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awtysst
05-07-2011, 09:38 PM
I have seen countless posters opining that Mario will need to lose "significant weight" in order to be able to perform as a 3-4OLB. Various people have thrown out target weights, but many seem to have come to 250 being the size Mario needs to be. I think this is based on the perpetuated belief that the 3-4 OLB usually is in the 240-250lb range.

I thought it would be interesting to look at the numbers. Is is true that most of the top 3-4 OLBs are in fact in the 240-250lb range? Many people seem to believe this theory. The best way to test the theory is to go to the numbers.

Here were the top 15 3-4 OLBs in terms of sacks last year:

1. Demarcus Ware, Dallas: 6'4 260lbs
2. Tambi Hali, Kansas City : 6'3 270lbs
3. Cameron Wake, Miami : 6'3 250 lbs
4. Clay Matthews III, Green Bay, 6'3 255lbs
5. Terrell Suggs, Baltimore, 6'3 260 lbs
6. Shaun Phillips, San Diego, 6'3 250 lbs
7. James Harirson, Pittsburgh, 6'0 243 lbs
8. LeMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh, 6'2 265 lbs
9. Brian Orakpo, Washington 6'4 255 lbs
10. James Farrior, Pittsburgh 6'4 243
11. Bryan Thomas, NYJ 6'4 260lbs
12. Calvin Pace, NYJ, 6'4 265
13. Jason Taylor NYJ, 6'6 250
14. Mario Hagan, Denver 6'3 267
15. Tully Banta-Cain, New England 6'2 250lbs.

Conclusions
1) Of the top 15 3-4 OLB last year 8 weighed more than 250 lbs while 7 weighed less than 250. Clearly the notion that the 3-4 OLB is usually in the 240-250 lbs range is discredited. It would be morwe accruate to say the 3-4 OLB is in the 240-265lb range.

2. Another result which is not as clearcut is the that taller players are heavier. While generally the trend holds, the tallest in the group Jason Tayler is not the heaviest. Tambi Hali, is the heaviest at 270 and only 6'3.

3. So what should Mario's ideal weight be? There is no nice neat formula. Remember Mario is taller, leaner, and more msucular than most of the other OLBs on this list. I think its pretty clear he will not be able to play OLB at 290lbs. I would say if he was in the 270s he will probably be fine. Given his size he should be able to carry the weight well.

4. I see Mario as playing the elephant in Wade's 1 gap 3-4. He will be moved around bit. Other 3-4 elephants include Charles Haley, Terrell Suggs, Julian Peterson, and Jason Taylor.

MojoX
05-07-2011, 09:55 PM
Thanks, appreciate the research.

Williams is an athlete. If he has the athleticism and skill to do the job, I don't care about him not being some particular height, weight or BMI. He is a rare species of athlete.

badboy
05-07-2011, 10:14 PM
Mario has been known as a strong, very fast DE. Move him back a few steps and I just don't see how he loses anything. What I see is SMith, NT, Watt collapsing or at least tying up four blockers. An RB trying to block a charging Rhino in Maro (HAHAHAHA) and still the QB will have to watch for other LBs or maybe just maybe a blitzing corner or FS?

gtexan02
05-07-2011, 10:15 PM
The average of the weights you posted is 256. I dont think its fair to say clearly the notion that the 3-4 OLB is usually in the 250 range is discredited.. 250 seems to be about right.

I also agree with MojoX. If he can move around effectively (his 40 time, cone, and shuttle drills seem to indicate he'll do just fine) I think he'll be awesome wherever he is on the field.


It will certainly be interesting to see where he fits in

awtysst
05-07-2011, 10:22 PM
Thanks, appreciate the research.

Williams is an athlete. If he has the athleticism and skill to do the job, I don't care about him not being some particular height, weight or BMI. He is a rare species of athlete.

My pleasure. I agree. Weight is one component.

awtysst
05-07-2011, 10:22 PM
Mario has been known as a strong, very fast DE. Move him back a few steps and I just don't see how he loses anything. What I see is SMith, NT, Watt collapsing or at least tying up four blockers. An RB trying to block a charging Rhino in Maro (HAHAHAHA) and still the QB will have to watch for other LBs or maybe just maybe a blitzing corner or FS?

