route the stem is normally at 12-15 yds. Once in his back pedal and smith is closing, the stem comes. Because jackson can't open his hips wthout losing speed, once the stem came, the distance was created. If jackson had route recognitionor closing burst, flacco probably never throws that pass because flacco never throws a guy open. The window was there in the lag and now people are talking about manning biting a teaser route. In the nfl, you can't hide poor cb unless you have 85 bears pass rush.

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 12:08 AM
If anyone has the ability to go back & watch the game, please look at the play the Ravens took @6:08 in the 4th Qtr.

It's 2nd & 6 from the Ravens' 37. The score is 19-14 Ravens. Tell me what you think of Kareem's defense of Torrey Smith's out route.

Then watch the next play where he defends a deep crossing route.

Lucky
10-19-2011, 06:32 AM
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.

IDEXAN
10-19-2011, 07:17 AM
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.
Vinny, have any thoughts or comments on draft guru Mike Mayock ranking Kareem higher than NE corner Devin McCourty just prior to the 2010 NFL Draft ?

Vinny
10-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Vinny, have any thoughts or comments on draft guru Mike Mayock ranking Kareem higher than NE corner Devin McCourty just prior to the 2010 NFL Draft ?some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 09:27 PM
some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.

I hate to break this news to you Vinny, but your Peyton of the CBs continued to struggle for the Pats.

He gave up his 5th TD of the year.
It should have been six, but he comiitted PI to prevent it (about 22-yd, but it could have been any distance.)
The receiver was so open he needed to waive to Romo for the ball.
An on-time ball, and Mccourty wouldn't even have a chance to commit PI.

He gave up all 6 passes thrown to his receiver and I was surprised the Cowboys didn't target him more in the second half after he gave up 4 passes and that PI in the first.

That was about 90 yards on those pass plays, and without the help of the safeties and LBs (who made the tackles), it would have been more.

The Texans made the right choice is what I see; or at least, it's too early to tell which guy will have a better career.

It will depend on who can improve more, but at the moment, I'm taking KJ over McCourty.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 09:37 PM
In fairness to McCourty, I want to clarify that the TD was a 2yd catch by Witten.
Bill Belichick had McCourty spying on the TE, following across the LOS.
Looks like Kubiak isn't the only guy who tries to outsmart himself.

Kaiser Toro
10-19-2011, 09:39 PM
I wish Kubiak could outsmart himself into three Super Bowl wins.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 09:52 PM
some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.

I hate to break this news to you Vinny, but your Peyton of the CBs continued to struggle for the Pats.

Don't strawman me pards. I never compared McCourty to anyone. I just gave an example of how there are no set equations or finite workouts that can absolutely project any one player to be this good or that good. I must say that it's hard to read some of your ongoing man-love for Jackson after a while though. It almost feels like I need to take a shower after clicking on your analysis. I'm happy for Jackson though. It must feel good to have such a dedicated fan.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 09:54 PM
I wish Kubiak could outsmart himself into three Super Bowl wins.

You know I was only referring to how a coach can ask a player to do certain thing that makes a person wonder!

Kaiser Toro
10-19-2011, 09:56 PM
You know I was only referring to how a coach can ask a player to do certain thing that makes a person wonder!

I was only playing the double strawman card.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 09:58 PM
Don't strawman me pards. I never compared McCourty to anyone. I just gave an example of how there are no set equations or finite workouts that can absolutely project any one player to be this good or that good. I must say that it's hard to read some of your ongoing man-love for Jackson after a while though. It almost feels like I need to take a shower after clicking on your analysis. I'm happy for Jackson though. It must feel good to have such a dedicated fan.

Obviously, your examples were to the extreme, I did get that!
I do know you don't mean to compare them that way.

What's so wrong about my latest analysis though?
Kubiak did clarify the 51yd catch by Smith wasn't on KJ.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 10:01 PM
I was only playing the double strawman card.

I know you did.
You're always good at sarcasm, that much I know!

Kaiser Toro
10-19-2011, 10:06 PM
I know you did.
You're always good at sarcasm, that much I know!

It helps with the mental pain and suffering. :texflag:

Vinny
10-19-2011, 10:10 PM
Obviously, your examples were to the extreme, I did get that!
I do know you don't mean to compare them that way.

What's so wrong about my latest analysis though?
Kubiak did clarify the 51yd catch by Smith wasn't on KJ.
I'm thinking I didn't agree with it. The start of the breakdown was on the middle linebacker since he was playing zone while everyone was in man. Manning reacted to the crossing target as nobody was covering him while KJ started with a gargantuan cushion but still ended up in trail. I'd say there were 3 breakdowns on that snap.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 10:17 PM
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.

I have already answer this point in another post.
It shows a couple of different things:

A rookie CB who was asked by his DC to do as much as a veteran CB (one-on-one) do struggle and give up big plays, even a guy who was touted as the second-coming of Deion Sanders does struggle.

Unrealistic expectations by some fans make it easy to blame a player for some bad plays he didn't dcommit (on top of the ones he did commit.)

I'm sorry if you didn't see the correlation; some other posters did, that's all I can tell you.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 10:29 PM
I'm thinking I didn't agree with it. The start of the breakdown was on the middle linebacker since he was playing zone while everyone was in man. Manning reacted to the crossing target as nobody was covering him while KJ started with a gargantuan cushion but still ended up in trail. I'd say there were 3 breakdowns on that snap.

Oh, I agree about Cushing.
I read your posts earlier about that play.
I wanted to add to the analysis and what I understand from Wade's playbook (Falcons 2003).
Cushing was supposed to trail the TE.

The WR made a good adjustment.
As I understood, a post route is declared earlier than a corner route.
KJ has to wait for that before he should squeeze (a yard or two further.)

Had Manning get off the TE sooner, Jackson would be able to take over the duty. It would probably still result in a catch, but it should be for a much shorter gain.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 10:32 PM
If you slow it down, you can see that in between waiting for the receiver to declare his intention, Jackson lost all the cushion and a little more.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 10:38 PM
Oh, I agree about Cushing.
I read your posts earlier about that play.
I wanted to add to the analysis and what I understand from Wade's playbook (Falcons 2003).
Cushing was supposed to trail the TE.

The WR made a good adjustment.
As I understood, a post route is declared earlier than a corner route.
KJ has to wait for that before he should squeeze (a yard or two further.)

Had Manning get off the TE sooner, Jackson would be able to take over the duty. It would probably still result in a catch, but it should be for a much shorter gain.
I'm very confident that Jackson's technique was to be in man. Everyone else was in man coverage with 5 targets running in the second and third levels. Every target had a defender on him with a cover2 shell over the top. If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.

I broke it down here.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1806388&postcount=53

76Texan
10-19-2011, 10:55 PM
I'm very confident that Jackson's technique was to be in man. Everyone else was in man coverage with 5 targets running in the second and third levels. Every target had a defender on him with a cover2 shell over the top. If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.

I broke it down here.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1806388&postcount=53

I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).

Cover 4
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover4vsblackout.jpg

Cover 8
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover8vsblackout.jpg

steelbtexan
10-19-2011, 10:55 PM
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.

Really

Is it to much to asfk for the Texans to draft compeyent players?

And if they miss on a pick is it too much to ask for them to admit they made a mistake and move on.

Currenyly it appears that they are only compounding their mistake.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 11:06 PM
In cover 4, as the diagram depicts, the WCB (Joseph) played up on the receiver (Boldin). On Cover 8, Joseph would play off-man.

The MO (Sharpton) played the weak hook and took on the receiver going to his area (the RB)

The SAM (Barwin) and the MIKE (Cushing) were in zone match on the #2 and #3.
Barwin followed the widest (FB Leach), Cushing dropped back but failed to follow the TE.

No matter what, the SS Manning needs to read a little better.
As the QB made more than a 5-step drop, Manning should get back immediately (he was about a couple of steps late).

That is how I saw it.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/LINE-UP.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/PATTERN.jpg

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Receiverroutetree.jpg

The whole sequence can be found here:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/

thunderkyss
10-19-2011, 11:15 PM
If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.



If you are in man coverage, expecting safety help to the inside, it makes sense to allow the WR to pass you to the inside. He did nothing wrong.

However, I believe Manning crossed his face well before Smith challenged him deep. If Kj sees #38 in front of him, he should know he has no help & adjust. He's screwed, since the possible routes Smith can run from this moment is limit less, he's got to make a decision & go with it. I can't think of any decision he should have made that would over-rule staying deeper than the receiver.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:22 PM
I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).Everyone is in man, two safteys over the top. You can call it a cover 4 if you like and you may be right, but I see man coverage with two s over the top to double the wide outs or take the seam if the wr's cut off their routes. The wr at the top of the screen is doubled, all the linebackers are in man coverage. If the mlb plays his technique right, Manning doesn't come downhill and Flacco dumps it down to the Ray Rice in the flat.

