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View Full Version : Grantland: Of Top 25 WORST players, Okoye 22nd, KJ 6th


GP
07-12-2011, 10:05 PM
Okoye and Jackson make the Top 25 Most Worthless list (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/589/the-25-least-valuable-players-in-the-nfl), which is based on the author's conceptual stats of playing time, expectations, and salary.

So, here we go … This list of the 25 worst players in the league accounts for playing time, expectations, and salary. It focuses on the 2010 season without forgetting about those who sucked in 2008 and 2009; in other words, C.C. Brown, you can't hide in Detroit.

25. Laurence Maroney, running back, free agent
24. Dimitri Patterson, cornerback, Eagles
23. Aaron Maybin, linebacker, Bills
22. Amobi Okoye, defensive tackle, Texans
21. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, wide receiver, Ravens

Maroney spent most of his time in New England on the training table or working on his dreads, but the Broncos still dealt a fourth-round pick (getting a sixth-rounder in return) for a guy who promptly gained 74 yards on 36 carries. Then he got arrested for marijuana possession after a Rick Ross concert, which would only have been worse if Rick Ross actually made the arrest.

Patterson was a last resort at cornerback forced into action by injuries; teams avoided Asante Samuel and spent the second half throwing at the guy who the Philadelphia Inquirer politely noted " … is better suited to special teams.” … The 11th overall pick in the 2009 draft, Maybin was supposed to be a hybrid pass rusher who could play in a 3-4 or a 4-3. He's got zero sacks, was a healthy scratch at times in 2010, and the first entry that comes up as an auto-fill when you type his name into Google is "Aaron Maybin bust." … Okoye, the league's youngest draftee at age 19 in 2007, was supposed to form the core of a great defensive line alongside Mario Williams. Williams became a great pass-rusher, but Okoye's still all athleticism and promise. … In addition to this inexplicable drop in the playoff loss to the Steelers, Houshmandzadeh could only catch 53 percent of the passes thrown to him despite running some of the shortest routes in the league. And the Seahawks paid him virtually all of his $7 million in guaranteed salary to go away.

And....

10. Darius Butler, cornerback, Patriots
9. Jeremy Trueblood, offensive tackle, Buccaneers
8. Levi Brown, offensive tackle, Cardinals
7. David Jones, cornerback, Jaguars
6. Kareem Jackson, cornerback, Texans

Butler began the season as a starter by allowing teams to go 26-of-35 for 253 yards in two games against him (plus two pass interference calls). He got benched and came in for three plays the following game, allowing a completion and missing a tackle before disappearing again. It took him six weeks to get any playing time after that. … Trueblood consistently ranked among the league leaders in sacks allowed at right tackle, but the Bucs finally wised-up and benched him after an injury last season. … The Cardinals had no such luck with Brown, who made it through all 16 games. One comment upon close observation of Brown: " struggled with outside rushers all day, which is a problem considering he's an offensive tackle." … The Jaguars benched struggling corner Derek Cox for Jones after a poor start. Jones promptly helped Reggie Wayne to a 15-catch, 196-yard game. The Jags stuck with him for several more terrible performances before making him a healthy scratch for the second half of the season. … [B]Even the best cornerbacks usually look pretty bad as rookies, but Jackson allowed a league-worst 11.1 yards per pass attempt last season. If there's ever a Sporcle quiz on matching a receiver's name to the back of his jersey, Jackson will ace it.

Ouch.

badboy
07-12-2011, 10:12 PM
I would like to argue but won't. I think KJ can turn it around if he is open to coaching.

DocBar
07-12-2011, 10:25 PM
"5. C.C. Brown, safety, Lions

"Can't Cover" Brown blamed the media for his midseason benching in New York in 2009; it apparently caused the Lions to do the same thing in 2010"
I find it hard to believe there are actually expectations for CC Brown in the NFL.

13. Jimmy Clausen, quarterback, Panthers

Only five second-rounders since the merger have thrown as many attempts as Clausen did as a rookie. They were bad, but even the Tony Bankses and Charlie Batchs of the world didn’t throw three interceptions for every touchdown like Clausen did.Clausen sure is getting thrown under the bus. The guy was a rookie on a BAD football team. I think this is a bit premature.

GP
07-12-2011, 10:29 PM
I find it hard to believe there are actually expectations for CC Brown in the NFL.

LOL.

So true.

76Texan
07-12-2011, 10:35 PM
For those who love stats, this one has Jason Allen worse than Kareem Jackson:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defteamyear.php?year=2010&team=HST

DX-TEX
07-13-2011, 01:39 AM
For those who love stats, this one has Jason Allen worse than Kareem Jackson:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defteamyear.php?year=2010&team=HST

Jason Allen doesnt fall down as much.

