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View Full Version : Rick Smith Open to Trading Up...


MFG16
04-26-2011, 04:28 PM
Link: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7537921.html

Also stated the team was interested in re-signing Vonta Leach.

ArlingtonTexan
04-26-2011, 04:55 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Texans-GM-Rick-Smith-press-conference/58cae421-7621-4cc4-9eb3-9a0fcb2d15cd

Entire press conference.

HOU-TEX
04-26-2011, 05:05 PM
He also said he was open to trading back. We could probably watch last year's pre-draft PC and come away with the same info

MojoMan
04-26-2011, 05:06 PM
I heard a little bit of this earlier. The one interesting comment that Rick Smith made during this press conference was in response to a question about the priority of drafting someone who could return kicks. Smith said that it was not a priority, as the Texans already have an excellent kick returner on the team - Trindon Holliday.

That was a bit of a surprise, as Holliday did not really impress during preseason last year before he was injured. However, it appears that the team has high hopes for him.

Carr Bombed
04-26-2011, 05:22 PM
I heard a little bit of this earlier. The one interesting comment that Rick Smith made during this press conference was in response to a question about the priority of drafting someone who could return kicks. Smith said that it was not a priority, as the Texans already have an excellent kick returner on the team - Trindon Holliday.

That was a bit of a surprise, as Holliday did not really impress during preseason last year before he was injured. However, it appears that the team has high hopes for him.

:rolleyes: If it doesn't work, try and try again. LOL that's how this entire organization operates.

Wolf6151
04-26-2011, 05:29 PM
He also said he was open to trading back. We could probably watch last year's pre-draft PC and come away with the same info

Agreed, we could probably watch the press conference from 4 yrs. ago and get the same info. Of course their open to trading up, down, sideways, etc... There's no news here.

dalemurphy
04-26-2011, 05:32 PM
I'm encouraged to hear that they have made some changes to their approach this season. That's good.

I'm also encouraged that he brought up the 2009 draft, specifically, as an example of how not drafting for need worked out well for the team: Arian Foster was an UDFA. I say this because, with FA occurring after the draft, I have been terrified that the Texans will attempt to solve their secondary and LB problems through the draft and reach for those need positions instead of drafting for value. In turn, afterwards, they will see less need to add talent in FA because of all the resources they just spent at those positions.

Frankly, I would be ecstatic if the Texans didn't draft a single DB in the draft, though I know many on these boards would be ripping them for it. To me, it would signal that they are determined to fill those holes through a very rich free agent market.

IBleedTexans
04-26-2011, 05:39 PM
I heard a little bit of this earlier. The one interesting comment that Rick Smith made during this press conference was in response to a question about the priority of drafting someone who could return kicks. Smith said that it was not a priority, as the Texans already have an excellent kick returner on the team - Trindon Holliday.

That was a bit of a surprise, as Holliday did not really impress during preseason last year before he was injured. However, it appears that the team has high hopes for him.

Well I remember in training camp he looked really good. I know it was only practice but his speed was undeniable. I think Holliday has the best shot to become the number 1 kr.

MojoMan
04-26-2011, 05:47 PM
Well I remember in training camp he looked really good. I know it was only practice but his speed was undeniable. I think Holliday has the best shot to become the number 1 kr.

That is not what I remember at all. He was having real difficulties trying to establish himself as a viable backup wide receiver. And as a kick returner, he dropped the ball - a lot.

In any case, he was injured all last year and was on injured reserve. Certainly there is no reason not to bring him into training camp this year and give him another chance.

Regardless of his performance in training camp last year, I hope Rick Smith is right. Good luck, Trindon!

DocBar
04-26-2011, 05:54 PM
I heard a little bit of this earlier. The one interesting comment that Rick Smith made during this press conference was in response to a question about the priority of drafting someone who could return kicks. Smith said that it was not a priority, as the Texans already have an excellent kick returner on the team - Trindon Holliday.

That was a bit of a surprise, as Holliday did not really impress during preseason last year before he was injured. However, it appears that the team has high hopes for him.If we resign Andre Davis, he'll be dedicated to KR. Lord knows he hasn't done much as a receiver. Holliday is like Eric Metcalf. A sawed off little water bug that may or may not pan out. At least we didn't spend much on Holliday if he pans. I wish him the best, though. I hope he becomes the all-time leader in KR for TD's while wearing a Texans uniform.

mokalus
04-26-2011, 05:56 PM
I'm encouraged to hear that they have made some changes to their approach this season. That's good.

I'm also encouraged that he brought up the 2009 draft, specifically, as an example of how not drafting for need worked out well for the team: Arian Foster was an UDFA. I say this because, with FA occurring after the draft, I have been terrified that the Texans will attempt to solve their secondary and LB problems through the draft and reach for those need positions instead of drafting for value. In turn, afterwards, they will see less need to add talent in FA because of all the resources they just spent at those positions.

Frankly, I would be ecstatic if the Texans didn't draft a single DB in the draft, though I know many on these boards would be ripping them for it. To me, it would signal that they are determined to fill those holes through a very rich free agent market.

I'm not sure if "ecstatic" is the right word to use here, but I see what you're getting at. IMO, unless we can trade up for Peterson or land Prince, I would want the team to focus on drafting for other positions. However, Texans history has not suggested that they will be willing to spend a lot of money on a top-tier free agent; in fact, it's just the opposite. So, in essence, I'm not getting my hopes up that they will pay Champ or Aso, but if they're not drafting a DB like Peterson or Prince in round 1, I'd rather the team sign a veteran DB to a reasonable contract.

With that said, I have to admit it'd be a very tough decision to not draft Julio Jones if he's still available at #11. I'm just not completely sold on Aldon Smith... but since there's such a need at that position, I guess I'd be okay with the Texans taking that risk.

Still can't believe it's time for the NFL Draft already.

IDEXAN
04-26-2011, 06:00 PM
Smith said "if he believes it's a reasonable deal that will help the team",
he would trade up. Well of course he should in that scenario, otherwise he should be fired by McNair for dereliction of obligations as McNairs GM if he didn't.
But you guys who love Von Miller can forget about Smith moving up for him - too expensive. But I think there's a chance they move up to swap their first round pick along with their 4th rounder and maybe their 6th or 7th with Dallas to take Robert Quinn if he's there at the 9th pick.

Thorn
04-26-2011, 06:01 PM
Whatever plans the Texans (any of them) might have will probably change once others have drafted before and after them. I'm not looking for any big suprise Thursday night. In fact, if anything other than they use their 11th pick on a defensive player happens I'd be shocked.

Of course it's not like the Texans haven't shocked me before, but it's normally not a happy shock.

DocBar
04-26-2011, 06:03 PM
Whatever plans the Texans (any of them) might have will probably change once others have drafted before and after them. I'm not looking for any big suprise Thursday night. In fact, if anything other than they use their 11th pick on a defensive player happens I'd be shocked.

Of course it's not like the Texans haven't shocked me before, but it's normally not a happy shock.I hope they shock the hell out of you and trade up for Miller. Keep your nitro handy. :fingergun:

DocBar
04-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Smith said "if he believes it's a reasonable deal that will help the team",
he would trade up. Well of course he should in that scenario, otherwise he should be fired by McNair for dereliction of obligations as McNairs GM if he didn't.
But you guys who love Von Miller can forget about Smith moving up for him - too expensive. But I think there's a chance they move up to swap their first round pick along with their 4th rounder and maybe their 6th or 7th with Dallas to take Robert Quinn if he's there at the 9th pick.Thanks for crapping on my heart. I hope you pee the bed tonite.

TexanSam
04-26-2011, 07:33 PM
If we resign Andre Davis, he'll be dedicated to KR. Lord knows he hasn't done much as a receiver. Holliday is like Eric Metcalf. A sawed off little water bug that may or may not pan out. At least we didn't spend much on Holliday if he pans. I wish him the best, though. I hope he becomes the all-time leader in KR for TD's while wearing a Texans uniform.

I see no reason to resign Andre Davis. He's a mediocre at best receiver and a terrible kick returner. He had that game a few years back when he returned two kicks for TD's and the Texans then signed him for more than he's worth.

Ryan
04-26-2011, 07:58 PM
John Clayton and Todd McShay were spewing lots of stuff on how the Texans might be interested in trading up to #5 for Patrick Peterson if he's still there. Apparently we have a crush on him.

Rey
04-26-2011, 08:03 PM
Texans need to get Peterson or Miller.

Then they need to hit on all their mid round draft picks.

Corrosion
04-26-2011, 08:13 PM
John Clayton and Todd McShay were spewing lots of stuff on how the Texans might be interested in trading up to #5 for Patrick Peterson if he's still there. Apparently we have a crush on him.

Peterson is the best prospect in the entire draft .... I sure wouldnt mind them trading up to get him.

I havent heard anything about the team having a crush on him ..... I do know they like Miller. To get him would take a big move up , not so sure they would be willing to pay the price to get to pick 2-3.

Jackie Chiles
04-26-2011, 08:52 PM
Peterson is the best prospect in the entire draft .... I sure wouldnt mind them trading up to get him.

I havent heard anything about the team having a crush on him ..... I do know they like Miller. To get him would take a big move up , not so sure they would be willing to pay the price to get to pick 2-3.

I might be in the minority on this one but if we come out of this draft with Peterson or Miller and a couple late round picks I would still be excited. I think in this system Miller could be a hof caliber player and Peterson could be one in any system. Not having a 2nd/3rd/4th/etc would suck because the anticipation and excitement of that 2nd round pick can be almost as good as the 1st rounder but I will be floating on cloud 9 if we trade up for either of these guys.

gary
04-26-2011, 09:05 PM
I might be in the minority on this one but if we come out of this draft with Peterson or Miller and a couple late round picks I would still be excited. I think in this system Miller could be a hof caliber player and Peterson could be one in any system. Not having a 2nd/3rd/4th/etc would suck because the anticipation and excitement of that 2nd round pick can be almost as good as the 1st rounder but I will be floating on cloud 9 if we trade up for either of these guys.I'll be floating right next to you on cloud number 10 so wave at me.

dalemurphy
04-26-2011, 09:49 PM
Texans need to get Peterson or Miller.

Then they need to hit on all their mid round draft picks.

If we trade up for Miller or Peterson, we aren't going to have mid round picks.

Corrosion
04-26-2011, 09:58 PM
If we trade up for Miller or Peterson, we aren't going to have mid round picks.

I'd rather have one great player out of the draft than a handful of guy's who contribute.

This franchise hasnt taken many chances .... always the safe solution.

steelbtexan
04-26-2011, 11:01 PM
I'd rather have one great player out of the draft than a handful of guy's who contribute.

This franchise hasnt taken many chances .... always the safe solution.

Yep

If he drop to the 5-7 range I would give up a 1st/ 2/ 2012 2nd for Peterson or Miller.

Great players change games and help teams get over the 7-9,9-7 hump and Peterson/Miller are great players. IMHO

dalemurphy
04-27-2011, 12:07 AM
I'd rather have one great player out of the draft than a handful of guy's who contribute.

This franchise hasnt taken many chances .... always the safe solution.


The question is, "are the odds better of getting one great player with multiple picks or better with very few picks but a high selection?" Based on research I have done, I'd much rather have the multiple picks.

Remember Mike Ditka trading away his draft for Ricky Williams? How about the Falcons trading up for Vick? the Chargers were able to draft Drew Brees and L. Tomlinson simply by dropping a few spots in the draft.

... There are, of course, examples that support your thesis as well. However, I think the risk of lost picks is too great, especially when we have a number of gaping holes at positions that could be significantly upgraded with middle round picks (NT, Safety, speedy WR). Even the history of the OLB in the 3-4 seems to support the idea of dropping in the draft. Most of the speed rushers drafted in the top 10 in order to convert to a 3-4 have been busts. Meanwhile, the list of elite players at that position lower in the draft is abnormally long.

Tx Longhorn
04-27-2011, 12:44 AM
Peterson is the best prospect in the entire draft .... I sure wouldnt mind them trading up to get him.

Likewise, and I think he's the one player in this draft that can really help the Texans win NOW. I often don't say that about draft picks, but I feel Peterson is a guy who will not only be a long term regular Pro Bowler, but for a team right on the cusp like Houston could be the difference maker.

Frankly, if it's a third and fourth to swap places with Arizona and get Peterson, I think that's worth investing in.

I'm in the "trade up for Peterson or trade down" crowd.

Jackie Chiles
04-27-2011, 02:24 AM
Likewise, and I think he's the one player in this draft that can really help the Texans win NOW. I often don't say that about draft picks, but I feel Peterson is a guy who will not only be a long term regular Pro Bowler, but for a team right on the cusp like Houston could be the difference maker.

Frankly, if it's a third and fourth to swap places with Arizona and get Peterson, I think that's worth investing in.

I'm in the "trade up for Peterson or trade down" crowd.

No one is giving up Peterson without at least an additional 2nd rounder. If not from us it will come from another team. I don't have a problem with it but I could see how people might not be down with that. If you hope to get him without giving up our 2nd plus additional resources you are probably setting yourself up to be disappointed if indeed we pull off that trade. Gotta give something to get something. Just my opinion.

Lucky
04-27-2011, 07:01 AM
Put the 49ers in the mix to trade up for Peterson. According to a local source, Peterson is atop the Niners draft board (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/21/an-educated-guess-at-the-49ers-2011-draft-board/) and they have the ammo (12 draft picks) to make a move to grab him.

