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Shaft75
06-25-2011, 12:27 AM
I'm with safeties on this one.

We have ignored elite safety prospects for years, with the FO throwing draft picks to the at the defensive front and cb's. I get it too, a better rush and you don't have to worry about your last line of defense. While I somewhat agree, don't all of the playoff teams have a top notch safety?

How we address it... I have no idea. Move Quin back, then sign a free agent? That is the only solution that comes to mind. As a matter of fact, put the number 1 FA safety on my list ahead of the stud corners out there.

badboy
06-25-2011, 01:14 AM
No way is safety more important than corner on this roster. We have no one that is solid at either corner and closest is Allen. I never got much film of him last season so can not really evaluate him. If we do not get a vet Cb, we better hope KJ can be re-habbed more quickly than I expect. I have been pushing Harris since way before draft and some others are pushing him on radio stations now. He will be a starter at one of the corners by game three. Kid is solid. If I felt more comfortable with Allen I might agree with you. I see putting him and Harris on corners and either Roc or McMannis at nickle. KJ is the wild card.

Quin will be a very good FS and Barber will occupy the other side unless Keo beats him out. Nolan will backup. I think safety has been improved. Of note, I'd like to see what Brice McCain could do with his speed at safety.

Allstar
06-25-2011, 01:17 AM
Corner is a more important position than Safety. We don't have a good one at either spot, so CB is the larger area for concern.

FirstTexansFan
06-25-2011, 01:18 AM
Both!

badboy
06-25-2011, 01:28 AM
Both!How can you compare Safey to Corner. I'm interested in your thought process.

FirstTexansFan
06-25-2011, 01:44 AM
How can you compare Safey to Corner. I'm interested in your thought process.

Thought process? I'm lucky if I remember what I had for breakfast lol. I look to you guys for real info ;)

Lucky
06-25-2011, 07:00 AM
How can you compare Safey to Corner.
It's not about comparing positions. One broken link can bring everything down. Everything the Texans currently have in the secondary is unknown or known to suck. Sure, it should be easier and cheaper to cover the safety positions. Should be. Thus far in Texans history, safety has been pain in the arse. Matt Stevens, the failed Marcus Coleman experiment, CC Brown, Eugene Wilson, etc. How can a Texan fan not be concerned about the safety spots?

IDEXAN
06-25-2011, 08:33 AM
Corner is a more important position than Safety.
Of course it is. Why ? It's really quite simple: the position demands a better athlete than safety does, just like tackle demands a better athlete than guard in the offensive line and everone knows and agrees that OT is a more valuable and important position than guard. Athletes get "paid" in the NFL.
And this isn't a theory, as there's factual evience to document the greater value of CB in the market place. Just look at the history of the NFL Draft and Free Agency. There's really no argument here.

HJam72
06-25-2011, 09:06 AM
Of course it is. Why ? It's really quite simple: the position demands a better athlete than safety does, just like tackle demands a better athlete than guard in the offensive line and everone knows and agrees that OT is a more valuable and important position than guard. Athletes get "paid" in the NFL.
And this isn't a theory, as there's factual evience to document the greater value of CB in the market place. Just look at the history of the NFL Draft and Free Agency. There's really no argument here.

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't necessarily mean WE need a corner(s) MORE than we need a safety(s). I think it's kind of a toss-up, unless we already have a good one on our roster.

DBCooper
06-25-2011, 09:28 AM
I'm going to go with corner.

If you have a good corner, he can stand on an island and let you do different things with your safeties.

But I wouldn't pass on a Troy Polamalu type at safety.

CloakNNNdagger
06-25-2011, 09:47 AM
You could almost look at this question by seeing what is likely to happen if a team has a "poor" cornerback vs. a "poor" safety........essentially having no cornerback vs. no safety at all (which seemed to be the case in many games last year). Without the safety, the cornerback would have to cover the receiver one on one and do his best. He'd probably win some battles and lose some. However, without the cornerback, the safety would lose every battle, if for no other reason than the receiver wouldn't even be covered for five or ten yards. Teams can "make it" with so-so safeties, but having so-so cornerbacks (especially 2 such cornerbacks) can lead to devastating big plays for the opposing offense.