+1

Lucky
07-13-2011, 06:37 AM
For those who love stats, this one has Jason Allen worse than Kareem Jackson:

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defteamyear.php?year=2010&team=HST
Care to explain how any of these "stats" are relevant? They have Revis as the 58th ranked corner in the league and Asomugha ranked below Kareem Jackson.

ThaShark316
07-13-2011, 08:47 AM
Can't take a list serious that has 2nd and 3rd year players on it.

powda
07-13-2011, 09:41 AM
Can't take a list serious that has 2nd and 3rd year players on it.

If they start or see signifigant time they should make the list...

I wonder where Zac Diles would be on that list? I've been rewatching last years games lately and he was absolutley miserable in coverage. Eugene Wilson deseves to be top 10 on the list as well.

Goatcheese
07-13-2011, 03:53 PM
K-Burnt was pretty terrible, giving up 50 receptions for 920 yards. Glover Quin should be on the list also after giving up 59 receptions for 801 yards.

I don't get putting Okoye on there though. He's been top 5 among DTs in QB pressures since entering the league. Last year he got to the QB 3 times and managed to get his hands on him another 10. Solid numbers for a DT. He's not great, but at worst I would call him average and he still has the better half of a decade before he reaches his full potential.

76Texan
07-14-2011, 12:23 AM
Care to explain how any of these "stats" are relevant? They have Revis as the 58th ranked corner in the league and Asomugha ranked below Kareem Jackson.

Come on Lucky, you're among those who like stats or use stats to make certain assumptions (not that I discount the game watching.)
Certainly, you can make sense out of all the stats that are put out there!
You can't have it both ways.
If anything, you and EU should explain those stats to me.

But I do have some "explanations" for those stats that you deem "irrelevant".
You know like INT, FF, TFL... things that either turn over the ball back to the offense or make it harder for the other team to advance.
And the Tackle Factor category, you know, if you stop the other team from converting a third down with a tackle that stop them short.
There's also the penalties that help the other team to advance, you know, like PI or a 5-yd defensive Holding when a CB get beat.)

Also, since he wasn't targeted much, Asomugha's numbers can be easily skewed by a small numbers of "bad" plays (and there were those for him last year - I actually watched about half a dozen of them.)

Revis had a poor game against us and I believe he was injured for a while as well.
Doesn't surprise me he wasn't on top of his game.

Lucky
07-14-2011, 06:07 AM
If anything, you and EU should explain those stats to me.
OK, I will. It's a bunch of crap. In your insatiable desire to find anything (relatively) good about about Jackson, you posted this gobbledygook. Glover Quin? Better than Revis, according to your source. Jason Allen (the Dolphin version)? Better than Revis. Why you continue to ride Kareem's jock and post this inane stuff is mystifying.

But, thanks for sharing.

powda
07-14-2011, 07:21 AM
Thanks for the new sig Lucky.

GP
07-14-2011, 11:03 AM
OK, I will. It's a bunch of crap. In your insatiable desire to find anything (relatively) good about about Jackson, you posted this gobbledygook. Glover Quin? Better than Revis, according to your source. Jason Allen (the Dolphin version)? Better than Revis. Why you continue to ride Kareem's jock and post this inane stuff is mystifying.

But, thanks for sharing.

So the stats show that our guys are actually BETTER than Revis?

This is fun! Our record was actually 12-4, AND we won the Super Bowl too!

Fantasies are awesome.

76Texan
07-14-2011, 11:18 AM
OK, I will. It's a bunch of crap. In your insatiable desire to find anything (relatively) good about about Jackson, you posted this gobbledygook. Glover Quin? Better than Revis, according to your source. Jason Allen (the Dolphin version)? Better than Revis. Why you continue to ride Kareem's jock and post this inane stuff is mystifying.

But, thanks for sharing.

It's strange that you guys use some stats (from Football Outsiders) to put down Jackson and then disregard other stats (AdvancedNFLStats) which incorporate other factors involving a player's performance.

You fail to explain to me why a combine stats of the followings is not a decent way to look at how a player perform::
1. Success rate (how a player defend a pass) as well as Pass Defended.
2. Tackle Factor (how a player stop an offensive player to gain yardage) plus tackle for loss.
3. Sack, QB Hits, Forced Fumble, INts (these should be obvious.)

76Texan
07-14-2011, 11:32 AM
Let's compare Revis and Quin:

Revis Quin
Success Rate 38.3% 37%
Pass Defended 11 14
INTs 0 3
These two numbers show two CB relative close to one another defending the pass; however, Quin had 3 INTs to Revis' none.
The advantage here should belong to Quin, I don't see how you can dispute otherwise (based on numbers, of course.)

