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D-ReK
04-20-2005, 12:22 AM
But he fumbles two or three times every year. Has he always hated being a Raider that bad?

Can you name any return man that doesn't have a fumble or two per year?

rdbrem
04-20-2005, 12:24 AM
Can you name any return man that doesn't have a fumble or two per year?

2 fumbles on 20 returns is pretty steep, I think. At that rate, JJ would have fumbled about 9 times this year.

Also, didn't we just sign Swinton, who's also a return guy, with better stats?

Grid
04-20-2005, 12:26 AM
I wouldnt not consider any of Buchanan's stats from last year as a valid measure of his talent.

The only thing it shows is that he has a bad attitude.

We finally get to see if our team can handle a lockerroom cancer and turn him into a quality player.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 12:27 AM
2 fumbles on 20 returns is pretty steep, I think. At that rate, JJ would have fumbled about 9 times this year.

Also, didn't we just sign Swinton, who's also a return guy, with better stats?

Swinton would probably return kickoffs and Buchanon would return punts...Either that or the team may feel that they've invested too much into him to have him risking injury by returning punts...The KR battle will be very interesting this preseason...

threetoedpete
04-20-2005, 12:33 AM
Ah Yeah. I think he hated it there that bad. The article from SF.com said Hoke knows him. He came into the league wanting to be the next Dejion Sanders. Worst Case scenario he's our nickle back this year and makes four to five TD oportunities for us next year. Worst case scenario, one of the starters goes down, PB comes in and with an improved pass rush, something he never had in Oakland, he doubles the TD oportunities. He has the speed
to turn every ball that reaches his hands a touch down. Fumbling is bad no doubt, but what would have 24 points from the d ment to the club last year ? Can I say consevatively, he's going to get at least four oportunities to take something to the house ? Call me optomistic, but I can live with the fumbles.

Hottoddie
04-20-2005, 12:34 AM
I threw an idea out a month or two ago, & was told, in no uncertain terms, that it would never happen. Now, while that may still be true, this trade does make it a little more of a possiblity.

I asked the question, "Could the Texans move Glenn to the FS position?". I'm sorry, but with this trade, I have to ask it again.

Remember all the resistive comments about moving Coleman to the FS position after he had just made 7 INT's? What did the Texans do? They drafted a rookie & moved Coleman to the FS position.

I know that the majority on this board believe PB will play the nickel, but if he's as talented as CC & Dom must believe him to be, & with the new emphasis on speed on the defensive side, putting PB in as a starting CB & sliding Glenn over to FS, would give us a serious increase in speed in our secondary. Besides, it's not like we'll be putting in a rookie. He's a 3 year veteran that was in a situation he wasn't happy with.

Both Coleman's & Glenn's contracts expire in 2007. Glenn's contract is considerably larger, but he's got a lot more speed than Coleman. There's only 2 years difference in their ages. Maybe, just maybe, the Texans are going to entertain trade possibilities for Coleman. His contract is reasonable, he successfully made the switch to FS after coming off a season in which he made 7 INT's as a CB. Thus, he's versatile & tradeable.

It's just a thought.

Grid
04-20-2005, 12:36 AM
I still dont think its likely. Glenn just is not built like a FS.. he would not prosper in that position.

besides.. I think he said he wouldnt play FS.

Hottoddie
04-20-2005, 12:41 AM
I still dont think its likely. Glenn just is not built like a FS.. he would not prosper in that position.

besides.. I think he said he wouldnt play FS.

So then, the question arises, would he want to play FS, keep his current contract, & get to continue playing in Houston, or would he rather move to another city & play for less, just to continue playing the CB position? Only he can make that decision.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 12:42 AM
Glenn is too small to be a good FS...I realize Jason Simmons is the same size, but he is built sturdier than Glenn...With that said, I think that anything is possible with this team, and I will leave the door open to that idea...I think we could have Glenn at FS and Coleman at SS and play it like the Patriots do, where they don't use a traditional "free safety" and "strong safety", they view them as "left safety" and "right safety", both of them being FS types that can hit...

scourge
04-20-2005, 12:46 AM
Glenn just doesnt have the size to be a good FS... granted, Bob Sanders is only about 5'8, but Coleman is a much better fit as the FS than Aaron could be.

Hottoddie
04-20-2005, 12:47 AM
Glenn is too small to be a good FS...I realize Jason Simmons is the same size, but he is built sturdier than Glenn...With that said, I think that anything is possible with this team, and I will leave the door open to that idea...I think we could have Glenn at FS and Coleman at SS and play it like the Patriots do, where they don't use a traditional "free safety" and "strong safety", they view them as "left safety" and "right safety", both of them being FS types that can hit...

That's all I'm asking, is that we consider the possibility of it happening. With that kind of speed & cover ability, how much would it help our front 7? It should definitely give them more time to get to the QB.

MojoX
04-20-2005, 12:47 AM
So then, the question arises, would he want to play FS, keep his current contract, & get to continue playing in Houston, or would he rather move to another city & play for less, just to continue playing the CB position? Only he can make that decision.
Glenn has already made that decision. I read an article quoting Glenn as saying he would not play FS. He did say he would happily be the CB who comes in with the nickle package, though. I personally don't think Glenn wants to play a position with such an emphasis on hitting.

Grid
04-20-2005, 12:54 AM
As good a player as Glenn has been for us.. I dont think we will have any problem with letting him finish his career as a CB with us.

dalemurphy
04-20-2005, 01:13 AM
the most disappointing thing about the trade with oakland is that we aren't trading with the Redskins. They gave Denver #75 this year and a 1st and a 4th next year for #25 overall this year. On top of that, everyone knows they want Jason Campbell. To get Campbell all anyone need do is to jump in front of Washington's 25th pick. And, by the way, they have 4 days to figure out how to do it.

Titanic
04-20-2005, 01:16 AM
I'm not going to flame anyone here, I'd just like to point a couple of things out about the Buchanon trade.

#1 People seem to think the addition of PBuch is going to help them stop Peyton Manning and the colts. While on the surface that would seem to be the case, the actual facts do not bear that out. Who held that offense down last year? The Jaguars twice and the Patriots twice are the examples that leap into my mind. Now I ask you which of those two teams had a better pair of corners than Drob and Glenn last year? Neither one. They won because they pressured Peyton up the middle and schemed well. You can have 15 shut down corners on your roster, but if you don't get pressure and get Peyton mixed up schematically it is not going to matter.

#2 Much like the Babin trade last year I am not saying you got an awful player. Buchanon may not have played up to his ability yet, but he's supremely talented and he's young and cheap. The problem I had with both deals is what you gave up. At this point Buchanon was clearly on the trade block, and you not only gave up a second and a third, you gave up a relatively high second and third. No matter how you spin it, even if he turns into Deion you overpayed. It's just like the Giants last year with Manning. Unless Eli turns into John Elway II they gave up two high firsts and a fourth and fifth for one player, when they could have stayed put and gotten Rivers or Big Ben and still had those other 3 picks to work with. It just makes no sense. This trade is indefensible.

I can understand a sense of homerism(many of my brethren think the Titans will go 10-6 this year) but at some point you just have to say enough is enough. Casserly has done a piss poor job the last two or three years. Has he added a few good players? Of course, but even the Cardinals and Bengals added a few good players throughout the 90s. The point is that he has not added those players in an even remotely efficient fashion. You traded the entire meat and potatoes of your draft last year for Jason Babin, to a division rival who desperately needed those picks to rebuild no less. Then you vastly overpay for Buchanon, when if you don't improve your pass rush all the corners in the world won't matter. I like the acquisitions, I just don't like what you paid for them. How are you guys not screaming for Casserly's head? I just don't get it.

Titanic

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 01:23 AM
No matter how you spin it, even if he turns into Deion you overpayed.

And all credibility goes flying straight out the window.

They gave up one net player to get a 1st round talent at an extremely cap friendly price. Seems pretty easy to defend.