Agreed. Mario is a special body type: fast, strong, and agile.

awtysst
05-07-2011, 10:26 PM
The average of the weights you posted is 256. I dont think its fair to say clearly the notion that the 3-4 OLB is usually in the 250 range is discredited.. 250 seems to be about right.

I also agree with MojoX. I could care less what his weight or height is if he can move around effectively. His 40 time, cone, and shuttle drills seem to indicate he'll do just fine

Well I was saying the 240-250lb range belief is discredited. Also I was just trying to show that 8 of the top 15 OLB were over 250 and 7 were under.

I agree with you: Height/weight may be irrelevant, his initial burst, cone, and shuttle times are important. However, for him, what will be most important is correcting his footwork. Remember Phillips saying he took a false step, he will need to correct that. Height/weight have no bearing on that issue :wadepalm:

steelbtexan
05-07-2011, 10:41 PM
I dont ? MW's ability to play in any defense.

I ? his desire to put in the work it will take to become an impact player on an every down basis. regardless of whatever scheme Wade puts him in.

This comes down to MW"s willingness to do the offseason traing it will take to improve his explosiveness off the edge and stay healthy. I just dont see the desire is there. Of course this is a contract yr and MW probably will do the work necessary to have a great yr. Then he will go back to being the same old MW.

BoB should treat MW like the Tacks did Haynesworth and make him play on a yr to yr basis. So that the Texans get the best out of MW. It's on MW to prove the skeptics like me wrong. Stay healthy all yr and produce at an elite level or move on.

It's crap or get off the pot time for MW. I hope this works out well for BoB. But I wouldn't count on it. Especially when you look at MW's track record in college and the pros.

FirstTexansFan
05-07-2011, 10:44 PM
I don't believe weight is the factor, but speed, and agility. I'd prefer that comparison, though now sure how you chart agility.

CloakNNNdagger
05-07-2011, 10:51 PM
I think that without an ultra strong or big and wide NT (neither which type we presently have) to create (along with the other OLBs) holes, Mario's potential success independent of his weight will be hindered, since he doesn't tend to plow holes himself.

b0ng
05-08-2011, 12:08 AM
BoB should treat MW like the Tacks did Haynesworth and make him play on a yr to yr basis. So that the Texans get the best out of MW. It's on MW to prove the skeptics like me wrong. Stay healthy all yr and produce at an elite level or move on.


Yeah we should definitely model our organization after the Titans, because when it comes to getting rid of players, Bud Adams is certainly on point as to when is a good time to show them the door.

I'll believe all this crap about Mario not putting in the work when there are actual examples of other players on the Texans out-working him. The only player on defense who puts in more work/productivity than M-dub is Ryans and he's a ****ing LB.

Rey
05-08-2011, 12:25 AM
I don't understand people being so sure about Mario making the transition. No one really knows how it will play out over the course of a season.

Lots of factors at play. Way more than just weight.

DocBar
05-08-2011, 02:01 AM
At 6'6", 290lbs., MW has a lot more mass than those other guys. That mass will not want to change direction easily, putting a lot of stress on his knees and ankles.
6'6", 290lbs is too big. I hope Phillips is pulling a late April Fools prank or something. :wadepalm:

Maddict5
05-08-2011, 04:27 AM
I dont ? MW's ability to play in any defense.

I ? his desire to put in the work it will take to become an impact player on an every down basis. regardless of whatever scheme Wade puts him in.

This comes down to MW"s willingness to do the offseason traing it will take to improve his explosiveness off the edge and stay healthy. I just dont see the desire is there. Of course this is a contract yr and MW probably will do the work necessary to have a great yr. Then he will go back to being the same old MW.

BoB should treat MW like the Tacks did Haynesworth and make him play on a yr to yr basis. So that the Texans get the best out of MW. It's on MW to prove the skeptics like me wrong. Stay healthy all yr and produce at an elite level or move on.