There are many different ways to play your coverages. In classic cover 4 the cb's don't tend to hand off their players, so I don't see where you are so sure Jackson was not beat on the play as well. He has a full hip turn early in the sequence and is running full speed. I think we both agree that there are multiple breakdowns on the play.

In any case, I'm not trying to argue your breakdown (you asked me) or your love for KJ :heart:

76Texan
10-19-2011, 11:22 PM
What I observed is that KJ still has to divide his attention (watching the TE route).
Then he had to watch for the seam route as well as the corner route.

I watched Torrey Smith burned the Rams CB (Justin King - 4:31 speed at the combine - in 09 I think) not just on the fly route along the side line or the skinny post where he beat both the CB and the safety (these TDs probably can be seen on nfl.com highlights), but also on a wheel route (out and up) and a seam route where the QB Flacco put the ball just long (on both occasions).

- This is in respond to leebig who thinks that Smith can only run one or two simple routes.

TejasTom
10-19-2011, 11:28 PM
... Cushing dropped back but failed to follow the TE.

No matter what, the SS Manning needs to read a little better.
As the QB made more than a 5-step drop, Manning should get back immediately (he was about a couple of steps late).

That is how I saw it.

I agree, this what I saw. It also agrees with Kubiak's statement that it wasn't Kareem's play.

I can't tell if KJ released from his man (to pick up the TE) before after the ball was in the air.

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:30 PM
I agree, this what I saw. It also agrees with Kubiak's statement that it wasn't Kareem's play.

I can't tell if KJ released from his man (to pick up the TE) before after the ball was in the air.he didn't. He was sprinting back with a full hip turn and not looking back to help. I think 76 has the sequence if he can provide the link again.

76Texan
10-19-2011, 11:35 PM
Everyone is in man, two safteys over the top. You can call it a cover 4 if you like and you may be right, but I see man coverage with two s over the top to double the wide outs or take the seam if the wr's cut off their routes. The wr at the top of the screen is doubled, all the linebackers are in man coverage. If the mlb plays his technique right, Manning doesn't come downhill and Flacco dumps it down to the Ray Rice in the flat.

There are many different ways to play your coverages. In classic cover 4 the cb's don't tend to hand off their players, so I don't see where you are so sure Jackson was not beat on the play as well. He has a full hip turn early in the sequence and is running full speed. I think we both agree that there are multiple breakdowns on the play.

In any case, I'm not trying to argue your breakdown (you asked me) or your love for KJ :heart:

Oh, I've seen Wade run the inverted cover 2 (on one or both sides), but I don't think it makes sense here with the SAM Cushing already playing the strong hook.
Manning didn't even come downhill. Cushing dropped to right close to where Manning lined up originally.
Manning turned folowed the TE a few steps as the guy made his break, then realized (supposedly in cover 4) that he needs to get back deep.

It would also required KJ to get depth and more depth (especially against a fast receiver.)
If you put your DVR in slow motion, you can see that KJ didn't do this.

The fact that Kubiak said that "it wasn't even Jackson's play to make" (the post route) indicates to me that Jackson's primary tasks were the seam route, the go route and the corner route.

I think you need a stronger argument to go against those words of his.

Edit: You know I always consider your take very carefully!

76Texan
10-19-2011, 11:41 PM
he didn't. He was sprinting back with a full hip turn and not looking back to help. I think 76 has the sequence if he can provide the link again.

Jackson was looking back at the TE the whole time and as this guy made his cut to the outside.

In pattern matching, the CB has to be aware of the #2 receiver.

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:43 PM
Jackson was looking back at the TE the whole time and as this guy made his cut to the outside.

In pattern matching, the CB has to be aware of the #2 receiver.

If Jackson is supposed to pick up the TE then he failed miserably. You can't have it both ways. I think you are using a bunch of circular logic to be honest.

Rey
10-19-2011, 11:51 PM
I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).

Cover 4
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover4vsblackout.jpg

Cover 8
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/Cover8vsblackout.jpg

That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?

Vinny
10-19-2011, 11:54 PM
That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?those diagrams have one lb blizing, while everyone else was in zone. That's not what happened on that play. I'm getting out of the thread here. I think 76 is just trying too hard to show Jackson is a player.

Carr Bombed
10-20-2011, 12:14 AM
21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... :mcnugget: Why?

76Texan
10-20-2011, 12:25 AM
If Jackson is supposed to pick up the TE then he failed miserably. You can't have it both ways. I think you are using a bunch of circular logic to be honest.

No, when the SS gets back deep, that's when the SCB gets off onto the out route.

In the playbook, it clearly states that the CB has to key on both the #1 and the #2.
Whoever threatens him deep, that's his main concern.

Now you want to fault him for getting off his secondary task to save a TD?

IT WASN't EVEN HIS PLAY TO MAKE.

I don't see how much clearer Kubiak can put it!

76Texan
10-20-2011, 12:34 AM
That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?


I've already know that you can run a multitude of coverages out of a certain shell.

If it's so basic, why do I have to spend gazillions of hours reading diferent playbooks and defenses (with video examples on some) and try to match what happens on the playing field with theory and concept on other occasions.

I did say that on Boldin's 56yd catch, I can't be too positive about the coverage.

What you can try to tell me is what and how you think can apply to Kubiak's statement.

How is it that my analysis on this particular play doesn't match with theory?

76Texan
10-20-2011, 12:57 AM
those diagrams have one lb blizing, while everyone else was in zone. That's not what happened on that play. I'm getting out of the thread here. I think 76 is just trying too hard to show Jackson is a player.I just like to study plays, that's all. http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

The LB blitzing was the WILL Reed, which matches with the diagram.

The SAM Barwin and the MIKE Cushing were in zone match on the #2 and the #3.
The SAM took on the wide of the widest, which was the FB Leach.
The MiKE took the inside route.
The zones were only the first destinations.

Look at the sequence, the 3 LBs in coverage dropped into their zones first.
The most pronounced one was Barwin; he didn't jump on Leach until after he had dropped into his outside zone.
This way, if the TE runs a quick out to the flat, Barwin would have taken him on instead of the FB Leach.
If you follow the sequence tediously, you will see that Barwin looked back at the TE to make sure that he didn't run such a route.
If it was pure man, Barwin would never do that!!!

For the Mo, it was easy; his zone and his man match.
That's why it's called pattern matching (a zone that becomes man coverage quickly).

With Cushing, you can see that he was in zone (and forgot to match with his man, the #2).

If you say that Manning was supposed to be in man coverage on the TE, at least tell me what Cushing was supposed to do?

And what was Quin supposed to do as the FS?

Also, if Manning was supposed to be in "pure" man, he would have never gotten off the TE!

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 01:48 AM
21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... :mcnugget: Why?

It's pretty similar to the Chris Myers thread. 76 is more right than not. On this particular play, technically he's correct, but once the ball is snapped, you have to do what you've got to do. Manning screwed up, which changes Jackson's responsibilities.

We're playing that cover 4 to prevent a big play there. Jackson gave up a big play. He may have had help, but that doesn't exonerate him.

Lots of breakdowns on the right side of the field. Cushing, Manning & Jackson.

Take that 51 yarder out of the equation (the catch was questionable anyway) & Torrey Smith ends the night with 2 catches for 33 yards....... whoop!!

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 01:50 AM
No, when the SS gets back deep, that's when the SCB gets off onto the out route.

In the playbook, it clearly states that the CB has to key on both the #1 and the #2.
Whoever threatens him deep, that's his main concern.

Now you want to fault him for getting off his secondary task to save a TD?

IT WASN't EVEN HIS PLAY TO MAKE.

I don't see how much clearer Kubiak can put it!

Torrey Smith was the deep threat. You just said that is the CBs main concern. He failed.

steelbtexan
10-20-2011, 07:40 AM
21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... :mcnugget: Why?

Because if you say somebody doesn't suck long enough people will start to believe it.

Everything may not be KJ's fault. But he sure needs alot of help that apparently he never gets. LOL

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 07:52 AM
Everything may not be KJ's fault. But he sure needs alot of help that apparently he never gets. LOL

That's not true. Kj has been more good than bad since the season started. You didn't hear about him vs the Colts, or the Dolphins... even though the Dolphins put up 400 yards on McCourty & the Pats. You didn't see or hear from Kj in the New Orleans game outside of that one series in the 4th.

He had a knee injury & sat out against the Steelers. He wasn't 100% the following week & only suited up as an emergency relief vs Oakland. Jason Allen stepped in & you saw what you got there.

Versus Miami, he got picked on & beat up. Pittsburgh he made some plays, got an INT. Got another INT vs Oakland, but neither were because he was in "excellent" coverage. He overplayed both, staying on top of the receiver. The ball was overthrown & he went & got them. That's still better (as far as game changing plays on defense) than what Kj has done from that aspect, but as far as stopping receivers, Kj has been superior. Allen was picked on & gave up yards vs the Steelers, picked on & beat up vs Oakland, giving up lots of yards to Heyward-Bay & a TD.

Allen makes Kj look like a shutdown corner.