Shaft75
06-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Like CND said...

Some of you guys need to be more cerebral about this. Couple points I want to make.

1) I think we have more of a make do cb core right now with the young talent we have. We are losing our two starting safeties, so that is TWO new guys on defense from day one. How do you feel about Nolan and Quin as our last line of defense? A step further... How do you feel about Quin being the general of our secondary? I just threw up in my mouth a little.

2) Think of who is actually on or has been on our roster at safety. Our best safety was either another teams trash or a converted corner. One could argue that the Texans d has suffered because of this. And here we go again converting a marginal corner, thinking he's the answer.

3) Great defenses have great safeties. And since we are trying to build something great with Wade & Co., well I don't think we can afford to avoid this position any longer.

Safety is more important to me right now.

m5kwatts
06-25-2011, 12:22 PM
Prediction:

Opening day safeties:
Quin
Keo

Opening day CBs:
Free Agent (#1 CB)
Brandon Harris (#2 CB)
Kareem Jackson (nickel)
Roc Carmichael (dime)
Sherrick McManis (gunner)

cut: Molden, McCain, Allen not re-signed


So who is that free agent #1 CB?

Likely: Ike Taylor
Outside shot: Jonathan Joseph
Unlikely: Nnamdi Asomugha

DocBar
06-25-2011, 01:14 PM
I have to go with safeties by a small margin on this one. It takes a better athlete, in general, to play corner but it takes a smarter player to play safety. Better safety play will hide some defecincies of our corners.

CloakNNNdagger
06-25-2011, 03:10 PM
Prediction:

Opening day safeties:
Quin
Keo

Opening day CBs:
Free Agent (#1 CB)
Brandon Harris (#2 CB)
Kareem Jackson (nickel)
Roc Carmichael (dime)
Sherrick McManis (gunner)

cut: Molden, McCain, Allen not re-signed


So who is that free agent #1 CB?

Likely: Ike TaylorOutside shot: Jonathan Joseph
Unlikely: Nnamdi Asomugha

Ike Taylor sounds like hes ready, willing to leave Pittsburgh (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/25/ike-taylor-sounds-like-hes-ready-to-leave-pittsburgh/)

From time to time over the past several months, the Steelers deftly have tried to get the word out through the media that cornerback Ike Taylor will be staying in Pittsburgh. Weve been told that Taylor plans to instead test the market once free agency opens, and Taylor himself later said he wont give the Steelers a hometown discount.

Since the Steelers rarely getting into bidding wars for free agents, especially then those free agents most recently played for the Steelers, Taylor seems to be resigned to the fact that his next contract will come from another team.

Ive been [in Pittsburgh] for eight years, Taylor told Hunter Paniagua of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, via NFL.com, from Taylors annual Face Me Ike football camp in Gretna, Louisiana. Ive been in that city more than any other city in my whole life, but time will tell. I see myself being anywhere I need to be. Wherever you put me, Im going to make home.

With Champ Bailey re-signed by the Broncos and only a few big names hitting the market at the cornerback position (Nnamdi Asomugha and Antonio Cromartie) and plenty of team having to spend plenty of money to comply with the expected minimum cash requirements of the salary cap, Taylor could be in high demand. But he says hes not thinking about how it will all shake out.

I just leave it up to my agent and Pittsburgh, Taylor said. When it comes down to getting serious, Im sure my agent is going to call me. Other than that, hell let me know when the time is right.

Given that the time cant even begin to be right until the lockout is over, heres hoping that the right time is coming soon.

eriadoc
06-25-2011, 03:16 PM
I vote Option C: coaching. I honestly can't believe that a 1st round CB looked as bad as he did last year without some coaching issues. I don't know if the back pedal thing, the scheme, or just a lack of quality teaching at this level, but I have grave concerns about the coaching on the defensive side of the ball.

