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View Full Version : Is Joseph a better signing than Asomugha?


cland
07-08-2011, 01:40 AM
One of the common misconceptions I see around the forums--typically in the "Bob McNair is so cheap..." type comments--seems to suggest that team salary is unlimited and that any aversion towards signing a free agent is because the owner wants to stuff more money in his pockets.

In reality the total amount of salary a team commits to one position, comes out of the pool for all other positions. This is one of the reasons smart drafting teams do so well...a star player selected from halfway through the first round and down works cheap.

So if you agree with all that, then I'll get on to my point. Darell Revis's latest contract pays him roughly 16 Million (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/06/revis-deal-pays-out-1625-million-per-year-over-first-two-years/) per year, so we'll put Nnamdi at that price. Jonathan Joseph's agent is quoted as saying that he's looking for 8 Million (http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/1/2254119/john-clayton-johnathan-joseph-could-be-signed-for-around-8-million-a) a year in his new contract.

So if you extrapolate a bit, would you rather have a pair of corners featuring Nnamdi / Kareem (assuming KJ works for 0) or Joseph / Joseph; in this hypothetical they both cost 16 million per year.

Looking into the future, Jonathan also has age on his side as he's 3 years younger than Nnamdi. If you look at a five year contract, 3 years from now you can see the difference between signing a player that is towards the end of their prime (30), and one who's just started it (27).

I'm as impatient as anyone and would do a happy dance with either one, but what else do we have to talk about?

DocBar
07-08-2011, 02:56 AM
One of the common misconceptions I see around the forums--typically in the "Bob McNair is so cheap..." type comments--seems to suggest that team salary is unlimited and that any aversion towards signing a free agent is because the owner wants to stuff more money in his pockets.

In reality the total amount of salary a team commits to one position, comes out of the pool for all other positions. This is one of the reasons smart drafting teams do so well...a star player selected from halfway through the first round and down works cheap.

So if you agree with all that, then I'll get on to my point. Darell Revis's latest contract pays him roughly 16 Million (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/06/revis-deal-pays-out-1625-million-per-year-over-first-two-years/) per year, so we'll put Nnamdi at that price. Jonathan Joseph's agent is quoted as saying that he's looking for 8 Million (http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/1/2254119/john-clayton-johnathan-joseph-could-be-signed-for-around-8-million-a) a year in his new contract.

So if you extrapolate a bit, would you rather have a pair of corners featuring Nnamdi / Kareem (assuming KJ works for 0) or Joseph / Joseph; in this hypothetical they both cost 16 million per year.

Looking into the future, Jonathan also has age on his side as he's 3 years younger than Nnamdi. If you look at a five year contract, 3 years from now you can see the difference between signing a player that is towards the end of their prime (30), and one who's just started it (27).

I'm as impatient as anyone and would do a happy dance with either one, but what else do we have to talk about?That is pure nonsense because KJ does NOT work for 0 and you can't assume that for arguments sake or any other. You are correct in saying that paying a lot for one position affects all others.
I'm not in the "McNair is cheap" crowd. I'm glad we don't get in salary cap hell by paying UFA's a ton of money for a last hurrah. FA is not this clubs problem. The draft is. We start more drafted players than anyone in the league, I believe. The problem is that no other team in the NFL would start 30-40% of our players, especially on D. We have left a ton of players on the draft boards who have turned out to be solid starters/superstars. That's been our Achille's Heel for 9 seasons.
Aso is one FA I would break the bank on, though. No issues, whatsoever. Good, solid player. Good, solid person. He's the AJ of the defense.
EDIT: You have to throw coaching and the GM into the Achille's Heel pot. I would say scouting, but we don't know how often they get ignored or overruled. I guess that makes us a victim of 3 Achille's Heels. No wonder we show up Sundays looking like a three legged dog.

powerfuldragon
07-08-2011, 05:01 AM
who's the plant?

TEXANRED
07-08-2011, 06:10 AM
who's the plant?

Rick Smith

TimeKiller
07-08-2011, 08:46 AM
I'll say this, if/when they don't sign Asomugha......they had better put the Brinks truck in gear and back it up at this man's house. We MUST have a better CB in free agency. It HAS to happen.

nero THE zero
07-08-2011, 09:37 AM
Assuming that extra money goes toward improving another position, I'd rather sign a Jonathan Joseph or Richard Marshall.

I'd certainly rather have Joseph/Marshall + Sidney Rice / Vincent Jackson / Pass rushing OLB than just Asomugha. But, if we are just going to sign one impact player and then sign our own guys and "build through the draft," I'd rather get the best guy out there, and that is obviously Asomugha.

ubecool454
07-08-2011, 10:31 AM
I would sign Joseph because I think our pass rush will be on point this year which will take the pressure off any of the DBs.

vupac1
07-08-2011, 11:34 AM
Joseph + Weddle > Aso + Staying pat with the guys we have

El Tejano
07-08-2011, 12:22 PM
Joseph + Weddle > Aso + Staying pat with the guys we have

IMO, I agree with this statement. However, there are reasons why I'd like to still just get Aso if we could.

1. Aso, has proven to be a shut down corner without real safety help. His safety was Michael Huff and we don't know who the other guy is.

2. Aso is going to improve our younger guys who are going to be around alot longer like Jackson, Quin and Mccain.

3. As a fanbase, we would finally be able to put to rest that Bob Mcnair is or isn't cheap.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before, I agree with the above statement. But let's get two good players if we can get the one great player, because either way I'm seeing us trying to do something about our team.

DocBar
07-08-2011, 12:29 PM
Joseph + Weddle > Aso + Staying pat with the guys we haveGonna get a little crazy here.....
Aso+ Weddle+ Phillips > Manning + Brady.....I'm just sayin...

IDEXAN
07-08-2011, 02:31 PM
Based upon what I think it's gonna take to get each guy, I'd say value-wise Joseph would be a better sign. Remember we've got other needs besides CB.

GP
07-08-2011, 02:33 PM
Rick Smith

Yeah, the word "extrapolate" is what outed Rick there.

Very "Carlton" from Fresh Prince of Bellaire, IMO.

GP
07-08-2011, 02:35 PM
BTW, I'd be OK with declining Aso and going after a CB and S combo if the Aso thing can't be done.

Either one will make me happy, though it'd be arguably easier to tie Aso money up into TWO players rather than one. That way if ONE of the two guys doesn't work, you can lose him and keep the one guy who was worth it.

Tying up the bank in Aso means it's Aso and nothing else.

badboy
07-08-2011, 02:35 PM
Let me set up my premise first by saying we franchised Dunta Robinson for $10 m & even today many said we should have done it again for about $11-12m. Having said that sign both Joseph (8) & ASO (16) for 24 or avg $12 m each. Cut a whole lot of crap to get there financially.

GP
07-08-2011, 02:39 PM
Let me set up my premise first by saying we franchised Dunta Robinson for $10 m & even today many said we should have done it again for about $11-12m. Having said that sign both Joseph (8) & ASO (16) for 24 or avg $12 m each. Cut a whole lot of crap to get there financially.

Aso and Joseph? Sounds good to me. Sounds real good.

It'd be just like Bob to do some crazy shit like that all of a sudden. Just when you think you got him figured out, he could go and surprise us all.

Rey
07-08-2011, 02:55 PM
I'd rather have ASO...

He's a better player and I think GQ will make a good enough FS...

GP
07-08-2011, 03:28 PM
I'd rather have ASO...

:backsout:

Allstar
07-08-2011, 03:45 PM
I'd be fine with Joseph as an option B. I think that going hard for Aso would send a strong message to the fanbase and players that the organization wants to win. That, and I'd rather have Aso.

cland
07-08-2011, 04:11 PM
That is pure nonsense because KJ does NOT work for 0 and you can't assume that for arguments sake or any other. You are correct in saying that paying a lot for one position affects all others.
I'm not in the "McNair is cheap" crowd. I'm glad we don't get in salary cap hell by paying UFA's a ton of money for a last hurrah.

Well it is nonsense, but I would have thought that cloning Joseph and playing him at two positions would have stood out more. Adding in Kareem's salary is just more evidence that a 16.25 million dollar+ cornerback is a huge investment, especially when the cornerback turned 30 two days ago. I agree with everyone in that our secondary was trash last year, but I don't want the Texans to over-react and put their future on the line to fix the problem.

The differential in cash involved concerns me when we have Mario Williams and Arian Foster** coming up next year for new deals. Maybe it could be looked at as Nnamdi - Mario/Foster vs. Joseph + Mario/Foster.

I do agree that Nnamdi is at least tied for the best CB in the league, and would perform the best at CB in 2012. My problem is that after I've waited for 10 years (see I'm not Rick Smith,) when we finally do get to the playoffs that we're not a flash in the pan, who has to release key players the following year. Good drafting teams and smart spending teams have the opportunity to get in the playoffs, remain in the playoffs, and hopefully one year put all the pieces together to win it all.

Like others have mentioned, I'd much rather see Joseph + FA Safety (Weddle, Goldson, Landry) than just one single CB. If you thought Kareem got targeted last year, just imagine if he has Nnamdi on one side and two inexperienced safeties behind him. I also think about the Patriots who let Ty Law and Asante Samuel go get paid elsewhere rather than overextend themselves.

**Foster will actually be an RFA, so his big payday will come the following year.

MFG16
07-08-2011, 06:32 PM
IMO, I think it is better for us to sign multiple players with the money we would give Asomugha. Sure, Asomugha is an all-pro beast, but a signing with that much money involved might cripple us in the long term. (Don't get me wrong if we do somehow sign Asomugha I would be ecstatic) We don't know how the new cap is going to look, and we still have players that either need or are going to need new contracts. We need to re-sign Leach, and Foster is going to get paid at the end of the day. We have to also think about how much Mario is going to get (If we re-sign him). IMO, a combo of Joseph + Safety or WR is much better than just Asomugha. Also, if one player doesn't work out we can cut/trade him and not be stuck with a huge contract.

Scooter
07-08-2011, 07:03 PM
i dont think there's a wrong choice here. i'd usually go with the pair of good players instead of one great, but in this case i'd go with nnamdi. aso's not just a great player, he's the best in football at a top 3 position. at just about any other position (except quarterback) i'd take value - but here i think aso fills more holes than multiple FA's would, which makes him the value pick.

gary
07-08-2011, 07:39 PM
Is thirty really old for a CB? Champ Bailey just received a new contract.

