PDA

View Full Version : Look at this play, tell me what you think


thunderkyss
05-07-2011, 10:10 AM
This is a Brandon Harris Highlight video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0yjcu9CJvc). I want you to look at the play at 1:17, tell me what you think.

This is the start of the play, Harris is at the top of the screen, covering the slot receiver.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris1.jpg

He bumps the slot receiver about seven yards from the LOS, but notices the underneath guy is wide open.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris2.jpg
I can't tell if he sees the QB looking at the underneath receiver, or if he just wants to cover that receiver.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris3.jpg
Leaving the guy in the slot, with only the safety way over the top. If the slot receiver would have cut in to the middle of the field, everything would have been ok. The safety is up top & you have a LB underneath, making it a difficult throw.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris4.jpg
But the receiver cuts outside, underneath the WR who clears a big path for him.

Now in this instance, I think everyone would say Harris made a good play. After all, he went on to intercept the ball.

But there is no pressure on the QB. Had he waited a second longer to see what Harris was going to do, he could have thrown the ball to the slot receiver for what would definitely have been an easy throw & catch, first down & possibly big play.

So, my question is this. It worked out for him this time. If you were his coach, what would you tell him?

b0ng
05-07-2011, 10:51 AM
This is a Brandon Harris Highlight video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0yjcu9CJvc). I want you to look at the play at 1:17, tell me what you think.

This is the start of the play, Harris is at the top of the screen, covering the slot receiver.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris1.jpg

He bumps the slot receiver about seven yards from the LOS, but notices the underneath guy is wide open.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris2.jpg
I can't tell if he sees the QB looking at the underneath receiver, or if he just wants to cover that receiver.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris3.jpg
Leaving the guy in the slot, with only the safety way over the top. If the slot receiver would have cut in to the middle of the field, everything would have been ok. The safety is up top & you have a LB underneath, making it a difficult throw.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris4.jpg
But the receiver cuts outside, underneath the WR who clears a big path for him.

Now in this instance, I think everyone would say Harris made a good play. After all, he went on to intercept the ball.

But there is no pressure on the QB. Had he waited a second longer to see what Harris was going to do, he could have thrown the ball to the slot receiver for what would definitely have been an easy throw & catch, first down & possibly big play.

So, my question is this. It worked out for him this time. If you were his coach, what would you tell him?

You have to ask him what he was thinking, what was going through his mind that caused him to make that decision before you can praise/criticize that particular play.

XI CMURDER IX
05-07-2011, 10:59 AM
I think the quarterback focused in on his checkdown route once he saw that Harris was going to be committed to the slot receiver. Also, since you can't tell from slides 3 to 4 where the linebacker on the strong side is headed to. The quarterback might have read that the linebacker was going to shade over to the slot.

Then again, it could have just been the way Harris was suppose to play that particular route.

CloakNNNdagger
05-07-2011, 11:05 AM
You have to ask him what he was thinking, what was going through his mind that caused him to make that decision before you can praise/criticize that particular play.

This^^

He should have followed his own man. The roving MLB was in position to cover the man he came back to....maybe not for an interception, but certainly only for a small gain. The other scenario that TK pointed out makes it questionable if it was worth the risk.

infantrycak
05-07-2011, 11:18 AM
Sorry looks like classic coverage releasing to the safety to me. Not sure where the question really is on this one. I suspect the coach said good job and never questioned why he released since it was the design of the coverage.

RTP2110
05-07-2011, 11:47 AM
Without any of us knowing what his assignment was on that call, we can't really judge him on it. To me it looks like he made the right play. Looks like he was suppose to bump his man, then drop into a zone coverage with short-to-long responsibilities. (Where he may have messed up, is that he was likely supposed to funnel his man inside toward the safety.)

This is the big thing: you can't see if the safety breaks to the outside to pick up that slot WR that Harris released. In my mind I see the outside CB on the outside WR, the safety breaks outside to pick up the slot guy, and Harris has the RB underneath.

Watch the LB. He drops back, and it looks like he has the middle zone underneath the safeties. The back is running a route right in front of him and he never breaks on the back. He only breaks toward the back after the ball is thrown.

IF Harris had stayed with the slot WR, there would have been him, the safety and the LB all in that area with NO ONE marking the RB. (You clearly see the LB isn't covering the back.)

I think Harris did the right thing, but no one can say 100% other than Miami's coaching staff


The play is at 1:15 of this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0yjcu9CJvc

76Texan
05-07-2011, 12:00 PM
TK, this is exactly what I'm talking about in pattern-matching.
The LCB runs with the X receiver on the go route.
The nickel back (Harris) releases the slot receiver when he sees the RB runs a quick out to the flat.

