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View Full Version : More evidence of Mario Williams' Mediocrity


dalemurphy
06-20-2011, 02:14 PM
Criticism of the organization, coaching staff, and many of the players on the Texans is quite kosher on this board. However, for reasons I don't fully understand, when I began to criticize Mario's effort and production midway through last season, it seemed to upset people a great deal. I'm not sure why. Usually, fans tend to defend overachievers... players like Arian Foster, Demeco Ryans, Antonio Smith, Vonta Leach, etc... Guys that have clearly milked every bit of production out of their limited abilities.

Part of the irrational defense of Mario is likely a hangover from the 2006 draft when obnoxious UT crossover fans went ballistic when the Texans wisely chose not to draft Vince Young. I loved the Mario pick then and still have nothing critical to say about it now. But, it would be foolish not to recognize how Mario's play and effort has dropped significantly the past two seasons. Last season, particularly, he entirely disappeared after the Raider game. I have argued that Antonio Smith has been our best defensive lineman since midway throught the '09 season and it is shocking that more people aren't in agreement with me. I'm still hopeful Mario has a huge season this year... Given the possibility of good health and the reality that it is a contract year for him, I'm almost counting on it. Anyway, here is the interesting analysis put together by Pro Football Focus on the best and worst pass rushing defensive ends last season and over the course of the past three years (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/).

eriadoc
06-20-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm not saying you specifically do this, but a lot of people seem to pile on Mario and overlook the injury issues. He is less effective when he's playing hurt. All players are. The question becomes, "Is he better injured than whoever would replace him?" Antonio was our best DL last year. But he's not better than a healthy Mario, and no one behind Smith is better than an injured Mario.

Injury is part of the evaluation process and certainly fair game. But to criticize a player for being injured all the time is a different argument than to just say he's ineffective, which is far too often what people seem to do with Mario. And IMO, that's a hangover from the 2006 draft. People expect him to be "Super" Mario all the time, even when he's injured.

When healthy, I think Mario Williams is one of the three best all around DEs in the game. When injured, he's still pretty good, but not elite. I do not think he's one of the three best pass rushers in the game, which is what too many people want him to be. A healthy Mario Williams will give you double digit sacks every year and play the position better than almost anyone. An injured Mario plays well enough to keep most other guys off the field.

That's not worth blasting the guy over. It's more of an indictment on the front office/coaching staff for having so little depth behind him that he has to keep playing when he's injured. JMO.

TEXANRED
06-20-2011, 02:23 PM
Criticism of the organization, coaching staff, and many of the players on the Texans is quite kosher on this board. However, for reasons I don't fully understand, when I began to criticize Mario's effort and production midway through last season, it seemed to upset people a great deal. I'm not sure why. Usually, fans tend to defend overachievers... players like Arian Foster, Demeco Ryans, Antonio Smith, Vonta Leach, etc... Guys that have clearly milked every bit of production out of their limited abilities.

Part of the irrational defense of Mario is likely a hangover from the 2006 draft when obnoxious UT crossover fans went ballistic when the Texans wisely chose not to draft Vince Young. I loved the Mario pick then and still have nothing critical to say about it now. But, it would be foolish not to recognize how Mario's play and effort has dropped significantly the past two seasons. Last season, particularly, he entirely disappeared after the Raider game. I have argued that Antonio Smith has been our best defensive lineman since midway throught the '09 season and it is shocking that more people aren't in agreement with me. I'm still hopeful Mario has a huge season this year... Given the possibility of good health and the reality that it is a contract year for him, I'm almost counting on it. Anyway, here is the interesting analysis put together by Pro Football Focus on the best and worst pass rushing defensive ends last season and over the course of the past three years (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/).

Am I misreading it? Mario is the 17th best pass rusher from 2008-2010 and Smith is #20 in the bottom 20?

So Smith is the worst pass rusher in the NFL and wonder why we can't get behind the idea that Smith is a better Dlineman?

dalemurphy
06-20-2011, 02:31 PM
Am I misreading it? Mario is the 17th best pass rusher from 2008-2010 and Smith is #20 in the bottom 20?

So Smith is the worst pass rusher in the NFL and wonder why we can't get behind the idea that Smith is a better Dlineman?

