PDA

View Full Version : Quinn to safety (?)


Yankee_In_TX
04-30-2011, 11:54 AM
(Please merge, I am sure there must be a thread some where)

Interview with Vance Joseph, article from AJ:

When asked about what he's looking for out of his safeties, Joseph said: Its a split safety defense, so we really want two twins. We want two guys who can tackle. We want two guys who are smart. We want two guys who can cover and have range over top of the zone. Once we find that, thats the solution."

When asked specifically about Quin (and after he got the company line comments out of the way about playing guys where they're the best fit, yadda yadda), Joseph said, "I think, Quin, he can do those things. Being an ex-corner, hes going to have better cover skills than most safeties. Those traits he does have. We need to find one more.

http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/quin-move-to-safety-appears-to-be-a-done-deal

infantrycak
04-30-2011, 12:11 PM
Well that sounds like Quinn to safety is a done deal.

adboy
04-30-2011, 12:19 PM
"being an ex-corner" it's a done deal. also means that we are probably getting a vet corner

CloakNNNdagger
04-30-2011, 12:23 PM
It's hard enough to find a safety that can do one of those duties consistently well. Finding 2 that can do "everything??" Maybe, you rethink the system.....at least for now.

PockyAF
04-30-2011, 12:38 PM
What do you guys think of Quin at SS and Carmichael at FS? Carmichael is apparently a huge ballhawk (10 Ints in 2 seasons), but a bit unreliable as a tackler. He does give good effort in run support though.

I highly doubt that Carmichael is going to be our CB, unless we purge our current core (Allen, McCain, Molden, McMannis). And we have always been blessed with having our 4th round picks play like 2nd round pick. I wouldn't be surprise if our next 4th rounder fall in line with the others; just based on history.

BTW, Vance Joesph was saying that he thinks our safety combos should have similar skill sets. So don't think because Quin isn't 210-220, means he can't play SS for us.

badboy
04-30-2011, 03:21 PM
What do you guys think of Quin at SS and Carmichael at FS? Carmichael is apparently a huge ballhawk (10 Ints in 2 seasons), but a bit unreliable as a tackler. He does give good effort in run support though.

I highly doubt that Carmichael is going to be our CB, unless we purge our current core (Allen, McCain, Molden, McMannis). And we have always been blessed with having our 4th round picks play like 2nd round pick. I wouldn't be surprise if our next 4th rounder fall in line with the others; just based on history.

BTW, Vance Joesph was saying that he thinks our safety combos should have similar skill sets. So don't think because Quin isn't 210-220, means he can't play SS for us.I'd rather let Dominque Barber @6' 215lbs play the strong and keep RC @corner. He has everything he needs to develop into a good corner so coach him up. We have McMannis and Carmichael in reserve and both should develop well.

b0ng
04-30-2011, 03:28 PM
It's hard enough to find a safety that can do one of those duties consistently well. Finding 2 that can do "everything??" Maybe, you rethink the system.....at least for now.

I hate the idea of "Two Safeties Who Do The Same Thing", especially when both of the safeties can't cover to save their lives. If moving Quinn to FS will make the secondary as a whole better then I'm all for it, but they need to get experienced help back there. I'm not totally in love with the idea of moving around a sophomore to a different position but whatever.

Hardcore Texan
04-30-2011, 03:42 PM
"being an ex-corner" it's a done deal. also means that we are probably getting a vet corner

They better, Quinn is our best corner. That's my only problem with all the talk of moving him to FS. Are we going to march Allen and Kjax out there to start? Doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy.

LikeMike
04-30-2011, 03:53 PM
They better, Quinn is our best corner. That's my only problem with all the talk of moving him to FS. Are we going to march Allen and Kjax out there to start? Doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy.

Having Quinn and KJax/Allen out there with rookies safeties sounds even worse to me... moving Quinn to FS is a good move - we need a veteran CB either way.

Hardcore Texan
04-30-2011, 03:56 PM
Having Quinn and KJax/Allen out there with rookies safeties sounds even worse to me... moving Quinn to FS is a good move - we need a veteran CB either way.

We do need a veteran CB either way. Aso or Taylor would be ideal then yes we have flexibility to move Quinn. But we still won't have experienced safeties even if Quinn moves, it's going to take him some time. And I guess that leaves Barber at SS?

IDEXAN
04-30-2011, 04:59 PM
Quin is the teams top corner on the Texans roster, and they really want to move him to safety ? When's the last time you heard of a team moving it's best tackle to guard, becuase I can't think of an example ? And I do think that's a valid analogy.

The Pencil Neck
04-30-2011, 05:02 PM
Quin is the teams top corner on the Texans roster, and they really want to move him to safety ? When's the last time you heard of a team moving it's best tackle to guard, becuase I can't think of an example ? And I do think that's a valid analogy.

Over the years, there have been corners who've bumped inside (Woodson, for example) and there have been tackles who've bumped inside (Tony Mandarich, lol)... but granted you usually don't do it to your BEST CB/OT.

