PDA

View Full Version : So you like numbers and stats thinking that Kareem Jackson was bad!


76Texan
04-09-2011, 03:57 PM
In a thread started by EllisUnit, I stated that I have no idea how people like Football Outsiders tally their stats, and I do not believe in stats.
Well, here are some different numbers from houstontexans.com
You will have to ask Nick Scurfield where he got the numbers from.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/2010-season-in-review-Cornerback/da37ff73-c8f6-4768-9cd7-ce46435d34d5

Notable number: 53.2 – Completion percentage allowed by Jackson (50 of 94 passes) in 2010. It was the best rate among Texans cornerbacks, and better than the completion percentage allowed by rookie Pro Bowler Devin McCourty (54.5 percent) of the Patriots.

Key splits: Jackson’s 53.2 completion percentage rate also compares favorably to some of the league’s top cornerbacks in their first years as starters: Nnamdi Asomugha (46.3 in 2005), Champ Bailey (47.8 in 1999), Charles Woodson (49.0 in 1998) and Darrelle Revis (59.1 in 2007).

Jackson and Revis’ first-year starting lines are almost identical. Jackson allowed 50 completions on 94 attempts; Revis allowed 55 completions on 93 attempts. Jackson had with two interceptions; Revis had three. Both players had 10 passes defensed.

76Texan
04-09-2011, 04:05 PM
Notes: Asomugha was drafted in 03 but didn't become a full-time starter until 05.
He did not have a career interception until 2006; ie. the whole 2005 when he became a full-time starter, he did not have any INT.
That's 3 years with no INT for Aso.

Rey
04-09-2011, 04:08 PM
I have been saying it, but I don't think Jackson is as bad as he looked last year.

I think a competent defensive coaching staff can turn him into atleast a respectable starter. The tools are there. The technique and production from others around him was not.

Nawzer
04-09-2011, 04:24 PM
KJ was horrible in the first half of the season but he wasn't as bad towards the end. He clearly showed improvement but the rest of the secondary was incompetent on a historic level so it everyone looked bad. KJ wasn't good but he wasn't as bad as Glover Quinn was. Hopefully Wade Phillips can turn things around for those 2 guys in a hurry.

CloakNNNdagger
04-09-2011, 04:35 PM
Interesting stats. But I wonder how much his propensity to FALL DOWN had an effect on his being able to recover and tackle..........that could be the big difference when comparing the other CBs mentioned.:thinking:

Rey
04-09-2011, 04:39 PM
I didn't even look at the stats...Ultimately they really don't matter to me because I trust my eyes.

KJ looked like a dunce a bunch of times last year, but he also made some damn good plays...I think that all the tools are there for him to be successful and I still blame the coaching staff for how bad our d looked last year...

Hagar
04-09-2011, 04:43 PM
Interesting stats. But I wonder how much his propensity to FALL DOWN had an effect on his being able to recover and tackle..........that could be the big difference when comparing the other CBs mentioned.:thinking:

Does anyone have a link to those shiner whiner line blogs? I didn't save any of them and now can't find them on the web. I especially like the Stephen Hawkings TD run.

76Texan
04-09-2011, 04:44 PM
Interesting stats. But I wonder how much his propensity to FALL DOWN had an effect on his being able to recover and tackle..........that could be the big difference when comparing the other CBs mentioned.:thinking:

That was a joke that caugh on like wild fire.
I guarantee with you that when you watch the other CBs on our team, as well as the opponents (and league-wide), you will see a lot of slipping, falling.
In other instances, the CBs donn't fall, but took themselves out of the play, which is worse, because they have no chance to recover.

76Texan
04-09-2011, 04:49 PM
If only it takes no time at all to analyze the games play-by-play, I would have done it already.

Problem is, because I like to be very detail on each play, it takes so darn long.

I've been carrying along with people's notion that Quin was "our best CB" while in fact, I didn't see it that way (yeah right, you're gonna move your best CB to safety).

TimeKiller
04-09-2011, 04:57 PM
Only a mo would try to spin Kareem Jackson into a positive light. Started (meaning, took a lion's share of snaps AND blame for shortcomings) on one of the lowest ranked defenses in the league. Near or at the bottom of every major statistic. Oh but Kareem Jackson wasn't that bad was he?

Yes. He was pretty bad.

76Texan
04-09-2011, 05:18 PM
Only a mo would try to spin Kareem Jackson into a positive light. Started (meaning, took a lion's share of snaps AND blame for shortcomings) on one of the lowest ranked defenses in the league. Near or at the bottom of every major statistic. Oh but Kareem Jackson wasn't that bad was he?

Yes. He was pretty bad.

There's no need to spin anything.
Only those who claim that Jackson is a bust or the worse Cb in the league (nor on the team for that matter) are the ones who's spinning it!

CloakNNNdagger
04-09-2011, 05:30 PM
There's no need to spin anything.
Only those who claim that Jackson is a bust or the worse Cb in the league (nor on the team for that matter) are the ones who's spinning it!

Quite a few of the D have been given a pass on the basis that the coaching was so bad. Some of those players will prove to be as bad as the coaching was. I hope that does not prove to be true in most cases.

76Texan
04-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Quite a few of the D have been given a pass on the basis that the coaching was so bad. Some of those players will prove to be as bad as the coaching was. I hope that does not prove to be true in most cases.

When we watch the Texans game, one of the things to compare is the safety play on both sides.
If the Texans had anywhere near the safety support that our opponents showed, the CB play wouldn't have looked so bad.
(and that's not even counting how other players need to play in different zone schems; ie. how the pass rush ties up with the coverage, and how the LB supports need to be like.)

Lucky
04-09-2011, 08:04 PM
In a thread started by EllisUnit, I stated that I have no idea how people like Football Outsiders tally their stats, and I do not believe in stats.
What about the stats that say the Texans were 31st in passing yards per attempt, 31st in TD pass allowed, and dead last in passing yards allowed? Do you believe in those stats?

Every Texans fan hopes Jackson improves. Most Texans fans realize that Jackson was put in a position to fail. But Texans fans who believe that Kareem Jackson was good in 2010? That would be you and...you.

SteveSlaton20
04-09-2011, 08:32 PM
Notes: Asomugha was drafted in 03 but didn't become a full-time starter until 05.
He did not have a career interception until 2006; ie. the whole 2005 when he became a full-time starter, he did not have any INT.
That's 3 years with no INT for Aso.

your point? 3 years w/ no INT and he's still the best CB in the league.

JimBaker488
04-09-2011, 09:24 PM
I've been carrying along with people's notion that Quin was "our best CB" while in fact, I didn't see it that way (yeah right, you're gonna move your best CB to safety).
Fair point, since generally people agree that CBs are more valuable than safetys it really does make moving a teams best corner to safety illogical.

thunderkyss
04-09-2011, 11:12 PM
Fair point, since generally people agree that CBs are more valuable than safetys it really does make moving a teams best corner to safety illogical.

I personally don't like the idea of moving Quin to safety. But, if we are going to get Aso, we have to do something to keep Quin on the field.

I don't like the idea of moving him to nickel. I think he is too good to come in every now & then. May not be the most talented guy on the field, but he is one of the pure football players on the team. & we need a guy who will do whatever needs to be done on any given play.

Other than DeMeco, we don't have many of those guys on Defense.

Jackson had some issues, nothing we shouldn't have expected from a rookie. Anybody expecting him to play better than he did, in the situation he was in, is an *****. That includes anyone named Kubiak.

Yea, he should start next season along with whatever FA CB we get, if Allen is still on the team, he should be the Nickel.

Moving Quin to safety just tells me McNair told somebody to get off his ass and do what we are paying him to do.

.

HJam72
04-10-2011, 12:19 AM
If only it takes no time at all to analyze the games play-by-play, I would have done it already.

Problem is, because I like to be very detail on each play, it takes so darn long.

I've been carrying along with people's notion that Quin was "our best CB" while in fact, I didn't see it that way (yeah right, you're gonna move your best CB to safety).

I don't know if he was with us all year (I don't think so), but I thought Jason Allen, who has 5 years of experience, was our best CB. Probably not in the long run, but he did alright.

I guess maybe there's a certain lack of speed there, but he did well against those he could cover (speed-wise).

76Texan
04-10-2011, 01:18 AM
QUOTE=Lucky;1676936]What about the stats that say the Texans were 31st in passing yards per attempt, 31st in TD pass allowed, and dead last in passing yards allowed? Do you believe in those stats?Every Texans fan hopes Jackson improves. Most Texans fans realize that Jackson was put in a position to fail. But Texans fans who believe that Kareem Jackson was good in 2010? That would be you and...you.[/QUOTE]

1. You need to break down those stats and be honest to yourself to take out those catches that ought to belong to a safety, put aside those whose responsibilities are shared or unclear (since we can't be sure of the coverage call at times) before you can tell me how many of those Jackson can be accountable for.

Unless you're willing to play 9 or 10 on 11 football; in that case, good luck finding a CB that can match your wanting! (the Texans did play a man short physically, and two-man short mentally.)


1-b.As a general rule, team stats can be more reliable (even though one or two guys can screw it up.) At any rate, stats have no sympathy as to what kind of injury a team may face. If you think that our offense was hampered by AJ's injury, you also ought to think that the opponent caught a break. That means the opponent's CBs caught a break. Same thing with our missing Cushing, Barwin, Demeco, Mario playing hurt, etc.
Lucky, you of all people, you who wants the Texans to draft a rush LB or two so badly, how can you put so much blame on a rookie?

1-c. Where were you when I actually had both McCourty and Jackson on my wish list before the draft.
Having my B.U.T.T covered, it would have been so easy for me to say that, hey, McCourty was hardly an item on this board last year, you guys who didn't see it can't blame it on me when the Texans didn't draft him!
But why do I keep on pressing that what I saw between McCourty and Jackson in their rookie season lend me to believe that Jackson is a better percentage in the long run? (Same thing I saw in their collegiate tapes.)
Eventually, I believe that the fans will come to appreciate the whole package that he brings; but please don't try to make a guy feel unwelcomed because Kubiak failed to deliver a play-off appearance. There's a difference between pay-me-rick and a humble rookie. Or maybe people want more controversy a la Cam Newrton than they are willing to admit, Jackson seems so plain like day-old bread!

2. When I evaluate a CB play, I don't simply watch the time the ball comes near him; I also watch the time the QB can't go near him because he had good coverage. I also watch the time the QB missed an open receiver as well as the time a receiver drop a pass. I watch how the pass rush can help a CB; I watch how a CB can help the pass rush generate a coverage sack. I watch how a CB perform as a force man, stopping the offense from scoring point or advancing the ball on the ground. I watch how a CB plays help defense, making his teammate look better (in the meanwhile his teammates make him look like shiite). I always say the devil is in the details. Human eyes can't see them with our regular span of the eyes. I miss them regularly even in slow motion.
Besides that, it can be treacherous determining what kind of coverage was in place. I am telling you that at times I just want to jump up and choke Frank Bush into oblivion even as I am a very peaceful and calm individual.

3. Do you know that it took me like 2 hours for this post? (and others before).
I do read what people has to say. I do consider back and forth.
I do try to put myself in other people's shoes.
After I've done all that, I would come back and do the same thing again.
We all love football and I continue to approach it that way!

silvrhand
04-10-2011, 02:02 AM
What about the stats that say the Texans were 31st in passing yards per attempt, 31st in TD pass allowed, and dead last in passing yards allowed? Do you believe in those stats?

Every Texans fan hopes Jackson improves. Most Texans fans realize that Jackson was put in a position to fail. But Texans fans who believe that Kareem Jackson was good in 2010? That would be you and...you.

Sure doesn't help when you have safety play like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NudC2w4WYorHqcslq7mRcwXkmIb0H25SCSJZN5Mr3xM?feat=d irectlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NudC2w4WYorHqcslq7mRcwXkmIb0H25SCSJZN5Mr3xM?feat=d irectlink

76Texan
04-10-2011, 02:34 AM
I don't know if he was with us all year (I don't think so), but I thought Jason Allen, who has 5 years of experience, was our best CB. Probably not in the long run, but he did alright.

I guess maybe there's a certain lack of speed there, but he did well against those he could cover (speed-wise).

Allen has speed, excellent speed!
He just make a mistake here and there, as a veteran.
He could be in good position, and lost it in a tick of time.
The inconsistency makes it hard .

Somewhat like Jacoby Jones on offense.

silvrhand
04-10-2011, 03:15 AM
Allen has speed, excellent speed!
He just make a mistake here and there, as a veteran.
He could be in good position, and lost it in a tick of time.
The inconsistency makes it hard .

Somewhat like Jacoby Jones on offense.

76Texan, you are really just wasting a lot of your time, everyone expect our corner to be Deion Sanders or Darryl Green, that run 4.2 40's and come out of nowhere and pick off passes..

:toropalm:

HJam72
04-10-2011, 03:24 AM
Allen has speed, excellent speed!
He just make a mistake here and there, as a veteran.
He could be in good position, and lost it in a tick of time.
The inconsistency makes it hard .

Somewhat like Jacoby Jones on offense.

I was "guessing" about the speed thing, not stating a supposed fact. Apparently, he makes mistakes I didn't see.

otisbean
04-10-2011, 06:23 AM
While KJ certainly looked like a rookie out there and had his share of struggles, if you want to talk about bad, watch our safety play last year - it was basically non-existant. There were numerous times where it looked like we were in a cover 2 and there was no S help over the top or it was REEAALLY late getting there. I think a lot of fans blame the CBs on these plays when in reality the safeties were at fault.

Lucky
04-10-2011, 08:45 AM
I don't know if he was with us all year (I don't think so), but I thought Jason Allen, who has 5 years of experience, was our best CB.
Allen joined the team in week 10 (after the Charger debacle) and became active in week 11. And I agree that Allen eventually became the Texans "best" CB. And that's a pretty sad indictment on the corner play for the Texans when a street FA is your best player back there.


1. You need to break down those stats and be honest to yourself
1-c. Where were you when I actually had both McCourty and Jackson on my wish list before the draft.

Having my B.U.T.T covered
Look, I'm very honest to myself (and everyone else) when giving opinions on this board. I really, really think Kareem Jackson sucked last season. That doesn't preclude the safeties and the coaches sucking, as well. I trust my eyes, and what I saw from Kareem Jackson was (mostly) horrific.

And I'm not blaming you for Kareem Jackson being on the team (???). No reason to cover your ass, here. Not your fault, you didn't draft him or coach him. There's no reason to apologize for his play. I certainly didn't think he, the safeties, or the coaches would perform as poorly as they did. You and I are not responsible. Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith are responsible.
Sure doesn't help when you have safety play like this:

I'm not sure where the safety was supposed to be on that play. I can't believe the intent of the defensive call was to allow the TE to run free, which is what would have happened had the safety not jumped on him.

While KJ certainly looked like a rookie out there and had his share of struggles, if you want to talk about bad, watch our safety play last year...
The safeties have been fired. The DC and the DB coach have been fired. Jackson keeps his job. Jackson will hopefully receive better coaching and improve. My point is that the Texans can't count on that happening. His lack of recovery speed and instincts bring into question whether Kareem is a legit starting CB. There's no reason to pencil in Jackson as a starter. That's an Amobi Okoye fail. That's a David Carr fail. Jackson needs competition, and if he's the best man, he should start.

76Texan
04-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm not sure where the safety was supposed to be on that play. I can't believe the intent of the defensive call was to allow the TE to run free, which is what would have happened had the safety not jumped on him.



1-10-HST 37 (4:19) M.Schaub pass deep middle to J.Jones to SD 46 for 17 yards (E.Weddle)

I had compared these two plays a few times already, but you keep on refusing to see it.

In that Chargers game, the receiver that ran the slant route is #88 K. Wilson and of course, everybody knows Arijotutu ran the deep seam route.

For the Texans, it would be Jacoby Jones and Andre Johnson.

If you pull up the tape on that play when the Chargers defended us, you will see where the FS is supposed to be: back deep bracketing AJ with the CB.
There's a replay you can watch showing clearly that the safety Weddle, did not jump until Schaub released the ball (whereas Wilson had jumped long before that).
You can also see their CB in nearly the same position as Jackson while AJ was in Arijotutu's place: ahead of the CB (because the CB is supposed to slide to the outside 1/3 to cover the corner route.).

Both teams dropped back into a 3 deep 4 underneath zone.
Obviously. the Chargers didn't stretch their zone well enough and so they gave up 17-yd on the slant route; but they did not give up a long TD.
Which one do you prefer?