It's crap or get off the pot time for MW. I hope this works out well for BoB. But I wouldn't count on it. Especially when you look at MW's track record in college and the pros.

pure bullshit. comparing mario to fat albert shows pure cluelessness.

mario is one of the most consistent players in the league. by my quick research, since 2007 only ware has more sacks & none of the other top passrushers play the run as well as mario. considering the generally shitty D's mario has been on compared to ware & other top guys (which allows them get...gasp....coverage sacks), id say thats quite an achievement

the only reason mario doesnt play as well in some games as in others is for one singular reason- injury. the last 2 yrs his production & play tailed off at the end of both yrs because of this. it has nothing to do with his motor

kiwitexansfan
05-08-2011, 09:17 AM
pure bullshit. comparing mario to fat albert shows pure cluelessness.

mario is one of the most consistent players in the league. by my quick research, since 2007 only ware has more sacks & none of the other top passrushers play the run as well as mario. considering the generally shitty D's mario has been on compared to ware & other top guys (which allows them get...gasp....coverage sacks), id say thats quite an achievement

the only reason mario doesnt play as well in some games as in others is for one singular reason- injury. the last 2 yrs his production & play tailed off at the end of both yrs because of this. it has nothing to do with his motor

Good Points.

As to this 'coverage sack' phenomenon, can you talk more about this fabled creature?

IDEXAN
05-08-2011, 09:52 AM
Even on a big frame that towers 6'6" to 6'7", 290 lbs is probably too big, but
I'm confidant Mario can get to a more desirable weight, which would probably be somewhere under 280 lbs.

LikeMike
05-08-2011, 10:15 AM
Mario is a player - 260, 270 or 280 - Mario will be where he needs to be to be dominant. I truely believe he can be a rush linebacker. Training camp (I still have hope) and preseason will show if he can - if not, well then back to DE.

I think, in the end Wade will move him around. Outside on some plays, at DE on others. We have several players that can play multiple positions and Wade should take advantage of that.

The one thing that I really like about Mario in the 3-4: no matter where he plays, he will have a serious pass rushing thread besides him (whether it is an OLB like Reed or Barwin or a DE like Watt or Smith) - that alone will be a nightmare for opposing teams.

dinkatoid
05-08-2011, 02:50 PM
I dont ? MW's ability to play in any defense.

I ? his desire to put in the work it will take to become an impact player on an every down basis. regardless of whatever scheme Wade puts him in.


Mario has gone on record saying he really likes this move and is excited about it. I think this might help - knowing that he wants to try this might make him work harder at it.

6'6", 290lbs is too big. I hope Phillips is pulling a late April Fools prank or something.

I believe I read somewhere that Wade said Mario isn't naturally 290, he had bulked up a bit too big. He said that when he got a chance to meet with him, he was already down near 282. I don't think it is crazy to believe we could see Mario near 275 or maybe even 270. I think Mario is quick enough that he could be effective at this weight.

What I worry more about than anything is that this transition will take some time. Wade will need to work with his footwork and timing to make him successful, and depending on what happens with the lockout, it could be hard to find enough time to get him anywhere near where he should be for the start of the season.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 02:51 PM
Even on a big frame that towers 6'6" to 6'7", 290 lbs is probably too big, but
I'm confidant Mario can get to a more desirable weight, which would probably be somewhere under 280 lbs.

JMO........

Mario is big, strong, and fast. That is what allows him to do his job.

If you make him lose weight.... he will lose strength. He has nothing to lose but muscle, kid doesn't have an ounce of fat on him.

Then Mario will be big & fast....

If he was a mean sunuvagun, like Sapp... maybe that would be good enough. At DE/OLB, I don't think so.

Mario is going to have to play at 290. Which isn't a big deal if he is going to play like Ware does in Dallas. Going after the QB 95% of the time. If we were talking about one of those 3-4s where you don't know where the rush is coming from (ala NYJ) then yeah, we got a problem. If you're expecting Mario to do some fancy foot-work to trip up OTs like CMIII, then yeah, ain't gonna happen.

But giving him some space to work with.... lining another big guy right in front of that OT.... can't do anything but help him in the pass rush area.

But I personally think it's a waste to take him off the DL.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 02:52 PM
I believe I read somewhere that Wade said Mario isn't naturally 290, he had bulked up a bit too big. He said that when he got a chance to meet with him, he was already down near 282. I don't think it is crazy to believe we could see Mario near 275 or maybe even 270. I think Mario is quick enough that he could be effective at this weight.