Allstar
07-08-2011, 10:35 PM
The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel that I'd rather have Asomugha than 2 good players. He's a superstar. A very rare breed that can shut down half of a field that allows another player to free up and lets the defense as a whole get more exotic. Would you rather have LeBron James or Andre Iguadala and Russel Westbrook?

badboy
07-08-2011, 11:12 PM
Well it is nonsense, but I would have thought that cloning Joseph and playing him at two positions would have stood out more. Adding in Kareem's salary is just more evidence that a 16.25 million dollar+ cornerback is a huge investment, especially when the cornerback turned 30 two days ago. I agree with everyone in that our secondary was trash last year, but I don't want the Texans to over-react and put their future on the line to fix the problem.

The differential in cash involved concerns me when we have Mario Williams and Arian Foster** coming up next year for new deals. Maybe it could be looked at as Nnamdi - Mario/Foster vs. Joseph + Mario/Foster.

I do agree that Nnamdi is at least tied for the best CB in the league, and would perform the best at CB in 2012. My problem is that after I've waited for 10 years (see I'm not Rick Smith,) when we finally do get to the playoffs that we're not a flash in the pan, who has to release key players the following year. Good drafting teams and smart spending teams have the opportunity to get in the playoffs, remain in the playoffs, and hopefully one year put all the pieces together to win it all.

Like others have mentioned, I'd much rather see Joseph + FA Safety (Weddle, Goldson, Landry) than just one single CB. If you thought Kareem got targeted last year, just imagine if he has Nnamdi on one side and two inexperienced safeties behind him. I also think about the Patriots who let Ty Law and Asante Samuel go get paid elsewhere rather than overextend themselves.

**Foster will actually be an RFA, so his big payday will come the following year.We can let some guys go day one allowed and next year the guys from last two drafts should replace others. i am tired of waiting for next year. I do not usually want to overpay but an avg of $15m for Asomopugha is a good deal.

Texan_Bill
07-08-2011, 11:29 PM
who's the plant?

Those of us that spend waaaaaaaaaaay too much time in the NSZ during the offseason with a lockout! *ahem* Just sayin' :D

Cerberus
07-09-2011, 08:43 AM
First of all, though it is quite possible, it is not a lock that Nams leaves Oaktown. He has all of his charities and family in the area, so don't discount him staying put. However, with that said, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Nams try another team with another defensive scheme. In Oakland, the opposing QB's just stay away from him and can do so because of the man-to-man coverage Oakland uses. If Nams played in Ryan's system in NY, it would become obvious to those that don't know how good Nams really is. Now, will the Texans get him? Who knows. Too many teams want Nams, because they realize he is the best CB in the NFL, and he soon be available. Just don't rule out Al Davis cutting Nams another big check.

Brandon420tx
07-09-2011, 01:01 PM
I think its hysterical to think that Joseph's contract is going to be that much cheaper than whatever Asomugha gets, You might as well sign Aso because JJoseph is going to try to get as close to whatever he gets as he can.

c10x
07-09-2011, 01:30 PM
I'd rather have Joseph + Huff + available money to resign Vonta and Foster.

thunderkyss
07-09-2011, 01:51 PM
Well it is nonsense, but I would have thought that cloning Joseph and playing him at two positions would have stood out more. Adding in Kareem's salary is just more evidence that a 16.25 million dollar+ cornerback is a huge investment, especially when the cornerback turned 30 two days ago. I agree with everyone in that our secondary was trash last year, but I don't want the Texans to over-react and put their future on the line to fix the problem.


It might not be popular opinion here, but I don't believe it is absolutely imperative that we get Aso, Joseph, or any other veteran corner.

The secondary was bad last year, but I believe it was more due to a soft defensive mindset, technique, & coaching philosophy.

When they played aggressive they played well enough for us to get back into games. Shutting down the same offenses that were putting up 30 points against us & driving up & down the field.

If we can't land Aso, Joseph, or whoever I don't believe our season would be a wash.

In fact, if we can add a star next to Andre on offence (read Plaxico Burress), making our offence unstoppable, keeping our defense off the field (something we struggled to do last year) I think we would be doing just as well.

Rey
07-09-2011, 03:32 PM
It might not be popular opinion here, but I don't believe it is absolutely imperative that we get Aso, Joseph, or any other veteran corner.

The secondary was bad last year, but I believe it was more due to a soft defensive mindset, technique, & coaching philosophy.

When they played aggressive they played well enough for us to get back into games. Shutting down the same offenses that were putting up 30 points against us & driving up & down the field.

If we can't land Aso, Joseph, or whoever I don't believe our season would be a wash.

In fact, if we can add a star next to Andre on offence (read Plaxico Burress), making our offence unstoppable, keeping our defense off the field (something we struggled to do last year) I think we would be doing just as well.

Tk. Neither one of our starting safety's are still on the team. Gq is probably going to Fs.

Kareem Jackson gave up big plays like he was playing for the other team. Jason Allen would be the most reliable option at the position to start the season off. We have two rookies that are probably going to have to play rather significant roles. Brice McCain is too soft, struggles with zone and with bigger receivers. Molden is molden.

Maybe the corners ay a bit better in wades scheme.

But I don't care how bad the coaching is, how screwed up the psyche of the players is. . .you don't get torched as a secondary like we did last year without some incredibly bad players.

If the texans dont sign a vet corner in FA they have failed to give this team the best chance possible to Make the playoffs.

badboy
07-09-2011, 03:46 PM
I, too, think the DBs will be better under Wade's tutelage. However, if you can make your team better without giving up valuable picks or players, you should do it. I can give up end of bench players to create $ for stars. Then the pressure is off the younger guys who can learn from the vets.

thunderkyss
07-09-2011, 03:49 PM
If the texans dont sign a vet corner in FA they have failed to give this team the best chance possible to Make the playoffs.

I agree it would best if we could get Aso. I agree it would be great if we can get Joseph or Grimes.

All I'm saying is that the Colts can get into the playoffs with rookie corners & Bob Sanders on the bench.

GP
07-09-2011, 04:37 PM
I agree it would best if we could get Aso. I agree it would be great if we can get Joseph or Grimes.

All I'm saying is that the Colts can get into the playoffs with rookie corners & Bob Sanders on the bench.

The f------ Colts can get into the playoffs, TK, because they play in the f------ AFC South. OK?

(Sigh)

Have you forgotten that? The Titans imploded completely, the Texans do what the Texans do every year, and the Jags almost made the playoffs had they beaten the Texans in the last game. The Jags couldn't beat the Texans in the last game, which is just hilarious.

The AFC South is not that hard, except that the Colts can just be consistent and wait for the other three stooges to screw themselves out of contention each year. Not that hard, if we look at it through the prism of reality and not try to convolute it.

Also, man, I'm getting tired of you trying to spread Sunshine Mustard all over this Turdburger here. First you're saying Slaton is running better NOW than he did in his ONLY productive year (2008), and now you're in here trying to say that our secondary is not THAT bad and that we DON'T need the help we all know we damn sure need here.

What gives? Unable to accept cold, hard facts and live on Planet Reality? The need to try and act like things are not what they seem? The desire to try and just be a positive guy rather than succumb to negativity? Because it was one thing to theorize Slaton is running better NOW...but it's another thing to come right off the heels of that and say we don't need the help we need via a top-tier CB and/or S and/or both.

You see a pattern here? You're following a self-made formula you've concocted and applying it to everything that sucks here. Not buying any of it. I love divergent thinking, don't get me wrong, but divergent thinking is great only in rare and special cases with a dash of conventionalism to glue it all together. Nothing rare or special here for the Texans, TK...just good old-fashioned SUCK in certain areas that need quality-based correction.

badboy
07-09-2011, 04:50 PM
The f------ Colts can get into the playoffs, TK, because they play in the f------ AFC South. OK?

(Sigh)

Have you forgotten that? The Titans imploded completely, the Texans do what the Texans do every year, and the Jags almost made the playoffs had they beaten the Texans in the last game. The Jags couldn't beat the Texans in the last game, which is just hilarious.

The AFC South is not that hard, except that the Colts can just be consistent and wait for the other three stooges to screw themselves out of contention each year. Not that hard, if we look at it through the prism of reality and not try to convolute it.

Also, man, I'm getting tired of you trying to spread Sunshine Mustard all over this Turdburger here. First you're saying Slaton is running better NOW than he did in his ONLY productive year (2008), and now you're in here trying to say that our secondary is not THAT bad and that we DON'T need the help we all know we damn sure need here.

What gives? Unable to accept cold, hard facts and live on Planet Reality? The need to try and act like things are not what they seem? The desire to try and just be a positive guy rather than succumb to negativity? Because it was one thing to theorize Slaton is running better NOW...but it's another thing to come right off the heels of that and say we don't need the help we need via a top-tier CB and/or S and/or both.

You see a pattern here? You're following a self-made formula you've concocted and applying it to everything that sucks here. Not buying any of it. I love divergent thinking, don't get me wrong, but divergent thinking is great only in rare and special cases with a dash of conventionalism to glue it all together. Nothing rare or special here for the Texans, TK...just good old-fashioned SUCK in certain areas that need quality-based correction.

GP, I read TKs post differently. He didn't say forget about FAs just if we don't get we might be ok. I agree with that. A lot went into 6-10 beside poor DBs including Brown, Cushing suspensions and injuries to Barwin and Ryans and others. Coaching was a huge part of the season imo. Realistically, it will be tough to take current roster far but could be a first round play off team.

Maddict5
07-09-2011, 05:32 PM
hmmm i think its a rly difficult choice between aso or joseph & grimes. i suppose it depends on how you feel about kareem/allen/brice & mcmannis rly.

for me im fairly down on our cbs but aso would allow ALOT of help go to the other guys to protect them. on the other hand, if we somehow managed to land aso & gets injured anywhere down the line we're back to being totally screwed in the secondary. thats why id rather have 2 good (younger) guys than 1 great player that some guys might overlook.

GP
07-09-2011, 07:18 PM
GP, I read TKs post differently. He didn't say forget about FAs just if we don't get we might be ok. I agree with that. A lot went into 6-10 beside poor DBs including Brown, Cushing suspensions and injuries to Barwin and Ryans and others. Coaching was a huge part of the season imo. Realistically, it will be tough to take current roster far but could be a first round play off team.

Actually, most of what went into 6-10 was a really bad defense that was predicated upon really bad secondary play by Texans secondary players.

Again: Let's try to not be too fancy with what went wrong. Bad secondary playing, bad secondary players, and bad secondary coaching was the magical part of a most delicious meal for Texans opponents in 2010. We even lost to the Jags in our first meeting because a guy tried to knock the ball down rather than catch it. He could have caught it. But instead of doing the natural instinct, he batted it right into the hands of a Jags WR.