Somewhat misread:

Antonio is the 20th worst over the three year period... not the worst.

And, my criticism of Mario is over the past season and one half. He was fantastic in 2008. As I believe I mentioned, I'm glad we drafted him and loved his play in 2007 and in 2008.

Regarding Antonio Smith, I have very little to say about him in 2008, other than he often played NT (so, I'm not sure how that was factored into PFF's work)... But, my love affair of Antonio began in the second half of 2009. All I have said regarding Antionio vs. Mario, is that Antonio gives more consistent effort and was more productive in 2010.

eriadoc
06-20-2011, 02:38 PM
All I have said regarding Antionio vs. Mario, is that Antonio gives more consistent effort and was more productive in 2010.

See, there's where you lose me. Until one of y'all comes up with some real method by which to measure someone's "effort", I'm going to continue discounting what you say here. It was a BS accusation out of college that took on life when everyone blasted the Texans for taking him 1st overall.

All that matters are results. If Mario puts out 10% of the effort that you think he should and still has a productive career, then your estimate is flawed. Now, as I said above, I agree with you about the results, but you're attributing that to "effort" (whatever that means), and I'm telling you that the man played injured a LOT. And how the hell do you measure "effort" with an injured player who is out there in the trenches EVERY SINGLE PLAY while he's injured? That seems like a lot of effort, to me. It'd be a lot easier to go sit in the tub and get treatment.

dalemurphy
06-20-2011, 02:58 PM
See, there's where you lose me. Until one of y'all comes up with some real method by which to measure someone's "effort", I'm going to continue discounting what you say here. It was a BS accusation out of college that took on life when everyone blasted the Texans for taking him 1st overall.

All that matters are results. If Mario puts out 10% of the effort that you think he should and still has a productive career, then your estimate is flawed. Now, as I said above, I agree with you about the results, but you're attributing that to "effort" (whatever that means), and I'm telling you that the man played injured a LOT. And how the hell do you measure "effort" with an injured player who is out there in the trenches EVERY SINGLE PLAY while he's injured? That seems like a lot of effort, to me. It'd be a lot easier to go sit in the tub and get treatment.

You make a very good point. Unfortunately, I waffle between hysterical fan and critical-thinking wannabe writer. So, sometimes the two meet in a way that is not congruous. Frustration got the better of me last year (particularly when there was denial about his injury). So, while I acknowledged, in writing, that his mediocre play could be attributed to the injury, that frustration still came across.

Now, what I'm saying, is that the team and Mario (for financial reasons) can not afford to have a third, consecutive disappointing season for any reason, whether injury or effort-related. I'll certainly be rooting for the removal of the variable (whatever it was) that derailed the majority of his last two seasons.

eriadoc
06-20-2011, 03:04 PM
You make a very good point. Unfortunately, I waffle between hysterical fan and critical-thinking wannabe writer. So, sometimes the two meet in a way that is not congruous. Frustration got the better of me last year (particularly when there was denial about his injury). So, while I acknowledged, in writing, that his mediocre play could be attributed to the injury, that frustration still came across.

Now, what I'm saying, is that the team and Mario (for financial reasons) can not afford to have a third, consecutive disappointing season for any reason, whether injury or effort-related. I'll certainly be rooting for the removal of the variable (whatever it was) that derailed the majority of his last two seasons.

LOL, props for that statement. I agree with you about having a good season. If he continues to have injury affect his play, then his productivity will impact all that anyway. I just think as a fan, it's unfair to try and judge the effort of an injured player, particularly one that plays in the trenches and has 300-600 or more pounds pushing him around, and doing it for every play, which a lot of healthy DL don't do. All of that aside, however, it's still the results that will determine his future with the team and the game.

Double Barrel
06-20-2011, 03:09 PM
I heard on the radio the other night that Mario has the most sacks in the league since he was drafted. Is this correct information?

dalemurphy
06-20-2011, 03:14 PM
I heard on the radio the other night that Mario has the most sacks in the league since he was drafted. Is this correct information?

No! Perhaps he has the most sacks of anyone drafted in 2006. I just did a quick check based off the first name that came to mind: Jared Allen. Allen had 63 sacks to Mario's 48 over that 5 year span.

