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View Full Version : AJ made Top 10 on NFL's Top 100.


Ryan
06-27-2011, 12:44 AM
20-11 were named today and AJ still hasn't been called yet, and there's only 1 more receiver left on the board so it's definitely gotta be him. Despite not putting up typical AJ stats and playing through injury, he still gets the most respect in the league. I hope he cracks the top 5.

IDEXAN
06-27-2011, 07:26 AM
So who will the top 10 players be now ? Shouldn't it be pretty easy to figure out based upon who hasn't been slected yet ?

Trap_Star
06-27-2011, 08:35 AM
in no particular order...

manning
brady
brees
AJ
peterson
polamalu
ray lewis
julius peppers
revis
reed

Blake
06-27-2011, 09:09 AM
1.) Derelle Revis
2.) Drew Brees
3.) Adrian Petterson
4.) Peyton Manning
5.) Andre Johnson
6.) Tom Brady
7.) Julius Peppers
8.) Troy Polamalu
9.) Ray Lewis
10.) Ed Reed

beerlover
06-27-2011, 11:55 AM
these rankings seem reflective more of past performance rather than what they've done lately. For instance how can Aaron Rodgers not be rated over Drew Brees? He just had one of the all time great seasons, followed by post season capped off with impressive Super Bowl win, Packers never would have experienced without his poise & leadership.

Andre was shutdown end of season on a miserable under achieving Texan team. Thought Roddy White actually had the better season. For finishers Nnamdi Asomugha is still the best CB, on a bad defense who doesn't get thrown against so I guess if the Texans did sign him as a street free agent, teams would still go after Kareem Jackson :roast:

rush2112mn
06-27-2011, 01:40 PM
I think he will be in top 5 myself....

Double Barrel
06-27-2011, 02:15 PM
these rankings seem reflective more of past performance rather than what they've done lately.

I agree. I like and greatly respect Ray Lewis, but no way is he in the top 10 of current players with regards to who they are right now. JMO

eriadoc
06-27-2011, 05:39 PM
I agree. I like and greatly respect Ray Lewis, but no way is he in the top 10 of current players with regards to who they are right now. JMO

... which goes back to an argument I made in the other thread about the top 100 - Arian Foster is not top 100 yet. Someone else argued against me that this list was supposed to be for the current season only, but it clearly isn't.

Double Barrel
06-27-2011, 05:47 PM
... which goes back to an argument I made in the other thread about the top 100 - Arian Foster is not top 100 yet. Someone else argued against me that this list was supposed to be for the current season only, but it clearly isn't.

yeah, any time opinions are the foundation for a list like this, it's going to be flawed. I never pay much attention to these lists with music groups or guitar players, mainly because I always disagree.

What is interesting about this list, though, is that AJ is the only player in the top 10 that has never seen a playoff game. Man, this franchise is teetering on the cliff of pathetic right now.

Allstar
06-27-2011, 07:30 PM
1.) Derelle Revis
2.) Drew Brees
3.) Adrian Petterson
4.) Peyton Manning
5.) Andre Johnson
6.) Tom Brady
7.) Julius Peppers
8.) Troy Polamalu
9.) Ray Lewis
10.) Ed Reed

Oh my. That's a unique list you got there.

Texan_Bill
06-27-2011, 07:36 PM
these rankings seem reflective more of past performance rather than what they've done lately. For instance how can Aaron Rodgers not be rated over Drew Brees? He just had one of the all time great seasons, followed by post season capped off with impressive Super Bowl win, Packers never would have experienced without his poise & leadership.

Andre was shutdown end of season on a miserable under achieving Texan team. Thought Roddy White actually had the better season. For finishers Nnamdi Asomugha is still the best CB, on a bad defense who doesn't get thrown against so I guess if the Texans did sign him as a street free agent, teams would still go after Kareem Jackson :roast:

I agree. I like and greatly respect Ray Lewis, but no way is he in the top 10 of current players with regards to who they are right now. JMO

I disagree guys. The fact that both Vonta and Arian made the list lends itself to guys with some recent success as well as those with "reputation" (for lack of a better term).

Double Barrel
06-28-2011, 03:17 PM
I disagree guys. The fact that both Vonta and Arian made the list lends itself to guys with some recent success as well as those with "reputation" (for lack of a better term).

Well I definitely respect the list because of the way it was compiled. The players having the say means a lot to me. It's when the media and fans get involved that things tend to get really goofy, IMO.

I think you are right that reputation played a part. That's why Ray Lewis is in the top 10. But, where I'd disagree is that this is the "Top 100 Players of 2011", not the top 100 of all-time.

Is today's Ray Lewis better than today's James Harrison or Patrick Willis? The players collectively think so. I was just under the impression that this list was about who they are right now, not what they did in 2010 and before. But, it's their list and their opinions, so I'm not really debating it as much as I am just commenting my own thoughts.

Although, in defense of Ray Lewis, his leadership is above and beyond what you see with other teams, so that probably played a factor, as well....and he is still a badass, even in his later years.

False Start
07-03-2011, 07:48 PM
He came in at #7, not bad at all. :jam: :texflag:

Kimmy
07-03-2011, 07:50 PM
He should have been #1 just for the Cortland beatdown alone. Not gonna lie, I enjoyed watching that again ;)

Trap_Star
07-03-2011, 08:03 PM
who presented him?

ATXtexanfan
07-03-2011, 08:06 PM
so what did they say, missed it

KA4Texan
07-03-2011, 08:14 PM
He should have been #1 just for the Cortland beatdown alone. Not gonna lie, I enjoyed watching that again ;)

No, he should have made number 1 on attitude alone..... who with his talent in the NFL these days has his attitude?

Throw in the talent, along with attitude and team loyalty.......... missing number one is a shame.

As stated though, for our standings as a team.... for him to make #7 speaks volumes and isnt to bad.

The beat down is just bonus.

Kimmy
07-03-2011, 08:16 PM
who presented him?

Terrell Suggs .. they had a lot of people talking about him. It was a good piece

Kimmy
07-03-2011, 08:18 PM
No, he should have made number 1 on attitude alone..... who with his talent in the NFL these days has his attitude?

Throw in the talent, along with attitude and team loyalty.......... missing number one is a shame.

As stated though, for our standings as a team.... for him to make #7 speaks volumes and isnt to bad.

The beat down is just bonus.

I agree, but with this being a players vote & so many players do not like Cortland, I thought he would go higher based on that alone.

He does make Schaub look good :) (and yes, Schaub is good, but Andre makes him look amazing)

Kimmy
07-03-2011, 08:19 PM
so what did they say, missed it

Link (http://www.nfl.com/top100/bonus?module=HP_spotlight#player:Andre-Johnson:id:09000d5d81fdd293)

Ryan
07-03-2011, 08:35 PM
If we had made a super bowl or at least one good playoff run he'd have been 1 or 2 easily. Still without a doubt the best WR in the league, it was a good piece though for sure. Gives me the fever.

Allstar
07-03-2011, 09:19 PM
I have no qualms with AJ's ranking

MFG16
07-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Heres the video for those interested: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100-2011/09000d5d82092a17/Top-100-Andre-Johnson?module=HP_cp2

DocBar
07-04-2011, 05:19 AM
Great piece. AJ is a great player and even greater person.

gtexan02
07-04-2011, 08:32 AM
What was the final top ten?

Trap_Star
07-04-2011, 08:41 AM
What was the final top ten?

10. peppers
9. brees
8. revis
7. andre
6. polamalu
5. reed
4. lewis
3. peterson
2. manning
1. brady

IDEXAN
07-04-2011, 09:19 AM
10. peppers
9. brees
8. revis
7. andre
6. polamalu
5. reed
4. lewis
3. peterson
2. manning
1. brady

If Manning missed the whole year, could the Colts go 11-5 ? No way !
And no way Lewis belongs on that list. 5 years ago, but absolutely not in 2011. And I'm not even a Cowboys fan, but for example DeMarcus Ware is so much more valuable, certainly more effective than Lewis in the NFL today.

ThaShark316
07-04-2011, 09:35 AM
If Manning missed the whole year, could the Colts go 11-5 ? No way !
And no way Lewis belongs on that list. 5 years ago, but absolutely not in 2011. And I'm not even a Cowboys fan, but for example DeMarcus Ware is so much more valuable, certainly more effective than Lewis in the NFL today.

It's why i know for a fact that its a players vote.

Lucky
07-04-2011, 09:55 AM
It's why i know for a fact that its a players vote.
It's an acknowledgement by the players that intangibles and leadership count. Lewis has the same amount of these qualities as Brady & Manning. He's still the preeminent leader on defense.

ThaShark316
07-04-2011, 10:18 AM
It's an acknowledgement by the players that intangibles and leadership count. Lewis has the same amount of these qualities as Brady & Manning. He's still the preeminent leader on defense.

That's what I'm saying basically. It's good that its a players vote...I'd much rather the players than GMs/experts who discredit a guy STRICTLY by him losing a step.