The idea, though, is to make Quin NOT be our best CB. Pick up somebody like Aso, and moving Quin to FS is an excellent idea. :)

LikeMike
04-30-2011, 05:03 PM
I never really understood, why CB is rated that much higher than S. Is Reevis and Aso really helping their team that much more than Polamalu or Reed? Safeties are in on a lot of plays, while CBs take away the other teams WR...

I think, this team desperately needs saftey help for those corners. I don`t see that much of a difference between Allen, Quinn or Jackson, so Im really fine with Quinn moving to FS, where he can get those other guys some real help, that they were missing whole of last year.

Blake
05-12-2011, 10:39 AM
So what is Pollards future? What is in the Texans future for SS?

drs23
05-12-2011, 11:42 AM
So what is Pollards future? What is in the Texans future for SS?

Well, Bernard got cut loose so my guess is he finds/attempts to find employment elsewhere.

Regarding SS, FA perhaps. I won't be surprised to see Shilo Keo there before it's all said and done. JMO

I'm sure folks more knowlegeable than myself will discuss it further.

El Tejano
05-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Dear Texans Front Office,

You know we want Namdi Asomuagh (sp). You've pretty much have told us no and we are trying to understand. However, getting Eric Weddle would be awesome too and we would be okay even if he's the only FA we get this year. Would it really kill us to put some money up for this guy?

DocBar
05-12-2011, 12:18 PM
Dear Texans Front Office,

You know we want Namdi Asomuagh (sp). You've pretty much have told us no and we are trying to understand. However, getting Eric Weddle would be awesome too and we would be okay even if he's the only FA we get this year. Would it really kill us to put some money up for this guy? In what way has the FO indicated they aren't interested in Aso? I can't see moving Quin to safety as an indicator. Rather the opposite.
FA wish list:
Aso CB
Weddle S
Breaston WR
Leach FB
Butler OT

The Pencil Neck
05-12-2011, 01:49 PM
So what is Pollards future? What is in the Texans future for SS?

I'm sure Pollard ends up somewhere, I just don't know if he'll be a starter unless someone gets injured.

I think we'll get another safety in FA. I think we may get one of the upper tier safeties on the market. Hopefully, we get one of the better CBs in FA, too.

I think that it's important that we don't get too much younger in the defensive backfield. We need more experienced players back there. If we're starting all our rookie DBs along with 2nd and 3rd year DBs... well... I have a bad feeling about that.

Blake
05-12-2011, 02:27 PM
Well, Bernard got cut loose so my guess is he finds/attempts to find employment elsewhere.

Regarding SS, FA perhaps. I won't be surprised to see Shilo Keo there before it's all said and done. JMO

I'm sure folks more knowlegeable than myself will discuss it further.

Thanks. Shiloh Keo as our starting SS? Playing next to our brand new FS Quinn? With 2nd year CB Jackson, and rookie Harris? Good God can we get anymore inexperienced? Is Jason Allen being considered for a starting CB spot? Is he even signed right now?

drs23
05-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Thanks. Shiloh Keo as our starting SS? Playing next to our brand new FS Quinn? With 2nd year CB Jackson, and rookie Harris? Good God can we get anymore inexperienced? Is Jason Allen being considered for a starting CB spot? Is he even signed right now?

SM, I didn't intend to come across as stating that Keo would be our starter on opening day. I really think the FO will be very active in FA once it occurs and aquire a starting calibur safety and CB. I was saying rather that I can forsee him coming along with coaching and practice to be able to work himself into the line up "before it's all said and done" meaning seeing time on the field mid to late season.

RE Jason Allen, I believe seeing in another post that he has one year remaining on his contract IIRC.

badboy
05-12-2011, 06:23 PM
I never really understood, why CB is rated that much higher than S. Is Reevis and Aso really helping their team that much more than Polamalu or Reed? Safeties are in on a lot of plays, while CBs take away the other teams WR...

I think, this team desperately needs saftey help for those corners. I don`t see that much of a difference between Allen, Quinn or Jackson, so Im really fine with Quinn moving to FS, where he can get those other guys some real help, that they were missing whole of last year.Just found your post & want to respond because I am a cornerback junkie. A good "bump and run" or a "Cover or mirror or man (same thing imo) or one that cand do both like Deon Sanders locks down one side of filed and effectively remooves the best WR weapon the opponent has. Asomougha in NFL and Peterson in college are this type of player. A DB coach can move his FS to help the CB on #2 WR (2 players on one) or utilize either the CB or FS to blitz the QB. I expect to see this in Phillips arsenal. You can then use the SS to slide into the box and wrap up a TE or RB and allow your LBs to slam the Olinemen.

Yes an average or rookie CB like Kareem Jackson should have had a FS over the top. This is why Asomougha will get the big bucks. Someone posted on another thread recently that Nnamdi was thrown at only twice in a season. That is astounding!