At 6'6, 270lbs he'll look like a pretzel.

b0ng
05-08-2011, 03:14 PM
At 6'6, 270lbs he'll look like a pretzel.

No he won't.

CretorFrigg
05-08-2011, 04:09 PM
At 6'6, 270lbs he'll look like a pretzel.

As many have mentioned here, Mario usually plays at around 282 lbs so asking him to play at 275 lbs isn't outlandish. It'd be ideal. He'd be around the weight of most bigger OLBs and wouldn't have to cut too much weight.

steelbtexan
05-08-2011, 04:20 PM
pure bullshit. comparing mario to fat albert shows pure cluelessness.

mario is one of the most consistent players in the league. by my quick research, since 2007 only ware has more sacks & none of the other top passrushers play the run as well as mario. considering the generally shitty D's mario has been on compared to ware & other top guys (which allows them get...gasp....coverage sacks), id say thats quite an achievement

the only reason mario doesnt play as well in some games as in others is for one singular reason- injury. the last 2 yrs his production & play tailed off at the end of both yrs because of this. it has nothing to do with his motor

I didn't compare MW to fat Albert as players/people. Maybe you need to lighten up a little. I was just saying if BoB wants to get the most out of MW. He needs to have him play yr to yr for a contract.

I know you're a MW fan/apoligist. But the reason yr to yr is the way to go with MW is he will get in football shape during the offseason instead of partying. This is part of MW's problem with injuries. MW needs to grow up and become a team leader. I hope it happens. I have my doubts. MW has never been a 100% effort guy on every play dating back to his college days.

MW is so talented he can be a top 10 DE without putting forth alot of effort. To be an elite DE/OLB he needs to put in the offseason work. He's never done this before. But it's a contract yr so I expect to see the best of MW.

Maddict5
05-08-2011, 06:33 PM
I didn't compare MW to fat Albert as players/people. Maybe you need to lighten up a little. I was just saying if BoB wants to get the most out of MW. He needs to have him play yr to yr for a contract.

I know you're a MW fan/apoligist. But the reason yr to yr is the way to go with MW is he will get in football shape during the offseason instead of partying. This is part of MW's problem with injuries. MW needs to grow up and become a team leader. I hope it happens. I have my doubts. MW has never been a 100% effort guy on every play dating back to his college days.

MW is so talented he can be a top 10 DE without putting forth alot of effort. To be an elite DE/OLB he needs to put in the offseason work. He's never done this before. But it's a contract yr so I expect to see the best of MW.

why does mario need to play on yr to yr contracts when hes had a huge contract (prob in the top 10-20 in football) since being a rookie & has consistently been 1 of the best de's in that period. fat albert did very little his first few yrs until it came contract time. the situations are nothing alike

apologist? ya whatever. i look at his play & production instead of a stupid subjective bs theory that his motor & attitude arent good enough. like you'd know right? id call it being a realist myself.

you follow mario around the offseason & know what he does? plenty of his teammates have called mario a gym rat but im sure you think him being a beast in the weight room is just luck & genes. no effort required though right.

damn cush seems to be a little injury prone too the last few yrs. dude should get himself into football shape in the offseason instead of partying :rolleyes:

k im done with this crap. time to go watch mario's youtube highlights for hrs on end :fingergun:

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 08:19 PM
As many have mentioned here, Mario usually plays at around 282 lbs so asking him to play at 275 lbs isn't outlandish. It'd be ideal. He'd be around the weight of most bigger OLBs and wouldn't have to cut too much weight.

You are inferring something that nobody said. Wade Phillips said he saw Mario & believes him to be at 282lbs.... we don't know that Mario weighed in. For all we know Wade is guessing that he looks like 280lbs.

Nobody has ever stated (no one credible anyway) that Mario played at 280lbs. More likely he was bumping 300lbs.

IDEXAN
05-10-2011, 09:36 AM
I think before we consign Wade Phillips to coaching hell for even thinking of switching Mario Williams from defensive end to outside linebacker in his new Houston 3-4 defense, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Williams had been very good, but not all-world, in his first five seasons as a 4-3 end, averaging 9.6 sacks a year. Phillips thinks Williams, playing the same spot DeMarcus Ware played in Dallas, can have the kind of impact Ware had.