THAT play, IMO, was the defining play of that team in 2010. And it was made by a secondary player who was on a horrible, awful secondary that allowed a lot of other spectacular plays by opponents all season long.

I'd love to move Quin to safety, Kareem to CB3 or Nickel or whatever, and grab two more higher-level CBs via free agency. Keep Jason Allen on the roster and we have what I think could be a pretty good secondary since we now have Wade Phillips who will know how to put it together. I don't want Kareem Jackson out there as a CB1 nor as a CB2. I just don't. He needs to clear his mind and WATCH for awhile. Plus, he's a better roamer and not an out-on-an-island guy, IMO.

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2011, 07:41 PM
I agree it would best if we could get Aso. I agree it would be great if we can get Joseph or Grimes.

All I'm saying is that the Colts can get into the playoffs with rookie corners & Bob Sanders on the bench.

The Colts offense, though, can play 4 quarters.

steelbtexan
07-09-2011, 07:53 PM
GP, I read TKs post differently. He didn't say forget about FAs just if we don't get we might be ok. I agree with that. A lot went into 6-10 beside poor DBs including Brown, Cushing suspensions and injuries to Barwin and Ryans and others. Coaching was a huge part of the season imo. Realistically, it will be tough to take current roster far but could be a first round play off team.

Who do the Texans have better talent than?

New England, Jets, Steelers, Indy, Ravens, Chiefs, Chargers?

Plus I can see Miami/Cleveland/Denver improving and that doesn't inculde the Jags.

Do you see the dilema? The Texans have to improve their talent level/coaching. Signing Aso would be a start. Firing Gary would be the cherry on top. But we both know these things are not going to happen.

Rey
07-09-2011, 08:08 PM
I agree it would best if we could get Aso. I agree it would be great if we can get Joseph or Grimes.

All I'm saying is that the Colts can get into the playoffs with rookie corners & Bob Sanders on the bench.

Different teams are successful for different reasons.

Just because the titans can get to the play offs with Vince young at qb doesn't mean the colts could do it.

Teams are built differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

Colts have a devastating pass rush when both Mathis and freeny are healthy. Even one of them alone is a handful. They also play a different kind of defense than we play. They may not ask their corners to do the same things.

Then you have to look at how good and efficient their offense is. They have maybe the greatest ever at qb and he alone makes that team noticeably better. Maybe if we had Peyton we could go to the play offs with rookie corners too.

Maybe if we had bethea at safety we could trot rookie corners out there.

Overall their team is better. It's not really about one position it's about scheme, total team talent, and coaching.

Gb lost a lot if projected starters and guys who were supposed to contribute, but overall they ended up with enough of the other categories and they won the superbowl.

Speaking about the texans specifically what are you banking on to put us over the top that you feel will off set the need to upgrade our horrifically bad corners?


We have question marks in a lot if places. Even if we get a great corner it still wouldn't guarantee that we make the plays we need to or win enough games to get into the play offs.

gary
07-09-2011, 08:20 PM
Rookie corners might get you through the regular season and into the playoffs but I think that was part of the issue with Indy during the playoffs.

badboy
07-09-2011, 09:34 PM
hmmm i think its a rly difficult choice between aso or joseph & grimes. i suppose it depends on how you feel about kareem/allen/brice & mcmannis rly.

for me im fairly down on our cbs but aso would allow ALOT of help go to the other guys to protect them. on the other hand, if we somehow managed to land aso & gets injured anywhere down the line we're back to being totally screwed in the secondary. thats why id rather have 2 good (younger) guys than 1 great player that some guys might overlook.

If the starter opposite ASo get hurts you replace with same type CB. Harris(who is my starter ahead of KJ) gets hurt, KJ, McMannis or Carmichael replaces.

badboy
07-09-2011, 09:42 PM
Actually, most of what went into 6-10 was a really bad defense that was predicated upon really bad secondary play by Texans secondary players.

Again: Let's try to not be too fancy with what went wrong. Bad secondary playing, bad secondary players, and bad secondary coaching was the magical part of a most delicious meal for Texans opponents in 2010. We even lost to the Jags in our first meeting because a guy tried to knock the ball down rather than catch it. He could have caught it. But instead of doing the natural instinct, he batted it right into the hands of a Jags WR.

THAT play, IMO, was the defining play of that team in 2010. And it was made by a secondary player who was on a horrible, awful secondary that allowed a lot of other spectacular plays by opponents all season long.

I'd love to move Quin to safety, Kareem to CB3 or Nickel or whatever, and grab two more higher-level CBs via free agency. Keep Jason Allen on the roster and we have what I think could be a pretty good secondary since we now have Wade Phillips who will know how to put it together. I don't want Kareem Jackson out there as a CB1 nor as a CB2. I just don't. He needs to clear his mind and WATCH for awhile. Plus, he's a better roamer and not an out-on-an-island guy, IMO.GP, Cosby Quin did exactly what he was supposed to do on that play, it just backfired. I agree with the rest of your post.

badboy
07-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Who do the Texans have better talent than?

New England, Jets, Steelers, Indy, Ravens, Chiefs, Chargers?

Plus I can see Miami/Cleveland/Denver improving and that doesn't inculde the Jags.

Do you see the dilema? The Texans have to improve their talent level/coaching. Signing Aso would be a start. Firing Gary would be the cherry on top. But we both know these things are not going to happen.

Under the 3-4, IMO we are gonna be better than Tenn & Jacksonville and will play with the Colts. We could be division champs probably bowing out in first round. With ASO we go further. I not only see the dilema, I have been trumpeting since last season.

ArlingtonTexan
07-09-2011, 09:51 PM
All I know is that the "plan" needs to be

1) different than 2010 i.e. kinda trying to get the 2nd or 3rd best CB in FA and seeing one particular rookie can do

or

2) what it looks like at the moment i.e. more than moving an ok CB to FS and draft a couple more roookies with the idea that the gazillion Dbs with 3 years or less experience can be "coached up"

badboy
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
All I know is that the "plan" needs to be

1) different than 2010 i.e. kinda trying to get the 2nd or 3rd best CB in FA and seeing one particular rookie can do

or

2) what it looks like at the moment i.e. more than moving an ok CB to FS and draft a couple more roookies with the idea that the gazillion Dbs with 3 years or less experience can be "coached up"

And this is what my problem is, not being certain, Texan have a plan. I am optimistic only because of Phillips success in draft.

thunderkyss
07-09-2011, 10:34 PM
The Colts offense, though, can play 4 quarters.

Bingo.


If only we had on offensive genius running the show....... :kitten:

thunderkyss
07-09-2011, 10:43 PM
Speaking about the texans specifically what are you banking on to put us over the top that you feel will off set the need to upgrade our horrifically bad corners?


We have question marks in a lot if places. Even if we get a great corner it still wouldn't guarantee that we make the plays we need to or win enough games to get into the play offs.
I'm hoping Wade will let our defense dictate what happens on the field. Instead of playing on our heels & waiting to see what happens. I want us to force the issue.

Even last year, when we took our game to them, the defense didn't look bad at all. It was when we played conservatively that we couldn't stop anyone.

badboy
07-09-2011, 10:53 PM
I'm hoping Wade will let our defense dictate what happens on the field. Instead of playing on our heels & waiting to see what happens. I want us to force the issue.

Even last year, when we took our game to them, the defense didn't look bad at all. It was when we played conservatively that we couldn't stop anyone.You should get your wish. Everything about Phillip's defense is to attack. If our O can remain as effective, the D does not have to improve much to get us more wins. I want to see a better spread with running backs to keep Foster fresh and strong late in seasson. Tate may be the answer as another big, fast RB who should be able to catch out oif the backfield.

edo783
07-09-2011, 11:16 PM
IMO, I think we would improve the defense more by getting someone like Joseph and another like Weedel for safety. We could also probably add one of the 2 starting CBs that are UFAs on the Raven's. This could probably be done for something around what we would pay for Aso by himself. Aso is better than any of them, but combined they strengthen the defense more. Better use of money by spreading the exposure out and getting more bang for the buck I think.

GP
07-10-2011, 12:23 AM
GP, Cosby Quin did exactly what he was supposed to do on that play, it just backfired. I agree with the rest of your post.

It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.

buddyboy
07-10-2011, 01:38 AM
It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.

Hail mary pass where Glover is jumping amongst a sea of other players, being jostled around etc...

I'd hate to see a defensive back, who likely has unreliable hands, try and catch that ball. There is at least 10x more of a chance that the ball bounces out of his hands, creating an easier opportunity for the Jags to catch in the endzone than what happened.

Wolf6151
07-10-2011, 01:49 AM
Joseph + Weddle > Aso + Staying pat with the guys we have


Agreed. Joseph and Weddle would be better than Aso.

leebigeztx
07-10-2011, 03:08 AM
Assuming that extra money goes toward improving another position, I'd rather sign a Jonathan Joseph or Richard Marshall.

I'd certainly rather have Joseph/Marshall + Sidney Rice / Vincent Jackson / Pass rushing OLB than just Asomugha. But, if we are just going to sign one impact player and then sign our own guys and "build through the draft," I'd rather get the best guy out there, and that is obviously Asomugha.

Exactly! I would rather have marshall and franklin at 16m vs nmandi at 16m and nmandi is one of my favorite players. In fact, I would rather have marshall or joseph at 7, hayneworth ath 4m and julian peterson at 4m vs the 16m for nmandi. The texans need a impact player at every level defensively to become a better defense. They could cut or trade okoye,adibi,and or smith along with some of the other 4-3 players that don't fit or hasn't shown much.

Rey
07-10-2011, 04:46 AM
It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.

He actually did what he was supposed to on that play. That's what you're taught on every single level of football starting with flag.

I dont think that he did it well. Your supposed to basically bat the ball directly into the ground. Gq played it like a robot. He just batted the ball. He didn't try to spike it into the ground. Makes no sense to bat the ball down into the crowd. That defeats the purpose. You bat it out of bounds or just away from where the crowd of bodies are.

DocBar
07-10-2011, 07:15 AM
He actually did what he was supposed to on that play. That's what you're taught on every single level of football starting with flag.

I dont think that he did it well. Your supposed to basically bat the ball directly into the ground. Gq played it like a robot. He just batted the ball. He didn't try to spike it into the ground. Makes no sense to bat the ball down into the crowd. That defeats the purpose. You bat it out of bounds or just away from where the crowd of bodies are. That play was a microcosm of the Texan's season. Murphy's Law kicked our butt last year.