Lucky
06-25-2011, 04:18 PM
Prediction:

Opening day safeties:
Quin
Keo

Opening day CBs:
Free Agent (#1 CB)
Brandon Harris (#2 CB)
Kareem Jackson (nickel)
Roc Carmichael (dime)
Sherrick McManis (gunner)

cut: Molden, McCain, Allen not re-signed

Jason Allen need not be re-signed (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3670/jason-allen), because he is already under contract for the 2011 season.

My bold roster/depth chart prediction for the secondary:

CB#1 - Free Agent
CB#2 - Jason Allen
CB#3 - Brandon Harris
CB#4 - Roc Carmichael
CB#5 - Kareem Jackson

FS - Glover Quin
SS - Free Agent
Reserves - Keo, Free Agent

gary
06-25-2011, 04:24 PM
Jason Allen need not be re-signed (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3670/jason-allen), because he is already under contract for the 2011 season.

My bold roster/depth chart prediction for the secondary:

CB#1 - Free Agent
CB#2 - Jason Allen
CB#3 - Brandon Harris
CB#4 - Roc Carmichael
CB#5 - Kareem Jackson

FS - Glover Quin
SS - Free Agent
Reserves - Keo, Free AgentI like this lineup.

Brandon420tx
06-25-2011, 05:01 PM
We'll probably keep a 6th CB and keep him inactive for the games, unless one of our other young ones is practice squad eligible, ... McMannis?

steelbtexan
06-25-2011, 05:17 PM
Wonder if one of the excess CB's could be traded for a WR like Buster Davis/Roy Williams etc....

badboy
06-25-2011, 05:36 PM
It's not about comparing positions. One broken link can bring everything down. Everything the Texans currently have in the secondary is unknown or known to suck. Sure, it should be easier and cheaper to cover the safety positions. Should be. Thus far in Texans history, safety has been pain in the arse. Matt Stevens, the failed Marcus Coleman experiment, CC Brown, Eugene Wilson, etc. How can a Texan fan not be concerned about the safety spots?If you read the title of this thread it is exactly about comparing positions. Your POV is correct that any position that suffers a breakdown can lead to the downfall and result in a loss, but no way is a long snapper as important to the game as AJ or Schaub. I don't think that was the purpose of the poster. If we had solid cover CBs on the roster, of course my POV would be to sign the best safety available in free agency but that is not the case. We need to shore up the corners & if possible get one more safety to go with Quin.

Lucky
06-25-2011, 05:43 PM
If you read the title of this thread it is exactly about comparing positions.
It's like asking, which ocean is largest? The Atlantic or the Pacific? If you're stuck in the middle without a boat, either will drown you.

So, largest area for concern... Corners or Safeties?

Answer: Yes. And Yes.

badboy
06-25-2011, 05:51 PM
Like CND said...

Some of you guys need to be more cerebral about this. Couple points I want to make.

1) I think we have more of a make do cb core right now with the young talent we have. We are losing our two starting safeties, so that is TWO new guys on defense from day one. How do you feel about Nolan and Quin as our last line of defense? A step further... How do you feel about Quin being the general of our secondary? I just threw up in my mouth a little.

2) Think of who is actually on or has been on our roster at safety. Our best safety was either another teams trash or a converted corner. One could argue that the Texans d has suffered because of this. And here we go again converting a marginal corner, thinking he's the answer.

3) Great defenses have great safeties. And since we are trying to build something great with Wade & Co., well I don't think we can afford to avoid this position any longer.

Safety is more important to me right now.While what you are saying about Cosby Quin is accurate it is not all the info. He was rated as the best FS in the nation the year he enterred the draft. More so than other corners he has the body type, size, speed, foot control & other skills to be a good safety, especially if the corner in front of him is good also.

badboy
06-25-2011, 06:21 PM
It's like asking, which ocean is largest? The Atlantic or the Pacific? If you're stuck in the middle without a boat, either will drown you.

So, largest area for concern... Corners or Safeties?