Theoretically your safeties should never be on a deep pass play.

thunderkyss
05-12-2011, 06:34 PM
Interview with Vance Joseph, article from AJ:
Joseph said: “It’s a split safety defense, so we really want two twins. We want two guys who can tackle. We want two guys who are smart. We want two guys who can cover and have range over top of the zone. Once we find that, that’s the solution."


http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/quin-move-to-safety-appears-to-be-a-done-deal

I'd imagine San Francisco used this system last year (Vance Joseph) & I imagine this is what Dallas used & San Diego before that (Wade)..

does anyone know anything about this "system"? I don't find anything memorable about the safeties of any of those teams.

badboy
05-12-2011, 06:42 PM
I'd imagine San Francisco used this system last year (Vance Jones) & I imagine this is what Dallas used & San Diego before that (Wade)..

does anyone know anything about this "system"? I don't find anything memorable about the safeties of any of those teams.Isn't this the same defensive back system used by Kubiak's DCs prior to last year? Seems like they wanted to very similar safeties and in theory it is great. Two guys with SS strength and tackling abilities with corner speed, fluid hips and back pedals. It is harder to find guys with all those abilities.

PHAROAH
05-15-2011, 07:37 PM
I'm not sold on Quinn as a safety either this guy is borderline of being cut off the roster to me he hasn't shown that he can be a top safety and I know he needs the opportunity but I think that we need to go after someone like Mike Huff who has the range and size to make an impact on the backend of the defense versus a guy who is a serious question mark.

Rey
05-15-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm not sold on Quinn as a safety either this guy is borderline of being cut off the roster to me he hasn't shown that he can be a top safety and I know he needs the opportunity but I think that we need to go after someone like Mike Huff who has the range and size to make an impact on the backend of the defense versus a guy who is a serious question mark.

LMAO off at the bolded...

Too funny...

thunderkyss
05-16-2011, 07:05 AM
I'm not sold on Quinn as a safety either this guy is borderline of being cut off the roster to me he hasn't shown that he can be a top safety and I know he needs the opportunity but I think that we need to go after someone like Mike Huff who has the range and size to make an impact on the backend of the defense versus a guy who is a serious question mark.

In my mind, there is no question that he can play safety. I personally think he is a damn fine corner.... maybe not a number one, definitely a #2.

The Question mark is Kareem Jackson. Can he, or will he ever be elite? A number one?

I think the stakes are too high to go forward with that plan, so we bump him down to number 2, bring in an elite #1. If Jackson turns out to be a #1, great, we'll have two elite CBs at least for a few years. If he turns out to be a #2... great.

If he turns out to be a slot corner, he'll be on another team.

With that thinking, & the realization Quin is the only consistent playmaker we have in the secondary right now, it makes no sense to take him off the field, ever.

So he moves to safety, where he has all the tools & instincts to become elite. IMO, with Quin at safety there is no need to go into a nickle defense, at least not as often as we have in the past, keeping your front 7 on the field more.

badboy
05-16-2011, 08:54 AM
In my mind, there is no question that he can play safety. I personally think he is a damn fine corner.... maybe not a number one, definitely a #2.

The Question mark is Kareem Jackson. Can he, or will he ever be elite? A number one?

I think the stakes are too high to go forward with that plan, so we bump him down to number 2, bring in an elite #1. If Jackson turns out to be a #1, great, we'll have two elite CBs at least for a few years. If he turns out to be a #2... great.

If he turns out to be a slot corner, he'll be on another team.

With that thinking, & the realization Quin is the only consistent playmaker we have in the secondary right now, it makes no sense to take him off the field, ever.

So he moves to safety, where he has all the tools & instincts to become elite. IMO, with Quin at safety there is no need to go into a nickle defense, at least not as often as we have in the past, keeping your front 7 on the field more.There you go. Another reason for Aso is too allow the front 7 to know the WRs will be covered and allow them to disrupt QB. Sacks are great but a non-productive down for any reason is pretty sweet. Quin is not in danger of losing a roster spot and for now is one of the few bright spots. :handshake:

Hervoyel
05-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Two safeties who do the same thing has been the Texans way for years. Of course the same thing they've been doing is "suck" but hey, at least we've been consistent there. From the days of Matt Stevens to the amusing antics of C.C. Brown, and right up to the "What is he trying to do all the way over there?" stylings of Troy Nolan the Texans have been very consistent at safety.

PHAROAH
05-17-2011, 06:43 PM
LMAO off at the bolded...

Too funny...I don't understand why everyone is sold on this guy as a starting safety when he hasn't done it and he was horrible as a corner IMO. The texans had the worst secondary in the NFL and everyone seems to think that this guy will make a great safety and that he is the answer on the backend. Put some game links to prove that he wasn't a problem just like the rest of the secondary. The Texans had arguably the worst secondary in the history of the NFL for 1 season and this guy was beat just like Kareem Jackson was and he cost a us game where he knocked the ball in the WR's hands in a game that the Texans had won. I have never liked Quinn as a player and I still don't and to me I can deal with Kareem Jackson more than Quinn and at least Kareem was a rookie making mistakes please Quinn is a 3rd corner at best.

b0ng
05-17-2011, 07:30 PM
I don't understand why everyone is sold on this guy as a starting safety when he hasn't done it and he was horrible as a corner IMO. The texans had the worst secondary in the NFL and everyone seems to think that this guy will make a great safety and that he is the answer on the backend. Put some game links to prove that he wasn't a problem just like the rest of the secondary. The Texans had arguably the worst secondary in the history of the NFL for 1 season and this guy was beat just like Kareem Jackson was and he cost a us game where he knocked the ball in the WR's hands in a game that the Texans had won. I have never liked Quinn as a player and I still don't and to me I can deal with Kareem Jackson more than Quinn and at least Kareem was a rookie making mistakes please Quinn is a 3rd corner at best.