Got to love comments on overpaying coming from a fan of a team with $28 mil in deadspace on their cap this year.

disaacks3
04-20-2005, 01:24 AM
No matter how you spin it, even if he turns into Deion you overpayed. That comment alone merits some form of ridiclule. I'll leave that part to a future poster.... :yap

Grid
04-20-2005, 01:28 AM
hey dale, just wanted to link ya to this thread of mine in the draft forum (and anyone else interested in the possibility of a P.Buch to skins trade)

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=8258

Titanic
04-20-2005, 01:29 AM
Don't be a doofus :P I'm saying that even if you get lucky and he turns into Dieon for what he has done up to now and what his portfolio looks like you got robbed. For example....

Lets say Saturday our GM Floyd Reese decides he needs the 203rd pick in the draft, because he has a funny feeling some guy at that spot is going to be great. So he trades our next four first rounders for that pick. Now even if whoever he took at 203 somehow magically turns into the best player ever, he still massively overpayed for that 203rd overall pick. Giving up 4 first rounders for the 203rd pick is unjustifiable, no matter how it turns out. It's like poker. You can go all in with whatever you want, but if you go all in with 2/7 offsuit and happen to make a hand and win, that doesn't make it the correct play, it just makes you a lucky SOB. Capische?

Grid
04-20-2005, 01:32 AM
we traded our 2nd rounder and a 6th rounder for a 25 year old former first round selection.. and moved up in the third.

and you want to compare that to trading 4 firsts for the 203rd pick?

(just in case ya cant figure that logic. We got Henson for a 6th rounder.. we turned that into a 3rd rounder. We traded our 2nd and OUR 3rd, and kept the Cowboys 3rd.. therefore.. we traded a 2nd and 6th, and moved up in the 3rd)

MojoX
04-20-2005, 01:34 AM
1) When you can trust your corners in man coverage, you can scheme all sorts of ways to get pressure on the QB. That's what Capers did with the Steelers; that's what he will do with the Texans. This team is about to unleash that big playbook of blitzes. With Peek on the field, Babin (the first rookie OLB to start in a Capers defense) in his second season, speedy ILBs who can cover, and the draft just days away (a chance to had to the DL or OLB spots), we may see that pressure yet.

2) How can we say they overpaid when we don't know what the market for Buchannon was? It's weird how many message board posts there are about "overpaid" this and "value" that as if we know the real market values. Before anyone says it, I know all this prognistication is in essence subjective; everybody has an opionion. But what about basing our criticisms and analysis on evidence?

No one is calling for Casserly's head because no GM hits on 100% of his moves and Casserly has a good track record. Compare Casserly to his colleagues.

I personally think that putting two picks into one guy you "know" will pan out is better than wasting picks on that less than 50% chance that any one of two guys will. That's just me; I value quality over quantity.

Titanic
04-20-2005, 01:38 AM
So because you made one good deal(Henson) and got a third round pick you can afford to throw that pick away? Because you got the pick by making another team make a bad deal that somehow excuses you making a bad deal yourselves? No it does not. That pick is #78 overall, it doesn't matter how you got it. That would be like us trading Randy Starks for two bottles of Zima and a subscription to Maxim just because you let us rip you off and draft him. Or buying a Babe Ruth rookie card for two bucks at a flea market and then selling it for five bucks because "it was cheap, and we turned a profit!" That still doesn't make it the most effective use of the resources at hand. Get serious.

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 01:38 AM
They are getting a #17 overall player for the #47 & #78 picks. Look it up on the trade chart and you will see that is a steal. Quite the opposite of your little 203rd pick for 4 1st rounders example. Plus, the value to the Texans is further enhanced because now the Raiders are stuck with all of Buchanon's signing bonus on their cap whereas the Texans only have to account for his salaries. I'll trust Jon Hoke's opinion on DB's more than yours (especially after the Deion comment) no offense.

I agree on the Henson deal though. They gave up a 3rd round pick--doesn't matter how they got it.

pilottim
04-20-2005, 01:38 AM
Seems to me he has a huge ego and is a big headcase. Who gives themselves their own nickname and talks about themselves in third person. He just seems like one of those *****s that will never be happy anywhere.

He seem like Kobe Bryant, thinks he is better than he really is, I hope I am wrong, but I just think we could have gotten better guys with our 2nd and 3rd round picks.

Jimmie Johnson once said dynasties are built in the second and third rounds.

Vinny
04-20-2005, 01:42 AM
Our second and third rounds this year will end up with Phillip Buchannon and someone else. We shall see. We are going to end up with 3 players in this 3 round first day draft on Saturday, and we already know one of them.

Grid
04-20-2005, 01:45 AM
To be of that opinion Titanic, i would have to think that Buchanon is only worth 5 bucks, or two bottles of Zima and a subscription to Maxim (which, btw.. is a very nice analogy to come up with off the top of your head).

I think that Buchanon is worth the 2nd and extra 3rd. So, to me.. it would be like trading Starks for Casey Hampton, or paying 5000 bucks for a Babe Ruth rookie card and selling it for 20,000 (sorry if that seems low.. im not well educated in the worth of baseball cards).

Titanic
04-20-2005, 01:47 AM
Once again you're using faulty logic. Just because he was drafted 17th overall that does not make him worth any more or less now. Akili Smith was drafting 3rd overall. So was Andre Wadworth. Curtis Enis was fifth. All of them were drafting highly, with high expectations, and were busts, as was Buchanon. At this point he is not the gamechanging ballhawking corner from Miami, he is a 3 year veteran who has been erratic and had made it very clear he wasn't going to play in Oakland this year. Yet somehow Al Davis turned a player he essentially had to trade, who had yet to even remotely live up to his hype, into a 2nd and third round pick. That is absurd. If you had gotten him for a third and a fourth, or even two thirds I would be saying what a good deal it is. But you gave up a second in the draft. Wait until Saturday and look at the players on the board when that pick comes up, then come back here and tell me how great this deal was.

Titanic

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 01:52 AM
That is absurd. If you had gotten him for a third and a fourth, or even two thirds I would be saying what a good deal it is.

No, the idea that players are bar-coded and their value is so well defined as to make the difference between a 2nd and a 3rd and two 3rds the difference between an absurd trade and a good deal is what is truly absurd.

Grid
04-20-2005, 01:52 AM
this is a pointless debate. As long as you feel that Buchanan is a bust, and I(or we) feel that he can prosper in our system.. there is no way for either of us to convince the other that they are wrong.

We are just going to have to wait and see how he plays.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 01:57 AM
Wait until Saturday and look at the players on the board when that pick comes up, then come back here and tell me how great this deal was.

The players that are available at 47 are inconsequential since none of them will be proven playmakers...While, for whatever reason, consistency is an issue with Buchanon, you can't argue the fact that he is a game-breaker...If you even try to argue that, there are 7 defensive or special teams touchdowns, all but one of which being in a win, that can do all of my debating for me...

TexansTrueFan
04-20-2005, 01:57 AM
obviously they know something we dont know or see, i mean our front office has made some very good decesions IMO, and if they think he can be an impact player or make a difference i wont complain, i think we should all wait until mid way through the season before we judge their decesions.

clandestin
04-20-2005, 02:01 AM
I'm not going to flame anyone here, I'd just like to point a couple of things out about the Buchanon trade.

#1 People seem to think the addition of PBuch is going to help them stop Peyton Manning and the colts. While on the surface that would seem to be the case, the actual facts do not bear that out. Who held that offense down last year? The Jaguars twice and the Patriots twice are the examples that leap into my mind. Now I ask you which of those two teams had a better pair of corners than Drob and Glenn last year? Neither one. They won because they pressured Peyton up the middle and schemed well. You can have 15 shut down corners on your roster, but if you don't get pressure and get Peyton mixed up schematically it is not going to matter.

#2 Much like the Babin trade last year I am not saying you got an awful player. Buchanon may not have played up to his ability yet, but he's supremely talented and he's young and cheap. The problem I had with both deals is what you gave up. At this point Buchanon was clearly on the trade block, and you not only gave up a second and a third, you gave up a relatively high second and third. No matter how you spin it, even if he turns into Deion you overpayed. It's just like the Giants last year with Manning. Unless Eli turns into John Elway II they gave up two high firsts and a fourth and fifth for one player, when they could have stayed put and gotten Rivers or Big Ben and still had those other 3 picks to work with. It just makes no sense. This trade is indefensible.