Answer: Yes. And Yes.Totally disagree with you. Using your example I see it as being in either ocean with two holes in your boat and deciding which to plug first and with what. Yes each hole could eventually sink the boat but each of us must evaluate the holes and how each effects the efficiency of the boat and the safe return of the boat to harbour (a win).

steelbtexan
06-25-2011, 06:31 PM
The good news is CB is going to be strong position in 2012 draft.

devo-x
06-25-2011, 07:07 PM
Safeties given that the two starters from last year have left (Pollard, Wilson)

gary
06-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Safeties given that the two starters from last year have left (Pollard, Wilson)Don't worry they will be replaced by unknowns.

2slik4u
06-25-2011, 08:14 PM
I'm with safeties on this one.

We have ignored elite safety prospects for years, with the FO throwing draft picks to the at the defensive front and cb's. I get it too, a better rush and you don't have to worry about your last line of defense. While I somewhat agree, don't all of the playoff teams have a top notch safety?

How we address it... I have no idea. Move Quin back, then sign a free agent? That is the only solution that comes to mind. As a matter of fact, put the number 1 FA safety on my list ahead of the stud corners out there.

Signing Aso would be my double rainbow.

I dont get it.....:thinking:

HJam72
06-25-2011, 09:08 PM
Totally disagree with you. Using your example I see it as being in either ocean with two holes in your boat and deciding which to plug first and with what. Yes each hole could eventually sink the boat but each of us must evaluate the holes and how each effects the efficiency of the boat and the safe return of the boat to harbour (a win).

So, we need to shove something in our safeties' holes? :mcnugget:

Rey
06-25-2011, 09:24 PM
IMO it's not about what the bigger concern is.

Between the two they need to be able to defend the pass. Whether that means a very strong cb unit with ok safeties or a very goo safety unit with ok corners or some combination of the two. Also pressure in the qb would help.

You can win with all kinds if combinations. We just need a little luck and a lot of good play and coaching.

The Pencil Neck
06-25-2011, 09:34 PM
We have to put together a unit that can perform up to at least a moderate NFL standard.

It's like an equation.

A+B+C+D > 100.

If you improve one position a great deal, you don't have to improve the other position quite as much to get to the same level. But ultimately, you've got to have all the pieces in place.

Right now, we don't really have anything. All the positions have to be improved whether it be by coaching players up, getting new players, or by moving players around.

Nnamdi and Weddle would be the ultimate. But even if we get those two guys, we've still got to get two other pieces up to snuff.

gary
06-25-2011, 10:29 PM
They let two safeties go just before the lockout and for good reason but they need a plan B.

badboy
06-25-2011, 10:41 PM
So, we need to shove something in our safeties' holes? :mcnugget:Er.. I'll leave that for you to handle since you thought of it.:spin: I am good at delegating. lol

m5kwatts
06-27-2011, 01:35 AM
Jason Allen need not be re-signed (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3670/jason-allen), because he is already under contract for the 2011 season.

My bold roster/depth chart prediction for the secondary:

CB#1 - Free Agent
CB#2 - Jason Allen
CB#3 - Brandon Harris
CB#4 - Roc Carmichael
CB#5 - Kareem Jackson

FS - Glover Quin
SS - Free Agent
Reserves - Keo, Free Agent

I was more hoping Allen wouldn't be re-signed. I thought he got picked on as much as any CB last year and just happened to throw in those 6 picks for good measure. The Dolphins outright released him. There's no telling he even makes it out of camp. Once a coach gets his hands on a player opinions can quickly change.

IDEXAN
06-27-2011, 08:42 AM
It's like asking, which ocean is largest? The Atlantic or the Pacific? If you're stuck in the middle without a boat, either will drown you.

So, largest area for concern... Corners or Safeties?

Answer: Yes. And Yes.
Bad example, so here's a valid one.
If you ask, "is Houston or Dallas the largest city in Texas" ?, the answer is not "Houston or Dallas", the correct answer is of course Houston. OK, got it now ?
So then, the answer to the thread title is corners. It's not that difficult.

