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Mari-OWNED!
05-23-2011, 01:44 PM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/23/drop-percentage/

Profootballfocus analyzes wide receivers and their drop percentage of catchable passes. It's an interesting article that is really telling of the players that have a bad case of the dropsies. Also Andre just barely made it in the Top 15 of this season, while Jacoby Jones on the other hand...

Kevin Walter doesn't get enough love on the boards, so this is his appreciation thread as well!

Brandon420tx
05-23-2011, 01:47 PM
I think Walter would make an amazing slot. At the moment though he's a reliable/solid #2. A speedy slot who can catch the ball could do wonder too (Fingers crossed for Breaston)

Blake
05-23-2011, 01:53 PM
And some people seem to want to get rid of him every year...

:rolleyes:

Ole Miss Texan
05-23-2011, 02:19 PM
And some people seem to want to get rid of him every year...

:rolleyes:

Yup. He doesn't put up the sexy stats that fans want, but he's a coach's (and QB's) dream. A solid reliable receiver... definitely has a place on this team.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 02:19 PM
And some people seem to want to get rid of him every year...

:rolleyes:

Not get rid of him, but replaced...yes.

The Texans could afford to upgrade the #2 WR position.

Texecutioner
05-23-2011, 02:24 PM
Kevin Walter has had one good season here as a #2 WR. Sure he blocks well and catches well, but his spot needs an upgrade, because when Daniels is hurt Walter doesn't pick up the slack enough. I'd rather he be at slot WR.

Hervoyel
05-23-2011, 02:49 PM
Maybe we could draft another TE or two and.....

PHAROAH
05-23-2011, 03:52 PM
Walters is a solid 3rd wr he isn't a true #2 wr and the texans need a strong free agent to come in and compliment andre & daniels.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 04:04 PM
Walters is a solid 3rd wr he isn't a true #2 wr and the texans need a strong free agent to come in and compliment andre & daniels.

:kubepalm:

WALTER!

People he's starting his 6th year with the team, c'mon!




While I think they need to keep a eye out for a improvement (mainly in playmaking..Walter does all the little stuff well), I don't think it's necessary to spend big bucks in FA. We have much bigger fish to fry. However in next year's draft it might be time to find a young talented buck to groom under Andre Johnson.

Rey
05-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Walter would make a damn good slot receiver.

gary
05-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Steve Smith thank you.

NBT
05-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Walter is what he is......a slow white guy who disappears at times, and is not very reliable in the red zone.

LikeMike
05-23-2011, 04:41 PM
Walter had a great start to last season if I remember correctly. He is a great guy and a very decent receiver. Might be better suited as a slot receiver, but he is doing alright. I think many people don`t give him enough credit - a guy that works hard, performs well and seems to be very humble. AND he doesn`t drop the ball.

Another deep threat would help the offense, but I also think that this team has much bigger needs than WR.

eriadoc
05-23-2011, 04:54 PM
Kevin Walter has had one good season here as a #2 WR. Sure he blocks well and catches well, but his spot needs an upgrade, because when Daniels is hurt Walter doesn't pick up the slack enough. I'd rather he be at slot WR.

How many teams have three receivers like that? A lot of teams have the WR/TE combination that puts up numbers, but not too many have three receiving threats. The Colts have Wayne and Clark, and then a few guys that aren't any better than Walter. The Saits have Colston and ..... well, a few that aren't any better than Walter. The Cowboys have Austin and Clark and a few that aren't any better than Walter. The Steelers have .... hell, I don't know. No one as good as AJ or even OD. The Chargers have Randy McMichael and Seyi Ajirotutu, so they're clearly better than us (at least judging by results). OK, facetious there. ;)

I don't think the spot needs upgrading at all. If we were able to go out and grab someone like Boldin (could have last year) or Steve Smith, then great. But need? Offense is pretty prolific as it is. This year (if we have one) should see an Owen Daniels that is closer to his Pro Bowl form. Last year was his first year back from the injury and just like everyone else, the production isn't there until two years after.

