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View Full Version : Ok so lets lay this to rest. By Stats and not personal opinons on our CB's


EllisUnit
06-28-2011, 07:39 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2011/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2010

Bottom 10 Cornerbacks in Yards per Pass, 2010
Player Team Charted
Targets Yd/Pass Rk Avg. Pass
Distance YAC Rk Success
Rate Rk
Kareem Jackson HOU 73 11.1 83 15.3 6.0 83 47% 67
Alphonso Smith DET 47 10.6 82 14.4 4.8 76 47% 66
DeAngelo Hall WAS 88 10.5 81 10.4 5.8 81 39% 82
Mike Jenkins DAL 80 10.5 80 15.3 4.3 66 40% 78
Fabian Washington BAL 43 10.4 79 11.1 5.9 82 40% 79
Rashean Mathis JAC 64 10.1 78 14.1 4.9 79 44% 72
Jonathan Wade 2TM 40 9.9 77 15.7 2.7 16 38% 83
Eric Wright CLE 53 9.8 76 12.5 4.6 71 43% 73
Jacob Lacey IND 44 9.5 75 10.3 4.5 69 39% 81
Jason Allen 2TM 58 9.3 74 16.7 3.4 39 52% 46

Jason Allen actually had his best season in 2010, especially after Miami released him and Houston picked him up. His high yards per pass figure comes from just a handful of plays, mostly by Braylon Edwards. For some reason, Allen was dominated by Edwards, who had receptions of 67, 42, and 27 yards against Allen in two games (one with Miami, one with Houston).


http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/5732/kareem-jackson?rw=1

Texans RCB Kareem Jackson was burned for touchdown passes of 28 and 55 yards in length by Seyi Ajirotutu in Houston's Week 9 loss.
Jackson is a first-round rookie out of Alabama; Ajirotutu went undrafted out of Fresno State. The Texans' rookie insists he hasn't lost his confidence, but we've got to believe otherwise. He's been getting burned all year. Texans DC Frank Bush will have to consider benching Jackson in the near future.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5754/seyi-ajirotutu


Week Date Opp Rec Yds Avg TD Rush Yds Avg TD Lost Yds TD Yds TD
1 Sep 13 @KC 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 Sep 19 JAC 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3 Sep 26 @SEA 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 Oct 3 ARZ 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
5 Oct 10 @OAK 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6 Oct 17 @STL 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
7 Oct 24 NE 2 26 13.0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
8 Oct 31 TEN 3 48 16.0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
9 Nov 7 @HOU 4 111 27.8 2 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11 Nov 22 DEN 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12 Nov 28 @IND 1 16 16.0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
13 Dec 5 OAK 2 44 22.0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
14 Dec 12 KC 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15 Dec 16 SF 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16 Dec 26 @CIN 0 0 .0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0
17 Jan 2 @DEN 1 17 17.0 0 0 0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0



Read all of it the stats say Jackson was the NFLs 2nd worst CB - First being Hall of the Skins. As u will notice Jason Allen is also on the list but ranked 40 spots above Jackson. Take this for what its worth but i'm done arguing about it. I cant change ur opinion just like u cant change mine our the stats that say he was worse.

Dutchrudder
06-29-2011, 12:14 AM
So what youre saying is that he Can only get better from here on out? I like your optimism!

Lucky
06-29-2011, 12:22 AM
From the article linked above:

The other thing we see on this list was the complete implosion of the Dallas secondary this season. There were some injury issues, but Mike Jenkins (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16205/mike-jenkins) and Terence Newman (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16591/terence-newman) were horrible all season.
These were Wade's CBs. They struggled despite having a better pass rush than the Texans had. There are some who believe Phillips can turn these Texan CB lemons into lemonade. I'm thinking the Texans need to find some proven talent.

EllisUnit
06-30-2011, 03:35 PM
So what youre saying is that he Can only get better from here on out? I like your optimism!