Revis Quin
Tackles 36 71
Assists 11 14
TFL 0 3
Sacks 0 1
QB Hits 0 1
Forced Fumble 0 1
All the zeroes for Revis cerntainly can't compare with the positives that Quin had.

Why is it difficult to rank Quin higher than Revis based on those numbers?

76Texan
07-14-2011, 11:53 AM
Even the site that yoiu guys prefer (Football Outsiders) ranked Quin (35) higher than Revis (52).

Why don't you guys go and have a beef with them now.
Maybe all of their stats (that you've been believing in) are also gobbledygook!

Talking about insanity!
:wadepalm:

HOU-TEX
07-14-2011, 11:59 AM
Screw the stats. It comes down to which one would you rather have starting at CB for your team. To me, and likely everyone else, Revis would be the better option. Why would Quin be moving to FS if he was such an awesome CB?

Dumb comparison, imo. These damn lockout threads are getting worse every day

76Texan
07-14-2011, 12:06 PM
Screw the stats. It comes down to which one would you rather have starting at CB for your team. To me, and likely everyone else, Revis would be the better option. Why would Quin be moving to FS if he was such an awesome CB?

Dumb comparison, imo. These damn lockout threads are getting worse every day

This is what I've been saying all along!

I only play along with the numbers because these folks seem to like them!

Lucky
07-14-2011, 05:46 PM
Even the site that yoiu guys prefer (Football Outsiders) ranked Quin (35) higher than Revis (52).
Link?

This is what I've been saying all along!

What you've been saying all along is that Kareem Jackson did not suck, but was actually good. And you keep posting stuff that implies that. Sorry, but any Texans fan with a byte of memory will tell you that's BS.

EllisUnit
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
It's strange that you guys use some stats (from Football Outsiders) to put down Jackson and then disregard other stats (AdvancedNFLStats) which incorporate other factors involving a player's performance.

You fail to explain to me why a combine stats of the followings is not a decent way to look at how a player perform::
1. Success rate (how a player defend a pass) as well as Pass Defended.
2. Tackle Factor (how a player stop an offensive player to gain yardage) plus tackle for loss.
3. Sack, QB Hits, Forced Fumble, INts (these should be obvious.)

First off u wanted stats. i could care less about stats. Have anybody sit down and watch all the Texans games and after words ask them who was the worst player on our team, without all these "stats" and we all know who they will say. Its not hard to see. There is so many stats people can put together and twist that i rarely look at stats. All my opinions on Jackson come from watching the games. And i think we can all agree he was the weak link in our secondary last season.

76Texan
07-14-2011, 10:10 PM
First off u wanted stats. i could care less about stats. Have anybody sit down and watch all the Texans games and after words ask them who was the worst player on our team, without all these "stats" and we all know who they will say. Its not hard to see. There is so many stats people can put together and twist that i rarely look at stats. All my opinions on Jackson come from watching the games. And i think we can all agree he was the weak link in our secondary last season.

Dude, you're just like 'em politicians!
You just said a while ago that you would lay it to rest with 'em stats and now you go back on whatever you said!
But I don't need to get into a war of words with you, so whatever rock your boat, have fun with it, man!

76Texan
07-14-2011, 10:27 PM
Link?


What you've been saying all along is that Kareem Jackson did not suck, but was actually good. And you keep posting stuff that implies that. Sorry, but any Texans fan with a byte of memory will tell you that's BS.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/22202/glover-quin

Go to the player search page to look for the rest.

You can find that Jackson was ranked 85.
Jason Allen was ranked 79.

For a 5th year veteran, I would think the term "suck" applies much better for Allen.

I will resume my game analysis soon.
I'm pretty much done with all the games.
And I'll ne sure to have some screen shots so people don't have to take my words for anything.
They can see for themselves.

TimeKiller
07-15-2011, 04:28 PM
Weren't all 3 of Quin's INTs against the legend formerly known as Rusty "Crusty" Smith?

That's why that stat doesn't matter.

Second Honeymoon
07-15-2011, 04:56 PM
Clausen sure is getting thrown under the bus. The guy was a rookie on a BAD football team. I think this is a bit premature.

agreed, docbar

i will say that it speaks volumes on Carolina's opinion of Clausen in that they spent #1 overall pick on his replacement after one season.

Newton will get every chance to fail ala Carr and I think its a good chance he fails. Vince was (at least as good as) a better college QB than Newton and look how tough of a time Vince has had in the NFL.