Norg
05-23-2011, 05:03 PM
We need TO. Lol

Rey
05-23-2011, 05:12 PM
How many teams have three receivers like that? A lot of teams have the WR/TE combination that puts up numbers, but not too many have three receiving threats. The Colts have Wayne and Clark, and then a few guys that aren't any better than Walter. The Saits have Colston and ..... well, a few that aren't any better than Walter. The Cowboys have Austin and Clark and a few that aren't any better than Walter. The Steelers have .... hell, I don't know. No one as good as AJ or even OD. The Chargers have Randy McMichael and Seyi Ajirotutu, so they're clearly better than us (at least judging by results). OK, facetious there. ;)

I don't think the spot needs upgrading at all. If we were able to go out and grab someone like Boldin (could have last year) or Steve Smith, then great. But need? Offense is pretty prolific as it is. This year (if we have one) should see an Owen Daniels that is closer to his Pro Bowl form. Last year was his first year back from the injury and just like everyone else, the production isn't there until two years after.

For a While the Colts also had Harrison. Not to mention their QB is better. They also have a bunch of other guys that are effective.

The Saints have a better QB IMO and I think their receiving corps is deeper. The Chargers had Vincent Jackson. Cardinals had Boldin and Fitz for a while....Cowboys had Roy Williams, Austin and then went out and drafted Dez...

Steelers have a better all around receiving corps IMO.


I don't think that the problem is really Walter. I think it's the WR depth behind AJ in general.

I don't understand this stand still attitude regarding the offense. You constantly see good offensive teams continue to add to their weaponry. Look around at the top teams in the league. Even the top defensive teams add to their defense. Also, when the Texans offense starts dictating games on a regular basis then I will call them prolific.

disaacks3
05-23-2011, 05:19 PM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/23/drop-percentage/

Profootballfocus analyzes wide receivers and their drop percentage of catchable passes. It's an interesting article that is really telling of the players that have a bad case of the dropsies. Also Andre just barely made it in the Top 15 of this season, while Jacoby Jones on the other hand...

Kevin Walter doesn't get enough love on the boards, so this is his appreciation thread as well! ....had just as many catches as Walter.

Interpretation : Jacoby gets better separation, but drops more balls.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 05:22 PM
My problem with the WR position isn't really K. Walter, because I can appreciate his consistency and professionalism.

My problem is with the WR group as a hole. This group is not NEARLY as strong as it has been made out to be in the past. We have Andre Johnson and a bunch of guys, with Walter being the best one and most consistent of that bunch.

I like Walter and think he could hold down the fort if we had more talent, because I think we run enough 3 WR sets where we could still get another talented receiver in there to make plays too.

Look Kevin Walter was tendered for a 7th round pick. He was never added to be the team's long term fixture at #2 WR. He was added to the team to add talent to the WR core. This team needs more talent as a whole. One injury could devastate that position group.

eriadoc
05-23-2011, 07:16 PM
For a While the Colts also had Harrison. Not to mention their QB is better. They also have a bunch of other guys that are effective.

The Saints have a better QB IMO and I think their receiving corps is deeper. The Chargers had Vincent Jackson. Cardinals had Boldin and Fitz for a while....Cowboys had Roy Williams, Austin and then went out and drafted Dez...

I was kidding about the Chargers, but I think you hit on a key point. The Chargers have a better QB. The Saints have a better QB. The Colts have a better QB. Most of the teams that have a deep WR corps conveniently have a better QB.

I don't think that the problem is really Walter. I think it's the WR depth behind AJ in general.

I agree with this. with the caveat that our QB is not All World. That's not a knock on Schaub at all, but it takes a pretty special QB to make an entire receiving corps look great.

I don't understand this stand still attitude regarding the offense. You constantly see good offensive teams continue to add to their weaponry. Look around at the top teams in the league. Even the top defensive teams add to their defense. Also, when the Texans offense starts dictating games on a regular basis then I will call them prolific.

Not sure where you're getting "stand still attitude" from my post. If the team can pick up a good WR in FA, I'm all for it. But for all the needs on this team, WR rates a little lower than others. We don't have the luxury of having a balanced team that can address whatever they like. And they drafted JJ to be the guy across from AJ. WRs take a little while to develop if they aren't a college phenom, and JJ is taking a little longer than he ought to.