Jackson had more S help over the top (Which wasn't very good help) while Quin was on an island quite a bit. Nobody is claiming that he is outstanding as a corner, just that he was the best we had (Don't tell me that it was Jason Allen that guy was garbage too). He's got the prototypical size of a FS and he can cover, which is something that we haven't had from the FS position since. . . uh. . . Marlon McCree?

Also, I don't think I've read anybody in this particular thread or anywhere claiming he's going to be fantastic as a safety, it's more about getting the best players on the field in the secondary. The fact that he can is slightly taller and a little heavier than most of our other corners are what most people are pointing at as a sign that he could make the transition.

badboy
05-17-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't understand why everyone is sold on this guy as a starting safety when he hasn't done it and he was horrible as a corner IMO. The texans had the worst secondary in the NFL and everyone seems to think that this guy will make a great safety and that he is the answer on the backend. Put some game links to prove that he wasn't a problem just like the rest of the secondary. The Texans had arguably the worst secondary in the history of the NFL for 1 season and this guy was beat just like Kareem Jackson was and he cost a us game where he knocked the ball in the WR's hands in a game that the Texans had won. I have never liked Quinn as a player and I still don't and to me I can deal with Kareem Jackson more than Quinn and at least Kareem was a rookie making mistakes please Quinn is a 3rd corner at best.IMO all CBs and safeties took a backwards step this past seson. To me that screams coaching and those are now gone. Quin looked good enough @ CB two season ago to start & should have made improvement with better coaching.

Links on Quin http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/glover-quin?id=71441

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=12716 These are not terrible stats.
http://www.golobos.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/quin_glover00.html Good info on college history.

And here is why I think he can play free safety. NFL Draftscout a very reputable college football evaluator had him as FS then CB. He was rated in 2009 as the 7th best FS in nation out of 105.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=72826&draftyear=2009&genpos=CB

Finally, you voice frustration that Quin cost us a game by knocking a pass into the WR arms. We all groaned at that BUT he did exactly what he was supposed to do in that situation and as he was coached. It was a freak play and if you evaluating him on that, I think you are wrong.

He can eventually be a very good if not a lock down corner with better training which we now have. If Phillips believes he can resolve the corners and still move Quin to FS, it could be a huge benefit. At 5'11" 204 lbs and his speed he could be a FS starter for years to come.

thunderkyss
05-18-2011, 07:57 AM
Also, I don't think I've read anybody in this particular thread or anywhere claiming he's going to be fantastic as a safety, it's more about getting the best players on the field in the secondary. The fact that he can is slightly taller and a little heavier than most of our other corners are what most people are pointing at as a sign that he could make the transition.

I have made the claim that I think he can be an elite safety and I stand by that claim.

LikeMike
05-18-2011, 09:22 AM
Just found your post & want to respond because I am a cornerback junkie. A good "bump and run" or a "Cover or mirror or man (same thing imo) or one that cand do both like Deon Sanders locks down one side of filed and effectively remooves the best WR weapon the opponent has. Asomougha in NFL and Peterson in college are this type of player. A DB coach can move his FS to help the CB on #2 WR (2 players on one) or utilize either the CB or FS to blitz the QB. I expect to see this in Phillips arsenal. You can then use the SS to slide into the box and wrap up a TE or RB and allow your LBs to slam the Olinemen.

Yes an average or rookie CB like Kareem Jackson should have had a FS over the top. This is why Asomougha will get the big bucks. Someone posted on another thread recently that Nnamdi was thrown at only twice in a season. That is astounding!

Theoretically your safeties should never be on a deep pass play.

Thanks badboy - but Im still not sold on why a CB is rated higher than a S. Does Revis and Aso really help their teams more than a Polamalu or Ed Reed? Is taking away one big weapon really that much more helpful, than being in on most plays - and getting up to let`s say 10 turnovers a year?

For me, as someone who never played football, it seems like these positions are equally important - but a team usually needs more good CBs than good Ss.

Coming back to the Texans - I think they do have several serviceable #2-#5 CBs, but no #1 corner. The difference between Quinn and Allen/KJax isn`t big, while we don`t really have any serviceable S (I kinda hope we resign Pollard - if utilized correctly and not asked to cover a lot he can be a realy good player for us). Quinn seems to be able to play S, so Im good with the move. We just need to sign a true #1 corner this offseason...

badboy
05-18-2011, 10:27 AM
Thanks badboy - but Im still not sold on why a CB is rated higher than a S. Does Revis and Aso really help their teams more than a Polamalu or Ed Reed? Is taking away one big weapon really that much more helpful, than being in on most plays - and getting up to let`s say 10 turnovers a year?