This is different from straight man coverage in which case, Harris would follow the slot and the LB would take on the RB.

c10x
05-07-2011, 01:07 PM
Sorry looks like classic coverage releasing to the safety to me. Not sure where the question really is on this one. I suspect the coach said good job and never questioned why he released since it was the design of the coverage.

Yep.

I watched it a few times, and looked at the pics a few times, and to me, it just looks like they were running a cover 2 zone out of the nickel, so his job was to stay with his man unless someone came underneath so he read that, and jumped the play. Thats why the other corner is also there at as he's getting tackled. He too was supposed to get underneath if someone was there.

dream_team
05-07-2011, 01:46 PM
Without any of us knowing what his assignment was on that call, we can't really judge him on it. To me it looks like he made the right play. Looks like he was suppose to bump his man, then drop into a zone coverage with short-to-long responsibilities. (Where he may have messed up, is that he was likely supposed to funnel his man inside toward the safety.)

This is the big thing: you can't see if the safety breaks to the outside to pick up that slot WR that Harris released. In my mind I see the outside CB on the outside WR, the safety breaks outside to pick up the slot guy, and Harris has the RB underneath.

Watch the LB. He drops back, and it looks like he has the middle zone underneath the safeties. The back is running a route right in front of him and he never breaks on the back. He only breaks toward the back after the ball is thrown.

IF Harris had stayed with the slot WR, there would have been him, the safety and the LB all in that area with NO ONE marking the RB. (You clearly see the LB isn't covering the back.)

I think Harris did the right thing, but no one can say 100% other than Miami's coaching staff


The play is at 1:15 of this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0yjcu9CJvc

This ^^^ !!! We don't really know what his defensive assignment was on this play. Only he and the coaches know if he actually played well or not. Whether he gambled, made a poor decision, just got lucky.... or whether he made the correct play and got rewarded.

alphajoker
05-07-2011, 02:43 PM
Yep.

I watched it a few times, and looked at the pics a few times, and to me, it just looks like they were running a cover 2 zone out of the nickel, so his job was to stay with his man unless someone came underneath so he read that, and jumped the play. Thats why the other corner is also there at as he's getting tackled. He too was supposed to get underneath if someone was there.

I agree. It looks like they were in cover 2 and he did his job and covered the out. But ultimately, you would have to ask him what he was think or what they were running at the time.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 12:19 PM
Well, now I'm wondering why Kjac hasn't been given this much leniency when many of his "mistakes" were along the same lines.

If I were the coach, I'd be all over Harris. I'd recognize the good play & everything, but there is no way that defense was designed to be ran that way. He should have forced the slot receiver towards the defense, or after dropping him to the safety, widen out underneath that route. Kind of like RTP said.

Like Cloak said, the LB would have stopped that underneath pass for a short gain & not the 10+ that would have been given up had the QB been Peytonesque & pumped faked the CB.

Lucky
05-08-2011, 12:29 PM
Well, now I'm wondering why Kjac hasn't been given this much leniency when many of his "mistakes" were along the same lines.

If I were the coach, I'd be all over Harris. I'd recognize the good play & everything, but there is no way that defense was designed to be ran that way.
There is a way, and it's been documented in this thread.


I watched it a few times, and looked at the pics a few times, and to me, it just looks like they were running a cover 2 zone out of the nickel, so his job was to stay with his man unless someone came underneath so he read that, and jumped the play. Thats why the other corner is also there at as he's getting tackled. He too was supposed to get underneath if someone was there.

I don't know why you want to turn this into a Kareem Jackson thread. But I will say this about Jackson - his errors seem to be as much (or more) physical than mental. Jackson gets beat at the line, has receivers runa way from him, and is broken down in the open field. My biggest concern regarding Jackson is that no matter the improvement in coaching, he never becomes good enough.

b0ng
05-08-2011, 01:08 PM
Well, now I'm wondering why Kjac hasn't been given this much leniency when many of his "mistakes" were along the same lines.

If I were the coach, I'd be all over Harris. I'd recognize the good play & everything, but there is no way that defense was designed to be ran that way. He should have forced the slot receiver towards the defense, or after dropping him to the safety, widen out underneath that route. Kind of like RTP said.

Like Cloak said, the LB would have stopped that underneath pass for a short gain & not the 10+ that would have been given up had the QB been Peytonesque & pumped faked the CB.

Kareem Jackson gets about as much of a pass as any rookie who played terribly his first year. There's a relatively small segment of our population that think he is already a "bust" but for the most part we are waiting to see what happens in year two.

But again, speaking as a coach and not a knee-jerking fan, I'd hopefully have the foresight to question him on the play, what his responsibilities were and why he decided to jump that route like he did. I certainly wouldn't be taking him off the field unless he gave me some Cam Newton answers to my questions.