TimeKiller
06-27-2011, 08:55 AM
Yes.

b0ng
06-27-2011, 11:11 PM
I think on this particular roster (not in general which position is one a team should concern itself with more), that both areas are gigantic areas of concern, but one position has had an influx of newer talent (CB's). The fact is, right now it looks like we are going to attempt to run an NFL defense with all corners and no safeties whatsoever, which is very concerning for me.

Our secondary is going to ****ing blow though if we still can't generate QB pressure. New idea for a thread, which area of this roster concerns you more. . . DE or DT? That one is also a doozy.

Wolf6151
06-28-2011, 04:02 AM
Obviously both areas are of major concern but I think FS/SS is the weaker position. At CB we at least have high round inexperienced draft picks while at FS/SS we have late round fodder and/or players moved to a new position. I want a great FS in FA.

beerlover
06-28-2011, 06:07 AM
Texans have invested more in CB position so safety should be largest area of concern, especially cutting loose both last years starting SS Bernard Pollard & FS Eugene Wilson.

IDEXAN
06-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Texans have invested more in CB position so safety should be largest area of concern, especially cutting loose both last years starting SS Bernard Pollard & FS Eugene Wilson.
Yes they have but are you really content with their largest investment at corner, Kareem jackson ? On the other hand, they are apparently moving their best corner to safety. Therefor I think there's more concern and uncertainty at corner than safety.

b0ng
06-28-2011, 10:12 AM
Yes they have but are you really content with their largest investment at corner, Kareem jackson ? On the other hand, they are apparently moving their best corner to safety. Therefor I think there's more concern and uncertainty at corner than safety.

Yes but they have at least brought in new blood into the CB position. Remember in 2009 when we had John Busing starting at SS before Pollard got here? I mean at least with the corners we have enough to play nickle, dime and have a back-up or two. Right now we've got Glover Quin, Troy Nolan and prayers that both of them stay healthy all year long.

I think a lot of people are getting caught up in whether CB or S is the more important position on the football field, when the actual question has more to do with our roster than anything else. Right now the S position concerns a fan like me quite a bit because while our entire secondary was awful last year, it seems that all draft picks and probable impact free agents are going to go to the CB side. What if we figure out that Troy Nolan is going to get picked on if he's starting at a S spot? Who are we going to replace him with if it came to that? What happens if Quin gets hurt?

steelbtexan
06-28-2011, 10:30 AM
I would rather the Texans pick up a top notch CB like Joseph or ASO in FA. Then if one of the other CB's in the group work out the secondary will be much better. (As good as any group of CB's since Glenn/Dunta)

Rick will probably sign a CB like Cromartie or Rodgers and a S like Whitner to provide vet ledership on the backend. Either way the DB group will be better than the steaming pile of crap that it was last yr.

Atleast we have a DC that has an idea of what a competent defense is supposed to look like.

badboy
06-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Cornerbacks are first line of defense against the pass and linebackers against the run. Safeties are second line against each. Both are important but if LBs & CBs do their job, safeties for the most part are "safe ties" to wrap up the play and avoid TDs.

The Pencil Neck
06-30-2011, 07:47 PM
Cornerbacks are first line of defense against the pass and linebackers against the run. Safeties are second line against each. Both are important but if LBs & CBs do their job, safeties for the most part are "safe ties" to wrap up the play and avoid TDs.

I don't really agree with that because it assumes that the passing game is only to the WR's. But there are more guys out there getting thrown to than just the #1 and #2 WR. We could have two shutdown corners and our pass defense still be crap because we don't have anyone to cover the #3 WR or the TE's or the RB's.

And that's why we need safeties and LBs that can cover.

I want a defense that doesn't get victimized by TEs and screens. Call me crazy.