Time will tell if he's right, because Ware's a 250-pound edge-rusher, and Williams, who weighs 282 right now and will try to slim down to 265-ish for his new role, hasn't played with his hand off the ground much in the NFL. But to think this is a revolutionary move ... as Jimmy Johnson would say, puh-leeze. And Williams wasn't exactly Bruce Smith as a defensive end. Sacks in the past five years, by the way: Ware 72, Williams 48.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/05/08/mmqb/index.html#ixzz1LxL7vcji
###################################
FWIW that's SIs highly respected Peter King on the talk about Marios conversion to OLB. But he's claiming here that Mario will be shooting for
the 265 lb range for his new position. That's quite a difference in body mass?

HOU-TEX
05-10-2011, 09:56 AM
I think there are some reading way too much into this. Mario's position isn't changing that much. Per Wade, Mario will be playing the WILL LB in this 5-2. He'll still be primarily on the right side with either a hand down or standing. I don't think they'll be asking him to lose that much weight, if any at all. Wade also stated he'll be in coverage less than 5% of the time which is basically what he's done in the past with that stupid drop zone crap.

I think a majority of the changes will involve the D-Ryans, Cushing and Barwin/Reed positions. Mario's going to rush the passer as he always has. It'll just be a tad bit different look with Wade's scheme. And if Wade is who we think he is, Mario will be even more successful than he's been. If he buys into it, that is.

silvrhand
05-10-2011, 01:08 PM
I think there are some reading way too much into this. Mario's position isn't changing that much. Per Wade, Mario will be playing the WILL LB in this 5-2. He'll still be primarily on the right side with either a hand down or standing. I don't think they'll be asking him to lose that much weight, if any at all. Wade also stated he'll be in coverage less than 5% of the time which is basically what he's done in the past with that stupid drop zone crap.

I think a majority of the changes will involve the D-Ryans, Cushing and Barwin/Reed positions. Mario's going to rush the passer as he always has. It'll just be a tad bit different look with Wade's scheme. And if Wade is who we think he is, Mario will be even more successful than he's been. If he buys into it, that is.

Won't believe until I see mario giving 100% effort on every play, which is not likely to happen.

b0ng
05-10-2011, 01:21 PM
SIs highly respected Peter King

Found the problem with the body mass difference right here. Peter King should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to details like that. Especially if talking about a team that doesn't get a whole lot of exposure that he wouldn't know as much about (he's a Pats guy).

Norg
05-10-2011, 01:32 PM
SO bassically Mario needs to drop a few pounds this off season i think he can do it

El Tejano
05-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Just put Mario on P90X, he'll get his weight down.

digitalswim
05-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Found the problem with the body mass difference right here. Peter King should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to details like that. Especially if talking about a team that doesn't get a whole lot of exposure that he wouldn't know as much about (he's a Pats guy).

One of the interesting things about Peter King's latest column was the stat showing how much Demarcus Ware was in coverage for last years games. According to the article he was in pass coverage a total of 6 times for the entire season. That might alleviate some of the stress people have about leaving Mario in space.

El Tejano
05-10-2011, 02:00 PM
One of the interesting things about Peter King's latest column was the stat showing how much Demarcus Ware was in coverage for last years games. According to the article he was in pass coverage a total of 6 times for the entire season. That might alleviate some of the stress people have about leaving Mario in space.

So a friend of mine who works with me and is a "die hard" (i never consider cowboy fans to be diehard - not hard to be a fan of a team that's won Super Bowls IMO) and he said that Peter King is right. Demarcus Ware would hardly ever go out in coverage and the way they made up for it was by switching to alot of 3-3-5 packages.

3 down lineman plus Demarcus Ware, with two LBs and 5 DBs. It all depended on the coverages. This might be where Shilo Keo comes in and helps us alot too.

HOU-TEX
05-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Won't believe until I see mario giving 100% effort on every play, which is not likely to happen.

This I can agree with to a certain degree. It's not that I don't think he gives a 100% on the field. It's what he could achieve by giving 100% off the field during the off season to better his craft. Taking tae kwon do lessons, boxing lessons or anything that might improve his hand speed and eventually allow him to do more than just bull rush

Rey
05-10-2011, 04:29 PM
This I can agree with to a certain degree. It's not that I don't think he gives a 100% on the field. It's what he could achieve by giving 100% off the field during the off season to better his craft. Taking tae kwon do lessons, boxing lessons or anything that might improve his hand speed and eventually allow him to do more than just bull rush

I remember after Cushing came and was taking MMA lessons Andre came out and said that he had taken boxing or some kind of combat lessons. I had never heard of him taking classes like that until someone asked him about Cushing.