Wolf6151
05-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Looks like a great play to me. He's on the slot receiver bumps him, then releases the WR to the FS over the top and picks up the RB that was uncovered. Great play by Harris. I'd be mad at the LB who was slow to pick up the RB coming out of the backfield.

76Texan
05-08-2011, 01:33 PM
Miami employs the pattern reading concept in its zone coverage that Saban teaches at Alabama.

Saban heavily coaches up “pattern reading” within his zone drops.

The two zone-dropping schools of thought are to teach “spot-drops” or “pattern-reading.”

One can overemphasize the distinction, but generally spot-dropping is easier to teach and was the traditional approach. For example, if your outside linebacker is responsible for the weak-flat, he will take his read steps and, upon reading pass, will drop to a spot and then react to the QB’s eyes. A big advantage with spot-dropping is simply that it is easy to teach to, say, a run-stuffing inside linebacker who spends most of his time on run game pursuit and shedding blocks. But the weakness is that well coached receivers – who have enough time – can become excellent at settling in the “zone holes” between defenders. And, with good receivers and good QBs, offenses have become more and more adept and finding and exploiting these zone holes.
(Spot-dropping is what the Texans used under Smith and Bush.)

Pattern-reading, on the other hand, is much like a matchup-zone in basketball. Defenders are responsible for zones but they basically play man on the receivers who come into their zones. Moreover, pattern-read teams begin by immediately coaching their defenders on how to recognize popular pass combinations (and indeed, the very concept of pass-combinations themselves), and each week zero in on the 5-15 most common pass concepts they will see from that opponent. When done correctly, pattern-reading defenders know exactly how to cover receivers in their zones and seamlessly (in a quite literal sense) pass the receivers onto other defenders as they run their routes.

76Texan
05-08-2011, 01:58 PM
On this play, notice that the outside receiver was in a wide split (between the side line and the numbers).
The LCB played outside leverage to take away any inside route.
He then run with the receiver, using the side line as an extra defender.

In the Texans 2-deep, 5-underneath coverage, the LCB won't play outside leverage; instead, he would try to turn the receiver inside, pass him off and then drop to his spot in the zone (about 10-12 yards deep unless it was a red-zone situation) to watch for any intermediate out route by the slot receiver or a quick out route by the RB.
The nickel back would drop a little further back (also about 10-12 yds deep).

If we only talk about this play, you can see that if Harris drops 10-12 yards deep as in the spot-drop scheme, it will be a simple catch for the RB out of the backfield (probably about 5 yards as both DBs react back).

More importantly, there will be two vertical routes deep that the safety will have to defend if neither DB strectches his zone back further (as the Texans sometimes failed to do.)

76Texan
05-08-2011, 02:06 PM
Why did this play work?

Since Miami vary their schemes between man-under and zone, the QB made the wrong read. (I have the game film so it's easier to see - this one is from 09)

When the QB saw the LCB following the outside receiver and Harris turning to follow the slot receiver; he immediately figured that the LB was late and would never be able to catch up to the RB.

I won't claim anything; maybe somebody can ask him (Harris) later when he has the chance.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 02:06 PM
There is a way, and it's been documented in this thread.
There is only one corner near the tackle. The other guy is a LB who I believe had the responsibility of the under receiver. The LB was a day late on the play & Harris was making up for his screw up.

That play was not designed the way it was ran.


I don't know why you want to turn this into a Kareem Jackson thread. But I will say this about Jackson - his errors seem to be as much (or more) physical than mental. Jackson gets beat at the line, has receivers runa way from him, and is broken down in the open field. My biggest concern regarding Jackson is that no matter the improvement in coaching, he never becomes good enough.

Didn't want to turn this into a KJ thread. My comment was more about poster's reluctance to comment on the play, when most have had no qualms about doing it all season long.

"Let's be fair to this kid, we don't know what the coverage was supposed to be."

When I say the same thing about our plays, our players, for our team...... it doesn't go over so well.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 02:10 PM
Looks like a great play to me. He's on the slot receiver bumps him, then releases the WR to the FS over the top and picks up the RB that was uncovered. Great play by Harris. I'd be mad at the LB who was slow to pick up the RB coming out of the backfield.

I think this is absolutely correct. He gave up his responsibility to cover up for someone else's mistake. Good thing for the Hurricanes, that QB (whoever he is) bet wrong, & Harris was quick enough to get there.

76Texan
05-08-2011, 02:11 PM
"Let's be fair to this kid, we don't know what the coverage was supposed to be."When I say the same thing about our plays, our players, for our team...... it doesn't go over so well.
Excellent point!

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 02:13 PM
Miami employs the pattern reading concept in its zone coverage that Saban teaches at Alabama.

Saban heavily coaches up “pattern reading” within his zone drops.

The two zone-dropping schools of thought are to teach “spot-drops” or “pattern-reading.”