For me, as someone who never played football, it seems like these positions are equally important - but a team usually needs more good CBs than good Ss.

Coming back to the Texans - I think they do have several serviceable #2-#5 CBs, but no #1 corner. The difference between Quinn and Allen/KJax isn`t big, while we don`t really have any serviceable S (I kinda hope we resign Pollard - if utilized correctly and not asked to cover a lot he can be a realy good player for us). Quinn seems to be able to play S, so Im good with the move. We just need to sign a true #1 corner this offseason...I enjoy your posts. Safeties by design are a "last line" of defense. At least
two corners in most defenses are 1 to 1 with a WR and are your first line of defense. My favorite type corner is known as man on man or cover. I refer to it often as mirror. I forget where I first heard that but for me gives the most accurate description of what I want CB to do; be an exact reflection of the WR's moves. He runs stride for stride with WR and keys his defensive moves or jumps off hints from the opponent's body moves, rarely keying off the QB. The strong safety usually plays off TE or the middle of the box where RBs like to run. If the safety is playing the run, usually he is the last line of defense behind the Dline and your RBs.

Safeties are important as your final stop. Corners are your first stop. Of course, there are always exceptions. The problem with Pollard is he plays more like a strong safety up closer to the line and can't fall back into coverage. That is why Phillips has said he is looking for safeties that can do both like Quin. I never saw SHiloh Keo play but from what others have said and what I saw of him during combine, he can drop back in coverage better than Pollard.

b0ng
05-18-2011, 10:52 AM
I have made the claim that I think he can be an elite safety and I stand by that claim.

Well that's just silly unless you have an intimate knowledge of his skills playing a position I doubt there is much tape of him playing at. I don't mind the change simply because it'd be awfully difficult for him to be much worse than the Wilson/Nolan vomit inducer, but in no way am I assured he's going to be much better than league average.

LikeMike
05-18-2011, 11:02 AM
I enjoy your posts. Safeties by design are a "last line" of defense. At least
two corners in most defenses are 1 to 1 with a WR and are your first line of defense. My favorite type corner is known as man on man or cover. I refer to it often as mirror. I forget where I first heard that but for me gives the most accurate description of what I want CB to do; be an exact reflection of the WR's moves. He runs stride for stride with WR and keys his defensive moves or jumps off hints from the opponent's body moves, rarely keying off the QB. The strong safety usually plays off TE or the middle of the box where RBs like to run. If the safety is playing the run, usually he is the last line of defense behind the Dline and your RBs.

Safeties are important as your final stop. Corners are your first stop. Of course, there are always exceptions. The problem with Pollard is he plays more like a strong safety up closer to the line and can't fall back into coverage. That is why Phillips has said he is looking for safeties that can do both like Quin. I never saw SHiloh Keo play but from what others have said and what I saw of him during combine, he can drop back in coverage better than Pollard.

So, if I understand you correctly: the CBs needs to be more physical gifted and have to keep a play from even happening, while the S is trying to prevent more damage. On the other hand, the S probably needs to think a alot more and have a better vision - and has more of a chance to be a gamechanger.

So the main reason for a CB being regarded higher than a S mainly is, because he needs to be a player with special physical skills and thus is harder to find - while more players would be able to physical play S.

I still don`t know if I would value a CB higher... if you`d ask me whether Id prefer to have Aso or Polamali Id take Polamalu - but that`s because I prefer the exciting play of gamechangers over the complete shutdown of a #1WR and thus making it a 10 vs 10.

badboy
05-18-2011, 11:03 AM
Well that's just silly unless you have an intimate knowledge of his skills playing a position I doubt there is much tape of him playing at. I don't mind the change simply because it'd be awfully difficult for him to be much worse than the Wilson/Nolan vomit inducer, but in no way am I assured he's going to be much better than league average.Bong I think you can watch a corner's moves, reactions, how he places himself on the field and how he works against a WR and determine if he has what it takes to be a safety. In fact, that is exactly what Wade Phillips did to make his decision. Do we know he will be highly successful? No. But we do know Wade took two CBs and no Free Safeties in the draft.

badboy
05-18-2011, 11:13 AM
So, if I understand you correctly: the CBs needs to be more physical gifted and have to keep a play from even happening, while the S is trying to prevent more damage. On the other hand, the S probably needs to think a alot more and have a better vision - and has more of a chance to be a gamechanger.

So the main reason for a CB being regarded higher than a S mainly is, because he needs to be a player with special physical skills and thus is harder to find - while more players would be able to physical play S.

I still don`t know if I would value a CB higher... if you`d ask me whether Id prefer to have Aso or Polamali Id take Polamalu - but that`s because I prefer the exciting play of gamechangers over the complete shutdown of a #1WR and thus making it a 10 vs 10.Well not exactly. You& I have different views. I don't see a safety being a game changer in NFL (maybe more so in college with INTs). The SS may have a hard hit to knock ball loose for a recovery and a FS may intercept if CB is out of play, but I think over all the corner is much more likely to be a game changer than a safety. I do not know of a saftey taking a player out of the game (other than injury) while ASO regularly eliminates a WR.