.....

I also mentioned that in Wade's coverage scheme, there was a specific D-call to avoid the soft zone in such an instance (it's called a "drop-kick call"; I used the wrong term "buster call" previously).
If the safety makes the call (to the CBs); Wilson can jump the slant route, but Quin had to slide over quickly to take his place in the middle instead of covering air. I'm guessing the name "drop-kick" means safety drop down on the slant route while one CB kick up top to cover the deep middle.

(Covering air is a problem I had talked about with spot dropping in the zone.)

76Texan
04-10-2011, 12:02 PM
In the 4th qtr against the Cowboys, around the 10-minute mark, R. Williams caught a short pass and ran for a 63-yd TD.

On this play, Wilson was in "excellent" position to jump ahead of the pass (if he wanted to); instead, he didn't break until late after the throw.
I will tell you why this was suposed to be only a 15-17 yd gain max for the Cowboys.

Again, there were only 2 receivers.
The guy who ran the short route was bracketed by Pollard and Quin.
Actually, he came up with clear intention of blocking Pollard (for a delayed screen to Barber who started in play-action fake.)
The screen would have been the second option for Romo in case Wilson did his job correctly.
I am absolutely positive that the Cowboys intended to run a screen because the RG pull ahead to block Diles.
Actually, this is an illegal pass because the RG crossed the LOS way before Romo thew the ball.
On the field, it was Diles' responsibility to call this to the ref's attention.
On the side line... you can take your choice the culprit (or moron) whose job iwa to monitor these sorts of things.

The only threat Wilson had to worry about was Williams.
Even if he break after the ball left Romo's hand, Wilson only had about 8 yards to the middle of the number 0 (in #50, the midfield number, 13 yards from the line of scrimmage) whereas the WR had 11 yards to run to.
Not only that, Williams had to slow down a tad and reach back to catch the ball.
Even a slow turd like Wilson needs to be able to at least make contact with the receiver there instead of straying a couple of yards away.
He then pulled up lamely (the story I heard is "mommy, I pulled a hammy").
A guy like that has no business on the field.

....

On the other hand, yes, you can hold Jackson accountable for slipping and allowed the catch, which should be at most a 17-yd gain.
Here, Wilson had a chance to jump early for an easy INT (since he had no other threat), but what did he do? He broke late on a play that he should break early; while in the Chargers game, he broke early while he should have to wait to break on the ball - I can even forgive him for breaking a little late.)

....

After Jackson regained his balance, he did make up about 3 yds on Williams (who ran a 4.36 at the combine at about the same weigh he's in the game.)
Had Wilson been able to at least make contact with the receiver, Jackson would have had the chance to jump on the spot or at least to make the tackle a couple of yards afterward.

No, Jackson doesn't have sub 4'3 speed; but to say he lacks recovery speed is a little too much since McCourty basically has the same speed.

....

This is the second instance in which Jackson was blamed for a TD while in fact, it was the safety's responsibility.

And there are more!!!

b0ng
04-10-2011, 01:38 PM
No really though, Kareem Jackson, Glover Quinn, Jason Allen, Brice McCain, Bernard Pollard, Eugene Wilson, Troy Nolan, Sherrick McManis and what other godforsaken warm bodies they threw out there on any given snap were Really Bad last year.

The Texans haven't really had a talented secondary, but last year was undeniably one of the worst "units" we've ever really seen in Houston. Whether Kareem Jackson is salvageable, or Glover Quinn would make a better safety are all relevant points to discuss but in no way would I ever trust a stat that somehow made any part of the Texans secondary above average or better in 2010. All of them were really bad from the coaching on down, most of them have been fired, and hopefully last year will be a faint memory but holy god they were awful last year.

TimeKiller
04-10-2011, 03:08 PM
Wake up 76. You're dreaming bro...

I'm spinning it because I think he was pretty awful? You want to argue for potential/flashes of talent, fine, he's a young man with athleticism and football talent. But he's a young man with athleticism and football talent who didn't have a very good year personally or as a part of a group. Spend another 2 hours wasting your time trying to prove me wrong lolz.....


I bet KJ ends up in the Pro Bowl by the end of this thread :rolleyes:

otisbean
04-11-2011, 05:46 AM
The safeties have been fired. The DC and the DB coach have been fired. Jackson keeps his job. Jackson will hopefully receive better coaching and improve. My point is that the Texans can't count on that happening. His lack of recovery speed and instincts bring into question whether Kareem is a legit starting CB. There's no reason to pencil in Jackson as a starter. That's an Amobi Okoye fail. That's a David Carr fail. Jackson needs competition, and if he's the best man, he should start.[/QUOTE]

KJ runs a 4.4 forty, he has plenty of recovery speed:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profilexnews.php?pyid=69167&draftyear=2010&genpos=CB

I think his perceived lack of instincts could, again, be from poor coaching. IF you have a guy out there being asked to do things he's not good at or unsure about that's on the coaching staff. One of the best things I've heard from Wade was that he will put guys in positions to succeed based on their strengths. If I remember correctly, KJ was a bump a run guy yet they consistently had the CBs playing 10 yds off the ball.

I think KJ has the skill set to be a solid CB in the league, time will tell.

Lucky
04-11-2011, 06:08 AM
KJ runs a 4.4 forty, he has plenty of recovery speed:
[/URL]
According to the NFL, Jackson ran a [URL="http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#workout=FORTY_YARD_DASH&year=2010&position=CB"]4.48 at the combine (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profilexnews.php?pyid=69167&draftyear=2010&genpos=CB). But what does that matter? Jackson hasn't translated that speed to the field. Jackson looks slow. Maybe when he stops thinking and starts reacting we will see that speed. Maybe. But there's no reason to just assume Jackson will and hand him a starting job.

HOU-TEX
04-11-2011, 09:30 AM
KJ was horrible in the first half of the season but he wasn't as bad towards the end. He clearly showed improvement but the rest of the secondary was incompetent on a historic level so it everyone looked bad. KJ wasn't good but he wasn't as bad as Glover Quinn was. Hopefully Wade Phillips can turn things around for those 2 guys in a hurry.

This was because he wasn't in as many plays towards the end of the season. He was part of a rotation in the defensive backfield.

They all sucked and considering we had the worst defense in NFL history, I reckon we can call that a fact.

Mr teX
04-11-2011, 10:50 AM
I mean he was a rookie so i really didn't expect much b/c i knew our safeties were trash & wouldn't help him out too much. In fact i expected pretty much what i saw. He would struggle with the speed of the game, get picked on while showing a few flashes here & there....but overall i thought he'd be bad...It was mainly based on him being a rook though.

This is the year where i expect to see who he will be as a player for his career- not b/c of new coaching (although that's sure to help him) but b/c he's got a year in the league under his belt. If he hasn't made a dramatic improvement after this year, he's likely not going to.

BigBull17
04-11-2011, 12:15 PM
While KJ certainly looked like a rookie out there and had his share of struggles, if you want to talk about bad, watch our safety play last year - it was basically non-existant. There were numerous times where it looked like we were in a cover 2 and there was no S help over the top or it was REEAALLY late getting there. I think a lot of fans blame the CBs on these plays when in reality the safeties were at fault.

Yeah, we should have just put two more linebackers. Wait they were bad too. Maybe two more DT's? No...We should have asked to be able to play 9 on D and 13 on O.

otisbean
04-11-2011, 12:29 PM
Yeah, we should have just put two more linebackers. Wait they were bad too. Maybe two more DT's? No...We should have asked to be able to play 9 on D and 13 on O.

I'm not sure I see the point of your quote... Are you trying to defense our S play?

IDEXAN
04-11-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm very appreciative for the remarks 76Texan has made over the past months about KJ, as he's given me some real hope about our young corner. Notice I didn't say he's convinced me we made a wise decision when we drafted KJ last year or anything like that, but 76Texan certainly seems to be a person who knows something about defensive backs and the game of football and therefor I'm looking forward to KJs second year with not just apprehension, but also some hope.

badboy
04-11-2011, 01:49 PM
KJ was horrible and got a bit better. He has size and speed IF he gets some decent coaching & can break him from playing "bump & run". He got better as he began to get a grasp of the NFL not because of his ability. He has to remain on his feet and & improve his recovery time. I posted before that what hurts KJ over other CBs selected first round was when KJ made an error or was out foxed by a vet WR, he mentally chastised himself, rather than immediately trying to recover. His straight speed allowed him to get close to the WR after an error & hopefully in his second year with a good DB coach, he can become a good #2.

DocBar
04-11-2011, 03:34 PM
KJ was horrible and got a bit better. He has size and speed IF he gets some decent coaching & can break him from playing "bump & run". He got better as he began to get a grasp of the NFL not because of his ability. He has to remain on his feet and & improve his recovery time. I posted before that what hurts KJ over other CBs selected first round was when KJ made an error or was out foxed by a vet WR, he mentally chastised himself, rather than immediately trying to recover. His straight speed allowed him to get close to the WR after an error & hopefully in his second year with a good DB coach, he can become a good #2.

Did you ever factor in the lack of pass rush? CB's are on an island, but not completely disconnected from the rest of the D. I'm not being a KJ homer, but it must be considered. We sucked at all levels of D last season. That was a total D team effort.

welsh texan
04-12-2011, 07:26 AM
I'd like to hear some opinions about some of the players that we've had down the years who seemed to have all the potential necessary to develop into really good players but never got there because of the positions the Texans put them in.

For instance David Carr, a player who might well have been a top 10 QB in this league but got hit that many times early on because the Texans never gave him a half decent O-line to protect him that by the time we got around to even trying to fix the line he was way beyond recovering.

How about someone like Okoye who was never given that big NT next door to give him the chance to develop into his potential.

Even some of our better players could have had far better careers to date given the right people around them, what could DeMeco have been as an OLB with a good MLB and great DL to protect him, Mario could have been so much more had he had the depth around him to take time out from his early injuries and recover rather than play hurt, and what AJ could have achieved had his earlier career not been marred by a worse-than-mediocre supporting cast.

Then we come to KJ, even if next season the Texans miraculously managed to put 2 great safeties and a fanctastic No.1 Corner opposite him, is there any coming back from being subjected to what he went through in his rookie season?

I mean, a rookie coming in and making mistakes is one thing, pretty much expected, but to have the weight of the franchise placed on your shoulders being asked to be the No.1 CB in your rookie season and then to have no help whatsoever around you, what are the chances that that wouldn't scar you mentally?

Put aside your doubts about coaching etc, what I'm getting at is the question of why the Texans seem to draft these people before they have the complimentary positions around that player locked down to give them the best possible chance to succeed.

They seem to draft for need, when you are rebuilding surely if your best season in 5 years is 9-7 you would have been better off going 100% BPA and seeing whats left as a need when you get a little closer.

GP
04-12-2011, 09:21 AM
I've read all the posts here.

Jason Allen was the best CB on our team last year. For whatever reason, we've had street free agents come onto the Texans secondary halfway through the past several seasons and actually OUTPERFORM the regular guys who had been there previously.

Seems to me that we have had a big problem with coaching. The street free agent guys who were not around to be ruined by Gary Kubiak's secondary coaches come aboard and look like normal NFL secondary players...then, they end up getting worse as time goes by and end up getting released. Notice that? I do.

Kareem Jackson has had one full year of bad coaching. Who knows if that's gonna' be too much for him to overcome. It's possible. These guys on our secondary are likely not the best "fit" for us, and maybe not even for the NFL at all--Which begs the question of who is making those draft day decisions when it comes to drafting secondary players??? Possibly Rick Smith, since he was a secondary player and secondary coach in college...AND was with the Broncos before coming here.

It's possible that we have misidentified secondary players (poor draft choices) AND those poor players have had poor coaching. It's possible that we have a dynamic duo of suckdom when it comes to our secondary woes.

It's possible that Wade Phillips is THE best C-O-A-C-H and talent evaluator/manager we've ever had. Let that sink in for a minute or two.

steelbtexan
04-12-2011, 09:32 AM
I've read all the posts here.

Jason Allen was the best CB on our team last year. For whatever reason, we've had street free agents come onto the Texans secondary halfway through the past several seasons and actually OUTPERFORM the regular guys who had been there previously.

Seems to me that we have had a big problem with coaching. The street free agent guys who were not around to be ruined by Gary Kubiak's secondary coaches come aboard and look like normal NFL secondary players...then, they end up getting worse as time goes by and end up getting released. Notice that? I do.

Kareem Jackson has had one full year of bad coaching. Who knows if that's gonna' be too much for him to overcome. It's possible. These guys on our secondary are likely not the best "fit" for us, and maybe not even for the NFL at all--Which begs the question of who is making those draft day decisions when it comes to drafting secondary players??? Possibly Rick Smith, since he was a secondary player and secondary coach in college...AND was with the Broncos before coming here.

It's possible that we have misidentified secondary players (poor draft choices) AND those poor players have had poor coaching. It's possible that we have a dynamic duo of suckdom when it comes to our secondary woes.

It's possible that Wade Phillips is THE best C-O-A-C-H and talent evaluator/manager we've ever had. Let that sink in for a minute or two.

Debbie Downer, LOL

And yes the thing about Phillips is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad/scary.

CloakNNNdagger
04-12-2011, 01:26 PM
It's interesting to read about the draft decision for Jackson, written at a time just before last year's draft.

Keep in mind that the NFL Draft Advisory Board (which ranks probable rounds a player will be taken in the draft) has a contemporary reputation of being quite accurate.

Alabama linebacker Rolando McClain declared a year early for the NFL draft at a podium during a press conference that included kind words from an approving Nick Saban.

When cornerback Kareem Jackson did the same thing days later, there was no formal press conference or comment from Saban.

In previous days, Alabama's coach had advised Jackson to return for his senior year. Really, Saban wasn't alone. Jackson's grade from the NFL's draft advisory committee was that he would not be taken higher than the second round.

A strong performance at the NFL scouting combine has put Kareem Jackson in a position to possibly be selected in Thursday night's first round of the NFL draft (AP photo)."A lot of people were telling me, 'You're not going to go here or there, best-case scenario is second round and depending on how you work out, you could drop more than that,'" Jackson said. "I just kind of took in what everybody was saying and worked out with a chip on my shoulder every day. I just went in there and was like, 'OK, I want to prove everybody wrong.' So that's what I did."

Months later, Jackson has established himself as one of the fastest-rising players in the 2010 NFL draft. ESPN analysts Mel Kiper Jr. and Todd McShay both project Jackson to be join McClain on Thursday night as a first-round selection.

In doing so, he's surprised many around Alabama's program.

"When he first decided to come out, everybody was kind of like, 'Oh man, we don't know if that's a good idea,'" former Crimson Tide linebacker Cory Reamer said of Jackson. "Coach Saban always says if you're not going to go in the first round or first 15 picks, you might as well stick around. ... I guess Kareem knew something that we didn't."

A three-year starter for Saban, Jackson had the pedigree to play at the next level. But the biggest concern dealt with his speed as a cornerback in the NFL.

So prior to the NFL scouting combine, Jackson went to West Palm Beach, Fla., where he trained alongside prospects like Tennessee's Eric Berry and Clemson speedster Jacoby Ford with Tony Villani's Extreme Performance Enhancement.

The result was an eye-opening 40-yard dash time of 4.48 seconds. It rated fifth among cornerbacks in Indianapolis and was only 0.03 second off the top time.

"My thing is, either you're fast or you're not," Jackson said. "I wasn't really sure why a lot of people questioned my speed. I've always been fast."

Jackson's stock soared instantly as a result of the combine performance.

"If there was a question about him as a player, it was probably, 'What's his flat speed?'" Saban said. "When he ran a good time, I think that probably made the decision he made a good decision. If he wouldn't have run a good time, it might have made it a bad one. There's always a little bit of risk in this. We still want guys to stay in school if they're not first-round draft picks. I still think that's a good rule-of-thumb."

Jackson has heard from dozens of NFL teams entering the draft. He's now viewed by many as the second-best cornerback on the board. Kiper has pointed to the Philadelphia Eagles at pick No. 24 or the New York Jets at pick No. 29, and it is possible Jackson could be selected higher than that.

"I was able to go to combine and kind of prove some people wrong," Jackson said. "Things have been looking real good lately. I've been getting a lot of positive feedback. I'm pretty confident that it will (be tonight), but if not, I'll still be happy with an early-Friday phone call."