One can overemphasize the distinction, but generally spot-dropping is easier to teach and was the traditional approach. For example, if your outside linebacker is responsible for the weak-flat, he will take his read steps and, upon reading pass, will drop to a spot and then react to the QB’s eyes. A big advantage with spot-dropping is simply that it is easy to teach to, say, a run-stuffing inside linebacker who spends most of his time on run game pursuit and shedding blocks. But the weakness is that well coached receivers – who have enough time – can become excellent at settling in the “zone holes” between defenders. And, with good receivers and good QBs, offenses have become more and more adept and finding and exploiting these zone holes.
(Spot-dropping is what the Texans used under Smith and Bush.)

Pattern-reading, on the other hand, is much like a matchup-zone in basketball. Defenders are responsible for zones but they basically play man on the receivers who come into their zones. Moreover, pattern-read teams begin by immediately coaching their defenders on how to recognize popular pass combinations (and indeed, the very concept of pass-combinations themselves), and each week zero in on the 5-15 most common pass concepts they will see from that opponent. When done correctly, pattern-reading defenders know exactly how to cover receivers in their zones and seamlessly (in a quite literal sense) pass the receivers onto other defenders as they run their routes.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know there were two schools of thought. I always thought it was about pattern recognition. This "spot-dropping" does sound like what I saw the Texans doing. If that is what they were being taught, I'm glad Bush & Gibbs are gone.

76Texan
05-08-2011, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the info. I didn't know there were two schools of thought. I always thought it was about pattern recognition. This "spot-dropping" does sound like what I saw the Texans doing. If that is what they were being taught, I'm glad Bush & Gibbs are gone.

There are pluses and minuses about both schemes.

IMO, the spot drop scheme requires a lot of patience and discipline by the players.
If they do it right (like in the first game against the Colts), you can see good results.
You see a lot of passes that Manning completed into the dead spots in the zone.
The long passes were far and few in between and only due to mistakes by the players.

That said, most of us fans (if not nearly all) dislike this scheme.
It's hard to watch the other team marching down the field.

Wade's playbook has a wide variety of schemes up front as well as in coverage.

He does use some spot-drop, but the majority of the time, you will see the pattern-reading scheme on top of man coverage.

Why I noticed that he drafted 3 secondary players (Harris, Carmichael, and Keo) who came from the same coverage scheme.

b0ng
05-08-2011, 04:28 PM
"Let's be fair to this kid, we don't know what the coverage was supposed to be."

When I say the same thing about our plays, our players, for our team...... it doesn't go over so well.

To be fair we watch the Texans players and try to know everything we can possibly ascertain about their defensive scheme's and coverages. I mean if a Hurricane fan came into this thread and shed light on what Miami normally does in coverage I would trust their opinion.

Kinda surprised you didn't go with a vid from Harris's Sun Bowl performance where Michael Floyd beasted out.

Rey
05-08-2011, 05:18 PM
If you look at the way Harris played the receiver you can tell that he wasn't in man coverage.

He bumped the receiver like he was supposed to and then he came off and made that play.

Those who are saying the LB was at fault are wrong as well...IMO....

Just about every defensive play has holes in it and can be exploited in some way. But if you look at the technique Harris played, and how fast he came off it's pretty easy to see what they were doing.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 07:54 PM
To be fair we watch the Texans players and try to know everything we can possibly ascertain about their defensive scheme's and coverages. I mean if a Hurricane fan came into this thread and shed light on what Miami normally does in coverage I would trust their opinion.

Kinda surprised you didn't go with a vid from Harris's Sun Bowl performance where Michael Floyd beasted out.

My point, is that we break down plays all the time. Our defense, our opponents. Our offense, our opponents. Highlight reels of draft prospects. Highlight reels of draftees, etc.....

This isn't (& never was) about right or wrong.

What did you think about the play? Why? If you were the coach, how would you have reacted?

What did you think of the play of Brandon Harris.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 07:58 PM
If you look at the way Harris played the receiver you can tell that he wasn't in man coverage.

He bumped the receiver like he was supposed to and then he came off and made that play.

Those who are saying the LB was at fault are wrong as well...IMO....

Just about every defensive play has holes in it and can be exploited in some way. But if you look at the technique Harris played, and how fast he came off it's pretty easy to see what they were doing.

So you are fine with what happened?

How would you feel, if that QB (with no pressure at all) had pump faked, then delivered the ball to the WR Harris left for a 15 yard pickup?