Lucky
07-10-2011, 07:32 AM
That play was a microcosm of the Texan's season. Murphy's Law kicked our butt last year.
I call it Kubiak's Law. Find a way to lose. Just be mediocre, baby!

beerlover
07-10-2011, 01:52 PM
Two words: HELL NO

GP
07-10-2011, 07:47 PM
Hail mary pass where Glover is jumping amongst a sea of other players, being jostled around etc...

I'd hate to see a defensive back, who likely has unreliable hands, try and catch that ball. There is at least 10x more of a chance that the ball bounces out of his hands, creating an easier opportunity for the Jags to catch in the endzone than what happened.

That's utter bullshit. Get real.

You and Rey are saying this just to be contradictory about it.

You show me a coach in the history of any level of football who would rather have his player BAT the ball than to put two hands around it and secure it.

Geez. I'm done with this. OK, yeah...you two win: Tipping the ball into the air is better than trying to catch it.

Makes perfect sense.

Allstar
07-10-2011, 08:00 PM
That's utter bullshit. Get real.

You and Rey are saying this just to be contradictory about it.

You show me a coach in the history of any level of football who would rather have his player BAT the ball than to put two hands around it and secure it.

Geez. I'm done with this. OK, yeah...you two win: Tipping the ball into the air is better than trying to catch it.

Makes perfect sense.

Have you ever played football? Hate to break it to you, but every coach I've ever had has taught me to swat it down. We can argue why or why not, but GQ did exactly what coaches at every level preach. Do you honestly think Quin wasn't instructed to swat it down right before the play?

House of Pain
07-10-2011, 08:25 PM
That's utter bullshit. Get real.

You and Rey are saying this just to be contradictory about it.

You show me a coach in the history of any level of football who would rather have his player BAT the ball than to put two hands around it and secure it.

Geez. I'm done with this. OK, yeah...you two win: Tipping the ball into the air is better than trying to catch it.

Makes perfect sense.

I know what you are getting at, but, in that situation, swatting the ball ends the quarter and takes the game into overtime.

thunderkyss
07-10-2011, 10:10 PM
That's utter bullshit. Get real.

You and Rey are saying this just to be contradictory about it.

You show me a coach in the history of any level of football who would rather have his player BAT the ball than to put two hands around it and secure it.

Geez. I'm done with this. OK, yeah...you two win: Tipping the ball into the air is better than trying to catch it.

Makes perfect sense.

I remember plenty of times, where the DB or LB would try to catch the ball only to allow the ball bounce back in the air & the opposing team would catch the ball.

Everyone, including the commentators would stress how it is taught to bat the ball to the ground in that situation. DBs & LBs aren't known to have good hands or ball skills. If they did, they would be on offense.

I agree, Glover did a poor job of swatting the ball to the ground, but that was the right thing to do, that was the right play.

I say that, only to say I don't believe their intentions are to be contradictory.... just old school football.

badboy
07-10-2011, 11:12 PM
It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.What are you taking about? All of us have seen players try to catch balls in the air only to have them bounce off hands, shoulder pads or even helmets into the hands of opponent or player catches and then fumbles. He and others were taught in that situation to knock the ball down. Management supported his decision as what he was supposed to do. If you disagree, blame it on coaching. I remember thinking he would intercept and go into OT. Still, Quin did what he was supposed to do.

I think you are playing games with my choice of "backfired". The goal was to knock ball to ground and out of play. It did not work as he was coached.

buddyboy
07-11-2011, 01:15 AM
That's utter bullshit. Get real.

You and Rey are saying this just to be contradictory about it.

You show me a coach in the history of any level of football who would rather have his player BAT the ball than to put two hands around it and secure it.

Geez. I'm done with this. OK, yeah...you two win: Tipping the ball into the air is better than trying to catch it.

Makes perfect sense.

You're right, you're the only sane one among a sea of lunatics.

GP
07-11-2011, 01:32 AM
Yes, I've played football. Cornerback.

No, I'd never had a coach say you should bat the ball if you have a chance to catch it first.

I suppose a LB who jumps into the air, timing it as the QB releases the ball, should only bat the ball down? How would they ever get a chance to intercept it? How about D-linemen who also jump up and attempt to catch a QB's pass?

If LBs and DLs can jump up and catch a pass, a CB should be 10-times as more competent to do such a thing.

By you guys' theory, we'd never have an interception because every player would be batting the football to the ground instead of trying to catch it.

Allstar
07-11-2011, 01:42 AM
Yes, I've played football. Cornerback.

No, I'd never had a coach say you should bat the ball if you have a chance to catch it first.

I suppose a LB who jumps into the air, timing it as the QB releases the ball, should only bat the ball down? How would they ever get a chance to intercept it? How about D-linemen who also jump up and attempt to catch a QB's pass?

If LBs and DLs can jump up and catch a pass, a CB should be 10-times as more competent to do such a thing.

By you guys' theory, we'd never have an interception because every player would be batting the football to the ground instead of trying to catch it.

You are missing the point. If it's a last chance, end of the game heave(or any situation where a turnover doesn't matter), you swat. You won't find a coach who tells you otherwise.

I'm sure that Gibbs told every DB on the sideline to swat the ball down right before the play. You can't blame Quin on the decision, just the execution.

thunderkyss
07-11-2011, 03:20 AM
By you guys' theory, we'd never have an interception because every player would be batting the football to the ground instead of trying to catch it.

It's a hail mary at the end of the game.

You bat it down.

Rey
07-11-2011, 08:03 AM
Yes, I've played football. Cornerback.

No, I'd never had a coach say you should bat the ball if you have a chance to catch it first.

I suppose a LB who jumps into the air, timing it as the QB releases the ball, should only bat the ball down? How would they ever get a chance to intercept it? How about D-linemen who also jump up and attempt to catch a QB's pass?

If LBs and DLs can jump up and catch a pass, a CB should be 10-times as more competent to do such a thing.

By you guys' theory, we'd never have an interception because every player would be batting the football to the ground instead of trying to catch it.

You are really showing your ignorance here.

Either you had some bad coaches growing up, or you didn't play football that long and you were probably on some bad teams.

Maybe you were that goofy guy at the end of the depth chart that didn't really pay attention. I dunno.

In end of the game situations you are taught to bat the ball down. On every single level. In fact as you move up levels we'd are even taught to go for the rebound.

Not sure where your theory is coming from but like I said, you're showing your ignorance.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Historically, "Night Train" was the type of cornerback you would want on this team. I understand, the time and rules were different then, but I saw him as a kid in the 60's. He would never fail to go for the ball..........or "bat down" the receiver.:aggressive:

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-BjDyWoGlk

Texan4Ever
07-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Back to the topic, I like Leon Hall better than Joseph (not sure if Hall is available or not). However, I think we can ALL agree that a CB is a must sign during FA if we have one.

badboy
07-12-2011, 12:45 PM
Back to the topic, I like Leon Hall better than Joseph (not sure if Hall is available or not). However, I think we can ALL agree that a CB is a must sign during FA if we have one.Hopefull not a Jaquez Reeves type.

powda
07-12-2011, 12:53 PM
Back to the topic, I like Leon Hall better than Joseph (not sure if Hall is available or not).

Hall is not available.

To me Jospeh is the better target. N.A. will get most of the pub but he's over 30 and hes going to cost truck loads to lure him here. Joseph has a good track record, hes in his prime and will be for a few more years...

Cromartie is a nutcase.

I havent seen Richard Marshall play in a few years and I want no part of signing Ike Taylor...

Grimes is intriguing but to my knowledge hes only had 1 good year.

gary
07-12-2011, 01:01 PM
Asomugha is thirty right on the number.

badboy
07-12-2011, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=powda;1722922]Hall is not available.

To me Jospeh is the better target. N.A. will get most of the pub but he's over 30 and hes going to cost truck loads to lure him here. Joseph has a good track record, hes in his prime and will be for a few more years...

Cromartie is a nutcase.

I havent seen Richard Marshall play in a few years and I want no part of signing Ike Taylor...

Grimes is intriguing but to my knowledge hes only had 1 good year.[/QUOTE As Gary said Asomougha is 30 and no history of major injury & plays full seasons. He should be able to play 3-4 years without losing skills although anything can happen. Even after that he could play safety if needed. He is the real deal. The only knock is he plays one side of field. Guess where the #1 WR usually plays? With Nnamdi on one side, you simply put a corner and the FS on the other side.

Allstar
07-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Isn't Grimes restricted no matter what?

gary
07-12-2011, 02:51 PM
I honestly think he should have four or five more years left in him as a number one corner and then he could play free safety after that.

badboy
07-12-2011, 02:58 PM
I honestly think he should have four or five more years left in him as a number one corner and then he could play free safety after that.I think this is the right scenario, Gary. :handshake:

thunderkyss
07-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Hall is not available.

Why isn't Hall available?

Rick Smith is a GM, not a FA acquisitioner. This team needs help, he should be doing everything in his power to get it.

That includes proposing trades & making shit happen.

Grimes is intriguing but to my knowledge hes only had 1 good year.

Depends on what you call a good year..... his play has been steadily improving & QBs are trying to stay away from him.

He's young & has been getting better year after year.

gary
07-12-2011, 03:04 PM
I think this is the right scenario, Gary. :handshake:Make him an offer and say take it or we are moving on to our next target.

badboy
07-12-2011, 03:06 PM
Make him an offer and say take it or we are moving on to our next target.The problem with that is we may not get to be first to offer that scenario to him.

gary
07-12-2011, 03:12 PM
The problem with that is we may not get to be first to offer that scenario to him.
Which is exactly why Rick Smith should be on the phone the minute free agency begins.

badboy
07-12-2011, 04:04 PM
Which is exactly why Rick Smith should be on the phone the minute free agency begins.Answer your call waiting Namdi it is money from Houston on the line.:hurrah:

Mr teX
07-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Make him an offer and say take it or we are moving on to our next target.

Yeah, that'll get him here...Namdi is going to have damn near every team in the league courting him.. You think it's any skin off his back that THE TEXANS of all teams are dropping ultimatums on him? He'll be like...:lol:.....:rolleyes:

steelbtexan
07-12-2011, 04:32 PM
Yeah, that'll get him here...Namdi is going to have damn near every team in the league courting him.. You think it's any skin off his back that THE TEXANS of all teams are dropping ultimatums on him? He'll be like...:lol:.....:rolleyes:

If you make him a out of this world offer he'll sign it.