Ole Miss Texan
06-20-2011, 03:18 PM
I heard on the radio the other night that Mario has the most sacks in the league since he was drafted. Is this correct information?

I looked into this during the season. Mario has like the 4th most sacks of any DE in the NFL (since '06).

Blake
06-20-2011, 03:26 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_io3Q-rUp0k0/SRT-JjKa5LI/AAAAAAAAAvY/23MSr0crqVM/s400/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.jpg

HOU-TEX
06-20-2011, 03:31 PM
Maybe we should replace him with Jamison

This has been the worst off-season yet. Thank God for fishing

Rey
06-20-2011, 03:39 PM
I think there is a difference between not having a high motor and not giving effort...

Mario does not have a high motor, but he's not out there dogging it...quitting on plays, neglecting his responsibilities because he's tired or doesn't feel like it...

To say that he is not giving the proper effort is to suggest all of those things.



One thing that I have noticed playing sports throughout my whole life is that the more talented players not only make the game look easy and generally move more methodically, but they also learn how to conserve energy.

Guys like Tim Bulman don't have to conserve energy. They can go all out every play...

1) because they won't be in for that long
2) If they don't they won't make any kind of impact

We need Mario to be able to make key plays throughout the season. A hurt or exhausted Mario is a lot harder to replace than a hurt or exhausted Antonio.

Hook a shark while fishing and just looking it doesn't appear that he's giving as much effort as a little perch trying to shake loose...But if you are the one with them on your line, you clearly know which one is harder to reel in...

Double Barrel
06-20-2011, 03:39 PM
No! Perhaps he has the most sacks of anyone drafted in 2006. I just did a quick check based off the first name that came to mind: Jared Allen. Allen had 63 sacks to Mario's 48 over that 5 year span.

Thanks for looking, man. It was one of the night guys on either 610 or 790 who said it. Probably Barry Warner. Dude is often full of it.

dalemurphy
06-20-2011, 03:47 PM
I think there is a difference between not having a high motor and not giving effort...

Mario does not have a high motor, but he's not out there dogging it...quitting on plays, neglecting his responsibilities because he's tired or doesn't feel like it...

To say that he is not giving the proper effort is to suggest all of those things.



One thing that I have noticed playing sports throughout my whole life is that the more talented players not only make the game look easy and generally move more methodically, but they also learn how to conserve energy.

Guys like Tim Bulman don't have to conserve energy. They can go all out every play...

1) because they won't be in for that long
2) If they don't they won't make any kind of impact

We need Mario to be able to make key plays throughout the season. A hurt or exhausted Mario is a lot harder to replace than a hurt or exhausted Antonio.

Hook a shark while fishing and just looking it doesn't appear that he's giving as much effort as a little perch trying to shake loose...But if you are the one with them on your line, you clearly know which one is harder to reel in...


Interesting analogy. It's tough to watch the shark (mario) get reeled in by tight ends, though... Especially, when he has the physical tools to be Reggie White. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have his makeup. That being said, if Antonio Smith is a perch, he was the biggest and baddest perch I've ever seen!

Rey
06-20-2011, 03:49 PM
Thanks for looking, man. It was one of the night guys on either 610 or 790 who said it. Probably Barry Warner. Dude is often full of it.

Vandameer said the same thing a while ago on the morning show...

I checked myself and they were wrong...

Rey
06-20-2011, 03:54 PM
Interesting analogy. It's tough to watch the shark (mario) get reeled in by tight ends, though... Especially, when he has the physical tools to be Reggie White. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have his makeup. That being said, if Antonio Smith is a perch, he was the biggest and baddest perch I've ever seen!


See I think that both are closer to the middle than the analogy I gave (Obviously a shark and a perch were for the visual effect)....

I don' think Mario is among the hardest working, most relentless d-lineman to ever play...

And Antonio Smith is definitely not a perch. I think he's better than average...

Or if we are going big fish little fish, maybe he's close to a piranha.

Dutchrudder
06-20-2011, 04:43 PM
Both Ray Edwards and Charles Johnson are coming off massive years, consistently generating pressure from the left side of the Vikings and Panthers defenses respectively. Yet, presuming a new CBA gets done, both men will be free to negotiate contracts with any team as they see fit. Given the need for pass rushers, it’s hard to imagine they won’t get big offers from somewhere.