I can understand a sense of homerism(many of my brethren think the Titans will go 10-6 this year) but at some point you just have to say enough is enough. Casserly has done a piss poor job the last two or three years. Has he added a few good players? Of course, but even the Cardinals and Bengals added a few good players throughout the 90s. The point is that he has not added those players in an even remotely efficient fashion. You traded the entire meat and potatoes of your draft last year for Jason Babin, to a division rival who desperately needed those picks to rebuild no less. Then you vastly overpay for Buchanon, when if you don't improve your pass rush all the corners in the world won't matter. I like the acquisitions, I just don't like what you paid for them. How are you guys not screaming for Casserly's head? I just don't get it.

Titanic

It would truly be a waste of time to comprehensively respond to your post so I'll just throw out a quick few points.

#1

--An exception does not make a rule. Yes, the patriots won without elite CBs. By that same logic all teams should ONLY draft QBs in the 6th round 'cause the patriots did it' and 'that's what works.' As a titans fan, I am SURE you will change your tune next year after having lost your two starting CBs this year.

#2

--I'm going to have to quote you here: "At this point Buchanon was clearly on the trade block, and you not only gave up a second and a third, you gave up a relatively high second and third. No matter how you spin it, even if he turns into Deion you overpayed."

First, let me thank you for making it easy with this ridiculous statement.

Second, let's rephrase your statement "You can have one of the best CBs to ever play the game! (deion sanders from your example) for two seasons for the low, low price of 1.5 million dollars and two draft picks....who respectively have a %50 chance and a %75 chance of ever starting in the league."

There is only one team in the entire NFL that wouldn't jump all over that deal in a heartbeat! While I certainly don't expect PB to be another Deion, he's still got the same potential, 4.31 speed, and ability to become a very solid CB for the right team. (BTW the titans are that one team that passed on the above deal cause they mismanaged their cap so badly they'd have to sell their stadium to come up with the 1.5 million.)

#3

--I'll keep this short. Our first picks from the last two drafts have been in consideration for the ROY awards. The first one, Andre Johnson, made the pro-bowl this year, the second one, Dunta Robinson SHOULD have made it also. Tell you what, why don't you offer me any number of players from your last THREE YEARS drafts that I would even consider taking for those two guys...didn't think so....and I'm not even counting the players that were picked below those two guys.

On a closing note...enjoy your rebuilding years...the titans always remind me of THAT famous baseball phrase "SWING AND A MISS!" We sure appreciate the 2 wins a season that you all are hooking us up with for the next few years...thanks for that.

Vinny
04-20-2005, 02:09 AM
that's gotta be the post of the month.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 02:10 AM
On a closing note...enjoy your rebuilding years...the titans always remind me of THAT famous baseball phrase "SWING AND A MISS!" We sure appreciate the 2 wins a season that you all are hooking us up with for the next few years...thanks for that.

:rofl: Ouch...

jacquescas
04-20-2005, 02:33 AM
here is the thing. he is just 24, he will primarily be the nickel back this year while Glenn is probably in his last starting year, he doesn't have to be pressed into service, and with dunta he won't have a huge role. I think that we got a real steal and i'm very happy, I feel this will allow us to take either Williamson or Benson whichever falls to us, cause at this point i think one of them will.

TexansTrueFan
04-20-2005, 03:00 AM
i agree with Jacquescas i am glad we got him, plus i figure he will be the one to replace glenn when he is gone.

Davis37
04-20-2005, 03:06 AM
I kinda like this trade. PB is young and very fast. With AG teaching him, I think he could become a great CB. I think that this trade is what is gonna get us past the Colts this year! :thumbup

TexansTrueFan
04-20-2005, 03:09 AM
I kinda like this trade. PB is young and very fast. With AG teaching him, I think he could become a great CB. I think that this trade is what is gonna get us past the Colts this year! :thumbup


yeah i see us spliting with the colts, and the only way to really beat the is by having great CBs and a great pass rush, which needs to improve or be addressed.

Davis37
04-20-2005, 03:13 AM
Well, with 3 good CB's we can play more man to man and blitz more up the middle.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 03:16 AM
Well, with 3 good CB's we can play more man to man and blitz more up the middle.

We have 4 good CBs, not 3 :coolb:

Davis37
04-20-2005, 03:20 AM
We have 4 good CBs, not 3 :coolb:

I think Faggins is pretty good, but not at the same level as DROB, AG, and PB.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 03:24 AM
Petey probably isn't on the same level as them right now, but he has improved every year he's been in the league and I can't see him doing anything but getting better...I would stack our 4th CB up against any team's 4th WR...

jacquescas
04-20-2005, 03:25 AM
and Buchanon agaisn't any teams 3rd WR is great as well. the only weakness we have at the position is Glenns age, and how much more he will decline this year.

TexansCanes
04-20-2005, 03:36 AM
While I certainly don't expect PB to be another Deion

i trust "showtime" to get it done.

D-ReK
04-20-2005, 03:42 AM
i trust "showtime" to get it done.

I heard Buchanon was training with Deion an his playing style is similar to Deion, but I definitely don't think he's the next coming of Deion Sanders...

Honestly, I forecast him being the 3rd CB on the depth chart, but he'll probably pull in 3 or 4 INTs...As long as he plays well and keeps his mouth shut, I'll be happy with him...

jacquescas
04-20-2005, 04:04 AM
i dont know if anyone else has done this, but the redskins were supposedly going to trade the number 9 for buchanon and the number 38.

the 9 pick is worth 1350 points which redskins give up, the 38 is worth 520, which means the value of buchanon is 830 or the equivalent of the 21st pick of the draft.

the 47 is worth 430 and the 78 is worth 200, which means we got him for 630 total points, 200 points less than the redskins would have. the equivalent of the 30th pick in the draft.

so we did get him at a better value than the other trade rumors that were out there.

ToroRojo
04-20-2005, 04:46 AM
I think those saying this a bad trade need to look at the draft this year. After the 1st 15 picks it is 2nd round talent and of the 1st 15 they are not many sure things, if any. None of the cornerbacks this year would have been drafted above Buchanan. He ran under a 4.3 coming out of college and from the scouting reports I have read this year he seems to have more problems being overly aggressive than anything else. The Scouts at ESPN comment on his tremendous athleticism and speed. He can mirror receivers and has extremely fluid hips. Furthermore, he is a dangerous return man.

Sometimes you need a change of scenery and at 24 he may be ready to shine. So essentially we gave up a 2nd round pick for a 24 year-old with star potential and low-cap figure. How this is a bad trade is beyond me. I just don't see the talent in this draft and I don't think CC does either. Time will tell, but condemning this trade already is asinine. And with our history of 2nd/3rd picks, I am even more excited. Houston is not Oakland, the tempations, the history of badboys, etc, do not exist. He has a chance to shine here opposite Dunta. Two young, explosive cornerbacks is a good thing. Hopefully, in time the haters will see my new boy Philly B rock the stands.

spence425
04-20-2005, 05:48 AM
texans traded their second and one of their thirds for buchannon. this is a good trade. he's still young, 17th pick in 2002. he'll be good in the right situation and will be a good addition to the D.

O.G.
04-20-2005, 06:45 AM
I heard Buchanon was training with Deion an his playing style is similar to Deion, but I definitely don't think he's the next coming of Deion Sanders...

Honestly, I forecast him being the 3rd CB on the depth chart, but he'll probably pull in 3 or 4 INTs...As long as he plays well and keeps his mouth shut, I'll be happy with him...

I agree with that. Plus listening to alot of GM's including Casserly, this is a particularly weak draft.

O.G.
04-20-2005, 06:48 AM
I think those saying this a bad trade need to look at the draft this year. After the 1st 15 picks it is 2nd round talent and of the 1st 15 they are not many sure things, if any. None of the cornerbacks this year would have been drafted above Buchanan. He ran under a 4.3 coming out of college and from the scouting reports I have read this year he seems to have more problems being overly aggressive than anything else. The Scouts at ESPN comment on his tremendous athleticism and speed. He can mirror receivers and has extremely fluid hips. Furthermore, he is a dangerous return man.