Atleast that's what the Bears did with Peppers.

He came in the building and Angelo made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Can Rick pull this off with Aso? Given his track record it's doubtful.

gary
07-12-2011, 04:42 PM
Yeah, that'll get him here...Namdi is going to have damn near every team in the league courting him.. You think it's any skin off his back that THE TEXANS of all teams are dropping ultimatums on him? He'll be like...:lol:.....:rolleyes:He still would not be able to take an offer from Smith to another team only to come back here if he does not receive a better offer.

Mr teX
07-12-2011, 04:45 PM
If you make him a out of this world offer he'll sign it.

Atleast that's what the Bears did with Peppers.

He came in the building and Angelo made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Can Rick pull this off with Aso? Given his track record it's doubtful.

That's a far more different scenario than saying, "here, take this" like they're saying though...mainly b/c of the presentation.

Mr teX
07-12-2011, 04:52 PM
He still would not be able to take an offer from Smith to another team only to come back here if he does not receive a better offer.

In negotiations of this magnitude, you just have to assume that that's what's going on though. I mean lets face it, You as a team should be working on other FA options (Joseph) simultaneously if you already have an idea that Aso's going to be priced out of your range.

All you can really do is set in your head the max you'll want to pay him, offer him something at the median range of that & negotiate up to your max if given the opportunity,...that & hope that some other team doesn't blow everyone out of the water with a ridiculous Dan Snyder-esque offer.

gary
07-12-2011, 04:59 PM
In negotiations of this magnitude, you just have to assume that that's what's going on though. I mean lets face it, You as a team should be working on other FA options (Joseph) simultaneously if you already have an idea that Aso's going to be priced out of your range.

All you can really do is set in your head the max you'll want to pay him, offer him something at the median range of that & negotiate up to your max if given the opportunity,...that & hope that some other team doesn't blow everyone out of the water with a ridiculous Dan Snyder-esque offer.You would still be going after other free agents after telling Asomugha here it is so take or leave it.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 05:35 PM
Here's our new CB:

Nate Robinson seeks NFL tryout (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-spt-nate-robinson,0,361463.story)

DocBar
07-12-2011, 05:50 PM
Here's our new CB:

Nate Robinson seeks NFL tryout (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-spt-nate-robinson,0,361463.story)

That's funny. I wonder what Casserly thinks of him.

badboy
07-12-2011, 05:50 PM
Yeah, that'll get him here...Namdi is going to have damn near every team in the league courting him.. You think it's any skin off his back that THE TEXANS of all teams are dropping ultimatums on him? He'll be like...:lol:.....:rolleyes:Well if you read any of the gossip about Nnamdi Asomougha you would know that what you are saying is not correct. Do a google search and see how many are not going to court him. Someone in last two days posted a link that Detroit will not go after him.

As a shutdown corner he wants a defense that fits his skill set and an attacking front seven will meet that. He wants a defensive coordinator that will allow him to play a cover man to man that he excels at rather than a zone or bump & run. He wants vet LBs that love to hit and ours are the epitome of that. On offense he wants a team that can score a lot and move the ball on ground to keep ASO rested & at his best the entire game. We offer a top 8 or better QB, best WR in NFL and last year's best NFL rusher. He also wants a team that has cap space to pay him big bucks.
In my opinion, Dallas, Philadelphia and Texans are his top suitors. I will not roll my eyes at your post.

The Pencil Neck
07-12-2011, 06:14 PM
It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.

Wrong.

He did what every corner back in the league has been taught to do in that situation since they were in grade school.

You do NOT go for the interception because that's the selfish grandstanding play that has the greater chance of backfiring.

What do you do?

You knock the ball down.

Which is exactly what Quin did.

And it backfired. Not because he was doing something radical or different but because... in this one instance... it didn't work and he batted down right into someone's hands on the other team. That's a fluke play.

But that doesn't change the fact that he did exactly what he'd been trained to do and exactly what he should have done.

gary
07-12-2011, 06:29 PM
Well if you read any of the gossip about Nnamdi Asomougha you would know that what you are saying is not correct. Do a google search and see how many are not going to court him. Someone in last two days posted a link that Detroit will not go after him.

As a shutdown corner he wants a defense that fits his skill set and an attacking front seven will meet that. He wants a defensive coordinator that will allow him to play a cover man to man that he excels at rather than a zone or bump & run. He wants vet LBs that love to hit and ours are the epitome of that. On offense he wants a team that can score a lot and move the ball on ground to keep ASO rested & at his best the entire game. We offer a top 8 or better QB, best WR in NFL and last year's best NFL rusher. He also wants a team that has cap space to pay him big bucks.
In my opinion, Dallas, Philadelphia and Texans are his top suitors. I will not roll my eyes at your post.That is the way some are I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

badboy
07-12-2011, 06:34 PM
That is the way some are I just shrug my shoulders and move on.Gary, I try to be more like you but when one poster tries to belittle another, it bothers me, especially when the one rolling his eyes is completely wrong. I have been in some pretty heated posts especially in the old religious threads as you know. I don't recall trying to embarass another.

Anyway, I start a new Bible class tonight and I will pray for me.

ensign_lee
07-12-2011, 06:38 PM
It backfired?

Then that means he wasn't doing ALL he could do. It means he tried something radical or deviant from the standard/norm...and it "backfired."

Had he tried to catch the ball, he might have (a) caught the ball, or (b) knocked it away by not catching it.

Once you bat a ball, it's anybody's ball to be had. Catching versus batting are two very different things. I expect a professional football player to try and catch the ball first and foremost, and if he's out of reach...THEN try to deflect it.

Backfired is a good description. Though I wouldn't say it combines well with the phrase "he was doing what he was supposed to on that play." That's where I think our two paths of reasoning diverge.

Have you played as a defensive back? Or in football?

In hail mary situations, the correct play is to BAT THE BALL TO THE GROUND: which is what he did.

If you try to catch it, you are being selfish and risking knocking the ball UP to be caught.

Every coach I know tells their defensive backs to knock the ball down in the following situations:
1) Hail Mary
2) 4th Down
3) Last play of half/ game / etc.

Don't be so results oriented. Think about the person who says 'OH MAN I TOTALLY SHOULD HAVE PUT MY LIFE SAVINGS ON 00' when he passes a roulette table and it lands on 00? Then thinks about "all that money helost", since he didn't multiply his life savings by 30?

The correct decision in that analogy is to NOT put your life savings on 00, since it is a negative expected value decision, just like the correct decision on the last play of the game is to bat the ball down. Now, will shit happen? Yes. The roulette ball could actually land on 00, or you could accidentally bat the ball down into a receiver's hands. Shit happens. That doesn't change what the correct decision would be.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 07:39 PM
You would still be going after other free agents after telling Asomugha here it is so take or leave it.

They better be doing this. If Aso does not take the offer right off the bat (VERY LIKELY), the Texans will only have approximately a 3-4 day window to wrap up one of the other CBs.:cool:

gary
07-12-2011, 07:49 PM
Gary, I try to be more like you but when one poster tries to belittle another, it bothers me, especially when the one rolling his eyes is completely wrong. I have been in some pretty heated posts especially in the old religious threads as you know. I don't recall trying to embarass another.

Anyway, I start a new Bible class tonight and I will pray for me.I'd pray for you and some others.

DocBar
07-12-2011, 07:50 PM
They better be doing this. If Aso does not take the offer right off the bat (VERY LIKELY), the Texans will only have approximately a 3-4 day window to wrap up one of the other CBs.:cool:The short signing period should make for a very interesting dynamic on both sides. If Aso fails to choose a team quickly and they sign other FA's, he might lose a bit of his leverage in negotiations. This is very much a double-edged sword.

GP
07-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Have you played as a defensive back? Or in football?

In hail mary situations, the correct play is to BAT THE BALL TO THE GROUND: which is what he did.

If you try to catch it, you are being selfish and risking knocking the ball UP to be caught.

Every coach I know tells their defensive backs to knock the ball down in the following situations:
1) Hail Mary
2) 4th Down
3) Last play of half/ game / etc.

Don't be so results oriented. Think about the person who says 'OH MAN I TOTALLY SHOULD HAVE PUT MY LIFE SAVINGS ON 00' when he passes a roulette table and it lands on 00? Then thinks about "all that money helost", since he didn't multiply his life savings by 30?

The correct decision in that analogy is to NOT put your life savings on 00, since it is a negative expected value decision, just like the correct decision on the last play of the game is to bat the ball down. Now, will shit happen? Yes. The roulette ball could actually land on 00, or you could accidentally bat the ball down into a receiver's hands. Shit happens. That doesn't change what the correct decision would be.

I've stated that I played CB before.

I was always told to try and secure the football.

You'd rather BAT the ball and chance a bad deflection, instead of placing your hands and all 10 fingers around the ball?

The chances are better that you mis-judge how to bat the ball (angle of the ball as it descends, the spin on it, the velocity on it, the WR and how he might be adjusting to the ball, etc.). I'd rather lose by having tried to catch the ball and end the game right there, than to tip the ball and have little control of where I'm actually batting it.

Let's keep doing this for another week. See if we can convert each other.

thunderkyss
07-12-2011, 08:56 PM
In negotiations of this magnitude, you just have to assume that that's what's going on though. I mean lets face it, You as a team should be working on other FA options (Joseph) simultaneously if you already have an idea that Aso's going to be priced out of your range.

All you can really do is set in your head the max you'll want to pay him, offer him something at the median range of that & negotiate up to your max if given the opportunity,...that & hope that some other team doesn't blow everyone out of the water with a ridiculous Dan Snyder-esque offer.

& That's exactly what the Texans have not done. How many DEs have we had work out with us before we signed Smith?

How many CBs came through when we "pursued" Bodden?

The Texans are likely to make a pitch to Nnamdi & give him "a week to think it over, take your time, we don't want to rush you. We want to make sure you make a decision that's good for you."

Screw that, we need to put the pressure on. "Shit or get off the pot. I've got three guys that I'll settle for coming through that door in the next 18 hours. What's your answer?"

& it's not that we think Aso is priced out of our range. It's that I think he has no intention of signing with us, he'll use the Texans like the others we've "pursued" to leverage his bargaining position.

Allstar
07-12-2011, 09:56 PM
John Clayton was on SC talking about free agency. Said he expected Nnamdi to reach a deal with a team within 4-5 hours of free agency. It's possible, I remember Haynesworth signing a deal basically at midnight when FA began.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 10:57 PM
John Clayton was on SC talking about free agency. Said he expected Nnamdi to reach a deal with a team within 4-5 hours of free agency. It's possible, I remember Haynesworth signing a deal basically at midnight when FA began.