His combine speed (whether it should have been or not) evidently was the big factor for him, although Saban didn't feel that he was ready as a "whole CB" and his subsequent NFL on-the-field speed is still quite suspect. But, of course, first rounder status was a blessing for him...........the Texans were there ready and waiting to throw flowers at his feet along with a couple of dollars.

Pretty interest read, now that we have seen his first year's NFL performance.http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2010/04/tides_draft_riser_kareem_jacks.html

GP
04-12-2011, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the read, Cloak. Really enjoyed it.

To me, he has poor "initital reaction" skills. When I watched him, it seemed like he was torn between staying with his man or dumping him off to someone else in a zone system or something. While this MIGHT point to it being the safety's fault, giving off the impression to Kareem that he's screwed either way, I wonder if Kareem dumping his man off to that next level was by design by the coaches: "Wilson/Pollard you gotta' watch out for Kareem, and if he dumps off his man, you gotta' go help him out...etc." As in: "This kid is raw, and somebody better watch out for him."

Just speculation, but it was very weird to watch Kareem stick with a man, then just flat out STOP 9usually right at the first down marker) and then he'd squat down on an area of the field where there was nobody there and just watch the QB. Then, Kareem's guy is five yards behind Kareem and the QB is lofting the pass in-between Kareem and our safety...just in time for the completion inside that little pocket of juiciness that burned us in so many games--If the team needed 10 yards, their WR caught it at the 15-yard mark and even made extra yards after that--We lost a HUGE chunk of yards in the Cowboys game on that sort of deal with Kareem and Eugene getting suckered.

This happened OFTEN, not once.

I don't care about Kareem's speed. Sometimes, slow is fast. I think he took a helluva; beating by poor coaching AND by virtue of being on a bad secondary AND by virtue of facing NFL talent. Triple whammy. The key thing is this: Was last year a lesson he has learned, or does he just cash that check this season and therefore fake it and merely pretend like he's trying to be a better player in year 2? I noticed he was really proud of how he got a "chip on his shoulder" and proved people wrong at the combine...congrats! Now, will you find that chip and strap it to your shoulder this summer please? And keep it there until you're worth the first round pick?

Mr teX
04-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the read, Cloak. Really enjoyed it.

To me, he has poor "initital reaction" skills. When I watched him, it seemed like he was torn between staying with his man or dumping him off to someone else in a zone system or something. While this MIGHT point to it being the safety's fault, giving off the impression to Kareem that he's screwed either way, I wonder if Kareem dumping his man off to that next level was by design by the coaches: "Wilson/Pollard you gotta' watch out for Kareem, and if he dumps off his man, you gotta' go help him out...etc." As in: "This kid is raw, and somebody better watch out for him."

Just speculation, but it was very weird to watch Kareem stick with a man, then just flat out STOP 9usually right at the first down marker) and then he'd squat down on an area of the field where there was nobody there and just watch the QB. Then, Kareem's guy is five yards behind Kareem and the QB is lofting the pass in-between Kareem and our safety...just in time for the completion inside that little pocket of juiciness that burned us in so many games--If the team needed 10 yards, their WR caught it at the 15-yard mark and even made extra yards after that--We lost a HUGE chunk of yards in the Cowboys game on that sort of deal with Kareem and Eugene getting suckered.

This happened OFTEN, not once.

I don't care about Kareem's speed. Sometimes, slow is fast. I think he took a helluva; beating by poor coaching AND by virtue of being on a bad secondary AND by virtue of facing NFL talent. Triple whammy. The key thing is this: Was last year a lesson he has learned, or does he just cash that check this season and therefore fake it and merely pretend like he's trying to be a better player in year 2? I noticed he was really proud of how he got a "chip on his shoulder" and proved people wrong at the combine...congrats! Now, will you find that chip and strap it to your shoulder this summer please? And keep it there until you're worth the first round pick?

Good Post.. basically alot of what you said was him going through rookie growing pains. Learning to trust your teammates. Learning how WR's try to set u up etc.

I'll tell you what i took out of the story though..the guy apparently has the confidence & he's a "lunch pail" player (i thought you'd like that lol..). I mean, if you've got teammates & even some of your coaches you've played for for 3 years saying you should come back b/c they don't think you're good enough to go in the 1st round...& you still go & not only impress but shoot up draft boards.......that takes nuts & hard work.....or tremendous stupidity.

Either way, it wasn't about the texans taking him, b/c based on where draft gurus had him, he was probably gonna go not long after where he was actually taken.

DocBar
04-12-2011, 04:52 PM
Good Post.. basically alot of what you said was him going through rookie growing pains. Learning to trust your teammates. Learning how WR's try to set u up etc.

I'll tell you what i took out of the story though..the guy apparently has the confidence & he's a "lunch pail" player (i thought you'd like that lol..). I mean, if you've got teammates & even some of your coaches you've played for for 3 years saying you should come back b/c they don't think you're good enough to go in the 1st round...& you still go & not only impress but shoot up draft boards.......that takes nuts & hard work.....or tremendous stupidity.

Either way, it wasn't about the texans taking him, b/c based on where draft gurus had him, he was probably gonna go not long after where he was actually taken.I'm not sure that trusting his teammantes was a lesson learned last season. More likely, if you don't do it, noone will. The guy had a rough introduction to the NFL with the aded pressure of playing for a perennial loser with high expectations. With a couple of good games to boost his confidence and some longer cleats, he might end up as a good draft pick. Give him some time with good coaching.

76Texan
04-13-2011, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the read, Cloak. Really enjoyed it.

To me, he has poor "initital reaction" skills. When I watched him, it seemed like he was torn between staying with his man or dumping him off to someone else in a zone system or something. While this MIGHT point to it being the safety's fault, giving off the impression to Kareem that he's screwed either way, I wonder if Kareem dumping his man off to that next level was by design by the coaches: "Wilson/Pollard you gotta' watch out for Kareem, and if he dumps off his man, you gotta' go help him out...etc." As in: "This kid is raw, and somebody better watch out for him."

Just speculation, but it was very weird to watch Kareem stick with a man, then just flat out STOP 9usually right at the first down marker) and then he'd squat down on an area of the field where there was nobody there and just watch the QB. Then, Kareem's guy is five yards behind Kareem and the QB is lofting the pass in-between Kareem and our safety...just in time for the completion inside that little pocket of juiciness that burned us in so many games--If the team needed 10 yards, their WR caught it at the 15-yard mark and even made extra yards after that--We lost a HUGE chunk of yards in the Cowboys game on that sort of deal with Kareem and Eugene getting suckered.

This happened OFTEN, not once.

I don't care about Kareem's speed. Sometimes, slow is fast. I think he took a helluva; beating by poor coaching AND by virtue of being on a bad secondary AND by virtue of facing NFL talent. Triple whammy. The key thing is this: Was last year a lesson he has learned, or does he just cash that check this season and therefore fake it and merely pretend like he's trying to be a better player in year 2? I noticed he was really proud of how he got a "chip on his shoulder" and proved people wrong at the combine...congrats! Now, will you find that chip and strap it to your shoulder this summer please? And keep it there until you're worth the first round pick?

1. The Texans zone coverage is the traditional spot-dropping scheme, in which the defenders drop back to a specified landmark - for the typical underneath zone, a CB should drop about 12 yards deep; however, in the process, he also must read the QB to see whether he was in a 3-step, 5-step or 7-step drop.

There are certain rules which I do not know 100%.
(Like the closer to the end zone, it can change, or things can vary with downs and distances, etc.)

The dead spots between the underneath and deep defenders are common; that is why some refer to the defenders as covering air or grass (meaning they didn't cover anybody.)

2. Jackson and Sharpton came from a different background in coverage as the Alabama Tides and Miami Hurricanes employ what they call "pattern-matching" coverage (when they are not in man coverage, of course.)

The rules in this scheme are different and conflict with the spot-dropping scheme at times. For a couple of rookies, obviously, it takes some time to adjust. And then under Wade, the Texans will switch to pattern-matching (unless Wade decides to do things differently; I doubt it though.) Switching from spot-drop to pattern-matching is easier; this scheme is close to man coverage; it's like man-help, or switchin-man coverage in basketball.

There are several good reads on the internet.
One of them can be found here:

http://runcodhit.blogspot.com/2010/03/pattern-reading-vs-spot-dropping.html

3. Jason Allen was the #16 pick in 2006 for the Dolphins; he is no run-of-the-mill street free agent.

4. The story that CNNND provided, I had posted last year (thanks anyway, CND).

5. I had Jackson rated late first, early second round - along with McCourty.
I had Kyle Wilson as a second rounder.

EllisUnit
04-14-2011, 06:41 PM
76Texan we understand u like jackson. the fact of the matter is he was TERRIBLE last season, now u can hope he gets better, but its kinda like in life a first impression means alot and i hate to say KJ didn't leave a very good one, SO until he proves that he can cover someone without giving up 2 TDs a game people will doubt him, me DEFINITELY included,,,and people will continue to doubt and down him. We have no reason not to.

thunderkyss
04-16-2011, 08:18 AM
76Texan we understand u like jackson. the fact of the matter is he was TERRIBLE last season, now u can hope he gets better, but its kinda like in life a first impression means alot and i hate to say KJ didn't leave a very good one, SO until he proves that he can cover someone without giving up 2 TDs a game people will doubt him, me DEFINITELY included,,,and people will continue to doubt and down him. We have no reason not to.

I don't believe Jackson was TERRIBLE last year.

I do understand he was in a no win situation from the day Rick Smith called his name. He was not the guy the "fans" wanted the Texans to pick-up. Of the list of CBs in that draft, he was pretty far down the list, if he was on the list at all.

Then he was put on a neutered defense (not the one we saw in 2009) with no chance of succeeding. Can anyone name anyone on that defense that performed like a tier 1 NFL football player? Anyone?

Then some how, some way our coaches managed to lose every single big game (okay, all but one) no matter how "in the game" they were in.

So when I see the negativity surrounding Kareem.... & I know he wasn't perfect, I know he's got some issues, I know he isn't as physically gifted as the other corners that were available in that draft, at that spot.... but when I see that negativity on Kareem, I know people are piling their frustrations on the kid.

Doesn't make sense to argue. It's a problem with the Texans, not Kareem. The Texans start winning, he'll be judged on his own merit. If he can play, you won't have to defend him.

DocBar
04-16-2011, 08:54 AM
The kid was a rookie on a terrible defense. I'll give him the customary 3 years before I put a label on him. Unless he turns into a pro bowler next season.
:fans:

76Texan
04-16-2011, 03:17 PM
76Texan we understand u like jackson. the fact of the matter is he was TERRIBLE last season, now u can hope he gets better, but its kinda like in life a first impression means alot and i hate to say KJ didn't leave a very good one, SO until he proves that he can cover someone without giving up 2 TDs a game people will doubt him, me DEFINITELY included,,,and people will continue to doubt and down him. We have no reason not to.

I understand the frustration during the season, but a few months afterward, it's time to evaluate the guys that you have without the hater glasses on.
If you know me on this board, I don't defend bad players.
I will always defend players who were making into a scapegoat by others though.
It will be the last time I respond to you if you keep insisting to charge Jackson on the second TD in the Chargers game.

If a college safety (DeAndre McDaniel) can defend that 2-receiver pattern by coming over to cut off the deep route and then (and only then) did he step up on the slant route to intercept the ball, a FS in the pro should at least be able to defend the deep route (which was Wilson's his number one assignment to begin with) and not jump the gun like he (Wilson) did - and gave up the TD in the process.

If you want your team to play 10 against 11, it's your choice, just don't expect 10 guys to be able to defend 11 on offense.
It's something the Texans did even when they have 11 guys on the field.

And there were times when they actually had only 10 guys on the field.
An example follows:

(Originally) I wanted to wait until I have time to get to the Redskins game, to ask people if they can find the FS anywhere on the field on this play.

Washington Redskins at 14:56 in the second quarter
4-N.Rackers kicks 68 yards from HST 30 to WAS 2. 11-D.Thomas to WAS 27 for 25 yards (72-J.Nading).
1-10-WAS 27 (14:50) 5-D.McNabb pass deep middle to 84-J.Galloway to HST 11 for 62 yards (25-K.Jackson).

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091900/2010/REG2/texans@redskins#tab:watch

Freeze the play at the start and think of a place where the FS might be.
Think about what a FS might do on this play if there was a FS lining up where such a defense would call for.
The Texans played with 10 men on the field.

Pointers: The Redskins were in offset-I right (FB to the right), Te left, 2 receivers on the right.
Look at where pollard was (9 yards off the LOS outside the right hashmarks.)
If there was a FS, where would he line up?

EllisUnit
04-16-2011, 05:16 PM
I understand the frustration during the season, but a few months afterward, it's time to evaluate the guys that you have without the hater glasses on.
If you know me on this board, I don't defend bad players.
I will always defend players who were making into a scapegoat by others though.
It will be the last time I respond to you if you keep insisting to charge Jackson on the second TD in the Chargers game.

If a college safety (DeAndre McDaniel) can defend that 2-receiver pattern by coming over to cut off the deep route and then (and only then) did he step up on the slant route to intercept the ball, a FS in the pro should at least be able to defend the deep route (which was Wilson's his number one assignment to begin with) and not jump the gun like he (Wilson) did - and gave up the TD in the process.

If you want your team to play 10 against 11, it's your choice, just don't expect 10 guys to be able to defend 11 on offense.
It's something the Texans did even when they have 11 guys on the field.

And there were times when they actually had only 10 guys on the field.
An example follows:

(Originally) I wanted to wait until I have time to get to the Redskins game, to ask people if they can find the FS anywhere on the field on this play.

Washington Redskins at 14:56 in the second quarter
4-N.Rackers kicks 68 yards from HST 30 to WAS 2. 11-D.Thomas to WAS 27 for 25 yards (72-J.Nading).
1-10-WAS 27 (14:50) 5-D.McNabb pass deep middle to 84-J.Galloway to HST 11 for 62 yards (25-K.Jackson).

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091900/2010/REG2/texans@redskins#tab:watch

Freeze the play at the start and think of a place where the FS might be.
Think about what a FS might do on this play if there was a FS lining up where such a defense would call for.
The Texans played with 10 men on the field.

Pointers: The Redskins were in offset-I right (FB to the right), Te left, 2 receivers on the right.
Look at where pollard was (9 yards off the LOS outside the right hashmarks.)
If there was a FS, where would he line up?

hmm u must be talking to someone else about referring to the chargers game, that is all fine and dandy about jackson, but what stats dont show is how many times he was 5 yards behind his MAN chasing behind him, last defensive play of the season is a perfect example, if not for nolan Jackson gives up another TD. Now i'm sure u remember that play where he was beaten very easily and nolan saved him/us. Yeah better safties would be nice BUT we shouldnt have to count on someone else to fix what jackson always messes up.

Playoffs
04-16-2011, 05:19 PM
Only a mo ...Wait a minute ... did you just call him a "mo"?http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/thumb_smileyvault-lol.gif

...I am telling you that at times I just want to jump up and choke Frank Bush into oblivion even as I am a very peaceful and calm individual...
Totally agree. We were woefully under-coached & out-called with Bush. Surprisingly bad hire.

I understand the frustration during the season, but a few months afterward, it's time to evaluate the guys that you have without the hater glasses on.

If you know me on this board, I don't defend bad players.
Have always appreciated your insights here, and will put on a new pair of glasses regarding KJ and his help. IMO, a good DC makes the biggest difference in the NFL -- so I've been more about getting better coaching/calls there than the favorite fan pastime of blaming individual players.

KJ will never have his own "island", I don't think, but he's no throwaway by any stretch.

EllisUnit
04-16-2011, 07:07 PM
I don't believe Jackson was TERRIBLE last year.

I do understand he was in a no win situation from the day Rick Smith called his name. He was not the guy the "fans" wanted the Texans to pick-up. Of the list of CBs in that draft, he was pretty far down the list, if he was on the list at all.

Then he was put on a neutered defense (not the one we saw in 2009) with no chance of succeeding. Can anyone name anyone on that defense that performed like a tier 1 NFL football player? Anyone?

Then some how, some way our coaches managed to lose every single big game (okay, all but one) no matter how "in the game" they were in.

So when I see the negativity surrounding Kareem.... & I know he wasn't perfect, I know he's got some issues, I know he isn't as physically gifted as the other corners that were available in that draft, at that spot.... but when I see that negativity on Kareem, I know people are piling their frustrations on the kid.

Doesn't make sense to argue. It's a problem with the Texans, not Kareem. The Texans start winning, he'll be judged on his own merit. If he can play, you won't have to defend him.

Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.

JB
04-16-2011, 08:08 PM
Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.


Bah!


There were a few more changes that you apparently aren't considering.

76Texan
04-16-2011, 10:31 PM
Wait a minute ... did you just call him a "mo"?http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/thumb_smileyvault-lol.gif


Totally agree. We were woefully under-coached & out-called with Bush. Surprisingly bad hire.


Have always appreciated your insights here, and will put on a new pair of glasses regarding KJ and his help. IMO, a good DC makes the biggest difference in the NFL -- so I've been more about getting better coaching/calls there than the favorite fan pastime of blaming individual players.

KJ will never have his own "island", I don't think, but he's no throwaway by any stretch.

Well, I am glad that you have an open mind, just like a few other board members who are willing to look deeper into the nuances of the game.

I love this game because of its intricacy.
Like a great coach (I think it was Bill Walsh) once said, "football is the real thinking-man game").
Many players have admitted that they are just pawns, one of the younger ones was Arian Foster even when he still was in college (he simply hopes the coaches put him in the right situation.) That understanding has carried him a long way.

76Texan
04-16-2011, 10:56 PM
hmm u must be talking to someone else about referring to the chargers game, that is all fine and dandy about jackson, but what stats dont show is how many times he was 5 yards behind his MAN chasing behind him, last defensive play of the season is a perfect example, if not for nolan Jackson gives up another TD. Now i'm sure u remember that play where he was beaten very easily and nolan saved him/us. Yeah better safties would be nice BUT we shouldnt have to count on someone else to fix what jackson always messes up.

But that is how you're supposed to play in this tampa 2 zone scheme.
The Jaguars was in single back spread with 2 receivers on each side.
Go back and watch it carefully.

The Texans had two deep safeties with Cushing dropping back almost to safety level (how deep his drop depends on how the 2 inside receivers run their routes).

The SAM (I think it was Adibi) made sure to funnel the receiver to the outside (toward the numbers on the field and Nolan) before he settled about 12 yds away from the LOS in his zone to watch for the RB out of the backfield.

Jackson made sure not to allow the receiver a free outside release by engaging in a hand fight with him within the 5-yd chuck rule.
He then trailed the receiver while keeping an eye on the QB in order to play the underneath routes.

As Jackson and Adibi did their jobs, the safety's job (Nolan's) was made simpler. They reduce the width of the field that Nolan had to contend with.

(Also, any in-route by the inside receiver would be defended by Cushing.)

Now the ball was thrown 26yds downfield, which is the deep zone that is the responsibility of the safety. The inside receiver stopped just beyond ten yards from the LOS (where a catch can give them a first down).
Nolan's job was simple because he can get in good position (where he was supposed to be, which is somewhere around the numbers), see the path of the receiver, and rob the QB's eyes, and break on the ball.
He did that and got an INT when the QB decided not to throw the ball away to live another down. (It was moot point anyway; he just wanted to go home, LOL!)

It is simply not right (if not ridiculous) to try to paint Jackson as playing poor ball, especially when stating that Jackson was beat by 5 yds.
No, his cushion was less than 3 yards; and that is the perfect position for a CB who plays the trail technique.

76Texan
04-16-2011, 11:01 PM
Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.

D-Rob didn't play better in 09 than Jackson in 2010.
He got beat quite a few times for TD; he grab receivers a few other times when he got beat, taking a PI call rather than allowing TDs (which is smart).
In one-on-one situations overall, Jackson got beat fewer times than D-Rob.
In help defense (on other receivers who were not their primary responsibility), they both played well.
In run support, Jackson was a better tackler.

And Jackson was a rookie while D-Rob was the "ten-million dollar but I want more pay-me-rick" guy.

EllisUnit
04-17-2011, 08:11 AM
D-Rob didn't play better in 09 than Jackson in 2010.
He got beat quite a few times for TD; he grab receivers a few other times when he got beat, taking a PI call rather than allowing TDs (which is smart).
In one-on-one situations overall, Jackson got beat fewer times than D-Rob.
In help defense (on other receivers who were not their primary responsibility), they both played well.
In run support, Jackson was a better tackler.

And Jackson was a rookie while D-Rob was the "ten-million dollar but I want more pay-me-rick" guy.

well our pass d sure did take a BIG drop when he and J. Reeves left, WHY would u release our only vet CB and keep a bunch of 5-7th rounder guys ?!?!?!? i didnt think about Reeves as well as D-Rob leaving, but reeves didnt play much, it was mainly D-Rob and Quinn and we had a Descent Pass Defense, then u take D-Rob out and its Quinn and Jackson and we set NFL recoreds for worst passing D.


And JB tell me all the changes that we had in the starting line up from 09-10 cause i only see when BC was oout on suspension, Then he came back D-Ryans went out, and last 2 games Mario was out. Thats the only changes to the starting D that i see.

JB
04-17-2011, 10:35 AM
well our pass d sure did take a BIG drop when he and J. Reeves left, WHY would u release our only vet CB and keep a bunch of 5-7th rounder guys ?!?!?!? i didnt think about Reeves as well as D-Rob leaving, but reeves didnt play much, it was mainly D-Rob and Quinn and we had a Descent Pass Defense, then u take D-Rob out and its Quinn and Jackson and we set NFL recoreds for worst passing D.


And JB tell me all the changes that we had in the starting line up from 09-10 cause i only see when BC was oout on suspension, Then he came back D-Ryans went out, and last 2 games Mario was out. Thats the only changes to the starting D that i see.

I think that Demeco being out was a pretty huge factor. Plus Pollard was exposed and Wilson declined even further.

I just think to put it all on KJ is absurd

thunderkyss
04-17-2011, 11:05 AM
Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.

That was one of the primary personel changes. There were a lot of other changes.

I think the primary, is that the Texans started to play prevent Defense more often than not & they looked like they had in 2008-2007-2006. In 2009, they looked like a real NFL defense, pressing the issue, making the opposing offense make quick/bad decisions.

We played downhill in 2009, in the backfield. in 2010, we looked like the 30th rank defense Dunta Robinson was on (& Kareem wasn't) in 2008, 2007, 2006.

76Texan
04-17-2011, 11:16 AM
well our pass d sure did take a BIG drop when he and J. Reeves left, WHY would u release our only vet CB and keep a bunch of 5-7th rounder guys ?!?!?!? i didnt think about Reeves as well as D-Rob leaving, but reeves didnt play much, it was mainly D-Rob and Quinn and we had a Descent Pass Defense, then u take D-Rob out and its Quinn and Jackson and we set NFL recoreds for worst passing D.


And JB tell me all the changes that we had in the starting line up from 09-10 cause i only see when BC was oout on suspension, Then he came back D-Ryans went out, and last 2 games Mario was out. Thats the only changes to the starting D that i see.

It's a litlle of everything, including what JB and TK said.

Since you like stats, there are a few that you should consider:

In 09, our safeties combined for 7 Ints.
In 2010, Nolan had 3; none of the other safeties had any.
(I didn't tally the numbers for our LBs, but surely, people remember Cushing pulling in a few in 09).

In 09, through the first 8 games, we allowed the opponents's TEs to catch 30 passes.
In 2010, throughout the first 4 games, we allowed 39.
(That's 30% more in half the time.)
And the TEs are usually the responsibility of either the LBs or safeties.

And you add that up with Pollard's being exposed, Wilson declining play, Nolan's inconsistency and there's no need to go any further to see that the safety play was what dragged down the defense the most.

Lucky
04-17-2011, 11:31 AM
And you add that up with Pollard's being exposed, Wilson declining play, Nolan's inconsistency and there's no need to go any further to see that the safety play was what dragged down the defense the most.
It could be just as easily stated that the safeties were stretched thin having to cover up sieves like Jackson & McCain.

This is just absurd. Who sucked harder? The safeties or the CBs? Answer: They all sucked! You need a perfect storm of suckitude to become the worst pass defense in the NFL over the past 5 seasons. Coaching, pass rush, pass coverage. Suck. Suck. Suck.

It's just ridiculous to continue to see apologies for Jackson. Much like the apoligies we saw for David Carr. Kareem Jackson sucked. Hopefully, he (and the players and coaching around him) gets better.

76Texan
04-17-2011, 11:45 AM
It could be just as easily stated that the safeties were stretched thin having to cover up sieves like Jackson & McCain.

This is just absurd. Who sucked harder? The safeties or the CBs? Answer: They all sucked! You need a perfect storm of suckitude to become the worst pass defense in the NFL over the past 5 seasons. Coaching, pass rush, pass coverage. Suck. Suck. Suck.

It's just ridiculous to continue to see apologies for Jackson. Much like the apoligies we saw for David Carr. Kareem Jackson sucked. Hopefully, he (and the players and coaching around him) gets better.

It's absolutely absurd to continue to defend guys that were let go by the new DC! :wadepalm:

I don't recall you putting much of the blame on the rest of the team except for a few passing moments.
You continually zero on in Kareem Jackson.
Now if you had consistently spread out the blames to the proportion each phase of the team is deserved, I wouldn't have any problem with it!

Lucky
04-17-2011, 12:17 PM
You continually zero on in Kareem Jackson.
It's only in reference to posts where you praise Kareem Jackson.

The Texans pass defense in 2010 was the worst since the 2005 49ers. Coincedentally, current Texans DB coach Vance Joseph was the assistant secondary coach of the Niners in '05.

EllisUnit
04-18-2011, 06:10 PM
It's absolutely absurd to continue to defend guys that were let go by the new DC! :wadepalm:

I don't recall you putting much of the blame on the rest of the team except for a few passing moments.
You continually zero on in Kareem Jackson.
Now if you had consistently spread out the blames to the proportion each phase of the team is deserved, I wouldn't have any problem with it!

i think lucky is right, i can turn around and say the sorry CB play made the safties worse this season as well. Safties had to worry about their job/assignment and our CBs failed assignments. Not to mention we brought Pollard in the BOX a lot so we cant seriously ALWAYS blame safties when they were defnding the run and it was man to man and KJac and Quinn got burned.

thunderkyss
04-18-2011, 07:36 PM
i think lucky is right, i can turn around and say the sorry CB play made the safties worse this season as well. Safties had to worry about their job/assignment and our CBs failed assignments. Not to mention we brought Pollard in the BOX a lot so we cant seriously ALWAYS blame safties when they were defnding the run and it was man to man and KJac and Quinn got burned.

I don't think it's about "always blaming the safeties."

But Kareem was a rookie & played like a rookie. Quin & McCain were second year players, and played like second year players.

Pollard & Eugene were our veteran safeties (i.e. safety net) & did not play like it. No one expected either of these guys to play like pro-bowlers.

I'm disappointed Kareem didn't have a rookie year like Demeco, or Cushing, or even Quin. I think we all are. But again, the book on KJac is just starting.

Pollard & Eugene played way below expectations (& like I said, we weren't expecting a lot). They should have at least been consistent. They were far from it. We should expect consistency as a minimum from our "Veteran Leaders."

76Texan
04-18-2011, 09:59 PM
i think lucky is right, i can turn around and say the sorry CB play made the safties worse this season as well. Safties had to worry about their job/assignment and our CBs failed assignments. Not to mention we brought Pollard in the BOX a lot so we cant seriously ALWAYS blame safties when they were defnding the run and it was man to man and KJac and Quinn got burned.

You ought to remember that I have made notes from time to time when I brought up a play, such as:

Quin just has to wacth the 2-vertical routes.
When both receivers on his side go long, he just has to run with his man.
You cannot expect your safety to take care of both.

So I understand that part.
Never once did I blame the safeties in those situations.

That said, I expect the safeties to carry out their assignment; I expect them to do what is their job.
And they failed miserably in many instances.
They made some plays, especially Pollard (and I had commended him even after the season.)

Before they released Pollard, I even said that I just wish that the light would come on in his head. If only he can be coached up. But I guess Wade think if the old dog can learn the trick by now, he'll never learn. Or maybe Pollard still think that he can make a lot more money than the Texans think he'll ever be worth.

The point remain, however, the safeties did not do their job.
For example, in the Indy game thread, I pointed out that Pollard gave up 2 TDs as a result (even though one instance might have involved Diles as well.)

76Texan
04-18-2011, 10:05 PM
You tell me what Pollard's job was supposed to be in the 2 TDs in the redzone (one to Wayne, the other to Clark)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091203/2010/REG1/colts@texans#tab:analyze

HTown2ATX
04-19-2011, 02:45 PM
Does anyone have a link to those shiner whiner line blogs? I didn't save any of them and now can't find them on the web. I especially like the Stephen Hawkings TD run.

The infamous "and Kareem Jackson will Fall Down" Whiner....

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/11/08/whiner-texans-play-by-play-on-defense/

Enjoy.

About 1:30 long. pretty short.

Also, to the point of the thread.....how many of the passes he let go were TD's? Probably a good amount...

Numbers are numbers...

Early in the year he blew hard..

Later in the year he leveled off a bit on the sucking.

EllisUnit
04-20-2011, 03:39 PM
You tell me what Pollard's job was supposed to be in the 2 TDs in the redzone (one to Wayne, the other to Clark)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091203/2010/REG1/colts@texans#tab:analyze

this whole thread is about jacksonso neither is relevant, i know the safties sucked. BUt watch the one to wayne, it was man with help over the top from the safties, how far back was quinn. And a lot of Jacksons looked way worse.

Texecutioner
04-20-2011, 04:32 PM
Good god people will spin things in here or look for any types of cherry picked stats to present a pretty picture out of total shit.

Jackson was awful and there is no way around that fact. He was put in a horrible position though by having to be the #1 CB on a terrible defense with a horrible pass rush and a really bad scheme. He was doomed from the start and that is the fault of the coaching staff. I don't think Jackson will be nearly as bad as he was last season and I still feel like he has some potential.

76Texan
04-21-2011, 11:42 AM
Good god people will spin things in here or look for any types of cherry picked stats to present a pretty picture out of total shit.


That's why I always said I don't believe in stats.
That's why I didn't care about what kind of numbers Leinart put up at USC.
One just has to watch the games and learn everything one can.

76Texan
04-21-2011, 11:49 AM
this whole thread is about jacksonso neither is relevant, i know the safties sucked. BUt watch the one to wayne, it was man with help over the top from the safties, how far back was quinn. And a lot of Jacksons looked way worse.

It is very relevant!

1. You said you've watched each Texans game about ten times and you still can't differentiate between a tampa 2 and a man-under coverage, how can you tell which defender did poorly?

2. That was #21 McCain (not Quin; Quin played nickel in this game, remember?), and the Texans were in tampa 2. Watch how Demeco dropped back into the deep middle before the ball was snapped. That's tampa 2, OK!

3. When you think that the CsB were in man coverage while they were in zone, that's how you see things incorrectly regarding Jackson (partially).

EllisUnit
04-21-2011, 01:25 PM
It is very relevant!

1. You said you've watched each Texans game about ten times and you still can't differentiate between a tampa 2 and a man-under coverage, how can you tell which defender did poorly?

2. That was #21 McCain (not Quin; Quin played nickel in this game, remember?), and the Texans were in tampa 2. Watch how Demeco dropped back into the deep middle before the ball was snapped. That's tampa 2, OK!

3. When you think that the CsB were in man coverage while they were in zone, that's how you see things incorrectly regarding Jackson (partially).

jackson wasnt on any of the plays you showed, and i am telling u the CBs were playing man and the safties were help/zone over the top. and u must not know that we can have 1 CB in man with the other 2 in zone while both safties are in man, not everyone is in zone, hell more often than not LBs/safties are in zone and CBs are in man. Dont talk to me about schemes i know defensive schemes. You are just doing everything you can to make Jackson look better, how about you post his 20+ BAd plays instead of a few that dont even show him.

b0ng
04-21-2011, 01:37 PM
Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.

D-rob leaving was not the only thing that "changed" on defense last year.

1.) Barwin hurt in game 1 sucked.
2.) BC being out until game 4 sucked.
3.) We rotated safeties this year it was so bad. We say Troy Nolan come in because at least we didn't know if he was going to be as bad as Wilson had already been. And he was terrible too!
4.) Demeco going down and having to play shuffleupagus with the LB corps (And Diles regressing quite a bit causing him to be moved in and out of the rotation).
5.) Was this David Gibbs first year as DB coach or second? I can't remember now.

The fact is, if you are pointing to Drob leaving as the one true reason why the defense deflated then I don't know what to tell you cause he was not all that great in ATL either.