Fico
05-08-2011, 08:33 PM
Harris made the right read and play in this scenario. With 2 verticals Cover 2 will turn into cover 4 with the outside corner carrying the vertical of 1 and the safety over the top of the vertical of 2. The "seem dropper" in this instance is a curl to flat player. Harris does just that, he escorts 2 out of the the curl to the safety and works back down to the flat pattern. The route by 2 is insignificant to Harris, even if the pass would have been completed. This play is a cover two beater and the QB made the wrong read. The offense had the correct call for the called defense and mis-executed, that does not mean that Harris was incorrect in his play completion or no completion.

Basic flood concepts at work more WRs in a zone than defenders.

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 09:09 PM
Harris made the right read and play in this scenario.

I'm with you.

With 2 verticals Cover 2 will turn into cover 4 with the outside corner carrying the vertical of 1 and the safety over the top of the vertical of 2. The "seem dropper" in this instance is a curl to flat player. Harris does just that, he escorts 2 out of the the curl to the safety and works back down to the flat pattern. The route by 2 is insignificant to Harris, even if the pass would have been completed.

I don't know. If he is dropping into his zone, I would imagine he is supposed to widen & cover both the curl under the 9 & the receiver in the flat. If he read the QB (which I'm sure he did) then good job, good instinct, good recognition (for all I know, they ran this play twice already & the 'canes had seen enough).

but I guarantee, someone would have been upset with Harris, if the QB pump faked him & threw to the slot receiver.

Big picture & everything, Peyton Manning does this all the time. People think he is starring down a receiver, but he's waiting for someone to make a decision. Usually a LB or a safety, but a nickel CB would be fine with him. Whatever you chose, it will be the wrong one.

I'd much rather my CB look at the big picture, give up the underneath stuff, limit the big plays. Bend, don't break.

This play is a cover two beater and the QB made the wrong read. The offense had the correct call for the called defense and mis-executed, that does not mean that Harris was incorrect in his play completion or no completion.

Basic flood concepts at work more WRs in a zone than defenders.
Cover two, turns into cover 4. That would mean I've got a safety, and two CBs in this instance, against 2 receivers & a TE/RB....

Basic flood concept...... 3 Receivers.... 3 Defenders.... I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Let's imagine the Texans didn't draft anyone on the field during that game. Would you be happy with the way the play developed? would you be happy that the QB read it wrong? That you got lucky on that one?

That's the kind of stuff that will get you fired. "Good job kids, but we can get better. Here are our opportunities to be better. LB, you're 6 yards of the L.O.S. your responsibility is the TE/RB/FB.... you've got to get better here. CB.... you call that redirecting??? let's do better here. Safety.... what are you doing over there?? LCB is awesome, looks like a frek'n blanket with his man running out of bounds, you need to be down here, or even here. WTF are you doing over there?"

thunderkyss
05-08-2011, 09:15 PM
Don't get me wrong guys, I like Brandon Harris. I was hoping the Texans would pass on the CB in the first, grab an OLB & pick Harris in the early second.

I'm worried about the Watt pick, I was upset about it on draft day & when they passed on Harris, I was livid..... but when they walked away with Watt, Reed, & Harris... I was ecstatic & almost believing in GK again.. almost.

But good coaching would have him looking at his good plays, & finding ways he could have played them better. He might not have got an INT. Probably wouldn't have made the stat sheet playing it the way I thought he should have played it. & maybe he would have played it "my way" because he "knew" that LB wasn't going to do his job.

All I'm saying, is that there were a lot of things in that play (not only with Harris) that will get you compared to Kareem Jackson in the NFL. Peyton Manning is looking for exactly what we saw there.

Fico
05-08-2011, 11:28 PM
I'm with you.

I don't know. If he is dropping into his zone, I would imagine he is supposed to widen & cover both the curl under the 9 & the receiver in the flat. If he read the QB (which I'm sure he did) then good job, good instinct, good recognition (for all I know, they ran this play twice already & the 'canes had seen enough).

In cover 2 the "seem droppers" on either side are curl defenders. The entire defense is reading number 2. If 2 pushes vertical, the CB climbs regardless of what WR#1 does. If WR1 pulls up short then a smash call is given and the seem dropper, in this case Harris, screams to the flat. The Cb climbs if #2 goes vertical so that he can play the deep level of the smash, or stay on top of #1 if he pushes vertical.

Since #2 pushes vertical and number #1 pushes vertical this makes your two deep coverage a quarters concept. The safety has a quarter and the CB has a quarter to the play side. Since Harris has already carried his receiver out of the curl, and by the essence of the coverage turning into a quarters concept, he is able to drive the flat route immediately, being that seem droppers are flat defenders in cover 4.

but I guarantee, someone would have been upset with Harris, if the QB pump faked him & threw to the slot receiver. I disagree as it was a good call that outnumbered the defense in the particular zone they were targeting.