No unfortunately at a position like CB it can always get worse

2slik4u
06-30-2011, 04:32 PM
No unfortunately at a position like CB it can always get worse

Bro, I dont think many people are arguing that KJ didnt suck last year. Thats not what anyone is saying.

HE WAS A ROOKIE CORNERBACK.

CB, along with QB are the two most difficult positions to play as a rookie (from what Ive read). When you stick a rookie CB on an island and put him against veteran #1 WR's with NO pass rush.....what results do you expect.

The only thing I argued, and will continue to argue, is that he is a rookie. Give him a couple of years before you ship him off and declare him the worst CB that ever played the game. Its ridiculous for you to think that one year, his first year at pro-level, will sum up his ability to play football.

All I have said since day one is lets put a little better supporting cast around him, give him another year or two and see what happens. If he is performing around the same level in year three as he did in year one, then yes, ship him off.

That's my argument.

thunderkyss
06-30-2011, 05:47 PM
From the article linked above:


These were Wade's CBs. They struggled despite having a better pass rush than the Texans had. There are some who believe Phillips can turn these Texan CB lemons into lemonade. I'm thinking the Texans need to find some proven talent.

This makes more sense, a lot more sense. Let's go get two more experienced corners. Bring in three.

But to think Allen is a better prospect than KJac just because he didn't suck as much after 5 years in the league makes no sense at all.

But there's no arguing with some people.

thunderkyss
06-30-2011, 05:56 PM
The only thing I argued, and will continue to argue, is that he is a rookie. Give him a couple of years before you ship him off and declare him the worst CB that ever played the game. Its ridiculous for you to think that one year, his first year at pro-level, will sum up his ability to play football.

All I have said since day one is lets put a little better supporting cast around him, give him another year or two and see what happens. If he is performing around the same level in year three as he did in year one, then yes, ship him off.

That's my argument.

Makes sense to me.

Perhaps we should compare Jason Allen's rookie season to KJac's rookie season & see what that looks like.

Kareem started 16 games, 10 passes defensed, 2 Ints, 71 tackles.
Allen, 0 games started, 1 pass defensed, 1 Int, 20 tackles.

If Allen can go from that to the stud he was in 2010, KJac is going to be the best shutdown corner the league has ever seen in 2015.

DocBar
06-30-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm glad you're going to quit arguing. My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts.:voodoo:

EllisUnit
06-30-2011, 08:23 PM
Bro, I dont think many people are arguing that KJ didnt suck last year. Thats not what anyone is saying.

HE WAS A ROOKIE CORNERBACK.

CB, along with QB are the two most difficult positions to play as a rookie (from what Ive read). When you stick a rookie CB on an island and put him against veteran #1 WR's with NO pass rush.....what results do you expect.

The only thing I argued, and will continue to argue, is that he is a rookie. Give him a couple of years before you ship him off and declare him the worst CB that ever played the game. Its ridiculous for you to think that one year, his first year at pro-level, will sum up his ability to play football.

All I have said since day one is lets put a little better supporting cast around him, give him another year or two and see what happens. If he is performing around the same level in year three as he did in year one, then yes, ship him off.

That's my argument.

i'm not saying ship him off. i believe he deserves another chance, BUT he shouldnt automatically be handed the starting job. AJ is getting older and i think everyone wants to win NOW. I dont think we should take ANOTHER chance that he will cut it/improve this season. We need a FA and whoever shows the most in training camp to be the #2-3 CBs. Thats all i'm saying.

Hervoyel
06-30-2011, 08:24 PM
I don't have an opinion on KJ or Allen at this point. Clearly Allen was better than KJ last year but you can't find anything useful with that knowledge unless you can put it in context.

KJ was a rookie. That can work both ways. You can't assume that he'll get better because busts everywhere stay lousy for years. If he's not a complete bust then yes, he should absolutely get better.