And whether you like to call them prolific or not, that's exactly what they are. Look up the word. If they start dictating games, then we can start using words like "good" or "dominant" or "winners". And if they do that, they may or may not be prolific.

Prolific != good.

Rey
05-23-2011, 10:01 PM
Not sure where you're getting "stand still attitude" from my post. If the team can pick up a good WR in FA, I'm all for it. But for all the needs on this team, WR rates a little lower than others. We don't have the luxury of having a balanced team that can address whatever they like. And they drafted JJ to be the guy across from AJ. WRs take a little while to develop if they aren't a college phenom, and JJ is taking a little longer than he ought to.

Stand still attitude as in "the offense is fine, if we can address it fine, if not ok". Well They aren't fine IMO. For the last few years we have been putting up big numbers when we fall behind. We have been throwing the ball all around the field trying to play catch up due to slow starts offensively and defensively. Then in clutch moments, we end up falling apart for one reason or another.

Maybe the actual players aren't the root of the problem, but I think getting more talent and depth would help the offense with some of their problems.

And whether you like to call them prolific or not, that's exactly what they are. Look up the word. If they start dictating games, then we can start using words like "good" or "dominant" or "winners". And if they do that, they may or may not be prolific.

Prolific != good.

I know what prolific means...highly productive...

I also know that the Texans, even though they are top ten, aren't that far away from other teams below them production wise. I believe that the high production is due to other various factors ( that I'm really trying not to get into in this thread. Shouldn't have even mentioned that.

But I honestly think that if we had one more legitimate receiving threat that could push Walter and Jacoby for passes being thrown their way the offense would be a whole lot better. I think we have the potential to be a perennial top 5 offense...but there is something missing over there...

gary
05-23-2011, 10:13 PM
I actually do not see a glaring need to upgrade at the receiver position when you run the football as much as the Texans be. If a top tier receiver is out there though I would at least consider it. I would work like this defense, special teams, O line and so on and so fourth and also in the exact order.

steelbtexan
05-23-2011, 10:22 PM
Walter is what he is .

A very good WR, not one you win a SB with as your # 2 WR.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 10:23 PM
I actually do not see a glaring need to upgrade at the receiver position when you run the football as much as the Texans be. If a top tier receiver is out there though I would at least consider it. I would work like this defense, special teams, O line and so on and so fourth and also in the exact order.

Despite how successful the Texans were on the ground last season, they were still 19th in rushing attempts and 10th in passing attempts on the season. It's a crazy stat if you think about it (since they did have the league's leading rusher), which makes Foster's performance that more impressive.

I'm pretty sure the Texans crappy defense played a part in that, but I think a Gary Kubiak led offense is always going to be near the top of the league in pass attempts. I don't think this team needs another top tier WR, but I sure would settle for someone with game breaking long speed and consistent hands to help take the top off the defense.

gary
05-23-2011, 10:29 PM
Despite how successful the Texans were on the ground last season, they were still 19th in rushing attempts and 10th in passing attempts on the season. It's a crazy stat if you think about it (since they did have the league's leading rusher), which makes Foster's performance that more impressive.

I'm pretty sure the Texans crappy defense played a part in that, but I think a Gary Kubiak led offense is always going to be near the top of the league in pass attempts. I don't think this team needs another top tier WR, but I sure would settle for someone with game breaking long speed and consistent hands to help take the top off the defense.
They still should run the football some more and maybe carry another RB if they have to but three should keep them all fresh.

steelbtexan
05-23-2011, 10:31 PM
Despite how successful the Texans were on the ground last season, they were still 19th in rushing attempts and 10th in passing attempts on the season. It's a crazy stat if you think about it (since they did have the league's leading rusher), which makes Foster's performance that more impressive.

I'm pretty sure the Texans crappy defense played a part in that, but I think a Gary Kubiak led offense is always going to be near the top of the league in pass attempts. I don't think this team needs another top tier WR, but I sure would settle for someone with game breaking long speed and consistent hands to help take the top off the defense.