Big picture & everything, Peyton Manning does this all the time. People think he is starring down a receiver, but he's waiting for someone to make a decision. Usually a LB or a safety, but a nickel CB would be fine with him. Whatever you chose, it will be the wrong one. This is correct and Peyton is very accurate with the ball so he can make you pay... that is why you beat Peyton by hitting his ass not by "playing coverage".

I'd much rather my CB look at the big picture, give up the underneath stuff, limit the big plays. Bend, don't break. That isn't how this defensive concept is built to adjust to these routes which is why the offense ran them in the first place.

Cover two, turns into cover 4. That would mean I've got a safety, and two CBs in this instance, against 2 receivers & a TE/RB.... YEs but in the zone they are flooding you have two WRs, #1 and #2 and TE/RB #3 versus the CB and the seem drooper. The safety is going to be late regardless due to the route concepts here. So it is essentially a 3 on 2 and this is exactly how the play would be drawn up on an offensive board, the QB misread.

Basic flood concept...... 3 Receivers.... 3 Defenders.... I don't think that word means what you think it means. See above.

Let's imagine the Texans didn't draft anyone on the field during that game. Would you be happy with the way the play developed? would you be happy that the QB read it wrong? That you got lucky on that one?

That's the kind of stuff that will get you fired. "Good job kids, but we can get better. Here are our opportunities to be better. LB, you're 6 yards of the L.O.S. your responsibility is the TE/RB/FB.... you've got to get better here. CB.... you call that redirecting??? let's do better here. Safety.... what are you doing over there?? LCB is awesome, looks like a frek'n blanket with his man running out of bounds, you need to be down here, or even here. WTF are you doing over there?"

That is not the kind of stuff that gets anyone fired as it happens several times every game from both an offensive and defensive perspective. What matter is being able to make the correct defensive calls and dictating due to mismatches or predicting offensive play calls in situations.

This was a good offensive play call/concept that was designed for this exact defense and it was mis-executed. There is no defense or offense for that matter that is unbeatable regardless of what is throw at it.

76Texan
05-09-2011, 12:39 AM
Harris made the right read and play in this scenario. With 2 verticals Cover 2 will turn into cover 4 with the outside corner carrying the vertical of 1 and the safety over the top of the vertical of 2. The "seem dropper" in this instance is a curl to flat player. Harris does just that, he escorts 2 out of the the curl to the safety and works back down to the flat pattern. The route by 2 is insignificant to Harris, even if the pass would have been completed. This play is a cover two beater and the QB made the wrong read. The offense had the correct call for the called defense and mis-executed, that does not mean that Harris was incorrect in his play completion or no completion.

Basic flood concepts at work more WRs in a zone than defenders.

I have problem with your premises.

As the outside cornerback turned to the outside to run with WR #1, he can't see what #2 was doing.
In fact, he never look back to see what else was happening.

Rey
05-09-2011, 07:29 AM
So you are fine with what happened?

How would you feel, if that QB (with no pressure at all) had pump faked, then delivered the ball to the WR Harris left for a 15 yard pickup?

That would have been on the safety.

Look at how Harris played. He never had intentions of covering the slot all the way down the field.

thunderkyss
05-09-2011, 12:34 PM
That would have been on the safety.

Look at how Harris played. He never had intentions of covering the slot all the way down the field.

I don't believe he was supposed to. I think he was supposed to do exactly what he did, but instead of jumping the underneath route, I think he should have widened out, in case the slot receiver cut out like he did. The QB would have had to throw it over Harris & still in bounds. A more difficult throw than the one he took.

My way, it would have been a completed pass to the guy in the flat.

Harris' way got him an INT, but left the team vulnerable to a big play.

I can't call that on the safety as he has over the top responsibilities and in the middle of the field. I think he is there in case WR2 ran a post.

thunderkyss
05-09-2011, 12:35 PM
Hey guys, I'm not saying I'm right.... I could be completely wrong with my assumptions.

But, we've got a good football conversation going on here, so thanks for all your input.

76Texan
05-09-2011, 01:08 PM
Hey guys, I'm not saying I'm right.... I could be completely wrong with my assumptions.

But, we've got a good football conversation going on here, so thanks for all your input.

Same here.

What I think is that there are 2 situations:
Spot-drop zone, Pattern-matching zone, or man coverage.

1. It can't be man because neither the LB (on the RB) or Harris (on the slot) run with his man.

2. It can't be spot-drop because none of the 5 guys underneath worked to any landmark.

3. Therefore, it can only be pattern-matching.

This is how I see it:

In pattern-matching, the rule for the outside CB is to run with the #1 if it's a vertical (which it was).

The safety's main concern is the most immediate inside vertical threat (the seam and the post.) My game tape has a replay that shows the safety watched the #2 and only break to follow when #2 run the iintermediate-out route.

The nickel back (Harris) must attempt to re-route #2 (which he did) and not allowing him to run a straight seam route. He then can jump on #3 as this threat enters his zone.

The LB is responsible for any underneath route to the inside.
There was none; therefore, instead of working to his normal hook zone, he simply expands toward the ball.

Rey
05-09-2011, 04:46 PM
I don't believe he was supposed to. I think he was supposed to do exactly what he did, but instead of jumping the underneath route, I think he should have widened out, in case the slot receiver cut out like he did. The QB would have had to throw it over Harris & still in bounds. A more difficult throw than the one he took.

My way, it would have been a completed pass to the guy in the flat.

Harris' way got him an INT, but left the team vulnerable to a big play.

I can't call that on the safety as he has over the top responsibilities and in the middle of the field. I think he is there in case WR2 ran a post.

TK, look how fast the play happened...He didn't have time to widen out. That's not the technique he was playing anyways. You can look at any given play and find something that the offense could have exploited. All defenses have weaknesses and holes somewhere. A lot of defensive calls leaves a team vulnerable to big plays...

But besides all that, teams are not robotic. They have tendencies. For all we know Harris or his position coaches could have seen that play on film before and said hey...when you get this read, break on the ball as hard as you can...

Or they could have seen something on film that suggested that he liked to hit his back on that pattern...They may have seen that the QB doesn't do well scanning the whole field...

There are any number of things that may go into making a single play a success or a failure...Sometimes guys get lucky/unlucky, sometimes they watch a lot of film and can pick up on tendencies that we cannot see from watching a single game....Sometimes they pick up on stuff during the course of the game...Sometimes you know you can get away with stuff against some offenses that you can't get away with against others...

But one thing is for sure...If a guy makes a good play, it's a good play.

thunderkyss
05-09-2011, 06:16 PM
TK, look how fast the play happened...He didn't have time to widen out. That's not the technique he was playing anyways. You can look at any given play and find something that the offense could have exploited. All defenses have weaknesses and holes somewhere. A lot of defensive calls leaves a team vulnerable to big plays...

I understand that. That's why I am saying I would have coached my player to leave the small vulnerability, not the big one.

But besides all that, teams are not robotic. They have tendencies. For all we know Harris or his position coaches could have seen that play on film before and said hey...when you get this read, break on the ball as hard as you can...


I mentioned this as a possibility as well. & if that were the case, then I'd have no problem with what happened.

There are any number of things that may go into making a single play a success or a failure...Sometimes guys get lucky/unlucky, sometimes they watch a lot of film and can pick up on tendencies that we cannot see from watching a single game....Sometimes they pick up on stuff during the course of the game...Sometimes you know you can get away with stuff against some offenses that you can't get away with against others...

I understand this as well. IF you are fine with the play, good for you. Thanks for sharing.

I've got my opinion, you've got yours.

But one thing is for sure...If a guy makes a good play, it's a good play.

Again, If I were his coach, I'd slap him on his ass & tell him he did a good job. Monday morning I'm going to point out what we didn't want to happen & how he put us in jeopardy.

Rey
05-09-2011, 06:20 PM
I understand that. That's why I am saying I would have coached my player to leave the small vulnerability, not the big one.

Sounds like you wouldn't be a very good defensive coach.

Defenses are supposed to take chances...That's the only way you make big plays...You know jumping routes...

A defense that plays it safe the whole time is a defense that is letting the offense dictate the game.



But besides all that...It really doesn't even look like that's what happened. It looks like he was doing what he was supposed to do which is ride the slot for a few yards then release him to the next level of coverage.

thunderkyss
05-09-2011, 08:23 PM
But besides all that...It really doesn't even look like that's what happened. It looks like he was doing what he was supposed to do which is ride the slot for a few yards then release him to the next level of coverage.

But there was no next level coverage. The slot receiver is wide open at the first down marker.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/Brandon%20Harris/Harris4.jpg

& I'm not telling him to not take chances. I'm telling him to think about what he is doing.

I remember plenty of times, when we've all been upset that our corners & safeties would bite hard on run fakes and pump fakes.

He got lucky on this one, that's all. If he keeps stringing plays like this together, then I wouldn't worry. His coach probably isn't worry, because maybe he does.

If I am going over this play, with my team, I'm pointing out the good things, with the bad. That's how you get better.

76Texan
05-10-2011, 02:24 AM
You guys know what?
This has been an excellent discussion, the stuffs that I live for!

I read and re-read the posts to learn and apply.
I think we're not talking too far apart.

Like Fico's scenarios, they make perfect sense if his premises are true.
I would go with it 110% if the outside CB played face-up to go into a backpedal or something of the sort such that he can see the #2

At any rate, I just want to point out that the LB was Sharpton.