If a GM's team needed both a safety and a #1 CB, all 32 GMs take Asomougha over Polamalu if all other positons are filled with good players. I think you are talking about personal likes.

You in a baseball analogy would prefer a very good defensive right fielder. I prefer a very good short stop.

LikeMike
05-18-2011, 11:25 AM
Well not exactly. You& I have different views. I don't see a safety being a game changer in NFL (maybe more so in college with INTs). The SS may have a hard hit to knock ball loose for a recovery and a FS may intercept if CB is out of play, but I think over all the corner is much more likely to be a game changer than a safety. I do not know of a saftey taking a player out of the game (other than injury) while ASO regularly eliminates a WR.

If a GM's team needed both a safety and a #1 CB, all 32 GMs take Asomougha over Polamalu if all other positons are filled with good players. I think you are talking about personal likes.

You in a baseball analogy would prefer a very good defensive right fielder. I prefer a very good short stop.

Well I never played football so I guess I have to go after personal likes because I don`t know better ;-). To me it seems like a safety makes everybody around him better - while a CB is more of a lone wolf. Sure, he makes it easier for the others, because they can concentrate on the rest of the field, but in the end it is him against the WR. And thus a safety helps actively on a lot more plays than the CB.

But I guess I just undervalue taking out the #1 WR and overvalue the flashy plays. I mean I know that CBs are regarded higher than Ss.

Oh, and about that baseball analogy - I don`t like or follow baseball, but if Id have to choose, Id take the short stop ;-).

And in the end, I guess the conclusion is: put Quinn at FS and sign Aso, right?

badboy
05-18-2011, 12:09 PM
Well I never played football so I guess I have to go after personal likes because I don`t know better ;-). To me it seems like a safety makes everybody around him better - while a CB is more of a lone wolf. Sure, he makes it easier for the others, because they can concentrate on the rest of the field, but in the end it is him against the WR. And thus a safety helps actively on a lot more plays than the CB.

But I guess I just undervalue taking out the #1 WR and overvalue the flashy plays. I mean I know that CBs are regarded higher than Ss.

Oh, and about that baseball analogy - I don`t like or follow baseball, but if Id have to choose, Id take the short stop ;-).

And in the end, I guess the conclusion is: put Quinn at FS and sign Aso, right?
Just returned from lunch, sorry about the delay. I like the analogy about the lone wolf. Safeties are a part of many more plays that a corner; a helper if you will and should have many more tackles. I compare this to a left guard who should have more blocks than a LT who goes against the opponents best DE. A LT although usually blocking only one player is much more important than the LG.
A left tackle can usually play right tackle, right guard or left guard. Rarely can a guard play left tackle. Which do you see more often, a touchdown through the middle or a TD by a WR? Overwhelmingly it will be the WR. To negate the more common TD, you bring in a TD stopper.

Yes, Quin @ FS and ASO at CB. I see Allen or my guy Brandon Harris at the #2CB with the other sliding to nickle. KJ has to work his way on to field with the others. I have him slightly ahead of Carmichael only because he has one year NFL experience.

b0ng
05-18-2011, 12:20 PM
Bong I think you can watch a corner's moves, reactions, how he places himself on the field and how he works against a WR and determine if he has what it takes to be a safety. In fact, that is exactly what Wade Phillips did to make his decision. Do we know he will be highly successful? No. But we do know Wade took two CBs and no Free Safeties in the draft.

I don't mind the change simply because it'd be awfully difficult for him to be much worse than the Wilson/Nolan vomit inducer, but in no way am I assured he's going to be much better than league average.

I think we pretty much agree even if the reasoning is different?

badboy
05-18-2011, 02:09 PM
I think we pretty much agree even if the reasoning is different?You see Quin at best as an average FS. I see him average at worst case scenario. I am much more concerned about our SS and #1 CB than FS.

badboy
05-22-2011, 09:35 PM
If Quin and KJ can have rebound years under Wade Phillips, the defense will be so much better.

Carr Bombed
05-23-2011, 04:31 PM
If Quin and KJ can have rebound years under Wade Phillips, the defense will be so much better.

:) Doesn't Kareem Jackson need to "bound" towards something first before he can rebound? He still needs to prove he can cut it in this league...at least Quin had some success early on.

thunderkyss
05-23-2011, 06:34 PM
:) Doesn't Kareem Jackson need to "bound" towards something first before he can rebound? He still needs to prove he can cut it in this league...at least Quin had some success early on.

I think both Kareem & Quin are taking the brunt of this league worse pass defense undeservedly. Sure, Quin had a bone headed play..... & yeah, KJac got schooled.

But their overall body of work on an individual basis was pretty solid. For where they were drafted, their individual performance was up to par.