EllisUnit
07-15-2011, 08:23 PM
Dude, you're just like 'em politicians!
You just said a while ago that you would lay it to rest with 'em stats and now you go back on whatever you said!
But I don't need to get into a war of words with you, so whatever rock your boat, have fun with it, man!

Yes i did say that because u kept saying "prove it" you wanted stats so thats what i did. All i know is that last season jackson was SORRY as hell. Plain and simple. Could he be the next D. Revis, sure but was he even CLOSE last year ??? NO.

76Texan
07-15-2011, 10:57 PM
QUOTE=EllisUnit;1724783]Yes i did say that because u kept saying "prove it" you wanted stats so thats what i did. All i know is that last season jackson was SORRY as hell. Plain and simple. Could he be the next D. Revis, sure but was he even CLOSE last year ??? NO.[/QUOTE]

No dude, why do you always go misreading people.
I'm among the last guys (if not the last) on earth to want stats about football the way it is collected right now.

Never mind; and again, it's nothing personal.
There's no use in getting into a war of words.

At least I know you're quite enthusiatic about football.

But if you're up to it, prove it to me with your observations that Kareem Jackson sucked, espcecially as compared to Jason Allen.

EllisUnit
07-16-2011, 02:16 PM
QUOTE=EllisUnit;1724783]Yes i did say that because u kept saying "prove it" you wanted stats so thats what i did. All i know is that last season jackson was SORRY as hell. Plain and simple. Could he be the next D. Revis, sure but was he even CLOSE last year ??? NO.

No dude, why do you always go misreading people.
I'm among the last guys (if not the last) on earth to want stats about football the way it is collected right now.

Never mind; and again, it's nothing personal.
There's no use in getting into a war of words.

At least I know you're quite enthusiatic about football.

But if you're up to it, prove it to me with your observations that Kareem Jackson sucked, espcecially as compared to Jason Allen.


Ok seriously. You think K.J played better than Allen last season. I think ur one of the only people i have seen actually say that. I have seen you try to say he wasnt as bad as he seemed, and thats fine, but to now say he was better than allen. thats crazy. Set down for a second watch ALL the games again with an open mind and "maybe" you will see it. I love the fact that you believe in K.J and i hope he turns into a solid #1 CB. But as for last season he was easily the worst CB on our team. You cant tell me that 98% of us on here are wrong, we watched the same games you did. And most agree he was terrible last season.

devo-x
07-16-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm not sure that Kareem Jackson was the worst CB on the Texans last year? He was a rookie thrust into the starting CB role - I tend to put most of the 'blame' on the two Safeties that were both released after the end of the season.

EllisUnit
07-17-2011, 09:50 AM
I'm not sure that Kareem Jackson was the worst CB on the Texans last year? He was a rookie thrust into the starting CB role - I tend to put most of the 'blame' on the two Safeties that were both released after the end of the season.

I cant do that. Sure they sucked but K. Jackson sucked so bad last season he would FAIL at his job and then it was the safties fault, no if he had done his job it wouldnt of been put on the shoulders of our safties. Just think when D-Rob was here Pollard was a whole different player, he leaves and bam. It is what it is.

badboy
07-17-2011, 11:46 PM
How about let's focus on 2011. KJ is our guy. Let's kep hoping he will improve as I have posted on numerous threads. Let's have some football!

Allstar
07-17-2011, 11:48 PM
How about let's focus on 2011. KJ is our guy. Let's kep hoping he will improve as I have posted on numerous threads. Let's have some football!

Well he certainly can't get any worse...

pirbroke
07-18-2011, 08:32 AM
speaking of Okoye a little update.



He underwent arthroscopic knee surgery this past winter, after visiting Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham on Friday, Okoye reported the knee is healing right on schedule. If camp were to open this week, Okoye could participate fully in drills except those on artificial turf, which puts greater strain on the joint.

When NFL does resume business, a signficant transition is in store for Okoye. He's been a defensive tackle for the 4-3 defense, but the Texans are switching to a 3-4 front. Okoye has slimmed down enough to make the transition to defensive end, or a number of teams in need of tackles for their 4-3 scheme might make trade offers to Houston.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/07/mathis_okoye_eager_to_get_back.html

HOU-TEX
07-18-2011, 08:51 AM
speaking of Okoye a little update.



He underwent arthroscopic knee surgery this past winter, after visiting Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham on Friday, Okoye reported the knee is healing right on schedule. If camp were to open this week, Okoye could participate fully in drills except those on artificial turf, which puts greater strain on the joint.

When NFL does resume business, a signficant transition is in store for Okoye. He's been a defensive tackle for the 4-3 defense, but the Texans are switching to a 3-4 front. Okoye has slimmed down enough to make the transition to defensive end, or a number of teams in need of tackles for their 4-3 scheme might make trade offers to Houston.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/07/mathis_okoye_eager_to_get_back.html

:thinking: Did he not slim down last season for a 4-3 DT? He wanted to get to the weight he played in college and play quicker. How'd that work out?

IMO, we should play him a crap load this pre-season and sell him to the highest bidder. If not, he's nothing more than depth at this point.

pirbroke
07-18-2011, 09:03 AM
:thinking: Did he not slim down last season for a 4-3 DT? He wanted to get to the weight he played in college and play quicker. How'd that work out?

IMO, we should play him a crap load this pre-season and sell him to the highest bidder. If not, he's nothing more than depth at this point.

good point, I forgot about that. and when did he hurt his knee and did that contribute toward his lack of making plays last year. you know much about this CloakNNNdagger? could use some medical views.

Second Honeymoon
07-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Anything we get out of Okoye is a bonus at this point. We can't expect anything from him at all. Maybe Wade and his crew can light a fire, but that isn't exactly his strong suit. Maybe someone should send this link to Okoye's FB account so he can see how bad things have gotten. This was basically a most overpaid/overplayed list. He is both. Man up, dude. You suck right about now.

As for KJ, he sucked and to say he didn't play worse than Jason Allen is ridiculous. KJ was awful. Woefully awful. Historically awful. Yet still got on the field in the Texans' infinite wisdom. That boat has sailed. Kareem Jackson sucked last year. No spin can change that. Its what he does about it this year in 2012 that is the real question. He's not a bad football player, he just isn't an NFL quality professional football player....yet.

If he is happy with where he is as pro, he will probably never see the field after this year. If he does something about it, we could have a solid CB for the next 8-10 years. Its really that simple. It's on him. After all, Bush was a pathetic defensive co-ordinator so maybe he can excel under proven and respected defensive coaching. Something we haven't had since Kubiak got here.

The season is getting closer and this year is going to be like the Wild West. Teams scramblinng to put together the best team. Rules changing and morphing.

DocBar
07-18-2011, 01:13 PM
good point, I forgot about that. and when did he hurt his knee and did that contribute toward his lack of making plays last year. you know much about this CloakNNNdagger? could use some medical views.What would his excuse be for extreme suckage in '08 and '09? I guess I shouldn't use the term extreme suckage. He hasn't played up to his draft position. He's a decent enough DT, just not the playmaker we expect for being such a high pick.

CloakNNNdagger
07-21-2011, 11:03 AM
PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/21/16-defenders-who-could-be-cut-before-the-season/) names 16 players who could be cut before the season:

7. Amobi Okoye, Texans DL: He doesn’t fit Wade Phillips’ defense no matter what the Texans say. Only 24, another team will give a chance to this top-10 pick. We doubt anyone will trade for him.

GP
07-21-2011, 12:11 PM
Anything we get out of Okoye is a bonus at this point. We can't expect anything from him at all. Maybe Wade and his crew can light a fire, but that isn't exactly his strong suit. Maybe someone should send this link to Okoye's FB account so he can see how bad things have gotten. This was basically a most overpaid/overplayed list. He is both. Man up, dude. You suck right about now.

As for KJ, he sucked and to say he didn't play worse than Jason Allen is ridiculous. KJ was awful. Woefully awful. Historically awful. Yet still got on the field in the Texans' infinite wisdom. That boat has sailed. Kareem Jackson sucked last year. No spin can change that. Its what he does about it this year in 2012 that is the real question. He's not a bad football player, he just isn't an NFL quality professional football player....yet.

If he is happy with where he is as pro, he will probably never see the field after this year. If he does something about it, we could have a solid CB for the next 8-10 years. Its really that simple. It's on him. After all, Bush was a pathetic defensive co-ordinator so maybe he can excel under proven and respected defensive coaching. Something we haven't had since Kubiak got here.

The season is getting closer and this year is going to be like the Wild West. Teams scramblinng to put together the best team. Rules changing and morphing.

A genuine owner would man-up and admit that his GM, HC, and DC had all three royally screwed up in terms of drafting defensive talent for the past 5+ years.

The owner would take this golden opportunity being presented, via what some have reported will be a "no cap" year, and BUY the free agents who have proven to be at least adequate, if not spectacular, on defense for other teams. Just admit your failings and re-purchase new goods.

I can't wait to see what happens. Either McNair will pony up the dough and right the wrongs, or he will skimp out and punk our asses. Either McNair has been pulling a rope-a-dope for a long time, or he's just as mediocre and bland as some of us have envisioned him being. Clock is almost to midnight.