EllisUnit
04-21-2011, 01:40 PM
D-rob leaving was not the only thing that "changed" on defense last year.

what else ???

EllisUnit
04-21-2011, 01:50 PM
D-rob leaving was not the only thing that "changed" on defense last year.

1.) Barwin hurt in game 1 sucked.
2.) BC being out until game 4 sucked.
3.) We rotated safeties this year it was so bad. We say Troy Nolan come in because at least we didn't know if he was going to be as bad as Wilson had already been. And he was terrible too!
4.) Demeco going down and having to play shuffleupagus with the LB corps (And Diles regressing quite a bit causing him to be moved in and out of the rotation).
5.) Was this David Gibbs first year as DB coach or second? I can't remember now.

The fact is, if you are pointing to Drob leaving as the one true reason why the defense deflated then I don't know what to tell you cause he was not all that great in ATL either.

Barwin didnt play MUCH in 2009.
Yeah but was he any better when he returned, which he did
YES but nolan and pollard were starters in 2009 and were in 2010
i mentioned Ryans going out, but not the problem for all of our secondary.
i think second.

I said changes not many changes except d-rob and ryans. we got worse when cushing came back. so 2 changes.

OrdinaryAvgGuy
04-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Ok...

badboy
04-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Did you ever factor in the lack of pass rush? CB's are on an island, but not completely disconnected from the rest of the D. I'm not being a KJ homer, but it must be considered. We sucked at all levels of D last season. That was a total D team effort.When evaluating any player, I consider all factors. A CB selected as high as KJ was still should have had much better year. My focus on evaluating him is on his body movements (back pedals, laterals,etc) maturity (not getting faked out of your socks repeatedly) and the way he played the opponent. Sure the Dline rush could have been better but KJ needed a strong hand at his position coach & did not get it. We will see how he benefits this year & as I said I hope the improvement will be immense.

badboy
04-21-2011, 02:34 PM
It's interesting to read about the draft decision for Jackson, written at a time just before last year's draft.

Keep in mind that the NFL Draft Advisory Board (which ranks probable rounds a player will be taken in the draft) has a contemporary reputation of being quite accurate.




His combine speed (whether it should have been or not) evidently was the big factor for him, although Saban didn't feel that he was ready as a "whole CB" and his subsequent NFL on-the-field speed is still quite suspect. But, of course, first rounder status was a blessing for him...........the Texans were there ready and waiting to throw flowers at his feet along with a couple of dollars.

Pretty interest read, now that we have seen his first year's NFL performance.http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2010/04/tides_draft_riser_kareem_jacks.htmlExactly, Cloak and why I thought we should not have drafted him. His combine is what moved him up and Kubes thought the CB coach would work KJ into shape as season progressed. Did not happen. KJ should have listened to his coach and remained in school. Worked for him monetarily but could have destroyed his confidence.

badboy
04-21-2011, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the read, Cloak. Really enjoyed it.

To me, he has poor "initital reaction" skills. When I watched him, it seemed like he was torn between staying with his man or dumping him off to someone else in a zone system or something. While this MIGHT point to it being the safety's fault, giving off the impression to Kareem that he's screwed either way, I wonder if Kareem dumping his man off to that next level was by design by the coaches: "Wilson/Pollard you gotta' watch out for Kareem, and if he dumps off his man, you gotta' go help him out...etc." As in: "This kid is raw, and somebody better watch out for him."

Just speculation, but it was very weird to watch Kareem stick with a man, then just flat out STOP 9usually right at the first down marker) and then he'd squat down on an area of the field where there was nobody there and just watch the QB. Then, Kareem's guy is five yards behind Kareem and the QB is lofting the pass in-between Kareem and our safety...just in time for the completion inside that little pocket of juiciness that burned us in so many games--If the team needed 10 yards, their WR caught it at the 15-yard mark and even made extra yards after that--We lost a HUGE chunk of yards in the Cowboys game on that sort of deal with Kareem and Eugene getting suckered.

This happened OFTEN, not once.

I don't care about Kareem's speed. Sometimes, slow is fast. I think he took a helluva; beating by poor coaching AND by virtue of being on a bad secondary AND by virtue of facing NFL talent. Triple whammy. The key thing is this: Was last year a lesson he has learned, or does he just cash that check this season and therefore fake it and merely pretend like he's trying to be a better player in year 2? I noticed he was really proud of how he got a "chip on his shoulder" and proved people wrong at the combine...congrats! Now, will you find that chip and strap it to your shoulder this summer please? And keep it there until you're worth the first round pick?Excellent post! Great eval.

badboy
04-21-2011, 02:39 PM
Think about it what was different about our 2009-2010 defense ??? 1 thing take away D-Rob and put in K. Jackson. And we went from not to bad in 09 to WOW terrible in 10, and the only change we had was making KJac start in D-Robs place. So say what u must but it seems to me like that is enough to show how terrible he was.Disagree as I think the loss of Demeco Ryan was the key. He was the leader of Defense and that hurt Cush. The loss of Cushing for 4 games and then trying to play him out of position two more games played signifcant role also. Then the poor coaching decisions regarding safety help...

DocBar
04-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Disagree as I think the loss of Demeco Ryan was the key. He was the leader of Defense and that hurt Cush. The loss of Cushing for 4 games and then trying to play him out of position two more games played signifcant role also. Then the poor coaching decisions regarding safety help... Good points. IMHO, there's plenty of blame to spread around the compost heap that was our defense last season. KJ was a lot closer to the toilet bowl than the pro bowl, but he should be given 2 more years before we decide to toss him on the scrap pile of draft busts.

badboy
04-21-2011, 03:10 PM
Good points. IMHO, there's plenty of blame to spread around the compost heap that was our defense last season. KJ was a lot closer to the toilet bowl than the pro bowl, but he should be given 2 more years before we decide to toss him on the scrap pile of draft busts.
Yeah, I'm not ready to dump KJ but would move him to #2 Corner. However, I just don't see waiting 3 years for a first round pick (speaking of Texans situation only) to develop, see Okoye. IMO David Carr is the only first we should have allowed at least two seasons to develop.

b0ng
04-21-2011, 03:13 PM
Barwin didnt play MUCH in 2009.
Yeah but was he any better when he returned, which he did
YES but nolan and pollard were starters in 2009 and were in 2010
i mentioned Ryans going out, but not the problem for all of our secondary.
i think second.

I said changes not many changes except d-rob and ryans. we got worse when cushing came back. so 2 changes.

Regression is still a change whether you like it or not. The fact that the safety play was abjectly much much worse in 2010 than it was in 2009 is a significant change. The fact that Barwin was never able to even start showing where improvements might've been made in his game (The coaches thought he was improving as he was in on defensive snaps in Game 1 week 1) is a change. If you can't see how having a Pro Bowl caliber player like Ryans going out, would effect the secondary then I don't know what to tell you. The guy was the man in the middle, he had coverage and run stopping duties, and he was probably the best player on defense. Him going out was a change for the ENTIRE defense not just the LB corps. So yeah, at least 5 changes and you didn't even bother to mention any coaching changes (which I did mention) that may or may not have happened in which I am too lazy to look up right now. So yeah at least 6 changes.

DocBar
04-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Yeah, I'm not ready to dump KJ but would move him to #2 Corner. However, I just don't see waiting 3 years for a first round pick (speaking of Texans situation only) to develop, see Okoye. IMO David Carr is the only first we should have allowed at least two seasons to develop.3 years is a pretty normal waiting period for a draft pick to develop.
Unfortunately, the Texans don't have the depth to allow that to happen and need 1st rounders to start and make an impact NOW. Going from college to the pros is a huge step. In college, it's easier to get by on talent alone. The competition isn't as good. In the NFL, you play All-American talent every single week. You have to really work on your craft to hone the natural talent you have. Some guys have the competitive spirit to improve, some get their payday and are content to rely on talent alone until the organization finds a better player.

76Texan
04-21-2011, 09:28 PM
jackson wasnt on any of the plays you showed, and i am telling u the CBs were playing man and the safties were help/zone over the top. and u must not know that we can have 1 CB in man with the other 2 in zone while both safties are in man, not everyone is in zone, hell more often than not LBs/safties are in zone and CBs are in man. Dont talk to me about schemes i know defensive schemes. You are just doing everything you can to make Jackson look better, how about you post his 20+ BAd plays instead of a few that dont even show him.


1. On that play, did any defender run with a receiver?
NOOOOOO!!!!
Both CBs, the nickel back, and the LBs were dropping to to their landmarks.
Quin didn't even pay attention to either receiver on each side of him.
Neither did Cushing.
McCain was dropping into hiz zone in the flat while watching Wayne to defend: (a) a possible corner route by Wayne, and (b) a possible quick out route by the slot receiver.

2. Yes, there's such a thing called man-under with safety help over the top.
In this case, it wasn't the defense called.

3. Yes, defense can play zone on one side of the field and man on the other side.
In this case, it was not.

4. I brought up this play because (a) I just finished reviewing the Colts game in another thread; (b) you were saying that poor CB play can hurt a safety.
In this case, it was poor safety play while you keep insisting on the CB (McCain) was supposed to be playing man coverage.

5. I had brought up at least 5 plays in which Jackson was made to look bad either by poor safety play (the TD to R. Williams in which Wilson had only one receiver to back up and he was in great position to do so, but failed; the TD in the Chargers game where Wilson stepped down on the slant route instead of staying back) or the abscence of a safety (Texans played with 10 men on the long pass to Galloway in the Skins game); or a penalty that should have been called (the 45 yd pass to Steve Smith in the Giants game in which Smith ran upfield way pass the 5yd limit and put a hand on Jackson helmet to push him away to get separation).
There are more, which I intend to bring up when I review the other games.
I wanted to concentrated on the draft first, that's why I haven't been on it.
(I've already said that several times.)

If you have time, why don't you bring up all the 20+ bad plays that you claimed Jackson was in and I will have a rebuttal.
I always do when somebody brings something up.

76Texan
04-21-2011, 09:39 PM
Barwin didnt play MUCH in 2009.
Yeah but was he any better when he returned, which he did
YES but nolan and pollard were starters in 2009 and were in 2010
i mentioned Ryans going out, but not the problem for all of our secondary.
i think second.

I said changes not many changes except d-rob and ryans. we got worse when cushing came back. so 2 changes.

1. Barwin played well in the rotation in 09.
He played only a few snaps in the first game in 2010 when he got hurt.
He pulled on Manning's arm on one play and forced a bad throw; Pollard caught the ball out of bound.

2, Nolan didn't play last year (he was on IR), but it doesn't matter.

76Texan
04-21-2011, 09:46 PM
Excellent post! Great eval.

More reads on spot dropping and pattern matching/man matching can be found here:

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2010/2/9/1209031/rufios-playbook-pattern-matching

http://brophyfootball.blogspot.com/2010/09/match-zone-or-match-man-alternative.html

IDEXAN
05-09-2011, 08:02 AM
"You want corners who want to compete," Phillips said. "We didn't just look at (tape of) games. We looked at practice, too. He's got competitiveness, and he's got quickness. (But) I'm worried about his (deep) speed."

Jackson was beaten down the field too often. Some scouts who watched the Texans said Jackson allowed yards down the field because of his technique and the situations in which he was placed.

"As long as he competes and plays good technique, that'll help him a lot," Phillips said.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7556174.html
&&&&&

There you have it. Again. But this time from new Texans DC and perhaps the next Texans HC, Wade Phillips. Kareem is lame when it comes to his long-speed. And there is absolutely nothing Phillips can do about that, nothing
anybody can do to fix it, make it right. And that's the problem.

CloakNNNdagger
05-09-2011, 08:29 AM
"You want corners who want to compete," Phillips said. "We didn't just look at (tape of) games. We looked at practice, too. He's got competitiveness, and he's got quickness. (But) I'm worried about his (deep) speed."

Jackson was beaten down the field too often. Some scouts who watched the Texans said Jackson allowed yards down the field because of his technique and the situations in which he was placed.

"As long as he competes and plays good technique, that'll help him a lot," Phillips said.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7556174.html
&&&&&

There you have it. Again. But this time from new Texans DC and perhaps the next Texans HC, Wade Phillips. Kareem is lame when it comes to his long-speed. And there is absolutely nothing Phillips can do about that, nothing
anybody can do to fix it, make it right. And that's the problem.

Many of us have verbalized that same concern.

Niether player (Jackson or Okoye) seem to be getting a stamp of approval from Wade.........and Okoye much less of a vote of confidence:

Okoye, the 10th overall pick in 2007, has been a four-year starter who has played the run well but hasn't provided the pass rush the Texans thought he would. Last season, he had a career-high 45 tackles. He had three sacks, seven tackles for loss and 11 hits on the quarterback for a defense that ranked 30th.

"I think he's got ability," Phillips said. "We've got to see if we can get him to channel it the right way. I didn't think he played well last season, but I think he can.."

The last time Phillips took over a defense as bad as the Texans' was 2004. San Diego was 31st in defense in 2003 when the Chargers finished 4-12. In Phillips' first season, they ranked 11th in defense and finished 12-4.

In Phillips' scheme, linemen are one-gap players, meaning he wants them to get upfield rather than grab, hold and be responsible for two gaps like in a traditional 3-4.

"He hustles like crazy, but he doesn't penetrate the way you'd like him to," Phillips said of Okoye. "I'm going to give him a chance. He's quick like some guys I've had before at defensive end, but I don't know what he's going to do."

b0ng
05-09-2011, 08:39 AM
It's funny that Phillips comes in and identifies 2 first round picks of the Texans as having major flaws. That line he gave about Okoye sounds really damning.

DocBar
05-09-2011, 10:17 AM
It's funny that Phillips comes in and identifies 2 first round picks of the Texans as having major flaws. That line he gave about Okoye sounds really damning.

I don't think it's so much damning as it is honest. That's just fair warning to everyone on the D. Make plays or ride the pine.

76Texan
05-09-2011, 11:16 AM
According to STATS, Inc., Jackson was targeted 94 times and allowed 50 completions — a 53.2 completion percentage. He gave up four touchdown passes; five teammates gave up more. But Jackson was second in the league in yards allowed.


If you take away the 2 long TD passes from R. Williams (Cowboys - Illegal man downfield; O-lineman went past the LOS to block before the pass was thrown - and it was Wilson's poor play that allowed the TD to begin with) and Arijotutu (Chargers - Wilson came down on the slant route), Jackson allowed just 2 TDs the whole year.
I don't know what else you can expect from a rookie CB that was asked to play on an island as much.

Next you take away a few long passes like the one to Galloway (Redskins - Texans played with 10 men on the field; the FS (Wilson) was missing) and the one to Steve Smith (Giants - Smith pushed off Jackson on the helmet far beyond the 5-yd limit, and I don't think the WR is allowed to put a hand on the DB's head to push off to begin with).

That's a total of more than 200 yards and should change the numbers dramatically already.

76Texan
05-09-2011, 11:31 AM
"You want corners who want to compete," Phillips said. "We didn't just look at (tape of) games. We looked at practice, too. He's got competitiveness, and he's got quickness. (But) I'm worried about his (deep) speed."

"As long as he competes and plays good technique, that'll help him a lot," Phillips said.


Here Wade threw McClain a bone and admitted that Jackson doesn't have top speed.

But that is already known, If you take a CB that runs 4.48 and ask him to run with a WR that runs 4.32-4.38, who's going to win the track meet?

When the scouts talked about techniques and positions, a few things come to mind (when I have time, I will "try" to analyze the Cowboys game):

In that game, you can see that not just Jackson, but our other guys were hurt by the shuffle technique; their cushion was broken pretty quickly by the receiver.

The Cowboys played quite a bit of "off-man" coverage.
When they do get in press, the CB don't engage in a hand fight with our big receivers.

Similar with the speed problem, when you ask a smaller DB to do Mortal Kombat with big receivers, who's more likely to win on a more consistent basis?

The Cowboys would just turn and run with the receivers; if they get beat right off the bat, they would rather take the 5-yd penalty.

DocBar
05-10-2011, 04:30 AM
If you take away the 2 long TD passes from R. Williams (Cowboys - Illegal man downfield; O-lineman went past the LOS to block before the pass was thrown - and it was Wilson's poor play that allowed the TD to begin with) and Arijotutu (Chargers - Wilson came down on the slant route), Jackson allowed just 2 TDs the whole year.
I don't know what else you can expect from a rookie CB that was asked to play on an island as much.