People need to forget about Kj's 2010 season, stop taking it personal that Smithiak didn't draft whoever you wanted them to draft, or whatever it is that makes them hate the man, because it isn't his play. In every game this year, he's played better than Dunta Robinson in his last two seasons here, but Dunta never got this kind of hate. Even after the pay-me-rick crap.

steelbtexan
10-20-2011, 08:08 AM
I dont hate KJ, he's just another below avg CB that Rick and Gary are letting play due to his draft status. KJ is just another sympton of what's wrong with the Texans organization.

76Texan
10-20-2011, 08:30 AM
Torrey Smith was the deep threat. You just said that is the CBs main concern. He failed.

If you like to put it that way.
But you also want to keep in mind that the deep threat means first of all "the threat in his zone", then you can expand it further if you like.

I prefer Kubiak's statement:
"It wans't even his play to make".

It means he MAKES the play;
he didn't fail the play.

In another word, after he had to make the initial reads as required by coverage, he started reacting to the action on the field; he then went into the post to cover up for somebody's else Failure.

Similar to the thread about the refs, the same thing applies here.
The action on the field is fast.
If you expect a safety to be able to help out on the CB all the time, it's not gonna happen.
And when the safety comes over, usually what you can hope for is a tackle, not a pass break up, unless the safety has good position or the QB made a "not-so-good" throw.
In this case, one can think of KJ as a safety (or almost).

76Texan
10-20-2011, 08:32 AM
I dont hate KJ, he's just another below avg CB that Rick and Gary are letting play due to his draft status. KJ is just another sympton of what's wrong with the Texans organization.

I know you rather have Patrick Peterson starting for us, right, Jay!?! :good:

b0ng
10-20-2011, 08:59 AM
Why is it that on a regular basis it appears that Kareem Jackson is simply not fast enough to keep up with whomever he is covering, or that he does not have enough speed to make up for mistakes in footwork or decision making to be able to cover these people? To me, Jackson just plays like a guy that you would not want as a starting CB (Jason Allen falls into the same category), what is it about Jackson's game that makes I, and probably other fans, feel this way?

El Tejano
10-20-2011, 08:59 AM
Where there's smoke there's fire and in Creamed Jackson's case, he has been burned so bad the smoke is coming off him.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 09:45 AM
I dont hate KJ, he's just another below avg CB that Rick and Gary are letting play due to his draft status. KJ is just another sympton of what's wrong with the Texans organization.

I don't think so. I think his play justifies him being on the field. He's not going to get any better on the sideline & his play so far has not cost us any games.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 09:48 AM
If you like to put it that way.
But you also want to keep in mind that the deep threat means first of all "the threat in his zone", then you can expand it further if you like.

I prefer Kubiak's statement:
"It wans't even his play to make".

It means he MAKES the play;
he didn't fail the play.

In another word, after he had to make the initial reads as required by coverage, he started reacting to the action on the field; he then went into the post to cover up for somebody's else Failure.


I understand & agree with what you're saying. But once that break down occurs & he recognizes it, he should have played it better. He made a play that saved a TD... I'm not denying that. But he is no hero here, with the cushion he was giving, there's no way Smith should have got past him.

beerlover
10-20-2011, 09:50 AM
It sounds like the very thing that should be helping him is also hurting him, can't win situation.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 09:50 AM
Why is it that on a regular basis it appears that Kareem Jackson is simply not fast enough to keep up with whomever he is covering, or that he does not have enough speed to make up for mistakes in footwork or decision making to be able to cover these people? To me, Jackson just plays like a guy that you would not want as a starting CB (Jason Allen falls into the same category), what is it about Jackson's game that makes I, and probably other fans, feel this way?

We lost three games.

List his break downs vs the Colts & Dolphins. List another breakdown vs Baltimore.

We've been losing so long, that every play, every mistake is critical. Once we start winning, we won't care about a player make one or two mistakes per game.

I'm actually surprised Manning & JJoseph haven't been getting hammered.

Yet.

steelbtexan
10-20-2011, 10:09 AM
I know you rather have Patrick Peterson starting for us, right, Jay!?! :good:

You are correct sir,

Both KJ and PP are playing at about the same level right now. (Poor)

I believe PP has much more potential due to his vastly superior athletic ability. If it doesn't work out for PP at Cb his size/speed/ball skills should allow PP to be an all pro S someday. IMHO

As of right now i'm giving you that PP hasn't done as well as I expected. But atleast he can still be a big time contributor on ST's. Where else does KJ contribute to the Texans other than sub par CB play.

BTw, even though we disagree on KJ, I appreciate all of the work you do breaking down film and I am looking forward to your work in next yrs mock draft section. It's very informative and should be a must read for mock drafters out there.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-20-2011, 10:41 AM
I don't think so. I think his play justifies him being on the field. He's not going to get any better on the sideline & his play so far has not cost us any games.



You must have missed the Saints game then.

thunderkyss
10-20-2011, 11:53 AM
You must have missed the Saints game then.

Other than that one drive..... what have I missed? What other plays did he screw up on?

For the record, there were like 3 slants in a row that were completed in front of him then the touchdown pass caught over him. Those are the plays I'm including in that one drive.

Outside of that one drive, Kj had a solid game against the Saints. We should expect better, I expect better. At the same time, I recognize he is not a shut down corner out of the box. He may be in time, but it won't happen if he is sitting on the sideline.

Not that Kj is Darrell Revis, or anything like it. But for comparison's sake, if you watched the Monday Night game, Revis had a poor series against Marshall.... several bad plays for sure.

Actually, Revis has been having a poor season all together. So one bad series against Brees is not bad for a player you expect to improve.

Carr Bombed
10-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Because if you say somebody doesn't suck long enough people will start to believe it.

Everything may not be KJ's fault. But he sure needs alot of help that apparently he never gets. LOL

Hmm...sounds like someone I used to waste my time on defending....(Vinny knows)...my name wasn't always "Carr Bombed".

Carr Bombed
10-20-2011, 11:29 PM
It's pretty similar to the Chris Myers thread. 76 is more right than not. On this particular play, technically he's correct, but once the ball is snapped, you have to do what you've got to do. Manning screwed up, which changes Jackson's responsibilities.

We're playing that cover 4 to prevent a big play there. Jackson gave up a big play. He may have had help, but that doesn't exonerate him.

Lots of breakdowns on the right side of the field. Cushing, Manning & Jackson.

Take that 51 yarder out of the equation (the catch was questionable anyway) & Torrey Smith ends the night with 2 catches for 33 yards....... whoop!!

LOL, this thread doesn't have anything to do with Chris Myers.


Kareem Jackson is a bust...when you're a Texan fan long enough they become easy to identify. I don't get where comparing Kareem Jackson to other struggling players helps his argument either?

Rey
10-21-2011, 05:59 AM
Not that Kj is Darrell Revis, or anything like it. But for comparison's sake, if you watched the Monday Night game, Revis had a poor series against Marshall.... several bad plays for sure.

Actually, Revis has been having a poor season all together. So one bad series against Brees is not bad for a player you expect to improve.

Tk, you do realize this makes you look crazy right?

I realize you said kj is not revis, but you went on to compare the two anyways.

Ummmmm, revis makes plays dude.

That seems to be what you and 76 are missing.

All corners get beat, some more than others. But what separates the good ones from the bad ones is playmaking ability. Kjax has not displayed any kind of playmaking ability since he has come into the league. Combine that with the fact that he is often picked on or roasted and what you have is a guy that is not good enough.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-21-2011, 07:07 AM
Pretty damning when the only thing you can compare KJ with is other player's failures rather than accomplishments.

thunderkyss
10-21-2011, 07:53 AM
Tk, you do realize this makes you look crazy right?

I realize you said kj is not revis, but you went on to compare the two anyways.

Ummmmm, revis makes plays dude.

That seems to be what you and 76 are missing.

All corners get beat, some more than others. But what separates the good ones from the bad ones is playmaking ability. Kjax has not displayed any kind of playmaking ability since he has come into the league. Combine that with the fact that he is often picked on or roasted and what you have is a guy that is not good enough.

I'm not missing that at all. I'm just waiting to see. I don't think Wade is being "forced" to start Kj. Even if that were the case, I think we would see more of Jason Allen if Wade thought he gave us a better option to win. JA didn't really even play vs Baltimore, & while Flacco isn't Brady or Rivers, he's probably the second best QB we've faced this year.

Trust me, I have no love for Kareem. I want the Texans to put the best 11 on the field come Sunday. So far this season, Wade thinks Kj belongs in that group. Judging by his defense's performance so far, you've got to give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

But the "plays" are going to come.

Rey
10-21-2011, 08:22 AM
I'm not missing that at all. I'm just waiting to see. I don't think Wade is being "forced" to start Kj. Even if that were the case, I think we would see more of Jason Allen if Wade thought he gave us a better option to win. JA didn't really even play vs Baltimore, & while Flacco isn't Brady or Rivers, he's probably the second best QB we've faced this year.