Sometimes you need a change of scenery and at 24 he may be ready to shine. So essentially we gave up a 2nd round pick for a 24 year-old with star potential and low-cap figure. How this is a bad trade is beyond me. I just don't see the talent in this draft and I don't think CC does either. Time will tell, but condemning this trade already is asinine. And with our history of 2nd/3rd picks, I am even more excited. Houston is not Oakland, the tempations, the history of badboys, etc, do not exist. He has a chance to shine here opposite Dunta. Two young, explosive cornerbacks is a good thing. Hopefully, in time the haters will see my new boy Philly B rock the stands.

You hit the nail on the head right there.

cadahnic
04-20-2005, 07:26 AM
I agree, but disagree. This draft is one of the deepest as far as players with potential that we have seen in 5 years. True there is a lack of star quality throughout the draft with maybe only 5 or 6 players that would be 1st round picks anyway, but three of the corners in this years draft will be pretty good. I like the trade, from all standpoints, Buchanan is young, fast, aggressive, can return kicks, and has a low cap figure. Those point right there make him worth it. Now will his attitude change or will he be a cancer if he does not get what he wants. But look at it this way a 700,000 cancer is pretty benign and we can trade his *** if we dont like him. GREAT TRADE TEXANS!!!

Texan in Japan
04-20-2005, 07:33 AM
Just finished the thread. Wow, look at the discussion this trade generated. I like this trade a lot. PB is an explosive playmaker that with Hoke and AG tutelage can become a star.

I'm starting to see a much different defense coming next year. I think Dom is getting ready to "unleash Hell" on other offenses. I picture that scene from Gladiator, and see Peek, Babin, DRob, etc. smacking QBs to the ground. If by chance a pass gets out, then AG, PB, Coleman getting the pick and taking it yard. This is exciting! Trolls can say what they want, next year is gonna be fun.

cadahnic
04-20-2005, 07:36 AM
Texan in Japan let's not get ahead of ourselves, we are still quite unproven, but you are right that PB is a gamebreaker.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 07:38 AM
Phillip is a play maker he was at the U of Miami and he was when he was a in oakland, but he didn't get along with turner (it happens) He is a great pick up for this team and the texans didn't give up that much considering his talent level. He may not be a very good tackeler but he can KR/PR very well he is good in man to man coverage and hes not a rookie. He is very fast and he will be solid for this team. I am a buffalo bills fan and I would have loved to pick this guy up. Great pick up good job in the front office of the texans. Trust me the office did the right thing. And you can still try and pick up Derrick Johnson if still avial or a WR to pair along side Johnson.. You all are looking to be a much stronger team this year in your D and that should have a lot of teams concerned.

keyfro
04-20-2005, 07:41 AM
the way i look at it is that the raiders haven't had really good coaches in years...gruden was a good head coach but as far as assistants i think they've come up short for many years...john hoke is one of the best in my mind...it seems like every year we are barely keeping him from getting other jobs around the league or in college...personally i'd like to see hoke as our d. coordinator but that's just me...hoke and glenn can mold this guy into a great corner and glenn's eventual replacement...glenn at 33-34 years of age this season is about the age where you start looking at retirement...and personally i'd rather have his replacement already here instead of hopeing to get the right guy in the draft...another thing to keep in mind is with glenn's age comes his groin injury that seems to be bothering him every once in awhile...last year he seemed ok but the year before he was put on IR because of it...if he went down this year and we didn't have buchanan we'd be in a mess come time to play the colts...now we wouldn't miss a beat

Honoring Earl 34
04-20-2005, 07:47 AM
:woot In my viewpoint the Raiders spent a first on Woodson and Buchanon. This should be a top notch pair of CBs . If this is not the case its probably not on the players . Buchanon ran a 4.31 at the combine in 2002 .

Texan in Japan
04-20-2005, 07:55 AM
Some interesting info from GBN on 2002 draft results...

http://www.gbnreport.com/draftgrades02.htm

Oakland: Bolstered by all those extra picks acquired in the deal with Tampa Bay for the rights to former head coach Jon Gruden, the Raiders led the league in premium picks at 2002 draft. And the Raiders made it pay off with a draft class that looks like it provide a number long-time NFL starters. CB Phil Buchanon, the first of two Raiders' #1 picks, for example, stepped into the starting lineup when Pro Bowler Charles Woodson went out with an injury and was outstanding before being injured himself; Buchanon should combine with Woodson to give the Raiders the NFL's best shutdown CB combo for years to come. And as an added bonus, Buchanon doubled as a top punt returner. Meanwhile, LB Napoleon Harris, the Raiders' other first-round selection, started at MLB since the opening of the season and did not look out of place, finishing fourth on the team with 82 tackles. The Raiders also look they got a couple of keepers in the second round in OT Langston Walker and TE Doug Jolley. Walker was considered to be something of a project when drafted, but the Cal graduate more than held his own is two starts as an emergency injury replacement early in the season. For his part, Jolley really came on late in the season and provided QB Rich Gannon with a reliable outlet target. At the same time, though, the Raiders got almost nothing from players selected in the later rounds. Grade: A

Top 10 defensive rookies # Player Pos Team Rd
1 Julius Peppers DE Carolina 1
2 Roy Williams SS Dallas 1
3 Dwight Freeney DE Indianapolis 1
4 Edward Reed FS Baltimore 1
5 Phil Buchanon CB Oakland 1
6 Coy Wire SS Buffalo 3
7 Derek Ross CB Dallas 3
8 Marques Anderson SS Green Bay 3
9 Napoleon Harris LB Oakland 1
10 Carlos Hall DE Tennessee 7

CanadianTitansFan
04-20-2005, 08:05 AM
Our second and third rounds this year will end up with Phillip Buchannon and someone else. We shall see. We are going to end up with 3 players in this 3 round first day draft on Saturday, and we already know one of them.

Vin - I was a Casserly critic before this trade, and this has dione nothing but cement my opinion.

Before this trade happened, I thought Casserly managed his personnel as if he was on the cusp of winning a championship. When you're a young expansion team building quality within your starting 22, you don't draft second and third string QB's and punt snappers imo. You also don't give up 3 quality picks for a late first rounder that 20 plus teams passed on.

You know if you feel like your one player away, "The Window is Open", the ol Reese mantra...then maybe you give away too much for that specific need. But the Texans just aren't there in the cycle yet. Casserly's been impatient...maybe he is feeling the pressure to win now and he's mortgaging the long term.

When you look at the cb movement this off season, with Samari walking for nothing, Surtain unable to garner serious investment, second tier guys like Dyson garnering little interest, and then consider Buchanon's less than consistent play, and woeful attitude, the great depth of CB in this draft...this is a real headshaker for me.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 08:16 AM
This trade was worth it, He is better than samari rolle better than an injured TY Law and younger and will be better than surtain. The texans are building a great young team and by next year we should know where they stand amoung the nfl. The just need to pick up a good saftey and one more solid LB and a good second rec for AJ. I am telling you the Texans office is doing a good job this offseason and they got a steal for PB

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 08:43 AM
When you look at the cb movement this off season, with Samari walking for nothing, Surtain unable to garner serious investment, second tier guys like Dyson garnering little interest, and then consider Buchanon's less than consistent play, and woeful attitude, the great depth of CB in this draft...this is a real headshaker for me.

You would think Titans' fans might have learned something from their recent cap problems, like hellooo, there is one in the NFL. Every team in the league knew the Titans would be dumping all sorts of starters including Rolle due to the cap so why trade for him? Rolle will be 29 when the season begins and just received an $11 mil signing bonus and a contract that will pay $18 mil over his 1st three years. Surtain is 29 vs. 24 and carrying a $5.85 mil cap hit vs. $700k. There is a reason Dyson is garnering little interest. Still scratching your head?

Davis37
04-20-2005, 09:02 AM
I love this trade! :thumbup PB is only 24, only has a hit of $700,000 in our cap this year, and with AG as a tutor he can turn out to be amazing. The guy ran a freaking 4.3 40! This is some incredible speed. I cant wait to see the face of Peyton Manning when Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley are all getting shut down by man 2 man coverage while we blitz 7 in his face! Of course we will have Coleman over the top just in case, but if we blitz enough up the middle and pressure him like the Pats, he wont have time to throw. :heh:

LBblitz
04-20-2005, 09:12 AM
IMO the trade was a good one. Many of the critics are saying that he was inconsitent at Oakland but I think that was due to a poor front 7. The emphasis on speed at LB and the ability to pressure the QB will drastically improve the play of our secondary.