Goes right along with what I was talking about in my last post.

El Tejano
07-13-2011, 09:18 AM
John Clayton was on SC talking about free agency. Said he expected Nnamdi to reach a deal with a team within 4-5 hours of free agency. It's possible, I remember Haynesworth signing a deal basically at midnight when FA began.

I remember when Jeff Posey left us at 12:00:01 am on the morning of FA.

Rey
07-13-2011, 10:12 AM
Aso is coming to houston. Bet on it. He loves us.

El Tejano
07-13-2011, 10:56 AM
Aso is coming to houston. Bet on it. He loves us.

What gives you that impression?

b0ng
07-13-2011, 11:42 AM
Do people here really think that Jonathan Joseph AND Eric Weddle are going to cost less combined than Aso will cost by himself? I don't think it's going to happen like that at all for whats probably the #1 free agent Safety and the #2 CB.

steelbtexan
07-13-2011, 11:57 AM
I remember when Jeff Posey left us at 12:00:01 am on the morning of FA.

Never to be heard from again.

DocBar
07-13-2011, 12:27 PM
Never to be heard from again.

We sure did do a lot whining about it at the time. At least I did.

powda
07-13-2011, 12:30 PM
Why isn't Hall available?

He was refering to free agency. Why lose assets when other cornerbacks of equal value are available in free agency?


Depends on what you call a good year..... his play has been steadily improving & QBs are trying to stay away from him.

He's young & has been getting better year after year.

He has gotten much better. I tend to trust someone with a longer track record. Arron Rogers didnt stay away from anyone in their secondary ,but he would definetly be an upgrade over what we have.

Rey
07-15-2011, 01:51 PM
What I find funny about debating over Joseph and Aso is that at the end of the day I don't think it's going to be us choosing.

I think we are going to take whoever will have us.

If the Texans go after Aso and he says yes, we'd have to have some of the dumbest mofos on the planet in charge if they say hmmmm.....Hold that thought, let us gauge what we can do to get Joseph in here...

Whoever says yes first, that's who we take.

We are the beggers. I'm not going to be choosy at this point. I'd be extremely happy with either one of them.

Rey
07-15-2011, 01:52 PM
What gives you that impression?

Just a vibe that I have.

powda
07-15-2011, 02:08 PM
I think we are going to take whoever will have us.


I think your 100% right ,but time and cap space are both commodities in short supply. "who should get the biggest and most expensive sales pitch, and in what order?" Is probably the better question.

My gut tells me the name of this thread should be, "Is Grimes a better signing then Rodgers?"

As a Texans fan I cant help thinking Aso and Joseph are reflections of a dog with a bone in his mouth...

badboy
07-15-2011, 02:21 PM
As I posted somewhere before we sign both Joseph and ASO. WIth cap space under $122m & by dumping contracts of avg players (Okoye) and "Who is that guy" we can sign both. That immediately changes D and we should be ok with Quin and Nolan and other guys at DB. This also makes up for loss of off season OTAs and practice to get younger DBs better.

Mr teX
07-15-2011, 04:55 PM
Gary, I try to be more like you but when one poster tries to belittle another, it bothers me, especially when the one rolling his eyes is completely wrong. I have been in some pretty heated posts especially in the old religious threads as you know. I don't recall trying to embarass another.

Anyway, I start a new Bible class tonight and I will pray for me.

Dude, i wasn't "rolling my eyes" at your post....that was supposed to be implied what Namdi would do if the texans came at him the way you guys are saying.."Take this...". Relax.

GP
07-16-2011, 01:36 AM
There's a difference between playing in a professional football league, and playing in a pee-wee/high school football team.

With that said, there's a obvious reason why he has gone for the interception/deflection every other time, and went for a two-handed bat down in that final play of the Jags game.

OK. :handshake:

:shakeweight:

thunderkyss
07-16-2011, 02:02 AM
As I posted somewhere before we sign both Joseph and ASO. WIth cap space under $122m & by dumping contracts of avg players (Okoye) and "Who is that guy" we can sign both. That immediately changes D and we should be ok with Quin and Nolan and other guys at DB. This also makes up for loss of off season OTAs and practice to get younger DBs better.

I'm sure you know this, so this is for those that do not.


Dumping players isn't necessarily always a good thing. Depending on the structure of their contracts, sometimes it is cheaper to keep them.

The main culprit is usually the signing bonus. A big bonus is usually divided by the number of years of a contract. That average is then added to the player's annual salary to come up with his cap number.

If a player has multiple years left on his contract at the time the team releases him (whether by trade or roster cut) then the remaining amount of that bonus will be applied to the cap that year.

So if a player's cap number is $2M salary + $2M bonus with three years left on his contract, he'll cost the team $4M against the cap if he plays. $6M if he is cut.

GP
07-16-2011, 02:36 AM
What I find funny about debating over Joseph and Aso is that at the end of the day I don't think it's going to be us choosing.

I think we are going to take whoever will have us.

If the Texans go after Aso and he says yes, we'd have to have some of the dumbest mofos on the planet in charge if they say hmmmm.....Hold that thought, let us gauge what we can do to get Joseph in here...

Whoever says yes first, that's who we take.

We are the beggers. I'm not going to be choosy at this point. I'd be extremely happy with either one of them.

I can buy into what you're saying here. There's a fairly good shot that this scenario you've proposed will indeed play out in this manner.

It quacks like a duck and looks like a duck to me. REP YOUR WAY.

DocBar
07-16-2011, 04:47 AM
I can buy into what you're saying here. There's a fairly good shot that this scenario you've proposed will indeed play out in this manner.

It quacks like a duck and looks like a duck to me. REP YOUR WAY.
If Aso takes too long, he stands to lose some serious $$. It's in his best interest to strike while the iron's hot, also.

nero THE zero
07-16-2011, 05:36 AM
What I find funny about debating over Joseph and Aso is that at the end of the day I don't think it's going to be us choosing.


How is this not the case for any team in the NFL? There are 32 teams and they all have something to offer; including the chance of winning, money, and innumerable intangibles.

The idea that we are some loser organization that has no chance at landing a quality free agent aside from offering above-market cash is flawed and dated. It is something that has been resurrected from the Casserly era because of one disappointing season. People are desperate to revert to that for some reason. But, aside from our one bad season with a historically bad defense, we have been a team with a really good offense with a whole lot of potential.

There's no reason to think a good defensive FA wouldn't think he, along with Wade Phillips, would be enough to convert our bad defense into a nice complement to our already good offense.

GP
07-16-2011, 01:18 PM
How is this not the case for any team in the NFL? There are 32 teams and they all have something to offer; including the chance of winning, money, and innumerable intangibles.

The idea that we are some loser organization that has no chance at landing a quality free agent aside from offering above-market cash is flawed and dated. It is something that has been resurrected from the Casserly era because of one disappointing season. People are desperate to revert to that for some reason. But, aside from our one bad season with a historically bad defense, we have been a team with a really good offense with a whole lot of potential.

There's no reason to think a good defensive FA wouldn't think he, along with Wade Phillips, would be enough to convert our bad defense into a nice complement to our already good offense.

Well, we've NOT been to the AFC Championship game like the Jets have.

Aso doesn't strike me as the type of NFL player who is strictly about the money. He's known as a smart guy, savvy thinker. To him, he's going to choose the place that has the best payoff in both money AND chances at a title.

As much as it means to us Texans fans to have a decent d-coord, I'm not so sure that Aso stakes the latter part of his career upon the Texans turning it around with his help.

If anything, it seems more logical that he'd find a place where the defense is already dominant and he can add the final nail to a coffin. Just going on past history, over the past 2-3 years, I'd say New York Jets fits that bill.

Ravens would be another choice IF the Ravens were inclined to go that route.

I'm 50-50 on this. My longstanding desire was to get the guy here. But I've slowly warmed to the idea of adding one or two other upper-tier CBs, or adding an upper-tier CB and an upper-tier S to the team. Strength in numbers, so to speak.

If we do nothing, then I'm going to burn this board down. You've all been warned. LOL.

ObsiWan
07-16-2011, 01:33 PM
I'm 50-50 on this. My longstanding desire was to get the guy here. But I've slowly warmed to the idea of adding one or two other upper-tier CBs, or adding an upper-tier CB and an upper-tier S to the team. Strength in numbers, so to speak.

If we do nothing, then I'm going to burn this board down. You've all been warned. LOL.

If we "do nothing" I'll kick in $100 for your gasoline.

Maddict5
07-16-2011, 01:52 PM
the more i read about ike taylor, the more i think he will be the guy we get in FA... despite him being a non big name like aso or a young talented guy like joseph & grimes, most experts agree hes the best press man cb after nnamdi.

hes extremely consistent, experienced & is a good tackler, comes from a winning franchise etc. add it all together plus the fact he wont be signed to a monster contract.. it ties in with other recent FA moves i.e. good players that arent big names that generally leave most fans underwhelmed..

i think we should be preparing ourselves for this happening

badboy
07-16-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm sure you know this, so this is for those that do not.


Dumping players isn't necessarily always a good thing. Depending on the structure of their contracts, sometimes it is cheaper to keep them.

The main culprit is usually the signing bonus. A big bonus is usually divided by the number of years of a contract. That average is then added to the player's annual salary to come up with his cap number.

If a player has multiple years left on his contract at the time the team releases him (whether by trade or roster cut) then the remaining amount of that bonus will be applied to the cap that year.

So if a player's cap number is $2M salary + $2M bonus with three years left on his contract, he'll cost the team $4M against the cap if he plays. $6M if he is cut.Agree on all points but stand by my statement that there are player that can be cut or traded for draft picks to allow $ to sign super stat Nnamdi Asomougha. The dead money you refer to has gotten us in trouble before but if you cut a player at the end of his next to last year you should still save money. You must pay the last year bonus but not the salary. I brought this up as some are coincerned about signing a 30 YOA Nnamdi to a long term deal. I'm not.

steelbtexan
07-16-2011, 02:55 PM
Being a Texan fan has prepared me for the Texans going after 2nd tier less talented guys in FA. While overpaying for said FA.

Man Smith stinks at his job.

drs23
07-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Well, we've NOT been to the AFC Championship game like the Jets have.

Aso doesn't strike me as the type of NFL player who is strictly about the money. He's known as a smart guy, savvy thinker. To him, he's going to choose the place that has the best payoff in both money AND chances at a title.