Trust me, I have no love for Kareem. I want the Texans to put the best 11 on the field come Sunday. So far this season, Wade thinks Kj belongs in that group. Judging by his defense's performance so far, you've got to give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

But the "plays" are going to come.

Did David Carr give us a better chance to win than Sage did?

Kareem is a first round pick...He's going to be given ample opprotunity to prove himself because no one wants to see a first round bust. Especially not Bob McNair and Kubiak.

If they thought Kareem was the shyt they wouldn't be platooning him with Jason Allen's sorry ass. C'mon, that has got to be a dead give away.

Kubiak didn't say that Kareem got the start and played more than Allen against Baltimore because he's "the better player" or because "he gives us the best chance to win"....He said "Baltimore is a physical team and Kareem is a physical player"....

For there to even be a discussion of whether or not Allen should play over Jackson is not a compliment.

The fact that you guys keep tearing down good players to show try to prove a point about Kareem is just silly IMO. And as other's have said I don't see how that helps Kareem's case...The fact that the only thing you can compare him to is other players f ups...

I don't want to call him a bust just yet, but he is teetering close to that line...

You are saying he is improving because for 75% of the game he isn't getting picked on...IMO, if you are a first round CB you need to be able to do more than "not getting picked on" for most of the game...

thunderkyss
10-21-2011, 08:45 AM
Did David Carr give us a better chance to win than Sage did?

Kareem is a first round pick...He's going to be given ample opprotunity to prove himself because no one wants to see a first round bust. Especially not Bob McNair and Kubiak.

The only reason I wanted Capers fired, was because he was McNair's yes man. He kept running Carr out there regardless. Kubiak would've benched Carr if Sage didn't break his thumb that season (I believe that, no doubt in my mind).

If they thought Kareem was the shyt they wouldn't be platooning him with Jason Allen's sorry ass. C'mon, that has got to be a dead give away.

Even in 2010, they said Kareem's biggest problem was staying focused.... he'd have some good series, then lose focus & have some bad series. Kj "improved" over the second half of 2010, because he was able to step back from the game & think about what he was doing.

Kubiak didn't say that Kareem got the start and played more than Allen against Baltimore because he's "the better player" or because "he gives us the best chance to win"....He said "Baltimore is a physical team and Kareem is a physical player"....

I never said he did. I said I believe Wade splits the Kj/Allen time by what he feels is best for the team.

For there to even be a discussion of whether or not Allen should play over Jackson is not a compliment.

If I had my way, Kj would be the nickel. But we didn't get another CB in the off-season who could play the 2nd spot. This is basically the same thing, except we've got a vet who can't hold down the #2 spot & is losing out to a Nickel Corner with serious talent issues.

The fact that you guys keep tearing down good players to show try to prove a point about Kareem is just silly IMO. And as other's have said I don't see how that helps Kareem's case...The fact that the only thing you can compare him to is other players f ups...

I'm just making the same point you were, every corner gets beat. Trying to keep that into perspective. I'm not saying Revis is not the best in the game. I'm not tearing his game apart. You're reading that into what I've posted.

I don't want to call him a bust just yet, but he is teetering close to that line...

You are saying he is improving because for 75% of the game he isn't getting picked on...IMO, if you are a first round CB you need to be able to do more than "not getting picked on" for most of the game...

I guess Joe Haden is a bust? I guess Kyle Wilson is a bust? I guess Devin McCourtey is a bust? or at least "teetering close to that line......"

I'm not a talent scout & I don't pretend to be. All I can do is make comparisons to other players. I'll compare him to the best, because that is the level I think he was drafted to play. I'll compare him to other DBs that were drafted in the same class, especially if we passed on those other guys, to gauge his development.

I'm not going to grade him in a vacuum, because that is an unwinnable position. If we're going to expect him to play a perfect game, when no one else plays a perfect game, he can't win.

:koolaid:

Rey
10-21-2011, 09:25 AM
I guess Joe Haden is a bust? I guess Kyle Wilson is a bust? I guess Devin McCourtey is a bust? or at least "teetering close to that line......":koolaid:

McCourtey at least has 1 good season under his belt where he made some plays for his team....

Haden has made some plays as well...He had 6 INT's and a sack last year...

Kyle Wilson is a guy that I spoke out against even before he was drafted...I did not like him and still don't care for him...He's not that good IMO...

But seriously, how can you compare Kareem to Haden and McCourty?...They've made more plays and gotten their hands on way more balls than Kareem..

I'm not going to grade him in a vacuum, because that is an unwinnable position. If we're going to expect him to play a perfect game, when no one else plays a perfect game, he can't win.


When you say stuff like this it makes me think you still aren't understanding what I'm saying.

No one expects anyone to play a perfect game. This isn't baseball.

What I do expect from a first round corner is some playmaking ability or really good coverage ability ala Carlos Rogers. So far Kareem has not shown either which is why you get a lot of people wanting to see more of Jason Allen. When he gets into the game he has shown that he can get some turnovers.


I understand that all corners get beat/make mistakes....BUT good corners make plays in between those times...

infantrycak
10-21-2011, 09:36 AM
Ummmmm, revis makes plays dude.

What plays are those dude? Revis has one more INT during KJ's tenure in the league. They had the same number of passes defended last year. Clearly I would rather have Revis but not sure what you are referring to as making plays.

Rey
10-21-2011, 10:25 AM
What plays are those dude? Revis has one more INT during KJ's tenure in the league. They had the same number of passes defended last year even though Revis played 3 less games and QB's would rather not throw at him. Clearly I would rather have Revis but not sure what you are referring to as making plays.

First I made a minor correction.

I was watching something on NFL network last night about Revis...They talked about his holdout last year and and how much the team missed him...

And Rex talked about how because he had made so many plays in the past, QB's had stopped testing him really. Even after his holdout and hamstring injuries They didn't even look his way much last year...Look at the tackling numbers....That indicates that a lot of passes weren't completed on him. The year before, he had 31 PD's and 6 INT's...

You're talking about KJ and Revis since they came into the league and I don't really get your point...KJ had more INT's than Revis last year...Revis played 3 less games...another way to look at it is that Revis has made more plays in 6 games than KJ has made since he's been in the league despite QB's not wanting to throw at him...


Revis had 0 picks last year...the only year besides his rookie year that he hasn't had at least 3 INT's....He already has 3 INT's this year despite the fact that QB's would rather not throw his way...

thunderkyss
10-21-2011, 10:42 AM
I'm not missing that at all. I'm just waiting to see.

Trust me, I have no love for Kareem. I want the Texans to put the best 11 on the field come Sunday. So far this season, Wade thinks Kj belongs in that group. Judging by his defense's performance so far, you've got to give Wade the benefit of the doubt.

But the "plays" are going to come.

That's really all I've got to say about that. Can't put it any clearer.

Vinny
10-21-2011, 10:44 AM
this thread reminds me of those old David Carr threads where people would rationalize his play as somehow good, and blame the problems on his supporting cast. Hilariously sad.

thunderkyss
10-21-2011, 11:32 AM
this thread reminds me of those old David Carr threads where people would rationalize his play as somehow good, and blame the problems on his supporting cast. Hilariously sad.

It reminds me of the Chris Meyers threads where people would state Chris isn't playing as bad as the fans perceive him to be. A few bad plays for sure that stick in our minds, but overall his play was much better than fan perception.




:koolaid:

Vinny
10-21-2011, 11:38 AM
It reminds me of the Chris Meyers threads where people would state Chris isn't playing as bad as the fans perceive him to be. A few bad plays for sure that stick in our minds, but overall his play was much better than fan perception.




:koolaid:Meyers didn't play well at first. It wasn't perception. The problem is when fans make up their minds and never change them despite evidence that a player has improved or gotten over injury, or cleaned up technique or whatever. Carr could clean up all the technique he wanted, but he was still Don Knotts in the pocket.

Carr Bombed
10-21-2011, 10:20 PM
It reminds me of the Chris Meyers threads where people would state Chris isn't playing as bad as the fans perceive him to be. A few bad plays for sure that stick in our minds, but overall his play was much better than fan perception.




:koolaid:

That's revisionist history...Chris Myers WAS playing that bad. He deserved all the criticism that he received early on, but kudos to him for stepping his game up/getting healthy or whatever he did. He's a capable starter now...doesn't change the fact that early on he was a liability in the middle and routinely lost 1 on 1 match ups.

The guy was a 6th round pick and was traded for a 6th round pick...he's a self made player who had to put in a lot of hard hard to get to where he's at today. Kareem Jackson is a former 1st round pick who has been given a free ride so far...that makes these two scenarios completely incomparable. They have nothing in common. As another former 1st round pick, the David Carr comparison is much more fitting. Or Travis Johnson or Amobi Okoye..which ever one you want to throw into that spot.

76Texan
10-22-2011, 12:36 AM
That's revisionist history...Chris Myers WAS playing that bad. He deserved all the criticism that he received early on, but kudos to him for stepping his game up/getting healthy or whatever he did. He's a capable starter now...doesn't change the fact that early on he was a liability in the middle and routinely lost 1 on 1 match ups.

The guy was a 6th round pick and was traded for a 6th round pick...he's a self made player who had to put in a lot of hard hard to get to where he's at today. Kareem Jackson is a former 1st round pick who has been given a free ride so far...that makes these two scenarios completely incomparable. They have nothing in common. As another former 1st round pick, the David Carr comparison is much more fitting. Or Travis Johnson or Amobi Okoye..which ever one you want to throw into that spot.


You wrote him (Myers) off, period.
You bombed!

Please don't try to rewrite anything.
Go back and reread your own posts!

76Texan
10-22-2011, 12:38 AM
this thread reminds me of those old David Carr threads where people would rationalize his play as somehow good, and blame the problems on his supporting cast. Hilariously sad.

I wasn't among those people!

thunderkyss
10-22-2011, 12:55 AM
I wasn't among those people!

Neither was I.

76Texan
10-22-2011, 01:43 AM
First I made a minor correction.

I was watching something on NFL network last night about Revis...They talked about his holdout last year and and how much the team missed him...

And Rex talked about how because he had made so many plays in the past, QB's had stopped testing him really. Even after his holdout and hamstring injuries They didn't even look his way much last year...Look at the tackling numbers....That indicates that a lot of passes weren't completed on him. The year before, he had 31 PD's and 6 INT's...

You're talking about KJ and Revis since they came into the league and I don't really get your point...KJ had more INT's than Revis last year...Revis played 3 less games...another way to look at it is that Revis has made more plays in 6 games than KJ has made since he's been in the league despite QB's not wanting to throw at him...


Revis had 0 picks last year...the only year besides his rookie year that he hasn't had at least 3 INT's....He already has 3 INT's this year despite the fact that QB's would rather not throw his way...Sorry Rey, you keep throwing out names only to find out you actually didn't watch hardly enough of their games!

One thing you must realize is that when a CB doesn't make the tackle on his man, it means that somebody else is doing it for him!

GNTLEWOLF
10-22-2011, 01:47 AM
I wasn't among those people!

Unfortunately, I was amoung those who believed in Carr. I didn't really see the light until after he was in carolina and couldn't beat out Delhome nor could he perform whe called on to back-up when Delhome was injured. I was wrong.

jtexas
10-22-2011, 11:01 AM
His coverage skills list him at 92/98 in ranking of corners. One notable name below him... Dunta Robinson. Thank god we didn't resign him.

Carr Bombed
10-22-2011, 08:15 PM
You wrote him (Myers) off, period.
You bombed!

Please don't try to rewrite anything.
Go back and reread your own posts!

I don't have to go back and read my posts, because I know exactly what I said...and yes I DID WRITE HIM OFF (as did the majority of this board). Now what does that have to do with revisionist history and acting like the guy was playing good football at that time?

Guess what, He was playing some REAL shitty football at the time and deserved to be "written off". I didn't "bomb" on anything...he simply succeeded, but what's the chance that lightning strikes twice? LOL, you better hope it does or it will be you who will "BOMB".

lol, I'll never feel ashamed or be upset if a Texan player "proves me wrong" (if I'm criticizing his crappy play), because it means MY TEAM improved and I'm always down with that. If it makes you feel better I hope to Christ that Kubiak and even Kareem Jackson prove me wrong as well. Don't see it happening, but I sure as hell hope so..because again, it means my team has a brighter future.

thunderkyss
10-22-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't have to go back and read my posts, because I know exactly what I said...and yes I DID WRITE HIM OFF (as did the majority of this board). Now what does that have to do with revisionist history and acting like the guy was playing good football at that time?

Guess what, He was playing some REAL shitty football at the time and deserved to be "written off". I didn't "bomb" on anything...he simply succeeded, but what's the chance that lightning strikes twice? LOL, you better hope it does or it will be you who will "BOMB".


Well, that's a possibility. That he was playing poorly then all of a sudden got better. OR, maybe you & everyone else on the board was wrong.

I've always argued (and it wasn't just me) that Chris Myers was doing what he was supposed to be doing & it was actually the pieces around him that needed improvement.

I remember taking a little slack, for suggesting that Chester Pitts was probably our worse lineman.

Maybe I was wrong, that could happen, & Chris just got better in that time, much better.

Truth be told he is playing better now than he has, but not by as much as what you & many others think.

So I'll give you that. Chris has gone from "not worthy of being on an NFL team" to "possible pro bowl/all pro candidate"

Back to Kareem. I don't believe he is playing as poorly as some are saying. Rey is probably most correct in saying it's his apparent lack of play-making ability that begs to question why he is starting.

I don't know that he'll ever be a pro-bowler or an all-pro. But soon, I believe he'll be earning his spot at CB2. Of course that means he'll have to get better, right now, his biggest weakness is consistency. Once he gets that settled, & the game slows down for him (because you can tell it's still a little too fast), then he'll start making plays.

:koolaid:

Carr Bombed
10-22-2011, 08:46 PM
Well, that's a possibility. That he was playing poorly then all of a sudden got better. OR, maybe you & everyone else on the board was wrong.

I've always argued (and it wasn't just me) that Chris Myers was doing what he was supposed to be doing & it was actually the pieces around him that needed improvement.

I remember taking a little slack, for suggesting that Chester Pitts was probably our worse lineman.

Maybe I was wrong, that could happen, & Chris just got better in that time, much better.

Truth be told he is playing better now than he has, but not by as much as what you & many others think.

So I'll give you that. Chris has gone from "not worthy of being on an NFL team" to "possible pro bowl/all pro candidate"

Back to Kareem. I don't believe he is playing as poorly as some are saying. Rey is probably most correct in saying it's his apparent lack of play-making ability that begs to question why he is starting.

I don't know that he'll ever be a pro-bowler or an all-pro. But soon, I believe he'll be earning his spot at CB2. Of course that means he'll have to get better, right now, his biggest weakness is consistency. Once he gets that settled, & the game slows down for him (because you can tell it's still a little too fast), then he'll start making plays.

:koolaid:

Whoa whoa buddy, pump the brakes lol :) While he has developed (and no he hasn't always played at his current level), he isn't close to the probowl and isn't remotely close to "all pro" status.

* And before you accuse me of being a hater, for argument sake, let's say I'm wrong about this too......guess who isn't wrong? Mr. Pouncey and Mr. Mangold...the two players Myers will have to beat out on a yearly basis in his own conference. Sorry, but I don't see that happening.

Rey
10-23-2011, 01:07 PM
Did Kareem get taken out of the line up after the first series?

I know he got beat, but dang.

jtexas
10-23-2011, 01:18 PM
Did Kareem get taken out of the line up after the first series?

I know he got beat, but dang.

We haven't seen any long pass plays completed so its safe to assume he isn't out there.

thunderkyss
10-23-2011, 01:32 PM
Did Kareem get taken out of the line up after the first series?

I know he got beat, but dang.
He got beat three times back to back to back. I know one of those was another play where allowing the reciver to get behind him was absolutely inexcusable. If he was benched, & I think he was, good call.

foo82
10-23-2011, 02:53 PM
Hm. I keep thinking Kareem would make a good Safety. He doesn't react well with his back to the ball, but man can he tackle well.

Allen made some plays, but he gave up a few as well. I just wish he had Kareems tackling abilities.

Wolf
10-23-2011, 02:55 PM
Most NFL ready corner .. Great agent he has

HJam72
10-23-2011, 02:56 PM
His agent should fire him. :mcnugget:

GP
10-23-2011, 02:57 PM
He got beat three times back to back to back. I know one of those was another play where allowing the reciver to get behind him was absolutely inexcusable. If he was benched, & I think he was, good call.

100% agree. He just does not have "the length" to be a CB.

Jason Allen can stride out and match WRs as they run down the field (that's the "length" I am talking about. KJ has no first burst, no make-up speed, and no ball awareness.

And I think I'm being fairly kind in staying objective. I could have said he plays like shit, he sucks, and he shouldn't be in a CB role at all...I could have said that, but I didn't. I am thinking it, but I won't say it.

GP
10-23-2011, 02:59 PM
Most NFL ready corner .. Great agent he has

Agent: "These are not the Cornerbacks you are looking for."

Gary Kubiak: "Rick, Frank, He's right...these AREN'T the Cornerbacks we are looking for."

:jedimindtricks:

76Texan
10-23-2011, 11:28 PM
He got beat three times back to back to back. I know one of those was another play where allowing the reciver to get behind him was absolutely inexcusable. If he was benched, & I think he was, good call.

That's not true, TK.
Jackson was targeted twice in that series.

On one of them, actually on both of them he was right there!
I will post the screen shots when I have some time.

Personally, I think the PI was iffy. Looks more like incidental contact to me.
Jackson had inside position; the receiver tried to step in front of him.
I don't think a receiver is allowed to do that.
When two guys are rubbing neck and one guy tries to step to one side over the other; I don't see how you can avoid contact.
But let go ahead and accept the PI, that's OK with me.

I just want to point out that the receiver did not get past KJ; it was the contact that gave him a little separation at the end.


KJ was in step with receiver on the other pass along the side line.
There was no chance for a completion.

Rey, IMO, you are grasping at straw when you said they pulled KJ because of that PI.

Overall, KJ played in more series and more snaps than Allen.

The three series Allen played in were the three longest drives for the Tacks (48, 20, and 66 yards.)

The 7 series KJ played in (not counting the last series where the Tacks gained 4 yards to run out the game), the Tacks gained 10 total yards.
If you want to add that 30 yard PI, it comes up to 40 yards total.

And no, Allen didn't defend that long pass on the seam route (with the safety defending the post route.) The receiver dropped that ball. Also, it wasn't the best pass Hasselbeck could have thrown; it was a little high over the shoulder pad (slightly underthrown where the receiver has to alligator-arm the catch instead of out front where the receiver can extend the arms to catch the ball away from his body.) This one could have easily been a 45-50 yard catch.
Allen was not credited for a pass defended, and rightfully so.

Compare with the 51yd catch to T. Smith in the Ravens game, this one is a much easier play to defend where the CB knows that he has deep safety help over the middle (the post route). All he has to worry about is the seam route and the corner route.

I haven't criticized Allen yet since the regular season started.
I don't call for him to be benched or pulled every time he had an underwhelming moment.
And I'm not going to start now; I will just let the play on the field justify Wade's decision on who to play.
(I'm seeing KJ continue to start and play more than Allen; it's not simply my opinion, it's what's been happening; KJ played in 8 series and 27 snaps; Allen played in 3 series and 21 snaps. Allen didn't register anything on the stat sheet; he could have two tackles, but he missed both.)

Rey
10-24-2011, 02:49 AM
That's not true, TK.
Jackson was targeted twice in that series.

On one of them, actually on both of them he was right there!
I will post the screen shots when I have some time.

Personally, I think the PI was iffy. Looks more like incidental contact to me.
Jackson had inside position; the receiver tried to step in front of him.
I don't think a receiver is allowed to do that.
When two guys are rubbing neck and one guy tries to step to one side over the other; I don't see how you can avoid contact.
But let go ahead and accept the PI, that's OK with me.

I just want to point out that the receiver did not get past KJ; it was the contact that gave him a little separation at the end.


KJ was in step with receiver on the other pass along the side line.
There was no chance for a completion.

Rey, IMO, you are grasping at straw when you said they pulled KJ because of that PI.

Overall, KJ played in more series and more snaps than Allen.

The three series Allen played in were the three longest drives for the Tacks (48, 20, and 66 yards.)

The 7 series KJ played in (not counting the last series where the Tacks gained 4 yards to run out the game), the Tacks gained 10 total yards.
If you want to add that 30 yard PI, it comes up to 40 yards total.

And no, Allen didn't defend that long pass on the seam route (with the safety defending the post route.) The receiver dropped that ball. Also, it wasn't the best pass Hasselbeck could have thrown; it was a little high over the shoulder pad (slightly underthrown where the receiver has to alligator-arm the catch instead of out front where the receiver can extend the arms to catch the ball away from his body.) This one could have easily been a 45-50 yard catch.
Allen was not credited for a pass defended, and rightfully so.

Compare with the 51yd catch to T. Smith in the Ravens game, this one is a much easier play to defend where the CB knows that he has deep safety help over the middle (the post route). All he has to worry about is the seam route and the corner route.

I haven't criticized Allen yet since the regular season started.
I don't call for him to be benched or pulled every time he had an underwhelming moment.
And I'm not going to start now; I will just let the play on the field justify Wade's decision on who to play.
(I'm seeing KJ continue to start and play more than Allen; it's not simply my opinion, it's what's been happening; KJ played in 8 series and 27 snaps; Allen played in 3 series and 21 snaps. Allen didn't register anything on the stat sheet; he could have two tackles, but he missed both.)

76, three things:

Go back and comprehend what I said. I never said anything about him getting pulled because of the penalty. You are grasping at straws.

2nd, Allen did defend the deep pass. The receiver dropped it because Allen was right on his back and grabbed his arm. You credit Kareem for "being close" but when Allen is making plays you belittle what he did.

Last, your kj stuff is getting a little creepy. How it's not obvious to you that he is a liability is kind of strange.

You tear Allen down and build Kareem up, yet Allen is taking more of kareem's snaps. That alone should be a big clue. If sorry ass Allen is taking some of your playing time, you're doing it wrong.

Mr teX
10-24-2011, 08:19 AM
I love ya 76, but this thread needs to die.

yesterday matt hasselbeck looked over, saw KJ & immediately went deep on him........... twice. Matt Freakin' Hasselbeck dude. It may as well have been Chad Pennington. That doesn't bode well for him.

The other thing is that he got pulled for Jason Allen & Brice McCain in spots...in which case McCain got a pick 6.

It's official, he's a bust & i look for him to last on this roster for probably 1 more year b4 they get the memo & release him.

Errant Hothy
10-24-2011, 08:51 AM
Hm. I keep thinking Kareem would make a good Safety. He doesn't react well with his back to the ball, but man can he tackle well.

Allen made some plays, but he gave up a few as well. I just wish he had Kareems tackling abilities.

I don't know if KJ would make a good safety or not, but I do know I'd rather see KJ playing safety than Keo. For all of his faults KJ is a better defender than Keo.

dinkatoid
10-24-2011, 09:13 AM
It's official, he's a bust & i look for him to last on this roster for probably 1 more year b4 they get the memo & release him.

I think this is a bit of an over reaction there. I know he has not been good, but there are a few things to consider. I am sure most of us can agree, last year did not do him any favors. I am not sure it was even a learning experience, as I feel he got sold out by bad coaching and left to flounder.

This is the first year (of his NFL career) he actually had a real coach try to improve him as a corner. For all practical purposes, he probably started this year worse than when he came into the NFL. However, he has shown the ability to play well in spurts, and tackle well, so there is hope. Every rookie will struggle, and after last season, I imagine Jackson has it worse than most rookies - they get to start with a clean slate, he has the nightmares of last season.

When Wade came in here, he talked about his Kareem's technique was not good at all, and they have been working on it I am sure. Maybe Wade can work his magic and make him a decent CB#2 in time. I personally am OK waiting till next season (when he has a full off season with the coaches) to see where he is and if he is still growing to pass any judgement on the situation.

That being said, I am not saying he is going to be our CB#2 of the future or that he is a good corner. All I am saying is that he has shown some improvement, and since we do not have much of a choice anyway, keep letting him see some game action.

Mr teX
10-24-2011, 09:27 AM
I think this is a bit of an over reaction there. I know he has not been good, but there are a few things to consider. I am sure most of us can agree, last year did not do him any favors. I am not sure it was even a learning experience, as I feel he got sold out by bad coaching and left to flounder.

This is the first year (of his NFL career) he actually had a real coach try to improve him as a corner. For all practical purposes, he probably started this year worse than when he came into the NFL. However, he has shown the ability to play well in spurts, and tackle well, so there is hope. Every rookie will struggle, and after last season, I imagine Jackson has it worse than most rookies - they get to start with a clean slate, he has the nightmares of last season.

When Wade came in here, he talked about his Kareem's technique was not good at all, and they have been working on it I am sure. Maybe Wade can work his magic and make him a decent CB#2 in time. I personally am OK waiting till next season (when he has a full off season with the coaches) to see where he is and if he is still growing to pass any judgement on the situation.

That being said, I am not saying he is going to be our CB#2 of the future or that he is a good corner. All I am saying is that he has shown some improvement, and since we do not have much of a choice anyway, keep letting him see some game action.

I expect to see Harris challenging him next year & if he shows any improvement i think KJ will be downgraded to special teams that year with Allen & Harris taking the majority of snaps at #2 cb. I think McCain has shown enough to warrant being our nickel guy from here on out.

Basically the only way i see him staying on this team past next year if they retain him for special teams, that's it.

thunderkyss
10-24-2011, 09:43 AM
I expect to see Harris challenging him next year & if he shows any improvement i think KJ will be downgraded to special teams that year with Allen & Harris taking the majority of snaps at #2 cb. I think McCain has shown enough to warrant being our nickel guy from here on out.

Basically the only way i see him staying on this team past next year if they retain him for special teams, that's it.

I bet no one will catch a ball on Kareem Jackson come week 11. He'll totally shut everybody down.

Shut down Corner baby, shut down corner.

:koolaid:

dinkatoid
10-24-2011, 09:47 AM
I bet no one will catch a ball on Kareem Jackson come week 11. He'll totally shut everybody down.

Shut down Corner baby, shut down corner.

:koolaid:

If he gets benched or injured, you will be correct!:kitten:

HTown2ATX
10-24-2011, 09:50 AM
I bet no one will catch a ball on Kareem Jackson come week 11. He'll totally shut everybody down.

Shut down Corner baby, shut down corner.

:koolaid:

http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/e/eb/ebb22674_not-sure-if-serious.jpg

BTW...I get that it is a BYE week....but still.....it's KJ dude.....he'll find a way to get burned.

KJ being burned and bum play calling by Kubes are typically 2 thing you can bank on.

76Texan
10-24-2011, 10:43 AM
Did Kareem get taken out of the line up after the first series?

I know he got beat, but dang.

So what exactly did you mean by this?
I am not sure I understand your comment there.

76Texan
10-24-2011, 10:56 AM
Allen did defend the deep pass. The receiver dropped it because Allen was right on his back and grabbed his arm. You credit Kareem for "being close" but when Allen is making plays you belittle what he did.



No, the ball bounced off the receiver before Allen got there.
Go rewatch it; Allen was beat on that play.
He was behind all the way until the receiver bobbled that ball.
A throw out front and/or slightly toward the inside and Allen would have no chance whatsoever.

We can give him credit for being close enough to prevent the receiver from recapturing the ball; but again, hoping for our CB to get lucky to defend a pass is not a good strategy.
I'm not tearing Allen down; I'm only describing what happened on the field.
You can say that Allen recovered and took opportunity of a poor pass and catch not to let the receiver has a chance at recapturing the ball; I would agree to that.

Remember that I gave Allen credit for the INTs (even though others like TK suggested that they were scheme related and that Allen was at the right place at the right time.)

76Texan
10-24-2011, 11:07 AM
Last, your kj stuff is getting a little creepy. How it's not obvious to you that he is a liability is kind of strange.

You tear Allen down and build Kareem up, yet Allen is taking more of kareem's snaps. That alone should be a big clue. If sorry ass Allen is taking some of your playing time, you're doing it wrong.

Obviously we have disagreement about KJ's ability.

But enough of he says, she says...

I will just continue to analyze the plays and let Wade decide on who to play and when.
You are certainly entitled to your own take, just like anybody and everybody.

Vinny
10-24-2011, 11:11 AM
Last, your kj stuff is getting a little creepy. How it's not obvious to you that he is a liability is kind of strange. 76 couldn't find a Jackson Fathead, so he pinned a piece of toast to the wall. When his Mother saw the toast, he told her the black parts weren't burned, it was supposed to be that way.

TwistedGnarl
10-24-2011, 11:12 AM
So what exactly did you mean by this?
I am not sure I understand your comment there.

Well then, you should probably write a three page long post defending Kareem Jackson's play.

Here's something that everyone but you seems to realize: KJ and Allen are both not very good. For each, their play ranges between terrible and mediocre. Every single time someone points out a play where Jackson performed terribly, you counter that with four pages of examples where Jackson's play was mediocre and Allen's play was terrible and count that as 'evidence' toward whatever point it is you are trying to make.

CB#2 is the weakest position on our defense and, SURPRISE, is occupied by the two weakest players on the defense. Needs to be upgraded. Move on.

HJam72
10-24-2011, 11:13 AM
KJ is a good corner....when he doesn't fall down....or almost fall down....which is rare...

76Texan
10-24-2011, 11:21 AM
I love ya 76, but this thread needs to die.

yesterday matt hasselbeck looked over, saw KJ & immediately went deep on him........... twice. Matt Freakin' Hasselbeck dude. It may as well have been Chad Pennington. That doesn't bode well for him.

The other thing is that he got pulled for Jason Allen & Brice McCain in spots...in which case McCain got a pick 6.

It's official, he's a bust & i look for him to last on this roster for probably 1 more year b4 they get the memo & release him.

Jackson played the first two series (5yd and 3yd drives for the Tacks), then Allen played the next two (48yd and 20yd drives), then KJ came back for the last series of the half (minus 3 yd.)

KJ then playd the first series of the second half (10yd).

So for a while there, it looks like Wade might have come back to each playing 2 series.

But then Allen took his turn on the next series, and the Tacks scored their lone TD on their longest drive of the day (66yd).

KJ played the rest of the way (4 more drives, including the last one where the Tacks merely run two plays while conceding the game.)

...
Now, you can say that the opposing QB tries to go after KJ.
You can also say that they didn't come back there (testing him deep) after a couple of tries.
One of those tries were well defended; and the other (I strongly suspect) was incidental contact and not a PI.

...

Another note when I went back and watched the games.
Allen was the one that the Texans send a safety over to help the most often.
In the off-season, I can show you all the screen shots of how the D line up on each play (I have most of them already, I just don't know if I have time to upload them to photobucket.)

76Texan
10-24-2011, 11:26 AM
Well then, you should probably write a three page long post defending Kareem Jackson's play.

Here's something that everyone but you seems to realize: KJ and Allen are both not very good. For each, their play ranges between terrible and mediocre. Every single time someone points out a play where Jackson performed terribly, you counter that with four pages of examples where Jackson's play was mediocre and Allen's play was terrible and count that as 'evidence' toward whatever point it is you are trying to make.

CB#2 is the weakest position on our defense and, SURPRISE, is occupied by the two weakest players on the defense. Needs to be upgraded. Move on.

Most everybody was wrong about Chris Myers.
I was among the minority to say that he was far from being the weak link on the O-line.
Just because the mass thinks a certain way doesn't make them right!

Hardly nobody gave Foster a chance as an UDFA to even make the team.
I was pretty much the lone supporter of his from the start.

The list goes on and on...

Vinny
10-24-2011, 11:36 AM
KJ is a good corner....when he doesn't fall down....or almost fall down....which is rare...
if you don't know what you are looking at, Kareem Jackson's play is fine.

Dutchrudder
10-24-2011, 11:38 AM
Most everybody was wrong about Chris Myers.
I was among the minority to say that he was far from being the weak link on the O-line.
Just because the mass thinks a certain way doesn't make them right!

Hardly nobody gave Foster a chance as an UDFA to even make the team.
I was pretty much the lone supporter of his from the start.

The list goes on and on...

^ True.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61234&highlight=arian

thunderkyss
10-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Most everybody was wrong about Chris Myers.
I was among the minority to say that he was far from being the weak link on the O-line.
Just because the mass thinks a certain way doesn't make them right!

I'll vouch for you on this one. People were saying a lot of things, & I think you, like me, began to study the games & see exactly why Kubiak kept trotting him out there. The answer was simple. He was the only one doing his job consistently well for much of his first two seasons here. It took time before everyone else fell in line. Now, the whole line looks purty damn good.


Hardly nobody gave Foster a chance as an UDFA to even make the team.
I was pretty much the lone supporter of his from the start.

I'm not going to be able to back this one up. Just about everyone wanted to see Foster instead of Chris Brown & Steve Slaton. If Jeremiah Johnson wasn't on IR, we'd have wanted to see him as well.

The list goes on and on...

There aren't many players that get the ire of Texans' fans like Myers & Kareem. The only others I can think of is Buchannon, Babin, TJ (who I tried to defend..), Okoye (who I also tried to defend), & Dunta (but if it weren't for the pay me Rick stuff, there would still be a lot of delusional fans thinking he deserves a pro bowl berth).

I was right on Dunta, the injury made it easier because he was never the same after that. The one thing he brought, he couldn't any more. I was wrong (evidently) on Babin, TJ, & Okoye (sort of, I never said he was a 1st round DT, but worthy of a playing time).

:koolaid:

foo82
10-24-2011, 11:47 AM
That's not true, TK.
Jackson was targeted twice in that series.

On one of them, actually on both of them he was right there!
I will post the screen shots when I have some time.

Personally, I think the PI was iffy. Looks more like incidental contact to me.
Jackson had inside position; the receiver tried to step in front of him.
I don't think a receiver is allowed to do that.
When two guys are rubbing neck and one guy tries to step to one side over the other; I don't see how you can avoid contact.
But let go ahead and accept the PI, that's OK with me.

I just want to point out that the receiver did not get past KJ; it was the contact that gave him a little separation at the end.


KJ was in step with receiver on the other pass along the side line.
There was no chance for a completion.

Rey, IMO, you are grasping at straw when you said they pulled KJ because of that PI.

Overall, KJ played in more series and more snaps than Allen.

The three series Allen played in were the three longest drives for the Tacks (48, 20, and 66 yards.)

The 7 series KJ played in (not counting the last series where the Tacks gained 4 yards to run out the game), the Tacks gained 10 total yards.
If you want to add that 30 yard PI, it comes up to 40 yards total.

And no, Allen didn't defend that long pass on the seam route (with the safety defending the post route.) The receiver dropped that ball. Also, it wasn't the best pass Hasselbeck could have thrown; it was a little high over the shoulder pad (slightly underthrown where the receiver has to alligator-arm the catch instead of out front where the receiver can extend the arms to catch the ball away from his body.) This one could have easily been a 45-50 yard catch.
Allen was not credited for a pass defended, and rightfully so.

Compare with the 51yd catch to T. Smith in the Ravens game, this one is a much easier play to defend where the CB knows that he has deep safety help over the middle (the post route). All he has to worry about is the seam route and the corner route.

I haven't criticized Allen yet since the regular season started.
I don't call for him to be benched or pulled every time he had an underwhelming moment.
And I'm not going to start now; I will just let the play on the field justify Wade's decision on who to play.
(I'm seeing KJ continue to start and play more than Allen; it's not simply my opinion, it's what's been happening; KJ played in 8 series and 27 snaps; Allen played in 3 series and 21 snaps. Allen didn't register anything on the stat sheet; he could have two tackles, but he missed both.)

I notice a lot of times, he's not exactly getting beat badly. It's just that he has almost no awareness of where the ball is at. Too often he is not able to disrupt the pass because he is too focused on the receiver.

foo82
10-24-2011, 11:52 AM
I love ya 76, but this thread needs to die.

yesterday matt hasselbeck looked over, saw KJ & immediately went deep on him........... twice. Matt Freakin' Hasselbeck dude. It may as well have been Chad Pennington. That doesn't bode well for him.

The other thing is that he got pulled for Jason Allen & Brice McCain in spots...in which case McCain got a pick 6.

It's official, he's a bust & i look for him to last on this roster for probably 1 more year b4 they get the memo & release him.

It's way too early for a corner to be labeled a bust.

Vinny
10-24-2011, 11:54 AM
It's way too early for a corner to be labeled a bust.
two years of awful play can be labeled as a player who isn't playing well however. Just because you don't want to call him a bust shouldn't make one live in a state of denial.

Rey
10-24-2011, 12:01 PM
So what exactly did you mean by this?
I am not sure I understand your comment there.

No, the ball bounced off the receiver before Allen got there.
Go rewatch it; Allen was beat on that play.
He was behind all the way until the receiver bobbled that ball.
A throw out front and/or slightly toward the inside and Allen would have no chance whatsoever.

We can give him credit for being close enough to prevent the receiver from recapturing the ball; but again, hoping for our CB to get lucky to defend a pass is not a good strategy.
I'm not tearing Allen down; I'm only describing what happened on the field.
You can say that Allen recovered and took opportunity of a poor pass and catch not to let the receiver has a chance at recapturing the ball; I would agree to that.

Remember that I gave Allen credit for the INTs (even though others like TK suggested that they were scheme related and that Allen was at the right place at the right time.)


My point was that you give credit to KJ for "being close", but when Allen is actually making physical contact with a receiver as he tries to haul in a pass you just give it the ol' "meh"...

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Allen+Houston+Texans+v+Tennessee+Titans+2_LD Xvq3eh0l.jpg

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Allen+Houston+Texans+v+Tennessee+Titans+zOB9 uLteIBAl.jpg

It took a really good throw and would have taken an eaually good catch...Allen was able to be enough of a disturbance to stop the completion...

I do not think Allen is a good player. He's not good really. BUT he is taking away snaps from Kareem...Doesn't speak well for Kjax...

thunderkyss
10-24-2011, 12:08 PM
I notice a lot of times, he's not exactly getting beat badly. It's just that he has almost no awareness of where the ball is at. Too often he is not able to disrupt the pass because he is too focused on the receiver.

He had a very bad rookie season & people are still holding that against him. His play has been much better this year, not starting #2 CB yet, but I think Wade believes he will get there.

76Texan
10-24-2011, 12:11 PM
My point was that you give credit to KJ for "being close", but when Allen is actually making physical contact with a receiver as he tries to haul in a pass you just give it the ol' "meh"...

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Allen+Houston+Texans+v+Tennessee+Titans+2_LD Xvq3eh0l.jpg

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Allen+Houston+Texans+v+Tennessee+Titans+zOB9 uLteIBAl.jpg

It took a really good throw and would have taken an eaually good catch...Allen was able to be enough of a disturbance to stop the completion...

I do not think Allen is a good player. He's not good really. BUT he is taking away snaps from Kareem...Doesn't speak well for Kjax...I don't think you're desperate, but why would you bring up pictures from a different game to defend this play.

18 Kenny Britt is currently injured and didn't play in the game.

The receiver who beat Allen was #17 D. Williams.
The ball actually bounced off William's shoulder pad; it was not a good throw at all.

dinkatoid
10-24-2011, 12:21 PM
I notice a lot of times, he's not exactly getting beat badly. It's just that he has almost no awareness of where the ball is at. Too often he is not able to disrupt the pass because he is too focused on the receiver.

Maybe his best friend growing up was Jacque Reeves who taught him everything he knows? I think I can fix this issue then. As suggested with Reeves, promote Jackson to team captain, so he gets a radio in his helmet. Then Wade can yell when to turn around

76Texan
10-24-2011, 12:26 PM
I notice a lot of times, he's not exactly getting beat badly. It's just that he has almost no awareness of where the ball is at. Too often he is not able to disrupt the pass because he is too focused on the receiver.

There are time to locate the ball, and there are time to play the earlobe/eyes of the receiver.

foo82
10-24-2011, 01:17 PM
two years of awful play can be labeled as a player who isn't playing well however. Just because you don't want to call him a bust shouldn't make one live in a state of denial.

seriously. How long would you say it takes most corners to acclimated to the NFL level? Most people would agree on 3 years. How long has it been so far?

1.5 years.

How can you label someone as a bust when it is barely half the time it takes to start showing your actual worth?

b0ng
10-24-2011, 01:22 PM
Most everybody was wrong about Chris Myers.
I was among the minority to say that he was far from being the weak link on the O-line.
Just because the mass thinks a certain way doesn't make them right!

Hardly nobody gave Foster a chance as an UDFA to even make the team.
I was pretty much the lone supporter of his from the start.

The list goes on and on...

None of this has any effect on whether Kareem Jackson is a bad corner. Mostly because Kareem Jackson is a bad corner, not if Chris Meyers is good at Center, or if Arian Foster was a good UDFA pickup.

EDIT: And Kareem still has no deep speed whatsoever. If a WR gets a step on Jackson, he will be open.

Rey
10-24-2011, 01:24 PM
I don't think you're desperate, but why would you bring up pictures from a different game to defend this play.

18 Kenny Britt is currently injured and didn't play in the game.

The receiver who beat Allen was #17 D. Williams.
The ball actually bounced off William's shoulder pad; it was not a good throw at all.

The picture I posted of Britt shows Allen getting burned so that was not in defense of Allen.

The website I went to had those two plays in sequence and I didn't think to check the jersey numbers...I just assumed it was the same play...

But the second picture clearly shows Allen Grabbing the recievers arms preventing any chance of a completion...Bobbled ball or otherwise...

But I am not here to defend Allen...He's not good overall...We need a real #2 corner and this defense will be exponentially better...

Hervoyel
10-24-2011, 01:24 PM
....and Kareem Jackson falls down.


Just seemed like it was about time for that.

HOU-TEX
10-24-2011, 01:40 PM
....and Kareem Jackson falls down.


Just seemed like it was about time for that.

.....and Allen trips over him while he's down..

Errant Hothy
10-24-2011, 02:38 PM
.....and Allen trips over him while he's down..

...Keo would have tripped over both of them, but he wasn't even in the same zip code as KJ and Allen...

HTown2ATX
10-24-2011, 02:42 PM
...Keo would have tripped over both of them, but he wasn't even in the same zip code as KJ and Allen...

Rep for adding Shilo....I was trying to think of a creative way to add him to the mix and you beat me to it.

HOU-TEX
10-24-2011, 02:48 PM
I kinda like Shilo. Obviously not for his cover ability at this stage, but he ain't scared to divvy up a few slobber-knockers. If his coverage can get a bit better he'd be a decent stop-gap until Manning's able to play again.

Errant Hothy
10-24-2011, 02:59 PM
I kinda like Shilo. Obviously not for his cover ability at this stage, but he ain't scared to divvy up a few slobber-knockers. If his coverage can get a bit better he'd be a decent stop-gap until Manning's able to play again.

KJ is a better tackler than Keo, by a factor of atleast 10. Remember all of the whiffs he has in the preseason? Keo tries to make the highlight hit all the time instead of just making the tackle. Safeties and corners cannot risk missing tackles.

Nobody in the secondary scares me more than Keo.

HOU-TEX
10-24-2011, 03:07 PM
KJ is a better tackler than Keo, by a factor of atleast 10. Remember all of the whiffs he has in the preseason? Keo tries to make the highlight hit all the time instead of just making the tackle. Safeties and corners cannot risk missing tackles.

Nobody in the secondary scares me more than Keo.

True, he did have a rough preseason. I still like how agressive he plays and I can only assume he'll get better.

Oh, there's no doubt he's the scariest one in the secondary now. No argument there.

EllisUnit
10-24-2011, 03:25 PM
will this thread ever die ? KJ sucks, he flat out sucks, SURE he has played better than last season BUT we have had more pressure. i have still seen him get beaten just as badly, thank god Manning and Quin have been back there to stop the play.