MikeMc
04-20-2005, 09:26 AM
I agree with Davis37. Keep in mind that the Texans play in the AFC South (with pass-happy teams like INDY, JAX & TEN) so there is a need for 3 and 4 quality CBs because a #3&4 CB will be on the field half the time, not just on 3rd & long situations.

Also, has anyone noticed the salary-cap dumps? The fact that the Texans do not have to pay the signing bonus for PB (just the $700k & 800K base over the next two years), might suggest something else in the near future.

Another thing, if the Secondary can't keep the WRs in check, how is the pass rush going to work?

In the end, I feel that 2nd rd & 3rd rd picks were a bit much, but maybe that was the only way to get a top CB that will only cost $1.5mil against the salary cap over the next two years. I wonder what happens this weekend now!

TheOgre
04-20-2005, 09:32 AM
I'll need to sleep on this... all I know is that the Chiefs were offering a 4th for Surtain and we just got a 2nd and 3rd for Buchanon.

The reason that the Chiefs can get Surtain for a cheap pick is his salary cap hit. A second reason is age. Surtain has a lot more mileage on him. Surtain might end up being waived (for salary cap reasons) if they cannot trade him anyway. Saban is just trying to get some kind of value for him. Meanwhile, Buchanon has a low rookie contract and is young.

Toxicology
04-20-2005, 09:33 AM
We win on this deal, but i need someone to supply the specific dollars to prove it.

1. drafting is about projecting and potential. So, if you value the 2nd and 3rd round picks, it's because you think that we can get someone with potential. Well, that is exactly what Buchanon brings. Proven physical skills. Playmaker. To say that he is a bust for the rest of his NFL career is crazy. He has not made the immediate impact of a Dunta Robinson, but few do.

2. Let's talk dollars. We know that Buchanon will cost us about $1.5MM for 2 years. That's fact.

--- Someone tell us what the rough cap hit would be for our 2nd and 3rd round pick. I'll be willing to bet a lot of money that it is significantly more than what Buchanon will cost.

--- Further to the point on dollars: the Salary Cap is about opportunity cost. The true analysis of this trade is to compare the 2nd and 3rd round picks with Buchanon and what we can get with the money we saved under the cap.

If someone will plug in the numbers, I think this should end the debate.

Yankee_In_TX
04-20-2005, 09:45 AM
Nevermind. I've been sold on this move.

beerlover
04-20-2005, 09:46 AM
The reason that the Chiefs can get Surtain for a cheap pick is his salary cap hit. A second reason is age. Surtain has a lot more mileage on him. Surtain might end up being waived (for salary cap reasons) if they cannot trade him anyway. Saban is just trying to get some kind of value for him. Meanwhile, Buchanon has a low rookie contract and is young.

Ogre is absolutley correct :thumbup also since pb was such a recent draft pick I'm sure Casserly and company scouted him in 2002 and probably rated him higher than any CB who would be available in this draft @ #13. for only a 2nd and 3rd round pick!

Davis37
04-20-2005, 09:47 AM
I agree with Davis37. Keep in mind that the Texans play in the AFC South (with pass-happy teams like INDY, JAX & TEN) so there is a need for 3 and 4 quality CBs because a #3&4 CB will be on the field half the time, not just on 3rd & long situations.

Also, has anyone noticed the salary-cap dumps? The fact that the Texans do not have to pay the signing bonus for PB (just the $700k & 800K base over the next two years), might suggest something else in the near future.

Another thing, if the Secondary can't keep the WRs in check, how is the pass rush going to work?

In the end, I feel that 2nd rd & 3rd rd picks were a bit much, but maybe that was the only way to get a top CB that will only cost $1.5mil against the salary cap over the next two years. I wonder what happens this weekend now!

Thanks Mike. Some people are saying that we overpayed for PB. The 2nd and 3rd round picks we traded for him are valuable but I think he is worth alot more. His is a young, fast, playmaker, that only costs us 700k and 800k for 2 years... That saves us alot of cap room to make some FA additions.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 09:49 AM
You have never heard of SHOWTIME ? Phillip was the top corner in his draft and he played at the U of Miami there make Players there (Great football program)

dalemurphy
04-20-2005, 09:51 AM
I don't really know anything about $ and cents of football.

But my naive little self cannot imagine trading a #2 and a #3 for someone I've never heard of and comes with bad vibes.


someone you've never heard of?? I don't understand fans like you. You obviously don't pay attention to football: college or pro. It's safe to say you are not qualified to pass any judgement on any football decision that the team makes.

wags
04-20-2005, 09:52 AM
Phillip was the top corner in his draft and he played at the U of Miami there make Players there (Great football program)

I think Jammer was the top CB, but PB was second off the board.

TheOgre
04-20-2005, 09:53 AM
I refer to UM (Miami) as "The Factory". They roll out top NFL players better than any other college these days. How many NFL busts do you see from there?

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 09:58 AM
I think Jammer was the top CB, but PB was second off the board.

Good call my bad, I think PB has been better than Jammer

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 09:59 AM
I refer to UM (Miami) as "The Factory". They roll out top NFL players better than any other college these days. How many NFL busts do you see from there?


Bust isn't in the vocab of the U of Miami..... Anyone who is anyone that wan't to go pro would love to go to that school.. They are a top flight organization..

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 10:02 AM
I think Jammer was the top CB, but PB was second off the board.

Jammer was the top CB actually taken, but Buchanon was projected by many as the 1st CB who would be taken. San Diego liked Jammer's size and took him.

TexanExile
04-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Vernon Carey comes to mind as a UM bust, but he's only been in the league one year. Couldn't even crack the starting lineup for the Dolphins' terrible O-line during their mail-it-in 2004 season. (Hmmm....he hasn't proved his worth as a starter on the O-line, so maybe in '05 they'll label him a "project" and plop him into a permanent starting role early. Wait, that was another team I was thinking about. :heh: )

Anyway, you're right about UM. They are without a doubt one of the best developmental programs for pro football. There are not many busts out there from their high-round draftees. I just hope that PB will grow into the kind of UM guy that Andre Johnson is already. Bring the attitude on the field, but don't be a knucklehead off the field.

I'm uneasy about PB's attitude, but overall I think this was an interesting move with a lot of potential.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:09 AM
Jammer was the top CB actually taken, but Buchanon was projected by many as the 1st CB who would be taken. San Diego liked Jammer's size and took him.

Jammer hasn't been anything special for a 5th overal pick.. SD just has back luck with corners Quintin Jammer, Sammy Davis and the trade for Jamar Fletcher none of three are anything special.. They need to address that with one of there early picks this year they need a shut down croner they allow to many passing yards and it hurts them big time.. There corners never produce that many INTS either..

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:09 AM
Hey guys. Came here last night to see what was up and decided I had to chime in. I'm a fan of this trade because of all of the athletic ability that Buchanon brings to the table... And trust me, as a lifetime Florida State Seminole and current student (and certainly the ONLY Texans fan from the beginning anywhere on this campus), I know that PB is absolutely legit when he wants to. No one's mentioned this yet, but doesn't it kinda seem like this is the end for Aaron Glenn and not the beginning of PB as a 3rd DB? Seems like I remember hearing talk about cutting Glenn right around the time we cut Sharper, and a June 1 cut really wouldn't surprise me. Wondering if someone here knows something that I don't about Glenn's status.

Here's to Marcus Spears at #13.

wags
04-20-2005, 10:10 AM
but Buchanon was projected by many as the 1st CB who would be taken.

That's weird because Jammer was taken 5th overall. If Buchanan was rated that high you would think he would have gone closer to the top ten or someone would have traded up for him.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:11 AM
Vernon Carey comes to mind as a UM bust, but he's only been in the league one year. Couldn't even crack the starting lineup for the Dolphins' terrible O-line during their mail-it-in 2004 season. (Hmmm....he hasn't proved his worth as a starter on the O-line, so maybe in '05 they'll label him a "project" and plop him into a permanent starting role early. Wait, that was another team I was thinking about. :heh: )

Anyway, you're right about UM. They are without a doubt one of the best developmental programs for pro football. There are not many busts out there from their high-round draftees. I just hope that PB will grow into the kind of UM guy that Andre Johnson is already. Bring the attitude on the field, but don't be a knucklehead off the field.

I'm uneasy about PB's attitude, but overall I think this was an interesting move with a lot of potential.

PB is good, is Robinson had a good year last year look for PB to out perform him, Phillip is SHOWTIME and will provide may good highlights on ESPN Primetime through out the season.

wags
04-20-2005, 10:12 AM
They need to address that with one of there early picks this year they need a shut down croner they allow to many passing yards and it hurts them big time..

Their GM said in an interview that their pass rush was the problem.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:12 AM
That's weird because Jammer was taken 5th overall. If Buchanan was rated that high you would think he would have gone closer to the top ten or someone would have traded up for him.

I think people where worried about his size, PB isn't that great as a tackler but he can cover very well and has the speed to recover when beat.. and a game breaker in the returning game

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:13 AM
Their GM said in an interview that their pass rush was the problem.

I saw that also but! You have to admit Jammers nothing special, that was kind of a weak draft overal

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:15 AM
Think about some of the other UM guys to come out as your prototypical "thug" and turn into something big in the NFL. Not that I'm directly making this comparison, but Ray Ray was a pretty big thug coming out of college, as was Shockey. Won't even mention Ed Reed and all of his problems off of the field. But yes, looking at the recent talent to come out of the U... Heck, Vilma and Williams last year right there with Dunta for DROY. And for a Nole, I was screaming for Vince Wilfork last year... Now I'm screaming for Baron or Travis Johnson, but as a realist, Spears at 13 would be a great fit for us and a tremendous 3-4 end.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:15 AM
Hey guys. Came here last night to see what was up and decided I had to chime in. I'm a fan of this trade because of all of the athletic ability that Buchanon brings to the table... And trust me, as a lifetime Florida State Seminole and current student (and certainly the ONLY Texans fan from the beginning anywhere on this campus), I know that PB is absolutely legit when he wants to. No one's mentioned this yet, but doesn't it kinda seem like this is the end for Aaron Glenn and not the beginning of PB as a 3rd DB? Seems like I remember hearing talk about cutting Glenn right around the time we cut Sharper, and a June 1 cut really wouldn't surprise me. Wondering if someone here knows something that I don't about Glenn's status.

Here's to Marcus Spears at #13.

PB will be starting over Glenn, Glenn is pretty much in the same boat as Sharper

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:17 AM
Think about some of the other UM guys to come out as your prototypical "thug" and turn into something big in the NFL. Not that I'm directly making this comparison, but Ray Ray was a pretty big thug coming out of college, as was Shockey. Won't even mention Ed Reed and all of his problems off of the field. But yes, looking at the recent talent to come out of the U... Heck, Vilma and Williams last year right there with Dunta for DROY. And for a Nole, I was screaming for Vince Wilfork last year... Now I'm screaming for Baron or Travis Johnson, but as a realist, Spears at 13 would be a great fit for us and a tremendous 3-4 end.


I swear somethings in the water down in Miami, they are un Real

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:17 AM
I'm just afraid that we're gonna let Glenn go come June 1. He's meant a lot to this organization since coming into the league and it'd be a shame to just cast him away, especially since I'm pretty sure we're in a decent cap situation for now, though when Johnson and Carr's contracts get bigger, that might change.

Also, are we pretty much casting off Davis after this year with all of this talk about Benson at 13?

Joe Texan
04-20-2005, 10:17 AM
I can see it, as JJ Moses has had some trouble parting the sea and making it to the opposite shore, We have given someone else a chance to take his spot. We also have a back up so we do not need to keep the loser. And the backup can back up Glenn when he gets winded after taking a ball to the house.

ubecool454
04-20-2005, 10:17 AM
buchanon is only 24 years old

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:17 AM
I swear somethings in the water down in Miami, they are un Real

Yeah, steroids, drugs, and hookers... lol... jk.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:19 AM
Glenns Gone are june 1st or maybe a draft day trade for a very very late pick but I dought it very much

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:21 AM
Yeah, steroids, drugs, and hookers... lol... jk.

Come on man, don't be made bc they always beat you up a little bit :rolleyes: jk I love watching my Canes play your noles.. and it great living in florida you get to see the game everytime they play.. Always a good game no dought

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:21 AM
Seems to me the OLine did a good enough job this past year opening holes through zone blocking for Davis, though admittingly, the only Texans games I actually got to watch on TV were the two Jags games and the Sunday nighter. At least statistically they were fine. DD had his second straight pretty good year, and we're talking about a running back? Situation almost reminds me of TJ Duckett to the Falcons or maybe better yet, Ron Dayne to the Giants.

Williamson would also be a nice fit at 13 to go across from Johnson and send Jabar "Let me stick the ball out 2 yards before the goalline" Gaffney to the slot. Seems like Williamson would step in immediately and have a big impact, getting Carr to 20 TDs for the first time in his career.

beerlover
04-20-2005, 10:22 AM
if in fact this trade is legit then why is there no posting by the Texans :confused: this is starting to feel like April Fools all over again :wacko:

still waiting for confirmation on the Texans official site http://www.houstontexans.com/

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:22 AM
if in fact this trade is legit then why is there no posting by the Texans :confused: this is starting to feel like April Fools all over again :wacko:

It's all over the place, ESPN, NFL.com, Profootballtalk.com its crazy.. Trust me its legit.

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 10:23 AM
2. Let's talk dollars. We know that Buchanon will cost us about $1.5MM for 2 years. That's fact.

--- Someone tell us what the rough cap hit would be for our 2nd and 3rd round pick. I'll be willing to bet a lot of money that it is significantly more than what Buchanon will cost.

--- Further to the point on dollars: the Salary Cap is about opportunity cost. The true analysis of this trade is to compare the 2nd and 3rd round picks with Buchanon and what we can get with the money we saved under the cap.

If someone will plug in the numbers, I think this should end the debate.

Phillip Buchanon: $700k 2005, $800k 2006

From last year's draft (add about 10% for this year):
#47--5 year deal, $1.725 mil signing bonus, $280k base 2004 (1st year of deal), $342 k base 2005. Total 1st year with 10% factored in--$688k. 2nd year--$756k
#78--can't find Bernard Berrian's deal from last year but based on Peek's figures something like 3 years, $680k signing bonus (adjusted for 2 years of increase), league minimum salaries, around $235k 1st year, $315k 2nd year. Total 1st year--$462k. Total 2nd year--$542.

Approximate total cap of #47 & #78--1st year, $1.15 mil--2nd year, $1.298 mil.

Basically a mil cheaper over the next two years, but after that will be more expensive than the final years of the draft picks would be--at least so long as he plays to his potential.

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:24 AM
Come on man, don't be made bc they always beat you up a little bit :rolleyes: jk I love watching my Canes play your noles.. and it great living in florida you get to see the game everytime they play.. Always a good game no dought

Hey now... I made the roadie down the Miami last year and swear I'll never do it again. Bring that back into the Doak this year and we'll see what happens!

Also, just out of curiosity... and sorry if I seem a bit out of touch with the news of late, but is Greenwood going to play ILB or OLB? And if it's ILB, will it be him and Wong inside and Babin and either Peek or pick 13 outside?

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:25 AM
Seems to me the OLine did a good enough job this past year opening holes through zone blocking for Davis, though admittingly, the only Texans games I actually got to watch on TV were the two Jags games and the Sunday nighter. At least statistically they were fine. DD had his second straight pretty good year, and we're talking about a running back? Situation almost reminds me of TJ Duckett to the Falcons or maybe better yet, Ron Dayne to the Giants.

Williamson would also be a nice fit at 13 to go across from Johnson and send Jabar "Let me stick the ball out 2 yards before the goalline" Gaffney to the slot. Seems like Williamson would step in immediately and have a big impact, getting Carr to 20 TDs for the first time in his career.


Williamson is sick, he would be a good fit to very fast rec in Texans uniforms that would be great.. by side the fact that they play my Bills in the home opener in Buffalo. Losman starting his first game facing DR & PB worries me but i think it will be a great game.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:27 AM
Hey now... I made the roadie down the Miami last year and swear I'll never do it again. Bring that back into the Doak this year and we'll see what happens!