As much as it means to us Texans fans to have a decent d-coord, I'm not so sure that Aso stakes the latter part of his career upon the Texans turning it around with his help.

If anything, it seems more logical that he'd find a place where the defense is already dominant and he can add the final nail to a coffin. Just going on past history, over the past 2-3 years, I'd say New York Jets fits that bill.

Ravens would be another choice IF the Ravens were inclined to go that route.

I'm 50-50 on this. My longstanding desire was to get the guy here. But I've slowly warmed to the idea of adding one or two other upper-tier CBs, or adding an upper-tier CB and an upper-tier S to the team. Strength in numbers, so to speak.

If we do nothing, then I'm going to burn this board down. You've all been warned. LOL.

GP, I'm not so sure the Jets can pull that off. Did a little Google research and found this (http://www.examiner.com/new-york-jets-in-new-york/inside-the-numbers-ny-jets-salary-cap-questions-answered). They're in "cap hell" right now according to the #'s which someone (CND?) had posted earlier. And they still have several FAs that they want to retain. They would have to gut quite a bit to ink Aso. Same with several other clubs.

Not saying I don't want him in Steel Blue but we're kinda in the same boat as the NY Jets with the cap thingy.

I see alot more return on a Joseph/Weddell inking than snagging Aso. I know that's not a popular stance but sometimes ya gotta do what ain't what everyone else wants to do.

With a "hard floor & ceiling" on the horizon I think Aso's "going where ever he wants to go" is going to run into some fiscal harsh reality

All this is just MHO. We'll see how it shakes out but I'd not be disappointed to end up with Joseph/Weddell/and some ILB help.

(6!) Did I mention I'm gettin' giddy 'cause "I'm ready for some Football"? :D

CloakNNNdagger
07-16-2011, 05:00 PM
I just awakened from a TERRIBLE NIGHTMARE. Good CBs are always in want. Most teams could use a/another good CB, and I believe there will be alot more bidders for the bigger names than what I am feeling is the general perception. With this year's ultra-shortened FA period, if Aso doesn't sign with us, it is not a given that we will haul in ANY of the "lessers," let alone two. If that result comes to be, you can put a fork in it..........and please someone put me back to sleep!...........at least through THIS season!:gun:

Maddict5
07-16-2011, 06:48 PM
GP, I'm not so sure the Jets can pull that off. Did a little Google research and found this (http://www.examiner.com/new-york-jets-in-new-york/inside-the-numbers-ny-jets-salary-cap-questions-answered). They're in "cap hell" right now according to the #'s which someone (CND?) had posted earlier. And they still have several FAs that they want to retain. They would have to gut quite a bit to ink Aso. Same with several other clubs.

Not saying I don't want him in Steel Blue but we're kinda in the same boat as the NY Jets with the cap thingy.

I see alot more return on a Joseph/Weddell inking than snagging Aso. I know that's not a popular stance but sometimes ya gotta do what ain't what everyone else wants to do.

With a "hard floor & ceiling" on the horizon I think Aso's "going where ever he wants to go" is going to run into some fiscal harsh reality

All this is just MHO. We'll see how it shakes out but I'd not be disappointed to end up with Joseph/Weddell/and some ILB help.

(6!) Did I mention I'm gettin' giddy 'cause "I'm ready for some Football"? :D

not disagreeing with you but i dont rly understand how we're so tight to the cap right now... if you look at it we dont have many big contracts or cuts that we're still paying for.. the jets have signed & traded for alot of big names recently

schaub has an average contract for a qb, rbs are below avg contract wise, aj has a decent contract but not huge- the rest of the wrs are cheap, same with od & the te's. winston is the only o-lineman with a somewhat big contract

then on defence, mario, demeco & antonio are the only ones with decent-big contracts. even cush & kareem as first rounders are pretty inexpensive... what am i missing?

badboy
07-16-2011, 06:55 PM
not disagreeing with you but i dont rly understand how we're so tight to the cap right now... if you look at it we dont have many big contracts or cuts that we're still paying for.. the jets have signed & traded for alot of big names recently

schaub has an average contract for a qb, rbs are below avg contract wise, aj has a decent contract but not huge- the rest of the wrs are cheap, same with od & the te's. winston is the only o-lineman with a somewhat big contract

then on defence, mario, demeco & antonio are the only ones with decent-big contracts. even cush & kareem as first rounders are pretty inexpensive... what am i missing?Nothing. You are correct.

ObsiWan
07-16-2011, 11:43 PM
I just awakened from a TERRIBLE NIGHTMARE. Good CBs are always in want. Most teams could use a/another good CB, and I believe there will be alot more bidders for the bigger names than what I am feeling is the general perception. With this year's ultra-shortened FA period, if Aso doesn't sign with us, it is not a given that we will haul in ANY of the "lessers," let alone two. If that result comes to be, you can put a fork in it..........and please someone put me back to sleep!...........at least through THIS season!:gun:
actually, that isn't an unreasonable scenario

CloakNNNdagger
07-17-2011, 08:52 AM
the more i read about ike taylor, the more i think he will be the guy we get in FA... despite him being a non big name like aso or a young talented guy like joseph & grimes, most experts agree hes the best press man cb after nnamdi.

hes extremely consistent, experienced & is a good tackler, comes from a winning franchise etc. add it all together plus the fact he wont be signed to a monster contract.. it ties in with other recent FA moves i.e. good players that arent big names that generally leave most fans underwhelmed..

i think we should be preparing ourselves for this happening

You might be interested in this recent piece. Although his re-signing by the Steelers is very questionable, they will try.

Signing Taylor looms as Steelers' top priority (http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/fbn-steelers070711/fbn-steelers070711/)

Here is how Taylor stacks up against Asomugha, Joseph and Cromartie.

-- Taylor is the best of the bunch in run support with 481 career tackles. He has 11 career interceptions but never has been selected to the Pro Bowl.

-- Asomugha is a four-time Pro Bowl selection, has 11 career interceptions and 310 tackles. He entered the league the same year as Taylor, 2003.

-- Joseph, who entered the league in '06, has 14 career interceptions and 272 tackles, but has missed 12 games over the past three seasons with injuries.

-- Cromartie, who also entered the league in '06, has 18 career interceptions and 207 tackles. He made the Pro Bowl in '07.

badboy
07-17-2011, 10:45 AM
I have not watched Taylor much but isn't he the same type CB that Dunta Robinson was?

steelbtexan
07-17-2011, 11:50 AM
I have not watched Taylor much but isn't he the same type CB that Dunta Robinson was?

Pretty much, except Taylor is a little better in coverage and not quite as good as Dunta in run support.

What bothers me about Taylor is that last time he signed a contract with a big raise his level of play dropped and he got benched by Cowher. (?) That dose of reality made him raise his level of play.

Could you see Gary/Wade doing this? I cant

He would be an upgrade over the current CB's though. Of course any of the tier 1-2 FA CB's would be a massive upgrade over the steaming pile that were the Texans CB's last yr. Great decision to go young at CB last yr Rick. You should be fired for subjecting Texans fans to that steaming pile of crap last yr.

DocBar
07-17-2011, 11:58 AM
Pretty much, except Taylor is a little better in coverage and not quite as good as Dunta in run support.

What bothers me about Taylor is that last time he signed a contract with a big raise his level of play dropped and he got benched by Cowher. (?) That dose of reality made him raise his level of play.

Could you see Gary/Wade doing this? I cant

He would be an upgrade over the current CB's though. Of course any of the tier 1-2 FA CB's would be a massive upgrade over the steaming pile that were the Texans CB's last yr. Great decision to go young at CB last yr Rick. You should be fired for subjecting Texans fans to that steaming pile of crap last yr.That would be a definitive NO for Joseph over Aso.

drs23
07-17-2011, 01:13 PM
not disagreeing with you but i dont rly understand how we're so tight to the cap right now... if you look at it we dont have many big contracts or cuts that we're still paying for.. the jets have signed & traded for alot of big names recently

schaub has an average contract for a qb, rbs are below avg contract wise, aj has a decent contract but not huge- the rest of the wrs are cheap, same with od & the te's. winston is the only o-lineman with a somewhat big contract

then on defence, mario, demeco & antonio are the only ones with decent-big contracts. even cush & kareem as first rounders are pretty inexpensive... what am i missing?

As badboy says, you're missing nothing. I made a major assumption mistake by having read several times that the Texans had the 3rd highest payroll in the NFL. We all know what they say about 'assumptions'. :D

I went here (http://rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/hou/?rw=1) to get a really rough payroll for 2011. If I punched the number correctly I came up with $68,904,000. That doesn't include garanteed money (don't know how much that is but it seems it would raise the total some anyway) but does include salaries for some players that might not be on the team this season. It also doesn't include any rookies since they've yet to be signed.

If this is anywhere near reality I guess the Texans can sign anybody and everybody that they think they might need and not look back.

On top of all of this I was catching up on NFL Access and Albert Breer in his interview states that the cap won't be a "hard cap". Don't remember his exact phrase but something along the lines of a "floating" or "balloon" cap. I've erased it already or I would watch it again to see exactly what he said. Perhaps someone else saw it and can add what was said.

I guess the bottom line is if the FO doesn't pull out all the stops and the checkbook to get us the help we need and some quality backups; then McNair's cheap! :D

edo783
07-17-2011, 07:51 PM
On top of all of this I was catching up on NFL Access and Albert Breer in his interview states that the cap won't be a "hard cap". Don't remember his exact phrase but something along the lines of a "floating" or "balloon" cap. I've erased it already or I would watch it again to see exactly what he said. Perhaps someone else saw it and can add what was said. :D

Jason LaConfor (sp) said something along those lines also. He said the cap was expected to be about 123 mill, but teams could spend pretty much what they wanted to and made the comment 'the rich just get richer", just had to spend at least 90% of the 123 mill. I'm not sure if that spend "What they want to" thing is just for this year or not.

badboy
07-17-2011, 08:53 PM
Last season was an uncapped year & I wonder how the NFL owners did profit wise? texans sure did not go crazy spending money but maybe the free agents werre not as enticing as this year. I am hopeful as others have mentioned that other teams have to let some productive players go. Reminds me a bit of the June first cuts we used to look forward to but maybe more and better players will show on market.

cland
07-18-2011, 07:07 PM
I went here to get a really rough payroll for 2011. If I punched the number correctly I came up with $68,904,000. That doesn't include garanteed money (don't know how much that is but it seems it would raise the total some anyway) but does include salaries for some players that might not be on the team this season. It also doesn't include any rookies since they've yet to be signed.

