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GP
06-21-2011, 05:59 PM
Players believe they can justify a 48 percent take because of the projected revenue growth, as well as built-in mechanisms that require teams to spend close to 100 percent of the salary cap, a source told ESPN.com's John Clayton. The mandatory minimum spending increase is an element that concerns lower-revenue clubs, sources say.

For example, if the 2011 salary cap were to be at $120 million, a team would have to have a cash payroll of close to $120 million. In the previous collective bargaining agreement, the team payroll floor was less than 90 percent of the salary cap and was only in cap figures, not cash.

The higher floor proposal could cause some problems for the lower revenue teams such as the Cincinnati Bengals and the Buffalo Bills. Along with the salary cap, teams have to pay an average of about $27 million a year in benefits.

So McNair would have to actually spend up the leftover money he hasn't been spending??? Delicious.

I always heard, back in the last gasping days of the Casserly era, how once he just got out of that gosh-darned "cap hell" that we'd see McNair spend the newfound money and grab us some free agents and make splashes in FA.

Well, we've got a hardass GM now--who isn't Mr. Happy Face, apparently--who is now structuring conservative-minded contracts and only bringing in players we can lowball and get for lower money and better terms for the Texans, and what happens? Bob ain't spending the leftovers.

Poor Bob McNair. He's possibly going to have to spend all of a designated amount of money now. :(

I hope Bum gives him a couple of Bum's Tums chewable pills to ease the indigestion.

GP
06-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Another one of my favorite NFL Lockout Tweeters is Andrew Brandt.

Here's something he crafted at about 5 a.m. Central Time:

Up-To-Date Analysis Based on Latest Developments (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Traces-of-a-deal.html)

As the optimistic drumbeat continues towards eventual resolution of the long-running labor dispute between the NFL Owners and Players, we are starting to hear reports of proposed deal points about what may be part of a settlement of Brady v. NFL and an eventual Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA).

I am optimistic but cautiously so. Again, until everything is agreed to, nothing is agreed to. However, there appears to be some momentum.

As first reported by my colleague at ESPN and someone trusted by both Owners and Players -- Chris Mortensen -- there are proposed deal terms being discussed that reflect key issues analyzed in this space in recent months.

The negotiating team for the Owners presented the basic deal terms to the full membership yesterday in Chicago, with a goal of taking a positive response to a meeting with the Players outside of Boston today. The following details have started to emerge. Let’s take a look.

Revenue split

While the Players have maintained their position for a 50/50 split of all NFL revenues – simplifying the math and setting aside discussions of credits, set-offs, expenses, etc. – the Owners’ offer has steadily climbed from a percentage in the low forties to a present offer of approximately 48%. These two percentage points may end up being the crux of this two-year negotiation, an amount worth $200 million this year and perhaps as much as $400 million by the end of the deal.

Using a present revenue total of $9.3 billion, 48% of that number would result in a Player allocation of $4.464 billion or a team Cap starting in 2011 of just under $140 million. The key would be how much of that number is allocated to salaries and how much to benefits. My sense is the player cost allocation may be around $121 million per team with the other $19-20 million toward benefits.

The Cap and its formulas and allocations are explained here. (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Key-to-a-CBA-tip-of-the-Cap.html)

As I have said for a year, the revenue split is the issue from which all others flow. It appears to be headed towards a 52/48 split between the Owners and Players.

Downside/Upside

Within the ultimate question of “Who gets how much?” to be “fair” in future years, there must be downside and upside protection.

In the CBA that expired in March, there was a mechanism called the Cash Adjustment Mechanism (CAM) which credited or debited future team Caps depending on whether Player spending exceeded or fell short of certain thresholds. In most years, the CAM adjustment was an addition to future Caps, meaning there was less spending on players than the established threshold.

I explained the CAM mechanism here when almost $5 million was added to each team’s Cap in 2009 due to it being the last Capped year.

Owners and Players are talking about a similar mechanism now that protects both sides through a formula similar to CAM. With this formula, it is expected that the Player share of revenue will not dip below 46.5% during the life of the CBA.

Cash Minimum

I have always felt that – for the Players – this is the most important issue of all. Having managed an NFL Salary Cap for nine years, I am well aware that a Cap can be molded and massaged to show whatever a team wants to show. Cap minimums can be reached using various mechanisms that eat up a team’s Cap while providing an excuse to agents and players not to spend.

Cash is king to Players. In March, the Owners offered a 90% cash minimum, which I thought was the most meaningful part of their offer. They have reportedly raised that offer to 95% or even higher. Were I advising Players, I would try to push that Cash minimum as close to 100% as possible.

I would think this potential concession may be receiving the most resistance among ownership.

This would reward teams with solid front offices and savvy “pay as you go” Cap management. With the Packers, I always tried to match our cash spending with our Cap, paying as we went rather than racking up potentially large future “dead money”. That style of management will be rewarded with the proposed new system.

There is a lot more if you click the link to the story. I just pasted some of the contents, not all of it.

This guy and Chris Mortensen are really good at actually providing a journalistic voice to the lockout and the CBA talks.

infantrycak
06-22-2011, 12:20 PM
So McNair would have to actually spend up the leftover money he hasn't been spending??? Delicious.

Provide anything other than a MB post that says McNair hasn't been spending in the top 10 of the league every year.

CloakNNNdagger
06-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Just as we have have a glimmer of hope the the season may not get totally screwed up, a new statement comes out that slaps us back to reality.

League won’t lift lockout based only on an agreement in principle (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/22/league-wont-lift-lockout-based-only-on-an-agreement-in-principle/)

Tuesday’s flurry of news and nuggets regarding the labor situation included plenty of broad-brush red meat for casual fans. Unfortunately, a decent amount of nuanced and esoteric details may have gotten lost in the process.

Here’s the most important one we’ve seen, so far.

In comments that, as best we can tell, were noticed only by Clark Judge of CBSSports.com and Howard Balzer of 101sports.com and The Sports Exchange, NFL general counsel Jeff Pash made it clear that the lockout won’t end with the negotiation of an agreement in principle. Instead, the doors will be unlocked only after the proverbial i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed.

“We would have to make sure the documents were fully drafted and approved, then both parties would have to ratify the agreement,” Pash said, per Judge. “We would have to do it, and the players would have to do it. There is some litigation that has to be dealt with, and so we would have to go before the various courts, and that would obviously [have to happen] on a quickened basis, as the court would hear us and have those lawsuits disposed of and resolved. Then we could open up. . . .

“If both sides are going to commit to certain positions and clubs are going to be signing players, large sums of money are going to be changing hands and players are going to commit to multi-year agreements, you would want to have this confirmed — not just in a general way but down to some fairly specific details. [Because the doors would be opened] you’re not going to want to close them again for either side.”

We listed last week the steps that would be required to take the deal from handshake to grave, and we opined at the time that all of the steps couldn’t be accomplished before the season starts, based in part on my own experiences with the settlement of class actions. Even if the parties can somehow expedite the process, it’s going to take a lot of work to turn things around in time for the first two teams who head to camp on July 22 — the Bears and Rams — to have a fair shake at signing free agents and/or their rookies.

The message to all parties? Get to work. Come early. Stay late. Meet every day. Order food in. Brew coffee.

Tell the lawyers to start drawing up the papers. Alert the judges and arrange for hearing times. If there’s any chance of the lockout being lifted by the middle of July, the foundation for finalizing the deal needs to be put in place now.

It also would help to have an agreement in principle. We’ve previously predicted that the parties will get to the handshake stage by June 30. Given everything that needs to happen from that point forward, June 30 could be too late.

Double Barrel
06-22-2011, 01:53 PM
Provide anything other than a MB post that says McNair hasn't been spending in the top 10 of the league every year.

We should never let facts get in the way of a good rant. :tearup:

Marcus
06-22-2011, 02:23 PM
Provide anything other than a MB post that says McNair hasn't been spending in the top 10 of the league every year.

:cricket:


(cak, you're on a roll today)

steelbtexan
06-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Provide anything other than a MB post that says McNair hasn't been spending in the top 10 of the league every year.

Didn't Brandt say Mechanisms can be used to eat up the cap. Thereby giving owners excuses why they cant spend $$$$ because of the cap to players/agents/fans.

Billionaire BoBBY would never play that game would he?

Marcus
06-22-2011, 03:30 PM
Didn't Brandt say Mechanisms can be used to eat up the cap. Thereby giving owners excuses why they cant spend $$$$ because of the cap to players/agents/fans.

Billionaire BoBBY would never play that game would he?

Either he didn't really say that, or you've completely misinterpreted what he said.

Dutchrudder
06-22-2011, 03:33 PM
Either he didn't really say that, or you've completely misinterpreted what he said.

He's referring to: "I have always felt that – for the Players – this is the most important issue of all. Having managed an NFL Salary Cap for nine years, I am well aware that a Cap can be molded and massaged to show whatever a team wants to show. Cap minimums can be reached using various mechanisms that eat up a team’s Cap while providing an excuse to agents and players not to spend."

But the author doesn't detail how they do it. I'd love some more detail on this. frontloading/re-designing an existing contract is the only thing I can think of that would adjust the numbers.

gary
06-22-2011, 03:46 PM
Anyone hear how the meetings are going today?

infantrycak
06-22-2011, 03:57 PM
Didn't Brandt say Mechanisms can be used to eat up the cap. Thereby giving owners excuses why they cant spend $$$$ because of the cap to players/agents/fans.

Billionaire BoBBY would never play that game would he?

There are means of manipulating the cap with what are called Likely To Be Earned or Not Likely To Be Earned Bonuses plus the issues of dead money. But that is irrelevant as the Texans have consistently had one of the top payrolls (hard money actually paid out) in the NFL during their existence. They are considered a big money/big market team rather than tightwads as was being asserted.

That doesn't mean I am saying they have spent wisely. Just they have spent.

steelbtexan
06-22-2011, 05:09 PM
There are means of manipulating the cap with what are called Likely To Be Earned or Not Likely To Be Earned Bonuses plus the issues of dead money. But that is irrelevant as the Texans have consistently had one of the top payrolls (hard money actually paid out) in the NFL during their existence. They are considered a big money/big market team rather than tightwads as was being asserted.

That doesn't mean I am saying they have spent wisely. Just they have spent.

Not disagreeing with you about $$$$ being well spent.

The hard $$$$ thing was probably true during the Casserly yrs. I dont know about the Smith yrs.

I wish there was a link so I could compare hard $$$$ in the Smith vs Casserly regimes.

Thorn
06-22-2011, 06:44 PM
I'm already thinking about how to spend my Sundays this fall without football. And I actually like some of my ideas.

gary
06-22-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm already thinking about how to spend my Sundays this fall without football. And I actually like some of my ideas.I think there will a season very soon.

CloakNNNdagger
06-22-2011, 08:37 PM
I haven't seen anyone talking about this (unless I missed a post), but there appears to be negotiats that has all but included an agreement for having a16 week Thusday Night Football schedule. I can see good and bad with this move.

steelbtexan
06-22-2011, 08:43 PM
I haven't seen anyone talking about this (unless I missed a post), but there appears to be negotiats that has all but included an agreement for having a16 week Thusday Night Football schedule. I can see good and bad with this move.

This is something the players hate.

It will make FF harder. But it's great for the fans.

Thursday night football its gonna be a party so lets get it started. LOL

gary
06-22-2011, 08:44 PM
I haven't seen anyone talking about this (unless I missed a post), but there appears to be negotiats that has all but included an agreement for having a16 week Thusday Night Football schedule. I can see good and bad with this move.That would start in 2012 if I am not mistaking.

GP
06-22-2011, 09:10 PM
Provide anything other than a MB post that says McNair hasn't been spending in the top 10 of the league every year.

He ought to be spending in the Top 1 in this fan's eyes.

And, btw, no salary cap for head coach and other staff. Of course, I suppose Richard Smith being hired as our d-coord was strictly based on his prowess and track record as a defensive genius in the NFL. Right?

badboy
06-22-2011, 09:22 PM
From strictly a business standpoint the lockout keeps the players nose to grindstone. Owners seem to have upper hand and should do little to lose that.

beerlover
06-22-2011, 10:02 PM
I doubt players who got their education feel that way & if all the players had done the same, shoe would be on the other foot.

badboy
06-22-2011, 10:08 PM
I doubt players who got their education feel that way & if all the players had done the same, shoe would be on the other foot.Are you saying that a player's education gives them viable alternatives to NFL? I disagree if that is the case. Nothing compares to
NFLcareer. "Hey don't mess with me, I'll go be a communication expert."

CloakNNNdagger
06-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Greed led to the lockout. Greed will lead to the end of the lockout.

CloakNNNdagger
06-22-2011, 10:16 PM
That would start in 2012 if I am not mistaking.

You are correct. The original "start date" was to be 2014, but the final agreement is shooting for 2012.

gary
06-22-2011, 10:24 PM
You are correct. The original "start date" was to be 2014, but the final agreement is shooting for 2012.I thought so.

GP
06-23-2011, 12:25 AM
New round of tweets form Mortensen and Andrew Brandt.

link: tweets
(http://twitter.com/#!/espn/nfl)
Start at the bottom and read upward.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/mort-tweet-B-1.jpg

GP
06-23-2011, 12:27 AM
Section 2, the continued tweets...

Start at bottom, yada yada yada...

link: tweets (http://twitter.com/#!/espn/nfl)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/gpshafer_1976/Mort-Tweet-B-2.jpg

El Tejano
06-23-2011, 10:43 AM
The title of this thread keeps tricking me.

Dutchrudder
06-23-2011, 10:59 AM
I haven't seen anyone talking about this (unless I missed a post), but there appears to be negotiats that has all but included an agreement for having a16 week Thusday Night Football schedule. I can see good and bad with this move.

Let's make a list!

Pros:
Too many games on Sunday go unseen due to overlap. This will be one more game a week that you will be able to watch.
Another opportunity for a nationally televised game.
More money for the NFL to add to the pie.
Possibly more national exposure for the Texans.
Always have an excuse not to watch Grey's Anatomy with your girlfriend.


Cons:
Only 5 days rest for players who had a game the previous Sunday.
NFL network costs you extra money.
The Texans never win Thursday night games.
NCAA football is on Thursday nights.
Fantasy leagues will have to make their rosters by Thursday every week.

El Tejano
06-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Let's make a list!

Pros:
Too many games on Sunday go unseen due to overlap. This will be one more game a week that you will be able to watch. They will need to make the announcing better because the play by play sux right now. Also this will begin to be redundant.
Another opportunity for a nationally televised game.
More money for the NFL to add to the pie.
Possibly more national exposure for the Texans.Yeah right, you're going to get more Jets, Eagles,Patriots and Cowboys games 3 to 5 times in one season like MNF does right now. We will only be able to get on if we are playing those teams
Always have an excuse not to watch Grey's Anatomy with your girlfriend.


Cons:
Only 5 days rest for players who had a game the previous Sunday. It would be fair if all teams have to play one Thursday.
NFL network costs you extra money.
The Texans never win Thursday night games. WRONG! Our win on Thursday night came against Denver in 2008 when Mario hushed the critics.
NCAA football is on Thursday nights. Teams that matter don't play on that day!
Fantasy leagues will have to make their rosters by Thursday every week. Yeah but that wont be everyone every week.

My thoughts in Blue.

Ryan
06-23-2011, 11:54 AM
Let's make a list!

Pros:
Too many games on Sunday go unseen due to overlap. This will be one more game a week that you will be able to watch.
Another opportunity for a nationally televised game.
More money for the NFL to add to the pie.
Possibly more national exposure for the Texans.
Always have an excuse not to watch Grey's Anatomy with your girlfriend.


Cons:
Only 5 days rest for players who had a game the previous Sunday.
NFL network costs you extra money.
The Texans never win Thursday night games.
NCAA football is on Thursday nights.
Fantasy leagues will have to make their rosters by Thursday every week.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aVKRIa9chE

disaacks3
06-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Cons:
Only 5 days rest for players who had a game the previous Sunday.
NFL network costs you extra money.
The Texans never win Thursday night games.
NCAA football is on Thursday nights.
Fantasy leagues will have to make their rosters by Thursday every week.

Cons: It's a WHOLE lot easier for a FAN to travel for Sunday/Monday games. Not so easy for Thurs night. Had to take off three days for Philly game last year.

gary
06-23-2011, 01:32 PM
ricklandon11‎ RT @mnsportszone: A lot of #NFL players tweeting they think the #Lockout end is near!!!

rhiannonmyee‎ RT @EffYou_PayMe: Are You Ready For Some Football?? Experts Say NFL Lockout Closer To Being Over Than We Thought

HOU-TEX
06-23-2011, 01:43 PM
ricklandon11‎ RT @mnsportszone: A lot of #NFL players tweeting they think the #Lockout end is near!!!

rhiannonmyee‎ RT @EffYou_PayMe: Are You Ready For Some Football?? Experts Say NFL Lockout Closer To Being Over Than We Thought

Which players are saying that? I currently follow around 160 players and haven't seen tweets like that.

I did see PFT post saying players were told the deal isn't close to being done. Which could very well be a farce in order to calm things down a bit

gary
06-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Which players are saying that? I currently follow around 160 players and haven't seen tweets like that.

I did see PFT post saying players were told the deal isn't close to being done. Which could very well be a farce in order to calm things down a bitI am just posting what I am reading there are a lot of rumors out there pick who you want to believe.

HOU-TEX
06-23-2011, 02:06 PM
I am just posting what I am reading there are a lot of rumors out there pick who you want to believe.

I hear ya. Thought you might've seen some tweets from a player that's all

gary
06-23-2011, 02:17 PM
I like believing the ones who are saying it's almost over lol.

CloakNNNdagger
06-23-2011, 03:28 PM
Smith needs to zip it!

A new report (http://www.wlky.com/sports/28334871/detail.html#ixzz1Q8HrfgNJ)came out...............the wording scares the Pjeez out of me:

"We are headed in the right direction," an unidentified source told ESPN on Thursday. "There is a desire on both sides to reach an agreement sooner rather than later."

Multiple reports say the sides are close to finalizing a deal and would like to do so before the July 4 holiday weekend. Yahoo! Sports reported the 2011 season will begin on or around July 15.

CloakNNNdagger
06-23-2011, 03:40 PM
Muppet's probably a pretty accurate description given to Smith in this photo by a lead Kansas City Chiefs blogger.

http://www.bostonsportspulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/de-smith-face.jpg

NFL Lockout Update: Hey De Smith, Shut The Hell Up (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/06/23/nfl-lockout-update-hey-de-smith-shut-the-hell-up/)

Hey De Smith. You look like a muppet. Shut up and get a deal done.

The NFL lockout is still going strong despite recent reports of progress at the bargaining table.

ESPN is reporting that the latest round of super secret talks at an undisclosed location inside a secret bunker outside of Boston have wrapped up for the week. ESPN’s Sal Paolantonio reports via an unnamed source that talks are heading in the “right direction.” Talks are expected to resume next week, though both sides are expected to continue working and hammering out details until that time.

Now that we got the good news out of the way, Pro Football Talk is reporting via an unnamed source (surprise) that NFLPA/Trade Association representative DeMaurice Smith told the players that a deal is not close and to “not believe the hype.”

Well damn.

First of all, and I am sympathetic to the players, Smith needs to shut the hell up. For a couple of weeks now, both sides have been talking and we have been getting nothing but positive reports that things were moving in the right direction. For the first time in a long time we haven’t had to hear either side taking shots at the other in public. We haven’t had to hear any pro union/player or pro owner spin campaigns.

Now, when it seems things might finally be happening, Smith has to go off and run his mouth. He knew damn well his “message” to players would leak out. I am not sure what his motive is but I can tell you his actions, if he did indeed do this, are not productive.

This is a tense situation and the last thing we need is one side or the other to start shooting off their mouth in a sly attempt to try to gain some leverage, whether it be in the negotiations or with the court of public opinion. While Smith’s words weren’t a direct shot at the owners, they were not helpful to the effort to keep the mood positive and the talks focused.
I’ve been very supportive of the players throughout this entire process. If the reports I have been hearing about the potential framework of the new CBA, the players are closer to getting a fair deal than they have been at any time throughout this process.

So please, DeMaurice Smith, shut the hell up.

Dutchrudder
06-23-2011, 03:43 PM
http://www.bostonsportspulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/de-smith-face.jpg

Did anyone else read the sign on the podium as 'Porn Fans'?

I think I need a nap...

gary
06-23-2011, 03:51 PM
How about no more reporting until July first?

Thorn
06-23-2011, 08:23 PM
You know something, sorry, but I hope every damn one of them goes broke. Players and owners alike.

They can all kiss my damn ass.

CloakNNNdagger
06-23-2011, 08:29 PM
Barriers continue to crop up at every turn.


Reduction of free agency to four years may be harder than it looks (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/23/reduction-of-free-agency-to-four-years-could-may-be-harder-than-it-looks/)

Last season, after the threshold for unrestricted free agency had been moved from four years to six years, there was talk that the league didn’t plan to go back to four. We thought it was posturing, aimed only at making the players feel like they’ve secured a significant concession when the league returns to the UFA path that applied from the creation of real (mostly) free agency through 2009. So when Adam Schefter of ESPN reported that the new CBA would roll the limit back to four, it wasn’t much of a surprise.

Now here’s the surprise.

Chris Mortensen of ESPN told 101 ESPN in St. Louis that, once the free-agency frenzy commences, the owners want to have a right of first refusal as to three or four players per team. This would operate essentially as the transition tag, which provides a right to match but no compensation. And, in cases where the current team chooses to match, it means that the team that pursued the player negotiated his new contract with his old team at no charge. (In this regard, it would be wise for the new CBA to deal with the whole Steve Hutchinson “poison pill” thing.)

Also, Howard Balzer of 101 ESPN tells us that teams that didn’t apply the franchise tag to players with four or five years of service want to have the chance to do so.