Neither were major factors (they were both factors) to the poor results we saw on the field, which is why they are both still on the team & both are slotted to start.

I understand this is not the popular opinion here, but I predict many people here will be shocked about the vast improvement they'll see in KJac when in actuality it should be expected given his steady improvement as the year progressed.

There wasn't anything in his play to lead anyone to believe he'll be a star in this league, or that he'll live up to his 1st round slot (late first round), but you can definitely see the boy's got skills & talent.

Brandon420tx
05-23-2011, 10:00 PM
I must spread Rep Tkiss

Allstar
05-23-2011, 11:45 PM
He should talk to Antrel Rolle about the transition. that was seamless.

badboy
05-24-2011, 12:03 AM
:) Doesn't Kareem Jackson need to "bound" towards something first before he can rebound? He still needs to prove he can cut it in this league...at least Quin had some success early on.My opinion on both players you mention has been posted on threads & I don't mean to be repetitive. I have been a fan of Quin since he was drafted. Kid played way over his head imo. It actually hurt his growth when team cut the veteran Reeves. I think Cosby was lost at times with no more experienced DB to assist him. There was virtually no over the top support for him or KJ either.

Jackson was a guy that was the wrong type player and he was given no help from coaching staff. If we had a good FS last year, Jackson's goofs would not have been anywhere near as bad. We were lucky QBs did not light him up and I never understood why 100 balls were not thrown at him. I would have made two out of three plays a pass against him. AT least he has been through the fire as Kubiak said & we will see if that benefits him and it just might. He needs to be switched from bump & run to more of a cover type. His biggest benefit will be if he can eliminate that psychological 1 second lapse when he realizes he has been beaten & then goes into correction mode. I am hopeful the new DB coach makes me look like a genius & turns this kid around. KJ has size/speed if used correctly to be a very good if not great CB. I am going to agree with TK's comments.

Harris should nail down the nickle and could beat out KJ. In fact, if I am wrong and KJ can not be re-modeled, keep your eyes on Sherrick McManis (I want to see a lot more of him to see what his skills are) and on Roc Carmichael. The latter could develop into a star.

Corner, FS and Strong are still question marks imo although I'm hopeful. I am planning at drafting at least one more CB and a FS on my 2012 mock. I know many are against that but we have to get quality players in the backfield.

steelbtexan
05-26-2011, 09:22 AM
I think both Kareem & Quin are taking the brunt of this league worse pass defense undeservedly. Sure, Quin had a bone headed play..... & yeah, KJac got schooled.

But their overall body of work on an individual basis was pretty solid. For where they were drafted, their individual performance was up to par.

Neither were major factors (they were both factors) to the poor results we saw on the field, which is why they are both still on the team & both are slotted to start.

I understand this is not the popular opinion here, but I predict many people here will be shocked about the vast improvement they'll see in KJac when in actuality it should be expected given his steady improvement as the year progressed.

There wasn't anything in his play to lead anyone to believe he'll be a star in this league, or that he'll live up to his 1st round slot (late first round), but you can definitely see the boy's got skills & talent.

Great post

Hope you're right. The only 2 things that bother me about KJ are

1. Wade spoke about his lack of speed. This makes me think he will max out as a nickle CB.

2. KJ's uncanny ability to fall down at the worst possible times. Thank god Rick and Gary aren't making calls on defensive draft picks anymore.

steelbtexan
05-26-2011, 09:30 AM
You see Quin at best as an average FS. I see him average at worst case scenario. I am much more concerned about our SS and #1 CB than FS.

Agreed,

And he cant be worse than Wilson/Pollard were last yr in coverage. Plus Quin seems to be a solid tackler. Which would also be an improvement over last yr.

Rey
05-26-2011, 10:33 AM
Anybody think wades critiques on certain players is his way of indirectly communicating with them and letting them know what they need to work on during the lock out.

The Pencil Neck
05-26-2011, 11:47 AM
Anybody think wades critiques on certain players is his way of indirectly communicating with them and letting them know what they need to work on during the lock out.

First off, let me just say that my wife made me do this... but...

A couple of weeks ago, I was watching Dancing With The Stars and who was in the audience? Wade freaking Phillips.

There are a lot of NFL related people at these DWTS things now because of all the NFL players who've participated in DWTS. But Wade Phillips?

I'm wondering how many different ways players and coaches are communicating.

El Tejano
05-26-2011, 12:56 PM
Anybody think wades critiques on certain players is his way of indirectly communicating with them and letting them know what they need to work on during the lock out.

I mentioned this in another thread. I believe the Mario to OLB thread but I forget.

I wouldn't put it past him. I mean we are getting a ton more information from an organization that has a rep for keeping things very close to the vest and it's all on the side of the ball that has the most change going on.

badboy
05-26-2011, 01:20 PM
First off, let me just say that my wife made me do this... but...

A couple of weeks ago, I was watching Dancing With The Stars and who was in the audience? Wade freaking Phillips.

There are a lot of NFL related people at these DWTS things now because of all the NFL players who've participated in DWTS. But Wade Phillips?