Next you take away a few long passes like the one to Galloway (Redskins - Texans played with 10 men on the field; the FS (Wilson) was missing) and the one to Steve Smith (Giants - Smith pushed off Jackson on the helmet far beyond the 5-yd limit, and I don't think the WR is allowed to put a hand on the DB's head to push off to begin with).

That's a total of more than 200 yards and should change the numbers dramatically already.
It would be nice if you could just take those off, but they happened and they count. Those kinds of things tend to balance out over the course of the season. I wonder how many penalties KJ got away with. Having said that, I think he will be an improved player this season.Here Wade threw McClain a bone and admitted that Jackson doesn't have top speed.

But that is already known, If you take a CB that runs 4.48 and ask him to run with a WR that runs 4.32-4.38, who's going to win the track meet?

When the scouts talked about techniques and positions, a few things come to mind (when I have time, I will "try" to analyze the Cowboys game):

In that game, you can see that not just Jackson, but our other guys were hurt by the shuffle technique; their cushion was broken pretty quickly by the receiver.

The Cowboys played quite a bit of "off-man" coverage.
When they do get in press, the CB don't engage in a hand fight with our big receivers.

Similar with the speed problem, when you ask a smaller DB to do Mortal Kombat with big receivers, who's more likely to win on a more consistent basis?

The Cowboys would just turn and run with the receivers; if they get beat right off the bat, they would rather take the 5-yd penalty. If the pass rush could disrupt the QB's timing and/or make him uncomfortable in 3 seconds or less, deep speed really doesn't factor into the equation very often. The CB getting doing his job and jamming the receiver and/or altering the route takes some of the deep speed issue out of the equation, also. Size would be more of an issue with me. Big receivers have an incredible advantage over small/average CB's. That's what makes AJ., Fitzgerald, etc. such threats.

thunderkyss
05-10-2011, 02:19 PM
[COLOR="Red"]It would be nice if you could just take those off, but they happened and they count. Those kinds of things tend to balance out over the course of the season. I wonder how many penalties KJ got away with. Having said that, I think he will be an improved player this season.

I think that is 76Texan's point. KJ was a rookie & most people act as if he were an 8 year vet.

There were more good plays than not. If he had been on the Packers defense, he would have looked a lot better. He was part of the problem, no one is saying different. But he was put into a situation that magnified his short comings.

LB coach, gone. DB coach, gone. Both starting safeties...... gone. I think the Texans did a good job of finding the "real" issues on this defense & addressed them properly.

DocBar
05-11-2011, 05:41 AM
I think that is 76Texan's point. KJ was a rookie & most people act as if he were an 8 year vet.

There were more good plays than not. If he had been on the Packers defense, he would have looked a lot better. He was part of the problem, no one is saying different. But he was put into a situation that magnified his short comings.

LB coach, gone. DB coach, gone. Both starting safeties...... gone. I think the Texans did a good job of finding the "real" issues on this defense & addressed them properly.I think they took care of most glaring issues. We still need to see where Okoye is going to fit in, if at all, and a few others. I agree that it's a good start.

BigBull17
05-11-2011, 11:04 AM
I think that is 76Texan's point. KJ was a rookie & most people act as if he were an 8 year vet.

There were more good plays than not. If he had been on the Packers defense, he would have looked a lot better. He was part of the problem, no one is saying different. But he was put into a situation that magnified his short comings.

LB coach, gone. DB coach, gone. Both starting safeties...... gone. I think the Texans did a good job of finding the "real" issues on this defense & addressed them properly.

I agree KJ could still have a nice career, don't get me wrong. I just know that his lack of speed scare me a bit. I saw too many times where he just flat got run past.

gary
05-11-2011, 05:28 PM
I hope he does better and think he will with much more proven safeties as the last line of defense. If not, then the whole staff needs to be fired and I don't care if Wade just got here because our best players Shaub, Johnson, Ryans, Williams, ect. They are not getting any younger and next season should be playoffs or bust. That means winning games in AFC South to own tiebreakers and so on and not having to depend on any other team to lose I am ready now and I don't want to wait as long as the Saints did to reach their hopes and dreams.

DocBar
05-11-2011, 05:35 PM
I hope he does better and think he will with much more proven safeties as the last line of defense. If not, then the whole staff needs to be fired and I don't care if Wade just got here because our best players Shaub, Johnson, Ryans, Williams, ect. They are not getting any younger and next season should be playoffs or bust. That means winning games in AFC South to own tiebreakers and so on and not having to depend on any other team to lose I am ready now and I don't want to wait as long as the Saints did to reach their hopes and dreams.If Vegas has a line on KJ, bet on improvement. Hell, sould he have been any worse as a rookie? LOL

gary
05-11-2011, 05:41 PM
If Vegas has a line on KJ, bet on improvement. Hell, sould he have been any worse as a rookie? LOLI honestly have not given up on Kareem yet and think the problem lies with the coaching staff not helping him succeed JMO.

DocBar
05-12-2011, 03:44 AM
I honestly have not given up on Kareem yet and think the problem lies with the coaching staff not helping him succeed JMO.I agree with that. It's kind of absurd to call a rookie a bust. I'm a firm believer in the 3 year rule of thumb. Some guys are late bloomers.

thunderkyss
05-12-2011, 11:25 AM
In a thread started by EllisUnit, I stated that I have no idea how people like Football Outsiders tally their stats, and I do not believe in stats.
Well, here are some different numbers from houstontexans.com
You will have to ask Nick Scurfield where he got the numbers from.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/2010-season-in-review-Cornerback/da37ff73-c8f6-4768-9cd7-ce46435d34d5

Notable number: 53.2 – Completion percentage allowed by Jackson (50 of 94 passes) in 2010. It was the best rate among Texans cornerbacks, and better than the completion percentage allowed by rookie Pro Bowler Devin McCourty (54.5 percent) of the Patriots.

Key splits: Jackson’s 53.2 completion percentage rate also compares favorably to some of the league’s top cornerbacks in their first years as starters: Nnamdi Asomugha (46.3 in 2005), Champ Bailey (47.8 in 1999), Charles Woodson (49.0 in 1998) and Darrelle Revis (59.1 in 2007).

Jackson and Revis’ first-year starting lines are almost identical. Jackson allowed 50 completions on 94 attempts; Revis allowed 55 completions on 93 attempts. Jackson had with two interceptions; Revis had three. Both players had 10 passes defensed.



Notes: Asomugha was drafted in 03 but didn't become a full-time starter until 05.
He did not have a career interception until 2006; ie. the whole 2005 when he became a full-time starter, he did not have any INT.
That's 3 years with no INT for Aso.

I couldn't remember how this thread started, so I went back to the begining to see. 76Texan presented KJac's actual performance data in contrast to some of the better CBs in the league.

Despite his "lack of speed" KJac's rookie season fared comparably to those CBs first year. Which leads me to believe
1) those saying KJac is not a lost cause are more correct than those already calling him a bust.

2) those saying KJac would have performed much better on a better team are more correct than those who do not factor in the quality of the defense KJac was puton.

3) While I wouldn't say he played well in any phase of the game, he actually played well for a rookie thrown into the game from day 1.


It was not his fault he was thrown onto a defense where Eugene Wilson & Bernard Pollard were the last line of defense. It was not his fault that the line-backers coach did not understand, & therefore was unable to teach, pass coverage.

He was beat up & abused by savy NFL wide receivers. But he was a rookie.

IDEXAN
06-17-2011, 06:48 AM
Wade believes the Texans will be very good in the front seven but just doesn't know what he has in the secondary, where there are question marks all over the place, beginning with second-year cornerback Kareem Jackson.

"I think technique-wise he needs a lot of work," Phillips said. "I guess he was able to play at Alabama without a lot of technique without worrying about staying low enough or moving his feet, those kinds of things. I think that caught up with him. I think we can coach him. We'll drill him enough that we'll go over and over and over."
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/7614610.html#ixzz1PX5CQERO
***
Apparently Kareems skill-set as a CB were so lacking even in college that in this weeks story in the Houston Chronicle, new DC Wade phillips wonders how Kareem got by even at that level ? And we just gotta ask that question again: how did the Texans led by Smith-Kubiak think this guy was the most ready to step right in and be an NFL starter among corners coming out in the 2010 Draft ?

El Tejano
06-17-2011, 07:21 AM
Wade believes the Texans will be very good in the front seven but just doesn't know what he has in the secondary, where there are question marks all over the place, beginning with second-year cornerback Kareem Jackson.

"I think technique-wise he needs a lot of work," Phillips said. "I guess he was able to play at Alabama without a lot of technique without worrying about staying low enough or moving his feet, those kinds of things. I think that caught up with him. I think we can coach him. We'll drill him enough that we'll go over and over and over."
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/7614610.html#ixzz1PX5CQERO
***
Apparently Kareems skill-set as a CB were so lacking even in college that in this weeks story in the Houston Chronicle, new DC Wade phillips wonders how Kareem got by even at that level ? And we just gotta ask that question again: how did the Texans led by Smith-Kubiak think this guy was the most ready to step right in and be an NFL starter among corners coming out in the 2010 Draft ?

My thoughts exactly as I was reading that quote. I think this had more to do with Frank Bush and Smith. Frank Bush is the one who was talking him up.

76Texan
06-17-2011, 09:30 AM
Wade believes the Texans will be very good in the front seven but just doesn't know what he has in the secondary, where there are question marks all over the place, beginning with second-year cornerback Kareem Jackson.

"I think technique-wise he needs a lot of work," Phillips said. "I guess he was able to play at Alabama without a lot of technique without worrying about staying low enough or moving his feet, those kinds of things. I think that caught up with him. I think we can coach him. We'll drill him enough that we'll go over and over and over."
Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/7614610.html#ixzz1PX5CQERO
***
Apparently Kareems skill-set as a CB were so lacking even in college that in this weeks story in the Houston Chronicle, new DC Wade phillips wonders how Kareem got by even at that level ? And we just gotta ask that question again: how did the Texans led by Smith-Kubiak think this guy was the most ready to step right in and be an NFL starter among corners coming out in the 2010 Draft ?

This is Wade's making good use of the media to tell Jackson to continue honing his skills.

Like a point guard in basketball, no matter how good your ball-handling skill was in college, you still need to keep working on it to play against the best.

Look at it this way, Wade played LB at UH and started out as a LB coach.
Nick Saban played DB and started out as a DB coach. He still teaches his DBs (hand-on) at Alabama and is considered to be among the best.
He's not going to let his DB slide with poor technique.

I took a bunch of screen shot of one of Jackson's college game against LSU and the first game against Indy.
There's nothing alarming about Jackson's technique into and out of the stance (especially when you pit him against Prince Amukarama who played much higher out of his stance.)

That said, Jackson does need to work to improve on it. He's not quite consistent to the level we want to see from a #1 CB (which is normal for rookies.) When he doesn't want to show his stance early, he needs to work to get into quickly and with low pad level. He needs to work on keeping his body lean correctly out of his stance more consistently so he can control his balance better. He also needs to work on moving his feet just as he needs to work on hand placement, etc.
Just as any rookie (and even the veterans), Jackson needs to continue to improve his craft.

76Texan
06-17-2011, 09:34 AM
My thoughts exactly as I was reading that quote. I think this had more to do with Frank Bush and Smith. Frank Bush is the one who was talking him up.

What the Texans coaches did was taking time away from these young CBs by teaching them the shuffle technique and let them play with it early (day one). They could have used that time to practice the other techniques that they need.

Lucky
06-17-2011, 08:57 PM
This is Wade's making good use of the media to tell Jackson to continue honing his skills.
I think it was Wade telling Bob McNair to break out the checkbook, once this lockout is over.

"I think technique-wise he needs a lot of work." Not a little work. Not some work. A lot of work. This is after Wade had previously questioned Jackson's speed (on the field, not in shorts with a stopwatch). A slow, inexperienced corner with poor technique is not someone a team that wants to win needs to count on. I don't think Jackson will crack the top 3 spots on the CB depth chart, which should be a major FA signing, Jason Allen, and Brandon Harris at the nickel back.

76Texan
06-17-2011, 10:40 PM
I think it was Wade telling Bob McNair to break out the checkbook, once this lockout is over.

"I think technique-wise he needs a lot of work." Not a little work. Not some work. A lot of work. This is after Wade had previously questioned Jackson's speed (on the field, not in shorts with a stopwatch). A slow, inexperienced corner with poor technique is not someone a team that wants to win needs to count on. I don't think Jackson will crack the top 3 spots on the CB depth chart, which should be a major FA signing, Jason Allen, and Brandon Harris at the nickel back.



That's all fine and dandy!
As long as they put quality players out there, I will be happy.
If they start somebody over Jackson, I will be happy because it means the Texans will have excellent CBs.

On the other hand, Wade doesn't need the Chronicle or anybody else in the media to tell McNair what he needs!

IDEXAN
06-18-2011, 07:42 AM
As long as they put quality players out there, I will be happy. If they start somebody over Jackson, I will be happy because it means the Texans will have excellent CBs.

Was that resounding thud I just heard the bounce of a CB being thrown under the bus by one of his heretofore staunchest supporters on this Board ?

Rey
06-18-2011, 11:42 AM
That's all fine and dandy!
As long as they put quality players out there, I will be happy.
If they start somebody over Jackson, I will be happy because it means the Texans will have excellent CBs.

On the other hand, Wade doesn't need the Chronicle or anybody else in the media to tell McNair what he needs!

Agreed.

Jackson will be a starting corner on this team. He's telling Jackson what he needs to work on through the media.

Now he could get his spot taken at some point, but heading into camp he will be a starter. Who starts on the opposite side is up in the air.

I think it's highly unlikely that they sign aso and cromartie. But that is one of the few scenarios that I see Jackson not starting.

EllisUnit
06-18-2011, 08:12 PM
Agreed.

Jackson will be a starting corner on this team. He's telling Jackson what he needs to work on through the media.

Now he could get his spot taken at some point, but heading into camp he will be a starter. Who starts on the opposite side is up in the air.

I think it's highly unlikely that they sign aso and cromartie. But that is one of the few scenarios that I see Jackson not starting.

I dont think he should automatically go into camp as the starter. I think J. Allen who out performed all of our CBs last season has earned the shot to be a starter.

Some say Allen isnt good, funny you can say that but after the season Jackson had i dont see how you can make that argument.

76Texan
06-20-2011, 10:09 AM
Was that resounding thud I just heard the bounce of a CB being thrown under the bus by one of his heretofore staunchest supporters on this Board ?

As with my defending Chris Myers the year before, I say most players are replaceable. The thing is whether you can find an upgrade or not.

Before one wants to repalce Jackson; however, one might strongly consider replacing Jason Allen first.
You look at his 4-1/2 yr career at Miami and you see a DB that is going nowhere.

He was drafted in the first round (16th?) and was a reserve in 06.
In 07, a new DC came in and moved him to safety.
He started 9 games and the Dolphins went 1-15.
In 08 he started 2 games at nickel back the Dolphins rebounded to have a good season.
In 09, another DC came in and the Dolphins played 2 rookies at CBs (Vontae Davis and Sean Smith).

What about Allen?
Read this excerpt:

"...But five years into his NFL career, Allen has a different perspective on the role he has acquired — special teams ace. Allen, the former first-round pick who had 15 special teams tackles in 2009, was up to his old tricks in Saturday's exhibition victory over Jacksonville, forcing a fumble on the Dolphins' safety punt, which Tyrone Culver recovered on the Jaguars' 40.

Allen is competing with rookie Nolan Carroll to be the team's third cornerback while Will Allen recovers from a knee arthroscopy, but knows the best way he can get on the field is to excel on special teams.

"That's a good way to earn the coach's trust, by doing your job and knowing your role on special teams," Allen said. "You've just got to take it, and don't look at it as being something negative. Look at it as a positive."


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/dolphins/dolphins-notebook-cornerback-jason-allen-isnt-happy-with-874915.html

Did I read it right?
The third CB was recovering from surgery so they let Allen compete with a rookie for that spot?

At any rate, he started some games in 2010 and was released.

Three different DCs didn't see it in Allen.
It took the DC of "the worst defense and secondary" (I'm just repeating that term from those that have ben using it) to "discover" him!
I'm sorry but that sounds like a joke. :spit:

76Texan
06-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Agreed.

Jackson will be a starting corner on this team. He's telling Jackson what he needs to work on through the media.

Now he could get his spot taken at some point, but heading into camp he will be a starter. Who starts on the opposite side is up in the air.

I think it's highly unlikely that they sign aso and cromartie. But that is one of the few scenarios that I see Jackson not starting.