As to the latter point, we’d say, “Tough crap.” Teams should have known that free agency likely would be reverting to the pre-2010 rules. And teams like the Steelers and the Ravens were smart enough to apply the franchise tag to LaMarr Woodley (pictured) and Haloti Ngata, respectively, even though neither guy has six years of service. Any owners that took a chance on the free agency rules not changing from 2010 to 2011 gambled and, apparently, lost. Thus, if they want to keep their four-year or five-year free agents, they need to pay them market value.

It’s only fair, given the manner in which teams didn’t pursue restricted free agents in 2010.

CloakNNNdagger
06-23-2011, 08:34 PM
You know something, sorry, but I hope every damn one of them goes broke. Players and owners alike.

They can all kiss my damn ass.

Thorn, Pleeeeeez Pleeeeeeez don't distract them with that offer.............next thing they'll be doing is arguing over who gets to go first!
:kubepalm::wadepalm:

gary
06-23-2011, 09:35 PM
Thorn, Pleeeeeez Pleeeeeeez don't distract them with that offer.............next thing they'll be doing is arguing over who gets to go first!
:kubepalm::wadepalm:A 50-50 CBA agreement on each butt cheek.:kubepalm::)

Malloy
06-24-2011, 02:24 AM
http://www.bostonsportspulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/de-smith-face.jpg

Did anyone else read the sign on the podium as 'Porn Fans'?

I think I need a nap...

You are not alone :)

AnthonyE
06-28-2011, 01:52 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/28/report-nfl-and-players-commit-to-four-straight-days-of-talks/

ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reports that the two sides will meet for four straight days this week in Minneapolis. That’s the longest period of sustained negotiations since the lockout started.

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/28/owners-and-players-wont-be-in-minnesota/

No owners or players are expected at this round of talks, according to Albert Breer of NFL Network. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, NFLPA* chief DeMaurice Smith, and their respective staffs will be there. So will attorneys for both sides. Breer describes it as “part of the process.”

badboy
06-28-2011, 02:17 PM
We have plenty of time before July first, don't we? Today is Tuesday and there is Wednesday, Thursday and then oh CRAP!!

gary
06-28-2011, 02:23 PM
By Monday there might be a deal.

b0ng
06-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Not disagreeing with you about $$$$ being well spent.

The hard $$$$ thing was probably true during the Casserly yrs. I dont know about the Smith yrs.

I wish there was a link so I could compare hard $$$$ in the Smith vs Casserly regimes.

It's still true, I can garuntee you that at most the Texans have had 2 years where they weren't in the top 10 in terms of payroll paid out. The teams you're thinking of are the Chiefs and the Bucs there steelb.

Allstar
06-28-2011, 08:07 PM
Good sign? Goodell, Smith fly to rookie event during labor talk (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82085155/article/good-sign-goodell-smith-fly-to-rookie-event-during-labor-talk?module=HP_headlines)

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith opened a four-day labor discussion in Minnesota, then hopped on a plane to Florida to speak to rookies.

Spokesmen for the league and the players' association confirmed Tuesday night to The Associated Press that Goodell and Smith were on the same plane from Minnesota to address players at the NFLPA-run rookie symposium. Smith asked Goodell to speak to the players Wednesday morning at the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Sarasota, Fla., and the commissioner agreed.

Goodell and Smith plan to leave Florida later Wednesday to fly back to Minneapolis and continue the labor talks, which have taken on a decidedly different look.

Goodell and Smith are accompanied only by their staffs, rather than members of each constituency, and owners and players aren't expected to directly participate, although they will remain apprised of any developments. The parties' legal teams are expected to trade proposals on the framework of a settlement, in an effort to move the process toward conclusion, and they will intensify their focus on the key issues, most notably the revenue split.

The four-day, face-to-face session will be the longest yet. The previous longest session was the first one, held May 31 through June 2 near a private airport in suburban Chicago. Subsequent meetings on New York's Long Island, Maryland's Eastern Shore and Massachusetts' South Shore each lasted two days.

The changing time frame surrounding this set of talks and the shifting cast of characters -- the first "secret" meetings only included Goodell, Smith, owners, players and U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan -- are seen as part of the process of negotiating a new agreement to end a lockout that's in its fourth month.

Boylan ran three two-day sets of court-ordered mediation between the owners and players in April and May, and he has been present for all of the more recent meetings. His chambers are located in Minneapolis.

A decision from the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, where the league appealed a district court's issuance of a lockout-lifting injunction, could come soon, too. The time frame on such decisions from an appeals court generally is 30 to 45 days, and the hearing was held June 3. However, the league and players have expressed a desire to work toward an agreement before the three-judge panel's ruling is announced.

The St. Louis Rams and Chicago Bears, who are scheduled to play in the preseason-opening Hall of Fame Game on Aug. 7, are set to open training camp just three weeks from Friday, and time is beginning to run short on the parties' negotiating teams as they look to preserve the preseason in its traditional form. Some have suggested July 15 as the deadline for that to happen.

The parties have spent the past four weeks largely discussing the revenue split, an issue that dwarfs all others. It's not just the revenue now, but also how to account for the players' take in the league's future growth, particularly when the next round of television deals are negotiated for 2014 and beyond. The idea of an "all revenue" model, which would eliminate cost credits to the owners and limit revenue projections, has bridged some differences, but the issue still hasn't been settled.

The parties broached the rookie pay system for the first time during clandestine sessions Thursday, and it also proved to be a difficult area to navigate. Last year's No. 1 overall draft pick, Rams quarterback Sam Bradford, received about $50 million guaranteed in his rookie deal, and the owners have long looked to drastically mark down price tags like this.

The numbers aren't the only issue. Finding a way to replace the market effect those contracts have on veterans and getting those high picks to free agency quicker are among the players' concerns. Currently, six-year contracts are allowed for the high first-round picks making big money.

Last week, one team executive told NFL Network that owners and players were within "striking distance" of a deal, but that nothing was close or imminent. But another involved executive said: "There are enough legitimate issues to where it could all fall down still. They're dealing with that stuff."

After last week's meeting at a beachside resort in Hull, Mass., Goodell and Smith emerged together and provided a symbolic moment in the joint effort toward a resolution.

"Someone asked me if I was optimistic -- I think we're both optimistic when we have the right people in the room," Smith said. "We know we're talking about the right issues, and we're working hard to get it done. It's extremely complicated. It requires a lot of hard work by a lot of people. But we're committed to getting something done. And we're gonna keep working at it."

Said Goodell: "We are under court order, as far as what we can discuss. Obviously we're all working hard, the players and owners were here over the last few days, and De and I were here for the entire meetings also. And it's complicated and it's complex, but we're working hard. We understand the fans' frustration, but I think both of us feel strongly that we're going to continue to work hard on it."

Goodell and Smith have been joined by Carolina Panthers owner Jerry Richardson, New York Giants owner John Mara, New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft, New York Jets fullback Tony Richardson, Baltimore Ravens cornerback Domonique Foxworth and Indianapolis Colts center Jeff Saturday, as well as Boylan, as constants in the room.

NFLPA president Kevin Mawae, who has been in some talks, attended the trade association's rookie seminar Tuesday and said roughly 170 players were participating in the event. Mawae also addressed more than 40 Tampa Bay Buccaneers players who are holding a three day minicamp at the vast IMG Academy campus, where the NFLPA event is being held.

gary
06-28-2011, 09:12 PM
I get the feeling the court is hoping for an agreement so they don't have to rule.

steelbtexan
06-28-2011, 10:12 PM
Does anybody else feel like I do?

Goddell makes me long for the Tagliabue yrs.

CBA aside, his rule changes are ruining the best sport in the world. It's almost as if he wants to take hard hits out of the game.

His leadership skills have been lacking during the CBA negs and he seems a bit power hungry as several players have pointed out during the lockout.

gary
06-28-2011, 10:22 PM
Does anybody else feel like I do?

Goddell makes me long for the Tagliabue yrs.

CBA aside, his rule changes are ruining the best sport in the world. It's almost as if he wants to take hard hits out of the game.

His leadership skills have been lacking during the CBA negs and he seems a bit power hungry as several players have pointed out during the lockout.If the rules keep changing it won't be fun anymore. He has made his safety marks or so he thinks fine but he should stop with the rule changes while is still ahead because he won't be if the rules continue to change.

JPPT1974
06-28-2011, 11:07 PM
Makes me want to have Tagliabue back. Used to like Goodell but now, not so sure. :(

GP
06-29-2011, 10:33 AM
One of my favorites, Andrew Brandt, supplying another summary of where we're at and the key issues.

Link to article (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Andrews-answers-labor-mailbag.html) (I have only given a small excerpt. Full article found at the link)


What about reports of players meeting with the lawyers?

They want to know their options. If Brady v. NFL is moving towards a settlement – as we hope it is – the Players may be making sure that they know what they would be giving up by settling the lawsuit.

And what is that? An antitrust lawsuit that could pay potentially hundreds of millions in damages if restraints such as the Draft, Cap and free agency restrictions -- no longer protected by the labor exemption without a union -- are declared illegal.

The problem for the Players is time. The case may not see a courtroom until a year from now, if that. The pressure point for the Owners would be the discovery phase, when they may be forced to show more of their financial statements, but that also could be months away at the earliest.


What about the Eighth Circuit and Judge Doty’s rulings?

My sense is all of these judges are standing down during these negotiations. Judge Doty heard arguments on May 12th; the Eighth Circuit heard arguments on June 3rd. Both may well know how they will rule but are delaying to not impose their will on what appear to be productive negotiations towards a resolution.


Is Judge Boylan still mediating between the two sides?

Boylan is there and apprising the Eighth Circuit, Judge Nelson, and Judge Doty of the status of negotiations and their momentum or lack thereof.

I am told that both sides have warmed to Boylan, who is now back to his home turf and may have a continuing role when the CBA is negotiated, perhaps in place of the judicial oversight the Owners desperately want to avoid.


What do you think football will look like without the offseason?

Offseason workout programs will be vastly reduced in new CBA.
Welcome to the future. There is one thing we know for sure about the next CBA: there will be far less of an organized offseason than in the past. With player health and safety a priority for both sides, the Owners have already offered reduced offseason programs and Organized Team Activities (OTAs) in the offseason.

Coaches will not be pleased with this new reality, as the new offseason will not look dramatically different than the locked-out one we are having now.

I have mixed feelings here: as a former team executive, teams like players tethered as much as possible in the offseason, and I provided financial incentives for them to be there (Green Bay was not the most geographically desirable place in late winter/early spring).

The reality, however, is that most players would rather be with their private trainers and/or facilities in preferred locations around the country. That is not a slight to the teams’ staff; it is the reality of the long offseason prior to the strenuous grind of the season.


When things are resolved, how will teams handle the mass of free agents?

When the bell rings for free agency, there will be 500 players that need to be addressed, and roughly the same number of undrafted free agents that will be signed. The undrafted group may be the first to sign, as teams need to fill out their rosters and position groupings.

The mechanics of the process is being negotiated. Owners have requested a Right of First Refusal (ROFR) -- similar to a Transition tag -- for a couple of their own free agents, but Players are resisting this potential hitch in true free agency. In practice, however, if the player has good feelings about the incumbent team and the team has a good relationship with the agent, the team usually has a de facto ROFR anyway.

Perhaps there will be a 3-5 day grace period where teams can talk to their own free agents but not others. This would essentially reverse the clock back to late February, pretending we are at the normal early-March start to free agency.

With the potential frenzy and craziness, this would present an opportunity for teams to shine. Whether the offseason is six months or six days, the formula for success is the same: prioritize players in certain financial parameters and move purposefully through the list. There will also be surprises but the superiorly managed teams stay cool when the bullets start flying and resist emotional impulse signings that they will regret later (Haynesworth, anyone?).

I wonder if Brady vs. NFL case is what has prompted the owners to seek a deal with the players SOONER rather than later???

The reason: If the owners ended up canceling a 2011 season, the Brady vs. NFL case would eventually require them to show more of their books than they might be inclined to provide--Because it might show they have no real case for a lockout and they've been stashing money to pay themselves while they wrongly locked out the players for a whole season.

Now, they're realizing that they have got to do a deal and get Brady vs. NFL settled. In essence, the owners will want the players to settle and end the Brady vs. NFL suit as part of the negotiations on getting a CBA achieved. Leverage, in other words. If this is true, which it might not be since I admittedly am not a lawyer, it means (to me) that the very thing the owners used to insure themselves in a prolonged lockout--the stash of TV money--has been used against them by the players to bring an end to the lockout. In short: Owners gambled, and the players busted them out.

Could it be that Brady vs. NFL was the singular influencing "agent" that coaxed owners to move more to the middle and start up some real negotiations that we're seeing now?

gary
06-29-2011, 12:53 PM
By David Coleman - Managing Editor

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell meets with DeMaurice Smith in Minnesota, then flies with him to Florida for the rookie symposium.

Follow @sbnhouston on Twitter, and Like SB Nation Houston on Facebook.

Jun 29, 2011 - Lots of reports pouring out of this Minnesota meeting between Roger Goodell and DeMaurice Smith. The two then flew together to Florida and talked with players at the rookie symposium, hosted by the non-existent NFLPA instead of the NFL this season.

SB Nation's own Joel Thorman breaks down the news, which was very positive indeed. But, National Football Post writer Andrew Brandt throws a little cold water on the whole process:

As to reports of a deal being close or "85% done", well, that is like being 85% pregnant. There is a deal or no deal. Until then, it is just -- pardon the pun -- labor pains. We await the baby.

I know I'm much more optimistic now than I've been in months, but there's no sure end to this lockout in sight. Hopefully, the owners will come together with players in the next weeks and realize how much damage they'll all take financially if this thing drags out into the season.

Another intersting, lockout link comes from Battle Red Blog and looks at a possible rookie salary scale. I completely agree that capping the top of the draft will lead to a much more fun three days, as teams will be trading a little more freely in that range. On the other hand, those small market teams at the top of the draft may not need to trade that pick away, since the financial hit won't be as great if their player busts.

What I do think will change with that salary scale is teams taking the player they like the most, instead of taking the quarterback. Right now, I think teams feel pressured to take the guy at the higher paid position like a quarterback, over a cornerback or defensive lineman who they may have higher on their draft boards.
http://houston.sbnation.com/2011/6/29/2250578/nfl-lockout-2011-update-theyre-making-progress

Thorn
06-29-2011, 06:57 PM
So what's the chances of Houston getting another Arena league team?

CloakNNNdagger
06-30-2011, 05:58 AM
We can only hope that individual agendas or need for "revenge" by parts of the negotiating machine who feel they have been dissed, are not derailing an ultimate agreement.

Is De Smith willing to do a deal? (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/30/is-de-smith-willing-to-do-a-deal/)


We addressed a couple of times on Wednesday the current status of the talks from the players’ perspective. They fear that the players, sensing a deal is coming, will agree to whatever the owners propose in order to get a resolution. Complicating matters is the perception by the players that the owners have engaged in a bit of bait and switch, changing numbers and concepts to which the players believed the two sides generally had agreed, in anticipation of an eventual decision by the players to take the best deal that’s offered.

The league believes, we believe, that the ongoing influence of lawyers Jeffrey Kessler and Jim Quinn is keeping a deal from getting done. The league also believes, we believe, that Kessler and Quinn have been trying to derail the process ever since they were kicked out of the room by NFLPA* executive director DeMaurice Smith, possibly to the point of working behind Smith’s back and lobbying members of the NFLPA* Executive Committee to resist Smith’s recommendations.

The league further believes, we believe, that Kessler and Quinn realize they need only to keep a deal from being reached for roughly two more weeks. After that, with the Hall of Fame game scrapped and the NBC money that goes along with it forever lost, the league’s offer will begin to shrink, and the players will be less inclined to do a deal.

Some of the facts seem to support the league’s perception regarding the motivations of Kessler and Quinn. For example, we’ve heard from yet another source (we’re now up to three) that an effort is being made to get “special treatment” for the named plaintiffs in the Tom Brady class action. We can only wonder how much time has been wasted on the issue, the discussion of which serves only to shrink the available time for dealing with the truly important topics. We also wonder whether the named plaintiffs really want to pursue special treatment, if doing so means possibly preventing a deal from being completed by reducing the amount of time available to do so.

Another issue relates to the contours of “total revenue,” of which the players reportedly would receive 48 cents. The players, we’re told by players-side sources, want the sales tax on tickets to be included with the “total revenue” figure. It’s an objectively ludicrous position, in our view, to give the players 48 percent of the sales taxes, since 100 percent of those taxes are never retained by the league. And if Kessler and Quinn are wasting time on this issue, it’s even less time that can be devoted to the important issues.

The real question is whether De Smith has the desire and the will to force Kessler and Quinn to focus on the issues important to getting a deal done, and whether Smith ultimately has the nerve to stand up to them when the time comes to do a deal to which they very well may object, given the league’s perception that Kessler prefers to lose a season (or more) in the hopes of pursuing an antitrust verdict so large that the players ultimately would own part (or maybe all) of the league. Indeed, the general deal that remains within striking distance would be truly fair (in our assessment) to both sides, with plenty of owners not thrilled and plenty of players likewise unhappy. (Mutual discontent is usually the best sign of a truly fair deal.) But the only folks who possibly would completely hate the deal would be Kessler and Quinn, not simply because it would cut off their supply of legal feels but also because it would wipe out their plans (if the league’s perception is correct) of a crippling antitrust verdict that would make Kessler the new Marvin Miller.

Although Smith has done much in the past month to win the respect and admiration of the owners, his biggest test officially has arrived. We think he wants to do a deal, we think he has yet to figure out how to close the deal, and we think he realizes that if he fails to do a deal he won’t be re-elected by the players in March 2012. If the league’s belief that Kessler and Quinn want to keep a deal from happening is accurate, then Kessler and Quinn necessarily want to see De Smith lose his job, since that will be the practical outcome of a lost season.

Thus, De Smith needs to find a way to neutralize Kessler and Quinn. While the owners have the ability to nudge their outside lawyers into a position of practical irrelevance (and we think the owners already have), it’s virtually impossible for 1,900 players to come together and remind the lawyers that the lawyers work for the players, not the other way around. In this specific circumstance, the obligation to put the lawyers in their place falls to De Smith, and his ability to do it — and to then do a deal — will go a long way toward determining whether he’ll be the next Gene Upshaw, or whether his old Patton Boggs nameplate soon will be reattached to the door to his office.

Plenty of people have openly questioned whether De Smith was the right man for the job he now holds. He can prove them all wrong over the next two weeks and, in so doing, he can secure this gig that he surely digs, for as long as he wants it.

gary
06-30-2011, 09:29 AM
The attorneys have the biggest egos in my opinion it is a shame they have to be there for contract purposes.

Rey
06-30-2011, 12:51 PM
Smith painted a different picture than that of a collective bargaining agreement being reached as soon as this weekend.

Smith began the call by informing players — 50 Pro Bowlers were given call-in information, but the number of participants is unknown — that recent reports by certain news outlets were way off. That is why Smith wanted to tell players they still haven’t gotten a good enough offer from the owners to bring to them just yet.

According to several sources, Smith took questions but prefaced that by saying he couldn’t get into specifics because of a court-mandated gag order.

The first question came from Baltimore Ravens All Pro linebacker Ray Lewis. He asked, "How optimistic are you that a deal will get done soon?" Smith insisted that any time the two sides are working together, as they are now, there is reason for hope.

But later in the call when Jacksonville’s Pro Bowl running back Maurice Jones-Drew asked about the details of free agency once the lockout ends, players on the call were given examples of just how sticky these negotiations have become.

A few of the issues cited were the years of service required to become an unrestricted free agent, and money allocated for retired players — neither of which has been agreed upon yet.

It has been widely reported that both sides have agreed to restore parameters of the 2009 CBA that allowed unrestricted free agency after four seasons for players who weren’t under contract. But after Tuesday's conference call, that hardly seems to be the case.



Owners and players are expected to re-enter the talks Thursday, according to an NFL Network report. The talks reportedly will include a "select" group of owners and players as well as Goodell, Smith and their respective attorneys.

Players and owners were left jostling for position after the prior CBA expired March 11, leading to an NFL lockout and litigation by players against the league. After several agonizing months of heated rhetoric, bitter accusations and expressed lack of trust on both sides, it seemed as if the NFL and its players were finally closing in on the framework of a new labor agreement, according to multiple media reports.

Among the details reportedly being finalized: revenue sharing among clubs, a rookie wage scale and a full season of Thursday night contests that would be sold in whole or in part as a new television rights package.

There is a heightened sense of urgency to strike a deal and resume NFL business because of the Hall of Fame game in Canton, Ohio, on Aug. 7, the league’s first preseason contest.

The Chicago Bears are scheduled to report to training camp July 23, pending a signed and court-approved labor agreement — one week earlier than most teams because of their involvement in the Hall of Fame game against the St. Louis Rams.



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-collective-bargaining-agreement-demaurice-smith-agreement-not-close-062911

HOU-TEX
06-30-2011, 02:49 PM
Geez! After reading todays crap, it doesn't sound like these dip****s are even close to any kind of deal. Damn shame!

Y'all know what pisses me off the most about this crap? It's both the owners and players stating they're working hard to get it done for the fans then meet only 2 times a week. "We're commited to getting a fair deal done".....Bull****! This should've been done a long time ago. Two friggin years to get a deal done, yet they wait until the last moment to begin meeting a whopping 2 times a week. Hey now, don't work too hard or you might actually feel what your everyday joe goes through on a weekly basis.

TD
06-30-2011, 03:11 PM
Geez! After reading todays crap, it doesn't sound like these dip****s are even close to any kind of deal. Damn shame!

Y'all know what pisses me off the most about this crap? It's both the owners and players stating they're working hard to get it done for the fans then meet only 2 times a week. "We're commited to getting a fair deal done".....Bull****! This should've been done a long time ago. Two friggin years to get a deal done, yet they wait until the last moment to begin meeting a whopping 2 times a week. Hey now, don't work too hard or you might actually feel what your everyday joe goes through on a weekly basis.

What was so bad today? You sure you're not getting the NBA news mixed up?

Meeting 2-3 times a week seems about right. You have to talk to own people as least as much as the other side or it all goes to ****.

I am cautiously optimistic.

Rey
06-30-2011, 03:23 PM
Geez! After reading todays crap, it doesn't sound like these dip****s are even close to any kind of deal. Damn shame!

Y'all know what pisses me off the most about this crap? It's both the owners and players stating they're working hard to get it done for the fans then meet only 2 times a week. "We're commited to getting a fair deal done".....Bull****! This should've been done a long time ago. Two friggin years to get a deal done, yet they wait until the last moment to begin meeting a whopping 2 times a week. Hey now, don't work too hard or you might actually feel what your everyday joe goes through on a weekly basis.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder :heart:

HOU-TEX
06-30-2011, 03:25 PM
What was so bad today? You sure you're not getting the NBA news mixed up?

Meeting 2-3 times a week seems about right. You have to talk to own people as least as much as the other side or it all goes to ****.

I am cautiously optimistic.

Nah, I speaking of the NFL. From what I've read they haven't agreed upon anything they've been speaking about in the media. They still differ on the revenue split as well as the rookie pay scale. Throw in FA, veterans and retired players = Not even close

I've been cautiously optimistic too, but it's beginning to slowly fade away.

Rey
06-30-2011, 03:32 PM
I think it's going to be a while and have felt that way from the begging. If they strike a deal up within the next two weeks I will be shocked.

gary
06-30-2011, 03:38 PM
I think it's going to be a while and have felt that way from the begging. If they strike a deal up within the next two weeks I will be shocked.This and now the NBA is in a lockout too. Vugg it as Jessie i.e. DreadHead would say.

TD
06-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Nah, I speaking of the NFL. From what I've read they haven't agreed upon anything they've been speaking about in the media. They still differ on the revenue split as well as the rookie pay scale. Throw in FA, veterans and retired players = Not even close

At this point everything is a bargaining chip as it relates to revenue sharing. Its unlikely you get agreement on anything without agreement on virtually everything. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Pantherstang84
06-30-2011, 06:23 PM
PFT just put a post up advocating that it may be time for the courts to start issuing the rulings they have been holding on to. I agree.

Txn_in_Oki
07-01-2011, 06:30 AM
THrough this whole thing I have been very "meh", as in if they want to fight over it have at it I don't care. I don't need the damn foosball.

So I happened to be in the library today (Holy ****, I know, they DO exist) and this book caught my eye...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51im3JRwWQL._SS500_.jpg

Rather than make me think happy thoughts it just pissed me off. No matter how bad things are there's always football. This damn game gets us all together every Sunday no matter what we think about politics or personal opinions and these douches are screwing with our good time.

They need to figure this out because I'm really close to saying screw the whole thing.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2011, 07:02 AM
A long but worthwhile summary "inside look" at the NFL owner-player power struggle. Left me angry, sad and sick.


Sources: ‘Bizarre’ twists stifle NFL labor talks (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-silver_nfl_labor_talks_turn_bizarre_063011&print=1)
By Michael Silver, Yahoo! Sports


Three weeks ago, as Roger Goodell and DeMaurice Smith broke bread in a midtown Manhattan restaurant, the leaders of the NFL’s warring labor factions projected a sense of mutual optimism. During a negotiation session earlier that day at a Long Island hotel, Smith and player representatives had suggested a new, “all-revenue” model for splitting up the billions of dollars generated annually by America’s most profitable professional sports league, and Goodell and the owners across the table seemed to embrace the idea enthusiastically.

Late Thursday afternoon, after another frustrating interchange between the two negotiating teams at a Minneapolis-area law firm that ultimately lasted past midnight, it was clear that labor peace – and an end to the lockout imposed by the owners on March 12 – won’t be achieved anywhere close to as seamlessly as numerous reports in recent weeks have suggested. Not only is the very definition of total revenue being debated, but each side also believes the other has tried to manipulate the negotiation process in its favor, and any semblance of trust has all but disappeared.

More From Michael Silver'Baby Bear' brings players pain, results Jun 17, 2011 A little more than two months before the scheduled start of the 2011 regular season, the players and owners are still fighting over money, and quarreling over who deserves the brunt of the blame. One side is speaking Russian, the other Japanese, and that sense of mutual optimism once enjoyed by the NFL commissioner and NFL Players Association executive director has been lost in translation.

“It’s just bizarre right now,” one source on the players’ side said Thursday. “Two weeks ago, I was optimistic. I didn’t realize that we weren’t even close to close. It’s disheartening.”

I’ve talked to key figures from both camps, and others who are more neutral while familiar with the state of negotiations, and I’m still trying to figure out how what one source described as a verbal handshake between players and owners regarding a total-revenue formula earlier this month has degenerated into a montage of mutual finger-pointing.

Those on the players’ negotiating team are convinced that owners have played “bait-and-switch” games with them, belatedly asking for certain items to be excluded from the total-revenue pool after seemingly having agreed to a straight split. They view the recent wave of public optimism suspiciously, believing that owners have purposely tried to create an impression that a deal is near in order to persuade players to accept an offer in the next couple of weeks, thus ensuring that the entire preseason would be saved.

Conversely, owners continue to regard NFLPA attorneys Jeffrey Kessler and James Quinn as divisive forces intent on blowing up any prospective settlement in favor of continuing to pursue legal remedies, including the Brady v. NFL antitrust lawsuit, that could create monumental leverage for the players in the future. The owners trace recent player demands that they regard as unrealistic – i.e. an insistence upon counting sales taxes on tickets as part of total league revenue – to the two attorneys and charge that the players are the ones who’ve attempted to extract extra concessions in recent days.

The heart of the dispute remains how to split up the annual revenue pool, which in 2010 – the final year of the expired collective bargaining agreement – totaled approximately $9.3 billion. Under last year’s formula, the owners took $1 billion off the top in “expense credits,” and the players received 58 percent of the remaining money in salary distributed via a league-wide salary cap.

After opting out of the CBA two years early, the owners demanded an extra $1 billion off the top to cover rising costs such as stadium construction. The players balked, insisting that the owners open their books to convince them that they were struggling economically. The owners refused, and though the two sides made some progress on the expense-credit issue in the days leading up to the CBA’s expiration in March, it was not enough to forestall union decertification, the owner-imposed lockout and the players’ filing of the antitrust lawsuit.

Three weeks ago, shortly before that much ballyhooed Manhattan dinner between Smith and Goodell, a breakthrough occurred. Revisiting a concept they’d proposed shortly after Super Bowl XLV, the players suggested that instead of arguing over expense credits, the two sides should focus on a simple, equitable split of total, unadjusted revenue, or all revenue.

Back in February, the players had proposed a 50-50 all-revenue split, one which would have mirrored their haul from the previous CBA. The players received slightly more than 50 percent of total revenue in 2009 and an average of nearly 52 percent between 2002 and ’09.

At that meeting in Long Island, in an obvious concession, the players offered to accept 48 percent of “all revenue,” a development first reported by ESPN’s Chris Mortensen. In exchange, according to the proposal, they would receive a more favorable salary-cap formula with higher per-team spending minimums than in the past and a provision that actual salary dollars must be spent toward achieving that figure, rather than “dead money” from contracts of players no longer on the team.

And unlike the owners’ final offer before the players walked away from the bargaining table on March 11, the “true up,” or back-end potential of the deal, was also addressed: If league revenues were to exceed projections during the term of the proposed CBA, the players’ split would drop as low as 46.5 percent, but they would still share in the windfall.

Sources on both sides say the owners indicated a willingness to work within that general framework, and there was a sense that other remaining issues, such as a rookie wage scale, a reduction in offseason workouts and a continued desire by owners to expand the regular season to 18 games, would be settled quickly once the revenue-split was solved.

Beginning last week, however, the momentum began to evaporate. What happened? Each side gives a very different story.

The players blame the owners for suddenly insisting upon “expense credits” that would reduce the all-revenue total by a significant margin (described by one source as “several hundred million dollars”), effectively reducing their share to 45 percent.

The players also balked at the owners’ insistence that the proposed “legacy fund” to aid retired players would come out of the salary cap – essentially meaning that the players, and not the league, would be responsible for those costs. Owners also clung to the possibility of adding two games to the regular season as early as 2014, a move to which most players are adamantly opposed.

Owners, meanwhile, claim that certain expense credits were part of the “all revenue” understanding achieved earlier this month and charge that the players are the ones attempting to change the terms. They are also frustrated by players’ insistence that “all revenue” should include a share of money generated by non-football events (such as rock concerts) at team-owned stadiums.

As for the notion that government taxes on game tickets should be included as revenue under the formula, rather than taken off the top, the owners are downright aghast. They claim that such sales-tax payments were not included among the revenue split in the previous CBA and that an accounting miscalculation by Price Waterhouse Coopers, the firm which monitors the salary cap (and which was commissioned by the NFLPA to calculate projected NFL revenues during the current negotiation), has misled the players into demanding the inclusion of those dollars into the formula.

Further, owners see a direct correlation between last week’s reappearances of Kessler (who was absent for Thursday’s sessions) and Quinn in the negotiating room and the negative turn the talks have taken.

Players, meanwhile, view NFL senior vice president and general counsel Peter Rucco as a divisive force who has played games with the revenue numbers in recent days.

As things have degenerated, Goodell and Smith have once again been caught in the crossfire. Players believe that Goodell lacks deal-making authority and hasn’t displayed the necessary leadership to build a consensus among the owners, his de facto employers.

Owners see Smith as someone unable to exert control over Kessler and Quinn, even though, according to a source familiar with negotiations, the NFLPA executive director conspicuously silenced Kessler during a session with owners two weeks ago, ordering him to “stand down.”

For his part Goodell, according to a source, screamed at owners during a meeting in Rosemont, Ill., early last week ago after his update to the group on the progress of negotiations was leaked to Mortensen, telling them such breaches in confidentiality were hurting the negotiation process.

For all of the negativity of recent days, there is still a possibility that the optimistic vibes each side experienced earlier in June can return, and that a deal can be reached in time to allow the league’s preseason opener – the Hall of Fame game between the Chicago Bears and St. Louis Rams in Canton, Ohio – to be played as scheduled on Aug. 7.

After all, once preseason games are canceled, the league will experience a loss in revenue that will make the overall deal less valuable for both sides. For this reason, TV network executives shouldn’t be the only ones who are nervous about this prospect; players and owners, too, should feel a sense of urgency. There is also the possibility that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit (which is deciding whether the lockout is legal) and federal judge David Doty (assessing how much players were damaged in the “lockout insurance” case against the owners) could issue rulings which create leverage imbalances that change the negotiation landscape and make a settlement more problematic.

Despite the recent negativity, there is cause to remain hopeful about a settlement. Unlike a few months ago, players no longer feel personally affronted by the owners, and the two sides have remained civil and professional in negotiation sessions.

The relationship between Smith and Goodell has also improved, a welcome development given the frostiness that once existed between the two men. On Tuesday night they flew together to Sarasota, Fla., where Goodell – at Smith’s invitation – addressed incoming rookies the following day at a symposium staged by the NFLPA.

Before Goodell spoke to the rookies, he and Smith had another meal together, a breakfast that one source described as “awkwardly comfortable.” They did not talk business, making a mutual effort to steer clear of controversial topics.

By Thursday night, as a marathon negotiation session between the two sides continued in Minneapolis, it was unclear whether Smith and Goodell were communicating on a higher level – or whether they were even speaking the same language.

If their mutual optimism doesn’t return soon, things could start to appear very bleak for anxious NFL fans.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2011, 09:37 AM
The New York Times reports that "resolution" is unlikely before July 10. It seems to me that if the issue is not important enough for the principals to meet through July 4th weekend, then there little reason to think that the deal will be done by July 10. June 30 has come and gone. Time IMO has already run out on organizing a league that has any chance of functioning at an "elite" professional level.

June 30, 2011
N.F.L. Deal Is Said to Be Weeks Away as Talks Restart (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/sports/football/nfl-labor-deal-is-likely-to-be-weeks-away.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print)By JUDY BATTISTA

N.F.L. owners and players continued to negotiate late Thursday evening, but progress slowed as time dwindled for striking a labor deal that would avoid the disruption of the preseason.

The N.F.L. had hoped to have at least an agreement in principle in place around the Fourth of July, but three people who have been briefed on the negotiations said that although a resolution remained possible within the next 10 days, it was more likely that negotiations would drag on past that time, with a better chance for a settlement coming the week of July 10.

One person said that little progress on the critical issues that divide the sides had been made earlier this week, when lawyers and staff members negotiated without owners and players in attendance, and another said he still believed it was possible that games would be missed and that it would require a breakthrough for a deal to be completed in the next couple of weeks.

Owners and players are expected to continue talking Friday in Minneapolis.

Recent joint appearances by Commissioner Roger Goodell and the chief of the decertified players union, DeMaurice Smith — including one Wednesday in which both men spoke to rookie players in Florida — fueled speculation that a deal was imminent. Despite the apparent thaw in the personal relationship between the two men, the sides continue to spar over such fundamental issues as the formation of a rookie wage system and how to divide revenue.

One person who has been briefed on the status of talks said that the sides were close enough to complete a deal within 72 hours with intense effort. But dynamics among the parties, the person said, could stall a deal. The league is concerned that some lawyers and agents on the players’ side will prefer to wait, perhaps for a court decision that could sway negotiating leverage, before reaching an agreement.

And players are concerned that owners want to change the terms on issues that they believed had already been agreed upon, including the revenue split that had appeared to be nearly settled last week, with players receiving slightly less than 50 percent.

A long delay in completing a deal could affect the start of the preseason. The N.F.L. had hoped to conduct a condensed free-agency period — perhaps one starting in mid-July — before teams began reporting to training camps at the end of the month. Preseason games begin Aug. 7 with the Hall of Fame Game, and the N.F.L. estimates that $200 million in revenue would be lost for each week of the preseason that would be missed.

Lost revenue will probably make a deal more difficult to complete because while players do not receive game checks during the preseason, revenue from the preseason — which includes ticket sales and television money — goes into the pool from which the salary cap is determined.

Free agency and training camps would not begin until a deal was completed, which would almost certainly include the resolution of the players’ antitrust lawsuit and probably the reconstitution of the players union. That process could take at least a week after an agreement in principle is reached, giving the two sides no more than another two or three weeks to complete a deal before training camps could be disrupted.

Hanging over the negotiations is the possibility of a ruling by the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals on the league’s request to have the injunction that would end the lockout overturned. That decision could come at any time, although it is likely the three-judge panel will wait to see if a settlement can be reached. The sides have not grappled with benefits for retired players.

Representatives for retired players who joined the antitrust lawsuit want a voice in determining what those benefits would be.

Remarks by the judges after oral arguments on June 3, which suggested that neither side would be entirely pleased with the outcome of the league’s appeal, have spurred this round of negotiations, which began in the days before the June 3 court appearance.

Still, for all the concern about prospects for a deal — Fox Sports reported Wednesday night that Smith told elite players on a conference call that a deal was not close — Goodell and Smith said this week that starting the season on time remained their priority.

disaacks3
07-01-2011, 10:16 AM
I'm of the opinion that it may take a Judge (Doty for example) telling the parties that if an agreement isn't reached by x date that they will make their ruling. They may also wish to throw in the tidbit that the ruling won't be affected by any future CBA either way.

Unless the Players' lawyers are even stupider than I imagine (not obnoxious and unreasonable, just stupid), it sounds like a bait-and-switch WAS foisted on them by the owners regarding excluded revenue. Despite that, the players aren't being done any favors by Kessler & Co. when the absurd notion of "sharing" tax revenue comes into play.

gary
07-01-2011, 10:29 AM
So what will you be doing on Sunday this Fall with or without football?

GP
07-01-2011, 10:45 AM
PFT just put a post up advocating that it may be time for the courts to start issuing the rulings they have been holding on to. I agree.

I agree. 100%.

They should have had this thing done by end of next week.

But it seems they're just posturing...AGAIN.

I have advocated that the courts should step in and say, "You guys get a deal signed and notarized and blessed by the Pope by x-date or we're coming to huff and puff and blow your house down." Period.

All this "we're working hard" bull**** is just that: Bull****.

They know what the issues are. They know what's fair. Now sit down and agree on things item-by-item and get it done. This is like a college kid who procrastinates on a lengthy project assignment until one day he realizes that he's never going to make the deadline. For whatever reason, both sides have decided that they exist in their little bubble and the fans can eat poop and like it.

And THAT, I think, is the growing sentiment of people like us. If they don't get anything done by end of July, the season is lost. Because they're going to be so darn worn out from all their "hard work" that they need a few months off to gather enough strength to try and "work hard" again for a deal.

All I can figure is that the players are just wanting a summer off, and they'll tell Smith at the last second to get the deal done. Because I see no other concrete proof here that says they're unable to agree to SOMETHING. ANYTHING. It will never be 100% perfect. But Cheese & Rice, just sign it and move on. You're still making huge coin even if you lost a few percentage points here or there. &^%$#@!

Double Barrel
07-01-2011, 11:07 AM
So what will you be doing on Sunday this Fall with or without football?

In no particular order...time with family, paintball, fishing, mountain biking, jamming, camping, rafting, skydiving, house projects, and whatever else I feel like doing (just like the off-season).

I might even become a Saturday football fan and write the NFL off for good. I think both sides are being arrogant and unreasonable (for the reasons mentioned by disaacks3 above), so I'm slowly prepping my mentality for the real potential of no pro football for the first time in many years.

I want pro football in my life, but I certainly do not need it. Neither the owners nor the players seem to really give a crap about fans, so I'm starting to come to the conclusion that they do not deserve our loyalty and support.

gary
07-01-2011, 11:30 AM
In no particular order...time with family, paintball, fishing, mountain biking, jamming, camping, rafting, skydiving, house projects, and whatever else I feel like doing (just like the off-season).

I might even become a Saturday football fan and write the NFL off for good. I think both sides are being arrogant and unreasonable (for the reasons mentioned by disaacks3 above), so I'm slowly prepping my mentality for the real potential of no pro football for the first time in many years.

I want pro football in my life, but I certainly do not need it. Neither the owners nor the players seem to really give a crap about fans, so I'm starting to come to the conclusion that they do not deserve our loyalty and support.I second this and wish more fans would think like you do and send not just the NFL a message but also the NBA just sports in general.

TD
07-01-2011, 12:33 PM
I might even become a Saturday football fan and write the NFL off for good. I think both sides are being arrogant and unreasonable (for the reasons mentioned by disaacks3 above), so I'm slowly prepping my mentality for the real potential of no pro football for the first time in many years.

I want pro football in my life, but I certainly do not need it. Neither the owners nor the players seem to really give a crap about fans, so I'm starting to come to the conclusion that they do not deserve our loyalty and support.

I used to live and breath the Oilers and the NFL until Bud did his thing. Didn't watch any NFL for several years until about the time the Texans were announced. There's a part me that wishes I hadn't gotten back into it (even though its not with 1/10th the passion of before). The NFL simply doesn't give a crap about its fans; only $$$ and product.

I'm now a much bigger college football fan than NFL. If the NCAA would fix its scheduling and playoff format, I'd tell the NFL to kiss my ass for good.

Double Barrel
07-01-2011, 12:43 PM
I used to live and breath the Oilers and the NFL until Bud did his thing. Didn't watch any NFL for several years until about the time the Texans were announced. There's a part me that wishes I hadn't gotten back into it (even though its not with 1/10th the passion of before). The NFL simply doesn't give a crap about its fans; only $$$ and product.

I'm now a much bigger college football fan than NFL. If the NCAA would fix its scheduling and playoff format, I'd tell the NFL to kiss my ass for good.

QFT. The bolded is what has always been a bur under my saddle. If they'd fix those two things, I would be all on board for college ball. I just despise the stranglehold that the BCS and bowl system has on determining the championship.

KA4Texan
07-01-2011, 01:32 PM
So what will you be doing on Sunday this Fall with or without football?

Work on my car....sleep late.... play an old version of madden (keep them from getting a dime) and remember the days when I could stomach watching the NFL before this :slapfight:, the usual Sunday that I don't have to work in the OS.

My addiction will probably bring me back....... but I am sick of this millionaires screaming about they don't make enough BS.

I know it wont happen but it would be a beautiful thing if they do kill this season.....and when they do get everything worked out, no body cares and they have to share a revenue of $0.

CloakNNNdagger
07-01-2011, 07:12 PM
Only part of this article NFL labor developments reminiscent of ’06 talks (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_nfl_labor_talks_reminiscent_of_2006_070111) :

Just understand that covering the day-to-day and hour-to-hour movements of a negotiation is like following a bipolar personality. At one moment, everything is great. At the next, everything is about to crash and burn.

Also understand this: There is a deadline out there, even if it’s hard to pinpoint. By about July 15, the chance of starting training camp and the preseason on time starts to diminish. That means lost money. Furthermore, the more the owners waste time by pushing what the players perceive to be unrealistic terms, the closer and closer it gets to Sept. 12, when the owners will likely no longer be able to fight the players on decertification. That will force the end of the lockout and get the sides back into court, where the owners know they eventually would get crushed.

In other words, the owners can only demand so much right now while the players wait to get paid because both sides know how close the owners are to losing leverage. This is why the owners regularly need to be reminded of the presence of attorneys Jeff Kessler and Jim Quinn for the players. Kessler and Quinn are more than happy to guide the players into an antitrust lawsuit because they know how easy it will be to win. Fact is, NFL attorney Paul Clement basically admitted this when he desperately tried to argue at the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals that the NFL should be allowed to lock out the players for a full year, rather than just until September.

Clement may be brilliant, but that part of his argument was laughable to the three-judge panel. Judge Steven Colloton, a supposedly conservative judge on the panel who has already sided with the owners on the lockout for now, repeatedly asked Clement why the league should be allowed that latitude when the previous CBA allowed the players the right to decertify six months after it expired on March 12 once extension talks broke down.

It’s fair to say Colloton was not moved by Clement’s answer.

Negotiations at the moment are generally positive, if for no other reason than they are happening. Sure, each side may get ticked off at the other over each request. That’s business. After they get done being angry, they go onto the next issue. At some point, the whole thing could get tense enough that it will fall apart. Smith and the players walked once already. It won’t be so hard to do it again.

And if it comes to that, Smith could go to a restaurant with Kessler and Quinn and make a toast to the coming lawsuit … only to get a desperate phone call from Goodell asking to get back together.

As 2006 proved, don’t toast too soon.

SheTexan
07-02-2011, 01:24 AM
So what will you be doing on Sunday this Fall with or without football?

Going to church and praying to God above that He will give me the strength to NOT hunt these bastards down and give each and everyone of them a piece of my mind, BOTH SIDES!!! I feel a lawsuit coming on! They have messed with my emotional and mental wellbeing! Football is THERAPY, a way to release anger, built up emotions, etc, etc, etc! I NO longer have that, if they don't settle this crap, so I just might go bonkers and take my anger out on any one of them at any particular time! :scarygirl:( can't you just see this old gma kicking the shiiiiiiiit out of a football player?) Hummmm, sounds like fun!:slapfight:

Just kidding folks! BUT, I wonder what they would do IF a class action lawsuit was filed by the fans. Is such a thing even possible? I truly doubt it. Without us they wouldn't have a stuffed bank account in the first place! THey need to remember that!! JMO

gary
07-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Going to church and praying to God above that He will give me the strength to NOT hunt these bastards down and give each and everyone of them a piece of my mind, BOTH SIDES!!! I feel a lawsuit coming on! They have messed with my emotional and mental wellbeing! Football is THERAPY, a way to release anger, built up emotions, etc, etc, etc! I NO longer have that, if they don't settle this crap, so I just might go bonkers and take my anger out on any one of them at any particular time! :scarygirl:( can't you just see this old gma kicking the shiiiiiiiit out of a football player?) Hummmm, sounds like fun!:slapfight:

Just kidding folks! BUT, I wonder what they would do IF a class action lawsuit was filed by the fans. Is such a thing even possible? I truly doubt it. Without us they wouldn't have a stuffed bank account in the first place! THey need to remember that!! JMOI have said it before and I'll say it again both sides just poo poo on the hand that feeds them all.

CloakNNNdagger
07-02-2011, 12:45 PM
I have said it before and I'll say it again both sides just poo poo on the heads that feeds them all.

There. Fixed that for ya.

GP
07-02-2011, 03:33 PM
I might even become a Saturday football fan

I think I will do all home games of my alma mater West Texas A&M University, which I do anyways, but I'll even consider traveling and watching them play their away games too.

I used to really watch every single TTU football game, until they got stoopid and canned Mike Leach. By the way, I think I'm going to try and go to his book signing (book entitled Swing Your Sword) in Lubbock July 19th. I follow him on facebook, and anybody can--He recently signed up and he had about 4,000+ fans within a 48 hour time period. He posts photos and announcements. I think he's a brilliant guy--A thinker, a gambler, a rogue. Tech was dumb.

Therefore, I don't know what Division 1 team to follow on Saturdays. TCU? I like their style. I like their attitude. Wherever Leach goes in a year or so, I'l probably follow that team.

I'l have football somehow. Not all is lost, and it might just be a good thing to have a one-year sabbatical from Bob McNair's brand of NFL ball.

CloakNNNdagger
07-02-2011, 03:37 PM
The NFL evidently realized that "taking the weekend off" has elicited a negative response from the fans. So what do they do...........rev up their PR spin machine specialist.

@gregaiello Greg Aiello

Are the NFL-NFLPA negotiators "taking the weekend off?" Most definitely not. What are they doing? Lots...

2 hours ago via UberSocial for BlackBerry

GP
07-02-2011, 04:03 PM
The NFL evidently realized that "taking the weekend off" has elicited a negative response from the fans. So what do they do...........rev up their PR spin machine specialist.

Yeah? Well I shoveled THIS gem to Mr. Fancy Pants just now:

@gregaiello STHU and get a deal done. "Hard work" blah blah blah. Nobody in fandom cares about you or the players' PR moves. Get. It. Done.

If he returns a reply, I welcome it. You guys know I'm game for a flame war, so I hope he says something back. I'll be the seasoned comedian on stage who pwns the heckler and makes him wish he had never been born.

Man it felt good to post that tweet. Cathartic. Sometimes you write things down and delete it rather than send it. Yeah, well I blasted this AND sent it out on twitter in about 10 seconds max.

I'm tired of this crap. Blah blah blah, shovel crap, blah blah blah, piss on our heads, blah blah blah, etc., etc.

CloakNNNdagger
07-02-2011, 04:03 PM
Surprise, surprise. Look what is following up the twitter report.

The NFL, perhaps sensitive to the notion negotiators are taking the long holiday weekend off, used Twitter to inform the public that the work toward a new collective bargaining agreement is continuing through the weekend.

Although face-to-face meetings between the league and the NFL Players Association won't resume until Tuesday in New York, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello says negotiators are not resting or relaxing.

Aiello tweeted: "Are the NFL-NFLPA negotiators 'taking the weekend off'? Most definitely not. What are they doing? Lots ...

"Lawyers are drafting language for potential agreement, sharing it with PA. All kinds of phone, email exchanges going on. Work continues."

Responding to a tweet that suggested the league must be sensitive to the image of a weekend off, Aiello responded, "My mother always told me I was too sensitive. ... Relax folks. Lawyers have been drafting potential CBA language for a while. Part of process. Point is work continues over the weekend."

The league is starting to feel pressure to wrap up negotiations. Many people close to the situation feel an agreement must be reached by July 15 in order for training camps and preseason games to proceed as scheduled. The first preseason game, between the Bears and Rams, is scheduled for Aug. 7 in Canton, Ohio.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-07-02/nfl-spokesman-no-holiday-down-time-for-negotiators#ixzz1QyyjQUve (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-07-02/nfl-spokesman-no-holiday-down-time-for-negotiators#ixzz1QyyjQUve)

CloakNNNdagger
07-02-2011, 04:06 PM
Yeah? Well I shoveled THIS gem to Mr. Fancy Pants just now:



If he returns a reply, I welcome it. You guys know I'm game for a flame war, so I hope he says something back. I'll be the seasoned comedian on stage who pwns the heckler and makes him wish he had never been born.

Man it felt good to post that tweet. Cathartic. Sometimes you write things down and delete it rather than send it. Yeah, well I blasted this AND sent it out on twitter in about 10 seconds max.

I'm tired of this crap. Blah blah blah, shovel crap, blah blah blah, piss on our heads, blah blah blah, etc., etc.


Love it! Rep coming your way!:kingkong:

GP
07-02-2011, 04:09 PM
Well I sure hate that they're now working over the weekend.

I mean, gee whiz...this has just crept up on everyone out of nowhere. They're basically doing the same kind of work that people who are hit with nuclear attacks and flooding and tornado damage have to deal with. Bless their hearts.

Wormy little pricks. Just come out and say, "Both sides have agreed that a draft will be ready for final review by x-date...and then hopefully the final deal will be signed within a few days either side of y-date." But hell no, all of 'em gotta' play this game of only saying "hard work is being done," and "still lots to do," as if they've all been given the same template of patented responses they can make to the fans out here.

I think my glycemic index is jacked up. I'm murderous right now, figuratively speaking. Of course. :cutthroat:

CloakNNNdagger
07-02-2011, 04:17 PM
Well I sure hate that they're now working over the weekend.

I mean, gee whiz...this has just crept up on everyone out of nowhere. They're basically doing the same kind of work that people who are hit with nuclear attacks and flooding and tornado damage have to deal with. Bless their hearts.

Wormy little pricks. Just come out and say, "Both sides have agreed that a draft will be ready for final review by x-date...and then hopefully the final deal will be signed within a few days either side of y-date." But hell no, all of 'em gotta' play this game of only saying "hard work is being done," and "still lots to do," as if they've all been given the same template of patented responses they can make to the fans out here.

I think my glycemic index is jacked up. I'm murderous right now, figuratively speaking. Of course. :cutthroat:

Let's see you turn it from figuratively to literally...........Have another cookie!:pirate:

GP
07-02-2011, 04:21 PM
Let's see you turn it from figuratively to literally...........Have another cookie!:pirate:

You got it, chief!


http://thumbnails.truveo.com/0023/8E/2B/8E2BD46DCB2F2783E825C1_Large.jpg

badboy
07-02-2011, 10:30 PM
Not sure if valid but infoI heard on 1560 am radio this morning. Some guy and never got name but he was a guest not a regular said only small details left as revenue sharing has been resolved. "Needs 22 of owners to sign off on it and 20 have verbally committed". I just caught the end and never hear name or credentials if any. Stated, "deal ready to sign in two weeks".

Yeah, maybe but I've been hearing "two weeks or July 15th" for weeks. Anyway posted for what it is worth if anything.

gary
07-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Don't report until any deal is done already because they are driving us all crazy.

GP
07-03-2011, 01:24 PM
Schefter's twitter feed:

@Adam_Schefter RT @AlynchFC: Isn't every week considered "critical?" ... Once we get past July 15, NFL likely loses 1st preseason week - and $200 million.

$200 million for one preseason game. I bet that first preseason week happens.

EllisUnit
07-03-2011, 04:01 PM
Schefter's twitter feed:



$200 million for one preseason game. I bet that first preseason week happens.

It dont matter i feel as long as it has been taking for a new CBA that it has already driven away a large number of fans. i can assure you that the NFL feel a ripple effect from this lock-out and i hope they do.

Lucky
07-03-2011, 04:17 PM
$200 million for one preseason game. I bet that first preseason week happens.
$200 million for a week of preseason games (16). I've said all along that not a single game (preseason or otherwise) would be missed. $$$ is the reason.

TD
07-03-2011, 05:09 PM
$200M is chump change when you're talking about over $9B in annual revenue.

CloakNNNdagger
07-03-2011, 09:57 PM
$200M is chump change when you're talking about over $9B in annual revenue.

Not when you're GREEDY!

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_19/1125511090ag5ny5.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
07-03-2011, 10:28 PM
This may or may not mean anything.

Report: Cowboys set July 29 training camp date (http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/30425642)

GP
07-04-2011, 12:18 AM
This may or may not mean anything.

Report: Cowboys set July 29 training camp date (http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/30425642)

Oh my.

Jerruh done gone an' tipped his hand.

I don't think a date would have been set UNLESS! this is one of those brilliant P.R. moves by Jerry Jones to get fans all hyped up in anticipation of a signed CBA deal...only to be forced to withdraw the date when July 29th hits and he has to tell the fans how awfully bad he feels that the players are prolonging this ordeal.

At zis point, I truzt nuzzing!

TEXANRED
07-04-2011, 12:36 AM
Oh my.

Jerruh done gone an' tipped his hand.

I don't think a date would have been set UNLESS! this is one of those brilliant P.R. moves by Jerry Jones to get fans all hyped up in anticipation of a signed CBA deal...only to be forced to withdraw the date when July 29th hits and he has to tell the fans how awfully bad he feels that the players are prolonging this ordeal.

At zis point, I truzt nuzzing!

He is probably having sponsor problems and season ticket sales problems so he is throwing a hail marry hoping Glover Quin is covering the pass.

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Oh my.

Jerruh done gone an' tipped his hand.

I don't think a date would have been set UNLESS! this is one of those brilliant P.R. moves by Jerry Jones to get fans all hyped up in anticipation of a signed CBA deal...only to be forced to withdraw the date when July 29th hits and he has to tell the fans how awfully bad he feels that the players are prolonging this ordeal.

At zis point, I truzt nuzzing!

He is probably having sponsor problems and season ticket sales problems so he is throwing a hail marry hoping Glover Quin is covering the pass.


Possibly a repeat of the Super Bowl fiasco where fans were sold SEATS that were not there.............except this time the GAME won't be there!:barman:

drs23
07-04-2011, 12:38 PM
It's been being reported since Friday that the lawyers were working on drafting language for the CBA over the 4th weekend and the owners, players & shysters would meet again Tuesday through Friday to get things ironed out. Sorry I don't have any twitter feeds, I don't twit but it has been online and on the NFL channel. It'll get done and we shall have a full season.

And for this reason, I'm going to join myself for a nice cool beverage and burn some meat. :beer:

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2011, 01:13 PM
It's been being reported since Friday that the lawyers were working on drafting language for the CBA over the 4th weekend and the owners, players & shysters would meet again Tuesday through Friday to get things ironed out. Sorry I don't have any twitter feeds, I don't twit but it has been online and on the NFL channel. It'll get done and we shall have a full season.

And for this reason, I'm going to join myself for a nice cool beverage and burn some meat. :beer:

It's good to see that the two of you can could finally get together and enjoy a good 4th!:)

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Greed continues to define both sides.


Bears Offensive Tackle J'Marcus Webb on the NFL Lockout (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/sports/jmarcus-webb-chicago-bears-offensive-tackle-nfl-lockout-20110704)

Updated: Monday, 04 Jul 2011, 1:14 PM CDT
Published : Monday, 04 Jul 2011, 1:14 PM CDT

FOX Chicago News


Bears offensive tackle J'Marcus Webb joined FOX Chicago News to talk about the effect this lockout may have on Chicago.

There has been a break in talks, but there has also been a lot of negotiating behind the scenes and so far no progress.

The main dispute over the newly proposed bargaining agreement centers on the amount of money that the owners want to take as "credit" from the revenue pool.

In the previous agreement, the owners took $1 billion from the pool of approximately $9 billion, but now they are trying to increase that number to $2.4 billion, citing "the economic realities of the era" as reasoning.

This would effectively cut the players' share of the revenue by 18 percent, and thus is causing extreme discontent among the players.

However, many players understand how the increased funding of the owners would lead to an increased annual revenue thanks to new and improved stadiums.

A second topic of major concern has been the split of the overall revenue. The players have been fighting for a 50-50 split with the owners, who have steadfastly refused this offer.

The offer currently on the table is a 51-49 split for the owners, which has been refused by the NFL Player's Association.

gary
07-04-2011, 02:59 PM
Can you say greed? The owners have yet to prove why they need the larger piece of the overall share.

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2011, 05:49 PM
Can you say greed? The owners have yet to prove why they need the larger piece of the overall share.

BOTH sides.

gary
07-04-2011, 06:14 PM
BOTH sides.:clap:

steelbtexan
07-04-2011, 08:04 PM
Can you say greed? The owners have yet to prove why they need the larger piece of the overall share.

The owners really have the fans in their hearts and minds when they are constantly raising ticket prices on them. Especially after fans and non fans alike are paying for a large portion of their new stadiums with taxes.

Now they're crying that they need a bigger piece of the pie from the players.

Tell you what Billionaire BoBBy, you try to put the best team possible on the field and then we can talk. Otherwise just shut up with the we're on the right track talk. It's been a decade of crappy football and you're crying poor. Your loyal fans have done their part supporting your crappy product and now your saying you need more? LOL

Cry me a river.

Know that I believe DeMaurice Smith is a despicable human being and Goddell is a snake. These two deserve each other.

gary
07-04-2011, 08:44 PM
The owners really have the fans in their hearts and minds when they are constantly raising ticket prices on them. Especially after fans and non fans alike are paying for a large portion of their new stadiums with taxes.

Now they're crying that they need a bigger piece of the pie from the players.

Tell you what Billionaire BoBBy, you try to put the best team possible on the field and then we can talk. Otherwise just shut up with the we're on the right track talk. It's been a decade of crappy football and you're crying poor. Your loyal fans have done their part supporting your crappy product and now your saying you need more? LOL

Cry me a river.

Know that I believe DeMaurice Smith is a despicable human being and Goddell is a snake. These two deserve each other.I am fed up with all of it.

CloakNNNdagger
07-04-2011, 09:05 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/139/871/92637740_crop_650x440.jpg?1298297190


We swear, our settlement on the new CBA will not result in taking any money from each other............only from the sucker fans..............we swear!

steelbtexan
07-04-2011, 09:13 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/139/871/92637740_crop_650x440.jpg?1298297190


We swear, our settlement on the new CBA will not result in taking any money from each other............only from the sucker fans..............we swear!


This says it all

LOL

CloakNNNdagger
07-05-2011, 10:10 PM
The labor talks continue to ping-pong, with optimism alternatively replaced by pessimism, then optimism. And so with signs pointing to a possible resolution by the weekend, Sal Paolantonio of ESPN reports that progress is slow, and that the first week of the preseason could now be in jeopardy.

Per Paolantonio, lawyers haggled Tuesday regarding the terms of a rookie wage scale and a revised drug program. Citing two unnamed sources with direct knowledge of the talks, disagreement still exists on the key issues of dividing revenues and defining “all revenue.”

The news should come as no huge surprise, given that only the lawyers are present. Without Commissioner Roger Goodell, NFLPA* executive director DeMaurice Smith, mediator Arthur Boylan, the owners, or the key players, the lawyers are unlikely to make much progress.

That’s why Goodell, Smith, Boylan, the owners, and the key players need to get to Manhattan, sooner rather than later. If the parties merely had decided to suck it up and meet through the weekend, I’m convinced a deal would have been struck. Instead, the parties will be trying to recapture on Thursday, July 7 the vibe that existed on Thursday, June 30.

Much can change in a week, and the stakes are increasingly higher.

Hopefully, the parties will quit talking about hard work and start engaging in it. At $200 million per week in potentially lost preseason revenues, the two sides have every reason to get this thing done.link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/05/report-progress-is-slow-again/)


Chris Mortensen's inside sources are telling him that there is unlikely that a deal will be struck this week.link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6738786&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines)

HOU-TEX
07-06-2011, 08:47 AM
link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/05/report-progress-is-slow-again/)


Chris Mortensen's inside sources are telling him that there is unlikely that a deal will be struck this week.link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6738786&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines)

How can they? Meeting 2 days a week isn't going to get anything done. I don't care how much they do when they're apart from each other. They're always talking of commitment and hard work. Pfft! Bull butter!

I used to be on Goodell's side, but honestly, he and Smith are like two monkeys ****in a football when it comes to these CBA negotiations.

CloakNNNdagger
07-06-2011, 07:56 PM
Mediator starts vacation on Saturday (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/06/mediator-starts-a-vacation-on-saturday/)


And now there’s another reason for the principals in the labor dispute to roll up their sleeves, pack a lunch, and focus on the task at hand.

According to ESPN.com, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan is scheduled to start a vacation on Saturday. As a result, ESPN.com reports that the parties “hope to achieve a true framework for a new CBA by the close of business on Friday.”

Maybe they will, and maybe they won’t. But the fact that Boylan starts a vacation reinforces the reality that the two sides should have kept at it over the Fourth of July weekend.

Instead, the key figures will be renewing acquaintances on Thursday, with only two days to get something done before Boylan, who played a key role last week in averting an implosion of the talks, becomes unavailable.


The 4th of July weekend could end up being the NFL's and NFLPA's Waterloo.


http://www.gregduncanpowell.com.au/images/stories/napoleon-na-waterloo.jpg

GP
07-06-2011, 10:41 PM
deleted. already posted as a thread in the NFL section.

HOU-TEX
07-07-2011, 11:47 AM
I've got a random question...and it might be a dumb one. I might be having a brain fart or something.

Obviously teams can't talk with players. However, can they contact their agents? I think the obvious answer's no, but thought I'd ask anyway.

Thorn
07-07-2011, 12:33 PM
I'm rapidly loosing interest in this horse****.

gary
07-07-2011, 12:36 PM
I'm rapidly loosing interest in this horse****.I already have.

texanhead08
07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
I have barely followed this mess since it began. I don't really care if they cancel pre season games it would just mean some extra $$$ in my pocket. I have never understood how college football can play with no pre season and professional football needs 4 make believe games to play the season. I guess its the reason college teams can get there plays in to the QB without a walkie talkie but a pro teams can't

Allstar
07-07-2011, 08:00 PM
Back at it: NFL owners, players come together for crucial talks (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820a672c/article/back-at-it-nfl-owners-players-come-together-for-crucial-talks?module=HP_headlines)
NEW YORK -- NFL owners and players arrived at a Manhattan law firm Thursday for a critical set of labor talks, with the possibility of cancelled preseason games becoming more real by the day.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith each came with five representatives of their constituency, as has been the case at many of these meetings.

Goodell was accompanied by New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft, Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, New York Giants owner John Mara, Pittsburgh Steelers president Art Rooney II and Kansas City Chiefs owner Clark Hunt, while Smith brought NFLPA president Kevin Mawae, former special-teams ace Sean Morey, Steelers quarterback Charlie Batch, Indianapolis Colts center Jeff Saturday and Baltimore Ravens cornerback Domonique Foxworth. U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan also re-joined the talks, but he has a vacation scheduled to begin Saturday.

These discussions are only scheduled to go through Friday, but there's the possibility of extending them into the weekend -- which would be a first in the six weeks of this phase of negotiations. So, the issue of Boylan potentially leaving talks over the weekend exists, but two sources said it doesn't make the next two days more vital, citing preseason revenue as the primary motivator to quickly finish a settlement.

Also, a Thursday night conference call has been scheduled for the plaintiffs in the Brady et al v. National Football League et al antitrust case. Settling that case ultimately would be part of ending the league-imposed lockout, which started March 12.

After paying tribute to Hall of Fame tight end John Mackey, a former NFLPA president who passed away Thursday, Smith was asked on his way into the building if he's hopeful about the labor talks.

"I feel good," Smith responded.

Mawae was asked what he hoped to see accomplished in the talks and said, "Getting a little bit closer to getting a deal done, hopefully, we'll see.

"The closer we get to the kickoff of the regular season, the more important it becomes that the sides come together," Mawae added. "But again, from the players' standpoint, we have to get a deal that's fair for everybody. We're working hard."

Legal teams and staff from each party met Tuesday and Wednesday in Manhattan, and while progress was made, there's only so much that could be done without owners and players present.

Thursday is seen as a big day for a number of reasons.

First, there's the issue of timing, with July 15 largely seen as a deadline to settle a deal and save the preseason in full. Second, there's the need to carry over momentum from the marathon 16-hour session last Thursday and subsequent meeting Friday, after Boylan reined in the parties during a tough time and pushed negotiations forward. Third, there are many issues -- including the rookie salary system and funding of retiree benefits -- on which the parties still need to make breakthroughs, and these talks could be key to that after time away from the table.

It has been estimated that it would take between 10 and 14 days to go from an agreement to a signed document, and the idea of this week's meetings is to cut down that time and have groundwork laid to quickly move things from a settlement to the opening of training camps. The Chicago Bears and St. Louis Rams, who are scheduled to play in the Aug. 7 Hall of Fame Game, are scheduled to report to camp July 22.

Saving the preseason would avert the possible loss of hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. That loss would affect the owners' offer to the players and could poison negotiations to the point where the dispute would head back to the courts.

Two court rulings are pending -- one from U.S. Circuit Court Judge David Doty in the networks' rights-fees case and another from the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on the league's appeal of a lockout-lifting injunction.

Lawyers involved in negotiations believe rulings in the cases have been finalized but that neither Doty nor the 8th Circuit judges, who previously implored the league and players to work out their differences themselves, want to issue them. The failure of talks, this line of thinking goes, could lead Boylan to inform those courts that negotiations have broken down and there's no need to wait to reveal their rulings.

If that's indeed Boylan's hammer, he has used it effectively, prompting progress on the revenue split last week, the central issue in this entire dispute. In that time, many of the "fringe" demands -- deemed unacceptable by one side or the other -- fell off the table as well, clearing the way for more productive talks.

One remaining issue is retired players' benefits, one of the smaller issues that flows into the revenue split. The owners and players didn't settle the funding for such benefits late last week, and a group of retired players -- led by Carl Eller -- filed a lawsuit in a Minneapolis court Monday seeking to halt the ongoing negotiations and keep the active players from representing them in that setting.

Source: Call to update players on deal (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6745234)

The plaintiffs in the Tom Brady vs. NFL case will participate in a conference call Thursday night, the latest step toward completing a labor deal between the NFL and its locked-out players in the near future.

The purpose of the conference call is to update the individual plaintiffs on the status of the labor negotiations, particularly the framework for a new collective bargaining agreement, a league source told ESPN's Sal Paolantonio.

All of the details of the agreement have not been worked out, but the call is designed to give the plaintiffs a clear idea of where the agreement is headed so that they can make an informed decision about the anti-trust lawsuit which must be settled in federal court prior to the CBA taking effect, the league source said.

Those scheduled to be on the conference call are Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Logan Mankins, Osi Umenyiora and rookie Von Miller -- all of whom must approve of the deal in federal court before it can become binding.

While there remains a focused approach toward completing a deal, finishing it Thursday is close to impossible, sources close to the negotiations told ESPN senior NFL analyst Chris Mortensen.

It still is expected that negotiations will spill into early next week to achieve a "done deal," the sources said. Even with progress, there are unresolved issues that require further negotiations. Members of the NFL Players Association's executive board and owners resumed discussions Thursday at a law firm in Manhattan.

If the talks extend past Friday, the sides will be negotiating without U.S. District Judge Arthur Boylan, the mediator in the talks. Sources told ESPN that Boylan is scheduled to go on vacation Saturday.

Commissioner Roger Goodell, NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith, owners and players are involved in the talks to finalize the details of a new revenue split, which is getting closer to agreement. Sources told ESPN on Wednesday both sides hope to achieve a true framework for a new collective bargaining agreement by the close of business on Friday.

Besides Goodell and Smith, others taking part in the talks Thursday include NFLPA president Kevin Mawae and team owners including Robert Kraft of the Patriots, John Mara of the New York Giants and Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys.

Lawyers for both sides have met over the past two days to do paperwork toward a collective bargaining agreement. On Wednesday, they negotiated details for free agency and training camps once the NFL is re-opened for business.

The players have so far rejected any deal that allows teams to have a right of first refusal on offers for up to three of their own free agents. Said one agent: "That punishes the top guys."

Also, teams would be allowed to bring in 80 to 90 players to training camp to allow for injuries and rust because of the lockout, which reached its 114th day Thursday.

Players and owners have been involved in six sets of negotiations around the country over the last several weeks, with pressure mounting to make a deal.

Training camps for the St. Louis Rams and Chicago Bears are scheduled to open July 22, with those teams scheduled to play in the Hall of Fame Game Aug. 7 in Canton, Ohio.

The rest of the training camps would open about a week later, with a full slate of preseason games set for the second weekend in August.



Videos accompany both links. Also Albert Breer just posted on twitter that a food delivery was just made in the discussion room (9:00 pm EST), so it seems they plan to meet tonight awhile longer.

GP
07-07-2011, 08:50 PM
I gave rep to Allstar for posting all of that information.

I think everyone should rep him if it lets them do it.

Thanks for posting all of that. I read all of it, and I think a deal will be done and signed no later than July 22 or July 25 so that camps can get started.

I also think they'll drop the first preseason game and just have three preseason games.

Just my hunch.

gary
07-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Repped Allstar too.

Allstar
07-08-2011, 01:36 AM
Thanks guys. Meetings are starting up again at 9 am EST tomorrow.

Texans34Life
07-08-2011, 09:28 AM
@AdamSchefter: Lockout is legal, 8th circuit ruled.

IDEXAN
07-08-2011, 09:43 AM
@AdamSchefter: Lockout is legal, 8th circuit ruled.
The verdict is hardly a surprise, but the timing certainly is with CBA talks nearing a settlement. Theoretically the owners can now lock out the players for the entire season, but the players still have the anti-trust suit in the courts. How this affects CBA discussions remains to be seen. SI.com's Peter King believes commissioner Roger Goodell will not allow the owners to "step on the players' throats" with their new found leverage. Losing close to a billion dollars on preseason games is still a concern.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43684675/ns/sports-player_news/

GP
07-08-2011, 11:19 AM
The verdict is hardly a surprise, but the timing certainly is with CBA talks nearing a settlement. Theoretically the owners can now lock out the players for the entire season, but the players still have the anti-trust suit in the courts. How this affects CBA discussions remains to be seen. SI.com's Peter King believes commissioner Roger Goodell will not allow the owners to "step on the players' throats" with their new found leverage. Losing close to a billion dollars on preseason games is still a concern.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43684675/ns/sports-player_news/

Yep, it's the anti-trust suit (Brady vs. NFL) that has the owners worried.

The lockout itself is worth ZERO if the owners might not be able to use their stash of TV contract money--as a way to survive a cancelled season--if a court rules in favor of Brady in the Brady vs. NFL case.

That's the real tipping point, and it could end up not being settled well into the fall of this year. This, IMO, is why the owners are willing to engage in these talks--They are not 100% guaranteed of being able to financially withstand a cancelled season unless a court rules in THEIR favor in Brady vs. NFL. Someone correct if I'm wrong here.

Therefore, the owners are going to create a deal and hold it just out of the players' reach and say to the players, "Before you sign this, let's talk about Brady vs. NFL..." and you'll see the players drop Brady vs. NFL and then a new CBA will be signed.

The very thing the owners tried to do, to survive a prolonged lockout, is what has them by the balls at the moment. They can't access that money right now, and they're having to choose whether to push forward and do a CBA deal now or walk away from talks and risk losing the Brady vs. NFL case later in the fall. And even then, there will be an appeals process too!

The owners talked tough up until recently (see: Panthers owner Jerry Richardson and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones), but they know they can't wait on the court system to settle the anti-trust suit.

The only question seems to be how many preseason games will be played. I think 3 at the most, with the chance that we might only have 1 or 2. The final signed deal can't be done soon enough to ensure a small window of free agency AND that first preseason game. I think the HOF game gets nixed, as well.

SheTexan
07-08-2011, 11:48 AM
Exhausting keeping up with this stuff. My thanks to all you guys who have kept us updated, and have tried to help us understand all the "talks" going on between the two sides. I'm to the point that I just don't care anymore. I love the GAME of football, and the NFL has been my fav for over 5 decades. BUT, I can still get my football fix on Friday nights and Sat. Regardless of what they decide to do, the fans are still the victims. ALL the cost of this lockout will eventually be passed on down to us, bet on it!!

Ryan
07-08-2011, 12:26 PM
Anyone else think this thread title needs a severe update?

Allstar
07-08-2011, 01:54 PM
AlbertBreer Albert Breer
After running this 8th Circuit ruling by a few people ... I think it might actually ramp up urgency to do a deal now.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
The bad news (part of the motivation, too) is that if preseason revenue starts to evaporate, situation could potentially get a lot uglier.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
Dominoes ... Rookies/UFAs need to be ruled on ... Nelson gets 1st crack ... Nelson likely to rule for players ... That ruling = Total chaos.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
Wanna really boil this down? 8th Cir to Players/Owners: "Solve this thing soon, or you're gonna have a real ugly situation on your hands."


The 8th circuit ruling didn't rule on undrafted rookies and UFA, so that goes back to Judge Nelson,who will most likely rule with the players again. So that would be a mess. This deal needs to get done before things get out of control.

GP
07-08-2011, 02:05 PM
The 8th circuit ruling didn't rule on undrafted rookies and UFA, so that goes back to Judge Nelson,who will most likely rule with the players again. So that would be a mess. This deal needs to get done before things get out of control.

Which would mean an owner's appeal to the 8th Circuit again, I bet.

Round and round we go...

HOU-TEX
07-08-2011, 02:06 PM
AlbertBreer Albert Breer
After running this 8th Circuit ruling by a few people ... I think it might actually ramp up urgency to do a deal now.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
The bad news (part of the motivation, too) is that if preseason revenue starts to evaporate, situation could potentially get a lot uglier.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
Dominoes ... Rookies/UFAs need to be ruled on ... Nelson gets 1st crack ... Nelson likely to rule for players ... That ruling = Total chaos.

AlbertBreer Albert Breer
Wanna really boil this down? 8th Cir to Players/Owners: "Solve this thing soon, or you're gonna have a real ugly situation on your hands."


The 8th circuit ruling didn't rule on undrafted rookies and UFA, so that goes back to Judge Nelson,who will most likely rule with the players again. So that would be a mess. This deal needs to get done before things get out of control.

True, but the NFL would just appeal. In turn, right back in the 8th's hands. Like a big cirlcle. Like you mentioned, their best bet would be to settle before she rules on anything

Allstar
07-08-2011, 02:46 PM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Sal Pal is is reporting that De Smith is holding a conference call with NFL player reps from all 32 teams. Call began at 3 pm EDT.


Let's cross our fingers.

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2011, 03:19 PM
More questions.........

NFL lockout ruling raises timing issues
By Lester Munson
ESPN.com

As NFL owners and players appear to be closing in on a new collective bargaining agreement, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit (St. Louis) on Friday issued a 2-1 opinion that eliminates a lower court injunction that temporarily stopped the owners' lockout. The decision, its rationale, the dissent and the timing raise questions about the current bargaining process and the 2011 season. Here are some of the questions and their answers:

Why would these judges issue their decision now, when it appears that the owners and the players are in the final stages of a new agreement?

There isn't an obvious answer to that. The timing of this decision is highly questionable. All reports indicate that both sides are negotiating in good faith and approaching an agreement that would resolve all issues and establish a working partnership that can endure for several NFL seasons. It appeared, until Friday, that the judges who were involved in owner-player litigation were holding off on their decisions as the negotiations continued. Why render a decision that can change the relative strength of the bargaining positions when it appears that a settlement is on the horizon? U.S. District Judge David Doty in Minneapolis, who has presided over NFL labor disputes for more than 20 years and is easily the nation's most knowledgeable jurist on these issues, has delayed his decision on the players' lawsuit attacking TV network payments to the owners during the lockout. Doty's timing, in contrast to the judges of the higher court, allows the players and the owners to find common ground without any sudden and dramatic changes in the topography.

How did the two judges of the higher court reach the conclusion that the owners could continue with their lockout?

In ironic and surprising interpretations of a federal law known as the Norris-LaGuardia Act and a decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in another NFL case, the majority judges (Steven M. Colloton and Duane Benton) concluded that American law prohibits the use of injunctions against lockouts in labor disputes. The irony arises from the fact the law was enacted to protect labor unions from injunctions issued by anti-labor judges in the early days of the labor movement. As Judge Kermit Edward Bye explains in his dissent, the Norris-LaGuardia Act was "not intended for the protection of employers (the owners)," and was intended only for the protection of employees (the players). The surprise is that the judges viewed the owners-players dispute as a labor dispute even though it no longer involves a labor union. (The NFLPA decertified as soon as the lockout began.) To reach their conclusion, the judges analyzed Brown vs. NFL, a 1996 decision involving developmental squad players, a rare loss for NFL players in the long history of antitrust litigation between players and owners. Even though the Brown decision stated that a decertification of a union could open the owners to antitrust claims (including an injunction stopping a lockout), the judges on Friday ruled that they would ignore the decertification and treat the dispute as a labor dispute and not an antitrust dispute.

What effect will the decision have on negotiations?

If the owners and the players are close to an agreement, the effect of the decision will be minimal. But if the negotiations break down, the decision could have a major effect. In their opinion, the majority judges ruled that free agents and rookies may be entitled to an injunction that would end the lockout for them and allow them to begin to negotiate for contracts. The judges' ruling included an admonition that the free agents and rookies must present witnesses and other evidence to U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson in St. Paul, but that, after an evidentiary hearing, they would be entitled to an order stopping the lockout. If lawyers and agents representing rookies and free agents filed a lawsuit now, they would complicate the labor negotiations with a new layer of issues and possibilities. Veteran players under contract would be locked out, and free agents and rookies would be permitted to negotiate contracts, attend preseason camps and prepare for the 2011 season.

Can the players appeal this loss?

Yes. There are two avenues of appeal that are open to the players. The first is to ask for reconsideration in what is known as an "en banc" hearing before the 11 active judges of the Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit. With a 2-1 decision and a strong dissent, the chances for an en banc reconsideration are better than they would be with a 3-0 decision. The players would then face the challenge of persuading five of the remaining eight judges who did not participate in Friday's decision that it's an antitrust dispute and not a labor dispute. The second alternative is a petition to the U.S. Supreme Court asking it to intervene in the dispute. The high court can easily refuse to hear the players' appeal, and that would be the end of the litigation. But, if the Supreme Court did agree to consider the case, the players would be in a court that ruled 9-0 against the owners in the last NFL case it considered: American Needle vs. NFL.

Is this the end of the players' antitrust attack on the owners?

No. The players can return to federal court in St. Paul and pursue their claims against the owners. They would be asking for financial records of the league's 32 teams, and they would ask a jury to award them money triple damages for the losses they claim to have resulted from the lockout and restrictions on player movement (franchise and transition tags, draft, salary caps). It would be an endless process, extending into 2012 and beyond.

What are the chances for a 2011 season after this decision?

The best chance for a 2011 season is the negotiation now underway. If the owners and the players can continue with the progress they appear to be making, there will be a season. But if the negotiations fail, then there is the prospect of a continuing lockout, a lawsuit by free agents and rookies, an appeal of Friday's decision, a decision in the TV networks case and continuing uncertainty.

Lester Munson, a Chicago lawyer and journalist who reports on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry, is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Allstar
07-08-2011, 03:29 PM
AlbertBreer Albert Breer
I'm told thus far - 7.5 hours in - very little progress has been made on key ussues today. Decision yet to come on potential weekend talks.


All I know is, if they fail to reach an agreement now and everything goes back to the way things were a couple months ago, the NFL should prepare themselves for the wrath of millions of fans.

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2011, 03:58 PM
AlbertBreer Albert Breer
I'm told thus far - 7.5 hours in - very little progress has been made on key ussues today. Decision yet to come on potential weekend talks.


All I know is, if they fail to reach an agreement now and everything goes back to the way things were a couple months ago, the NFL should prepare themselves for the wrath of millions of fans.


************************************************** ****
More info:

Albert Breer of NFL Network reports that no decision has been made about whether talks will continue into the weekend. He points out the two sides haven’t negotiated on the weekend since February.

Yeh..........they've been working really hard...........right! And now they're not sure that they will be carrying the negotiations THIS weekend?!

Double Barrel
07-08-2011, 04:30 PM
AlbertBreer Albert Breer
I'm told thus far - 7.5 hours in - very little progress has been made on key ussues today. Decision yet to come on potential weekend talks.


All I know is, if they fail to reach an agreement now and everything goes back to the way things were a couple months ago, the NFL should prepare themselves for the wrath of millions of fans.

This heat wave has kept my inside a lot more than usual, especially in the summer.

Once things start to cool down in the fall, I'm just not sure if I want to give half my weekends to these people anymore. I'm starting to think about all the things that I can do outside during those beautiful fall Sundays instead of sitting in front of the boob tube.

I love football, but like SheTex mentioned earlier, there are other ways to get that fix. Sundays might not be the NFL's anymore, especially if they fail to get a deal done and sacrifice any part of a regular season.

I will still watch the Texans, but with DVRs these days, I might be waiting until Sunday nights to do it.

Thorn
07-08-2011, 05:03 PM
Whether there is a season or not, I'm already thinking of alternative things to do on Sundays. Between the Texans never showing anything and this crap, I'm rapidly losing interest in the NFL.

If they ever start playing again, that will change somewhat. I'm afraid I'm at the point now I can't be the fan I used to be. It's going to take the NFL and the Texans both to convice me to be a charged up fan again.

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2011, 05:15 PM
@AlbertBreer Albert Breer

I'm told thus far - 7.5 hours in - very little progress has been made on key issues today. Decision yet to come on potential weekend talks.
1 hour ago via Echofon

disaacks3
07-08-2011, 05:47 PM
The 8th circuit's ruling today didn't help the proceedings one iota.

The timing of this decision is highly questionable. All reports indicate that both sides are negotiating in good faith and approaching an agreement that would resolve all issues and establish a working partnership that can endure for several NFL seasons. It appeared, until Friday, that the judges who were involved in owner-player litigation were holding off on their decisions as the negotiations continued. Why render a decision that can change the relative strength of the bargaining positions when it appears that a settlement is on the horizon? U.S. District Judge David Doty in Minneapolis, who has presided over NFL labor disputes for more than 20 years and is easily the nation's most knowledgeable jurist on these issues, has delayed his decision on the players' lawsuit attacking TV network payments to the owners during the lockout. Doty's timing, in contrast to the judges of the higher court, allows the players and the owners to find common ground without any sudden and dramatic changes in the topography. I honestly hope Doty give the Owners a signal that he'll issue his ruling by the end of next week if a deal isn't struck beforehand. I'm 99% sure that Doty won't be nearly as forgiving as the 8th circuit, and the Owners will be looking at a multi-hundred-million-dollar settlement for negotiating the TV contracts in bad faith.

I'm almost beginning to wonder if there are pockets being lined over in the 8th.

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2011, 06:12 PM
The 8th circuit's ruling today didn't help the proceedings one iota.

I honestly hope Doty give the Owners a signal that he'll issue his ruling by the end of next week if a deal isn't struck beforehand. I'm 99% sure that Doty won't be nearly as forgiving as the 8th circuit, and the Owners will be looking at a multi-hundred-million-dollar settlement for negotiating the TV contracts in bad faith.

I'm almost beginning to wonder if there are pockets being lined over in the 8th.

How dare you question the American justice system
-------------------------------Casey Marie Anthony:foottap:

CloakNNNdagger
07-08-2011, 07:36 PM
During negotiations Friday the rookie wage scale and finalizing the free agency rules were discussed, according to a person familiar with the talks who requested anonymity because details are not being announced publicly. Owners want to increase the number of unrestricted free agents on which they can exercise the right of first refusal.

"We're going to break for the weekend, get back to work next week. We continue to work hard to get something done," Smith said. "I know our fans want us to get something done as quickly as possible."link (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43684558/)

Hard work / break for the weekend.........Sounds contradictory to me.

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2011, 09:50 AM
From PFT:

Stalemate arises over rookie wage scale


Thanks for nothing, Arthur Boylan.

As the U.S. Magistrate Judge who presided over the labor talks like a referee and then decided to leave the stadium with the ball inside the five starts his vacation, some believe that the process can continue without him, given the threat of the looming loss of preseason revenue. We’re not so sure that’s the case.

A source with knowledge of the dynamics of the negotiations tells us that the league and the players are at a stalemate on the issue of the rookie wage scale.

Per the source, the owners still are pushing for five-year contracts for first-round picks. But that approach would make it harder for truly great players to be properly compensated before making it through five years with enough left in the tank to justify a big contract. That would actually make it better for great players to slide into round two, since the players would be eligible for free agency, or at a minimum the franchise tag, after four years of play.

The league’s general concern is valid. Too much money flows out of the system when top-ten draft picks become busts. Also, the magnitude of those contracts possibly contributes to a player becoming a bust, by causing him to become complacent or by making him believe he doesn’t have to listen to teammates, coaches, or anyone. But the league seems to be trying to leverage that concern into a solution that goes much farther than it needs to.

Making the league’s position even more confusing is the apparent reality that the salary floor will creep within five or so points of the salary cap, forcing teams to spend money. So why do they want to lock up first-round draft picks to subpar contracts? The league would likely contend that teams will have no choice but to extend truly great first-round picks before their initial contracts expire. While that may be true for quarterbacks and high-profile skill position players, the men who toil in anonymity easily could remain anonymous until they finish that fifth NFL season.

Regardless of how it all works out, it needs to work out before the lockout can end. And while few dispute that a rookie wage scale needs to be put in place, the league needs to be fair and reasonable on this point, or much of the money that would be redistributed via a rookie wage scale will be lost once preseason games begin to be canceled.

But it will be hard for anything to work out until Boylan comes back.

TD
07-09-2011, 10:21 AM
Anyone know how long the vacation is?

ChampionTexan
07-09-2011, 11:22 AM
Anyone know how long the vacation is?

He'll be back July 19th.

gary
07-09-2011, 11:44 AM
When are these mind games going to stop?

Wolf
07-09-2011, 11:52 AM
exactly Gary, this is past stupid. they should be locked into a room, no a/c and sit there until they work it out

GP
07-09-2011, 03:12 PM
This heat wave has kept my inside a lot more than usual, especially in the summer.

Once things start to cool down in the fall, I'm just not sure if I want to give half my weekends to these people anymore. I'm starting to think about all the things that I can do outside during those beautiful fall Sundays instead of sitting in front of the boob tube.

I love football, but like SheTex mentioned earlier, there are other ways to get that fix. Sundays might not be the NFL's anymore, especially if they fail to get a deal done and sacrifice any part of a regular season.

I will still watch the Texans, but with DVRs these days, I might be waiting until Sunday nights to do it.

CFL game on the NFLN right now.

For what that's worth.

Ryan
07-09-2011, 03:51 PM
CFL game on the NFLN right now.

For what that's worth.


Tried watching it. Couldn't believe the crap i was watching. I don't think running the ball exists in that league.

badboy
07-09-2011, 04:00 PM
It's been being reported since Friday that the lawyers were working on drafting language for the CBA over the 4th weekend and the owners, players & shysters would meet again Tuesday through Friday to get things ironed out. Sorry I don't have any twitter feeds, I don't twit but it has been online and on the NFL channel. It'll get done and shall have a full season.

And for this reason, I'm going to join myself for a nice cool beverage and burn some meat. :beer:So you are not a twit? That's a good thing.

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2011, 05:48 PM
Tried watching it. Couldn't believe the crap i was watching. I don't think running the ball exists in that league.

That's because there are only 3 downs, the width of the field is 15 yds greater, and the end zone is 20 yds deep. There are other reasons, but the CFL is set up as a passing league.

Ryan
07-09-2011, 05:50 PM
That's because there are only 3 downs, the width of the field is 15 yds greater, and the end zone is 20 yds deep. There are other reasons, but the CFL is set up as a passing league.


Makes sense. Just not my cup of tea i guess. Same reason i can't get into Arena Football. I love the smashmouth style of the NFL the most.

TEXANRED
07-09-2011, 05:56 PM
CFL game on the NFLN right now.

For what that's worth.

My question is what the hell is an alouettes?

GP
07-09-2011, 06:09 PM
My question is what the hell is an alouettes?

Alouette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alouettes) is a French word for a lark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark) (a type of bird).

Trivia Time:

Do you remember the old Looney Tunes cartoons, with Bugs Bunny and the gang?

The skunk, named Pepe Le Pew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepé_Le_Pew), would bounce along and sing this song:

Alouette, gentille Alouette
(Skylark, nice skylark)

Alouette, je te plumerai
(Skylark, I shall pluck you)


Damn lockout.....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Pepe_Le_Pew.jpg

TEXANRED
07-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Alouette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alouettes) is a French word for a lark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark) (a type of bird).

Trivia Time:

Do you remember the old Looney Tunes cartoons, with Bugs Bunny and the gang?

The skunk, named Pepe Le Pew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepé_Le_Pew), would bounce along and sing this song:

Alouette, gentille Alouette
(Skylark, nice skylark)

Alouette, je te plumerai
(Skylark, I shall pluck you)


Damn lockout.....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Pepe_Le_Pew.jpg
Knew the song, never knew what it meant. Thanks.

Damn lockout......

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2011, 06:17 PM
My question is what the hell is an alouettes?

It's French for a lark. GP beat me to it. I was born in Paris and I remember my mother always used to sing that song to me as a baby.

TEXANRED
07-09-2011, 06:19 PM
It's French for a lark. GP beat me to it. I was born in Paris and I remember my mother always used to sing that song to me as a baby.

You're French? Never would have guessed.

GP
07-09-2011, 06:20 PM
It's French for a lark. GP beat me to it. I was born in Paris and I remember my mother always used to sing that song to me as a baby.

It's a catchy tune, that's for sure.

damn lockout... :beerfunnel:

CloakNNNdagger
07-09-2011, 06:33 PM
You're French? Never would have guessed.

I was born in Paris to French parents. We came to the US when I was only 6......didn't know a word of English.

For those who may be interested. French mothers have always sung this song to their babies, not to relate the "plucking" aspect, but as an effective way to teach them basic anatomical parts.

CloakNNNdagger
07-10-2011, 10:40 PM
One of the main sticking points still seems to be the rookie wage scale.

Rookie salary system a major discussion point as talks roll on (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820b3c8e/article/rookie-salary-system-a-major-discussion-point-as-talks-roll-on)

By Albert Breer NFL Network
NFL Network Reporter

July 10, 2011 at 09:46 p.m.


NEW YORK -- There have been other big days over the last six weeks, as NFL players and owners have worked to resolve their differences and end a lockout that will reach its 122nd day when face-to-face talks resume Monday.

But this week, those days start to count in a whole different way.

The parties have been working against deadlines since starting this phase of negotiations in suburban Chicago on May 31. Those deadlines are no longer on the horizon, now, with July 15 -- this Friday -- long have been pegged internally as the date when a deal needed to be agreed to in order to save the preseason in full. The Bears and Rams, combatants in the Aug. 7 Hall of Fame Game, are scheduled to open their training camps at the end of next week.

Lawyers will kick this critical week of negotiations off in Manhattan on Monday. Players and owners are expected to join them on either Tuesday or Wednesday.

The biggest issue remaining on the ledger is the rookie salary system, according to sources on both sides of the table.

The current system has long awarded rookies at the higher end of the first round with the kind of payday many veterans will never see -- 2010 top pick Sam Bradford copped $50 million guaranteed in his first deal -- and the league has always targeted an overhaul to that compensation model as an area critical to these labor talks. The players, too, have been open to restructuring rookie pay.

But the money alone isn't the problem. It's the give-and-take between the cash and the length of deals, and, in particular, the fifth year of such deals.

The NFL's disagreement with the players comes, primarily, with the top eight picks in the draft, where the dollars are biggest. Conversely, the players' issue stretches across the entire first round, with a desire to get younger players to free agency quicker, if their pay is going to be slashed significantly.

One proposal from the league cut the money for the first pick from the six-year, $78 million deal Bradford received last year to a slotted five-year, $34 million contract. Also, deals for Top 8 picks could include triggers pushing the fifth year to 150 percent of an average starter’s salary at his position, with a floor of $6 million and a ceiling of $12 million. The salary would be derived from that average in his draft year, and the league would be open to making it an option year. The lag time between Year 1 and Year 5 is the players’ issue with that aspect.

Naturally, the gap between old system and new shrinks by the pick, but just as important as the overall value of the deals is the structure.

As part of its proposal, the league is asking for a system setting the limit for length on first-round deals to five years. Under the old collective bargaining agreement, the NFL allowed six-year deals to the first 16 picks.

Meanwhile, the level to which players have been willing to cut rookie money is tied directly to the years on such deals. More significant economic changes are agreeable to the players if all rookie deals are limited to four years, which was the case for players selected in Rounds 2-7 under the expired CBA.

It's the fifth year where the disagreement arises. A proposal by the players allows a fifth year, but only as a team option year that would be fully guaranteed once exercised and pay players at the top of the market. The insistence is that players be treated as veterans in Year 5.

The parties agree on four-year deals for all other draft picks, the aforementioned term in the expired CBA. There's also basic agreement on new stipulations that would keep draft picks from renegotiating until after Year 3, and undrafted free agents (on three-year deals) from renegotiating until after Year 2. The hope is that the new mechanisms would also promote renegotiation for players outperforming their contracts.

This aspect of any new deal, of course, has a slew of other complexities that involve structure and guaranteed money as well that can further cloud what raw numbers tell you.

This isn't the only area where the players and owners need a breakthrough. But last Thursday and Friday, it was one that was largely responsible for the stalemate.

As the parties try to work those differences out, several key dates loom ahead as landmarks in this critical period, outside of just the deadlines to save preseason games and training camp practices.

Relive the NFL season in HD with NFL Game Rewind. Sign up now to get full access to the season archives.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan, who ran the court-ordered mediation in April and May and has overseen these talks the last six weeks, is on vacation this week, but has scheduled a meeting between the principles and their lawyers for July 19 in Minneapolis. Two days later, on July 21, the owners have a meeting scheduled in Detroit.

Less certain, time-wise, is when a ruling will come from U.S. District Judge David Doty in the networks rights fees case, with more $4 billion in television money at stake. That could be another significant event, as the 8th Circuit ruling on the injunction appeal was on Friday.

In any event, it's clear that time is running short. And once the preseason revenue starts coming off the table, everything starts to change.

badboy
07-10-2011, 11:05 PM
I just can not understand why rookie scale is such a big thing to players as it only effects top 10 or so and they should be able to swap that for something benefitting all players.

Allstar
07-11-2011, 12:27 AM
I second the notion of changing the thread title. Who ever breaks the news that the lockout is over should start a new thread all together.

I just can not understand why rookie scale is such a big thing to players as it only effects top 10 or so and they should be able to swap that for something benefitting all players.

I believe the issue is "if you're going to give us less money, make us free agents in shorter time"

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2011, 09:05 AM
The "expected" deal date now appears to be delayed yet once again to July 21 (if you believe the tea leaves that have shown signs of fungating already). Even if we get to squeeze in a "full" 2011 season, the preparation will be predictably shortened and shoddy. It has all the potential building blocks for an injury-ladened poor performance cluster ****. JMO

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6756301

HOU-TEX
07-11-2011, 11:39 AM
These jokers will probably screw things up now that Boylan's on vacation and not a part of this week's meetings.

GP
07-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Are they "working hard" today?

They need a spa day, and SHOPPING! to relieve all the stress from all the hard work.

-------------------------

Let's go SHOPPING!!!

http://thelittlestwinslow.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/anchorman083109.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2011, 04:33 PM
I'm feeling more and more that July 21 is just another Thursday.

NFL player says deal is not close, tells Roger Goodell to “drop his nuts” (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/11/nfl-player-says-deal-is-not-close-tells-roger-goodell-to-drop-his-nuts/)

Not everyone is feeling optimistic about a labor deal being approved by July 21.

One nameless NFL player that spoke to Pete Prisco of CBSSports.com believes the owners are using the media to pressure players into a deal.

“All that is hype coming from the owners side to try and put pressure on us to do a deal. They want to make us look bad. It’s simply not true. There is a lot of work to be done. They are not close,” the player said. “Consider where that information is coming from, it’s the owners. Their reason is to try and create all this false hope to put more pressure on us.”

While we’d love to know if the player has direct knowledge of daily labor developments, his point is fair to consider. It wasn’t long ago we heard the end of June as a realistic target. Then July 4, then July 15, and now July 21.

The player says he’d be “shocked” if we had a deal in 10 days.

“Do it one-on-one like their predecessors used to do. When Gene Upshaw and Paul Tagliabue went into a room, they got it done. That’s what needs to happen now,” the player said. “The players in there are smart, but they don’t know how to close a deal. As for Goodell, he needs to drop his nuts. He needs to have the power to do a deal. It needs to be two guys in a room.”

Texecutioner
07-11-2011, 04:39 PM
The only ones winning from all of this are the lawyers. They're raping both sides and taking them to the bank. They must be loving this.

gary
07-11-2011, 04:43 PM
Why would anyone still support the sport after this mess?

Allstar
07-11-2011, 05:51 PM
Apparently they won't meet face to face until Wednesday.

GP
07-11-2011, 08:07 PM
I'm feeling more and more that July 21 is just another Thursday.

NFL player says deal is not close, tells Roger Goodell to “drop his nuts” (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/11/nfl-player-says-deal-is-not-close-tells-roger-goodell-to-drop-his-nuts/)

Not everyone is feeling optimistic about a labor deal being approved by July 21.

One nameless NFL player that spoke to Pete Prisco of CBSSports.com believes the owners are using the media to pressure players into a deal.

“All that is hype coming from the owners side to try and put pressure on us to do a deal. They want to make us look bad. It’s simply not true. There is a lot of work to be done. They are not close,” the player said. “Consider where that information is coming from, it’s the owners. Their reason is to try and create all this false hope to put more pressure on us.”

While we’d love to know if the player has direct knowledge of daily labor developments, his point is fair to consider. It wasn’t long ago we heard the end of June as a realistic target. Then July 4, then July 15, and now July 21.

The player says he’d be “shocked” if we had a deal in 10 days.

“Do it one-on-one like their predecessors used to do. When Gene Upshaw and Paul Tagliabue went into a room, they got it done. That’s what needs to happen now,” the player said. “The players in there are smart, but they don’t know how to close a deal. As for Goodell, he needs to drop his nuts. He needs to have the power to do a deal. It needs to be two guys in a room.”

Just what I predicted a day or so ago: Jerry Jones filing his paperwork for Cowboys training camp was a ploy to put pressure on the players...especially if July 21st comes and goes with no deal being made.

The owners will have hyped up the fans, and the players will say "A deal isn't imminent yet," and it will look like the players dashed fans' hopes.

Jerks.

Allstar
07-11-2011, 08:53 PM
Just what I predicted a day or so ago: Jerry Jones filing his paperwork for Cowboys training camp was a ploy to put pressure on the players...especially if July 21st comes and goes with no deal being made.

The owners will have hyped up the fans, and the players will say "A deal isn't imminent yet," and it will look like the players dashed fans' hopes.

Jerks.

For all we know it is the payers that dashed the fans' hopes. Apparently the owners were prepared to meet tomorrow but now they wont meet until Wednesday. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

CloakNNNdagger
07-11-2011, 09:12 PM
For all we know it is the payers that dashed the fans' hopes. Apparently the owners were prepared to meet tomorrow but now they wont meet until Wednesday. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

When he's not negotiating........Goodell relaxing with a good book..........BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

http://stomptokyo.com/img-m6/glen-or-glenda-e.jpg

Wolf
07-11-2011, 09:17 PM
The only ones winning from all of this are the lawyers. They're raping both sides and taking them to the bank. They must be loving this.

yep..This^^^^^

badboy
07-11-2011, 10:05 PM
I second the notion of changing the thread title. Who ever breaks the news that the lockout is over should start a new thread all together.



I believe the issue is "if you're going to give us less money, make us free agents in shorter time"

Yes, that is the issue but the "less money" really impacts only the top 10or so and shorter time to free agency effects all incoming players even down to our most irrevelant. I think owners will give shorter time limits to get the millions on limited salaries. Each team does not have to allow the player to leave in free agency. Owners just want to have someone else tell them to stop spending.

GP
07-12-2011, 09:45 AM
ESPN ticker rolled across the screen last night, about midnight.

It said a deal is near.

The only item left to decide upon is the ROOKIE PAY SCALE.

playa465
07-12-2011, 10:11 AM
I just can not understand why rookie scale is such a big thing to players as it only effects top 10 or so and they should be able to swap that for something benefitting all players.

Its slightly bigger than that...so many variables without knowing the whole story...but most reports are saying that players want the rookie cap to end after 4th year while owners want it to end after year 5 for rookies. There have been offers for 5th year to be an option where the owners want a set amount fixed or 150% increase based on incentives but the increase would be rated on salaries in year 1 of the contract. In defense of the players the lower 1st round draft picks will be the ones hurting if they out perform their contracts in year 2, 3 or 4. Its kinda controlling, plus the top 8 picks are going to get big money any way (not as much in the past). All in all I wish they just get the d#mn thing DONE

Dutchrudder
07-12-2011, 10:40 AM
ESPN ticker rolled across the screen last night, about midnight.

It said a deal is near.

The only item left to decide upon is the ROOKIE PAY SCALE.

Really? I could hammer one out in Excel in less than an hour. Slot it by the number of the pick, not by round because compensatory picks would mess that up. Start at 5 mill per year up to four years with the 1st pick overall, and let it go down by $100,000 per slot. The 33rd pick will get ~2 mill, and let it continue to go down until the 65th pick. At that point, it should be around 1 mill, then from the 98th pick on, you should be very close to the minimum. I would also suggest making the guaranteed money 3 years for the first 32 picks, 2 years for the 33-64 picks, and 1 year for everyone else.

Paying less for rookies will encourage them to focus more on the game and keeping their jobs than spoiling them right out of the gate. Force everyone, including the #1 overall pick to earn their next contract/extension that could pay them much more than they ever got as a rookie. It also reduces the harm that busts do to a team's cap. If 3 years is the worst they could do for a Vernon Gholston or Jamarcus Russell, then teams who make a mistake won't be ruined for more than 3 years.

Done. Now sign on the dotted line!

drs23
07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
Really? I could hammer one out in Excel in less than an hour. Slot it by the number of the pick, not by round because compensatory picks would mess that up. Start at 5 mill per year up to four years with the 1st pick overall, and let it go down by $100,000 per slot. The 33rd pick will get ~2 mill, and let it continue to go down until the 65th pick. At that point, it should be around 1 mill, then from the 98th pick on, you should be very close to the minimum. I would also suggest making the guaranteed money 3 years for the first 32 picks, 2 years for the 33-64 picks, and 1 year for everyone else.

Paying less for rookies will encourage them to focus more on the game and keeping their jobs than spoiling them right out of the gate. Force everyone, including the #1 overall pick to earn their next contract/extension that could pay them much more than they ever got as a rookie. It also reduces the harm that busts do to a team's cap. If 3 years is the worst they could do for a Vernon Gholston or Jamarcus Russell, then teams who make a mistake won't be ruined for more than 3 years.

Done. Now sign on the dotted line!

Thanks DR. Have you faxed it to them yet??

Dutchrudder
07-12-2011, 01:00 PM
Thanks DR. Have you faxed it to them yet??

No, they won't return my phone calls :(

badboy
07-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Its slightly bigger than that...so many variables without knowing the whole story...but most reports are saying that players want the rookie cap to end after 4th year while owners want it to end after year 5 for rookies. There have been offers for 5th year to be an option where the owners want a set amount fixed or 150% increase based on incentives but the increase would be rated on salaries in year 1 of the contract. In defense of the players the lower 1st round draft picks will be the ones hurting if they out perform their contracts in year 2, 3 or 4. Its kinda controlling, plus the top 8 picks are going to get big money any way (not as much in the past). All in all I wish they just get the d#mn thing DONE

One of us is mistaken. The owners want the length of contract to be 5 and players 4 or less. Players thinking is the new scale will be much lower & shorter contract will allow player to enter free agency and bid up their worth.

The rookie cap is amount for entire contract. The upfront $ is killing the owners as player gets it whether they get cut or play.

welsh texan
07-12-2011, 01:18 PM
I might be being thick here but I fail to see why they are arguing over this.

The owners obviously want the rookie wage scale for a good reasons, in fact, I'd go so far as to say its one of the few things about this whole process that is sensible.

Why are the players against it? Surely if new rookies are gonna get paid less it leaves more in the pot for them? Of all the things for this process to snag on right at the end I wouldn't have thought a selfless act in the interests of fairness to their soon-to-be team-mates would have been one of them.

Am I missing something here?

HOU-TEX
07-12-2011, 01:28 PM
One of us is mistaken. The owners want the length of contract to be 5 and players 4 or less. Players thinking is the new scale will be much lower & shorter contract will allow player to enter free agency and bid up their worth.

The rookie cap is amount for entire contract. The upfront $ is killing the owners as player gets it whether they get cut or play.

From what I've read, the players have agreed to a team optioned 5th year. It's the money in that 5th year where they differ and they aren't far apart. The players want the 5th year of rookies drafted 1-8 to be increased to the average of the top 10 at the position. The next 8 to be increased to the top 20.

The owners, otoh, want the top 8 increase at 150% of their salary and 125% of the next 8. The owners offered something like $840 thousand max for remaining rounds. The players are asking $880 something max for remaining rounds. This is what I read this morning. It really sounds petty if it's true. It's a win win for the owners either way. I think the owners are just dickin around in attempt to squeeze the players of every little bit of $

Dutchrudder
07-12-2011, 02:14 PM
From what I've read, the players have agreed to a team optioned 5th year. It's the money in that 5th year where they differ and they aren't far apart. The players want the 5th year of rookies drafted 1-8 to be increased to the average of the top 10 at the position. The next 8 to be increased to the top 20.

The owners, otoh, want the top 8 increase at 150% of their salary and 125% of the next 8. The owners offered something like $840 thousand max for remaining rounds. The players are asking $880 something max for remaining rounds. This is what I read this morning. It really sounds petty if it's true. It's a win win for the owners either way. I think the owners are just dickin around in attempt to squeeze the players of every little bit of $

How many players even stay with the team that drafted them for 5 years without getting cut? I'll bet it's about 10% at most. Chances are that the 5th year option won't be used much.

Allstar
07-12-2011, 02:16 PM
How many players even stay with the team that drafted them for 5 years without getting cut? I'll bet it's about 10% at most. Chances are that the 5th year option won't be used much.

And chances are if they actually do use the 5th year option, they deserve the big pay raise anyways.

Dutchrudder
07-12-2011, 02:31 PM
And chances are if they actually do use the 5th year option, they deserve the big pay raise anyways.

Yeah, if it is a Team Option, then the team will likely retain the player for a massive discount compared to being forced to franchise or offer an extension to the player. Sounds very short-sighted on the player's part.

Texans34Life
07-12-2011, 02:58 PM
Lopez was close...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/12/july-17-emerges-as-target-for-the-announcement-of-a-deal/

July 17 emerges as target for the announcement of a deal

We’ve got no interest in breaking the news that a new labor deal has been finalized. When it happens, plenty of people will have it within minutes, and within minutes after that it will be officially announced.

But keeping with our mission of sharing with PFT Planet the things we’re hearing from our network of sources, we’re hearing that an agreement in principle, subject to league and court approval, currently is expected to be announced on July 17.

Whether a new deal is announced on July 17 is a separate question. The story for now is that July 17 has emerged as the potential target.

Like every other aspect of the lockout story (which is about to cause Drew Magary’s heart and/or head to explode and/or implode), this one is subject to change. And change it probably will.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Lopez was close...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/12/july-17-emerges-as-target-for-the-announcement-of-a-deal/

July 17 emerges as target for the announcement of a deal

We’ve got no interest in breaking the news that a new labor deal has been finalized. When it happens, plenty of people will have it within minutes, and within minutes after that it will be officially announced.

But keeping with our mission of sharing with PFT Planet the things we’re hearing from our network of sources, we’re hearing that an agreement in principle, subject to league and court approval, currently is expected to be announced on July 17.

Whether a new deal is announced on July 17 is a separate question. The story for now is that July 17 has emerged as the potential target.

Like every other aspect of the lockout story (which is about to cause Drew Magary’s heart and/or head to explode and/or implode), this one is subject to change. And change it probably will.

Even with an "agreement in principle," there will probably be another few days before all is signed sealed and delivered...........which will probably bring the date back to around July 21 again.........then another week for explaining the "rules" to the owners and players.........then about 5-7 days of FA.............and then??????????????

Dutchrudder
07-12-2011, 05:34 PM
Even with an "agreement in principle," there will probably be another few days before all is signed sealed and delivered...........which will probably bring the date back to around July 21 again.........then another week for explaining the "rules" to the owners and players.........then about 5-7 days of FA.............and then??????????????

PROFIT!!!


:thisbig:

badboy
07-12-2011, 05:38 PM
From what I've read, the players have agreed to a team optioned 5th year. It's the money in that 5th year where they differ and they aren't far apart. The players want the 5th year of rookies drafted 1-8 to be increased to the average of the top 10 at the position. The next 8 to be increased to the top 20.

The owners, otoh, want the top 8 increase at 150% of their salary and 125% of the next 8. The owners offered something like $840 thousand max for remaining rounds. The players are asking $880 something max for remaining rounds. This is what I read this morning. It really sounds petty if it's true. It's a win win for the owners either way. I think the owners are just dickin around in attempt to squeeze the players of every little bit of $I thought 5th years of any contract was seldom guaranteed so why is that a deal breaker. I still think it is the upfront money and huge deals for first round picks. Thanks for the info.

TD
07-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Even with an "agreement in principle," there will probably be another few days before all is signed sealed and delivered...........which will probably bring the date back to around July 21 again.........then another week for explaining the "rules" to the owners and players.........then about 5-7 days of FA.............and then??????????????

If hoover can figure out a way to harness the "suck" of this year's preseason...............

badboy
07-12-2011, 05:46 PM
"Hey, Bob, have you made that deposit we talked about? I am fixing to start dialing".

Ric Smith

TEXANRED
07-12-2011, 05:59 PM
Even with an "agreement in principle," there will probably be another few days before all is signed sealed and delivered...........which will probably bring the date back to around July 21 again.........then another week for explaining the "rules" to the owners and players.........then about 5-7 days of FA.............and then??????????????

What happened to the angry player from yesterday that said they were no where near close and the 21st was a fairy tail? So now today we get an earlier date?

I will so be glad when this is all over.

GP
07-12-2011, 06:46 PM
Really? I could hammer one out in Excel in less than an hour. Slot it by the number of the pick, not by round because compensatory picks would mess that up. Start at 5 mill per year up to four years with the 1st pick overall, and let it go down by $100,000 per slot. The 33rd pick will get ~2 mill, and let it continue to go down until the 65th pick. At that point, it should be around 1 mill, then from the 98th pick on, you should be very close to the minimum. I would also suggest making the guaranteed money 3 years for the first 32 picks, 2 years for the 33-64 picks, and 1 year for everyone else.

Paying less for rookies will encourage them to focus more on the game and keeping their jobs than spoiling them right out of the gate. Force everyone, including the #1 overall pick to earn their next contract/extension that could pay them much more than they ever got as a rookie. It also reduces the harm that busts do to a team's cap. If 3 years is the worst they could do for a Vernon Gholston or Jamarcus Russell, then teams who make a mistake won't be ruined for more than 3 years.

Done. Now sign on the dotted line!

I'll take it one step further, to reduce the drama every year about how a player picked #3 holds out for #1 money because he feels HE is the best pick and was passed over for various reasons.

My plan is to slot the first five guys to make practically the SAME contract amount, regardless of being picked 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th. This way, you get the Top 5 players and they all make verrrry similar money.

Then, guys 6-through-10 make a percentage less than the Top 5 guys. Again, you won't get the "I was drafted 10th but I should have been 6th or 7th" etc.

Guys 11-through-15 make a percentage less than guys 6-through-10.

And lastly, all guys picked 16th through the end of the 1st round, regardless of compensatory picks, make a certain amount.

2nd round makes x-amount no matter their selection position.

3rd round makes y-amount.

4th round makes z-amount.

Etc., etc.

Simplify the process.

------------------------

FOR EXAMPLE (using loose figures, not exact amounts):

Round 1, Top 5 picks is as follows: Player 1 makes $20 million, Player 2 makes $18 million, Player 3 makes $16 million, Player 4 makes $14 million, and Player 5 makes $12 million. They all make a nice cut, and there's a $8 million difference between Pick 1 and Pick 5...which means it STILL makes sense to try and be the #1 pick vs. dropping to #5. But even if you drop to #5 due to a bad combine, etc., you're still not getting blown out of the water vs. the No. 1 pick's contract (like it is now).

Round 1, Picks 6-10 is as follows: Player 6 makes $10 million, Player 7 $9 mill, Player 8 $8 mill, Player 9 $7 mill, and player 10 $6 mill. A decrease by $1 million for each step down.

Round 1, Picks 11-15 could make a range that differs by like $50k for each spot down.

----------------

These are all just random numbers, to show how the NFL could slot players and keep a "range" to make sure guys picked in the Top 5 pay out like a Top 5 guy should, and picks 6-through-10 pay out nicely, as well, but not like it would if you were a Top 5 guy. So on and so forth, as you progress down the first round.

This would make players appreciate draft RANGE and not the exact selection position they were drafted for. It could also help to reduce a lot of the media hype about "This guy is a bust at No. 1!" and "That guy should have been a No. 1 but was chosen 5th instead, what insanity!" Now you're looking at it not being a big deal if you were picked 2nd or 3rd or 4th, etc.

TEXANRED
07-12-2011, 08:59 PM
I'll take it one step further, to reduce the drama every year about how a player picked #3 holds out for #1 money because he feels HE is the best pick and was passed over for various reasons.

My plan is to slot the first five guys to make practically the SAME contract amount, regardless of being picked 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th. This way, you get the Top 5 players and they all make verrrry similar money.

Then, guys 6-through-10 make a percentage less than the Top 5 guys. Again, you won't get the "I was drafted 10th but I should have been 6th or 7th" etc.

Guys 11-through-15 make a percentage less than guys 6-through-10.

And lastly, all guys picked 16th through the end of the 1st round, regardless of compensatory picks, make a certain amount.

2nd round makes x-amount no matter their selection position.

3rd round makes y-amount.

4th round makes z-amount.

Etc., etc.

Simplify the process.

------------------------

FOR EXAMPLE (using loose figures, not exact amounts):

Round 1, Top 5 picks is as follows: Player 1 makes $20 million, Player 2 makes $18 million, Player 3 makes $16 million, Player 4 makes $14 million, and Player 5 makes $12 million. They all make a nice cut, and there's a $8 million difference between Pick 1 and Pick 5...which means it STILL makes sense to try and be the #1 pick vs. dropping to #5. But even if you drop to #5 due to a bad combine, etc., you're still not getting blown out of the water vs. the No. 1 pick's contract (like it is now).

Round 1, Picks 6-10 is as follows: Player 6 makes $10 million, Player 7 $9 mill, Player 8 $8 mill, Player 9 $7 mill, and player 10 $6 mill. A decrease by $1 million for each step down.

Round 1, Picks 11-15 could make a range that differs by like $50k for each spot down.

----------------

These are all just random numbers, to show how the NFL could slot players and keep a "range" to make sure guys picked in the Top 5 pay out like a Top 5 guy should, and picks 6-through-10 pay out nicely, as well, but not like it would if you were a Top 5 guy. So on and so forth, as you progress down the first round.

This would make players appreciate draft RANGE and not the exact selection position they were drafted for. It could also help to reduce a lot of the media hype about "This guy is a bust at No. 1!" and "That guy should have been a No. 1 but was chosen 5th instead, what insanity!" Now you're looking at it not being a big deal if you were picked 2nd or 3rd or 4th, etc.
Is that how they do it in the NBA?

I like how the NBA does their rookie contracts.

CloakNNNdagger
07-12-2011, 09:44 PM
Is that how they do it in the NBA?

I like how the NBA does their rookie contracts.

I don't know that the NBA approach would be in any way acceptable to both parties, especially the players.

NBA players drafted in the first round get a contract guaranteed for two years, and the salary is determined by the players draft position.

The number one pick is guaranteed $4.4 million for the first year, and $4.75 million for the second year. The numbers decrease the lower the player is picked, so the number 30 player only gets $877,000 his first year.

After two years, teams have options to extend the rookie contracts, paying an increasing salary each year. If a team keeps exercising its extension rights, it can keep a player signed for seven seasons before he can finally become a free agent.

Second round picks aren't guaranteed anything. Teams usually bring them into training camp, but they don't have to give the player a contract or a roster spot, nor is there any guarantee about what the player will be paid, beyond the NBA minimum salary.

michaelm
07-12-2011, 10:42 PM
This thread has been alive since April 25th, and I've seen it dozens of times.

It was only just now that I read the thread title for the 30th time, and thought that Judd Nelson had ordered an end to the lockout.


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZ6IeOfElNW_IabrpLN6ZILF5bFbpt7 MlG-lHXitPixIyAenTb4A


*disclaimer*
I haven't read the entire thread. Someone else might have already posted something this stupid.


-

TEXANRED
07-12-2011, 11:01 PM
I don't know that the NBA approach would be in any way acceptable to both parties, especially the players.

NBA players drafted in the first round get a contract guaranteed for two years, and the salary is determined by the players draft position.

The number one pick is guaranteed $4.4 million for the first year, and $4.75 million for the second year. The numbers decrease the lower the player is picked, so the number 30 player only gets $877,000 his first year.

After two years, teams have options to extend the rookie contracts, paying an increasing salary each year. If a team keeps exercising its extension rights, it can keep a player signed for seven seasons before he can finally become a free agent.

Second round picks aren't guaranteed anything. Teams usually bring them into training camp, but they don't have to give the player a contract or a roster spot, nor is there any guarantee about what the player will be paid, beyond the NBA minimum salary.
See that is pretty simple. Only the NFL version has a sliding scale to include all rounds.

A world with no hold outs would be great.

Dutchrudder
07-13-2011, 12:09 AM
I'll take it one step further, to reduce the drama every year about how a player picked #3 holds out for #1 money because he feels HE is the best pick and was passed over for various reasons.

My plan is to slot the first five guys to make practically the SAME contract amount, regardless of being picked 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th. This way, you get the Top 5 players and they all make verrrry similar money.
....

Yeah, that's similar to what I was saying, but having a specific subtraction for each slot of each round. Start at 5 million with the #1 guy and go down 100,000 per slot. So 4.9 m to #2, 4.8 to #3, etc. Stop at 32 at 1.8 million. Then have it go down less from 32-64, I would think 25,000 per slot would work, which would put 65 at just under 1 million. Then let it reduce by 20,000 per slot, so you end up near the minimum rookie salary by #100 pick. So rounds 4-7 picks are all about minimum deals.

GP
07-13-2011, 12:42 AM
Yeah, that's similar to what I was saying, but having a specific subtraction for each slot of each round. Start at 5 million with the #1 guy and go down 100,000 per slot. So 4.9 m to #2, 4.8 to #3, etc. Stop at 32 at 1.8 million. Then have it go down less from 32-64, I would think 25,000 per slot would work, which would put 65 at just under 1 million. Then let it reduce by 20,000 per slot, so you end up near the minimum rookie salary by #100 pick. So rounds 4-7 picks are all about minimum deals.

I wonder if your idea would work, though, as it relates to the higher draft picks? I don't think it works having the #2 overall pick only making $100,000 less than the #1 overall pick.

That's why I used decreasing increments of $2 million between each slot for picks 1-thourhg-5, until you reach picks 6-through-10 which then went to decreasing increments of $1 million between each slot.

This way, you're telling picks 1-through-5 that it's something special to be in the Top 5 of the whole draft class. Yet there's still some competitive fire with those guys all trying to be as high in the 1-through-5 range as they can, since it means a few million bucks better or worse based on where they land in that range.

Then, picks 6-through-10 don't get rewarded as much...but they also don't have too much of a gap between themselves in that 6-through-10 range, either. Sort of acts like a good equalizer for those guys: Knowing that you can fall anywhere in 6-through-10 range and the guys ahead of you are not gaining too much more than you have.

I like your idea about the $100,000 difference, but only for lower ranges of draft position. $100k difference, IMO, would be how you and I would treat $1 vs. 50-cents, so to speak. Not that big of a deal. I'd rather beat you in cards and win a $200 pot than to play all night and only get $50. If that makes sense.

In other words: $100k increments at the top spots doesn't seem to engender a passion for the top guys of every draft to do all they can do in order to rise to the top of the class when the draft is said and done. I'd do just enough to land in the Top 10 and rationalize that I still made out as well as #1 guy did. THAT scenario might devalue the build-up to the draft, when guys are usually trying to get to the top or as close to the top of the draft order as possible.

I like your idea of rounds 4-through-7 just being a standard contract. Although many might argue you need to make it rounds 5-through-7, leaving round 4 as its own beast..which I can see why, since you can still get good value in round 4. Lots of TEs get drafted in that round, LOL.

thunderkyss
07-13-2011, 12:56 AM
ESPN ticker rolled across the screen last night, about midnight.

It said a deal is near.

The only item left to decide upon is the ROOKIE PAY SCALE.

I've given up already. I drew the line at the 11th & they took a siesta.

They're not worried about us....

It's going to back fire on them, we're going to find something else to captivate our interest & they'll be fighting tooth & nail to get us back.

GP
07-13-2011, 09:54 AM
I've given up already. I drew the line at the 11th & they took a siesta.

They're not worried about us....

It's going to back fire on them, we're going to find something else to captivate our interest & they'll be fighting tooth & nail to get us back.

Oh, I think they are very worried about fans. Which is why they've come out and offered up a set "date" for the deal to be agreed upon and then signed.

Besides, I see a lot of you guys talking tough about "finding other things to do" etc. It sounds good, but the NFL is like that chick that got your mind all messed up in college. She got inside your head, she left you, and you say you're over her...but then she calls one day and asks you to hang out at her place and have a few drinks and watch a movie.

Tell me what you're going to do. Are you going to answer her with "Yeah, no thanks. I'm going to my mom's house for meatloaf tonight." LOL.

When the NFL announces the season is officially on, every fan is going to fall right back in love with the psycho chick and go over to her house for drinks and a movie.

But it sounds cool to say you're over her. Us guys are all the same.

Cjeremy635
07-13-2011, 10:00 AM
Oh, I think they are very worried about fans. Which is why they've come out and offered up a set "date" for the deal to be agreed upon and then signed.

Besides, I see a lot of you guys talking tough about "finding other things to do" etc. It sounds good, but the NFL is like that chick that got your mind all messed up in college. She got inside your head, she left you, and you say you're over her...but then she calls one day and asks you to hang out at her place and have a few drinks and watch a movie.

Tell me what you're going to do. Are you going to answer her with "Yeah, no thanks. I'm going to my mom's house for meatloaf tonight." LOL.

When the NFL announces the season is officially on, every fan is going to fall right back in love with the psycho chick and go over to her house for drinks and a movie.

But it sounds cool to say you're over her. Us guys are all the same.

It's sick, but so true!

Dutchrudder
07-13-2011, 10:00 AM
I wonder if your idea would work, though, as it relates to the higher draft picks? I don't think it works having the #2 overall pick only making $100,000 less than the #1 overall pick.

That's why I used decreasing increments of $2 million between each slot for picks 1-thourhg-5, until you reach picks 6-through-10 which then went to decreasing increments of $1 million between each slot.

This way, you're telling picks 1-through-5 that it's something special to be in the Top 5 of the whole draft class. Yet there's still some competitive fire with those guys all trying to be as high in the 1-through-5 range as they can, since it means a few million bucks better or worse based on where they land in that range.

Then, picks 6-through-10 don't get rewarded as much...but they also don't have too much of a gap between themselves in that 6-through-10 range, either. Sort of acts like a good equalizer for those guys: Knowing that you can fall anywhere in 6-through-10 range and the guys ahead of you are not gaining too much more than you have.

I like your idea about the $100,000 difference, but only for lower ranges of draft position. $100k difference, IMO, would be how you and I would treat $1 vs. 50-cents, so to speak. Not that big of a deal. I'd rather beat you in cards and win a $200 pot than to play all night and only get $50. If that makes sense.

In other words: $100k increments at the top spots doesn't seem to engender a passion for the top guys of every draft to do all they can do in order to rise to the top of the class when the draft is said and done. I'd do just enough to land in the Top 10 and rationalize that I still made out as well as #1 guy did. THAT scenario might devalue the build-up to the draft, when guys are usually trying to get to the top or as close to the top of the draft order as possible.

I like your idea of rounds 4-through-7 just being a standard contract. Although many might argue you need to make it rounds 5-through-7, leaving round 4 as its own beast..which I can see why, since you can still get good value in round 4. Lots of TEs get drafted in that round, LOL.

But it's not just 100k per slot, if the contract is 4 years. It's 400k per slot throughout the whole contract. So #1 would make 20 million over 4 years, #2 19.6, 19.2, 18.8. 18.4, etc. So the difference between 1 and 5 is 1.6 million. The difference between #1 and #32 is over 12 million. I think that puts a lot of pressure on players to become 1st round picks at the very least and still rewards the player for being a higher pick.

On top of that, I would propose the guaranteed years scaling down from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round as well. No need for anyone in the league to pay 20 million for a Jamarcus Russell. That doesn't help the players or the teams at all. So by guaranteeing only up to three years, you limit the dead money in the league, which doesn't help anyone.

I'm also happy to reduce the amount of rookie compensation even further if they would go for it. I think the NBA has it right, in that you only reward the top 14 or so picks, and the rest get peanuts in comparison. A lot of NFL rookies would do well to start out at 200,000 a year and be forced to earn a big contract. If the top contract in the NFL draft was only 10 million total, I would be happy with that, but I think it would warrant free agency being moved down to 3 years of accrued time.

GP
07-13-2011, 10:08 AM
But it's not just 100k per slot, if the contract is 4 years. It's 400k per slot throughout the whole contract. So #1 would make 20 million over 4 years, #2 19.6, 19.2, 18.8. 18.4, etc. So the difference between 1 and 5 is 1.6 million. The difference between #1 and #32 is over 12 million. I think that puts a lot of pressure on players to become 1st round picks at the very least and still rewards the player for being a higher pick.

On top of that, I would propose the guaranteed years scaling down from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round as well. No need for anyone in the league to pay 20 million for a Jamarcus Russell. That doesn't help the players or the teams at all. So by guaranteeing only up to three years, you limit the dead money in the league, which doesn't help anyone.

I'm also happy to reduce the amount of rookie compensation even further if they would go for it. I think the NBA has it right, in that you only reward the top 14 or so picks, and the rest get peanuts in comparison. A lot of NFL rookies would do well to start out at 200,000 a year and be forced to earn a big contract. If the top contract in the NFL draft was only 10 million total, I would be happy with that, but I think it would warrant free agency being moved down to 3 years of accrued time.

Ah, I see. My bad.

Dutchrudder
07-13-2011, 10:38 AM
Ah, I see. My bad.

Just for kicks I put our proposals into an Excel sheet side by side with the 2006 draft. I'm assuming that from #11-32 you reduce the contract total value by 50,000 per slot. AVG columns are average contract value per year over 4 years. Totals at the bottom are sums for the first two columns and an average for the other two to show the difference in money invested.

Looking at it this way, I like yours more because you pay them less by about 180 million in the first round alone. Certainly would remove more of the risk of rookies than my idea. I can get on board with it.

***Values are in million*******
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/nflrookiewagescale.jpg

So do we have a deal?

drs23
07-13-2011, 11:07 AM
Just for kicks I put our proposals into an Excel sheet side by side with the 2006 draft. I'm assuming that from #11-32 you reduce the contract total value by 50,000 per slot. AVG columns are average contract value per year over 4 years. Totals at the bottom are sums for the first two columns and an average for the other two to show the difference in money invested.

Looking at it this way, I like yours more because you pay them less by about 180 million in the first round alone. Certainly would remove more of the risk of rookies than my idea. I can get on board with it.

***Values are in million*******
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/nflrookiewagescale.jpg

So do we have a deal?

I'm in! Where do they sign?