^^^^
This

Imagine this team without AJ. Then tell me how good the WR corps looks.

They need a WR with speed if JJ refuses to grow up and realize that the party is over.

gary
05-23-2011, 10:40 PM
^^^^
This

Imagine this team without AJ. Then tell me how good the WR corps looks.

They need a WR with speed if JJ refuses to grow up and realize that the party is over.I never said that I would not sign a better receiver out there but it probably would just be my third or fourth choice though that's all.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 10:42 PM
They still should run the football some more and maybe carry another RB if they have to but three should keep them all fresh.

You're preaching to the choir Gary. There were a lot of posters who mentioned that last season. (Some people feel Derrick Ward wasn't used enough), but when the defense got as bad as it did, it didn't really matter any more.

Hopefully with a improved defense and a healthy Ben Tate (I hope he recovers and remains healthy) we can become more of a ball control offense, but even in those type of offenses it's good to have that guy who can hit a home run over the top.

I think it would be great if we had another guy who could do that besides Andre. I don't think we have to make a huge investment to get that guy either. Other teams do it all the time with mid round draft picks. I would look at FA for a veteran WR at a reasonable price to add talent and guard against injury next season, then I'd look for someone to develop in the draft. I'm tired of waiting for Jacoby Jones to mature.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 10:43 PM
LOL, Who the hell knows. Maybe Dorin Dickerson will go "Arian Foster" on us and all of this will be a moot point.

gary
05-23-2011, 10:56 PM
LOL, Who the hell knows. Maybe Dorin Dickerson will go "Arian Foster" on us and all of this will be a moot point.I'll put it to you this way. Knowing there is Foster and AJ to match two or three other very good RB's. Wouldn't you rather make your defense your number one priority?

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 11:03 PM
I'll put it to you this way. Knowing there is Foster and AJ to match two or three other very good RB's. Wouldn't you rather make your defense your number one priority?

Yeah, which is why I don't think we need to sign a big name free agent or invest a high draft pick there....but the position still needs some addressing.

gary
05-23-2011, 11:12 PM
Yeah, which is why I don't think we need to sign a big name free agent or invest a high draft pick there....but the position still needs some addressing.LOL, I think we are basically posting the same thing here and we pretty much on the same page here.

eriadoc
05-24-2011, 11:12 AM
Stand still attitude as in "the offense is fine, if we can address it fine, if not ok". Well They aren't fine IMO. For the last few years we have been putting up big numbers when we fall behind. We have been throwing the ball all around the field trying to play catch up due to slow starts offensively and defensively. Then in clutch moments, we end up falling apart for one reason or another.

Not true. That was the case this past year, but in '09, they often had big leads and fell apart at the end. Most people said it was because they didn't have a running game. Well, in '10 they had a running game and had horrific first halves. It's what's so frustrating about this team - something is missing over there. I just don't happen to believe it's the players (on offense). There have been teams that have gotten to or won the SB with #2 WRs on par or less talented than Kevin Walter. So while I agree with you that things could be upgraded on offense, it is and ought to be a ways down the priority list.

I agree with you about overall depth, but that is generally something that has to be developed within the organization. JJ should have developed into a more dependable WR by now. DA should have developed into the slot guy by now, but they hardly used him. KW was hardly used the first year he was here. They keep drafting TEs, but they hardly use them. We all know James Casey can be an effective piece of the offense, but they have really only used him for blocking. They drafted Garrett Graham because he supposedly has the same skill set as OD. But when have they used him? They're hoping to develop Dorin Dickerson into a WR, but when have they given him even a few snaps here and there? There were losses last year where he could have seen the field for a few plays. There were a couple games at the end of the year when they should have been finding out what they had in guys like Dickerson, Slaton, Graham, that blocking TE (forgot his name), etc.