I'm not even saying that Jackson should be given a starting spot.
I believe that players should compete to earn their place.

If there's a season, would there be Free Agency before camp or what?
I don't follow this closely so I really don't know all the different scenarios.

76Texan
06-20-2011, 10:44 AM
As with my defending Chris Myers the year before, I say most players are replaceable. The thing is whether you can find an upgrade or not.

Before one wants to repalce Jackson; however, one might strongly consider replacing Jason Allen first.
You look at his 4-1/2 yr career at Miami and you see a DB that is going nowhere.

He was drafted in the first round (16th?) and was a reserve in 06.
In 07, a new DC came in and moved him to safety.
He started 9 games and the Dolphins went 1-15.
In 08 he started 2 games at nickel back the Dolphins rebounded to have a good season.
In 09, another DC came in and the Dolphins played 2 rookies at CBs (Vontae Davis and Sean Smith).

What about Allen?
Read this excerpt:

"...But five years into his NFL career, Allen has a different perspective on the role he has acquired — special teams ace. Allen, the former first-round pick who had 15 special teams tackles in 2009, was up to his old tricks in Saturday's exhibition victory over Jacksonville, forcing a fumble on the Dolphins' safety punt, which Tyrone Culver recovered on the Jaguars' 40.

Allen is competing with rookie Nolan Carroll to be the team's third cornerback while Will Allen recovers from a knee arthroscopy, but knows the best way he can get on the field is to excel on special teams.

"That's a good way to earn the coach's trust, by doing your job and knowing your role on special teams," Allen said. "You've just got to take it, and don't look at it as being something negative. Look at it as a positive."


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/dolphins/dolphins-notebook-cornerback-jason-allen-isnt-happy-with-874915.html

Did I read it right?
The third CB was recovering from surgery so they let Allen compete with a rookie for that spot?

At any rate, he started some games in 2010 and was released.

Three different DCs didn't see it in Allen.
It took the DC of "the worst defense and secondary" (I'm just repeating that term from those that have ben using it) to "discover" him!
I'm sorry but that sounds like a joke. :spit:

BTW, I quickly checked the Dolphins' line-up in Allen's rookie year (2006).
I only looked at the first and last two games.
He was listed as a back-up safety.
Looks like he was drafted to be groomed to play safety.
My guess is that he has speed but doesn't have the quickness/agility and the techqniues to be a good starting caliber CB in the NFL.

If you notice, Allen has no back-pedal.
He either plays the shuffle or turn and run with receivers.

EllisUnit
06-20-2011, 06:38 PM
BTW, I quickly checked the Dolphins' line-up in Allen's rookie year (2006).
I only looked at the first and last two games.
He was listed as a back-up safety.
Looks like he was drafted to be groomed to play safety.
My guess is that he has speed but doesn't have the quickness/agility and the techqniues to be a good starting caliber CB in the NFL.

If you notice, Allen has no back-pedal.
He either plays the shuffle or turn and run with receivers.

Am i hearing all this about Allen, and him having no Quickness and agility from the biggest jackson supporter ???? :spit:. Talk about irony. If i remember correctly Jackson was always the one in the rear view, after FALLING DOWN. WOW. Good stuff.

EllisUnit
06-20-2011, 06:42 PM
As with my defending Chris Myers the year before, I say most players are replaceable. The thing is whether you can find an upgrade or not.

Before one wants to repalce Jackson; however, one might strongly consider replacing Jason Allen first.
You look at his 4-1/2 yr career at Miami and you see a DB that is going nowhere.

He was drafted in the first round (16th?) and was a reserve in 06.
In 07, a new DC came in and moved him to safety.
He started 9 and the Dolphins went 1-15.
In 08 he started 2 games at nickel back the Dolphins rebounded to have a good season.
In 09, another DC came in and the Dolphins played 2 rookies at CBs (Vontae Davis and Sean Smith).

What about Allen?
Read this excerpt:

"...But five years into his NFL career, Allen has a different perspective on the role he has acquired — special teams ace. Allen, the former first-round pick who had 15 special teams tackles in 2009, was up to his old tricks in Saturday's exhibition victory over Jacksonville, forcing a fumble on the Dolphins' safety punt, which Tyrone Culver recovered on the Jaguars' 40.

Allen is competing with rookie Nolan Carroll to be the team's third cornerback while Will Allen recovers from a knee arthroscopy, but knows the best way he can get on the field is to excel on special teams.

"That's a good way to earn the coach's trust, by doing your job and knowing your role on special teams," Allen said. "You've just got to take it, and don't look at it as being something negative. Look at it as a positive."


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/dolphins/dolphins-notebook-cornerback-jason-allen-isnt-happy-with-874915.html

Did I read it right?
The third CB was recovering from surgery so they let Allen compete with a rookie for that spot?

At any rate, he started some games in 2010 and was released.

Three different DCs didn't see it in Allen.
It took the DC of "the worst defense and secondary" (I'm just repeating that term from those that have ben using it) to "discover" him!
I'm sorry but that sounds like a joke. :spit:

This is almost like if u were to say that no one saw anything in Foster so he will remain a dead beat just BECUSe of what ALL the NFL scouts and GMs said. Leagues leading rusher now. Who cares what Allen did before our what happened his first our last season in Miami. He was our best CB last season so go from that point.

thunderkyss
06-22-2011, 10:05 PM
I dont think he should automatically go into camp as the starter. I think J. Allen who out performed all of our CBs last season has earned the shot to be a starter.

Some say Allen isnt good, funny you can say that but after the season Jackson had i dont see how you can make that argument.

I don't think any of our corners should go into the season thinking they should be or would be a starter.

I just watched the Ravens game again & Jason Allen made more mistakes than any of our other CBs.... ok, maybe not more, but just as many.

Bottom line, they should all be thinking there's an opportunity for them all to be starters, but they've got to be better than they were last year & they have to bring their A game.

EllisUnit
06-22-2011, 11:10 PM
I don't think any of our corners should go into the season thinking they should be or would be a starter.

I just watched the Ravens game again & Jason Allen made more mistakes than any of our other CBs.... ok, maybe not more, but just as many.

Bottom line, they should all be thinking there's an opportunity for them all to be starters, but they've got to be better than they were last year & they have to bring their A game.

yeah allen made some mistakes but they were far few in between. All i'm saying is, there is no indication that jackson will get ANY better, he didnt improve any as the year went on. infact in some aspects i think he regressed in his coverage ability. While Jason and Quin besides the knock down to the jags for a TD :kubepalm: seemed to play pretty consistent.

76Texan
06-22-2011, 11:43 PM
yeah allen made some mistakes but they were far few in between. All i'm saying is, there is no indication that jackson will get ANY better, he didnt improve any as the year went on. infact in some aspects i think he regressed in his coverage ability. While Jason and Quin besides the knock down to the jags for a TD :kubepalm: seemed to play pretty consistent.

I will forget about the focus on Wade's defense and start breaking down the Texans games last year, starting with the Jets game (Allen's first game).

I will try to be fair and we will find out what was going on.

If you happen to disagree with anything in the break down, just say so.
We can certainly see it from different viewpoints.

thunderkyss
06-22-2011, 11:48 PM
yeah allen made some mistakes but they were far few in between. All i'm saying is, there is no indication that jackson will get ANY better, he didnt improve any as the year went on. infact in some aspects i think he regressed in his coverage ability. While Jason and Quin besides the knock down to the jags for a TD :kubepalm: seemed to play pretty consistent.

I think we should step back & realize KJac was a rookie in '10. Jason Allen was not. In fact Allen was cut from a team going nowhere after being moved to safety..... & we're talking about being cut by Bill Parcels, not some Smithiak conglomeration.

If any of the guys on our team has any hope of getting better, it would be Quin, KJac, & McCain.

Not Allen. He is what he is.

RagingBull
06-23-2011, 12:05 AM
...infact in some aspects i think he regressed in his coverage ability...

In Texansland they call that coaching him up.

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 09:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFV01kPwnY4

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 10:42 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass

76Texan
06-23-2011, 10:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFV01kPwnY4

The Giants game was not a god game for Jackson, a rookie in his 5th game.
I've discredited some of the "extreme" comments before.

But as you've said, you viewed Jason Allen in the new light.
You said "look at what he did for the Texans in his seven games here, don't look at the past 4-1/2 years".

At least, you can show that you don't have a double standrad (especially as Allen is a veteran with many more years playing in the NFL).

I can always come back to the earlier games.
You can't be afraid of reviewing the games since Allen came here.
You can't be afraid of comparing them side by side.

If it took Allen 4-1/2 year to improve, why can't you give a rookie a chance to show what he got in the second half of the year as compared to the "best" CB Allen that you claimed.

Now if you really want to get at it.
Show me some bad play that Jackson was involved in since Allen got here.
I will show you more bad plays from Allen.
How about it?

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 11:03 PM
The Giants game was not a god game for Jackson, a rookie in his 5th game.
I've discredited some of the "extreme" comments before.

But as you've said, you viewed Jason Allen in the new light.
You said "look at what he did for the Texans in his seven here, don't look at the past 4-1/2 years".

At least, you can show that you don't have a double standrad (especially as Allen is a veteran with many more years playing in the NFL).

I can always come back to the earlier games.
You can't be afraid of reviewing the games since Allen came here.
You can't be afraid of comparing them side by side.

If it took Allen 4-1/2 year to improve, why can't you give a rookie a chance to show what he got in the second half of the year as compared to the "best" CB Allen that you claimed.

Now if you really want to get at it.
Show me some bad play that Jackson was involved in since Allen got here.
I will show you more bad plays from Allen.
How about it?

i have been looking through all the highlights from all the season games, he worst play i have seen that allen had was that TD he gave up against the titans. BUT i want you to go back to 2008 and watch allen when he played against randy moss when moss was DEADLY. Allen held his own well although he did give up 1 TD.

I am not saying jackson is a bust, and he may get better, all i'm saying is that kubiaks job depends on this and i doubt he wants that resting on jacksons shoulders and i dont want to go through another learning curb season from our young and YOUNGER CBs.

If u need i can pull up the stats but the pass defense improved quite a bit after we got allen.

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 11:04 PM
haha aight cool. i have showed u 4 bad plays by jackson i have 3 more coming

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 11:09 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d/Galloway-62-yard-catch

76Texan
06-23-2011, 11:25 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81aa7e0d/Galloway-62-yard-catch

You must be a young man, EU!
And that's not a knock because I love to be young again.

That aside, you need to reread your own premises.
You are willing to give Allen 4 and a half year to show his worth.
You said his 7 games here with the Texans showed that he was the best CB on the team.

Prove it!

I've already got the Jets game down, but I may not have time to bring it up here straight away.
I won't change anything due to the "challenge".
I don't have an ego, I don't need to show that I am right.

But what I've always disagreed with is when one cannot back up his words.
I can tell you one thing though since you haven't been on this board long.
I do my homework. I don't rely on short term or selective memory.
I've done play by play for a few years now.
I'm willing to look at the ugliest as well as the best a player show.
I take into consideration different viewpoints on a play-by-play scenario.

So, let's get down to the task.
I've already started with the Jets game.
You said you've watched each game at least ten times.
Do tell and show us!

EllisUnit
06-23-2011, 11:37 PM
i am saying i "think" allen played better than jackson last season. I have all the Games on DVR but i dont have the equipment to put each game on my comp, edit it to provide all the bad plays jackson made. i wont lie Allen had some bad plays as well BUT his coverage skills were better, he played the ball better, and he had better feet last year. Will that be the case this season ??? who knows maybe it was one lucky season by allen, but until he shows me otherwise i will think he is better than jackson. And yes i'm 26 so i'm young although i feel 50.

76Texan
06-23-2011, 11:53 PM
i am saying i "think" allen played better than jackson last season. I have all the Games on DVR but i dont have the equipment to put each game on my comp, edit it to provide all the bad plays jackson made. i wont lie Allen had some bad plays as well BUT his coverage skills were better, he played the ball better, and he had better feet last year. Will that be the case this season ??? who knows maybe it was one lucky season by allen, but until he shows me otherwise i will think he is better than jackson. And yes i'm 26 so i'm young although i feel 50.

Well then you just need to be a little more patient.
I would have at least finish the first half of the Jets game tonight.

That is to post it.
It takes a while to post and then to edit, to bold the part that is important.
Many people have appreciated what I've been trying to do (and I have worked hard to keep my integrity so as not to disappoint them).

I can tell you one thing at this moment though.
The first quarter against the Jets, the D was pretty good.
It won't remain that way toward the end of the game though.
And Allen was a part of the poor plays, but he was only one of the many.
(Jackson would have the best performance among all, including the better known defenders on the other side: Revis and Cromartie.)

thunderkyss
06-24-2011, 01:46 AM
i am saying i "think" allen played better than jackson last season. I have all the Games on DVR but i dont have the equipment to put each game on my comp, edit it to provide all the bad plays jackson made. i wont lie Allen had some bad plays as well BUT his coverage skills were better, he played the ball better, and he had better feet last year. Will that be the case this season ??? who knows maybe it was one lucky season by allen, but until he shows me otherwise i will think he is better than jackson. And yes i'm 26 so i'm young although i feel 50.

I'll concede to you, that Allen played better than Jackson last year.

But, not by much.

The biggest improvement players make in the NFL is usually between years one & two.

Not 4 & 5 (which is what Allen is working on).

But 1 & 2 (which Jackson is working on).

I stand by what I said earlier.. none of these guys should be thinking they'll be a starter. Jackson is a lock to make the team, but other than that, McCain, Allen, McMannis, Molden (especially Molden) & the new guys should all be worried about making the team.

Jackson is a lock because of the rookie contract thing, not because he is the best of the bunch.

ubecool454
06-26-2011, 12:16 AM
In a thread started by EllisUnit, I stated that I have no idea how people like Football Outsiders tally their stats, and I do not believe in stats.
Well, here are some different numbers from houstontexans.com
You will have to ask Nick Scurfield where he got the numbers from.

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/2010-season-in-review-Cornerback/da37ff73-c8f6-4768-9cd7-ce46435d34d5

Notable number: 53.2 – Completion percentage allowed by Jackson (50 of 94 passes) in 2010. It was the best rate among Texans cornerbacks, and better than the completion percentage allowed by rookie Pro Bowler Devin McCourty (54.5 percent) of the Patriots.

Key splits: Jackson’s 53.2 completion percentage rate also compares favorably to some of the league’s top cornerbacks in their first years as starters: Nnamdi Asomugha (46.3 in 2005), Champ Bailey (47.8 in 1999), Charles Woodson (49.0 in 1998) and Darrelle Revis (59.1 in 2007).

Jackson and Revis’ first-year starting lines are almost identical. Jackson allowed 50 completions on 94 attempts; Revis allowed 55 completions on 93 attempts. Jackson had with two interceptions; Revis had three. Both players had 10 passes defensed.

I'm glad someone is thinking. The NFL game will slow down for Jackson this year. The biggest thing that most rookies say is that the speed of the game is much faster but it seems to slow down some after the rookie year. I think Jackson will be ok and all the haters will be loving him just like the Mario haters who wanted Vince or Bush and now they are and will be looking for new homes.

DocBar
06-26-2011, 03:09 AM
I'm glad someone is thinking. The NFL game will slow down for Jackson this year. The biggest thing that most rookies say is that the speed of the game is much faster but it seems to slow down some after the rookie year. I think Jackson will be ok and all the haters will be loving him just like the Mario haters who wanted Vince or Bush and now they are and will be looking for new homes.Have you read or heard what Phillips had to say about Jackson? IMHO, it was damning. I have doubts of Jackson making the team this year, 1st rounder or not. Phillips had BAD things to say about him

Lucky
06-26-2011, 06:38 AM
The biggest thing that most rookies say is that the speed of the game is much faster but it seems to slow down some after the rookie year.
Jabar Gaffney has never been characterized as fast, but he looks like Usain Bolt running by Jackson in this video (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass) (see the :33 mark).

Maybe Jackson does turn it around this season. That would be great. But I saw nothing in his rookie season to suggest that he's capable of such a turnaround. If that makes me a "hater", then OK.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 08:17 AM
Jabar Gaffney has never been characterized as fast, but he looks like Usain Bolt running by Jackson in this video (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81d39708/QB-Tebow-to-WR-Gaffney-50-yd-pass) (see the :33 mark).

Maybe Jackson does turn it around this season. That would be great. But I saw nothing in his rookie season to suggest that he's capable of such a turnaround. If that makes me a "hater", then OK.