That said, I said "I know its a players vote", because of some omissions and the that Ray Lewis is top 5. They respect the hell out of him, and feel some players are overrated in their eyes.

dream_team
07-04-2011, 11:09 PM
I would have guessed Revis would rank higher than AJ. Lets be honest, when they face up head-to-head, Revis does a pretty good job on him.

I would have also never guessed Ed Reed would be ranked higher than Polamalu. TBH, I would have never guessed Reed would make the top 10.

I'm pretty happy with the top 3. Personally, I'd have Peyton as #1, but I totally understand Brady at that spot. I'd have AP at #3 as well.

eriadoc
07-05-2011, 09:19 AM
I would have also never guessed Ed Reed would be ranked higher than Polamalu.

I would. Ed Reed has been the best safety in the game for some time, IMO. A few years ago, he would have been my #1 choice for a player to start a defense with.

Dutchrudder
07-05-2011, 10:29 AM
Didn't Ed Reed lead the NFL in INTs last year despite missing 4 games?

Ole Miss Texan
07-05-2011, 10:33 AM
I think Peterson is a pretty damn good RB and all but #3 overall player? Props to AJ, that was a really good video.

Raf
07-05-2011, 12:27 PM
Huge Andre fan here. Huge Texans fan. But...its nonense to say he should have been higher at the 3rd spot or even 1st is ludicrous. Every tme he's faced Darrelle Revis, he's been shut down. The players got the top 10 right, putting Revis aead of Johnson. Had it not been for Brady having an unbelievable statistical season and Revis being injured for the time he was, I would put Revis as #1 with how dominant he is at his position. Its incredible how easily and consistently he takes the NFL's best wideouts and future hall of famers out of the equation indefinitly. He's done it in consecutive seasons and haven't seen him be a show boat about it.

With that said, and to pay homage to the cliche, while extremely accurate.....it is a QB DRIVEN league so therefor Tom Brady is fittingly the best, all things considered.

Double Barrel
07-05-2011, 03:03 PM
If Manning missed the whole year, could the Colts go 11-5 ? No way !


You don't know that to be true. 100% speculation on your part.

Has Manning ever went 16-0? No way! Silly arguments go both ways. :ok:

Don't be a hater. Both are elite QBs and first ballot HoFers. This wasn't a popularity contest. This was the perspective of players, and that makes it so much better than lists voted by fans, media, and/or coaches, IMHO.

I would have had no problem if 1 and 2 had been reversed. They are both that good.

Ryan
07-05-2011, 08:38 PM
Huge Andre fan here. Huge Texans fan. But...its nonense to say he should have been higher at the 3rd spot or even 1st is ludicrous. Every tme he's faced Darrelle Revis, he's been shut down. The players got the top 10 right, putting Revis aead of Johnson. Had it not been for Brady having an unbelievable statistical season and Revis being injured for the time he was, I would put Revis as #1 with how dominant he is at his position. Its incredible how easily and consistently he takes the NFL's best wideouts and future hall of famers out of the equation indefinitly. He's done it in consecutive seasons and haven't seen him be a show boat about it.

With that said, and to pay homage to the cliche, while extremely accurate.....it is a QB DRIVEN league so therefor Tom Brady is fittingly the best, all things considered.


Revis was ranked #8 and AJ was #7. :wadepalm:

HOU-TEX
07-06-2011, 08:38 AM
It's awesome he was chosen in the top 10 by his peers. I just hope he's able to play in the post season at some point in his career. He deserves it, whether for the Texans or somebody else.

Ole Miss Texan
07-06-2011, 09:11 AM
It's awesome he was chosen in the top 10 by his peers. I just hope he's able to play in the post season at some point in his career. He deserves it, whether for the Texans or somebody else.

Totally Agree! It will be with the Texans... and it will be this season. :evil:

Raf
07-06-2011, 09:48 AM
Revis was ranked #8 and AJ was #7. :wadepalm:

Well...we all know the ranking is very wrong then. If anything, at least switch those two as Revis has owned Johnson every chance he's gotten. So has Asomugah. I still think Revis is better.

The point I was trying to make is that Johnson can't be 3rd overall if Revis is #6 or #8...whatever, if Revis is #20, then Johnson at the very least needs to be 21, in essence behind Revis.

DocBar
07-06-2011, 10:06 AM
I would like to see a coaches poll on this subject. Players are too likely to vote like a fan, i.e. ESPN highlights, alma mater loyalty, etc.
I would like to see who the coaches gameplan for and worry about facing the most. Some players get a lot of credit for being in the right place at the right time when it was actually a different player that caused it. A DE getting a sack because a DT collapsed the pocket or a RB making a long run becaauase the WR kicked ass blocking down the field. I think that would make a very interesting list and probably quite a bit different than this top 100.

Ole Miss Texan
07-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Well...we all know the ranking is very wrong then. If anything, at least switch those two as Revis has owned Johnson every chance he's gotten. So has Asomugah. I still think Revis is better.

The point I was trying to make is that Johnson can't be 3rd overall if Revis is #6 or #8...whatever, if Revis is #20, then Johnson at the very least needs to be 21, in essence behind Revis.

Well then maybe Ted Ginn Jr. should be ranked higher than both Dre and Revis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyPtJF-IgPc

Raf
07-06-2011, 10:47 AM
Well then maybe Ted Ginn Jr. should be ranked higher than both Dre and Revis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyPtJF-IgPc

C'mon. In terms of overall body of work, who is Ted Ginn?

Get out of here with that. As lame an attempt as they come.

Randy Moss burned him with a long TD one handed grab last year. With your logic, Moss should be ranked ahead Revis and Johnson for the 2011 season season also. http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/thehand.gif

Ole Miss Texan
07-06-2011, 11:08 AM
C'mon. In terms of overall body of work, who is Ted Ginn?

Get out of here with that. As lame an attempt as they come.

Randy Moss burned him with a long TD one handed grab last year. With your logic, Moss should be ranked ahead Revis and Johnson for the 2011 season season also. http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/thehand.gif
Defensive much? :boogereater:

I just think your logic is kind of flawed. I understand where you're coming from but it's just not as black and white as that. AJ gets shut down by Revis and Nnamdi. Revis gets burned by Randy Moss and Ted Ginn Jr. (by your own admission a nobody). I'm not saying Revis isn't any good, he's top 10 where he should be... just like AJ.

Julius Peppers controlled the line of scrimmage in the game the Bears won against the Vikings. The same game that Peterson got 51 yards off 17 carries and NO touchdowns. But Peppers is 10th and Peterson is 3rd.

I'm about as big a fan as Nnamdi as they come. I think he's better than Revis. But with that said, he doesn't cover the opposing teams' #1 WR the whole time. Watch the Texans games and he doesn't always shut down AJ, he's guarding Kevin Walter a lot of snaps.

Raf
07-06-2011, 11:20 AM
But with that said, he doesn't cover the opposing teams' #1 WR the whole time. Watch the Texans games and he doesn't always shut down AJ, he's guarding Kevin Walter a lot of snaps.

Look...Andre is my boy, my favorite player...bar none. But...what you stated there, it makes Andre look even worse. So when the Johnson faces the Raiders, Johnson is ineffective regardless of Asomugah covering him or not. Since Andre is our best player...he should have a stellar game. If not he...then someone else given that he takes coverages away from the other guys. But that doesn't even happen. So in most snaps, Andre faces the Raiders' #2 corner and still can't get close to 100 yards or score a TD. Johnson is completely shut down.

If you're a top 10 player on a 2011 or any list for the matter....that means you're a huge impact player. All things considered....he is a top talent, but both Asomugah and Revis should be ranked ahead of him. They've had his number or simply put...Johnson hasn't been able to have theirs. And when that's the case...those two guys should be ahead of him. Hate like hell to admit that...but, I can't bring myself to seeing it any other way. It's not only happened once against them. It's happened each and every time when facing them. That's a trend...not an anomaly.

DocBar
07-06-2011, 11:41 AM
It would be a lot more telling if we played Revis and Aso twice a year. There isn't a big enough sample set and I'm sure we game plan to stay away from those two when we do play them.

Ole Miss Texan
07-06-2011, 11:51 AM
Look...Andre is my boy, my favorite player...bar none. But...what you stated there, it makes Andre look even worse. So when the Johnson faces the Raiders, Johnson is ineffective regardless of Asomugah covering him or not. Since Andre is our best player...he should have a stellar game. If not he...then someone else given that he takes coverages away from the other guys. But that doesn't even happen. So in most snaps, Andre faces the Raiders' #2 corner and still can't get close to 100 yards or score a TD. Johnson is completely shut down. I'm not trying to paint Revis, Nnamdi or Andre in any better or worse light, I'm just commenting on their games as objectively as possible. I respect each of their games tremendously and think they're phenomenal players. Nnamdi faces a lot of #2 WRs (could his stats be inflated because of that)? Revis is great but can be beat. AJ has been "shut down" but he's also been double and triple teamed. All players have good games and bad games.