Anyway, this has sort of strayed from the main topic a bit, but I think it ties in. Kevin Walter is a valuable player on this offense, but he has to be used for something besides blocking (at which he excels). When they throw it to him, he catches it. He converts 3rd downs. No, he's never going to draw anyone away from AJ, but there might be a half dozen WRs in the NFL that would draw coverage away from AJ. Schaub has to make the defense pay for doubling AJ, and last year he didn't seem to start taking those chances until the second half of games.

gtexan02
05-24-2011, 11:18 AM
Im guessing part of this is that we only seem to throw to him when he's wide open. I'd be curious to see WRs who catch balls that are deemed "uncatchable"

I bet AJ would be top

Ole Miss Texan
05-24-2011, 11:49 AM
Im guessing part of this is that we only seem to throw to him when he's wide open. I'd be curious to see WRs who catch balls that are deemed "uncatchable"

I bet AJ would be top

I know he's had a ton (too many to name) but this will always be one of my favorites. The man just WILLS himself to make plays. 4th and 10 from our 36 yard line, less than a minute left with us down 28-23 against the Dolphins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Ek-vDVMu0

This one's almost "uncatchable" too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T79AnkDuYA&feature=related

TimeKiller
05-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Walter is what he is......a slow white guy who disappears at times, and is not very reliable in the red zone.

What does him being white have to do with anything? I assume since every other word in your post is negative being white is a negative. Hmmm....

Not reliable in the red zone? As what, the 5th at best option? He is what he is but damn if you're not gonna expect something more. Yeah, it would be nice if JJ or DD or any other WR (preferably black, I suppose...and with double letter names) would develop their games like they've developed athletic abillity, move Walter inside where his hands, size and blocking ability would shine buuuuuuuttt......

Guess we'll just have to stick with the one guy who lives up to his potential.

eriadoc
05-24-2011, 12:39 PM
Yeah, it would be nice if JJ or DD or any other WR (preferably black, I suppose...and with double letter names) would develop their games like they've developed athletic abillity, move Walter inside where his hands, size and blocking ability would shine buuuuuuuttt......

Guess we'll just have to stick with the one guy who lives up to his potential.

Rep. Athleticism does not equal game. If these superior athletes can't be bothered to improve their route running/work ethic/knowledge of the offense/blocking/whatever, then they aren't as good as people seem to think they are.

TheMatrix31
05-24-2011, 06:47 PM
Love Walter, definitely underappreciated.

Wish we could get Plastic-Ho when he gets out of jail. Management won't go for it though.

thunderkyss
05-24-2011, 06:50 PM
Also Andre just barely made it in the Top 15 of this season, while Jacoby Jones on the other hand...


I remember there was a time when most people here had issues with Andre's dropsies....

Look at him now.

Remember, we knew Jacoby was going to develop slower than other prospects.

Carr Bombed
05-24-2011, 07:30 PM
I remember there was a time when most people here had issues with Andre's dropsies....

Look at him now.

Remember, we knew Jacoby was going to develop slower than other prospects.

Andre never had hands or catching issues like Jacoby. The only time I really remember Andre having real problems catching the ball was the start of a season about 4 or 5 years ago. He started the year horrible and had mental lapses looking the ball in (I think two or three would've went for scores). He said he had a talk with himself and asked himself if he really wanted to be a great player, because great players don't drop those kind of passes. Then the guy went on to become only the second player in league history to lead the NFL in catches and yards in consecutive years. So I don't see much of a comparison to Jacoby.


How much more should we really expect Jacoby to develop? His hands aren't going to get any bigger and he's entering his 5th season in the league. We didn't draft him in the 3rd round to sign him up for a 5 year plan, regardless of how small his school was.

Rey
05-24-2011, 09:10 PM
Not true. That was the case this past year, but in '09, they often had big leads and fell apart at the end.

I don't ever recall a year other than '09 that the Texans consistently (or as you put it "often") came out and put up points early in the game and got big leads.

And I know you have to play the schedule that you have, but that '09 schedule was pretty weak.


Any who, I think I agree with the rest of your post. I don't think we are too far off in how we see the offense.

TheMatrix31
05-25-2011, 08:28 AM
I'm still haunted by Andre's drop-kick-INT-thing in the San Diego game this past season :-/

TimeKiller
05-25-2011, 09:07 AM
How much more should we really expect Jacoby to develop? His hands aren't going to get any bigger and he's entering his 5th season in the league. We didn't draft him in the 3rd round to sign him up for a 5 year plan, regardless of how small his school was.