My point is, we don't really know what all these guys do in their own work-out time...

Some guys post videos, while other guys just quietly go about their work.

beerlover
05-10-2011, 04:38 PM
Won't believe until I see mario giving 100% effort on every play, which is not likely to happen.

Sometimes the truth hurts :mariopalm:

thunderkyss
05-16-2011, 03:20 PM
Looks like Mario to OLB wasn't their first option.... with Wade talking about the success Mario could have at DE in his defense, I'm sure many of you were thinking the same already.

At the bottom of this article (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Phillips-clarifies-plans-for-Williams-in-%E2%80%9C5-2%E2%80%9D-front/22e614bb-8639-4cee-834c-ee09ee32910a)
We were looking in the draft for the best pass rusher. Well, we had him on our team, and so we just moved him to that position rather than going the other way around.”

Ole Miss Texan
05-16-2011, 03:46 PM
Looks like Mario to OLB wasn't their first option.... with Wade talking about the success Mario could have at DE in his defense, I'm sure many of you were thinking the same already.

Thanks for the link... from the article:

On Monday, defensive coordinator Wade Phillips said that Williams essentially will still be an end in his defense – he’ll just be on his feet more.

“They say ‘3-4’, ‘4-3’, all that,” Phillips said at the Texans' annual Charity Golf Classic. “We really play a 5-2. We play five defensive linemen that can rush the passer and two inside 'backers who can tackle people. And we think Mario certainly fits in there.”

In that 5-2 front, Williams will often be standing up on the right edge of the defensive line as the Will (weakside outside) linebacker.

Asked how much concern he has about Williams dropping into coverage, Phillips replied, “None.”

“We’re not going to drop him,” Phillips said. “We’re going to rush him. That’s why I say we’re more of a 5-2, in that those five guys are coming a lot of the time, especially the position Mario plays. DeMarcus Ware played that position, Bryce Paup – on and on, guys that have led the league. They didn’t lead the league in sacks by dropping a whole lot.”

“We put (Williams) in the premier position,” Phillips said. “You’re rushing the passer more at Will, and so that’s where we put him. We were looking in the draft for the best pass rusher. Well, we had him on our team, and so we just moved him to that position rather than going the other way around.”

What a lot of us have been thinking. OLB / DE... call him what you want but he's not going to have the same role of the prototypcial 34 OLB or DE that people think. He's going to rush the passer. period. I'm getting really excited about this front 7. Add in a veteran free agent CB and I'm pumped about our secondary/defense in general!!

Mr teX
05-16-2011, 04:30 PM
I didn't compare MW to fat Albert as players/people. Maybe you need to lighten up a little. I was just saying if BoB wants to get the most out of MW. He needs to have him play yr to yr for a contract.

I know you're a MW fan/apoligist. But the reason yr to yr is the way to go with MW is he will get in football shape during the offseason instead of partying. This is part of MW's problem with injuries. MW needs to grow up and become a team leader. I hope it happens. I have my doubts. MW has never been a 100% effort guy on every play dating back to his college days.

MW is so talented he can be a top 10 DE without putting forth alot of effort. To be an elite DE/OLB he needs to put in the offseason work. He's never done this before. But it's a contract yr so I expect to see the best of MW.

:toropalm:

BigBull17
05-18-2011, 12:09 PM
pure bullshit. comparing mario to fat albert shows pure cluelessness.

mario is one of the most consistent players in the league. by my quick research, since 2007 only ware has more sacks & none of the other top passrushers play the run as well as mario. considering the generally shitty D's mario has been on compared to ware & other top guys (which allows them get...gasp....coverage sacks), id say thats quite an achievement

the only reason mario doesnt play as well in some games as in others is for one singular reason- injury. the last 2 yrs his production & play tailed off at the end of both yrs because of this. it has nothing to do with his motor

Whats a coverage sack? Better question, whats coverage?