AJ didn't play in the Oakland game this season.
In 2009 he had 2 catches for 66 yards. Schaub hit 7 different receivers and only had 22 attempts. We won that game 29-6 and were a running team as evidenced by 41 rushing attempts.
In 2008 AJ was limited to 2 receptions and 19 yards.... but OD had a career day with 7 receptions and 111 yards.
AJ didn't play in the Oakland game during the 2007 season.

The point I'm trying to make here again is it's not as black and white as player X didn't do good against player Y so player Y is better than X. He may not have done well in a game but like you said, when they're concentrating on him it opens things up for others. Sometimes we just suck as a whole though. You and are both in the same boat with AJ being our favorite player so I'm not saying anything you don't already know. I'm just disagreeing with the way your concluding your rankings.

If you're a top 10 player on a 2011 or any list for the matter....that means you're a huge impact player. All things considered....he is a top talent, but both Asomugah and Revis should be ranked ahead of him. They've had his number or simply put...Johnson hasn't been able to have theirs. And when that's the case...those two guys should be ahead of him. Hate like hell to admit that...but, I can't bring myself to seeing it any other way. It's not only happened once against them. It's happened each and every time when facing them. That's a trend...not an anomaly.
I think AJ is a top 5 or top 10 talent easy. I wouldn't mess with Brady and Peyton being #1 and #2 at all though. If the list came out and Nnamdi and Revis were both voted ahead of AJ I probably wouldn't have even been that surprised. But we're all in agreement that AJ is the best WR in the league and definitely one of the best overall players.

Raf
07-06-2011, 12:08 PM
I think AJ is a top 5 or top 10 talent easy. I wouldn't mess with Brady and Peyton being #1 and #2 at all though. If the list came out and Nnamdi and Revis were both voted ahead of AJ I probably wouldn't have even been that surprised. But we're all in agreement that AJ is the best WR in the league and definitely one of the best overall players.

http://www.encircling.us/forums/images/smilies/shake.gif

Mr teX
07-06-2011, 02:31 PM
You don't know that to be true. 100% speculation on your part.

Has Manning ever went 16-0? No way! Silly arguments go both ways. :ok:

Don't be a hater. Both are elite QBs and first ballot HoFers. This wasn't a popularity contest. This was the perspective of players, and that makes it so much better than lists voted by fans, media, and/or coaches, IMHO.

I would have had no problem if 1 and 2 had been reversed. They are both that good.



Lol DB......alway :chef:.

No denying the 2nd part to what you said........but you good & well know that the colts wouldn't even be close to what they are if manning misses any signifcant chunk of time in any given season. Dude is effectively the last of his kind in the sense that he pretty much calls his own plays.

You also know that if it wasn't for the coaching staff, not only would Manning & the Colts also have a 16-0 season under their belt going back 2 years ago, (Caldwell pulled starters & Let the Jets rip into Sorgi.) But Manning also likely has the record for most TD's in a season..(he was forced to sit out the last regular season game of 2004).

Texecutioner
07-06-2011, 02:50 PM
Lol DB......alway :chef:.

No denying the 2nd part to what you said........but you good & well know that the colts wouldn't even be close to what they are if manning misses any signifcant chunk of time in any given season. Dude is effectively the last of his kind in the sense that he pretty much calls his own plays.

You also know that if it wasn't for the coaching staff, not only would Manning & the Colts also have a 16-0 season under their belt going back 2 years ago, (Caldwell pulled starters & Let the Jets rip into Sorgi.) But Manning also likely has the record for most TD's in a season..(he was forced to sit out the last regular season game of 2004).

Man, this entire post is nothing but speculation. Nothing here supports that the Colts would have ever gone 16-0 other than well speculation. The only team that has done that in the last 20 years was the Pats led by Tom Brady who threw 50 TD's who also happens to have two more rings than Manning. Manning has also lost more of their head to head match ups in the post season. And in both of their SB losses BRady's defense gave the game away when his offense had it clinched while Manning threw it away himself with a pick to the other team for a TD. Lets not let facts get in the way of this speculated argument though.

DocBar
07-06-2011, 03:56 PM
AJ also posted a 6 catch 115 yd. game against Oakland in 2004.

DocBar
07-06-2011, 04:04 PM
AJ also posted a 6 catch 115 yd. game against Oakland in 2004.

Mr teX
07-06-2011, 04:06 PM
Man, this entire post is nothing but speculation. Nothing here supports that the Colts would have ever gone 16-0 other than well speculation. The only team that has done that in the last 20 years was the Pats led by Tom Brady who threw 50 TD's who also happens to have two more rings than Manning. Manning has also lost more of their head to head match ups in the post season. And in both of their SB losses BRady's defense gave the game away when his offense had it clinched while Manning threw it away himself with a pick to the other team for a TD. Lets not let facts get in the way of this speculated argument though.

Hmmm, if Brady's offenses had the victories "sewn" up, then why was Adam Vinatieri on the field late in games kicking FG's for the win in 2 of their SB's & 1 of their AFC championship games? That's ST's my friend not offense.

Aside from that, here's another fact, SB's & playoff victories are team accolades not individual accolades & i don't blindly give credit to qb's for winning them all by themselves most people do.

& yeah, i do believe it is an actual fact that Manning was forced to sit out the last game against the Broncos in 2004 & It's not a stretch at all to say that he'd likely still have the record today if that doesn't happen & he plays that entire game.....Especially when he comes back the next week against the exact same team and absolutely destroys them in the playoffs for 4 TD's.

The same thing goes for him being forced to sit by the coaching staff in 2007 in what was the 2nd to last game of the year (last game against the bills i believe). Especially when he comes back 2 weeks later in the playoff & leads his team over that exact same jets team. Anyone who thinks that the Colts weren't going to go 16-0 that year is fooling themselves.

Brady's a HOFer for sure, but isn't a lynchpin to a teams success like Manning is; without him, the Colts are Texans status. I could care less if you agree or not.

Texecutioner
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Hmmm, if Brady's offenses had the victories "sewn" up, then why was Adam Vinatieri on the field late in games kicking FG's for the win in 2 of their SB's & 1 of their AFC championship games? That's ST's my friend not offense.

Talk about a complete spin. Who the hell do you think gets the team in FG position?

Aside from that, here's another fact, SB's & playoff victories are team accolades not individual accolades & i don't blindly give credit to qb's for winning them all by themselves most people do.

No one did, but Brady has the best playoff win % in post season history and that speaks for itself. You can try to spin that as well, but his performances especially at such a young age cannot be spun. The guy was liquid.



& yeah, i do believe it is an actual fact that Manning was forced to sit out the last game against the Broncos in 2004 & It's not a stretch at all to say that he'd likely still have the record today if that doesn't happen & he plays that entire game.....Especially when he comes back the next week against the exact same team and absolutely destroys them in the playoffs for 4 TD's.


Let's cut out the speculation and stick to facts.

The same thing goes for him being forced to sit by the coaching staff in 2007 in what was the 2nd to last game of the year (last game against the bills i believe). Especially when he comes back 2 weeks later in the playoff & leads his team over that exact same jets team. Anyone who thinks that the Colts weren't going to go 16-0 that year is fooling themselves.

The only one fooling themselves is you for trying to create facts that don't exist. There have been a hell of a lot of teams that have gotten close to 16-0 and lost at the end of the season. It's hard as hell to do that. You can sit here and say woulda coulda shoulda all that you want, but it's a lame argument based off of nothing factual and only what you speculate. The only team that has done this is in the last 25 years os the Patriots and that is fact.

Brady's a HOFer for sure, but isn't a lynchpin to a teams success like Manning is; without him, the Colts are Texans status. I could care less if you agree or not.

Of course I don't agree with someone that is using baseless speculated stuff throughout this entire argument to state something being true. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that to act like Manning is the best QB of all time. Facts wise he's had less success than Brady has.

Double Barrel
07-06-2011, 05:16 PM
Hmmm, if Brady's offenses had the victories "sewn" up, then why was Adam Vinatieri on the field late in games kicking FG's for the win in 2 of their SB's & 1 of their AFC championship games? That's ST's my friend not offense.


ahhhhh, Mr teX...it must kill you inside that NFL PLAYERS voted your boy #2. I had little doubt that Brady being voted number 1 - by NFL PLAYERS - would be a bur under your saddle.

I would have had no problem if they voted Manning no. 1. I would not have said a thing, because I could easily comprehend the validity of the results. This was not a popularity contest. This was a direct vote by their peers. That is so mind-boggling better than the media, coaches, scouts, or fans voting on it.

What amuses me about Manning fanboys is that they apparently do not watch any other NFL games but the ones Manning plays in. Did Vinatieri kick 90 yard FGs in those games? Hmmmm, somebody - perhaps a QB - had to lead the team down the field during crunch time to put them in position to make those FGs.