HOU-TEX
07-13-2011, 11:26 AM
Drew Brees

“We’re very close to a settlement,” Brees said on XX Sports Radio in San Diego. “We’re at that point in the negotiations where there’s just a few more details that need to be ironed out.”

“Obviously there’s a big sense of urgency, especially in the next week with the owners’ meeting on July 21,” Brees said. “I think we’re all optimistic and hoping we can finalize a deal for that time.”

“The fact of the matter is that we do have a very fair proposal on the table right now in front of the owners,” Brees said. “They’ve talked a lot here over the last week about how, ‘Wer’e going to get a deal done before the 21st, for the meetings.’ Well, now the ball’s in their court because we have a very fair proposal.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/13/drew-brees-were-very-close-to-a-settlement/

TEXANRED
07-13-2011, 11:33 AM
Drew Brees







http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/13/drew-brees-were-very-close-to-a-settlement/

Seeing that Brees is on record saying it means a little more than an ESPN "Insider" saying some player who remains anonymous is angry and no deal will be done anytime soon.

Sometimes I really do think ESPN makes things up.

HOU-TEX
07-13-2011, 11:38 AM
Seeing that Brees is on record saying it means a little more than an ESPN "Insider" saying some player who remains anonymous is angry and no deal will be done anytime soon.

Sometimes I really do think ESPN makes things up.

True. Honestly, I (and surely everyone else) just want this thing done and over with. Things can easily go down hill, especially without Boylan present. Hopefully they're just negotiating the little things now, which might make it harder to really screw up. Like, for example, how FA and the season will be fired back up.

GP
07-13-2011, 05:17 PM
Just for kicks I put our proposals into an Excel sheet side by side with the 2006 draft. I'm assuming that from #11-32 you reduce the contract total value by 50,000 per slot. AVG columns are average contract value per year over 4 years. Totals at the bottom are sums for the first two columns and an average for the other two to show the difference in money invested.

Looking at it this way, I like yours more because you pay them less by about 180 million in the first round alone. Certainly would remove more of the risk of rookies than my idea. I can get on board with it.

***Values are in million*******
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/nflrookiewagescale.jpg

So do we have a deal?

Man, that was an awesome effort. I'd rep you for it, but just rep'd you for something else earlier.

I was just shooting from the hip with my numbers.

I was thinking about where to start, which I came up with what I thought was actually a REALLY low number ($20 mill for a 4-year contract for the #1 guy) and then just decided to go down by $2 mill-per-slot until I reach a point where I could lessen the increment decreases due to how far the money dropped due to picks 1-through-5.

I think players would burn my house down if I were to be a person who presented that model AND had a chance to implement it. LOL. I'd like to see owners reduce player salaries and also reduce the prices for fans, even if it's just a little bit, but it won't happen. If they did, I think it would grow the sport even more.

HOU-TEX
07-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Per a Trotter tweet

NFL source says there has been positive movement on both sides today re: rookie pay issue. this is big if it holds up. stay tuned.

gary
07-14-2011, 02:04 PM
Per a Trotter tweetOwners to the players hurry up guys cash is at stake.

HOU-TEX
07-14-2011, 02:18 PM
Owners to the players hurry up guys cash is at stake.

That's very true, Gary. The window for both sides is decreasing by the hour.

gary
07-14-2011, 02:32 PM
That's very true, Gary. The window for both sides is decreasing by the hour.There is a lot of money to be lost.

Allstar
07-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Albert Breer

Significant progress on rookie salary system today. In fact, if the parties can work out a couple minor issues, it could be solved. ...

... The resolution of this issue would be very big in these talks. As of now, it's the biggest outstanding issue.

TD
07-14-2011, 02:53 PM
Just for kicks I put our proposals into an Excel sheet side by side with the 2006 draft. I'm assuming that from #11-32 you reduce the contract total value by 50,000 per slot. AVG columns are average contract value per year over 4 years. Totals at the bottom are sums for the first two columns and an average for the other two to show the difference in money invested.

Looking at it this way, I like yours more because you pay them less by about 180 million in the first round alone. Certainly would remove more of the risk of rookies than my idea. I can get on board with it.

***Values are in million*******
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/nflrookiewagescale.jpg

So do we have a deal?

Am I reading this wrong? The GP column seems to reboot at pick #11. #10 and #30 both average $1.5M.

Dutchrudder
07-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Am I reading this wrong? The GP column seems to reboot at pick #11. #10 and #30 both average $1.5M.

Leave it to the accountant to point out the small error in the maths...

Fixed it :D

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/nflrookiewagescale-1.jpg

GP
07-14-2011, 03:50 PM
Imagine an NFL world where every player and every team knew, automatically, the exact amount of that first contract.

They're rookies, having never spent a single second on an NFL field, and as such they should have their first contract fixed and earn a bigger one later on.

disaacks3
07-14-2011, 04:23 PM
Imagine an NFL world where every player and every team knew, automatically, the exact amount of that first contract.

They're rookies, having never spent a single second on an NFL field, and as such they should have their first contract fixed and earn a bigger one later on.

...and imagine the fan joy of knowing that there wouldn't be any holdout over a (rookie) contract as there's little/no wiggle room.

TD
07-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Leave it to the accountant to point out the small error in the maths...

Fixed it :D

lol...well I wasn't being critical. I was trying to see which I thought was more doable and GP's was dropping awfully fast while yours seemed slow.

Its interesting to look at though. I did one with $5M avg for #1 with 2 - 10 getting 93% of the person above them; 11 - 20 getting 95% of the person above them; and the rest getting 98% of the person above them.

#32 wound up at $1.22M and the avg was $2.285M.

I expect them to use sliding scale percentages like that, but knowing the NFL.....FAR more complicated.

ChampionTexan
07-14-2011, 06:06 PM
NFL players and owners have agreed in principle to a new rookie wage scale, sources on both side told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

There remains a handful of other issues that need to be worked out and talks are continuing, but the sources told Schefter that the wage scale is no longer considered an impediment to a new collective bargaining agreement.

LINK (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6768521/nfl-lockout-owners-players-agree-rookie-wage-scale-sources-say)

Allstar
07-14-2011, 06:36 PM
That's the best news we probably could have hoped for today. This is a very positive sign.

EDIT:

Rookie Wage Scale Agreed Upon (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6768521/nfl-lockout-owners-players-agree-rookie-wage-system-sources-say)
Sources: NFL and NFLPA agree to rookie wage scale during negotiations Thursday in New York

NEW YORK -- NFL players and owners have agreed in principle to a new rookie wage system, sources on both sides told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

There remains a handful of other issues that need to be worked out and talks are continuing, but the sources told Schefter the rookie wage system is no longer considered an impediment to a new collective bargaining agreement.

A management negotiator told ESPN senior NFL analyst Chris Mortensen that the rookie system is "done," but expected there to be some "tweaking" when the deal is written out. The exact language of the system is being worked out by both side's lawyer, sources told Mortensen.

Sources told Mortensen the two sides expect to work late into Thursday night and return Friday morning to work on open issues that include workman's compensation, extra right-of-first-refusals on this year's free agent class, settlement on the television damages and the antitrust lawsuit and issues relating to commercial sponsorships.

Additionally, the sources said owners want the NFL Players Association to recertify as a union and settle all grievances through arbitration without judicial oversight. To gain advantages on many of the remaining issues, sources say the players may be willing to grant the owners' request for a comprehensive arbitration system without judicial oversight, a thorn in the owners' side since 1993 on grievance cases that have been appealed to U.S. District Judge David Doty.

The players currently are unwilling to grant NFL teams extra right-of-first-refusals on this year's free agent class because many of them were restricted under last year's uncapped system. Owners have asked for the right to designate three free agents that would give teams the ability to match any contract the three players signed with another team.

Details for the rookie system are uncertain but multiple sources told ESPN.com senior NFL writer John Clayton earlier Wednesday that owners were willing to move toward the players' position regarding the fifth-year option in contracts of players selected top 10 overall, the sources said. The owners, sources said, offered to pay those players the top 10 salaries at their positions in their fifth year.

Players, however, rejected the owners' proposal to have the remaining first-round picks make 150 percent of what starters make at their positions with a possible salary floor of $4 million and a salary ceiling of $12 million, sources said.

High-level sources told Clayton all first rounders would get four-year deals, plus the option year, under current proposals. That option could be executed by the team after the third or fourth year of the contract.

Owners had been seeking a fixed amount for the fifth-year option, roughly $4 million. Players wanted a top 10 salary at the position for the top 16 picks and proposed a top 15 salary for picks 17 through 32.

During a lunch break Thursday, sources told Paolantonio the lawyers were working on some of the language and other details of a potential agreement.

It is not known what proposals brought each sides closer together on Thursday, but sides stretched into the evening for the second straight night.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and eight of the 10 members of the owners' labor committee were present at Thursday's session, including Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys and John Mara of the New York Giants. Two new participants Thursday were Green Bay Packers CEO Mark Murphy and San Diego Chargers owner Dean Spanos.

NFL Players Association chief DeMaurice Smith and a half-dozen current or former players also were there, including Indianapolis Colts center Jeff Saturday, Baltimore Ravens defensive back Domonique Foxworth and Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora. Umenyiora is one of 10 player plaintiffs in a federal antitrust lawsuit against the league.

Sources told ESPN's Mortensen that Atlanta Falcons offensive lineman Tyson Clabo, a pending free agent, also is in attendance.

After Wednesday's lengthy session, a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations told Paolantonio a lot of "hard work" remains before a new collective bargaining agreement can be struck. The source also wouldn't characterize a deal as being "close."

Asked whether he thought the owners would be presented with an agreement during the July 21 league meetings in Atlanta, the source hedged, saying, "I just don't know."

With deadlines coming up next week to get training camps and the preseason started, one owner told Paolantonio the owners are trying to figure out how to get the league operational in time "so that we don't lose a week of preseason and we don't lose $200 million."

The Hall of Fame game that opens the exhibition season is scheduled for Aug. 7 between the St. Louis Rams and Chicago Bears, who hope to be able to start training camp at the end of next week. Yet camps will not open without a new CBA in place.

Talks gained steam in May, overseen by a court-appointed mediator, U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan, who is on vacation this week. Boylan ordered both sides to meet with him in Minneapolis next week, and the owners have a special meeting set for July 21, where they potentially could ratify a new deal -- if one is reached by then.

Even once an agreement in principle on the core economic issues is drawn up, there will be more work to be done. That's because there are certain issues that won't be addressed in full until after the NFLPA re-establishes itself as a union -- a process that might take a couple of days -- and can then serve once again as a collective bargaining unit for the players.

Items that could fall under that umbrella include the league's drug-testing program, health insurance, retired players' pensions and other benefits, none of which is likely to be resolved completely while the union is still dissolved.

There's also a chance the players could pursue a lockout injunction for rookies and free agents after an appeals court ruled last week that the work stoppage could continue.

Disruptions to the planned preseason schedule would decrease the overall revenue pie. While the parameters for how to divide the more than $9 billion in annual league revenues have been sketched out, there are other sticking points still under discussion, including a rookie salary system and free agency guidelines.

The owners want longer rookie contracts and have been seeking more right-of-first-refusal tags for unrestricted free agents. The players want to get back to free agency rules similar to 2009, when a four-year veteran whose contract expired was unrestricted. That minimum shifted to six years in 2010, when there was no salary cap because owners already had declared they were opting out of the old CBA.

Allstar
07-14-2011, 07:29 PM
Chris Mortensen via Twitter:

Q: So how much less will rookies get as compared to the last CBA?
A: About half on an entry basis.

Q: will GMs still be given chance to resign own FA before open market panthers Need to keep Charles Johnson
A: 3 days

Q: Any chance the owners get their way on the right of first refusal nonsense?
A: I would be surprised

Q: is that finalized, the 3days)?
A: No but anticipated clubs will have 72 hours to re-sign own guys before FA hits

Q: who gives final say that the lockout is OFFICIALLY over?
A: ...no, both sides vote. Agreement has to settle Brady case, too

Q: any idea on what the salary cap will be?
A: Ive heard around $120 mill-to-$122 mill this year (minus benefits)

badboy
07-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Everything now put on hold as neither side can agree on whose penis is bigger.

Allstar
07-14-2011, 08:37 PM
dkaplanSBJ daniel kaplan
ESPN reporting NFLPA has agreed to cede judicial oversight. This is a major concession. Retired judge panel instead. Great scoop mort

mortreport Chris Mortensen
Sal Paolantonio also reporting that settlement is on fast track....

mortreport Chris Mortensen
Intriguing twist just reported: Overhaul of arbitration system being negotiated, panel of ex-judges could review even commish discipline

mortreport Chris Mortensen
If arbitration system is overhauled with judges panel, NFLPA would have to give up judicial oversight as they had w Judge Doty. Big deal.

mortreport Chris Mortensen
Commissioner discipline has always been appealed back to commish. If this new system comes into play, judges panel would review. Negotiating

mortreport Chris Mortensen
RT @Cowboy829: @mortreport stumbling block? >> Don't know but doubt it. Owners want judicial oversight banished on grievances. Give-n-take

mortreport Chris Mortensen
RT @Curry_Brandon93: @mortreport how much longer til at least a agreement in principle. >> At this pace, could be within 24-48 hrs.

gary
07-14-2011, 09:03 PM
I knew there was something about the movie Money Talks.

Allstar
07-14-2011, 09:08 PM
Progress these last few hours (per Sportscenter)

Tentative agreement to have 2011 cap number at $120 million

Agreement on parameters of the new rookie wage structure

Players have agreed federal courts will no longer exercise oversight over the new CBA



looks like this ***** will be over with soon

Texans34Life
07-14-2011, 09:41 PM
dkaplanSBJ
by caplannfl
The salary cap for 2011 wld be 120 Mln per club and with benefits 141 mln. Yes that was the amount the owners offerred in march

Allstar
07-14-2011, 09:47 PM
JasonLaCanfora Jason La Canfora
A lot of heavy lifting done. Cap will be around $123M, with certain new exceptions and credits making it "feel" more like $130/team

Clayton also reports there are discussions for a player exemption up to $3 mill this yr. Cap of $120m down from $128m in 2009.

gary
07-14-2011, 09:47 PM
dkaplanSBJ
by caplannfl
The salary cap for 2011 wld be 120 Mln per club and with benefits 141 mln. Yes that was the amount the owners offerred in marchWould that be 141 million? Just to clarify.

Allstar
07-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Would that be 141 million? Just to clarify.

120 mil cap, 21 mil benefits. 120 + 21 = 141

Edit: lol woops

gary
07-14-2011, 09:55 PM
120 mil cap, 21 mil benefits. 120 + 121 = 141The two are separate. What was the 2010 salary cap?

GP
07-14-2011, 09:59 PM
JasonLaCanfora Jason La Canfora
A lot of heavy lifting done. Cap will be around $123M, with certain new exceptions and credits making it "feel" more like $130/team

Clayton also reports there are discussions for a player exemption up to $3 mill this yr. Cap of $120m down from $128m in 2009.

The cap is $8 million LESS than 2009. Interesting....

Which means a team who normally operated anywhere from $120,000,001 to $127,999,999 will now have to find a way to get at/below $120 mill. Right?

So this has ramifications, maybe, for a few teams? I'd like someone to see if they can find what teams were over $120 mill on player salary cap. If those teams have a few higher profile free agents to consider keeping or letting them walk, there might be more movement than normal.

I have a feeling there will be some greater-than-normal free agent movement this year. Should be rather exciting to see which players end up on which teams.

CloakNNNdagger
07-14-2011, 10:01 PM
120 mil cap, 21 mil benefits. 120 + 121 = 141

What school you went?????????

GP
07-14-2011, 10:03 PM
What school you went?????????

I think it was the Obama Center For Financial Success.

gary
07-14-2011, 10:05 PM
The cap is $8 million LESS than 2009. Interesting....

Which means a team who normally operated anywhere from $120,000,001 to $127,999,999 will now have to find a way to get at/below $120 mill. Right?

So this has ramifications, maybe, for a few teams? I'd like someone to see if they can find what teams were over $120 mill on player salary cap. If those teams have a few higher profile free agents to consider keeping or letting them walk, there might be more movement than normal.

I have a feeling there will be some greater-than-normal free agent movement this year. Should be rather exciting to see which players end up on which teams.Eight million less? Do you guys feel like this new cap will help or hurt teams overall? Opinions?

Allstar
07-14-2011, 10:06 PM
The two are separate. What was the 2010 salary cap?

2010 was uncapped. The statement was 120 mil cap, 141 with benefits. So that means the cap is 120 mil and then add the 21 mil benefits to get 141.

gary
07-14-2011, 10:08 PM
What school you went?????????I super read sometimes and just caught that.

CloakNNNdagger
07-14-2011, 10:09 PM
The cap is $8 million LESS than 2009. Interesting....

Which means a team who normally operated anywhere from $120,000,001 to $127,999,999 will now have to find a way to get at/below $120 mill. Right?

So this has ramifications, maybe, for a few teams? I'd like someone to see if they can find what teams were over $120 mill on player salary cap. If those teams have a few higher profile free agents to consider keeping or letting them walk, there might be more movement than normal.

I have a feeling there will be some greater-than-normal free agent movement this year. Should be rather exciting to see which players end up on which teams.

From another thread I previously posted "Salary cap plan could pose issues":

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1722053&postcount=1

CloakNNNdagger
07-14-2011, 10:11 PM
I think it was the Obama Center For Financial Success.

:spit:

Allstar
07-14-2011, 10:11 PM
Like I posted earlier, Jason La Canfora reported that even though the cap is $120 mil, with certain new exceptions and credits make it "feel" more like $130/ million. I'm guessing it will be the the MLE/LLE in the NBA?

I would maybe suspect that the cap being smaller with loopholes and exceptions are a way around the new rule that requires them to use 90%+ of the cap.

gary
07-14-2011, 10:13 PM
2010 was uncapped. The statement was 120 mil cap, 141 with benefits. So that means the cap is 120 mil and then add the 21 mil benefits to get 141.So it is not 121 and 120? It is just 21 more added on not 121. I think we have it right now I hope so.

GP
07-14-2011, 10:19 PM
Like I posted earlier, Jason La Canfora reported that even though the cap is $120 mil, with certain new exceptions and credits make it "feel" more like $130/ million. I'm guessing it will be the the MLE/LLE in the NBA?

I would maybe suspect that the cap being smaller with loopholes and exceptions are a way around the new rule that requires them to use 90%+ of the cap.

I see. Thanks.

So in essence, the figure is fluid (not in cement).

A team can spend an extra allowance of cash on players and have it not count toward the $120 mill. This is where the "feels like $130 mill" phrasing comes from.

There are ways for teams to structure contracts whereby you can go over the $120 mill, to a certain degree, before getting busted for being "over" the cap.

Would this analogy be acceptable: It's like working at a place that might let you cash in your Paid Time Off at the end of the year, or roll it over, etc. They're giving you extra perks that still fit within a certain model/framework. NFL teams will somehow add some extras or perks into the contracts that cost the team more money but isn't considered as "salary."

This would be used to tempt players to stick with the team rather than venture out to another team...it sweetens the pot a little bit.

gary
07-14-2011, 10:25 PM
Why am I just getting dizzy here?

Allstar
07-14-2011, 10:28 PM
So it is not 121 and 120? It is just 21 more added on not 121. I think we have it right now I hope so.

That was my fault. It's a $120 million cap(reported by ESPN) and $21 in benefits. NFL Network is reporting that the cap is $123 though. Maybe they are factoring in the $3 mil exception.

GP
07-14-2011, 10:30 PM
Why am I just getting dizzy here?

If a team spends over $120 million on player salaries, they technically MIGHT get slapped by the NFL with a penalty for going over that "cap." This is to try and make sure that the rich teams (Cowboys, for example) could not spend big, big money and essentially buy all the better players in the NFL.

What I think Allstar was saying is this:

The salary cap can "feel" like it's really at $130 million because of how teams will be allowed to stick in some extra benefits to their players, which then pushes them OVER the $120 million mark...but yet is not considered by the NFL to have violated the $120 million salary cap.

Hope that helps.

Wolf
07-14-2011, 10:32 PM
I think it was the Obama Financial University of California at Kerman.



:spin:

:runaway:

Allstar
07-14-2011, 10:35 PM
I see. Thanks.

So in essence, the figure is fluid (not in cement).

A team can spend an extra allowance of cash on players and have it not count toward the $120 mill. This is where the "feels like $130 mill" phrasing comes from.

There are ways for teams to structure contracts whereby you can go over the $120 mill, to a certain degree, before getting busted for being "over" the cap.

Would this analogy be acceptable: It's like working at a place that might let you cash in your Paid Time Off at the end of the year, or roll it over, etc. They're giving you extra perks that still fit within a certain model/framework. NFL teams will somehow add some extras or perks into the contracts that cost the team more money but isn't considered as "salary."

This would be used to tempt players to stick with the team rather than venture out to another team...it sweetens the pot a little bit.

Maybe, but it could also work like the NBA. The NBA cap is set, but team with a certain % (let's say 90) used are allowed a Mid Level Exception which allows them around 5-7 million extra cash that they can use to go over the cap. There is also a Bi-annual exception around 2 million that all teams are given every other year that can also go over the cap. Both exceptions count towards the cap if you were under it though (although you would have to be very near the max of the cap to even receive a MLE).

So if things were like that, your scenario wouldn't exactly work in that you can't sign players and have it "not count towards the cap". There might just be exceptions to keep spending if you have already reached the cap.

I'm just speculating though, so who knows.

GP
07-14-2011, 10:56 PM
@adbrandt Another note on rookie compromise: the 5th year salary for first-round picks will not be a fixed number, as Owners have wanted. about an hour ago

Allstar
07-14-2011, 11:59 PM
mortreport Chris Mortensen
Why Rookie Wage "Scale" is misnomer: Teams get hard cash rookie cap. How they distribute up to them; negotiations still very much in play