76Texan
05-10-2011, 11:52 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/BrandonHarrisINT-FAMU.png

The safety wasn't really far off.
It was just a good cut by the #2 that made it difficult for the safety to react quick enough since he still had to worry about the post route or the seam route.

thunderkyss
05-10-2011, 03:23 PM
Like Fico's scenarios, they make perfect sense if his premises are true.
I would go with it 110% if the outside CB played face-up to go into a backpedal or something of the sort such that he can see the #2

I agree. Had the LCB played that differently it's a totally different scenario. Maybe the LCB played it "wrong" and left his team in a bad situation, saved by an amazing play.

This is exactly the reason I would go over this play with my team on Monday morning. Lots to learn for everyone.

At any rate, I just want to point out that the LB was Sharpton.

Ouch.

thunderkyss
05-10-2011, 03:25 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/vlcsnap-4134080.png

The safety wasn't really far off.
It was just a good cut by the #2 that made it difficult for the safety to react quick enough since he still had to worry about the post route or the seam route.

Which is another thing that makes me think the LCB played it the way it was drawn up & Harris & the LB did not. Had the design been for the LCB to drop & cover WR2's route, the safety would have been in the other picture over both WRs, but he was over the middle, like he was the single high safety.

JMO.

Fico
05-10-2011, 08:31 PM
My first several response were given just looking at the screen shots provided. I've gone back and re-watched this play several times since.

First I would like to clarify that all my comments up to this point had been under the assumption of running base cover 2. Everything I said is spot on, for base cover 2. The more I watch this clip the more I am convinced that Miami was in man under 2 deep coverage, or "Black" as we called it.

The alignments of all the defensive players dictate that, even the CB on the backside. I thought the alignments could have been a pre-snap disguise which would have made the QB's best throw the RB in the flat as he would be able to gain leverage on a LB better than WR on CB. The backside linebacker is the only one who looks to take a "zone drop" and I believe that is because he has the TE who stays in to block so he drops looking to help while keeping his eyes forward on his man.

Immediately following the snap all three CBs (including the bottom) settle back look for hand placement and are playing their man all the way. If this was base cover 2 or any type of zone coverage all the outside CBs would have made "zone turns" as opposed to "man turns" in order to read #2, get run pass reads, the QB's drop, etc.

Harris opens with his man and then redirect his hips after the WR gives him a stem move. It is during this redirect that Harris's eyes go to the QB, who based on pre-snap read and action immediately following the snap recognizes man coverage underneath and looks to hit the RB in the flat who would have significant leverage on the LB here. Good read by the QB. Harris's eyes catch this as he flips his hips and he takes a chance by breaking on the flat route dictated by the QB shoulder turn. It is a risk, but a calculated one in that he has safety help over the top. The worst case scenario if the ball doesn't go in the flat is they complete a 15-20 flag/deep out. If he plays perfect technique, exactly how it is drawn a chalk board the pass is completed to the RB in the flat who has gained leverage on the LB and probably gains an easy 15. The ultimate upside is the pick that happened or a tackle for a short gain on the flat route.

After watching this play about 20 times I would wager serious internet $$$$'s that the call was man under 2 deep.

As what to say to Harris in the film room. You would say "heck of a play young man." If it was completed to the deep out "what the hell were you doing Harris?" If it was completed to the RB who gained 15, "Sharpton, My grandmother could have taken a better angle than that."

thunderkyss
05-10-2011, 11:21 PM
As what to say to Harris in the film room. You would say "heck of a play young man." If it was completed to the deep out "what the hell were you doing Harris?" If it was completed to the RB who gained 15, "Sharpton, My grandmother could have taken a better angle than that."

& that's my point.

Your breakdown of the play is more detailed (& sounds more knowledgeable than my own), but we arrived at the same place, which to me is the only place a good coach should be.

The kid has good instincts. But looking to make that big play will get you killed in the NFL. Even in college.

You have to give him an attaboy, that INT probably won the game. But you also have to go over all the mistakes (again, he wasn't the only one who put the team in a bad spot on that play) if you want to get better as a team & you want your player to get better as a player & teammate.

Fans look at the big plays. They follow the ball & whatever happens away from the ball is of little or no concern. I don't know who that LCB is, or the receiver, but that CB took that receiver out of the play. He should get rewarded for that, even though it probably didn't make his own highlight reel.

76Texan
05-17-2011, 01:12 PM
Once again, I would agree if all the premises were met; however, as I watched the whole game, I can see that there were quite a few similar plays in which you can see that the Hurricanes were neither in pure man nor pure zone defense.

Harris jumped on the short routes several times.
Looks much more like pattern-matching as a whole to me.
On top of that, Miami could have had Harris spying on the RB in those instances.
It wasn't as direct as how Saban used Jackson on McCluster (in college) or how the Texans used Jackson on McCluster (in the NFL), but it sure seems like Harris paid a lot of attention to the back,