You do know that the HEAD COACH makes the call to go for three, yeah? Perhaps because three was the number of points required to win the game?

Manning, for all his genius, often overthinks strategy. He can be so close to the action, so sure of his own abilities, that he will call plays that do not necessarily fit the situation.

Ray Lewis, in his presentation for Brady, pointed out a great play for an example. It was a simple short pass to his HB in a cover 2 (inside two minutes, 3rd down, iirc). Lewis pointed out the genius of this call, because Brady wasn't trying to be the hero, wasn't trying to thread the needle, but was taking what the defense was giving him. And it was a drive that ended up winning the game.

For all your dismissing of Brady, he's only "led three fourth-quarter come-from-behind wins on the world's greatest stage, the Super Bowl."

See, Brady is clutch. Check out this article:

NFL's Most Clutch Quarterbacks (http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/nfl-clutch-quarterbacks-lifestyle-sports-football-tom-brady.html)

Topping the list is the New England Patriots' Tom Brady, who has converted 21 of 33 comeback opportunities (64%) in his 10 years in the NFL.

--------------------

The Colts' Peyton Manning may have better career numbers than his younger brother, Giants' QB Eli, but Eli trumps Peyton in clutchness. Eli, third on our list, has converted 13 comebacks in 27 opportunities (48%) to Peyton's 29 in 65 (45%).

Last time I had a math class, 64% > 45%

Clutch, man. NFL players see it, and so do me and Texecutioner. Why can't you just admit it? Brady and Manning are both badass QBs. Brady is just a teeny-weeny little bit more badass, that's all.

Argue with Ray Lewis. Dude knows QBs. Plays against both of these dudes. And he - and NFL PLAYERS - puts Brady number ONE. #eatingMrteXalive

Brady's a HOFer for sure, but isn't a lynchpin to a teams success like Manning is; without him, the Colts are Texans status. I could care less if you agree or not.

LOL! This is just delusional, man. Your hatred for Brady blinds any objectivity. He's not a lynchpin? Seriously?

2 Super Bowl MVP
2 AP NFL MVP

Yeah, any old QB can do that...except they don't.

But, as always, it's all in good fun. And Brady is NUMBER ONE. :clap:

DocBar
07-06-2011, 05:46 PM
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries. :twocents:

Texecutioner
07-06-2011, 06:24 PM
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries. :twocents:

This isn't indicative at all because Matt Cassell has shown that he's a damn good QB period. Did you miss last season with the Chiefs? He just led a team that had been in disarray to the playoffs and helped to make Bowe one of the best WR's in the NFL last season. Matt Cassell was a very good QB that no one knew about that happened to get his shot and capitalized off of it. Stick Cassell on the Colts in that situation and maybe he has success there as well. I'd say the odds are in his favor considering the fact that he has had success with two different teams now.

And this is still a speculated argument again any way. Well so and so was an okay team and so and so other team wouldn't have been good. Unless you can put Cassell on the Colts for an entire season with a good offensive coaching staff than it's a moot point. You go off of what the facts are and Brady and Manning have both played on their teams respectively. One guy has had more success than the other and the NFL players that voted on this felt that Brady was the best player in the league. This wasn't a popularity contest.

Double Barrel
07-06-2011, 06:41 PM
There's some truth to what Mr. Tex is saying. When Brady went down in '09 with a season ending injury, Matt Cassel stepped in and kept the train a running. IIRC, they barely missed the playoffs that year but had a winning record. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that Mannings backup could lead that team as well as Cassel did. That actually points to the Pats just being a better over all team but also shines light on the fact that Manning is much more critical to his teams success than Brady is to the Pats. And that's a good indicator of why the Pats have 3 SB wins in 4 tries and the colts only have 1 in 2 tries. :twocents:

Statistics are there to compare between Brady and Manning. It could be argued that Brady elevates those around him more than Manning does. Manning has had HoF WRs and Pro-Bowl RBs on his offense, which is not the case for Brady. So yeah, "team" is the concept, and Brady has clearly shown he's the slightly better leader of a team.

On the bolded and the Cassel discussion, I think some folks are underestimating the genius of Bill Belichick. He changed the game plan to accommodate Cassel. He kept the passing game short and put Cassel into situations to succeed. Of course the Patriots were a great team. Any SB champion, much less multiple, is obviously a great team.

And Manning won that SB all by himself, too, right? Threw the ball, caught the ball, ran with the ball, and even played defense. Freeney and Sanders were irrelevant....riiiiight.

I've got no problem with folks elevating Manning. I just take exception to haters that try to denigrate Brady. It's the same, tired arguments from the '80's when talking about Montana vs. Marino. Some folks focus so much on statistics that they are unable to comprehend the intangibles like leadership and the ability to inspire those around them to achieve greater things than they might otherwise with another QB.

I guess some folks think Steve Young is better than Joe Montana, too. Why, Young just stepped in and won a Super Bowl, so he's clearly a better QB on a team that carried Montana to four championships. That's what it sounds like when I hear the Cassel discussion.

And like Tex said, Cassel is a good QB. It could easily be argued that he'd succeed with Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, etc., on his offense (not to mention Jeff Saturday!). To act like these guys had nothing to do with Manning's success just disrespects them completely....and it's pure speculation clouded by manlove. :winky:

DocBar
07-06-2011, 07:01 PM
Statistics are there to compare between Brady and Manning. It could be argued that Brady elevates those around him more than Manning does. Manning has had HoF WRs and Pro-Bowl RBs on his offense, which is not the case for Brady. So yeah, "team" is the concept, and Brady has clearly shown he's the slightly better leader of a team.

On the bolded and the Cassel discussion, I think some folks are underestimating the genius of Bill Belichick. He changed the game plan to accommodate Cassel. He kept the passing game short and put Cassel into situations to succeed. Of course the Patriots were a great team. Any SB champion, much less multiple, is obviously a great team.

And Manning won that SB all by himself, too, right? Threw the ball, caught the ball, ran with the ball, and even played defense. Freeney and Sanders were irrelevant....riiiiight.

I've got no problem with folks elevating Manning. I just take exception to haters that try to denigrate Brady. It's the same, tired arguments from the '80's when talking about Montana vs. Marino. Some folks focus so much on statistics that they are unable to comprehend the intangibles like leadership and the ability to inspire those around them to achieve greater things than they might otherwise with another QB.

I guess some folks think Steve Young is better than Joe Montana, too. Why, Young just stepped in and won a Super Bowl, so he's clearly a better QB on a team that carried Montana to four championships. That's what it sounds like when I hear the Cassel discussion.

And like Tex said, Cassel is a good QB. It could easily be argued that he'd succeed with Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, etc., on his offense (not to mention Jeff Saturday!). To act like these guys had nothing to do with Manning's success just disrespects them completely....and it's pure speculation clouded by manlove. :winky:Ease up on the manlove dude. Y'all read way more into that than I was trying to say. I think Manning might be the best QB to ever play the game, but that doesn't trump winning championships. Football is a team sport and it takes a lot more than one phenominal player to win SB's. Ask Dan Marino or Dan Fouts.
The main point I was trying to make is that if Manning goes down, so do the Colts. It all goes through him. When was the last time we saw a DOMINANT Indy running game? At least 4 years. The Colts simply can't reload and go like the Pats. I'm a HUGE Brady fan, but the Pats can adjust. The Pats, thanks to Belichik, are greater than the sum of their individual parts.

Double Barrel
07-07-2011, 10:54 AM
Ease up on the manlove dude. Y'all read way more into that than I was trying to say. I think Manning might be the best QB to ever play the game, but that doesn't trump winning championships. Football is a team sport and it takes a lot more than one phenominal player to win SB's. Ask Dan Marino or Dan Fouts.
The main point I was trying to make is that if Manning goes down, so do the Colts. It all goes through him. When was the last time we saw a DOMINANT Indy running game? At least 4 years. The Colts simply can't reload and go like the Pats. I'm a HUGE Brady fan, but the Pats can adjust. The Pats, thanks to Belichik, are greater than the sum of their individual parts.

I was just playin' with ya' about the 'manlove'. That's why I put the winky-dude in there.

I think Manning is in the top 5 all time QBs in the NFL, so I'm not diminishing who he is by any means.

However, I think a case could be made that with all the weapons at his disposal, another QB could win with that team. It's not like his teammates are chopped liver. Just look at his offensive weapons. Cassel could win with that team, and I think it's overstating Manning's case to act like it's a slam dunk that nobody else could win with the Colts.

Ask yourself, could Manning have been as successful with the no-name teams that Brady took to the Super Bowls? Brady did not have a HoF-calibur WR like Marvin Harrison for a large chunk of his career.

And let's face it, Brady did not have the luxury of playing the Texans twice a year, much less the weak division that is the AFC south.

With regards to the Colts running game, part of that is on Manning. He calls the plays, so it's obvious that he leans toward the passing game, which is a bit more self-serving than an OC would call it.