HoustonFrog
04-27-2011, 08:20 AM
If anyone interested here is the same thing that was in the draft forum from the other night. Same discussion.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81327

BigBull17
04-27-2011, 08:22 AM
I heard a little bit of this earlier. The one interesting comment that Rick Smith made during this press conference was in response to a question about the priority of drafting someone who could return kicks. Smith said that it was not a priority, as the Texans already have an excellent kick returner on the team - Trindon Holliday.

That was a bit of a surprise, as Holliday did not really impress during preseason last year before he was injured. However, it appears that the team has high hopes for him.

Smith falls in love with his picks. Doesn't surprise me in the least bit. I am so worried that no matter what we do, trade up, trade back, or stand pat, Smith will **** it up.

BigBull17
04-27-2011, 08:23 AM
Put the 49ers in the mix to trade up for Peterson. According to a local source, Peterson is atop the Niners draft board (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/21/an-educated-guess-at-the-49ers-2011-draft-board/) and they have the ammo (12 draft picks) to make a move to grab him.

Good clean fun, in 07, Wilis was my favorite player and we blew it. Niners got him. This year, Peterson is my favorite player, and a useless win puts us behind them. They will nab him too.

HoustonFrog
04-27-2011, 08:41 AM
Just read on Rotoworld that The falcons want to make a huge jump into the Top 10 to grab one of the 2 WRs. That may push guys down. I honestly think that keeping the 8-12 picks is smart this draft because there are going to be guys there who can play and some teams may give up their draft for some Top 10 guys.

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/203376/football-headlines?r=1

SI.com's Peter King reports the Falcons are attempting to trade into the top-10 for a shot at "explosive outside threats" A.J. Green and Julio Jones.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution suggested a month ago that GM Thomas Dimitroff would knock on the Browns' door at No. 6 if Green was still on the board. King considers the deal a longshot, however, presumably because there's too much ground to cover between the Falcons' No. 27 pick and the top-10. It's no surprise that a smart GM like Dimitroff would see a contending roster with several key players aging, and aggressively target a difference-maker as the missing ingredient.

SheTexan
04-27-2011, 12:32 PM
John Clayton and Todd McShay were spewing lots of stuff on how the Texans might be interested in trading up to #5 for Patrick Peterson if he's still there. Apparently we have a crush on him.

I have a crush on him! Does that count? ;) He's AWESOME!!!

Rey
04-27-2011, 12:39 PM
If we trade up for Miller or Peterson, we aren't going to have mid round picks.

No way you could possibly know that.

b0ng
04-27-2011, 12:42 PM
I'd much rather trade future picks (and god players to trade would be nice too) to move up but that's me. I mean, we all like to think that this is possibly Smithiaks last ride for the Texans, and if that is the case, then why not morgage 2012 to get somebody the Texans fans actually want? No? Okay then.

Rey
04-27-2011, 12:48 PM
The question is, "are the odds better of getting one great player with multiple picks.

This regime rarely has second round or later picks that come in and immediately make significant contributions. If this regime had built had been successful for the most part then I'd be ok with that. But they have overall sucked and they need to win yesterday. I want them to win yesterday. Putting a bunch of tomatoes in the window and waiting for them to get ripe isn't going to help us with getting dinner tonight. I'm hungry. . .I'm ready to eat

infantrycak
04-27-2011, 12:54 PM
This regime rarely has second round or later picks that come in and immediately make significant contributions.

DeMeco
Schaub
Schaub
Barwin
Tate

I'd say three minimum were immediate impact picks with Barwin having a significant impact in exactly the role he was drafted for (situational pass rusher) and Tate never getting a chance.

Rey
04-27-2011, 01:06 PM
DeMeco
Schaub
Schaub
Barwin
Tate

I'd say three minimum were immediate impact picks with Barwin having a significant impact in exactly the role he was drafted for (situational pass rusher) and Tate never getting a chance.

Demeco and barwin. I dont count schaub as a draft pick but if you do, ok.

But I said second rd or later. We have done ok with the second round picks we have used, but it's not like we've had a bunch of mid round picks come in and make big contributions from day one if at all.

barrett
04-27-2011, 01:21 PM
We've assigned trade values to certain Texans players if you guys want to take a stab at making a deal. (http://www.texansbullblog.com/tbb-readers-clock/featured-articles/)

Using the trade value chart and these values that I've assigned to the 5 most realistic tradable players, can you make a deal?

Trade up, trade down, whatever you like. The only rule with trades is that you have to abide by the trade value chart:


http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt343/mactrave69/Tradechartvalue.jpg

You can get creative. As we discussed yesterday, using players on the roster to increase trade value will be allowed. I’m going to include the five players that could garner trade interest under the following assumptions:

Judge Nelson will deny the League’s request for a stay and the league year will be in place come draft time. (Even though it already is technically… sort of.)

The highly organized League will reinstate 2010 rules making 4 year players restricted and thus, Jacoby Jones eligible for trade.

Your trade partners will want the players you offer them. (I’m not going to police this but refrain from sending Okoye or Williams to another 3-4 team etc..)

If you trade players currently on the roster, pick from these five and stick to the following trade values that I have assigned to them. (For the purposes of this experiment, I’m going to use our pick position to assign a value to the players.)

Mario Williams = (two first round picks or 2,500 points) – Mario is easily the most valuable trade player currently on the roster but keep in mind that if you trade him you’re leaving a gaping hole in the defense.

“Open” Daniels = (2nd and a 4th or 564 points) – Possibly one of the best TE’s in the league, injuries have slowed both his legs and his value. Is his talent scheme based?

Ben Tate = (4th round or 84 points) Tate was a 2nd round pick in 2010 but his broken fibula hurts his value.

Amobi Okoye = (5th rounder or 37 points) I’m going with the Travis Johnson model but I’m giving Amobi the 5th round conditional instead of the 6th based on the fact that he’s been healthier than Johnson was.

Jacoby Jones = (2nd rounder or 480 points) Jacoby was tendered at a second round level back in March. I’m going with that even though I’d be willing to bet that the Texans would part with him for a 3rd.

Please be as detailed as possible in your explinations.

Okay! Have at it! YOU are on the clock!

http://www.texansbullblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Goodell-Draft-hw.jpg

GuerillaBlack
04-27-2011, 01:45 PM
Good clean fun, in 07, Wilis was my favorite player and we blew it. Niners got him. This year, Peterson is my favorite player, and a useless win puts us behind them. They will nab him too.

Though the useless win against the Jags definitely hurts th Texans a lot now, I don't think Arizona will trade with the 49ers. And no team in the top four will drop out, IMO.

DocBar
04-27-2011, 01:51 PM
Trade Daniels(564), Okoye(84), Jones(480), our 3rd round pick(215) and swap 1st round picks(1250) to move up to #3 and take either Miller or Peterson, whoever is left. If both are on the board, I take Miller.
We have another good receiving TE in Casey, we can do without Okoye anyways and Jones is just too hit and miss for me. It's feast or famine with him and I'd rather have a steady diet and try to sign Moss as a vet FA.
If neither is left, that means Dareus is, so it's a win any way you look at it.
Buffalo could use the help at all three spots and still get the help they need at 11 while saving some $$ by not having to sign a top 5 pick.
:fans:

Houston_Fanatic
04-27-2011, 02:37 PM
I see no reason to resign Andre Davis. He's a mediocre at best receiver and a terrible kick returner. He had that game a few years back when he returned two kicks for TD's and the Texans then signed him for more than he's worth.

And those two kicks for TD's were against Jacksonville's scrubs since they had clinched a playoff spot and pulled most of their starters....... I see no reason to resign Andre Davis, either.

dalemurphy
04-27-2011, 02:42 PM
Trade Daniels(564), Okoye(84), Jones(480), our 3rd round pick(215) and swap 1st round picks(1250) to move up to #3 and take either Miller or Peterson, whoever is left. If both are on the board, I take Miller.
We have another good receiving TE in Casey, we can do without Okoye anyways and Jones is just too hit and miss for me. It's feast or famine with him and I'd rather have a steady diet and try to sign Moss as a vet FA.
If neither is left, that means Dareus is, so it's a win any way you look at it.
Buffalo could use the help at all three spots and still get the help they need at 11 while saving some $$ by not having to sign a top 5 pick.
:fans:

Why on earth would you mortgage that much for a rookie when this year's FAs at those positions are so deep/talented?

You would honestly rather have:

Peterson

instead of:

ODaniels
Jacoby Jones
11th pick
73rd pick?

When, once FA starts, we can sign someone like:

Jonathan Joseph
Richard Marshall
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr... and still have OD, JJ, and a 1st and 3rd?

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 03:09 PM
Why on earth would you mortgage that much for a rookie when this year's FAs at those positions are so deep/talented?

You would honestly rather have:

Peterson

instead of:

ODaniels
Jacoby Jones
11th pick
73rd pick?

When, once FA starts, we can sign someone like:

Jonathan Joseph
Richard Marshall
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr... and still have OD, JJ, and a 1st and 3rd?

If you believe Peterson is going to be an all pro you do the deal. (Which I do)

I want Peterson and one of the guys you listed in FA or Taylor. Fixing the secondary would be a great place to start and you would still have your 2nd rd pick to draft a pash rusher. Not everything on defense would be fixed. But the baseline would be set for the 2012 draft to add more talent.

Could the Texans do without OD? They did last yr quite well.

JJ ? You bet ya

#11 Peterson would essentially be #11.

So it would cost a 3rd rd pick. Peterson is well worth it. (IMHO) and you would still have rds 4-7 to add depth.

HoustonFrog
04-27-2011, 03:40 PM
The problem I'm seeing now is that Cleveland is willing to move their pick at 6 but I'm seeing alot of Peterson and Miller in the Top 5. Considering how this has gone in the past with the Texans I'm getting the feeling we are getting smoke screens to get other teams to chase "their" guy while others drop. Who knows but it is strange that so many teams allegedly have this trade up mentality and it is in the public. From that standpoint a team like the Cowboys, who also has Peterson as their top guy can spend less to jump up in front.

Corrosion
04-27-2011, 03:56 PM
Why on earth would you mortgage that much for a rookie when this year's FAs at those positions are so deep/talented?

You would honestly rather have:

Peterson

instead of:

ODaniels
Jacoby Jones
11th pick
73rd pick?

When, once FA starts, we can sign someone like:

Jonathan Joseph
Richard Marshall
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr... and still have OD, JJ, and a 1st and 3rd?

The Texans offense can still put up plenty of points without OD. Dressen filled in quite nicely and is the better blocker.

J.Jones makes some great playes , then turns around and drops a gimmie in the endzone. He's not likely to be in a Texans uniform after this season with FA fast approaching for him.


0k0ye likely doesnt fit the scheme as a DT and hasnt proven to be much more than quality depth as a 43 DT. (I think he fits quite well as a 34 DE tho , probably his more natural position. but thats not the point)

Thing is , Im not sure those players , along with 11 and 73 are enough to move up to #3. Players just dont have the same value as draft picks in NFL trades. Even great players have been moved for little compensation in the form of draft picks.


That said , if I can move up and take what I believe to be a perenial Pro Bowl talent - getting arguably one of the two most talented players in this draft - for the above deal , I do it in a heartbeat. All of the above is replacable in FA.

This team has always gone the safe route and doesnt have much in the way of game changing players. That needs to change , its time to take some shots. Add those game changers both in the draft and FA to the core and see how far it'll take ya.

HoustonFrog
04-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Texans locked on Aldon Smith now being reported..lol

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

evansilva Evan Silva
Multiple reports indicate #Texans are locked in on Aldon Smith. May even take him over Robert Quinn, Prince Amukamara. http://bit.ly/eJsQC3

http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6477/aldon-smith

John McClain of the Houston Chronicle remains steadfast that the Texans will take Aldon Smith at No. 11 if the top ten goes as most expect.McClain is even to the point where he believes Houston would take Smith over Robert Quinn due to concerns Quinn's benign brain tumor may reappear as a problem. Lance Zierlein of the Chronicle also reported that the Texans would likely take Smith over Nebraska CB Prince Amukamara. "You'll hear Prince Amukamara's name with us," one team source said. "But I don't see it." Apr 27, 3:37 PM

Ole Miss Texan
04-27-2011, 04:07 PM
Texans locked on Aldon Smith now being reported..lol

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6477/aldon-smith

I definitely think there is some truth to this but I also think if there are some "leaks" about it... our feelings won't be hurt if a team trades up for him and pushes another player down to us. Ton of smoke going around this time of year. I also don't doubt the validity that we'd take Smith over Quinn and Amukamara. I think Kubes/Wade/Rick question the impact Quinn would make early on with taking an entire year off of football. Doesn't seem like a move they'd do - and I don't think they've ever really seriously considered the Prince.

Corrosion
04-27-2011, 04:09 PM
Texans locked on Aldon Smith now being reported..lol

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva



http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6477/aldon-smith

McClain and Zierlein know about as much about the Texans decision making as most people here do .... They can predict how the first 10 go and make an educated guess according to the Texans needs as to who they would choose.


I dont belive they would take Quinn or Smith as both have injury concerns.

HoustonFrog
04-27-2011, 04:21 PM
I definitely think there is some truth to this but I also think if there are some "leaks" about it... our feelings won't be hurt if a team trades up for him and pushes another player down to us. Ton of smoke going around this time of year. I also don't doubt the validity that we'd take Smith over Quinn and Amukamara. I think Kubes/Wade/Rick question the impact Quinn would make early on with taking an entire year off of football. Doesn't seem like a move they'd do - and I don't think they've ever really seriously considered the Prince.

I think every team from about 9 to 15 is wanting in the Top 7-8 to grab a "premiere" guy. However I highly doubt they would make their intentions known due to other teams maybe jumping up ahead. I think most of this right now is a smoke screen and that many teams are doing it to force others up while maybe pushing some players down.

McClain and Zierlein know about as much about the Texans decision making as most people here do .... They can predict how the first 10 go and make an educated guess according to the Texans needs as to who they would choose.


I dont belive they would take Quinn or Smith as both have injury concerns.

Well I do believe LZ knows alot more than McClain because he has people in the inside and around the league. I think McClain's contacts aren't as good as they once might have been. But overall all of the reports are people trying to gather info and going off of hearsay.

Tx Longhorn
04-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Why on earth would you mortgage that much for a rookie when this year's FAs at those positions are so deep/talented?

You would honestly rather have:

Peterson

instead of:

ODaniels
Jacoby Jones
11th pick
73rd pick?

When, once FA starts, we can sign someone like:

Jonathan Joseph
Richard Marshall
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr... and still have OD, JJ, and a 1st and 3rd?

To be fair, I'd do that deal without hesitation.

Peterson isn't just run of the mill. He's an elite level talent who not only helps the Texans for the long term future, I think he gives them a very good chance to break through NOW.

I like OD and Jacoby as much as anyone, however to me both are replaceable. For several years now, Houston has been right on the cusp of making the playoffs, yet have been done in by the big play, usually of the passing variety. While the draft is the biggest of crapshoots, I'm fully convinced you put a Peterson level cornerback on the roster, the Texans win 3 of the 5 close losses and make the playoffs.

If the choice is an elite level, shutdown CB or a damn good TE and an ok #2 WR with moderate production, give me the CB... Every time.

Issue is, I don't think Buffalo does that move.

Tx Longhorn
04-27-2011, 04:30 PM
Here's the question I've had from the start about Aldon Smith:

He's raw. He needs refining and is a "work in progress" pick.

I think we all can agree that 2011 is likely a crap or get off the pot year for Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith. We know it, be assured they realize it too. Thus, all the talks being mentioned of them moving up to take Miller or Peterson. Both give them the best chance NOW. Smith, especially coming off a pretty serious injury? I don't feel quite the same about. I also think the front office feels this way. I also have been very adamant that I feel if the Texans take a non -CB at 11, it'll be Cameron Jordan, not Smith for this very reason.

Granted, it is very possible if Kubes and Smith get fired, Wade may be given the HC job and whoever the new GM is will more or less be told to work with him as "the man" but that's no certainty. I see the front office drafting the best player who helps them win now. That isn't Aldon Smith.

Corrosion
04-27-2011, 04:32 PM
Here's the question I've had from the start about Aldon Smith:

He's raw. He needs refining and is a "work in progress" pick.

I think we all can agree that 2011 is likely a crap or get off the pot year for Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith. We know it, be assured they realize it too. Thus, all the talks being mentioned of them moving up to take Miller or Peterson. Both give them the best chance NOW. Smith, especially coming off a pretty serious injury? I don't feel quite the same about. I also think the front office feels this way. I also have been very adamant that I feel if the Texans take a non -CB at 11, it'll be Cameron Jordan, not Smith for this very reason.

Granted, it is very possible if Kubes and Smith get fired, Wade may be given the HC job and whoever the new GM is will more or less be told to work with him as "the man" but that's no certainty. I see the front office drafting the best player who helps them win now. That isn't Aldon Smith.

Come on , dont go using common sense here .... that just screws up everyone's fantasy.

Tx Longhorn
04-27-2011, 04:44 PM
Come on , dont go using common sense here .... that just screws up everyone's fantasy.

I'll try my best not to in the future :)

Norg
04-27-2011, 04:53 PM
I think we really need to make sure this 3-4 is all set I know in the draft we will prob half and half meaning d line and secondary help

But IMO we need alot of players on the dline

We need

Like two ILB
Like two OLB
Two NT
Like 3 DE

!!!

badboy
04-27-2011, 05:08 PM
Just a few notes on some posts above; Jacoby Jones is not on roster and could not be traded if he was until CBA resolved. We can not trade players or 2012 picks as of today (April 27th 4pm central). I don't want a CBA until after draft as I think some teams will trade up to take QBs as no free agency. This should help Texans.

For me Texans need to get 3 starters out of this draft.

HOU-TEX
04-27-2011, 05:13 PM
Just a few notes on some posts above; Jacoby Jones is not on roster and could not be traded if he was until CBA resolved. We can not trade players or 2012 picks as of today (April 27th 4pm central). I don't want a CBA until after draft as I think some teams will trade up to take QBs as no free agency. This should help Texans.

For me Texans need to get 3 starters out of this draft.

Actually, teams can trade 2012 picks. At their own risk, of course

DocBar
04-27-2011, 05:41 PM
Why on earth would you mortgage that much for a rookie when this year's FAs at those positions are so deep/talented?

You would honestly rather have:

Peterson

instead of:

ODaniels
Jacoby Jones
11th pick
73rd pick?

When, once FA starts, we can sign someone like:

Jonathan Joseph
Richard Marshall
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr... and still have OD, JJ, and a 1st and 3rd?

Yes I would. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Maybe there's a reason neither one of us are GM's. :kitten:

DocBar
04-27-2011, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=HOU-TEX;1685741]Actually, teams can trade 2012 picks. At their own risk, of course[/QUOTE}If I'm Smithiak this draft, I go balls out, no quit and get the best. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I want to win in '11. If we win in '11 then '12 can take care of itself cuz there are obviously fewer holes to fill. Call me crazy, but that's how I see it. Plus I just won a poker game( all the chips, not just one hand) on a pair of queens. It happens like that sometimes.

dalemurphy
04-27-2011, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=HOU-TEX;1685741]Actually, teams can trade 2012 picks. At their own risk, of course[/QUOTE}If I'm Smithiak this draft, I go balls out, no quit and get the best. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I want to win in '11. If we win in '11 then '12 can take care of itself cuz there are obviously fewer holes to fill. Call me crazy, but that's how I see it. Plus I just won a poker game( all the chips, not just one hand) on a pair of queens. It happens like that sometimes.

I'm not sure that starting a rookie CB next to Kareem Jackson and in front of a young CB learning the transition to FS, getting rid of an all-pro TE, a playmaking WR/punt returner, and a mid round draft pick is the recipe to win now.

VTexan
04-27-2011, 05:55 PM
I'm not too sure about all the Aldon hate. He looks exactly like a Demarcus Ware clone (not to mention Ware was drafted at 11).

All the cons are that he is more of a pass rusher than anything else.... But what else do you want out of your rushing olb?

DocBar
04-27-2011, 06:06 PM
The Texans offense can still put up plenty of points without OD. Dressen filled in quite nicely and is the better blocker.

J.Jones makes some great playes , then turns around and drops a gimmie in the endzone. He's not likely to be in a Texans uniform after this season with FA fast approaching for him.


0k0ye likely doesnt fit the scheme as a DT and hasnt proven to be much more than quality depth as a 43 DT. (I think he fits quite well as a 34 DE tho , probably his more natural position. but thats not the point)

Thing is , Im not sure those players , along with 11 and 73 are enough to move up to #3. Players just dont have the same value as draft picks in NFL trades. Even great players have been moved for little compensation in the form of draft picks.


That said , if I can move up and take what I believe to be a perenial Pro Bowl talent - getting arguably one of the two most talented players in this draft - for the above deal , I do it in a heartbeat. All of the above is replacable in FA.

This team has always gone the safe route and doesnt have much in the way of game changing players. That needs to change , its time to take some shots. Add those game changers both in the draft and FA to the core and see how far it'll take ya.I agree with your points and worked within the boundries of the post. I'm not at all sure that woud do it either, but I would do what it takes to make it happen barring trading MW. I think he is going to excel in this system because he won't be the main pass riush threat. ESPECIALLY if we get Miller. :wild:

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE=DocBar;1685773]

I'm not sure that starting a rookie CB next to Kareem Jackson and in front of a young CB learning the transition to FS, getting rid of an all-pro TE, a playmaking WR/punt returner, and a mid round draft pick is the recipe to win now.

Depends on if you think Peterson's a future all-pro.

All pro TE coming off multiple ACL surgeries.

Jackson should transition into a good #2 CB. If not Jackson, Allen can handle the #2 CB and Jackson can play nickle. I personally want the Texans to trade up for Peterson and sign Taylor in FA. This will fix the secondary fpr yrs to come. It all comes down to BoB spending the draft capital/$$$$ and the $$$$ signing a vet like Taylor.

JJ How many big plays did he make last yr? I would cut him because this team isn't going to get over the hump until the party atmosphere on the Texans changes. JJ spends more time in the clubs than watching film/perfecting route running.

If Wade thinks Quin will transition very well to FS that's good enough for me. Most scouts thought S was the best position for Quin coming out of college. Quins ability to drop down and cover the slot in the base defense will be invaluable. IMHO

badboy
04-27-2011, 06:17 PM
Actually, teams can trade 2012 picks. At their own risk, of courseThat is not my understanding and I think a link was posted on another thread. I'll try to research.

VTexan
04-27-2011, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=dalemurphy;1685777]

Depends on if you think Peterson's a future all-pro.

All pro TE coming off multiple ACL surgeries.

Jackson should transition into a good #2 CB. If not Jackson, Allen can handle the #2 CB and Jackson can play nickle. I personally want the Texans to trade up for Peterson and sign Taylor in FA. This will fix the secondary fpr yrs to come. It all comes down to BoB spending the draft capital/$$$$ and the $$$$ signing a vet like Taylor.

JJ How many big plays did he make last yr? I would cut him because this team isn't going to get over the hump until the party atmosphere on the Texans changes. JJ spends more time in the clubs than watching film/perfecting route running.

If Wade thinks Quin will transition very well to FS that's good enough for me. Most scouts thought S was the best position for Quin coming out of college. Quins ability to drop down and cover the slot in the base defense will be invaluable. IMHO

Point is moot because you are not allowed to trade players for picks in this draft.

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 06:20 PM
How much did the Texans 2nd rd pick contribute last yr?

Did the team really miss him?

Make the trade if you can get that lucky.

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 06:24 PM
[QUOTE=steelbtexan;1685792]

Point is moot because you are not allowed to trade players for picks in this draft.

True

But this is just a hypothetical.

Since the lockout was lifted I was under the impression players could be traded. But the owners have agreed among themselves not to do it until the appeal has been heard.

DocBar
04-27-2011, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=dalemurphy;1685777]

Depends on if you think Peterson's a future all-pro.

All pro TE coming off multiple ACL surgeries.

Jackson should transition into a good #2 CB. If not Jackson, Allen can handle the #2 CB and Jackson can play nickle. I personally want the Texans to trade up for Peterson and sign Taylor in FA. This will fix the secondary fpr yrs to come. It all comes down to BoB spending the draft capital/$$$$ and the $$$$ signing a vet like Taylor.

JJ How many big plays did he make last yr? I would cut him because this team isn't going to get over the hump until the party atmosphere on the Texans changes. JJ spends more time in the clubs than watching film/perfecting route running.
If Wade thinks Quin will transition very well to FS that's good enough for me. Most scouts thought S was the best position for Quin coming out of college. Quins ability to drop down and cover the slot in the base defense will be invaluable. IMHOThere's a "party atmosphere" on the straight laced Texans? I think it's more like one backup WR thinks his natural talent will win him a spot on this club. If we stop being a team that has inferior talent playing a significant role on game days, we will stop having inferior receivers running inferior routes and dropping TD's. JMHO.

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 06:27 PM
[QUOTE=steelbtexan;1685792]There's a "party atmosphere" on the straight laced Texans? I think it's more like one backup WR thinks his natural talent will win him a spot on this club. If we stop being a team that has inferior talent playing a significant role on game days, we will stop having inferior receivers running inferior routes and dropping TD's. JMHO.

True, LOL

VTexan
04-27-2011, 06:35 PM
How much did the Texans 2nd rd pick contribute last yr?

Did the team really miss him?

Make the trade if you can get that lucky.

Just because the Texans don't usually make the most useful 2nd round picks, doesn't mean they aren't extremely valuable.

How much did Demeco Ryans contribute to our team in his career? (ironically enough one of our only 2nd round picks)

In recent history, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Brandon Flowers, Matt Forte, Lesean Mccoy, Sidney Rice, Lamar Woodley, Zach Miller, Ryan Kalil, Roman Harper, Marcus McNeil, Greg Jennings, Devin Hester, MJD all come from the 2nd round. And this is just dating back to 2006..

All but Brandon Flowers, Matt Forte and Lesean Mccoy made the pro-bowl.


That is why pro-bowl players like Brandon Marshall only gets traded for 2nd's.

Peterson may look like a sure fire hall of famer but nothing is ever certain in the draft.

Corrosion
04-27-2011, 06:40 PM
I'm not too sure about all the Aldon hate. He looks exactly like a Demarcus Ware clone (not to mention Ware was drafted at 11).

All the cons are that he is more of a pass rusher than anything else.... But what else do you want out of your rushing olb?

Ive watched quite a bit of tape on Smith and I just dont see the comparisons to Ware. He's considerably slower - He lacks technique , totally unpolished . He's going to be a work in progress. Top it off with a shattered leg ..... Im not willing to take that risk at the 11th pick of the first round.

DocBar
04-27-2011, 06:45 PM
Ive watched quite a bit of tape on Smith and I just dont see the comparisons to Ware. He's considerably slower - He lacks technique , totally unpolished . He's going to be a work in progress. Top it off with a shattered leg ..... Im not willing to take that risk at the 11th pick of the first round.Me either.

dalemurphy
04-27-2011, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=steelbtexan;1685792]

Point is moot because you are not allowed to trade players for picks in this draft.

That is true right this minute. But, depending on how the judge rules on the appeal, trading could be open tomorrow.

Rey
04-27-2011, 07:15 PM
How do ya'll know JJ runs inferior routes? From everything I heard he had recommitted himself to becoming a good football player...

Just because he drops passes doesn't mean he doesn't work hard. It could just mean that he drops passes sometimes because he hasn't learned how to be consistent....

Dutchrudder
04-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Mike Mayock doesn't even have Aldon Smith listed in his top 5 OLBs... He's usually pretty good at ranking these players.

VTexan
04-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Ive watched quite a bit of tape on Smith and I just dont see the comparisons to Ware. He's considerably slower - He lacks technique , totally unpolished . He's going to be a work in progress. Top it off with a shattered leg ..... Im not willing to take that risk at the 11th pick of the first round.

How do you feel about Quinn compared to Smith?

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 07:35 PM
Just because the Texans don't usually make the most useful 2nd round picks, doesn't mean they aren't extremely valuable.

How much did Demeco Ryans contribute to our team in his career? (ironically enough one of our only 2nd round picks)

In recent history, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Brandon Flowers, Matt Forte, Lesean Mccoy, Sidney Rice, Lamar Woodley, Zach Miller, Ryan Kalil, Roman Harper, Marcus McNeil, Greg Jennings, Devin Hester, MJD all come from the 2nd round. And this is just dating back to 2006..

All but Brandon Flowers, Matt Forte and Lesean Mccoy made the pro-bowl.


That is why pro-bowl players like Brandon Marshall only gets traded for 2nd's.

Peterson may look like a sure fire hall of famer but nothing is ever certain in the draft.

Agreed

However I would take Petersons potential over Rick and Garys ability to pick above average players in rds 1-2.

You actually made my case for me. A drunken Thorn could do a better job in the warroom than Rick and Gary. So you have to try to lower your bust rate. You do this by trading up for Peterson. It would be different if Belicheck/Polian/Colbert or Thompson were making the picks. I mean he** Gary didn't even think it was important enough to show up at last yrs combine. That should tell you how comitted he is to the draft process.

And you wonder why the Texans are talent deficient at so many spots on their roster.

Rey
04-27-2011, 07:35 PM
In recent history, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Brandon Flowers, Matt Forte, Lesean Mccoy, Sidney Rice, Lamar Woodley, Zach Miller, Ryan Kalil, Roman Harper, Marcus McNeil, Greg Jennings, Devin Hester, MJD all come from the 2nd round. And this is just dating back to 2006..


I'm sure there are a lot more 2nd round studs, but dating back to 2006 there have been about 128 picks (someone check my math)....out of those 128, how many would you say made significant impacts in their first year?

But beyond that, we are talking about more than just 2nd round picks...We are talking about 3rd and 4th rounders as well...And more specifically we are talking about the Texans making those picks...

I'd say that a NE patriots mid round pick would probably have more chance of success than a Houston Texan's mid round pick. I think history tells us that...

So really, it doesn't matter what other teams have been able to do with their mid round picks...What have we been able to dowith this regime? Fact is we are stuck with them for at least one more year...I won't be upset if they stand pat or trade down because those would potentially be good moves for the future.

But this regime needs immediate impact. I think that this regime has a better shot at getting a player that would have significant impact from day one if they trade up and pick up one of the top players in the draft vs having basically the same old people calling shots in the war room..

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 07:38 PM
How do ya'll know JJ runs inferior routes? From everything I heard he had recommitted himself to becoming a good football player...

Just because he drops passes doesn't mean he doesn't work hard. It could just mean that he drops passes sometimes because he hasn't learned how to be consistent....

Recomitted? Dont you have to be comitted 1st?

JJ seems to be very comitted to the Houston nightlife. He's very consistent in this regard.

steelbtexan
04-27-2011, 07:41 PM
Mike Mayock doesn't even have Aldon Smith listed in his top 5 OLBs... He's usually pretty good at ranking these players.

This means Smith picks Smith.

LOL

Rey
04-27-2011, 07:47 PM
Recomitted? Dont you have to be comitted 1st?

JJ seems to be very comitted to the Houston nightlife. He's very consistent in this regard.

So are you saying that at no point in his life he was committed to working hard and doing his best come game time?
And so what he goes out...So does Andre and a bunch of other young single football players...

I'm not saying JJ never goes out, but I've only seen him out once and that was at a highschool football game...and I've seen Andre dozens of times....

Of course JJ has had his maturity issues, but he hasn't been a big time trouble player...I personally don't think that JJ's commitment is the reason that he drops passes...And you didn't even address the bad routes part...Not sure how you guys came to that conclusion...

VTexan
04-27-2011, 07:52 PM
I'm sure there are a lot more 2nd round studs, but dating back to 2006 there have been about 128 picks (someone check my math)....out of those 128, how many would you say made significant impacts in their first year?


I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. Have the Texans pony up because they are inept at drafting! It just pains me to see our second round pick pissed away continually instead of building depth and drafting potential studs.


I'm sure out of 128 1st round picks there quite a few busts as well :P.

Corrosion
04-27-2011, 08:01 PM
How do you feel about Quinn compared to Smith?

From a thread in the College Football section - Posted yesterday.


Quinn - Brain tumor


Smith - Shattered leg


Miller -Healthy.



I would not be upset to see them trade up to take either Peterson or Miller. Top two on my overall board.


Both guy's have injury concerns , one more a physical issue - the other more dangerous to the player. I do believe Quinn is the better player.

Just dont think my conscience would allow me to put a helmet on the guy and tell him to go bash it in with the risks to him being so life altering.

dalemurphy
04-27-2011, 08:39 PM
I'm sure there are a lot more 2nd round studs, but dating back to 2006 there have been about 128 picks (someone check my math)....out of those 128, how many would you say made significant impacts in their first year?

But beyond that, we are talking about more than just 2nd round picks...We are talking about 3rd and 4th rounders as well...And more specifically we are talking about the Texans making those picks...

I'd say that a NE patriots mid round pick would probably have more chance of success than a Houston Texan's mid round pick. I think history tells us that...

So really, it doesn't matter what other teams have been able to do with their mid round picks...What have we been able to dowith this regime? Fact is we are stuck with them for at least one more year...I won't be upset if they stand pat or trade down because those would potentially be good moves for the future.

But this regime needs immediate impact. I think that this regime has a better shot at getting a player that would have significant impact from day one if they trade up and pick up one of the top players in the draft vs having basically the same old people calling shots in the war room..


Here is an article I wrote last month after spending a great deal of time researching the value of 1st round vs. 2nd round picks. I tried to simply post it but the formatting changes created problems... so, here's the link for those interested: 2nd Round vs. 1st Round value in the modern NFL draft (http://www.texansbullblog.com/trade-stay-put-trade/featured-articles/)

Tx Longhorn
04-27-2011, 09:51 PM
][QUOTE=DocBar;1685773]

I'm not sure that starting a rookie CB next to Kareem Jackson and in front of a young CB learning the transition to FS, getting rid of an all-pro TE, a playmaking WR/punt returner, and a mid round draft pick is the recipe to win now.

Ok, second synopsis.

You named several possible CB options. By all accounts, Cincinnati has full intentions of keeping Jonathan Joseph. I also see the chances of Grimes leaving Atlanta as being slim. Richard Marshall is better against run support than he is at pass protection, and Carr's a solid #2.

My answer still remains. Patrick Peterson is considered about as safe of a pick as you possibly can make in this year's draft. Sure, there's always the variables you can't count on, like him suffering some kind of freak injury that derails his career, but in terms of the ball of work surrounding his talent, he he's as safe as you can get, in a position of weakness.

I'd not be nuts about trading Owen Daniels either, but I don't feel the Texans would be crippled without him. Not when Joel Dressen had similar (in some cases better) numbers than Daniels this year.

I guess it all boils down to how I value TE versus how I value shutdown cornerbacks.

badboy
04-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Ive watched quite a bit of tape on Smith and I just dont see the comparisons to Ware. He's considerably slower - He lacks technique , totally unpolished . He's going to be a work in progress. Top it off with a shattered leg ..... Im not willing to take that risk at the 11th pick of the first round.It was a broken fibula and I think a non-weight bearing bone & should be all right. Smith returned after missing only 3 games Oct 23rd i believe & had apprx 29 tackles and 3 QB sacks after his return. He obviously was hampered but did ok. It will all boil down to team seeing his med report & thinking he will be ok by game one. If Texans select him it will be basically to rush the QB and cause disruption. His strength will improve with NFL coach and he is only 21 & was a red shirt soph. He should have plenty of upside. I too do not compare him to Ware but neither do I compare any of the other DEs to Ware. I am more worried that SMith will select Amukamara.

Tx Longhorn
04-28-2011, 12:03 AM
Here's scouting reports from one of the more noteworthy and better draft sites. Two players, same position. One's being considered a top 15 picks, the other a third rounder. See if you notice the striking similarities.

Player A

Strengths:
Rangy with extremely long arms and room to grow
Smooth athlete with excellent agility and balance
Explosive with great speed, quickness and a burst
Excels at bending off the edge and running the arc
Changes directions well and is comfortable in space
Outstanding range in pursuit and closes in a hurry
Very active and aggressive with a non-stop motor
A powerful tackler who will deliver a knockout hit
Plays strong and has some violence in his game
Tough and willing to play through pain / injuries
Will offer some positional and schematic versatility
Still developing and has enormous amount of upside

Weaknesses:
Extremely unrefined, both physically and mentally
Overall instincts and awareness are questionable
Can do a better job of defending against the run
Tendency to get tall and lose leverage at times
Battled injury and durability might be a concern
Doesn't have as much experience as you'd prefer

Player B

Strengths:
Explosive athlete with truly rare speed for position
Excels at bending off the edge and running the arc
Does a fantastic job in pursuit with a burst to close
Smooth with fluid hips and nice change of direction
Reliable tackler and also capable of delivering big hit
Feisty, competitive and hard working with good motor
Productive and consistently wreaked havoc in backfield

Weaknesses:
Is undersized and lacks ideal height that you look for
Overall instincts and awareness are highly questionable
Lacking a wide array of pass rush moves and counters
Doesn't use hands well and struggles to get off blocks
Not very strong or powerful and will get pushed around
Will be forced to make a position change at next level

See any major differences? Really?

For the record, pick A is Aldon Smith, pick B is Dontay Moch of Nevada.

badboy
04-28-2011, 12:48 AM
Here's scouting reports from one of the more noteworthy and better draft sites. Two players, same position. One's being considered a top 15 picks, the other a third rounder. See if you notice the striking similarities.

Player A

Strengths:
• Rangy with extremely long arms and room to grow
• Smooth athlete with excellent agility and balance
• Explosive with great speed, quickness and a burst
• Excels at bending off the edge and running the arc
• Changes directions well and is comfortable in space
• Outstanding range in pursuit and closes in a hurry
• Very active and aggressive with a non-stop motor
• A powerful tackler who will deliver a knockout hit
• Plays strong and has some violence in his game
• Tough and willing to play through pain / injuries
• Will offer some positional and schematic versatility
• Still developing and has enormous amount of upside

Weaknesses:
• Extremely unrefined, both physically and mentally
• Overall instincts and awareness are questionable
• Can do a better job of defending against the run
• Tendency to get tall and lose leverage at times
• Battled injury and durability might be a concern
• Doesn't have as much experience as you'd prefer

Player B

Strengths:
• Explosive athlete with truly rare speed for position
• Excels at bending off the edge and running the arc
• Does a fantastic job in pursuit with a burst to close
• Smooth with fluid hips and nice change of direction
• Reliable tackler and also capable of delivering big hit
• Feisty, competitive and hard working with good motor
• Productive and consistently wreaked havoc in backfield

Weaknesses:
• Is undersized and lacks ideal height that you look for
• Overall instincts and awareness are highly questionable
• Lacking a wide array of pass rush moves and counters
• Doesn't use hands well and struggles to get off blocks
• Not very strong or powerful and will get pushed around
• Will be forced to make a position change at next level

See any major differences? Really?

For the record, pick A is Aldon Smith, pick B is Dontay Moch of Nevada.Biggest difference is Moch will be there in 3rd and maybe 4th. I don't know anyone rating Moch anywhere near Smith. If you knew you could get Moch, you could bypass Smith. Why not split the difference and go with Acho in 2nd? I think he has good chance of being there in 3rd.

Thorn
04-28-2011, 07:33 AM
Well, at least Thursday has finally arrived and we'll find out tonight what's what.

gafftop
04-28-2011, 08:14 AM
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." --- John Wayne

Like this quote, this is the Texans FO and coaches. We the fans suffer. All this "moving up" discussion would be much more plausible or not even necessary if the Texans had lost the last game last year. Why was it so damn important to win that game. I know it is done, GET OVER IT, but its tough when these guys are the braintrust. I would do something if Peterson was involved but I am not sold on Miller. Aldon doesn't sound like a sure thing. One of reports said "could be a bust". Only the Texans would pick him this high.

Maddict5
04-28-2011, 08:26 AM
Mike Mayock doesn't even have Aldon Smith listed in his top 5 OLBs... He's usually pretty good at ranking these players.

hes listed as the #4 DE. olb's are generally 4-3 possibility guys

steelbtexan
04-28-2011, 08:53 AM
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." --- John Wayne

Like this quote, this is the Texans FO and coaches. We the fans suffer. All this "moving up" discussion would be much more plausible or not even necessary if the Texans had lost the last game last year. Why was it so damn important to win that game. I know it is done, GET OVER IT, but its tough when these guys are the braintrust. I would do something if Peterson was involved but I am not sold on Miller. Aldon doesn't sound like a sure thing. One of reports said "could be a bust". Only the Texans would pick him this high.

Atleast by winnig that last game they will be picking at 11 instead of 6. Thereby keeping the payroll down.

Uncle BoB repaid Rick and Gary saving him this $$$$ by not firing them.

I fully expect Rick and Gary to draft another OyOye/Babin type guy. The beat goes on and on and on. This is what happens when you have upper management that are in way over their heads.

It's up to Rick and Gary to prove me wrong. I really dont see them getting better after 5 yrs of failure.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 09:06 AM
Atleast by winnig that last game they will be picking at 11 instead of 6. Thereby keeping the payroll down.

Uncle BoB repaid Rick and Gary saving him this $$$$ by not firing them.

I fully expect Rick and Gary to draft another OyOye/Babin type guy. The beat goes on and on and on. This is what happens when you have upper management that are in way over their heads.

It's up to Rick and Gary to prove me wrong. I really dont see them getting better after 5 yrs of failure.

First of all, they had nothing to do with the Babin selection.

Second, I really don't think their draft process is flawed. I actually think they have drafted well. Their real problem is their inability to assess and coach the players on the team. I have come to that conclusion after looking back at their previous drafts and noting how often rookies tend to decline and some promising rookies simply lost out on playing time or were released in favor of lesser players. It's hard to say whether Kareem Jackson was a good pick or not since that defense and coaching staff was in such shambles. I doubt any rookie would've looked good in the midst of that mess.

I say this not to excuse Smithiak. They are responsible for everything that has gone wrong... for all the mistakes they made cutting down the roster to 53 (cough-Tramon Williams) to the decision to hire Frank Bush and David Gibbs without even a moderate search. However, my point is that I have more confidence in what they will be doing this weekend and much more concern with the decision-making and evaluation process that will begin in August.

It isn't the drafting that separates the Texans from New England in regards to personnel, it's the decision-making afterwards. The Tom Brady draft is the perfect example. The entire draft was an entire waste until the Brady selection in round 6... I mean, it was utter garbage. The Patriots saw something they liked in Tom Brady but knew he was nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. Instead of cutting him, they kept 4 QBs on the roster that year... Unprecedented! This Texan organization may draft a Tom Brady, may even recognize some of his ability, but they would never even entertain a decision that was out of the box like the Patriots did. No, Brady would've been cut by the Texans and the Patriots still would've ended up with him.

steelbtexan
04-28-2011, 09:18 AM
2007-OkOye/JJ/Bennett
2008- D.Brown/Molden/Slaton
2009- Cushing/Barwin/Caldwell
2010- Jackson/Tate/Mitchell

I would say the Rick and Gary's draft track record leaves alot to be desired. When you combine this with terrible coaching it's a wonder the Texans won as many game as they have.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 09:34 AM
2007-OkOye/JJ/Bennett
2008- D.Brown/Molden/Slaton
2009- Cushing/Barwin/Caldwell
2010- Jackson/Tate/Mitchell

I would say the Rick and Gary's draft track record leaves alot to be desired. When you combine this with terrible coaching it's a wonder the Texans won as many game as they have.

Jacoby was a good pick. Okoye/Bennett - looked good as rookies
DBrown was a good pick. Slaton/Molden looked very good as rookies
Cushing/Barwin/Caldwell are all good picks
2010 was a nightmare. Too early to judge those picks

steelbtexan
04-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Jacoby was a good pick. Okoye/Bennett - looked good as rookies
DBrown was a good pick. Slaton/Molden looked very good as rookies
Cushing/Barwin/Caldwell are all good picks
2010 was a nightmare. Too early to judge those picks

JJ=Still not a starter, below avg returner last yr. When does failing to reach your potential = Bust? OkOye #10 pick = bust, He should be traded or cut, Bennett = out of league

Brown was a good pick, Slaton/Molden probably wont make the team next yr

Cushing = PED's who knows how he will do? Barwin =injured, How will he come back from injury next yr? Caldwell = cant beat out Briesel, LOL

2010, agreed, to early to judge, but things dont look promising

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 10:32 AM
JJ=Still not a starter, below avg returner last yr. When does failing to reach your potential = Bust? OkOye #10 pick = bust, He should be traded or cut, Bennett = out of league

Brown was a good pick, Slaton/Molden probably wont make the team next yr

Cushing = PED's who knows how he will do? Barwin =injured, How will he come back from injury next yr? Caldwell = cant beat out Briesel, LOL

2010, agreed, to early to judge, but things dont look promising


Believe me, Steel, I'm not suggesting the team's future is secure because of Bennett, Slaton, and Molden.

I am suggesting that it is likely many of these picks would have been more successful with better coaching.

Jacoby Jones may not have improved as much as we'd like, but I would challenge you to find more than 7 or 8 more productive 3rd round picks from 2007. I'd challenge you to do the same with the 2009 3rd round pick regarding Caldwell.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
They really haven't drafted well when you look how poorly they have done in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...where you need to hit.

On a side note the new rumor from EVERY fraft person is Miller to Denver at #2. That makes him unavailable. I also think that while that might push Dareus down, it might bring Peterson more into play in the Top 5. I don't think the Texans will move up. Too rich. If anything with the craziness that is out there I think they stay put or even move down a few for QB desperate teams.

The1ApplePie
04-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Todd "I Ruined Jevon Snead's Career" McShay basically said it was a lock that the Texans were trading with the Cardinals to get Patrick Peterson.

The way he stated it made it sound like a done deal.

Kind of like Jevon Snead as a first round pick

DonnyMost
04-28-2011, 10:48 AM
Just go ahead and sell the farm to Denver to get Von Miller.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 10:52 AM
Todd "I Ruined Jevon Snead's Career" McShay basically said it was a lock that the Texans were trading with the Cardinals to get Patrick Peterson.

The way he stated it made it sound like a done deal.

Kind of like Jevon Snead as a first round pick

I just can't see it. Not at this point where there are so many teams in play for Peterson. I think Cards are looking for more and are leaking this. I've seen 2 articles where Peterson said he'd love Dallas to trade for him. Then you have the 49ers at 7 wanting him too.

Vinnie
04-28-2011, 11:00 AM
I just can't see it. Not at this point where there are so many teams in play for Peterson. I think Cards are looking for more and are leaking this. I've seen 2 articles where Peterson said he'd love Dallas to trade for him. Then you have the 49ers at 7 wanting him too.

I don't see it either, I'm convinced they'll persue free agents. The rookie CB experiment was a miserable failure and they are very well aware of that.

BigBull17
04-28-2011, 11:02 AM
Peterson to Dallas would make a very unhappy Aaron.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:06 AM
They really haven't drafted well when you look how poorly they have done in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...where you need to hit.

I totally disagree with that:

They've only had two 2nd rounders due to the Schaub trade: Barwin, Tate. I love Barwin and 2011 will be the season to find out if that is justified. Clearly, it's too early to say on Tate.

3rd: Jacoby Jones, Caldwell, and Earl Mitchell all have been solid to good picks, IMO. Slaton was an excellent pick in the 3rd round. Unfortunately, he had an injury and they mishandled it/him.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
I totally disagree with that:

They've only had two 2nd rounders due to the Schaub trade: Barwin, Tate. I love Barwin and 2011 will be the season to find out if that is justified. Clearly, it's too early to say on Tate.

3rd: Jacoby Jones, Caldwell, and Earl Mitchell all have been solid to good picks, IMO. Slaton was an excellent pick in the 3rd round. Unfortunately, he had an injury and they mishandled it/him.

That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 11:17 AM
I think Barwin was a good pick, and will be a good player eventually. It's too early to tell on Mitchell.

But, only people who will tell you that Slaton and Jacoby Jones were good picks will tell you that Rick Smith has done a good job drafting. Those people don't know what they're talking about.

I don't think he's done a good or a bad job. I think he's been mediocre. And, the team's record reflects that.

Thorn
04-28-2011, 11:18 AM
I don't think he's done a good or a bad job. I think he's been mediocre. And, the team's record reflects that.

This is kind of where I'm at.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:19 AM
That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?

There is a big difference between assessing whether the pick was a good one versus whether the pick has worked out for the team.

Charles Spencer was a good pick. He didn't work out because of injury. The same can be said for Slaton. The reason he is going to be cut is because his spine has been mangled. There is no way to avoid that on draft day. Any rookie that played the way he did = excellent 3rd round pick. I challenge you to find 10 3rd picks from the 07/09 seasons that are better contributors to their teams than Jacoby and Caldwell are for the Texans. If you can't, that would put those picks in the top 1/3 of all 3rd rounders... Doesn't that equate to good?

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Here is the 2007 3rd round. Do you still argue that Jacoby Jones was a poor 3rd round pick? (not if you are intellectually honest)... Come on, admit your error guys.

65 Oakland Raiders Quentin Moses DE Georgia
66 New Orleans Saints Usama Young CB Kent State
67 Dallas Cowboys James Marten OT Boston College
68 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Quincy Black LB New Mexico
69 Arizona Cardinals Buster Davis LB Florida State
70 Denver Broncos Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame
71 Miami Dolphins Lorenzo Booker RB Florida State
72 Minnesota Vikings Marcus McCauley CB Fresno State
73 Houston Texans Jacoby Jones WR Lane
74 Baltimore Ravens Yamon Figurs WR Kansas State
75 Atlanta Falcons Laurent Robinson WR Illinois State
76 San Francisco 49ers Jason Hill WR Washington State
77 Pittsburgh Steelers Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota
78 Green Bay Packers James Jones WR San Jose State
79 Jacksonville Jaguars Mike Walker WR Central Florida
80 Tennessee Titans Paul Williams WR Fresno State
81 New York Giants Jay Alford NT Penn State
82 Kansas City Chiefs Tank Tyler DT North Carolina State
83 Carolina Panthers Charles Johnson DE Georgia
84 St. Louis Rams Jonathan Wade CB Tennessee
85 Seattle Seahawks Brandon Mebane DT California
86 Baltimore Ravens Marshal Yanda T Iowa
87 Philadelphia Eagles Stewart Bradley LB Nebraska
88 New Orleans Saints Andy Alleman G Akron
89 Green Bay Packers Aaron Rouse SAF Virginia Tech
90 Philadelphia Eagles Tony Hunt RB Penn State
91 Oakland Raiders Mario Henderson T Florida State
92 Buffalo Bills Trent Edwards QB Stanford
93 Chicago Bears Garrett Wolfe RB Northern Illinois
94 Chicago Bears Michael Okwo LB Stanford
95 Indianapolis Colts Dante Hughes CB California
96 San Diego Chargers Anthony Waters LB Clemson
97 San Francisco 49ers Ray McDonald DE Florida
98 Indianapolis Colts Quinn Pitcock DT Ohio State
99 Oakland Raiders Johnnie Lee Higgins WR Texas-El Paso

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Here's the 2009 3rd round. Still think Caldwell was a bad pick?


65 New York Jets Shonn Greene RB Iowa
66 St. Louis Rams Bradley Fletcher DB Iowa
67 Kansas City Chiefs Alex Magee DT Purdue
68 Chicago Bears Jarron Gilbert DT San Jose State
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Williams LB Western Illinois
70 Cincinnati Bengals Michael Johnson DE Georgia Tech
71 Oakland Raiders Matt Shaughnessy DE Wisconsin
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Terrance Knighton DT Temple
73 Jacksonville Jaguars Derek Cox DB William & Mary
74 San Francisco 49ers Glen Coffee RB Alabama
75 Dallas Cowboys Robert Brewster T Ball State
76 Detroit Lions DeAndre Levy LB Wisconsin
77 Houston Texans Antoine Caldwell C Alabama
78 San Diego Chargers Louis Vasquez G Texas Tech
79 Pittsburgh Steelers Kraig Urbik T Wisconsin
80 Washington Redskins Kevin Barnes DB Maryland
81 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Roy Miller DT Texas
82 Detroit Lions Derrick Williams WR Penn State
83 New England Patriots Brandon Tate WR North Carolina
84 Pittsburgh Steelers Mike Wallace WR Mississippi
85 New York Giants Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly-S.L.O.
86 Minnesota Vikings Asher Allen DB Georgia
87 Miami Dolphins Patrick Turner WR USC
88 Baltimore Ravens Lardarius Webb DB Nicholls State
89 Tennessee Titans Jared Cook TE South Carolina
90 Atlanta Falcons Chris Owens DB San Jose State
91 Seattle Seahawks Deon Butler WR Penn State
92 Indianapolis Colts Jerraud Powers DB Auburn
93 Carolina Panthers Corvey Irvin DT Georgia
94 Tennessee Titans Ryan Mouton DB Hawaii
95 Arizona Cardinals Rashad Johnson DB Alabama
96 Pittsburgh Steelers Keenan Lewis DB Oregon State
97 New England Patriots Tyrone McKenzie OLB South Florida
98 Cincinnati Bengals Chase Coffman TE Missouri
99 Chicago Bears Juaquin Iglesias WR Oklahoma
100 New York Giants Travis Beckum TE Wisconsin

DonnyMost
04-28-2011, 11:34 AM
I challenge you to find 10 3rd picks from the 07/09 seasons that are better contributors to their teams than Jacoby and Caldwell are for the Texans.

Wasn't all that hard.

2007:
James Jones
Mike Sims Walker
Stewart Bradley

2008:
Kevin Smith
Earl Bennett
Jamaal Charles
Jermichael Finley
Mario Manningham

2009:
Shonn Greene
Brandon Tate
Mike Wallace
Asher Allen
Ladarius Webb


*edit: Do you mean 10 from each year? In that case, nevermind.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Wasn't all that hard.

2007:
James Jones
Mike Sims Walker
Stewart Bradley

2008:
Kevin Smith
Earl Bennett
Jamaal Charles
Jermichael Finley
Mario Manningham

2009:
Shonn Greene
Brandon Tate
Mike Wallace
Asher Allen
Ladarius Webb

07/09- meant from each of those (2007, 2009), not 07-09

2007- That's only 3 of the 31 other picks. That still puts Jacoby Jones in the top 12% of the 3rd round class that year. Seems like a good pick to me.

2009- You found 5 that puts Caldwell well inside the top 25% of the 3rd rounders that year.

DonnyMost
04-28-2011, 11:39 AM
2007- That's only 3 of the 31 other picks. That still puts Jacoby Jones in the top 12% of the 3rd round class that year. Seems like a good pick to me.

2009- You found 5 that puts Caldwell well inside the top 25% of the 3rd rounders that year.

The phrasing of your question was kind of awkward.

I understand what you were going for now.

*edit: It's a little disingenuous of you to limit your scope to 3rd rounders, you really ought to increase it to include every pick made *after* Jones and Caldwell came off the board, respectively. That will give you a true picture of how good/bad those particular picks were.

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 11:46 AM
Here's the 2009 3rd round. Still think Caldwell was a bad pick?


65 New York Jets Shonn Greene RB Iowa
66 St. Louis Rams Bradley Fletcher DB Iowa
67 Kansas City Chiefs Alex Magee DT Purdue
68 Chicago Bears Jarron Gilbert DT San Jose State
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Williams LB Western Illinois
70 Cincinnati Bengals Michael Johnson DE Georgia Tech
71 Oakland Raiders Matt Shaughnessy DE Wisconsin
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Terrance Knighton DT Temple
73 Jacksonville Jaguars Derek Cox DB William & Mary
74 San Francisco 49ers Glen Coffee RB Alabama
75 Dallas Cowboys Robert Brewster T Ball State
76 Detroit Lions DeAndre Levy LB Wisconsin
77 Houston Texans Antoine Caldwell C Alabama
78 San Diego Chargers Louis Vasquez G Texas Tech
79 Pittsburgh Steelers Kraig Urbik T Wisconsin
80 Washington Redskins Kevin Barnes DB Maryland
81 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Roy Miller DT Texas
82 Detroit Lions Derrick Williams WR Penn State
83 New England Patriots Brandon Tate WR North Carolina
84 Pittsburgh Steelers Mike Wallace WR Mississippi
85 New York Giants Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly-S.L.O.
86 Minnesota Vikings Asher Allen DB Georgia
87 Miami Dolphins Patrick Turner WR USC
88 Baltimore Ravens Lardarius Webb DB Nicholls State
89 Tennessee Titans Jared Cook TE South Carolina
90 Atlanta Falcons Chris Owens DB San Jose State
91 Seattle Seahawks Deon Butler WR Penn State
92 Indianapolis Colts Jerraud Powers DB Auburn
93 Carolina Panthers Corvey Irvin DT Georgia
94 Tennessee Titans Ryan Mouton DB Hawaii
95 Arizona Cardinals Rashad Johnson DB Alabama
96 Pittsburgh Steelers Keenan Lewis DB Oregon State
97 New England Patriots Tyrone McKenzie OLB South Florida
98 Cincinnati Bengals Chase Coffman TE Missouri
99 Chicago Bears Juaquin Iglesias WR Oklahoma
100 New York Giants Travis Beckum TE Wisconsin

You didn't bold Bradley Fletcher, Michael Johnson, Terrance Knighton, Louis Vasquez, Roy Miller, Asher Allen, and Ladarius Webb, who have all had a greater impact than Caldwell, some much significantly greater.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:51 AM
You didn't bold Bradley Fletcher, Michael Johnson, Terrance Knighton, Louis Vasquez, Roy Miller, Asher Allen, and Ladarius Webb, who have all had a greater impact than Caldwell, some much significantly greater.

I missed Webb... I would disagree with you on most of the rest of them, particularly Asher Allen, who hasn't won the starting job and when he's played, he's been part of an awful secondary. Regardless, though, I'm not trying to split hairs. The point is that, even if you want to prove Caldwell was a poor pick and you have a negative view of him, you still would have to admit that there the majority of the picks in the 3rd round were worse than his.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 11:52 AM
The phrasing of your question was kind of awkward.

I understand what you were going for now.

*edit: It's a little disingenuous of you to limit your scope to 3rd rounders, you really ought to increase it to include every pick made *after* Jones and Caldwell came off the board, respectively. That will give you a true picture of how good/bad those particular picks were.

No. We weren't picking at the beginning of the round. I'm discussing the 3rd round in response to a poster who said we've drafted poorly in the 3rd round and when I brought up Jacoby and Caldwell as examples of drafting well in the 3rd, he balked at that.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 11:59 AM
No. We weren't picking at the beginning of the round. I'm discussing the 3rd round in response to a poster who said we've drafted poorly in the 3rd round and when I brought up Jacoby and Caldwell as examples of drafting well in the 3rd, he balked at that.

If you honestly think the Texans have done a good job in the 2nd and 3rd round then there is no rational conversation to be had regarding the team. They have done OK. That is it. All of those players are "OK." And Slaton isn't going to be cut because of an injury...why he slowed down. He bulked up and started Year 2 playing badly. He is getting cut because they have Foster and Tate and he isn't even a good kick returner. Jacoby isn't a good 3rd rounder. He has done nothing so far that has made you say "he is a major contributor on this team." from a consistency point. You also can't just look at the 3rd round and say "look." There are guys inthe 4th round better. And because a guy isn't a name guy you bolded doesn't mean he hasn't contributed on another team. again, it is failed discussion when guys who watch film say that these guys aren't up to snuff and yet you are convinced they have worked because of what? It's not a bad thing to admit they haven't drafted well.

On another note..McShay actually had Peterson FALLING to #11

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

evansilva Evan Silva
And per @NFLXpert, ESPN's Todd McShay has Patrick Peterson falling all the way to #Texans at 11. Gosselin has Peterson 5th to #Cardinals.

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Heh.

I'm amazed that Dale is still overlooking Terrance Knighton, considering that fact that he is in our division and might be the best player out of that entire round.

Might want to get to know him, Dale.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 12:11 PM
If you honestly think the Texans have done a good job in the 2nd and 3rd round then there is no rational conversation to be had regarding the team. They have done OK. That is it. All of those players are "OK." And Slaton isn't going to be cut because of an injury...why he slowed down. He bulked up and started Year 2 playing badly. He is getting cut because they have Foster and Tate and he isn't even a good kick returner. Jacoby isn't a good 3rd rounder. He has done nothing so far that has made you say "he is a major contributor on this team." from a consistency point. You also can't just look at the 3rd round and say "look." There are guys inthe 4th round better. And because a guy isn't a name guy you bolded doesn't mean he hasn't contributed on another team. again, it is failed discussion when guys who watch film and a majority here say that these guys aren't up to snuff and yet you are convinced they have worked because of what? This is typical Dale spin for the good guys. It's not a bad thing to admit they haven't drafted well.

On another note..McShay actually had Peterson FALLING to #11

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

.

I have plenty of criticism for Smith and Kubiak. I just disagree that the central problem has been the draft. If you can't admit that Jacoby Jones was a better 3rd round pick than most 3rd rounders in 2007, then you are the one not admitting the truth... I'm not even a Jones fan, but I know enough about the rest of the NFL to acknowledge the Texans did well to get him in 2007.

I'm not trying to argue that the Texans have drafted "great". I think the 2009 draft has the potential to be an excellent draft. I think the 2007 draft was poor, with the exception of the Schaub trade and the Jones selection (2nd and 3rd round pick).

What I see is that the Texans fan base is so frustrated with the failures of the team that they blame anything and everything. This organization has failed to produce. They've done some things poorly and some things pretty well. The results, so far, have been mediocre to poor. I'm trying to acknowledge the things they've done well as well as where they have failed. I don't see how that is spin.

Ole Miss Texan
04-28-2011, 12:13 PM
I actually agree with dale on the 2nd and 3rd round issue. We traded two 2nd for Schaub which I think was a wonderful trade.

Then drafting, I really really like Barwin and it sucks he got injured last year. Everyone wants home runs with every pick but that's not what NFL teams go for. Barwin was drafted as a situational Pass Rusher. We had Antonio and Mario, Barwin was going to come in only to rush the passer on obvious downs and he did that very well his rookie season. Led all rookie DEs in sacks. I think he's going to recover fine from his injury and will be a very good OLB for us.

Ben Tate was an excellent pick as well, another one of those 'that sucks he got injured'. You can't call him a bad pick because of that. Foster has exploded on the scene and that's good IMO for Tate as he'll have plenty of time to get healthy and not have any hits on him when his number is called.

Jacoby was a selection that everyone knew needed coaching, he was raw. I loved the selection at the time with this in mind. Andre and Walter are our starters and Jacoby fills a role they wanted him to. Would be nice if he took over the #2 role but just b/c he hasn't doesn't mean its a bad pick.

I think Caldwell was a good pick as well. I wish he would develop quicker at either C or G but it hasn't happened yet. He's played well when he's gone in the game. Brisiel is a fighter and the fact he's managed to keep a starting spot speaks volumes to him, I don't take that away from Caldwell. A 2nd year player that's providing very very good depth right now and I think will eventually become a longterm fixture on this line.

Don't forget Slaton was an extra pick we got from the trade down for Duane Brown. He played lights out his rookie season. None of us thought he could be the primary number 1 guy and he showed us that. Slaton was a huge reason for our success that season but has been ineffective after his neck injury. We got him in the 3rd.

No they havn't been probowlers but I still like the selections, call me a dumbass if you want. They're drafting these guys for specific roles. Glover Quin was not drafted with the thought of becoming our #1 CB or anything. He was drafted specifically because they loved his ability to play the nickle and cover the WR in the slot and be physical. The fact that he's been forced to do more than that out of team need speaks volumes to what a great 4th rounder that was.

I totally agree with the thought that the draft picks were good but the position coaches have not developed our guys well enough. The regress and don't progress, hopefully that changes with Wade.

gafftop
04-28-2011, 12:14 PM
That is all speculation. LZ was just discussing this on the air this morning with John Harris. All agreed that they have failed badly. 2nd and 3rd rounders are supposed to be big time contributors. Barwin and Tate have been non-factors. Injuries and when they played(Barwin). Just because you like Barwin doesn't mean he is a hit. Jacoby Jones hasn't been a top #2 and has had issues with ball control. Caldwell and Earl Mitchell or "OK." That isn't good. Slaton just was a one year wonder. He bulked up on his own and got slower. He is about to be cut. How is that good?

I am really tired of hearing about Barwin. Barwin this Barwin that... He sounds like our great white hope! He has done nothing!!! I know injury, but even before then really nothing. Looks good, almost gets there, but no concrete results. I am afraid though that the Texans are banking on him. That is the damn problem, they think a year older so better, but guess what the other teams young players are getting that same year but they have better coaches so guess what , the Texans are still behind. Just like when they counted on Slaton the 2nd year. Fans can live the dream/fantasy world COACHES CAN'T. But our coaches do. I know I am pretty pissed off about this organization. I said it before and I will say it again we have babies running the football part of the organization. By the way I do agree with the above.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 12:23 PM
I have plenty of criticism for Smith and Kubiak. I just disagree that the central problem has been the draft. If you can't admit that Jacoby Jones was a better 3rd round pick than most 3rd rounders in 2007, then you are the one not admitting the truth... I'm not even a Jones fan, but I know enough about the rest of the NFL to acknowledge the Texans did well to get him in 2007.

I'm not trying to argue that the Texans have drafted "great". I think the 2009 draft has the potential to be an excellent draft. I think the 2007 draft was poor, with the exception of the Schaub trade and the Jones selection (2nd and 3rd round pick).

What I see is that the Texans fan base is so frustrated with the failures of the team that they blame anything and everything. This organization has failed to produce. They've done some things poorly and some things pretty well. The results, so far, have been mediocre to poor. I'm trying to acknowledge the things they've done well as well as where they have failed. I don't see how that is spin.

I'm trying to figure how you get this from Jacoby....by the way, Molden was a 3rd too.....Jacoby had one great preseason and one real season of good special teams. In 4 Full seasons at WR he has a total of 96 catches and 9 Tds. He was supposed to be a guy who supplants a Kevin Walter as a #2 and who takes pressure off AJ. This hasn't happened. Half of the catches were last year but he still wasn't an impact. Laurent Robinson on the Rams, picked right below Jacoby has 89 catches in 4 years and 4 TDs. Mike Sims Walker is a mess and has only played 3 full seasons and has better numbers. James Jones..better by a mile. Charles Johnson had almost 11.5 sacks for Carolina last year. Marshall Yanda started all 16 games at Tackle for the Ravens last year. Michael Bush in the top of the 4th has had more impact for the Raiders. What you are missing is that no matter what these guys do or will do the same criteria applies..did they get value in the 3rd..a big contributor on a losing team. The answer is that he is OK. On a losing team that needs players to step up, getting projects and raw players aren't what you need out of 2nd and 3rds.

dalemurphy
04-28-2011, 12:25 PM
I am really tired of hearing about Barwin. Barwin this Barwin that... He sounds like our great white hope! He has done nothing!!! I know injury, but even before then really nothing. Looks good, almost gets there, but no concrete results. I am afraid though that the Texans are banking on him. That is the damn problem, they think a year older so better, but guess what the other teams young players are getting that same year but they have better coaches so guess what , the Texans are still behind. Just like when they counted on Slaton the 2nd year. Fans can live the dream/fantasy world COACHES CAN'T. But our coaches do. I know I am pretty pissed off about this organization. I said it before and I will say it again we have babies running the football part of the organization. By the way I do agree with the above.

I actually agree with you. One of the organization's biggest problems has been relying on inexperienced players heading into a new season, particularly on defense. Even though I love Barwin, they need to address the depth at that position in a way they have not shown the proclivity to before. Last season, for instance, they had all kinds of big plans for Barwin in their pass rush packages. Then, after he was injured in week one, they had nobody backing him up that could fulfill the role. That's just stupid! And, don't even get me started about the safety situation in 2009!

infantrycak
04-28-2011, 12:25 PM
On another note..McShay actually had Peterson FALLING to #11.

Which should tell you how much credibility to give McShay.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 12:28 PM
Which should tell you how much credibility to give McShay.

Agree. I take anything that guys says with a grain of salt. He was snorting grains of something else.

ToxicButt
04-28-2011, 12:30 PM
Todd "I Ruined Jevon Snead's Career" McShay basically said it was a lock that the Texans were trading with the Cardinals to get Patrick Peterson.

The way he stated it made it sound like a done deal.

Kind of like Jevon Snead as a first round pick


This kind of makes sense if:

Arizona gets Houston's first rounder this year, first rounder next year, and a 4th or 5th this year. I don't know if that works on the points chart.

But this would allow Arizona to flip next year's first for kevin Kolb, essentially turning their #5 pick to our #11 pick plus Kevin Kolb. That would be huge for them.

I see Arizona trading out for this reason. It might not be the Texans, but it will be with someone. And Dallas' future first is worth less than ours because, well, we're incompetent and our future first is likely to be damn good.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 12:35 PM
Agree. I take anything that guys says with a grain of salt. He was snorting grains of something else.

Another correction...this is a fast and furious day for them

http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva

evansilva Evan Silva
To be clear, ESPN's Todd McShay mocked Patrick Peterson to 11 because he's predicting a #Texans trade up to 5 with #Cardinals.

Second Honeymoon
04-28-2011, 12:53 PM
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.

DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 12:57 PM
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....

I agree completely on the bolded above. If Gosselin's predictions come through with the QB runs than I expect teams sitting at 9-13 to have guys falling to them that they might not expect. The Cards at 5 and Cleveland at 6 are just trying to get over right now and are waiting for a haul. In fact I'd expect them to try and hit with a team like NE where 1sts are involved than with a Texans for a 2nd or the Cowboys for a 3rd. Why pass up a top player for that?

Ole Miss Texan
04-28-2011, 01:06 PM
people are seriously defending Rick Smith's track record on drafting?

Really? Really? That is just off the charts homering.

Rick has been horrible. Just because you like the guys he picked doesn't make them good. Just because a guy starts on our pathetic team doesn't make him good.

Rick has made two good moves and both are non-draft related. Traded for Matt. Signed Arian Foster as UDFA. Those are his positive moves, and they were good moves. HOWEVER, that doesn't make up for the annual failure that is the Texans draft. The last good draft we had, he wasn't even in our front office.

If Rick Smith trades up and gives up a 1st Rounder or a 2nd and a 3rd, I am going to be livid. With this late flurry on QBs, we could do just fine where we are at.

DO NOT TAKE ALDON SMITH AT #11.

which means that is exactly what they are going to do.....

That's true. Maybe just from following the draft so closely for 6 years, some of the players he has drafted are ones that I have thought highly of going in. Okoye (yes most all on here liked the pick at the time), Jacoby, Fred Bennett (played great rookie year), Zac Diles (7th round competitor), Duane Brown to finaly address LT, Steve Slaton (was awesome as a rookie and exciting), Xavier Adibi, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin (pass rush specialist), Antoine Caldwell (push OL), Glover Quin (nickle CB), James Casey (hands of glue), Kareem Jackson (need pick, need to develop), Ben Tate (will be great RB in this system), Earl Mitchell (penetrating DT), Darryl Sharpton (very good ILB) Trindon Holliday (fun exciting flyer pick for a 6th).

It's easy to look at those players and say "what have they done for us?" and I understand that. Most of these guys are ones I've followed predraft and knew about them coming into the team and liked the fits. I stand by the comment that the coaching staff hasn't done the job of making them develop into the players we need them to be.

So maybe they are all bad terrible players and stupid draft picks. I like most all of these players and I'm not a Rick Smith apologist. So what does this tell me and you? That I shouldn't be GM of the Texans and neither should most of us... even though we all think we are so freaking smart.

Corrosion
04-28-2011, 01:11 PM
Conerning the run on QB's early -

I just cant see it. None of these "top" tier QB's looks like an NFL QB from day one to me. I think teams would be better off looking for a QB early in round two.

Hell I wouldnt take Newton or Gabbert in the first round much less any of the others.Locker , Dalton and Kaepernick will probably turn out to be more productive in the NFL.


Teams may have a need for a QB , but if they arent NFL quality talents , I just cant see them being drafted that early. Someone will take a stab Im sure , they always do. But three in the top ten is asking a whole lot.

J_R
04-28-2011, 01:19 PM
May have already been posted:

The hot prospect: LSU CB Patrick Peterson.

He's probably the one player teams might consider trading up in the top 10 to get. I had Houston moving up to No. 7 to pick him in the first round in my mock draft (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/20/2011-nfl-mock-draft/index.html) last week; this week, ESPN's Todd McShay had Houston moving up to number five, dealing with Arizona, to get Peterson. I've been told in the past couple of days that Houston GM Rick Smith is loathe to use so much draft currency to move up from 11 to five or seven to get Peterson (it would likely cost him the Texans' second-round pick to do so).

Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html#ixzz1KqKygVxl

BigBull17
04-28-2011, 01:21 PM
About the only person that Rick Smith would be an upgrade over at GM is Matt Millen. To take Okoye with Willis, Revis ect..still on the board is almost inexcusable. Dunta was a runt, and you couldn't give him the money they did, but they KNEW he was coming up on free agency and they didn't try and draft a replacement a year earlier or sign a FA. Forced a Kareen Jackson pick with better players all over the place, took Cushing despite his roids use being the worst kept secret EVER, hired Frank Bush without interviewing a SINGLE ****ING PERSON(including SB winning DC Greg Williams), drafter Antwoun Molden, hung on to said Antwoun Molden despite the guy playing as many games for the Texans as I have, drafting 9,000,000,000 tight ends, gave Reeves 20 million bucks, then cut said player when he had no other options at CB, allergic to free safeties, allergic to fat defensive tackles. Did I miss anything?

Second Honeymoon is right, there is really no possible way to defend Smith.

Errant Hothy
04-28-2011, 01:23 PM
Peter King reports the Smith is "loathe" to trade up

“I’ve been told in the past couple of days,” writes King, “that Houston G.M. Rick Smith is loathe to use so much draft currency to move up from 11 to five or seven to get Peterson.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/28/peter-king-says-texans-gm-smith-is-loathe-to-trade-up/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html?xid=si_nfl

BigBull17
04-28-2011, 01:27 PM
Peter King reports the Smith is "loathe" to trade up



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/28/peter-king-says-texans-gm-smith-is-loathe-to-trade-up/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html?xid=si_nfl

I'm "loathe" to trust him with making the damn picks. They just don't want to risk spending money. Just stand pat and take Aldon Smith. We are the most transparent team in the freaking world.

May have already been posted:

The hot prospect: LSU CB Patrick Peterson.

He's probably the one player teams might consider trading up in the top 10 to get. I had Houston moving up to No. 7 to pick him in the first round in my mock draft (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/20/2011-nfl-mock-draft/index.html) last week; this week, ESPN's Todd McShay had Houston moving up to number five, dealing with Arizona, to get Peterson. I've been told in the past couple of days that Houston GM Rick Smith is loathe to use so much draft currency to move up from 11 to five or seven to get Peterson (it would likely cost him the Texans' second-round pick to do so).

Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/28/nfl-draft-preview/index.html#ixzz1KqKygVxl

The gap is pretty big, but Smith wouldn't know his elbow from his asshole as far as this whole draft doohickie thing is concerned.

Ole Miss Texan
04-28-2011, 01:32 PM
I was a big fan of Jacoby and have always wanted him to succeed but the last season or two, I've gotten tired of his attitude and dropped balls/fumbles. I truly hope the light goes off in his head though.

With that said, let's see how the other WRs have faired that were drafted immediately behind him:

1. Jacoby Jones - 96 rec; 1,229 yards; 9 TDs
2. Yamon Figurs - 5 rec; 103 yards; 1 TD (on his sixth team)
3. Laurent Robinson - 89 rec; 1,000 yards; 4 TDs (on his second team)
4. Jason Hill - 51 rec; 661 yards; 5 TDs (on his second team)
5. James Jones - 149 rec; 2,069 yards; 13 TDs
6. Mike Sims-Walker - 122 rec; 1,648 yards; 14 TDs
7. Paul Williams - 1 rec; 7 yards; 0 TDs (on his second team)
8. Johnnie Lee Higgins - 57 rec; 779 yards; 4 TDs
9. Isaiah Stanback - 5 rec; 46 yards; 0 TDs (on his third team)

I would say James Jones and Mike Sims-Walker are the only two that have clearly outperformed Jacoby. Sims-Walker doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville. James Jones on the other hand has done very well alongside Gred Jennings, a great WR. Jacoby here has Andre Johnson who has caught an amazing 362 receptions since JJ has been in the league. That compares to the 277 receptions that Jennings has caught in the same period. This doesn't take into account Jacoby's ability on STs which was a big reason why we drafted him. Correct me if I'm wrong (because I really don't know) but I don't think James Jones is a returner and I know MSW isn't.

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 01:32 PM
Conerning the run on QB's early -

I just cant see it. None of these "top" tier QB's looks like an NFL QB from day one to me. I think teams would be better off looking for a QB early in round two.

Hell I wouldnt take Newton or Gabbert in the first round much less any of the others.Locker , Dalton and Kaepernick will probably turn out to be more productive in the NFL.


Teams may have a need for a QB , but if they arent NFL quality talents , I just cant see them being drafted that early. Someone will take a stab Im sure , they always do. But three in the top ten is asking a whole lot.

Your way of thinking is too practical though. About 5-6 teams need QBs. All of them are afraid that the other one is going to beat them to the punch. So the QBs have been overvalued. So they will go higher than expected...before the 2nd round. I'm not sure if you have been paying attention to Greg Cosell but he is considered perhaps to be the best talent evaluator out there. He does all the NFL Films work for Jaworski before his pregame shows. He's been around but just the last 2 seasons every NFL person out there has ackowledged this. He watches about 15 hours a tape a day and breaks down all games in the pros and has been doing it for college. Anways, he has been on 1560 and I follow him on Twitter. Here is what he has been saying

http://twitter.com/#!/gregcosell

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Many predict 8 QB in 1st 3 rounds. Need or evaluation? If it's need, i.e. desperation, teams will be disappointed. Can't sit QBs today.

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Bottom line: If CAR believes Newton will be special they have to draft him. QB supersedes all. If any reservations at all, can't draft him.

gregcosell Greg Cosell
Recent draft history suggests that highly drafted QB have early success. Big reason there will be a run on QB. Most compelling part of draft

Ole Miss Texan
04-28-2011, 01:42 PM
Let's assume the number two corner on many boards, Prince Amukamara, is available at 11. If you're Smith, you ask yourself: Would I trade Patrick Peterson for Amukamara and any one of three options at positions of need with pick number 42 in the second round -- the third wide receiver (maybe Maryland's Torrey Smith), the first safety (UCLA's Rahim Moore), or maybe the second running back (Mikel Leshoure of Illinois). That's a tough question. The gap between Peterson and the next corner would have to be huge for Houston to do that.

I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.
About the only person that Rick Smith would be an upgrade over at GM is Matt Millen. To take Okoye with Willis, Revis ect..still on the board is almost inexcusable.
LOL - it's so funny to see comments like this. People have no concept of time and easily forget things. Okoye was a highly rated player among all the draft circles and a lock to go top 10. Many mocks didn't have him falling to 10 and all of them had us taking him if he was available.

Patrick Willis and LaRon Landry were my 2 absolute favorites in that draft. There were a few of us, VERY VERY few that openly and publicly supported drafting Patrick Willis. And the few of us that did got ridiculed and called names b/c we had Demeco who was DROY and a pro bowler.

Leon Hall was talked about as the #1 CB that year virtually the whole draft process until very late in the game when Revis' stock improved. Again, there were a few of us that really liked Revis and had his name in the hat as a possibility - I loved his return abilities too. Most of the people on here wanted Leon Hall if we were to go CB.

Maybe you were one that knew all the answers but I get frustrated when 1,2,5 years down the road people don't really put things in the context that they were at the time. Sorry to rant, it's not necessarily directed at you. :)

BigBull17
04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.

LOL - it's so funny to see comments like this. People have no concept of time and easily forget things. Okoye was a highly rated player among all the draft circles and a lock to go top 10. Many mocks didn't have him falling to 10 and all of them had us taking him if he was available.

Patrick Willis and LaRon Landry were my 2 absolute favorites in that draft. There were a few of us, VERY VERY few that openly and publicly supported drafting Patrick Willis. And the few of us that did got ridiculed and called names b/c we had Demeco who was DROY and a pro bowler.

Leon Hall was talked about as the #1 CB that year virtually the whole draft process until very late in the game when Revis' stock improved. Again, there were a few of us that really liked Revis and had his name in the hat as a possibility - I loved his return abilities too. Most of the people on here wanted Leon Hall if we were to go CB.

Maybe you were one that knew all the answers but I get frustrated when 1,2,5 years down the road people don't really put things in the context that they were at the time. Sorry to rant, it's not necessarily directed at you. :)

I was one of the Wilis guys. I wanted no part of a 19 year old DT. None.

The1ApplePie
04-28-2011, 01:55 PM
I would gladly trade our 2nd round pick and Prince Amukamara for Patrick Peterson. But that's not what I'm worried about b/c I wouldn't draft Prince at 11. Would I trade Cam Jordan/JJ Watt plus a 2nd rounder for Patrick? That's what I have a hard time doing.

Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 02:01 PM
I was a big fan of Jacoby and have always wanted him to succeed but the last season or two, I've gotten tired of his attitude and dropped balls/fumbles. I truly hope the light goes off in his head though.

With that said, let's see how the other WRs have faired that were drafted immediately behind him:

1. Jacoby Jones - 96 rec; 1,229 yards; 9 TDs
2. Yamon Figurs - 5 rec; 103 yards; 1 TD (on his sixth team)
3. Laurent Robinson - 89 rec; 1,000 yards; 4 TDs (on his second team)
4. Jason Hill - 51 rec; 661 yards; 5 TDs (on his second team)
5. James Jones - 149 rec; 2,069 yards; 13 TDs
6. Mike Sims-Walker - 122 rec; 1,648 yards; 14 TDs
7. Paul Williams - 1 rec; 7 yards; 0 TDs (on his second team)
8. Johnnie Lee Higgins - 57 rec; 779 yards; 4 TDs
9. Isaiah Stanback - 5 rec; 46 yards; 0 TDs (on his third team)

I would say James Jones and Mike Sims-Walker are the only two that have clearly outperformed Jacoby. Sims-Walker doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville. James Jones on the other hand has done very well alongside Gred Jennings, a great WR. Jacoby here has Andre Johnson who has caught an amazing 362 receptions since JJ has been in the league. That compares to the 277 receptions that Jennings has caught in the same period. This doesn't take into account Jacoby's ability on STs which was a big reason why we drafted him. Correct me if I'm wrong (because I really don't know) but I don't think James Jones is a returner and I know MSW isn't.
I don't really see how it's fair to discount Sims-Walker's production because he "doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville" (even though he does in Mike Thomas), while James Jones doesn't get credit for producing better numbers while having to share targets with Jennings, Driver, and Finley.

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 02:04 PM
Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.

1. Jordan is very likely BPA at 11
2. Smith and Williams have both expressed reservations playing in a 3-4
3. Williams is a FA after this year
4. We have no depth at DE

HoustonFrog
04-28-2011, 02:12 PM
The biggest wrench I see in the trade up for Peterson..besides giving up too much..is Wade. Wade was always a big believer in Dallas that you have to build your 3-4 through your line and with the pressure off the edge and up front you improve the secondary. So with that said and him having the keys to the D I'd think he'd like his pick of DE/OLB and then they go DB/Safety in the 2nd.

HOU-TEX
04-28-2011, 02:13 PM
1. Jordan is very likely BPA at 11
2. Smith and Williams have both expressed reservations playing in a 3-4
3. Williams is a FA after this year
4. We have no depth at DE

Hey nero, if you has a choice between Smith and Quinn which would you take? I can't make up my mind. I think Quinn's the better player, but I'm sure the Texans are worried about this tumor he had.

Mr teX
04-28-2011, 02:14 PM
That's true. Maybe just from following the draft so closely for 6 years, some of the players he has drafted are ones that I have thought highly of going in. Okoye (yes most all on here liked the pick at the time), Jacoby, Fred Bennett (played great rookie year), Zac Diles (7th round competitor), Duane Brown to finaly address LT, Steve Slaton (was awesome as a rookie and exciting), Xavier Adibi, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin (pass rush specialist), Antoine Caldwell (push OL), Glover Quin (nickle CB), James Casey (hands of glue), Kareem Jackson (need pick, need to develop), Ben Tate (will be great RB in this system), Earl Mitchell (penetrating DT), Darryl Sharpton (very good ILB) Trindon Holliday (fun exciting flyer pick for a 6th).

It's easy to look at those players and say "what have they done for us?" and I understand that. Most of these guys are ones I've followed predraft and knew about them coming into the team and liked the fits. I stand by the comment that the coaching staff hasn't done the job of making them develop into the players we need them to be.

So maybe they are all bad terrible players and stupid draft picks. I like most all of these players and I'm not a Rick Smith apologist. So what does this tell me and you? That I shouldn't be GM of the Texans and neither should most of us... even though we all think we are so freaking smart.

This post right here & the bolded in particular pretty much sums up my feelings towards all these arm chair coaches & GM's in here who just "knew" this or that...

nero THE zero
04-28-2011, 02:23 PM
Hey nero, if you has a choice between Smith and Quinn which would you take? I can't make up my mind. I think Quinn's the better player, but I'm sure the Texans are worried about this tumor he had.

I like Quinn infinitely better than Smith. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, including from CnD, the tumor shouldn't be much of a concern. Considering that, Quinn's superior production, versatility, and athleticism make him exponentially more attractive to me.

ToxicButt
04-28-2011, 02:27 PM
I am terrified but certain that the Texans will take Smith over Quinn.

Errant Hothy
04-28-2011, 02:28 PM
I am terrified but certain that the Texans will take Smith over Quinn.

I am as well.

Ole Miss Texan
04-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Why?

DE is the only place the Texans actually have quality starters at.

They have no:

Outside rushers
Nose Tackles
Safeties
No. 1 corner

I'd put No. 2 WR as a bigger need than DE.
I'm not convinced Antonio Smith is a franchise 3-4DE. Everyone dismisses the need b/c "he's played it at Arizona". I actually like Mario on one end and Jordan/Watt on the other as our longterm fixtures. Smith moves in to DT on passing downs. Leaving Watt-Smith-Mitchell-Mario with Barwin or Anderson or Rookie OLB moving up to the line and rushing from a Joker position.

If we stay at 11 and take Jordan/Watt we have the 2nd rounder for a good pass rusher. Or we can move up into late first and get "Wade's favorite OLB" whoever that may be.. I'm hoping Brooks Reed.
I don't really see how it's fair to discount Sims-Walker's production because he "doesn't really have any other WRs that draw that many balls away from him in Jacksonville" (even though he does in Mike Thomas), while James Jones doesn't get credit for producing better numbers while having to share targets with Jennings, Driver, and Finley.
My last paragraph I just wanted to address their respective situations. Wasn't trying to discount either's production because I believe both have outperformed Jacoby's. I wouldn't doubt that if Jacoby was playing for the Jags, he would have seen more receptions and TDs though.

Mike Thomas:
2010: 66 rec; 820 yds; 4 TDs
2009: 48 rec; 453 yds; 1 TD

Kevin Walter:
2010: 51 rec; 621 yds; 5 TDs
2009: 53 rec; 611 yds; 2 TDs
2008: 60 rec; 899 yds; 8 TDs
2007: 65 rec; 800 yds; 4 TDs

Don't forget Andre Johnson's 100+ receptions/year...

HOU-TEX
04-28-2011, 02:29 PM
I like Quinn infinitely better than Smith. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, including from CnD, the tumor shouldn't be much of a concern. Considering that, Quinn's superior production, versatility, and athleticism make him exponentially more attractive to me.

Thanks. It's going to be an interesting evening. Lookin forward to it

The1ApplePie
04-28-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm not convinced Antonio Smith is a franchise 3-4DE. Everyone dismisses the need b/c "he's played it at Arizona". I actually like Mario on one end and Jordan/Watt on the other as our longterm fixtures. Smith moves in to DT on passing downs. Leaving Watt-Smith-Mitchell-Mario with Barwin or Anderson or Rookie OLB moving up to the line and rushing from a Joker position.

If we stay at 11 and take Jordan/Watt we have the 2nd rounder for a good pass rusher. Or we can move up into late first and get "Wade's favorite OLB" whoever that may be.. I'm hoping Brooks Reed.

I think the Texans will be able to get plenty of depth at DE in free agency, I see Marcus Spears as a lock to sign.

You could roll the dice and take a DE in the first and hope Reed, Houston, or even Bowers fall into the 2nd, I agree

gafftop
04-28-2011, 02:59 PM
The Texans can't seriously be thinking about Aldon Smith at 11 can they?
Inexperienced, a project, played one year?, great potential... BS, seems like another pick where Smith wants to show how smart he is. Like Okoye, barwin, etc lots of upside potential. That is what you say when they really haven't done anything. Even in his highlights I don't think he looks good.
I would try and trade up for Peterson (especially if they plan on Smith at 11) if he falls to 5 mainly because he is probably talented enough that even the Texans may not be able to screw him up.

thunderkyss
04-28-2011, 03:07 PM
I was a big fan of Jacoby and have always wanted him to succeed but the last season or two, I've gotten tired of his attitude and dropped balls/fumbles. I truly hope the light goes off in his head though.

I remember back in 2006, when we were arguing Andre's greatness, because he had a propensity to drop balls.

Seems like just yesterday.

Brisco_County
04-28-2011, 03:09 PM
Rumors that Houston may be talking to Cleveland about moving up to #6 if Miller or Peterson are available.

Houston reportedly is trying to move up from No. 11 to take Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller or LSU cornerback Patrick Peterson. Miller might be unreachable for the Texans, but Peterson could still be on the board at No. 5 (Arizona).

Link (http://www.theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/16666/Browns-are-talking-with-teams-about-trading-down/Default.aspx)

The Bills are interested in QB's too, so Miller may get past #3, but there's no way he's getting past Arizona at #5. It looks like Peterson would be the most realistic option for trading up.

Edit: Just thought of something: We probably have some players who do not fit Wade's system, but are still a good trade value. I won't be surprised if we see a starter traded in a deal to move up.

False Start
04-28-2011, 03:19 PM
All I know is I really dont want the Texans to draft Aldon Smith. I'm just seeing visions of Vernon Gholston. :hide:

badboy
04-28-2011, 03:19 PM
Rumors that Houston may be talking to Cleveland about moving up to #6 if Miller or Peterson are available.



Link (http://www.theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/16666/Browns-are-talking-with-teams-about-trading-down/Default.aspx)

The Bills are interested in QB's too, so Miller may get past #3, but there's no way he's getting past Arizona at #5. It looks like Peterson would be the most realistic option for trading up.

Edit: Just thought of something: We probably have some players who do not fit Wade's system, but are still a good trade value. I won't be surprised if we see a starter traded in a deal to move up.McShay has Peterson at #11, http://www.sbnation.com/2011-nfl-draft/2011/4/28/2139298/todd-mcshay-mock-draft-2011

Brisco_County
04-28-2011, 03:21 PM
McShay has Peterson at #11, http://www.sbnation.com/2011-nfl-draft/2011/4/28/2139298/todd-mcshay-mock-draft-2011

In my opinion, Peterson's too good to fall that far.

thunderkyss
04-28-2011, 03:24 PM
In my opinion, Peterson's too good to fall that far.

That's only part of the equation. Teams will look at needs as well.

Second Honeymoon
04-28-2011, 03:29 PM
The Texans can't seriously be thinking about Aldon Smith at 11 can they?
Inexperienced, a project, played one year?, great potential... BS, seems like another pick where Smith wants to show how smart he is. Like Okoye, barwin, etc lots of upside potential. That is what you say when they really haven't done anything. Even in his highlights I don't think he looks good.
I would try and trade up for Peterson (especially if they plan on Smith at 11) if he falls to 5 mainly because he is probably talented enough that even the Texans may not be able to screw him up.

they LOVE Aldon, just liked they LOVED Kareem, and just like they LOVED Okoye.

beerlover
04-28-2011, 03:34 PM
they LOVE Aldon, just liked they LOVED Kareem, and just like they LOVED Okoye.

if they loved Kareem I think they also must love Prince Amukamara :heart:

gafftop
04-28-2011, 03:49 PM
A. Smith looks like a miniwilliams and I am sorry but I don't think that Mario is super. Anybody find any highlights of Smith, I know I looked at them and I am still looking for a highlight. Not really very impressive. I do hope there are some other not so bright draft choosers out there especially the ones that need QB's. This is our greatest hope to get Peterson. Just think if the Texans had lost the last game instead of won. Sigh........ but then they wouldn't be the Texans.

J_R
04-28-2011, 04:07 PM
A. Smith looks like a miniwilliams and I am sorry but I don't think that Mario is super. Anybody find any highlights of Smith, I know I looked at them and I am still looking for a highlight. Not really very impressive. I do hope there are some other not so bright draft choosers out there especially the ones that need QB's. This is our greatest hope to get Peterson. Just think if the Texans had lost the last game instead of won. Sigh........ but then they wouldn't be the Texans.

Leave those kids alone! Those kids were battlefightin' their tails off out there! http://www.clutchfans.net/bbs/images/smilies/tongue.gif

The1ApplePie
04-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Leave those kids alone! Those kids were battlefightin' their tails off out there! http://www.clutchfans.net/bbs/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Say what you want about him, but Capers knew how to tank a season.

steelbtexan
04-28-2011, 04:56 PM
I was one of the Wilis guys. I wanted no part of a 19 year old DT. None.

Me too

Now Rick and Gary are still looking for an impact LB.

I tried to get on board with the OkOye pick and thought maybe Rick and Gary knew something the rest of us didn't know taking a 19 yr old DT.

Dumb move

maddogmrb
04-28-2011, 05:52 PM
The only way Rick Smith would move up would be if someone offered him a 2nd round pick to trade places ......