Hmmmmmmmmm... Which one of them would be useful in Wade's schemes?

houstonspartan
06-20-2011, 08:00 PM
What's really confusing is your sad, inexcusable, defense of Gary Kubiak. This team could go 0-16 and you'd STILL find a reason to excuse the head coach.

Everyone has their perspective. Some like Mario, some don't. Personally, I would trade Mario so fast his head would spin. His heart isn't in the game. But that's just my opinion.

DocBar
06-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Criticism of the organization, coaching staff, and many of the players on the Texans is quite kosher on this board. However, for reasons I don't fully understand, when I began to criticize Mario's effort and production midway through last season, it seemed to upset people a great deal. I'm not sure why. Usually, fans tend to defend overachievers... players like Arian Foster, Demeco Ryans, Antonio Smith, Vonta Leach, etc... Guys that have clearly milked every bit of production out of their limited abilities.
Part of the irrational defense of Mario is likely a hangover from the 2006 draft when obnoxious UT crossover fans went ballistic when the Texans wisely chose not to draft Vince Young. I loved the Mario pick then and still have nothing critical to say about it now. But, it would be foolish not to recognize how Mario's play and effort has dropped significantly the past two seasons. Last season, particularly, he entirely disappeared after the Raider game. I have argued that Antonio Smith has been our best defensive lineman since midway throught the '09 season and it is shocking that more people aren't in agreement with me. I'm still hopeful Mario has a huge season this year... Given the possibility of good health and the reality that it is a contract year for him, I'm almost counting on it. Anyway, here is the interesting analysis put together by Pro Football Focus on the best and worst pass rushing defensive ends last season and over the course of the past three years (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/).

I've done my share of MW bashing, but I find this preposterous, at best. Mario IS top 5 in sacks since he came in the league (48.5) and is very solid against the run. My problem with him is that he isn't the game-changer he could be unless the spotlight is on.
I can't begin to consider what you mean by limited abilities in the bolded quote above. Foster, Ryans and Leach have limited abilities? That's a pathetic description of those players. Maybe you should become an MLS fan. That's what people play and watch who lack talent and/or have over protective mothers.

Texan_Bill
06-21-2011, 12:03 AM
I'm not saying you specifically do this, but a lot of people seem to pile on Mario and overlook the injury issues.

Ummmmm, not only that, but was Sausage Boi or Reggie Bush a better option??? :yawn: I think not!!!

steelbtexan
06-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Bowling= drinking

Thanks for the research DM.

This team needs more guys like Ryans/Vonta/Foster and less guys like MW. I will give sober thoughts tomorrow.

Dutchrudder
06-21-2011, 12:41 AM
What's really confusing is your sad, inexcusable, defense of Gary Kubiak. This team could go 0-16 and you'd STILL find a reason to excuse the head coach.

Everyone has their perspective. Some like Mario, some don't. Personally, I would trade Mario so fast his head would spin. His heart isn't in the game. But that's just my opinion.

I bet his 'heart' will be in the game during this upcoming contract year. I think he's going to play his ass off, not for Wade or the Texans, but for this imminent big $$$ contract he will be offered in the 2012 off-season.

HJam72
06-21-2011, 02:57 AM
Interesting analogy. It's tough to watch the shark (mario) get reeled in by tight ends, though... Especially, when he has the physical tools to be Reggie White. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have his makeup. That being said, if Antonio Smith is a perch, he was the biggest and baddest perch I've ever seen!

OK. Fine. If we have to put makup on the man to get the production we're looking for, then let's just do it and get it over with.

bigbrewster2000
06-21-2011, 08:51 AM
I heard on the radio the other night that Mario has the most sacks in the league since he was drafted. Is this correct information?

He has the most sacks of any lineman in their first 5 seasons in the league I think is what you heard. I have read that somewhere too.

HJam72
06-21-2011, 08:56 AM
He has the most sacks of any lineman in their first 5 seasons in the league I think is what you heard. I have read that somewhere too.