As far as Brady, just look at his stats. Youngest QB to make it to 100 wins, enough come-from-behind victories that would rival any QB out there, his offensive stats often surpass Manning, so I tend to think something is clouding judgement when folks refuse to admit that he's a top 5 QB in NFL history, as well. (Not specific to you, but just in general with a lot of the over-the-top hate I see toward Brady.)

And in the end, NFL players agree with me and Tex. They recognize Brady's greatness, which is a lot more powerful statement than the often biased opinions of fans and media.

Mr teX
07-07-2011, 12:14 PM
I was just playin' with ya' about the 'manlove'. That's why I put the winky-dude in there.

I think Manning is in the top 5 all time QBs in the NFL, so I'm not diminishing who he is by any means.

However, I think a case could be made that with all the weapons at his disposal, another QB could win with that team. It's not like his teammates are chopped liver. Just look at his offensive weapons. Cassel could win with that team, and I think it's overstating Manning's case to act like it's a slam dunk that nobody else could win with the Colts.

Just like it overstates Brady's case that he's better b/c his team has won 3 superbowls when those SB teams were primarily anchored by belichick's defense not Brady & the offense.


Ask yourself, could Manning have been as successful with the no-name teams that Brady took to the Super Bowls? Brady did not have a HoF-calibur WR like Marvin Harrison for a large chunk of his career.


And let's face it, Brady did not have the luxury of playing the Texans twice a year, much less the weak division that is the AFC south.

yeah, he's had the Buffalo Bills & the Miami Dolphins to beat up on regularly.

With regards to the Colts running game, part of that is on Manning. He calls the plays, so it's obvious that he leans toward the passing game, which is a bit more self-serving than an OC would call it.


As far as Brady, just look at his stats. Youngest QB to make it to 100 wins, enough come-from-behind victories that would rival any QB out there, his offensive stats often surpass Manning, so I tend to think something is clouding judgement when folks refuse to admit that he's a top 5 QB in NFL history, as well. (Not specific to you, but just in general with a lot of the over-the-top hate I see toward Brady.)

Never said he wasn't top 5 in history, my argument is simply that manning is better.

And in the end, NFL players agree with me and Tex. They recognize Brady's greatness, which is a lot more powerful statement than the often biased opinions of fans and media.

& C'mon DB, the list had Romo & Mcnabb on it. 1 of those guys didn't even finish the 2011 season & the other was terrible last year. The list isn't anymore credible than 1 generated by fans & media....especially when it wasn't even clear how guys casted their vote (for career or just the 2011 season on its own).

eriadoc
07-07-2011, 12:18 PM
This isn't indicative at all because Matt Cassell has shown that he's a damn good QB period. Did you miss last season with the Chiefs? He just led a team that had been in disarray to the playoffs and helped to make Bowe one of the best WR's in the NFL last season. Matt Cassell was a very good QB that no one knew about that happened to get his shot and capitalized off of it.

Kind of like Brady with the Bledsoe deal, huh? Hmm, maybe they have a system of developing good QBs, while other teams just hope to get one in the draft.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 12:19 PM
I was just playin' with ya' about the 'manlove'. That's why I put the winky-dude in there.

I think Manning is in the top 5 all time QBs in the NFL, so I'm not diminishing who he is by any means.

However, I think a case could be made that with all the weapons at his disposal, another QB could win with that team. It's not like his teammates are chopped liver. Just look at his offensive weapons. Cassel could win with that team, and I think it's overstating Manning's case to act like it's a slam dunk that nobody else could win with the Colts.

Ask yourself, could Manning have been as successful with the no-name teams that Brady took to the Super Bowls? Brady did not have a HoF-calibur WR like Marvin Harrison for a large chunk of his career.

And let's face it, Brady did not have the luxury of playing the Texans twice a year, much less the weak division that is the AFC south.

With regards to the Colts running game, part of that is on Manning. He calls the plays, so it's obvious that he leans toward the passing game, which is a bit more self-serving than an OC would call it.

As far as Brady, just look at his stats. Youngest QB to make it to 100 wins, enough come-from-behind victories that would rival any QB out there, his offensive stats often surpass Manning, so I tend to think something is clouding judgement when folks refuse to admit that he's a top 5 QB in NFL history, as well. (Not specific to you, but just in general with a lot of the over-the-top hate I see toward Brady.)

And in the end, NFL players agree with me and Tex. They recognize Brady's greatness, which is a lot more powerful statement than the often biased opinions of fans and media.

Another thing is when you looked at Brady's first 5 or 6 years in the league where he won those SB's, like you said he was doing it with sub par talent at WR. Guys like Troy Brown, Patton, Givens, and even guys like Reche Caldwell of all people. The season they lost to the Colts in the playoffs Caldwell missed an easy screen pass that would have been an easy TD winning the game, and the Colts have no SB if that happens. He did miss it though, and that's neither here or nor there. Brady was not only winning games, but doing it in clutch fascion like you mentioned with very sub par talent. Just great reads and decision making just like Montana used to do. They mirror each other a lot in my eyes and always have.

Then when you finally saw Brady with a true elite WR, his stats blew out the roof. When Moss arrived and got serious about his career again Brady helped turn Moss back into a monster. Brady was also able to utilize Welker as well who hadn't ever had a breakout season in Miami, but people saw the talent. I think last season was the biggest tipping point for Brady though. When Moss couldn't become a factor last year, but Brady was still making plays with other players to the point that NE even got rid of him, and then their offense sky rocketed after that with Welker and a bunch of nobodies became pretty telling at how great Brady really was. Woodhead was a cast off from the Jets who couldn't even make the team, yet he becomes this great offensive weapon on the Pats while the Pats routinely use a trio of average RB's to make their running game effective. They may have lost to the Jets in a close game, but they were the only team last season to absolutely destroy the Jets and the Steelers in the regular season. They said it normally took a full season and half to recover from the injury Brady had, and you could really see how great he was again once he got back to full form. I hope they sign Steve Smith.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Kind of like Brady with the Bledsoe deal, huh? Hmm, maybe they have a system of developing good QBs, while other teams just hope to get one in the draft.

Where or how does that prove anything? Drew Bledsoe had also been a very good QB on the Patriots long before BB and his staff ever got there. He had already had several seasons where he threw for over 4,000 yards under an entirely different coaching staff, so I'm not even sure why you felt bringing up Bledsoe had to do with anything. Bledsoe hardly even played under Bill Billicheck and Charlie Weiss. BB didn't become HC of the Patriots until 2000. He then hired Weiss as well. They were never some offensive juggernut right away either. Brady went into the starting role and immediately won a SB. That Pats weren't favorites by any means that year. Brady came in there and immediately changed that franchise. 3 SB's out of 4 years and then multiple playoff appearances after that where they typically were the favorite.

And also look at the history of the rotating door of offensive coaches on the Patriots team after Weiss has left. There offense just seems to have gotten better and better through all of the changes, and BB is and always has been a defensive coach and specialist so let's not act like he's some offensive genius here or that there is some secret system in NE that any QB could excell in when they've had a revolving door of OC's and offensive coaches since Brady has started.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 12:40 PM
& C'mon DB, the list had Romo & Mcnabb on it. 1 of those guys didn't even finish the 2011 season & the other was terrible last year. The list isn't anymore credible than 1 generated by fans & media....especially when it wasn't even clear how guys casted their vote (for career or just the 2011 season on its own).

So Mcnabb has one questionable year on a new team with a coaching staff he didn't get along with and he's all of a sudden chopped liver? I don't think so. Mcnabb's been one of the best QB's over the entire decade. He's routinely taken the Eagles to the playoffs year after year and won a lot of playoff games with a revolving door of WR's there.

Romo has been a pretty good QB in Dallas as well. His numbers have been right on par with Schaub the last two seasons other than his injuries. He may not be elite by any means, but he's a back of the top ten type of QB or at least has been. Saying that Romo isn't any good would be similar to saying that about Matt Schaub.

There are a lot of things I don't agree with on this list, but to discount it is silly. It's by the players and they play against these guys.

Mr teX
07-07-2011, 12:57 PM
So Mcnabb has one questionable year on a new team with a coaching staff he didn't get along with and he's all of a sudden chopped liver? I don't think so. Mcnabb's been one of the best QB's over the entire decade. He's routinely taken the Eagles to the playoffs year after year and won a lot of playoff games with a revolving door of WR's there.

Romo has been a pretty good QB in Dallas as well. His numbers have been right on par with Schaub the last two seasons other than his injuries. He may not be elite by any means, but he's a back of the top ten type of QB or at least has been. Saying that Romo isn't any good would be similar to saying that about Matt Schaub.

There are a lot of things I don't agree with on this list, but to discount it is silly. It's by the players and they play against these guys.