DocBar
06-30-2011, 09:02 PM
Cornerbacks are first line of defense against the pass and linebackers against the run. Safeties are second line against each. Both are important but if LBs & CBs do their job, safeties for the most part are "safe ties" to wrap up the play and avoid TDs.Safeties also make sure the backfield is in the right coverage/positions and have to be able diagnos the play quickly so they can help out in the biggest area of need. Safeties are usually very intelligent/experienced players. They also act as enforcers (at least they used to) and intimidate wr's, te's and rb's coming over the middle.

drs23
06-30-2011, 09:11 PM
Safeties also make sure the backfield is in the right coverage/positions and have to be able diagnos the play quickly so they can help out in the biggest area of need. Safeties are usually very intelligent/experienced players. They also act as enforcers (at least they used to) and intimidate wr's, te's and rb's coming over the middle.

Doc, now that that's out, now what?

Texan_Bill
06-30-2011, 09:12 PM
Largest Area for Concern... Corners or Safeties?


Yes!!

DocBar
06-30-2011, 09:57 PM
Doc, now that that's out, now what?Hell, I don't know.

badboy
06-30-2011, 11:24 PM
I don't really agree with that because it assumes that the passing game is only to the WR's. But there are more guys out there getting thrown to than just the #1 and #2 WR. We could have two shutdown corners and our pass defense still be crap because we don't have anyone to cover the #3 WR or the TE's or the RB's.

And that's why we need safeties and LBs that can cover.

I want a defense that doesn't get victimized by TEs and screens. Call me crazy.My understanding is the defense Phillips will be using for the most part will use linebackers to cover TEs and RBs. #3 & #4 WRs if used will be covered by our #3 & #4 corners. Occasionally, a safety will cover at TE. Due to size mismatches, that should be rare.

You are correct that we need safeties and LBs that can cover but that is not the debate but rather corners or safeties is largest area of concern.

badboy
06-30-2011, 11:32 PM
Safeties also make sure the backfield is in the right coverage/positions and have to be able diagnos the play quickly so they can help out in the biggest area of need. Safeties are usually very intelligent/experienced players. They also act as enforcers (at least they used to) and intimidate wr's, te's and rb's coming over the middle. I agree with what you say, however, if corners are good the safety would have nothing to say but direct attention to other areas again as the secondary line of defense.

If we had Asomugha on one side and another vet like Cromarte or Joseph, I would have the FS work over the top and SS crowd the box. WIth the "twin" safeties we seem to be going back to where both will be expected to cover and attack forward, I'm certain Phillips will try to mislead what he wants safeties to do each play.

In my fantasy, we get ASO, Joseph and a vet FS.

Shaft75
07-29-2011, 12:38 PM
Neither anymore!

badboy
07-29-2011, 12:51 PM
I agree with what you say, however, if corners are good the safety would have nothing to say but direct attention to other areas again as the secondary line of defense.

If we had Asomugha on one side and another vet like Cromarte or Joseph, I would have the FS work over the top and SS crowd the box. WIth the "twin" safeties we seem to be going back to where both will be expected to cover and attack forward, I'm certain Phillips will try to mislead what he wants safeties to do each play.

In my fantasy, we get ASO, Joseph and a vet FS.Well 2/3 of fantasy fulfilled. Word is price for Asomugha dropping fast. If agent was smart he push his client towards Houston.

76Texan
07-29-2011, 01:09 PM
Yes.

At first, I thought you call this 4 weeks ago, but then I realized it's something you just added, LOL!

---Barwin---Watt-Mitchell-Smith---Mario---
----------Cushing------------Ryans--------
-Jackson---------------------------Joseph-
-------------Quin--------Manning----------
Answers.

Surreal McCoy
07-29-2011, 01:44 PM
At first, I thought you call this 4 weeks ago, but then I realized it's something you just added, LOL!

---Barwin---Watt-Mitchell-Smith---Mario---
----------Cushing------------Ryans--------
-Jackson---------------------------Joseph-
-------------Quin--------Manning----------
Answers.

Why you wanna put all the white boys on one side of the D, huh? I suppose if you had your way you'd stick Reed in at corner for K-Jax, too!

badboy
07-29-2011, 02:05 PM
Why you wanna put all the white boys on one side of the D, huh? I suppose if you had your way you'd stick Reed in at corner for K-Jax, too!There are black players and white players on Texans? They look all steel blue to me.