Allen did better than he's ever done before after coming to the Texans. That can also work both ways. Sure, after five years you can say that everyone knows what he's capable of. At the same time he's spent his entire career in Miami, played for three different head coaches in 5 years, and never settled into either a CB or FS role. I'm not saying he's going to surprise anyone but he wouldn't be the first player to do nothing of note in his first stop in the NFL and then straighten up when given a change of scenery.

I believe that it would be a mistake to close the book on either one of them. There are legitimate reasons why each one may have failed to deliver on their respective potential. If our much lauded defensive coaching changes were even close to as good as we've been told they were then it's entirely plausible that one or both of these players might turn it around.

If we haven't fixed the coaching problems on that side of the ball then they're both assured of continuing to suck.

They'd both look real good fighting for the starting spot opposite Aso IMO ;)

HJam72
06-30-2011, 09:44 PM
I'm going to argue on both sides of this debate so I can go back to one old post or another someday and look smart.

Just kidding; I'm to lazy to do that.

2slik4u
06-30-2011, 09:52 PM
i'm not saying ship him off. i believe he deserves another chance, BUT he shouldnt automatically be handed the starting job. AJ is getting older and i think everyone wants to win NOW. I dont think we should take ANOTHER chance that he will cut it/improve this season. We need a FA and whoever shows the most in training camp to be the #2-3 CBs. Thats all i'm saying.

Agreed. If I had it my way, we would bring in a stud vet CB that would shore up that side of the field and the rest seems to fall into place.

I seriously think we are one great acquisition away from being a very good football team.

2slik4u
06-30-2011, 09:54 PM
I don't have an opinion on KJ or Allen at this point. Clearly Allen was better than KJ last year but you can't find anything useful with that knowledge unless you can put it in context.

KJ was a rookie. That can work both ways. You can't assume that he'll get better because busts everywhere stay lousy for years. If he's not a complete bust then yes, he should absolutely get better.

Allen did better than he's ever done before after coming to the Texans. That can also work both ways. Sure, after five years you can say that everyone knows what he's capable of. At the same time he's spent his entire career in Miami, played for three different head coaches in 5 years, and never settled into either a CB or FS role. I'm not saying he's going to surprise anyone but he wouldn't be the first player to do nothing of note in his first stop in the NFL and then straighten up when given a change of scenery.

I believe that it would be a mistake to close the book on either one of them. There are legitimate reasons why each one may have failed to deliver on their respective potential. If our much lauded defensive coaching changes were even close to as good as we've been told they were then it's entirely plausible that one or both of these players might turn it around.

If we haven't fixed the coaching problems on that side of the ball then they're both assured of continuing to suck.

They'd both look real good fighting for the starting spot opposite Aso IMO ;)

Outstanding post. Rep.

CloakNNNdagger
06-30-2011, 11:09 PM
I don't have an opinion on KJ or Allen at this point. Clearly Allen was better than KJ last year but you can't find anything useful with that knowledge unless you can put it in context.

KJ was a rookie. That can work both ways. You can't assume that he'll get better because busts everywhere stay lousy for years. If he's not a complete bust then yes, he should absolutely get better.

Allen did better than he's ever done before after coming to the Texans. That can also work both ways. Sure, after five years you can say that everyone knows what he's capable of. At the same time he's spent his entire career in Miami, played for three different head coaches in 5 years, and never settled into either a CB or FS role. I'm not saying he's going to surprise anyone but he wouldn't be the first player to do nothing of note in his first stop in the NFL and then straighten up when given a change of scenery.

I believe that it would be a mistake to close the book on either one of them. There are legitimate reasons why each one may have failed to deliver on their respective potential. If our much lauded defensive coaching changes were even close to as good as we've been told they were then it's entirely plausible that one or both of these players might turn it around.

If we haven't fixed the coaching problems on that side of the ball then they're both assured of continuing to suck.