Yeah, but again, it still calls into question how guys voted. It appears that some guys voted out of respect for a guys career in totality while others voted strictly on 2011 performance; you can tell that just by the voting of players like eric berry, brandon lloyd, arian foster being on the list where they are & then seeing Ray lewis being a top 5 player & greg Jennings being so low.

I've got no dispute with Brady being #1 if it's strictly on what he did in 2011 b/c he was the better of the 2..that year. But if we're talking about body of work career wise, Then that's where i disagree.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Yeah, but again, it still calls into question how guys voted. It appears that some guys voted out of respect for a guys career in totality while others voted strictly on 2011 performance; you can tell that just by the voting of players like eric berry, brandon lloyd, arian foster being on the list where they are & then seeing Ray lewis being a top 5 player & greg Jennings being so low.

Some of this is true and I didn't agree with Berry or Foster's place either. I terribly disagreed with AP's spot at #3, but then again I'm not the guy trying to tackle that dude, so as a fan I might not have any idea of how hard it is to play on a defense and attempt to shut down AP all game long. He's definitely a lot harder to tackle than CJ and Jamal Charles and right now I'd put both of them over AP, but maybe as defensive player it's an entirely different perspective when facing AP who is a lot stronger and impactful and also has great speed as oppose to two great speed demons who can pick their spots and take off like a rocket.

I've got no dispute with Brady being #1 if it's strictly on what he did in 2011 b/c he was the better of the 2..that year. But if we're talking about body of work career wise, Then that's where i disagree.

He's had a better career than Manning. He's got more rings and has beaten Manning in the post season more as well where he didn't throw epic picks to end his team's chances like Manning has on the biggest stage. This is starting to sound more and more like the same debate that used to take place with Marino and Joe Montana when people tried to bring up all of the talent that Joe had to work with in San Fran and act like Marino was better. At the end of the day Joe just had that clutch gene and poise that was better than anyone in that era. He could control the offense and did only what was needed to win which made him great. Brady has been the same type of guy.

eriadoc
07-07-2011, 01:44 PM
Where or how does that prove anything? Drew Bledsoe had also been a very good QB on the Patriots long before BB and his staff ever got there. He had already had several seasons where he threw for over 4,000 yards under an entirely different coaching staff, so I'm not even sure why you felt bringing up Bledsoe had to do with anything. Bledsoe hardly even played under Bill Billicheck and Charlie Weiss. BB didn't become HC of the Patriots until 2000. He then hired Weiss as well. They were never some offensive juggernut right away either. Brady went into the starting role and immediately won a SB. That Pats weren't favorites by any means that year. Brady came in there and immediately changed that franchise. 3 SB's out of 4 years and then multiple playoff appearances after that where they typically were the favorite.

You're making my point for me. Belichick took over a team with a very good QB, and he drafted a 6th rounder that no one expected to do anything. They developed him. When Bledsoe went down, Brady stepped in. So it's just the greatness of Brady, right? Well, not so fast. They drafted Cassell, who never saw the field in college. They developed him. So when Brady went down, Cassell led them to a record of either 10 or 11 wins, and they still missed the playoffs, which is crazy.

So either they've had this incredible lightning-strikes-twice thing of hitting on successive QBs from nowehere, or they kinda know what they're doing up there. If it's the former, then hey, good for them. If it's the latter, then it leads to some interesting discussions about who is better, who would be better on what team, and how much the QB vs. coaching has led to the team success that they've experienced.

Personally, I think Manning is a better QB, but I think the Pats are an all-around better organization with better coaching and personnel management, and those things have led to more team success. Of course, this is all picking nits, because two Super Bowl appearances and a win by the Colts is nothing to sneeze at.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 02:04 PM
You're making my point for me.

I've done nothing of the sort. There have been two examples that have been mentioned here in Cassell and Bledsoe. Your example of Bledsoe was dead wrong because he excelled way before BB ever even got there and hardly even played under BB when he became HC in NE. The other guy in Cassell was also developed by one of the greatest offensive coaches in the NFL in Todd Haley. It took Cassell a year before he had a great season. It also took him several games before he started playing well for NE and he had great talent at WR to work with as well in Moss and Welker. Lets no forget that. Cassell didn't light it up his first season in KC. Once Bowe got on board with Haley's coaching and Cassell had a full off season to work he obviously got the hang of the new offense and showed that his stint in NE was no fluke. The guy can play pretty damn well in this league.

Belichick took over a team with a very good QB, and he drafted a 6th rounder that no one expected to do anything. They developed him.

Brady had been there a year and sat on the pine. It's not like they did wonders with him in that time span. He came in and immediately could play though sort of like Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan plays very similar to Tom Brady and while many aren't that high on Ryan I am. Both him and Brady have that leadership knack that is unmatched by hardly any QB's and they don't have to be flashy. They see the field well and have great poise. Those were the same characteristics that Joe Montana had. It doesn't always take the greatest lightning arm to be the best QB in the league, Joe never had that and neither has Brady.


When Bledsoe went down, Brady stepped in. So it's just the greatness of Brady, right? Well, not so fast. They drafted Cassell, who never saw the field in college. They developed him. So when Brady went down, Cassell led them to a record of either 10 or 11 wins, and they still missed the playoffs, which is crazy.

Could Cassell have gotten them to the SB? I highly doubt it. Sure there might be several QB's who could get a NE team to the playoffs, but it takes a special guy to be that good to make it to FOUR SUPER BOWLS. That is just nuts to discount that. Brady not only has been to four, but like DB mentioned, the guy had 3 seperate drives in each one of them in clutch to win the game. That doesn't happen by luck or by accident. Being one of the most clutch QB's in NFL history is one of the most telling stats for any QB.

So either they've had this incredible lightning-strikes-twice thing of hitting on successive QBs from nowehere, or they kinda know what they're doing up there.

Yeah, that's the case. It's not as rare as you're trying to make it either. Just look at every time the Eagles have needed to replace Mcnabb temporarily. Andy Reid does a fantastic job at having his QB's prepared and they almost always play well. Great coaching helps, but hell NE has had a revolving door on offensive coaching. To simply try and act like that's why Brady is successful because you want to believe that simply doesn't work because there is no way to prove that it's so. The guy plays on a team and decimates teams. Also, are you going to sit here and honestly tell me that any one of these other QB's could have broken records and thrown for 50 TD's in one season and came a hair away from an undefeated season with the best scoring offense of all time?? Sorry, but only Brady could have done that, and to suggest otherwise is a bias against him. QB's don't pull seasons like that out of their ass because they're just in a great system.



Personally, I think Manning is a better QB, but I think the Pats are an all-around better organization with better coaching and personnel management, and those things have led to more team success.

People have been underrating how great of an organization the Colts have been for years. How many times have they had multiple injuries and plugged no name guys in and had a pretty good defense over the last 4 or 5 years. Hell, two years ago when the Colts had that great regular season it was their defense that got overlooked. They were like in the top 6 for points allowed per game. The Colts have kept Manning with a trio of weapons over the years and early on their defenses weren't as good, but that has changed a lot over the last 4 years or so especially when Sanders returned for that SB run they had. Their entire defense changed.

Of course, this is all picking nits, because two Super Bowl appearances and a win by the Colts is nothing to sneeze at.

It sure isn't, but winning 3 out of 4 is much better especially when both QB's were talking about were on the biggest stages of their careers where one threw a pick to end their team's chances while the other had 3 come from behind clutch drives to seal the game and the only loss they had wasn't at the hands of his defense where he had the game sealed in that one as well.

gary
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Manning should have two rings but that pick by Tracy Porter cost him another one.

Texecutioner
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
Manning should have two rings but that pick by Tracy Porter cost him another one.

He also did the same thing against the Patriots years ago in the playoffs where he threw like three picks to Ty Law alone. He also threw an epic pick to end his team's chances against the Steelers in their first SB win to Troy Polumolu that got over turned which became the worst NFL call I had ever seen. Troy Polumolu sealed the game with this INT and hit the ground rolled a few times and than let go of it. He had possession for a while and it should have never been overturned. That was 3 post season games right there where Manning threw epic picks to lose the game in Brett Favre type fascion. Does that make him a QB that isn't one of the best of all time? Certainly not, but Tom Brady hasn't had near the amount of game crushing picks like that in the clutch that Manning has. It's why he has 3 rings and Manning has one.

disaacks3
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
AJ - I was hoping for top 5, but it's a reasonable ranking, espicially in light of injury issues.

Manning vs. Brady - I can't help it, I just hate Brady. (the whole tuck rule thing was the beginning) I respect the man though, he's far better than anyone the Texans have ever had.

I think Brady is top-5, but I can't personally rank him above Manning. If I'm a Texans/Colts fan, I'm 100% certain that Peyton is going to win the game if he gets the ball with a chance to take the lead. I just can't get that feeling with Brady. Perhaps it's just that we see Brady too infrequently.

I'd honestly take Manning as one of my alltime top 3 with the game on the line. (Manning, Elway, Montana).