I was going to cover the 50 yd pass to Gaffney in the Broncos game, but since you brought it up here, I might as well get to it.

I hate to say it, but if like to play 10 against 11, I would love to play against your team very much!

It was a 2-receiver route vs cover 2
What is the role of Nolan on the team if you don't consider that this was his fault?

Who was he supposed to cover? (Nobody)
Where was he supposed to be? (In the Dog House)
What was his responsibility? (None)

76Texan
06-26-2011, 08:57 AM
Here's the sequence of play.

Gafney lined up in the slot.
The Broncos motioned the outside receiver toward the linemen.
Jackson tightened up his split, but did not follow the receiver all the way to the inside.



http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226260.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226405.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226427.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 09:11 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226499.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226549.png

The outside receiver now was at the TE position; he would stay to block and never got out to run any route.

Jackson remained outside, indicating that the Texans were in some form of zone coverage.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 09:14 AM
The Broncos ran the play action fake; Tebow pretended to hand the ball to the RB in the offset I

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226612.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226656.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 09:16 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226698.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226731.png

Tebow pulled the ball back.
Here, the LBs read pass and started to drop back.
You would expect that your safeties do the same.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 09:24 AM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226816.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226840.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2017%20vs%20Broncos/vlcsnap-6226869.png

You can see that the receiver caught the ball on the hashmarks.

Whether the Texans were in cover 2 or cover 4, that is the safety's (Nolan) area of responsibility.

Notice how Pollard also came close to the play.
He had read the QB's eyes and came over to help.
If Pollard can come over from the other side of the field, Nolan had to be able to cover his zone; there's no but and/or anything about it.

Whether Nolan bit on the play action fake or not; he was way late in his read and didn't get back in time.
How can a safety be behind the CB?

thunderkyss
06-26-2011, 12:54 PM
FYI Gafney only had two other games (http://www.nfl.com/players/jabargaffney/gamelogs?id=GAF203145) all year, where he put up stats similar to his game against us.

There was that 140 yard game against the colts & their young secondary.

Then the game against the Jets where he probably played against Kyle Wilson or Antonio Cromartie.

Just a little perspective.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 01:42 PM
Now if you keep thinking that I'm saying just anything to defend Jackson, just wait about 30 minutes.

I've just finished the write-up of the Jets game and I'm in the process of uploading a few pictures of a play that is somewhat similar.
This one concerns Allen and Pollard.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 01:51 PM
Texans showed cover 2.

The outside receiver on top of the screen was covered by LCB Allen.
He would run a post route toward the deep middle.

Here you san see Cushing on the TE, with Wilson playing SS backing him up.
The TE would run an intermediate out route; Wilson followed him.

The outside receiver at the bottom of the screen was covered by LCB Quin.
This guy would run a crossing route across FS Pollard (who can't be seen in this screen shot, but he would show up shortly.)
What this route does is to occupy Pollard for as long as possible, preventing him from providing help over the top in time to back up Allen.

Quin never followed his receiver; that only served to freeze Pollard temporarily on the crossing route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350364.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350496.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 01:56 PM
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350517.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350545.png

The receiver Edwards went into motion to the slot and started his route.

The TE also fired out on his route.
He was about to get past Cushing and would be picked-up by Wilson.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:00 PM
Here, you can see the TE cut to the outside.
Wilson had him over the top while Cushing provided coverage underneath.

You can see that Allen was still ahead of the receiver downfield (around the Jets 45.).

You can also see the slant from the other side with Quin covering grass.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350639.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:04 PM
Here, Edwards was about to get past Allen at midfield.

Pollard can be seen broken off the crossing route to chase after the deep route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350657.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:06 PM
In this sequence, you can see that Edwards continued to pull away from Allen.
Pollard was trying to catch up.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350677.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350696.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350720.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:09 PM
Edwards pulled up as he saw that the ball was too long.
(The reason why Sanchez put up an inaccurate throw will be in the write-up that I hope to post sometimes today; I should be able to.)

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350738.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:19 PM
A different view shows Edward in his route.

As Edwars was about to get past Wilson, you can see that Wilson made no attempt to turn around.
He was gettign ready for the TE on the underneath out route.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6350987.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351923.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:26 PM
In this sequence here, you can see that Wilson was getting out on the TE.

Edwards put a double move on Allen, faking a cut to the outside by plating his left foot to the outside, but then he cut back to the inside, getting separation from Allen.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351944.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351955.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351964.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351975.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351987.png

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6351999.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:28 PM
Allen getting inside separation from Allen

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352012.png


Pollard catching up

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352026.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:33 PM
Edwards had looked back for the ball.

Here, he took one more look and decided that the ball was too long.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352036.png

So he pulled up

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352047.png

As the ball sailed past him

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352059.png

And fell to the ground

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%2011%20vs%20Jets/Slow%20Allen/vlcsnap-6352068.png

76Texan
06-26-2011, 02:37 PM
You can see here that as the receiver releases inside, the CB expects inside help.
Why?
Beacuse the CB also needs to defend the corner route as well as the come back route.

Pollard was temporarily occupied by the crossing route underneath, and he was still somewhat close to the play.

Nolan, on the other hand, had nothing to be concerned off; yet he was badly out of position.
On the Jackson's play, Nolan was cloer to the play than Pollard based on where he (Nolan) originally lined up but ended up further away.
That's poor play on the safety's part (Nolan).

You can't blame the CB for playing as the coverage requires that he plays certain way.

CloakNNNdagger
06-26-2011, 02:39 PM
Must spread the rep!

Very interesting and enlightening analyses/posts....will keep following.

EllisUnit
06-26-2011, 02:54 PM
Very good stuff 76. Nice work HOWEVER on Jacksons play it was Nolans fault even though it was man coverage?!?!?!?! Really, SO the WR was still Jacksons man and his responsibility. BUT in Allens it was his fault Because the CB also needs to defend the corner route as well as the come back route. Seeing a double standard here.

I think ur trying to hard. there is NO way Jackson played better than Allen last season. He may turn out to be a hall of famer CB and allen NOTHING, but as far as last season goes Allen outplayed Jackson. that has been my whole point.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 03:27 PM
Very good stuff 76. Nice work HOWEVER on Jacksons play it was Nolans fault even though it was man coverage?!?!?!?! Really, SO the WR was still Jacksons man and his responsibility. BUT in Allens it was his fault Because the CB also needs to defend the corner route as well as the come back route. Seeing a double standard here.

I think ur trying to hard. there is NO way Jackson played better than Allen last season. He may turn out to be a hall of famer CB and allen NOTHING, but as far as last season goes Allen outplayed Jackson. that has been my whole point.

Sorry, I believe the one who's trying too hard is you, EU!

I stated that on the Jackson's play, the Texans was in cover 2, clearly with 2 safeties deep and staying there (not coming up on any other route.)

Underneath, it had to be zone, because you don't put a LB on a WR.

Regardless whether it was zone or man under, when the receiver releases inside, the safety has help over the top in his 1/2 zone.

The receiver ran a post route right straight to the middle of Nolan's zone.

If you don't see that it is his responsibility than answer the question, what was Nolan supposed to do out there?
Standing still to collect his game check?

....

On the Allen's play, it is hard to tell what kind of covergae it was.
Wilson followed the TE; therefore, it makes more sense that it was man under with single safety help deep.
If this is the case, then Quin blew his assignment, since he didn't follow his receiver on the crossing route.

You misread me as I did not blame Allen on this play just the same as I didn't blame Jackson on his.

Both CBs (Jackson and Allen) had to defend the corner route and the come-back route. The post route is the responsibility of the safety.

In the Allen's play, Pollard was temporarily occupied by the crossing route, so it's understandable that he was a little late.
Had Quin followed the crossing route, Pollard would have the chance to get back a little sooner; he wasn't that far away from Edwards.

In the Jackson's play, Nolan's only concern was to help over the top.
There was no other threat in his zone.

thunderkyss
06-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Very good stuff 76. Nice work HOWEVER on Jacksons play it was Nolans fault even though it was man coverage?!?!?!?! Really, SO the WR was still Jacksons man and his responsibility. BUT in Allens it was his fault Because the CB also needs to defend the corner route as well as the come back route. Seeing a double standard here.

I think ur trying to hard. there is NO way Jackson played better than Allen last season. He may turn out to be a hall of famer CB and allen NOTHING, but as far as last season goes Allen outplayed Jackson. that has been my whole point.

But that's not at all what he is saying. He is saying both Allen & Jackson suffered from the same poor safety play, regardless who the safety was.

Both situations were similar. The Corner had outside responsibility, whether it was Allen or Jackson. The safety had the inside. Both WRs were able to get seperation from the CBs...... didn't matter if it was Allen or Jackson.

Both cases, the safeties were late with their responsibilities.

It's Anything-the-Texans-do-Hateraide that makes anyone think Allen played substantially better than Jackson. If Allen's play was better, it was marginal, which is trumped by his veteran status & Jackson's rookie status.

It makes more sense that Jackson would get better & Allen is as good as he is going to get.

76Texan
06-26-2011, 03:48 PM
It makes more sense that Jackson would get better & Allen is as good as he is going to get.

:fans:

76Texan
06-26-2011, 04:05 PM
On the Allen's play, there's a chance that the Texans tried a trick that nearly backfired on them:

They could be in inverted cover 2.

Quin stayed in his left outside zone (where there was only grass to cover) while Wilson stepped up to take Allen's place an ran out to the right outsiide zone (where the TE roamed).

Allen would run back to take Wilson's place as one of the two deep safeties.

This is always a risk in the inverted cover 2 that Wade employs quite frequently.

It requires that the CB who takes over safety's responsiblity to get depth really quick, especially against a deep route like this.

CloakNNNdagger
06-26-2011, 04:07 PM
But that's not at all what he is saying. He is saying both Allen & Jackson suffered from the same poor safety play, regardless who the safety was.

Both situations were similar. The Corner had outside responsibility, whether it was Allen or Jackson. The safety had the inside. Both WRs were able to get seperation from the CBs...... didn't matter if it was Allen or Jackson.

Both cases, the safeties were late with their responsibilities.

It's Anything-the-Texans-do-Hateraide that makes anyone think Allen played substantially better than Jackson. If Allen's play was better, it was marginal, which is trumped by his veteran status & Jackson's rookie status.

It makes more sense that Jackson would get better & Allen is as good as he is going to get.

:fans:

I'm not sure that I'd be ready to make that conclusion quite this soon. We don't have any idea how badly either of these players were set back by the actual scheme and coaching. I believe that Allen has at least as much chance of excelling with this change of guard as Jackson.......if not more. Only time will tell.

thunderkyss
06-26-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure that I'd be ready to make that conclusion quite this soon. We don't have any idea how badly either of these players were set back by the actual scheme and coaching. I believe that Allen has at least as much chance of excelling with this change of guard as Jackson.......if not more. Only time will tell.

To be fair, I'm not saying that is where we are at.... Just saying which is more likely.

Allen has already parlayed his first round status into the best available street FA.

Jason Allen- Draft bust
The Miami Dolphins' first round pick in 2006 is still struggling, even to make the squad for 2007.


This year's improvement was supposed to be a light years leap from 2006 when Allen missed the first three weeks of camp while his contract got done. That hasn't happened.

Despite spending much of last season enjoying something of a redshirt year because of his holdout, despite attending every offseason camp, despite having every reason to have his talent finally begin to shine, Allen has done nothing the first week of training camp to stand out.

Allen's disappointing situation speaks volumes when one considers the Dolphins entire cornerback picture. That picture puts Will Allen and Travis Daniels as the starters and veteran Michael Lehan as the next cornerback to play when Miami goes to its pass-situation defenses.

So that means Allen, at best, is Miami's fourth-best cornerback in the coaching staff's opinion. The problem is that veteran Andre' Goodman, who is still recovering from two offseason shoulder surgeries, won't be able to practice until very late in training camp.

But Goodman, who started 14 games last year, will also move ahead of Allen on the depth chart when he's healthy.

So where does that leave Allen?

He will be the fifth-best cornerback on the team that is likely to keep only five or six cornerbacks on the roster. Were it not for a contract that makes cutting him a painful salary cap proposition, Allen might be fighting to stay on the roster as much as players such as Shirdonya Mitchell, Derrick Johnson or some of the other guys you've never heard of.

The Dolphins, of course, are hoping Allen somehow finds his form and niche in the preseason. They hope the move he made to cornerback will clear some of the confusion he suffered while playing safety a year ago.
That Allen is at best the #4 CB on the team, says Miami has just made their latest draft mistake. Allen's non-performance to date further certifies how disastrous Miami's 1st round drafting has been 2006.

CloakNNNdagger
06-26-2011, 06:23 PM
To be fair, I'm not saying that is where we are at.... Just saying which is more likely.

Allen has already parlayed his first round status into the best available street FA.

People tend to forget that besides the 3 interceptions in 7 games with the Texans, he intercepted 3 additional passes in 7 starts for the Dolphins in 2010 prior to his acquisition by the Texans. Even though the Dolphin interceptions came in the early part of the season, it does illustrate that there is talent there. Furthermore the Dolphins' secondary was pathetic as was their coaching.......just like the 2010 Texans. We lost a Jason Babin to poor use and poor coaching. MAYBE we make gains with an "underdeveloped" player to good coaching. Again, only time will tell.

EllisUnit
06-28-2011, 06:03 PM
People tend to forget that besides the 3 interceptions in 7 games with the Texans, he intercepted 3 additional passes in 7 starts for the Dolphins in 2010 prior to his acquisition by the Texans. Even though the Dolphin interceptions came in the early part of the season, it does illustrate that there is talent there. Furthermore the Dolphins' secondary was pathetic as was their coaching.......just like the 2010 Texans. We lost a Jason Babin to poor use and poor coaching. MAYBE we make gains with an "underdeveloped" player to good coaching. Again, only time will tell.

agree with this 100% we have all seen players suck on one team only to go to another and be pretty darn good.

thunderkyss
06-28-2011, 08:54 PM
agree with this 100% we have all seen players suck on one team only to go to another and be pretty darn good.

No one is denying that. We've also seen corners look so-so to go on to be pretty darn good players.

It would have been nice, if KJac would have came in here & played lights out like Dione or Champ.... didn't happen, time to move on. Let's hope he'll be the next Revis or Rodgers-Cromartie or Brandon Flowers...

76Texan
06-28-2011, 11:12 PM
People tend to forget that besides the 3 interceptions in 7 games with the Texans, he intercepted 3 additional passes in 7 starts for the Dolphins in 2010 prior to his acquisition by the Texans. Even though the Dolphin interceptions came in the early part of the season, it does illustrate that there is talent there. Furthermore the Dolphins' secondary was pathetic as was their coaching.......just like the 2010 Texans. We lost a Jason Babin to poor use and poor coaching. MAYBE we make gains with an "underdeveloped" player to good coaching. Again, only time will tell.

You probably didn't catch the post in which I said that I did watch Allen play for the Dolphins.

I know that Allen had 3 INTs.
I can tell you that one of them is legit (he was actually beaten on the other two).

A couple years ago, I was bold as to say that some of Jacques Reeves' INTs weren't legit and you can't count on those to say that he's a good CB.

(Mind you, I also said the same thing when it came to Jackson's turn.)

When an INT was due to pass rush and/or poor QB play, it cannot be used to truthfully evaluate CB play.

You take everything into consideration, how they play in all the snaps in each game.
A CB that gets beat but the QB didn't see it is a lucky CB.
He's not a good CB.
Even though the stats show that no completion (nor TD) was made on him.

Lucky
06-29-2011, 06:30 AM
You take everything into consideration, how they play in all the snaps in each game.
How can you determine that, just by watching the game on the TV?

Answer: You can't.

gary
06-29-2011, 01:18 PM
How much of the poor safety or CB play was the result of improper coaching?

76Texan
06-29-2011, 02:10 PM
How can you determine that, just by watching the game on the TV?

Answer: You can't.

Baed on the same premises, nobody can judge the CB on any given play, so there's no sense of any fan to try to criticize any player.

So then, we have to rely on the coaching staffs.
Three different coaching staffs before the Texans didn't see Allen as a good CB worth to play the position.

Can you say that they don't know anything either?
It's their scheme, their player.
What do you make of that?

76Texan
06-29-2011, 02:12 PM
How much of the poor safety or CB play was the result of improper coaching?

Everything goes back to coaching/scheme/utilization of personnel when the whole secondary doesn't play well, Gary!