They'd both look real good fighting for the starting spot opposite Aso IMO ;)

Rep coming your way. I would not be surprised in the least if either or both end up "persons of interest" in 2011.

Lucky
07-01-2011, 12:38 AM
...BUT he shouldnt automatically be handed the starting job...Thats all i'm saying.
That's the essence of the "anti" Kareem argument.

1) Jackson sucked in 2010. Hard.
2) Without OTAs or minicamps, there's no compelling evidence that Jackson has improved.
3) Jackson should earn a job in 2011, as opposed to being handed a job in 2010.

What's so contentious about that? From everything I've heard from Phillips, Jackson has a lot of questions to answer. Drafting 2 CBs and probably picking up more in free agency tells me even more. I don't hate Kareem. I just want the best players on the field.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2011, 07:46 AM
No one underperforming should be allowed to escape ongoing real time re-evaluation of their playing status (especially the starting positions), something the Texans have had a difficult time doing.

gtexan02
07-01-2011, 08:06 AM
Does anyone really expect Allen to play well again?

Weve had at least 3 DBs come in midseason and play well, get contracts, and then get progressively worse.

Hervoyel
07-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Does anyone really expect Allen to play well again?

Weve had at least 3 DBs come in midseason and play well, get contracts, and then get progressively worse.


It would seem like the odds are against him playing well again but the law of averages says sooner or later someone is going to come here, sign a contract, and not suck the very next year.

I can't say it will be Allen but it might be. We can't get them all wrong.

Wait, can we?

thunderkyss
07-01-2011, 01:56 PM
That's the essence of the "anti" Kareem argument.

1) Jackson sucked in 2010. Hard.
2) Without OTAs or minicamps, there's no compelling evidence that Jackson has improved.
3) Jackson should earn a job in 2011, as opposed to being handed a job in 2010.

What's so contentious about that? From everything I've heard from Phillips, Jackson has a lot of questions to answer. Drafting 2 CBs and probably picking up more in free agency tells me even more. I don't hate Kareem. I just want the best players on the field.

I can agree with this as well. But I would also add that the same applies for Jason Allen. He should not be handed a starting job just because he has more years than Kareem. He still sucks.

I've seen a story somewhere, saying that Wade likes McCain anyway.. something he saw on tape. For all we know, McCain is the front runner but all three will be competing for the job opposite whoever we get in FA.

Lucky
07-01-2011, 10:30 PM
I've seen a story somewhere, saying that Wade likes McCain anyway.. something he saw on tape.
It can't be from 2010 game tape, because all that's there is a whole lot McCain suckitude.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2011, 10:45 PM
I can agree with this as well. But I would also add that the same applies for Jason Allen. He should not be handed a starting job just because he has more years than Kareem. He still sucks.

I've seen a story somewhere, saying that Wade likes McCain anyway.. something he saw on tape. For all we know, McCain is the front runner but all three will be competing for the job opposite whoever we get in FA.

It can't be from 2010 game tape, because all that's there is a whole lot McCain suckitude.

It wasn't Wade. It was Joseph that made the positive comments after reviewing film.

Joseph gets to know DBs through film study (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Joseph-gets-to-know-DBs-through-film-study/d2991619-85ea-4808-98d8-f9ef490dc4be)By Nick Scurfield

Posted May 26, 2011

In a typical offseason, Vance Joseph would be getting to know his players the old-fashioned way mini-camps and OTAs, meetings and practices.

Instead, the Texans new defensive backs coach is familiarizing himself with them the only way he can: Film study. Lots of it.

I like Brice, Joseph said. I watched every practice from last year, camp and the fall, and watching the one-on-one stuff, Brice was one of our better one-on-one players from playing press and playing off-man. Hes got a unique skill which is speed that we can always use. And McManis is a tough guy. Thats his unique quality, and toughness wins games. Speed wins games. So those qualities are definitely going to be used. I like both of those guys.