No, no. He has more sacks in preseason that any other D-lineman from the first round of his specific draft class....since 2008....while playing injured...

dalemurphy
06-21-2011, 09:22 AM
He has the most sacks of any lineman in their first 5 seasons in the league I think is what you heard. I have read that somewhere too.

No... He is the sack leader among all 2006 NFL rookies. That's it. A number of players have more sacks than he over the past five seasons. And, there are many, many players with more than 48 sacks over their 1st 5 years of their career.

Still, he has certainly been a productive pass rusher through the first 5 years of his career while also playing the run well. Again, my criticism is specific to his performance the past 1.5 years, especially when looking at how much he is getting paid and how much he will be asking for after this season.

EllisUnit
06-21-2011, 10:07 AM
No... He is the sack leader among all 2006 NFL rookies. That's it. A number of players have more sacks than he over the past five seasons. And, there are many, many players with more than 48 sacks over their 1st 5 years of their career.

Still, he has certainly been a productive pass rusher through the first 5 years of his career while also playing the run well. Again, my criticism is specific to his performance the past 1.5 years, especially when looking at how much he is getting paid and how much he will be asking for after this season.

the last 1.5 seasons has been his injury years. If he comes back healthy this season and is a sack master then we will pay him those big bucks. He is gonna need to have an 12+sack season.

Texecutioner
06-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Dale and I rarely agree, but this is one subject I am with him 100% on. Mario is a good player and one of the better DE's in the league, but he has never been a consistent game changer. He is at times in certain games, but then he seems to disappear for like two games and then resurface again. Every year Texan fans complain about the horrible pass rush we have, and while Mario is only one guy he is supposed to be that game changer that is a monster all of the time. He is paid the kind of money to be that kind of guy, and as Dale stated he will command a ton of money for his next contract and he won't be worth it, unless he somehow excells in this 3-4 and becomes that guy. Just like they said in college, he takes plays off and isn't one of those non stop motor guys all of the time and that's the biggest problem with him and I don't see why anyone would expect that to change at this stage of his career.

beerlover
06-21-2011, 10:28 AM
Texans scouting department missed (at least public reports indicate as much) that Mario Williams had pre-existing foot conditions. Even before camp the first pick overall had surgery to remove both big toe nails & later was sidelined with plantar fasciitis. Add to those issues which seem to be resolved? he was shutdown for lingering hip & shoulder injury's. To date he has had not played a single, full, healthy NFL season so 6 years later we still don't know exactly the extent of his unrealized full potential :mariopalm:

I will say this: With all the extra time off to recover fully healthy along with Wade coming in to revamp this defense, placing Mario in a playmaker's role, MW stands his best chance yet to become a dominant defensive force matching Texans interest & rather large investment.

TheCD
06-21-2011, 10:42 AM
My problem with him is that he isn't the game-changer he could be unless the spotlight is on.

This would be a great thing if we actually played in meaningful games...:kubepalm:

dalemurphy
06-21-2011, 12:48 PM
This would be a great thing if we actually played in meaningful games...:kubepalm:

Well, we were 4-2 coming out of our bye week last season (essentially in 1st place in the division) and Mario Williams made zero impact during that 5? game losing streak. Those were meaningful games and Mario was missing in action... I know the hernia was bothering him but, did it get worse during the bye week? I don't know. I was really hoping for some inspired play heading into those divisional games and we did not get it from Mario... We got it from Antonio Smith... Few others on the defense showed much of anything. Very disappointing!!

DocBar
06-21-2011, 05:09 PM
This would be a great thing if we actually played in meaningful games...:kubepalm:You have to take that in the full context of being a Texans fan. Meaningful to us is playing a team in our division, a game where we might get to or above .500 or playing a team with a winning record. Playoffs shouldn't be in our vocabulary unless talking about other teams in the NFL forum.
:kubepalm::wadepalm::toropalm::vincepalm::hankpalm :

DocBar
06-21-2011, 05:11 PM
double post. Please delete this.

playa465
06-22-2011, 01:57 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_io3Q-rUp0k0/SRT-JjKa5LI/AAAAAAAAAvY/23MSr0crqVM/s400/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.jpg

Ohhhh man...I have to use this one at WORK!!!!