Also, just out of curiosity... and sorry if I seem a bit out of touch with the news of late, but is Greenwood going to play ILB or OLB? And if it's ILB, will it be him and Wong inside and Babin and either Peek or pick 13 outside?

He played LOLB in Miami he might do that for the Texans as well to incress the pass rush. They can always move Babin to the DE pos like he played in College.

O don't you worry there will be plenty of games in the doak and for years to come. Most def one of the best riverly games to watch in college football.

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 10:27 AM
they will keep Glenn this season(and possibly trade him or get him to lower his cost down the road), they are stocking their prevent defense for Indy

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:28 AM
they will keep Glenn this season, they are stocking their prevent defense for Indy

they just might, but glenn will not start.. He will be pushed to nickel back

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:29 AM
It's gonna be hard to find a reasonable guy to be selected that won't step in right away in a key spot that we need.... except Cedric Benson. Short of being a hometown guy, what do we need him for with Davis running the ball? Oh, and one of my roommates, a Bucs fan, swears that Benson's gonna be a Buc if Smith and Rodgers are both off the board.

Spears adds depth to the front 3.

Williamson gives us a badly needed #2 WR with incredible speed and is a deep threat.

Pollack or Cody adds a massive pass rusher out of the OLB spot.

Baron would sure up the LT spot for many years.

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 10:30 AM
oh ye, I didnt read the other 20 pages on this topic(too long) but for those that didn't hear,the rumor was we are trading our 2nd pick and a 3rd round pick for buch

Yankee_In_TX
04-20-2005, 10:31 AM
someone you've never heard of?? I don't understand fans like you. You obviously don't pay attention to football: college or pro. It's safe to say you are not qualified to pass any judgement on any football decision that the team makes.

Someone I've never heard of. As in, I personally have never heard of him.

Did I say he's a nobody? No.

Do I wake up and go to ESPN.com and click through every article? No.

I follow the teams I care about, general NFL and NCAA news, and the guys on my fantasy team.

If you want to call me a bad football fan, then you're just ignorant.

***.

Oh, last time I checked, the Texans didn't pay you to make their decisions, either, so you must not be very qualified, either.

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Moving Babin to DE makes no sense in a 3-4. The guy broke the NCAA record for tackles for loss... He's too small to be a space eater on the line like Smith and Payne are, and like Spears would be. That'd be taking a bigtime playmaker out of a relatively natural position he excelled at last year. Drafting another undersized DE to play 3-4 end would give Capers all of the blitzing tools he ever wanted, especially for as much as we sent Dunta on the blitz at the end of the season. By adding Buchanon, I think we're just one piece closer to having the defense straight out of hell that Capers wants. I think we're still gonna be a year away from the Colts in the division, but competing for a Wild Card slot isn't out of the question by any means.

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 10:36 AM
He played LOLB in Miami he might do that for the Texans as well to incress the pass rush. They can always move Babin to the DE pos like he played in College.

O don't you worry there will be plenty of games in the doak and for years to come. Most def one of the best riverly games to watch in college football.

There are two knowns on the LB core right now--Babin will be at LOLB and Greenwood will be an ILB.

Increase the pass rush? Greenwood has 3 sacks in 4 years in the NFL. Babin had 4 in his rookie season.

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:37 AM
And Kailee Wong? June 1 casuality?

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 10:38 AM
prolly kept as a run stuffer, with all the smaller fast guys that will prolly be starting, we will need someone who wont let those running backs completely run through us

infantrycak
04-20-2005, 10:41 AM
And Kailee Wong? June 1 casuality?

Not saying anything about Wong getting cut but if Derrick Johnson were to drop to #13 then Wong would have to fight for the other ILB spot where Capers says he will play now. Similarly Peek looks to be the lead contender for ROLB, but that could change if Merriman or Ware were to drop.

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:47 AM
Gotcha. Know that the Texans made a lot of moves and will continue to make moves this offseason to get younger and quicker, especially on defense, and I didn't know if Wong was going to be one of those moves or not.

I think if Derrick Johnson slips to 13, we'll all be doing cartwheels... I know I will be.

I really haven't seen a whole heck of a lot of Peek play. I know he's fast is supposed to be a high energy guy to help spark the D. All of this true? Scouting reports only go so far... Asking the fans that go to the games will probably give me a better idea of what we're looking at.

Having watched probably 80% of the Dolphins games over the years, I know that Morlon Greenwood is extremely fast, but at times tries to make the big play and ends up looking foolish. Also has problems trying to go around blockers instead of through them to get to the ballcarrier on rushes up the middle. If Capers and crew can get him to take on more of the blockers, he'll be a great great player.

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 10:51 AM
yes peek is true to those scouting reports.

It will be truly interesting now to see the starting lineup in the opening game

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:53 AM
Dunta, Buchanon, Earl, Deloach, Smith, Peek, Babin Greenwood... Smells like we've got ourselves a great nucleus for many many years to come.

TheOgre
04-20-2005, 10:54 AM
I could see us trading with Detroit if one of the "top 10" we want fell. Otherwise I see us trading down.

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:54 AM
Oh yeah, Carr, Johnson, and Davis ain't a bad start on the offensive side of the ball either... :thumbup

wags
04-20-2005, 10:54 AM
Morlon Greenwood is extremely fast, but at times tries to make the big play and ends up looking foolish.

That seems to be the consensus knock on him: not making big plays. As Cak pointed out, he only has 3 sacks in 4 years. :um:

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 10:57 AM
There are two knowns on the LB core right now--Babin will be at LOLB and Greenwood will be an ILB.

Increase the pass rush? Greenwood has 3 sacks in 4 years in the NFL. Babin had 4 in his rookie season.

Greenwood can rush the passer, He just didn't have very many sacks because Jason Taylor was beating him there hahaha

arm03c
04-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Greenwood's problem with sacks is that he can't fight through two blockers. If he gets bumped by a lineman and then has to take on some form of a back, he's gonna get made lunch out of. The upside here is sending Babin, Peek, or whomever from the outside with Greenwood from the inside will likely let someone come free every now and again. Greenwood will get his plays this year, but he's gotta bulk a bit IMO.

Gonna be hard to trade down... Who wants to trade up? Someone who wants Jason Campbell? Lol. Unless the Vikings don't select Edwards or Williams with their first pick and want say, Williamson with their second, I'm not sure that trading down is going to be feasable or worth it in the long run for the price of trading down this year. We wouldn't get more than a late 2nd to move down about 10-15 picks. Now if we can get a 1st rounder NEXT year for this year's first rounder, THEN we might be in business.

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 11:01 AM
Greenwood's problem with sacks is that he can't fight through two blockers. If he gets bumped by a lineman and then has to take on some form of a back, he's gonna get made lunch out of. The upside here is sending Babin, Peek, or whomever from the outside with Greenwood from the inside will likely let someone come free every now and again. Greenwood will get his plays this year, but he's gotta bulk a bit IMO.

Gonna be hard to trade down... Who wants to trade up? Someone who wants Jason Campbell? Lol. Unless the Vikings don't select Edwards or Williams with their first pick and want say, Williamson with their second, I'm not sure that trading down is going to be feasable or worth it in the long run for the price of trading down this year. We wouldn't get more than a late 2nd to move down about 10-15 picks. Now if we can get a 1st rounder NEXT year for this year's first rounder, THEN we might be in business.

Crazy stuff happens on draft day, I can't wait for this weekend!!!

Hervoyel
04-20-2005, 11:01 AM
The trolls are really coming out for this one... :listening


Indeed. Normally I try very hard not to stereotype new posters as trolls but if you had only this thread to go by you couldn't help but do it. If people don't like the trade on it's own merits that's cool. We'll know soon enough whether Casserly did good or got punked. On average he wins more of these than he loses so no worries yet. Early on I like the look of this.

Mostly I think it's early to be worried about our offseason. I never get excited about the FA signings because alone they don't tell you all that much about what the team did to improve. Once the draft wraps up you have a clearer idea but really, until you get to the June 1st cuts it's hard to say.

I don't recognize half the people on this thread and coincidentally they're the half that aren't worth reading anyway.