HOU-TEX
07-07-2011, 02:13 PM
I think I'm going to get on my knees and give everyone involved with getting a new CBA done by next week a virtual BJ using TB's face.

I think we're all in dire need of real football talk.

Mr teX
07-07-2011, 02:24 PM
Some of this is true and I didn't agree with Berry or Foster's place either. I terribly disagreed with AP's spot at #3, but then again I'm not the guy trying to tackle that dude, so as a fan I might not have any idea of how hard it is to play on a defense and attempt to shut down AP all game long. He's definitely a lot harder to tackle than CJ and Jamal Charles and right now I'd put both of them over AP, but maybe as defensive player it's an entirely different perspective when facing AP who is a lot stronger and impactful and also has great speed as oppose to two great speed demons who can pick their spots and take off like a rocket.



He's had a better career than Manning. He's got more rings and has beaten Manning in the post season more as well where he didn't throw epic picks to end his team's chances like Manning has on the biggest stage. This is starting to sound more and more like the same debate that used to take place with Marino and Joe Montana when people tried to bring up all of the talent that Joe had to work with in San Fran and act like Marino was better. At the end of the day Joe just had that clutch gene and poise that was better than anyone in that era. He could control the offense and did only what was needed to win which made him great. Brady has been the same type of guy.

yeah, there in lies the problem...people are in love with Brady's story whereas Manning is looked upon as "well he was the overall pick in the draft, he was supposed to do what he's doing".

& Lol, Big whoop Brady's edge is 2-1 head to head in the playoffs.......the 1 game manning has won, Brady threw an "epic" pick to close out that championship game.

You keep bringing up that 1 play like it's the only thing the guy is known for & that more than anything shows your bias. Dude has been one of the toughest & most consistent qb's to ever play, tops damn near every positive category for passing, 4 MVP awards & is really the last of his kind in terms of calling his own plays.

Manning is the piece, Brady's a piece.

gary
07-07-2011, 02:28 PM
He also did the same thing against the Patriots years ago in the playoffs where he threw like three picks to Ty Law alone. He also threw an epic pick to end his team's chances against the Steelers in their first SB win to Troy Polumolu that got over turned which became the worst NFL call I had ever seen. Troy Polumolu sealed the game with this INT and hit the ground rolled a few times and than let go of it. He had possession for a while and it should have never been overturned. That was 3 post season games right there where Manning threw epic picks to lose the game in Brett Favre type fascion. Does that make him a QB that isn't one of the best of all time? Certainly not, but Tom Brady hasn't had near the amount of game crushing picks like that in the clutch that Manning has. It's why he has 3 rings and Manning has one.Manning still might win another one or two though.

Double Barrel
07-07-2011, 02:32 PM
Just like it overstates Brady's case that he's better b/c his team has won 3 superbowls when those SB teams were primarily anchored by belichick's defense not Brady & the offense.

I try to avoid using the Super Bowl wins for comparison. It's too much of a team accomplishment to give all the credit to one man (a perspective that seems lost on Manning fanboys who seem to think he single-handedly won his Super Bowl).

I look at what each QB did during their Super Bowls and careers, and it is very clear that Brady was clutch when it mattered the most. The Pats were not winning any of those Super Bowls if Brady did not nut up at the end.

He is also statistically as good as or better than Manning in many key areas for QBs. Those stats are earned, not passed out like Halloween candy.

yeah, he's had the Buffalo Bills & the Miami Dolphins to beat up on regularly.

Well, this is true. They still don't suck as bad as the Texans, but it's close to a draw.

Never said he wasn't top 5 in history, my argument is simply that manning is better.

By your logic, Marino is better than Montana, yeah? Montana had Jerry Rice and an awesome defense, not to mention one of the greatest coaches in the history of the league. So it's obvious that any QB could have won those four rings with the 49ers...

& C'mon DB, the list had Romo & Mcnabb on it. 1 of those guys didn't even finish the 2011 season & the other was terrible last year. The list isn't anymore credible than 1 generated by fans & media....especially when it wasn't even clear how guys casted their vote (for career or just the 2011 season on its own).

You can argue about who and who should not be on the list, but this is about two players who clearly should be at the top. There is no argument that neither Manning nor Brady should be on the list.

So it comes down to which QB the players chose over the other. That's a simple question and the players have spoken.

Ray Lewis will go down as one of the greatest LBs in NFL history, and he was pimping Brady. C'mon, man, you know that says a lot. He's faced both of those cats on multiple occasions, including playoffs, and I can't dismiss his perspective because the poll might be flawed at the bottom.

And one last thing, from Joe Cool himself about Tom Brady:

"I never like to say the greatest of all time, but when he is done, he will be the best one who ever played."
~ Joe Montana

Double Barrel
07-07-2011, 02:44 PM
And let's not forget one QB has played his entire career in a dome while the other plays his home games in a severe-weather influenced outdoor northern stadium.

In spite of that dome advantage, Brady still takes the lead in many key QB stats:

Stats say what rings suggested: Brady is better than Manning (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/kerry_byrne/12/21/tom-brady-peyton-manning/index.html)

"Better stats" no longer a Manning defense

Those who favored Manning as the best of his generation have long had only one arrow in their quiver of arguments: Peyton puts up better stats.

But that argument was tenuous at best. It was based largely on meaningless volume stats. The far more important efficiency stats were much closer than anyone realized.

And now, as of this week, even those efficiency stats point in Brady's favor.

Quietly, Brady passed Manning -- at least for the time being -- in career passer rating during New England's 31-27 win over the Packers Sunday night.

Brady, as of this week, is No. 5 on the career passer rating list (94.94); Manning is No. 6 (94.93).

Yes, it's a statistical dead heat. But you can argue Brady's numbers are the more impressive, coming as they have by playing in one of the NFL's worst-weather arenas. Manning has had the benefit of playing more than half of his career games in stat-inflating domes.

Manning still has much greater volume numbers than Brady, but volume numbers are important only in fantasy football, not in the real football played on Sundays. Remember: the last guy to lead the league in passing yards and win a championship was Johnny Unitas back in 1959.

No, winning in the NFL is all about passing the ball efficiently, no matter how often you pass it. And in the area of efficiency it's obvious that Brady has consistently done more with less and against tougher conditions.

Brady: Incredible production, few mistakes
There are three major measures of efficiency that we use at Cold, Hard Football Facts.com because they have such a high correlation to success: TD-INT ratio, passing yards per attempt and passer rating.

Here's how the two quarterbacks stack up over the course of their careers in all three indicators.


Player TD/INT ratio YPA Rating
Brady 2.49/1 7.37 94.94
Manning 2.01/1 7.62 94.93


Passer rating, as noted above, is a statistical dead heat, while Manning has a quarter-yard advantage in average per attempt. The one big difference is in TD-INT ratio, which Brady dominates.

TD-INT ratio is critical because it indicates a passer who produces points while limiting those killer interceptions.

The importance of points is obvious. The importance of avoiding INTS is not as obvious, but critically important. Keep in mind that every pick decreases a team's chances of winning by a full 20 percentage points. There are few plays in sports more devastating. And Brady's ability to avoid them throughout his career is one of the underappreciated secrets to his success.

Manning, though, has been victimized by critical INTs many times in his career, and threw 11 picks in the space of three games this year. It was the worst period of football in his career. And the Colts lost all three of those games, thanks largely to those mistakes. His four INTs against the Patriots in the 2003 AFC title game cost the Colts a shot at the Super Bowl. And he blew a chance to win the Super Bowl last year with a fourth-quarter pick-six against the Saints.

Brady, for his part, has never thrown more than 14 INTs in an entire season. He's currently in the middle of a period of nearly 300 attempts since his last pick -- dating all the way back to Oct. 17. (He has thrown a few passes into the hands of defenders in recent weeks that were dropped.)

His 31 TDs and 4 INTs this year put Brady on pace for the best single-season TD-INT ratio in history (7.75 to 1), surpassing his 50 and 8 in 2007.

Brady's last three seasons (2007, 2009-10), meanwhile, represent perhaps the best three-season performance by a quarterback in history:

1,068 of 1,592 (67.1 percent), 12,765 yards, 8.02 YPA, 109 TD, 25 INT, 107.68 rating.

His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

And with a 109.92 passer rating in '10, Brady is on pace for the seventh-highest rated season in history. Brady will, in all likelihood by season's end, be the only quarterback in history to produce two of the 12 most efficient seasons in history.

One wonders what the numbers might have looked like had Brady not missed essentially all of '08 with a catastrophic knee injury.

Mr teX
07-07-2011, 02:58 PM
I try to avoid using the Super Bowl wins for comparison. It's too much of a team accomplishment to give all the credit to one man (a perspective that seems lost on Manning fanboys who seem to think he single-handedly won his Super Bowl).

I look at what each QB did during their Super Bowls and careers, and it is very clear that Brady was clutch when it mattered the most. The Pats were not winning any of those Super Bowls if Brady did not nut up at the end.