Hand size is pretty much a non factor when your hand/eye coordination is that of a 4 year old who can barely manage a clap. In fact hand size is below pretty much every aspect of catching a ball. Hand/eye coordination, hand strength and the ability to put yourself in the best position to catch the ball properly all play way more of a role in a catch than hand size.

Jacoby #1 doesn't have the hand/eye coordination to make it as a #2, judging by his fumblitis he doesn't have the hand strength to be consistent and as far as putting yourself in position to make a catch, Jacoby position himself to catch it with his chest (which only works on long routes/bomb passes where you can legitimately get underneath the ball).

steelbtexan
05-25-2011, 09:43 AM
Yeah, which is why I don't think we need to sign a big name free agent or invest a high draft pick there....but the position still needs some addressing.

Agreed

But look at the Colts when they added Wayne to Harrison and James. It made Manning and their offense lethal. They were able to win a SB with an avg defense.

With that said in next yrs draft I hope they take the BPA. If thats a LB/CB/S fine. The 2012 strength is LB's/CB's. But if Jeffery or Blackmon are there when the Texans pick they should take them. Those guys are unreal game changers.

Texecutioner
05-25-2011, 10:11 AM
Walter is what he is......a slow white guy who disappears at times, and is not very reliable in the red zone.

Not really sure why you're injecting race in this as if white guys can't play the WR position. They may not be the majority by any means, but in this decade alone there have been several that have had a lot of success.

Kevin Curtis, Wes Welker, Kevin Walter two years ago, Jordan Shipley (Great rookie season), Rick Proehl, Brandon Stokely.

Those were just guys that have done stuff in this decade alone. I don't think you can discount a guy at WR just because he is white.

And for heaven's sake WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL TALKING ABOUT JACOBY JONES?? What does this guy need to stink it up here for 8 years for people to realize that he's Jerome Mathis 2.0?? I said that years ago while people were still hyping this guy. He's never going to be a consistent impact player, so lets pull the cord once and for all and stop acting like he'll ever be a good #2 WR. It aint gonna happen.

eriadoc
05-25-2011, 10:22 AM
And for heaven's sake WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL TALKING ABOUT JACOBY JONES?? What does this guy need to stink it up here for 8 years for people to realize that he's Jerome Mathis 2.0??

He's no Jerome Mathis. Mathis was a complete knucklehead, but he was a game changer (and All Pro) in at least one aspect of the game. JJ is not.

Texecutioner
05-25-2011, 10:26 AM
He's no Jerome Mathis. Mathis was a complete knucklehead, but he was a game changer (and All Pro) in at least one aspect of the game. JJ is not.

Sure he isn't the knucklehead that Mathis was, but I wasn't referring to that. His skill set is exactly the same though. He's a KR with horrible hands that we keep trying to make into some stud WR just like we did with Mathis, only Mathis had way better hands when it came to catching punts and kicks. The only difference is that the previous coaching staff gave up on Mathis a lot faster mainly due to off the field issues. I disagree that Jacoby Jones isn't just as much of a game changer as Mathis was though. When Jacoby makes a play, it's usually a big one just like it was for Mathis. Just like Mathis though, neither one was ever consistent or reliable.

CretorFrigg
05-26-2011, 02:55 PM
And for heaven's sake WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL TALKING ABOUT JACOBY JONES?? What does this guy need to stink it up here for 8 years for people to realize that he's Jerome Mathis 2.0?? I said that years ago while people were still hyping this guy. He's never going to be a consistent impact player, so lets pull the cord once and for all and stop acting like he'll ever be a good #2 WR. It aint gonna happen.

Anybody still remember Dorin Dickerson?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf8pkmagg5c

4.40 fourty-yard dash; 43.5" vertical; 6'2", 230 lbs.

Allstar
05-26-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm still haunted by Andre's drop-kick-INT-thing in the San Diego game this past season :-/

Sad thing is, if Andre didn't have such good hands, he wouldn't have snatched that ball then kneed it out. If he would have just dropped it, we would have still had the ball.