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 11:02 AM
Greenwood's problem with sacks is that he can't fight through two blockers. If he gets bumped by a lineman and then has to take on some form of a back, he's gonna get made lunch out of. The upside here is sending Babin, Peek, or whomever from the outside with Greenwood from the inside will likely let someone come free every now and again. Greenwood will get his plays this year, but he's gotta bulk a bit IMO.

Gonna be hard to trade down... Who wants to trade up? Someone who wants Jason Campbell? Lol. Unless the Vikings don't select Edwards or Williams with their first pick and want say, Williamson with their second, I'm not sure that trading down is going to be feasable or worth it in the long run for the price of trading down this year. We wouldn't get more than a late 2nd to move down about 10-15 picks. Now if we can get a 1st rounder NEXT year for this year's first rounder, THEN we might be in business.

they've got to see what positions are in that class, or else it will make us or break us

TheOgre
04-20-2005, 11:05 AM
Draft day is the football fan's Christmas.

Blu
04-20-2005, 11:07 AM
Now we can trade up to take DJ or a WR and then add depth with the rest of our picks... :hmmm:
I agree! That's the whole reason Charle did it. I have a feeling we have a deal set up with the Redskins. They were after Buchanon for a few weeks now. Theres more to it, just wait and see. :thumbup

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 11:07 AM
Draft day is the football fan's Christmas.

ill second that one, its just a good time to spend with friends and family

Andre_Johnson80
04-20-2005, 11:09 AM
I agree! That's the whole reason Charle did it. I have a feeling we have a deal set up with the Redskins. They were after Buchanon for a few weeks now. Theres more to it, just wait and see. :thumbup

They aren't going to trade Buchanon to the Skins after they just traded for him.. Why would you want to trade away a game breaker and someone whos young and has talent that's cheap right now?

Xman
04-20-2005, 11:18 AM
I think most people's problem with this trade is the same problem they had with releasing Sharper and Foreman. No immediate return - we are giving up assets to fill position where we already had decent players. Just looking at it from a fan viewpoint of the team we want next year, these moves do not make sense. However, when you factor in the cap and the fact that Casserly is still looking a couple of years down the road (or has some grand scheme), it makes sense, I hope.

By the way, PB is a talented player and fun to watch. I have had him as backup defensive player in my fantasy leagues. He is good at getting interceptions and scoring. However, he has had a tendency to get burned because he gambles. Maybe Casserly thinks he can fix that and still get the benefits. If so, PB (and Dunta) will be in the Pro Bowl for years.

Also, if Casserly was willing to give up those picks, I think he does not like the quality of player he would have drafted. So, despite the fact that I am ok with the idea of trading down and picking up Clayton or Pollack around #20, I don't think he will look for extra 2nd/3rd round picks right after giving up his own (unless he thought PB was too good to pass on). My money is on us sticking at #13.

Xman
04-20-2005, 11:27 AM
OR - Casserly could deal Glenn and #13 to Dallas for #10.

Why it works: Dallas gets a stud CB for 2 years at a cheap price. Dallas could really use secondary help, but they need a veteran not another young player (the problem there is they have one young CB that is underperforming and one FA signee that is limited).
Also, Parcells will leave soon, Glenn gives him his best chance to win now.

As far as that goes, I would throw in Wong or a few others for picks if Dallas really wants to make a run this year.

jr0ck
04-20-2005, 11:28 AM
i think this solidifies us moving down as well, but i'm hoping for the thomas davis range :woot :thumbup

jacquescas
04-20-2005, 11:31 AM
i think if one of the studs doesn't fall we trade down.

Vinny
04-20-2005, 11:32 AM
Hey CT...saw you post in the thread. Must be tough being a Titan fan this year. You guys sure are nervous since your best signing this year was on an etch-a-sketch. Keep the faith man!

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 11:36 AM
i say we are going to trade our #1 and #3 to trade up to get benson, then they can all go out and have an early dinner that night

or else get benson and trade DD for another first or second rounder

arm03c
04-20-2005, 11:39 AM
DD goes for a 3rd at absolute best if we're trading him, but I don't know why we would

z0rpAn
04-20-2005, 11:42 AM
DD goes for a 3rd at absolute best if we're trading him, but I don't know why we would


Ye, I was looking for just tradeing up for benson and then going to dinner, DD is just another option if we got Benson

Vinny
04-20-2005, 11:43 AM
Try to stay on-topic guys. This is getting out of hand. If you want to talk about Dom or whatever get a new thread started.

pittbull
04-20-2005, 11:43 AM
Many called me crazy. Said I didn't know what I was talking about, thought the Raiders would not give up Buchanon.......Bam!!!!! Guess who's coming to Texas! I stated months ago that the Texans love AG like the rest of us, but they want youth and another physical corner on the opposite side of Robinson. This will enable the Texans to shut down on both sides of the field, go man-to-man more often and explore more safety and ILB blitz schemes. With Capers being a product of Pittsburgh, this is how the Steelers run their defenses. You have to have at least two physical corners to jam receivers and play man-to-man coverage to be successful AG is slipping a bit. Adding Greenwood adds a tremendous amount of speed in the middle, and another LB who can get back into different schemes. Peek will become a nightmare on the weak side, and Babin will be steady! This "D" will be ranked in the top 10 easily! Now look for the Texans to move down in the draft and pick up Clayton! Not as fast as the WR from South Carolina, but a better playmaker after the catch! :woot

TommyS
04-20-2005, 11:45 AM
actually, if we give oak the 3rd we got from the drew henson trade, really its only a second and a 6th, and for a young quality starting cornerback, thats a pretty darn good price. considering our success rate in the 2nd round isnt exactly top notch (threads elsewhere), thats a good deal in my books. :thumbup

O.G.
04-20-2005, 11:45 AM
Got this on ESPN Insider, looks like we are getting Williamson.....maybe

PLAYER INTERESTED THE SKINNY

Troy Williamson
WR, South Carolina Texans
Vikings Apr. 20 - After acquiring cornerback Phillip Buchanan for a second- and third-round pick, the Texans could feel better about taking a wide receiver at No. 13, and Williamson would be their dream pick. They can consider offensive linemen such as Alex Barron or Jamal Brown, and will look again at pass rushers such as Shawne Merriman and DeMarcus Ware, speculates John Clayton, but Williamson makes sense.
The Texans have added hope of getting Williamson if the Redskins don't take a receiver at No. 9. Williamson could go at No. 7 to Minnesota, but that could be Mike Williams' spot if he's available. The nice part of Williamson going to Houston is that owner Bob McNair is a South Carolina alum.

pittbull
04-20-2005, 11:55 AM
I hope Williamson is not the guy. He really only produced for one year, but has a world of potential. BUT DOESN'T EVERYONE IN THE DRAFT. Trading for Buchanon, at least you get a seasoned player, that knows the league. If you draft a 2nd round corner or any player, you have no idea what your going to get. Same with a WR in the draft. I believe either Clayton would be a more solid pick for the Texans at WR. Learning curve is shorter, stronger than Williamson, and most say better after the catch. As for many talking about Buchanon's attitude, never a problem at Miami, played with AJ the great so I'm sure they checked with him, and who wouldn't play up to their potential in Oakland........Not many do!!! Houston will work wonders for his career, and vice-versa him for our defense! We need attitude and we got it! :thumbup

Vinny
04-20-2005, 11:57 AM
You guys need to try to stay on topic. I'm locking this thread due to its size.

El Tejano
04-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Okay here is my take on all of this. We basically got a 4th rounder for a 6th round pick and this years 2nd. Now we have 4 very capable CBs and he possibly could provide some future talent should Glenn get hurt(remember Glenn has bad hammies). He provides a KR/PR with the "break away speed" everyone here says JJ Moses doesn't possess. If he sux, he is a nickel or even dime back at best for the next two years and we can always draft a corner later, we can then cut him and his money is not a big cap hit.

As far as the cons to this trade, well we don't get to move up for DJ and we don't get to pick in the second round. Who knows, we could still trade draft spots somehow and for all we know, Texans may not even really be sold on him to make that kind of move. At worst in the first round, we trade down and get the lineman we all think we need or stay put and see what falls in our lap. Anything can happen on draft day.