Lucky
07-01-2011, 11:32 PM
I like Brice, Joseph said. I watched every practice from last year, camp and the fall...I asked Allen Iverson what he thought about Joseph's comments on McCain:

http://www.phillysportsblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/iverson-3.jpg
Were talking about practice? I mean listen, were sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, not a game, but were talking about practice? How silly is that? I know its important, I honestly do but were talking about practice. Were talking about practice man. Were talking about practice. Were talking about practice. Were not talking about the game. Were talking about practice. Hey I hear you, its funny to me too, hey its strange to me too but were talking about practice man, were not even talking about the game, when it actually matters, were talking about practice...

beerlover
07-05-2011, 03:13 PM
stats need to be taken like a grain of salt (moderation) in regards to the last two years of Frank Bush defenses. I've always thought Brice had the skill set & of all Texan CB's flashed best cover skills (not saying much) in terms of staying located in position to make a play. The problem has been why he hasn't been able to make that play? Is it because of perfectly thrown balls over the back shoulder? is it his lack of size/height 5087? whatever it is, I love his attitude & work ethic. I think he is still capable of developing into a starting CB, under a good coordinator, Wade & coached by Joseph who believes in him.

disaacks3
07-05-2011, 03:39 PM
That's the essence of the "anti" Kareem argument.

1) Jackson sucked in 2010. Hard.
2) Without OTAs or minicamps, there's no compelling evidence that Jackson has improved.
3) Jackson should earn a job in 2011, as opposed to being handed a job in 2010.
What's so contentious about that? From everything I've heard from Phillips, Jackson has a lot of questions to answer. Drafting 2 CBs and probably picking up more in free agency tells me even more. I don't hate Kareem. I just want the best players on the field.

I hope EVERYBODY on the Defense isn't a shoo-in due to the coaching changes alone. Phillips has no draft picks invested in the guys he's being handed prior to 2011. Let's hope having 'no dog in the hunt' works out for us.

badboy
07-05-2011, 03:43 PM
Bro, I dont think many people are arguing that KJ didnt suck last year. Thats not what anyone is saying.

HE WAS A ROOKIE CORNERBACK.

CB, along with QB are the two most difficult positions to play as a rookie (from what Ive read). When you stick a rookie CB on an island and put him against veteran #1 WR's with NO pass rush.....what results do you expect.

The only thing I argued, and will continue to argue, is that he is a rookie. Give him a couple of years before you ship him off and declare him the worst CB that ever played the game. Its ridiculous for you to think that one year, his first year at pro-level, will sum up his ability to play football.

All I have said since day one is lets put a little better supporting cast around him, give him another year or two and see what happens. If he is performing around the same level in year three as he did in year one, then yes, ship him off.

That's my argument.And if your arguement is he will get better just because he is on field more, I think you are wrong as only minor improvement will occur. KJ has the wrong skill sets for what we need. He should be taught to stay off the WR and not "bump". He has speed to turn and run but not to recover if he misses the bump or gets "shaked & baked" by a wiley WR. Wade can correct KJ (unless rookie is shell shocked & I doubt that) & I am hopeful as I do not want to have a wasted first round.

badboy
07-05-2011, 03:45 PM
stats need to be taken like a grain of salt (moderation) in regards to the last two years of Frank Bush defenses. I've always thought Brice had the skill set & of all Texan CB's flashed best cover skills (not saying much) in terms of staying located in position to make a play. The problem has been why he hasn't been able to make that play? Is it because of perfectly thrown balls over the back shoulder? is it his lack of size/height 5087? whatever it is, I love his attitude & work ethic. I think he is still capable of developing into a starting CB, under a good coordinator, Wade & coached by Joseph who believes in him.

:goodpost: unfortunately, McCain may not make final roster.

beerlover
07-05-2011, 04:25 PM
:goodpost: unfortunately, McCain may not make final roster.

Texans secondary strength, if you can project one? is in some type of nickle package. we seem to have a collection of nickle cb's starting with Kareem, Glover, Harris & McCain. they seem to think "Rock" Carmichael can fill one edge, but shouldn't we be leary about starting a rookie outside again? So Texans must sign a veteran CB who can cover, he is going to be expensive regardless who it is, so why not go after Nnamdi Asomugha then work your way down the wish list, Johnathan Joseph, Brent Grimes (payback for Dunta) Ike Taylor etc.... in this case you could be right :barman:

2slik4u
07-05-2011, 04:28 PM
And if your arguement is he will get better just because he is on field more, I think you are wrong as only minor improvement will occur. KJ has the wrong skill sets for what we need. He should be taught to stay off the WR and not "bump". He has speed to turn and run but not to recover if he misses the bump or gets "shaked & baked" by a wiley WR. Wade can correct KJ (unless rookie is shell shocked & I doubt that) & I am hopeful as I do not want to have a wasted first round.

My arguement was never what you said in your first sentence. I think all of the above mentioned flaws in his game can be corrected with good coaching....of course now we will see. I dont think there is any excuse for KJ not to be a good CB1 for the Texans in year 3 of his career. He now has one of the best DC's coaching him, a young talented front seven dedicated at getting after the QB and an offense to keep him off the field and fresh. I think it will take the better part of a full season to "unlearn" the bad habits he displayed last year which should set him up for success in year 3.

This is of course what should happen IF there is in fact a good CB buried in there somewhere. My arguement the whole time was it was too early to tell if KJ was a bust like Ellisunit kept saying.

Again, Im not saying KJ is a great, good, or horrible CB. Im just saying there needs to be further evaluation before making a decision on him.

EllisUnit
07-05-2011, 06:18 PM
My arguement was never what you said in your first sentence. I think all of the above mentioned flaws in his game can be corrected with good coaching....of course now we will see. I dont think there is any excuse for KJ not to be a good CB1 for the Texans in year 3 of his career. He now has one of the best DC's coaching him, a young talented front seven dedicated at getting after the QB and an offense to keep him off the field and fresh. I think it will take the better part of a full season to "unlearn" the bad habits he displayed last year which should set him up for success in year 3.

This is of course what should happen IF there is in fact a good CB buried in there somewhere. My arguement the whole time was it was too early to tell if KJ was a bust like Ellisunit kept saying.

Again, Im not saying KJ is a great, good, or horrible CB. Im just saying there needs to be further evaluation before making a decision on him.

Lets make it clear i said he wasnt cutting it last season and he wasnt. So we need to protect our own asses and NOT expect him to improve. We can hope he does but sign someone incase he dont. Cause we can all agree we dont want a repeat of last seasons secondary woes.

badboy
07-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Harris and Carmichael are better than Jackson was but not necessarily better than KJ will be under better coaching. I will be stunned if some vet CB is not signed. I just hope McCain gets some reps but he needs to step up and show that talent he has or he will be looking to sign with another team.

badboy
07-05-2011, 10:17 PM
My arguement was never what you said in your first sentence. I think all of the above mentioned flaws in his game can be corrected with good coaching....of course now we will see. I dont think there is any excuse for KJ not to be a good CB1 for the Texans in year 3 of his career. He now has one of the best DC's coaching him, a young talented front seven dedicated at getting after the QB and an offense to keep him off the field and fresh. I think it will take the better part of a full season to "unlearn" the bad habits he displayed last year which should set him up for success in year 3.

This is of course what should happen IF there is in fact a good CB buried in there somewhere. My arguement the whole time was it was too early to tell if KJ was a bust like Ellisunit kept saying.

Again, Im not saying KJ is a great, good, or horrible CB. Im just saying there needs to be further evaluation before making a decision on him.Thanks for clarifying and you are correct it is too earlyto "bust" him but he needs to step up quickly or he will be blasted as another Okoye. Right or wrong. Do you have an evaluation on Jackson?