That number isn't close to being right, as it doesn't include major items as signing bonuses, incentive terms, etc. This article has us at 118 million (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/37327/looking-at-2011-salary-cap-figures) and ranks us at 6th most expensive team in the NFL. I don't know exactly how accurate that is, but I believe it's much closer that the 69 million number you posted.

Also La Canfora's latest update says the cap will be 120 million with the addition of a one player 3 million dollar exemption. Link (http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/07/steelers-potential-2011-salary-cap-casualties/) There may be some smaller exceptions, but the league is certainly not allowing a 'soft cap' similar to baseball.

drs23
07-18-2011, 07:54 PM
That number isn't close to being right, as it doesn't include major items as signing bonuses, incentive terms, etc. This article has us at 118 million (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/37327/looking-at-2011-salary-cap-figures) and ranks us at 6th most expensive team in the NFL. I don't know exactly how accurate that is, but I believe it's much closer that the 69 million number you posted.

Also La Canfora's latest update says the cap will be 120 million with the addition of a one player 3 million dollar exemption. Link (http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/07/steelers-potential-2011-salary-cap-casualties/) There may be some smaller exceptions, but the league is certainly not allowing a 'soft cap' similar to baseball.

Mr. cland, I thought I was pretty clear that it was really difficult to determine exactly where the Texans stand. I also stated that prior reports had us at the THIRD highest payroll.

Fact of the matter is: No one outside of Reliant actually knows for a fact where the Texans stand as far as the cap goes. You report a 3 mil "exemeption". That sounds more accurate but the report I was listing to I *thought* said 30mil. Granted I was half asleep, with no eyes and only one ear open. It was late.:foottap: Granted, even then I thought it didn't make much sense but then, none of this shit has, to me.

The 120mil w/3mil exemtion adds up to the 123mil figure that's been tossed around. Granted.

Bottom line is there are web sites out there that say Cush doesn't cost a dime this year as well as many other player which is just pure BS.

Guess we'll hafta wait until we know what's really up before we know what's really up.

I really like my figures better though 'cause then we can get everybody we want!:fingergun:

DocBar
07-19-2011, 01:18 AM
Salary cap talk makes my head want to explode!!!!:bomb:

SteveSlaton20
07-19-2011, 02:41 AM
I'd love to get either one, and I'd love to get a good safety also, but if Aso says yes to us, I'd sign him in a second. Aso is probably future HOF player, and you can't miss out on that. JJ is awesome too, but Aso beats him any day even w/o a good safety.

Allstar
07-19-2011, 02:48 AM
The only reason I wouldn't want Jonathan Joseph on our team is because when people type JJ I won't know if they are talking about him, Jacoby or JJ Watt :fingergun:

DocBar
07-19-2011, 03:49 AM
The only reason I wouldn't want Jonathan Joseph on our team is because when people type JJ I won't know if they are talking about him, Jacoby or JJ Watt :fingergun: JJdb, JJde, JJsux. That should clear it up for you a bit. :fingergun:

Rey
07-19-2011, 03:19 PM
How is this not the case for any team in the NFL? There are 32 teams and they all have something to offer; including the chance of winning, money, and innumerable intangibles.

The idea that we are some loser organization that has no chance at landing a quality free agent aside from offering above-market cash is flawed and dated.

Disagree with everything here except the part about being a loser organization which isn't debatable because it's a fact.

If FA's are potential dog owners looking at puppies, the Texans are not pick of the litter for most guys. Now that part is JMO.

I don't think we'd be considered the runt, but I don't think they'd look at us and say that the champion bloodline is strong in that one.

cland
07-29-2011, 03:15 AM
Looks like we're about to see if J Joseph + D Manning = N Asomugha. I'm really exited about the signings.

Corrosion
07-29-2011, 04:33 AM
Im happier than a punk in a peter patch with todays events regarding the Texans. :hobie:

SAMURAITEXAN
07-29-2011, 04:37 AM
I am very happy. Made my day Texans!!!

Go Texans!!!

hradhak
07-29-2011, 07:18 AM
My guess is the math goes something like this J Joseph + D Manning > N Aso.

Aso is a great corner, but he is only one guy and can only cover one person at a time. Manning's good against the run and the pass. He's a signficant upgrade over Pollard.

Seņor Stan
07-29-2011, 08:10 AM
My guess is the math goes something like this J Joseph + D Manning > N Aso.

Aso is a great corner, but he is only one guy and can only cover one person at a time. Manning's good against the run and the pass. He's a signficant upgrade over Pollard.

plus he can lay the wood...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKA7NbBvdjA&feature=related

beerlover
07-29-2011, 08:55 AM
maybe because Joseph came from the same school as Dunta Robinson but pre-major reconstructive surgery they were very similar players, anybody who thinks a player will ever be as explosive & dynamic after a thing like Dunta experienced is crazy. This was a discussion many times in the past but Dunta in his prime was considered, close to one of the top 5 corners. Same now with Joseph.

the key to this question is addition of Manning because Texans still had enough cap room to sign a starting quality safety. I also feel if Aso really wanted to be a Texan, he would be one today. The two new Texans are excited & happy to be here, we have a new secondary coach named Joseph plus three rookie draft picks to develop in what is now a crowded & talented secondary.

BIG TORO
07-29-2011, 09:20 AM
JJdb, JJde, JJsux. That should clear it up for you a bit. :fingergun:

We now have the

J. Crew!

infantrycak
07-29-2011, 09:22 AM
This was a discussion many times in the past but Dunta in his prime was considered, close to one of the top 5 corners.

No offense but that is whack revisionist history. Only a few people were ever upset Dunta didn't make the pro-bowl and that is 6 corners right there. I don't recall him ever even being named as an alternate. Don't get me wrong, I loved watching him play but he has never sniffed top 5 corner. Aaron Glenn at the tail end of his career was clearly better than Dunta. In his prime it wasn't even close.

beerlover
07-29-2011, 09:54 AM
No offense but that is whack revisionist history. Only a few people were ever upset Dunta didn't make the pro-bowl and that is 6 corners right there. I don't recall him ever even being named as an alternate. Don't get me wrong, I loved watching him play but he has never sniffed top 5 corner. Aaron Glenn at the tail end of his career was clearly better than Dunta. In his prime it wasn't even close.

Dunta was an ascending player with a bright future once upon a time. He learned alot from Glenn (who was my favorite Texan player up to that point/terrible move by old FO not to resign Aaron) he stepped up in leadership role & layed his body on the line every single play. Playing hard w/his contract year ahead sure looked like his body of work would receive top 5 CB contract but his career threatening acl tear & calf muscle ripped off the bone ended his dreams & led to assertion of one of the worst secondary's in the history of NFL. He returned a year later, but was never the same player even though he signed for similar big free agent money as Joseph his way out to Atlanta. I understand Joseph had some high ankle sprain problems but nothing nearly as serious so his career can hopefully stay on track. Very similar players headed in different directions, using Dunta for a reference point for fellow Texan fans so they know how similar players they are (JJ is more like DROB pre-injury) in my own twisted viewpoint a borderline top 5 or 6 CB talent. :wesmantexanfan:

aussie_texan
07-29-2011, 09:56 AM
joseph is better because his a TEXAN!!!

Rey
07-29-2011, 03:20 PM
Dunta was an ascending player with a bright future once upon a time. He learned alot from Glenn (who was my favorite Texan player up to that point/terrible move by old FO not to resign Aaron) he stepped up in leadership role & layed his body on the line every single play. Playing hard w/his contract year ahead sure looked like his body of work would receive top 5 CB contract but his career threatening acl tear & calf muscle ripped off the bone ended his dreams & led to assertion of one of the worst secondary's in the history of NFL. He returned a year later, but was never the same player even though he signed for similar big free agent money as Joseph his way out to Atlanta. I understand Joseph had some high ankle sprain problems but nothing nearly as serious so his career can hopefully stay on track. Very similar players headed in different directions, using Dunta for a reference point for fellow Texan fans so they know how similar players they are (JJ is more like DROB pre-injury) in my own twisted viewpoint a borderline top 5 or 6 CB talent. :wesmantexanfan:

I agree. But I think that Joseph is better than drob was when he was at his best.

The year dunta got hurt he was looking extremely good. When he came back he was not the same.

DX-TEX
07-29-2011, 03:22 PM
Looks like we're about to see if J Joseph + D Manning = N Asomugha. I'm really exited about the signings.

Leaving already?

jk

c10x
07-29-2011, 03:28 PM
I hope so. Looking like it.

Norg
07-29-2011, 03:34 PM
well stats wise Aso is a better PLayer ... just saying

scourge
07-29-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm still wanting us to sign William Gay.

Not because he's any good, but to see how many of the fans who were so proud to call themselves part of the Arian Nation start calling themselves proud members of the Gay Nation... Just sayin'

DocBar
07-29-2011, 03:44 PM
The D is starting to resemble the O on '07. Right on the edge of being very good. The D might not break top 10 this season, but I'm thinking easily top 10 on 12 and beyond. We are flat out loaded with young talent. Some good coaching and add some depth, watch out NFL.

BIG TORO
07-29-2011, 03:47 PM
I hope so. Looking like it.

Rep on avatar! Damn!

mariowillshine15
07-29-2011, 03:49 PM
well stats wise Aso is a better PLayer ... just saying

Actually according to ESPNs KC Joyner Joseph has been the better corner over the last two years.

beerlover
07-29-2011, 03:50 PM
I agree. But I think that Joseph is better than drob was when he was at his best.

I really think its a push & up to Dunta Robinson major the one thing that's afflicted Joseph are nagging injury's so IMO it's too close to call.


The year dunta got hurt he was looking extremely good. When he came back he was not the same.

This is what I've said all along & reason why his demands would never be made aside from anything personal with "pay me Rick".

c10x
07-30-2011, 10:59 AM
Rep on avatar! Damn!

Keyra Augustina.

Her google image search is both NSFW, and glorious.

BigBull17
07-30-2011, 12:37 PM
Is J Jo a better cb than Aso, no. Is J Jo and Manning better for our team than just Aso, yes.

Doppelganger
07-30-2011, 01:55 PM
I'm still wanting us to sign William Gay.

Not because he's any good, but to see how many of the fans who were so proud to call themselves part of the Arian Nation start calling themselves proud members of the Gay Nation... Just sayin'

Better yet: How many Texans fans would proudly walk into Reliant stadium wearing a jersey that read GAY on the back!!!