He is also statistically as good as or better than Manning in many key areas for QBs. Those stats are earned, not passed out like Halloween candy.



Well, this is true. They still don't suck as bad as the Texans, but it's close to a draw.



By your logic, Marino is better than Montana, yeah? Montana had Jerry Rice and an awesome defense, not to mention one of the greatest coaches in the history of the league. So it's obvious that any QB could have won those four rings with the 49ers...


You can argue about who and who should not be on the list, but this is about two players who clearly should be at the top. There is no argument that neither Manning nor Brady should be on the list.

So it comes down to which QB the players chose over the other. That's a simple question and the players have spoken.

Ray Lewis will go down as one of the greatest LBs in NFL history, and he was pimping Brady. C'mon, man, you know that says a lot. He's faced both of those cats on multiple occasions, including playoffs, and I can't dismiss his perspective because the poll might be flawed at the bottom.

And one last thing, from Joe Cool himself about Tom Brady:

"I never like to say the greatest of all time, but when he is done, he will be the best one who ever played."
~ Joe Montana

They also weren't winning any if Vinatieri gets a bad case of the shanks either. Brady could've driven them down to the 1 inch line & if Vinatieri Mike Vandejagt's any one of those kicks, the pats fall short, it's just as simple as that.


& Lol, Ray Lewis was just pimping Manning coming in at # 8 in the "greatest players in the history of the NFL" list that the NFL network made. Plenty of current & former players spoke on that as well. What's your point?

Montana solified his greatness by driving for TD's to put his team ahead for good in 2 of his SB victories & when he didn't have to lead his teams in that fashion, his teams just outright dominated in the other SB's to where there was no doubt. The Catch. The "Jon Candy" drive against the bengals. People remember those drives b/c they ended with him taking his team the full length of the field to score 7. Noone remembers any drive Brady led the pats through to score 3 pts. Furthermore, what's the highlights they show the most when they talk of the pats dynasty? Vinatieri kicking in the snow..... vinatieri kicking the game winner against the Rams....& Vinatieri kicking the game winner against Carolina.

He's good, but he's not Montana. & truthfully the only reason Marino isn't on par with Montana in my eyes is b/c he never led his team to a SB victory....that & his last few years were pretty atrocious. This isn't the case with manning as people try to liken him to marino in the comparisons. He's already got a championship & is still playing well.....like brady.

Ole Miss Texan
07-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Personally I think Manning and Brady both suck. So there!! :aggressive:

HOU-TEX
07-07-2011, 03:05 PM
Personally I think Manning and Brady both suck. So there!! :aggressive:

Agreed! Charlie Batch got snubbed big time!

eriadoc
07-07-2011, 03:11 PM
Your example of Bledsoe was dead wrong because he excelled way before BB ever even got there and hardly even played under BB when he became HC in NE.

*sigh* There's nothing dead wrong about my example, because I didn't claim anything with regard to Bledsoe. I was merely using him as a reference point in time. How is that dead wrong? Better yet, what did you think I was asserting about Bledsoe?

I'm not even sure what the hell you're disagreeing with me about.

Actually, never mind. Carry on with the thread. It's supposed to be about AJ anyway.

HOU-TEX
07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
*sigh* There's nothing dead wrong about my example, because I didn't claim anything with regard to Bledsoe. I was merely using him as a reference point in time. How is that dead wrong? Better yet, what did you think I was asserting about Bledsoe?

I'm not even sure what the hell you're disagreeing with me about.

Actually, never mind. Carry on with the thread. It's supposed to be about AJ anyway.

lol

Mr teX
07-07-2011, 03:27 PM
And let's not forget one QB has played his entire career in a dome while the other plays his home games in a severe-weather influenced outdoor northern stadium.

In spite of that dome advantage, Brady still takes the lead in many key QB stats:

My man db i see you conviently neglected to highlight this below in the article:


His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

Still doesn't tell you anything if you don't watch how these guys operate. 1 guy is dumping it off 5 yds & under & letting his WR's YAC it up for him as part of the offense....The other is constantly challenging you down field. The guy throwing it downfield.......& having success is more impressive.

Blake
07-07-2011, 04:02 PM
Debating who is #5 vs #7 is pointless. All that counts is that they are a top 100 player. Everything else is simply personal opinion.

Double Barrel
07-07-2011, 04:31 PM
They also weren't winning any if Vinatieri gets a bad case of the shanks either. Brady could've driven them down to the 1 inch line & if Vinatieri Mike Vandejagt's any one of those kicks, the pats fall short, it's just as simple as that.

We can play this all day long. If Dwight Clark doesn't make that spectacular catch, Montana loses a Super Bowl.

QBs do not win games by themselves. They need other players to succeed at their positions. However, as leaders and as QBs, they can put players in position to succeed at their positions.

See, the thing is that Montana had to score those TDs to win the game. Do you honestly think he would have thrown for TDs if a FG would have won the game?

And btw, when did Montana (or Brady) ever throw an INT to cost them a Super Bowl? Manning did that all by himself. :winky:

& Lol, Ray Lewis was just pimping Manning coming in at # 8 in the "greatest players in the history of the NFL" list that the NFL network made. Plenty of current & former players spoke on that as well. What's your point?

'eh, Ray Lewis is not going to say those things unless he means it.

Ray Lewis' opinion >>>> average football fan every time. It is what it is.

My man db i see you conviently neglected to highlight this below in the article:

His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

Still doesn't tell you anything if you don't watch how these guys operate. 1 guy is dumping it off 5 yds & under & letting his WR's YAC it up for him as part of the offense....The other is constantly challenging you down field. The guy throwing it downfield.......& having success is more impressive.

I did not leave it out. Manning is in my top 5 of all time, so I have no desire to diminish his achievements.

And that is the difference between you and I. You refuse the greatness of Brady, while I embrace the greatness of Manning but put him one step behind Brady. :D

Perhaps if Brady had the WRs that Manning has had his entire career, much less played ALL of his home games in the comfy, stat-padded inducing, confines of a dome stadium, he'd be throwing more long passes, as well.

Actually, never mind. Carry on with the thread. It's supposed to be about AJ anyway.

Indeed, but it's the off-season during a lock out, so you've got to give us a little understanding here. :)

Personally, I thought AJ should have been top 5, but the Revis argument is interesting, all things considered.

DocBar
07-08-2011, 01:46 PM
If we have a season, we have a very good chance to settle the Manning vs. Brady (BKR 1 Hyd. Oil Starter Oil Heater) debate. Manning has no idea when he'll be ready to play after off-season neck surgery.

Texecutioner
07-08-2011, 02:00 PM
If we have a season, we have a very good chance to settle the Manning vs. Brady (BKR 1 Hyd. Oil Starter Oil Heater) debate. Manning has no idea when he'll be ready to play after off-season neck surgery.

I don't see how one season would solve this debate considering the fact that both players will most likely go on to play another 4 or 5 years at least. Their bodies of work will be determined when they both retire.

Texecutioner
07-08-2011, 02:08 PM
My man db i see you conviently neglected to highlight this below in the article:


His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

Still doesn't tell you anything if you don't watch how these guys operate. 1 guy is dumping it off 5 yds & under & letting his WR's YAC it up for him as part of the offense....The other is constantly challenging you down field. The guy throwing it downfield.......& having success is more impressive.

To act like Tom Brady is just some dump off screen pass thrower and isn't a guy who throws down the field frequently is about as uninformed as can get on the guy or the Patriots offense for that matter. What the hell do you think Moss been doing the last few seasons for them with all of the TD's he's gotten? He throws all over the field and is one of the most accurate QB's in the league with the long ball. You're grasping at straws big time here. The Patriots are more of a passing offense.

And I can't believe that you actually knocked Brady because he led drives down the field where the FG kicker hit a FG. That's a very lame argument, and it's like you're completely forgetting that Manning has won a ton of games the same way and has had the same kicker that Brady had for several years as well. It's not the QB's fault that all they need to win a game by is a FG. That's a positive for the QB and the offense if anything, because that means they were closer to the other team's score and didn't need a TD to win and weren't further behind. I can't believe you actually wrote that thinking it was a valid point honestly.

DocBar
07-08-2011, 02:52 PM
I don't see how one season would solve this debate considering the fact that both players will most likely go on to play another 4 or 5 years at least. Their bodies of work will be determined when they both retire.I agree but there's really not a lot else to talk about.

DocBar
07-08-2011, 02:56 PM
My man db i see you conviently neglected to highlight this below in the article:


His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

Still doesn't tell you anything if you don't watch how these guys operate. 1 guy is dumping it off 5 yds & under & letting his WR's YAC it up for him as part of the offense....The other is constantly challenging you down field. The guy throwing it downfield.......& having success is more impressive.

Mr. Tex, that's a horrible arguement to make. Manning dumps it off on 5-10 yd crossing routes with boring regularity. Especially when they had Edge. It's also called taking what the D gives you and that leads to success and...um...Super Bowl victories...