I'm wondering how many different ways players and coaches are communicating.If Wade was actually performing on stage, I'd feel much better. He could choreograph in each dance how he expects certain players to perform. For Kareem Jackson, Wade would dance "off" his partner so as not to "bump" and then fall down. For Mario, Wade could put on some break dance moves using hands down or up. For Barwin, Phillips could do a little dance with a limp...

For Asomugha, he :spin: and then holds both hands palm up chest high as in "who knows?"

CloakNNNdagger
06-03-2011, 09:29 PM
Can Quinn really become a shark?

The Sharks of the NFL: Safeties (http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2011/6/1/2201968/the-sharks-of-the-nfl-safeties) by Douglas M on Jun 1, 2011 8:58 PM CDT

There is something that lurks behind the defensive line of an NFL team. No, not them...Farther back, behind the linebackers, is where the sharks of the NFL exist. Like a shadow that passes beneath a boat out at sea, it makes you think twice before jumping in unless the boat is sinking. The sharks of the NFL come in the form of a Safety. Without exception they are amazing athletes. To me the NFL safety is, pound for pound, the best all-round athlete on the football field. They also have very sharp teeth. If Richard Dreyfus had been a wide receiver about to run a route over the middle, upon seeing Ronnie Lott or Aeneas Williams, he'd say "I think we need a bigger boat..."

The very best safeties cast an aura covering the middle of the field. Whether the Steeler's Troy Polamalu of today or Ed Meador of the Rams of old, a quarterback, running back or wide receiver can feel the loom of their dark eyes watching, and a large fin cutting through players toward them. This the NFL safety.

A safety has to have the intellect and eyes of a quarterback. He has to SEE the field. Just as a quarterback reads a defense, the safety reads the offense. He must split his concentration between wide receivers and running backs. He has to track his own team's cornerbacks in man coverage to aide them on deep routes and secure his portion of the field in a zone.

Legends like Paul Krause, who had 81 career INTs with the Viking. Larry Wilson changed the position of safety into the all round weapon it is today with St. Louis Cardinals. Nolan Cromwell of the Rams, who may have been the greatest all round athlete at the position, was elected by Hall of Fame members to the 1980s All Decade Team. Steve Atwater of the Denver Broncos is possibly the hardest hitting safety of all-time. Wide receivers from his era still hear his footsteps in their dreams. Then of course there is Ronnie Lott, considered by many the greatest to ever play the position. A punishing tackler, his intensity for the game was unmatched in any football era. He had an extraordinary career that included 63 INTs with the 49ers, Raiders and Jets.

The Rams have had scores of greats defensive players throughout their history, quite a few of them at the safety position.

Go back to the days of the "Fearsome Foursome" defense and have a quick look at Ed Meador (Rams 1959-70).Ed was what met you if you were lucky enough to get past one of the greatest defensive front fours of all-time. Just when you thought it was safe, Ed Meador hit you so hard you wanted to go back and kick Deacon Jones for letting you get by. Six times All-Pro and elected to the 1960s All Decade team, Meador is destined to make the Hall of Fame one day.

Nolan Cromwell (Rams 1977-87) was one of those athletes that come along once or twice a generation. Read this old Sports Illustrated article when you get the time. You'll read about not just a NFL free safety, but an amazing guy. Three times All-Pro first team and four times a Pro Bowl member, Nolan was known for having a sixth sense when it came to being around the ball (37 career INTs, returning them for 671 yards, an 18.1 yard average).

Dave Elmendorf (Rams1971-79) and Bill Simpson (Rams 1974-78, Bills 1980-82) may be the greatest safety duos in Ram history, combining for 40 INTs between 1974 and 1978.

Aenaes Williams came to the Rams (2001-04) after playing cornerback for the Arizona Cardinals (1991-2000). When he arrived on the Ram's scene he learned the free safety position. Many will remember his biggest Ram moment in the playoff game against Green Bay before Super Bowl XXXVI. He intercepted Brett Farve twice, returning both for touchdowns and recovering a fumble.

O.J Atogwe, drafted in the third round in 2005 out of Stanford, just moved on to the Washington Redskins. Not before making a mark on a Ram team that had very little to celebrate during his tenure with the team. His 22 INTs, along with great leadership, were a shining part in an otherwise cloomy sky till last season. It must have frustrated him to be moving on just as the Rams began to pull things together? I think this move by the Rams is about to go into the: Oops!-book

The safety really hasn't changed much over the decades. All positions in the NFL seem to have evolved into players who are bigger and faster than their earlier counter parts: Except safeties. The size and speed hasn't really changed that much. The players at this position are selected for aptitude, agressiveness and having a nose for the ball.

All you have to do to be an NFL safety is to have an affinity for...


http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=959866547211&id=3c5549c72e0cb6ded90d51146b0c80fb

badboy
06-03-2011, 09:52 PM
Great article and I enjoyed the read. Thanks CND! I hoping Quin will be a "bull" shark! Get it?

DocBar
06-03-2011, 09:53 PM
Leave it to the Texans to field a bunch of guppies for 9 years. :cool: