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View Full Version : "Right Track" coach? - Kubiak not even in the top 13


disaacks3
04-05-2011, 06:57 PM
Ranking the Head Coaches
1. Bill Belichick, New England Patriots
2. Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers
3. Andy Reid, Philadelphia Eagles
4. Mike McCarthy, Green Bay Packers
5. Sean Payton, New Orleans Saints
6. Tom Coughlin, New York Giants
7. Rex Ryan, New York Jets
8. Lovie Smith, Chicago Bears
9. Mike Smith, Atlanta Falcons
10. M. Shanahan, Washington Redskins
10. John Harbaugh, Baltimore Ravens

Others receiving votes:
12. Ken Whisenhunt
13. Jim Caldwell

Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/27641/power-rankings-top-10-nfl-head-coaches)

Kinda hard to argue when your coach hasn't taken you to the playoffs after 5+ years.

Corrosion
04-05-2011, 08:15 PM
I cant see Shanahan being in the top 10 - He hasnt done a thing since .... John Elway retired. Guy's like that can make just about any dumbass look like a great coach. :Broncopa: ..... errr :Redskinpalm:

ThaShark316
04-05-2011, 08:29 PM
LMFAO @ Caldwell #13...bwahahahahaha

I swear that dude's dumber than Kubiak.

eriadoc
04-05-2011, 08:49 PM
Guys I would rank lower than Kubiak:

AFC South - no one. Del Rio would be the obvious choice to rank lower than Kubiak, but for all his failings, he gets his team to the playoffs more frequently than Kubiak has. It's close, though. Del Rio's better by a nose.

AFC North - Marvin Lewis. Yeah, he's been to the playoffs, but he's lost his team, fostered an environment where anything goes, and he seems to make the same mistakes again and again. The jury's out on the Browns, IMO.

AFC West - the Broncos guy (can't recall his name). He screwed up the Cutler situation, IMO. He screwed up the Brandon Marshall situation, IMO. He's an arrogant ass, IMO. He took Tebow in the first round. He has had awful seasons both years. Chiefs, Chargers, and Raiders (Cable) all rank ahead of Kubiak, IMO.

AFC East - no one.

NFC South - you could argue John Fox, I guess, but in all honesty, I'd take him with our personnel over Kubiak and the Panthers' personnel. I think they're about equal, actually. John Fox:offense::Kubiak:defense. Bucs, Saints, and Falcons are a very strong trio of coaches.

NFC North - Childress is just awful. Lions are on the upswing, so while I don't know that I'd rank the Lions HC ahead of Kubiak, I'll not rank him below, either. Bears and Packers are solid, obviously.

NFC West - I think I'd take Kubiak over the Rams HC, but it's tough to say just yet. That guy inherited a team as bad as the '05 Texans, and he's rebuilding. If he plateaus for a few years at 8-8, then I guess it's a coin toss. I think Mora is a good coach, but I don't think he's better than Kubiak. The jury is out on the new 49ers coach, but Singletary was a disaster. And I can't say I'd rather have Kubiak than the Cards HC (Whisenhut/Whisenhunt?), but not sure the other way either. This is the worst division in football.

NFC East - The jury's still out on Garrett, but I'd take Kubiak over Jerry Jones every day and twice on Sunday. Shanahan is about equal, IMO. He grossly mishandled the McNabb situation, IMO, and didn't show very well this year at all. I guess the jury is still out on him, but since Kubiak is Shanahan cloned, I'll just rank them equal and not lose any sleep over it. Reid and Coughlin are solid, obviously.

Kubiak is in the bottom quarter of coaches, I reckon.

EllisUnit
04-05-2011, 09:19 PM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.

2slik4u
04-05-2011, 09:23 PM
Guys I would rank lower than Kubiak:

AFC South - no one. Del Rio would be the obvious choice to rank lower than Kubiak, but for all his failings, he gets his team to the playoffs more frequently than Kubiak has. It's close, though. Del Rio's better by a nose.

AFC North - Marvin Lewis. Yeah, he's been to the playoffs, but he's lost his team, fostered an environment where anything goes, and he seems to make the same mistakes again and again. The jury's out on the Browns, IMO.

AFC West - the Broncos guy (can't recall his name). He screwed up the Cutler situation, IMO. He screwed up the Brandon Marshall situation, IMO. He's an arrogant ass, IMO. He took Tebow in the first round. He has had awful seasons both years. Chiefs, Chargers, and Raiders (Cable) all rank ahead of Kubiak, IMO.

AFC East - no one.

NFC South - you could argue John Fox, I guess, but in all honesty, I'd take him with our personnel over Kubiak and the Panthers' personnel. I think they're about equal, actually. John Fox:offense::Kubiak:defense. Bucs, Saints, and Falcons are a very strong trio of coaches.

NFC North - Childress is just awful. Lions are on the upswing, so while I don't know that I'd rank the Lions HC ahead of Kubiak, I'll not rank him below, either. Bears and Packers are solid, obviously.

NFC West - I think I'd take Kubiak over the Rams HC, but it's tough to say just yet. That guy inherited a team as bad as the '05 Texans, and he's rebuilding. If he plateaus for a few years at 8-8, then I guess it's a coin toss. I think Mora is a good coach, but I don't think he's better than Kubiak. The jury is out on the new 49ers coach, but Singletary was a disaster. And I can't say I'd rather have Kubiak than the Cards HC (Whisenhut/Whisenhunt?), but not sure the other way either. This is the worst division in football.

NFC East - The jury's still out on Garrett, but I'd take Kubiak over Jerry Jones every day and twice on Sunday. Shanahan is about equal, IMO. He grossly mishandled the McNabb situation, IMO, and didn't show very well this year at all. I guess the jury is still out on him, but since Kubiak is Shanahan cloned, I'll just rank them equal and not lose any sleep over it. Reid and Coughlin are solid, obviously.

Kubiak is in the bottom quarter of coaches, I reckon.

This was well thought out and I agree with you for the most part. Only thing I wasnt on board with what you said was the part of the Bucs having a better head coach. Raheem Morris and Co. are nothing more than benefactors of circumstance. Look at the teams they beat last year, I promise, they arent as good as their record shows.

Good post nonetheless.

2slik4u
04-05-2011, 09:24 PM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.

Not a great head coach. Big difference.

Corrosion
04-05-2011, 09:45 PM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.


Kubiak's a Head Coach .... not an offensive coordinator. His job is to oversee both sides of the ball , not just one or the other.


Ive given Kubiak a lot of slack .... much more than most , and I have my reasons ... but his job isnt just offensive coordinator , thats Dennisons job description.

Kubiak has to manage the team and the game on both sides of the ball with the help of his assistants .... not the other way around.

wildroot
04-05-2011, 09:51 PM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.

If Gary wants to be a OC he should have kept his job in Denver. Great Head Coaches are involved in every facet of their team, they don't wash their hands of one side of the ball.

Corrosion
04-05-2011, 10:00 PM
If Gary wants to be a OC he should have kept his job in Denver. Great Head Coaches are involved in every facet of their team, they don't wash their hands of one side of the ball.

Kubiak didnt "wash his hands" of the defensive side of the ball , not by a longshot ....
He just didnt have a whole lot of talent to work with in the secondary. Then suspensions and injuries kept the team from ever fielding their intended starting defensive front seven.

Remember the team was 4-2 when Ryans was lost for the season ..... even if the defense didnt perform well in those games they performed .... less piss poor enough to go 4-2

steelbtexan
04-05-2011, 10:15 PM
This was well thought out and I agree with you for the most part. Only thing I wasnt on board with what you said was the part of the Bucs having a better head coach. Raheem Morris and Co. are nothing more than benefactors of circumstance. Look at the teams they beat last year, I promise, they arent as good as their record shows.

Good post nonetheless.

Just as Kubiak and the Texans weren't as good as their 2009 record due to the schedule.

Morris won 10 games last yr. When did Gary win 10 games?

Fox made to a SB and several NFC championship games > Gary

Del Rio makes playoff and does more with less > Gary

Caldwell makes SB as a rookie HC and the playoff with a badly injued team > Gary

Whisenhunt almost won a SB with the Cards for gods sake > Gary

Marvin Lewis made the playoffs with the god awful Bengals 2 yrs ago > Gary

And on And on And on......

steelbtexan
04-05-2011, 10:28 PM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.

Gary and great coach in the same sentence = LOL

What's your definition of great? 5-7 four yrs in a row. Yeah that's greatness.

steelbtexan
04-05-2011, 10:31 PM
Kubiak's a Head Coach .... not an offensive coordinator. His job is to oversee both sides of the ball , not just one or the other.


Ive given Kubiak a lot of slack .... much more than most , and I have my reasons ... but his job isnt just offensive coordinator , thats Dennisons job description.

Kubiak has to manage the team and the game on both sides of the ball with the help of his assistants .... not the other way around.

PM me with your reasons

I just cant cut him slack and not having hope for the upcoming season is a bummer.

eriadoc
04-05-2011, 10:56 PM
Kubiak didnt "wash his hands" of the defensive side of the ball , not by a longshot ....
He just didnt have a whole lot of talent to work with in the secondary.

He should fire the guy that's in charge of drafting then, because 2010 had not one player from the '05 team left.

Corrosion
04-05-2011, 11:13 PM
He should fire the guy that's in charge of drafting then, because 2010 had not one player from the '05 team left.

Not only drafting but FA aquisition ..... He tried to sign one FA CB and .... after that guy went back to NE , he did .... well , nothing.


Yes , I know Kubiak said he was happy with his kiddie corps secondary , but what do we really expect him to say ? They suck ? They arent good enough to win with ?
If you were in that position could you say those things and then expect those players to go out and give you anything ? (not that they did anyway).

PM me with your reasons

I just cant cut him slack and not having hope for the upcoming season is a bummer.



Doesnt really matter , I dont have much hope for the upcoming season either. :choke:

The Pencil Neck
04-05-2011, 11:27 PM
AFC West - the Broncos guy (can't recall his name). He screwed up the Cutler situation, IMO. He screwed up the Brandon Marshall situation, IMO. He's an arrogant ass, IMO. He took Tebow in the first round. He has had awful seasons both years. Chiefs, Chargers, and Raiders (Cable) all rank ahead of Kubiak, IMO.


McDaniels was fired after starting 3-9 last year. The new Broncos head coach is John Fox.

Cable was fired.


AFC East - no one.


Really? Not better than Chan Gailey? Or the Dolphins coach?

I'd rate him better than both those guys.


NFC South - you could argue John Fox, I guess, but in all honesty, I'd take him with our personnel over Kubiak and the Panthers' personnel. I think they're about equal, actually. John Fox:offense::Kubiak:defense. Bucs, Saints, and Falcons are a very strong trio of coaches.


Fox is in Denver. Rivera is the new Panthers coach.


NFC North - Childress is just awful. Lions are on the upswing, so while I don't know that I'd rank the Lions HC ahead of Kubiak, I'll not rank him below, either. Bears and Packers are solid, obviously.


Childress was fired.


NFC West - I think I'd take Kubiak over the Rams HC, but it's tough to say just yet. That guy inherited a team as bad as the '05 Texans, and he's rebuilding. If he plateaus for a few years at 8-8, then I guess it's a coin toss. I think Mora is a good coach, but I don't think he's better than Kubiak. The jury is out on the new 49ers coach, but Singletary was a disaster. And I can't say I'd rather have Kubiak than the Cards HC (Whisenhut/Whisenhunt?), but not sure the other way either. This is the worst division in football.


Mora? He was fired before last season. Pete Carroll is the Seahawks coach now and coached them all last year.

A couple of years ago, most of the people on this board would easily have taken Singletary over Kubiak. Not sayin, just sayin.


NFC East - The jury's still out on Garrett, but I'd take Kubiak over Jerry Jones every day and twice on Sunday. Shanahan is about equal, IMO. He grossly mishandled the McNabb situation, IMO, and didn't show very well this year at all. I guess the jury is still out on him, but since Kubiak is Shanahan cloned, I'll just rank them equal and not lose any sleep over it. Reid and Coughlin are solid, obviously.


I take Kubiak over Shanahan.

Lucky
04-05-2011, 11:55 PM
A couple of years ago, most of the people on this board would easily have taken Singletary over Kubiak. Not sayin, just sayin.
What has either accomplished? One was fired, the other should have been fired.

I take Kubiak over Shanahan.
That must be based on gut feel. Because it can't be based upon accomplishments.

After 5 seasons, are we still talking about Kubiak's "potential" as a head coach? I can't help but be reminded of David Carr's "potential".

The Pencil Neck
04-06-2011, 12:07 AM
What has either accomplished? One was fired, the other should have been fired.

My point was that people on this board would be just as good at picking coaches as McNair has been.


That must be based on gut feel. Because it can't be based upon accomplishments.


Shanahan has been less successful without Kubiak than Kubiak has been without Shanahan. Kubiak took over a talentless team and built a very powerful offense (granted, no defense.) Shanahan during that time started with a team that was pretty talented and went 9-7, 7-9, 8-8, and then was fired, and then when he came back, he's mishandled several situations.


After 5 seasons, are we still talking about Kubiak's "potential" as a head coach? I can't help but be reminded of David Carr's "potential".

No. We're not. But that's also no reason to act like Kubiak hasn't done anything good for this team or that this team is the worst team ever.

I've said several times that I would have fired him after last season. But with David Carr, there were no redeeming features. With Kubiak, there are. And there's every possibility that this team will be a playoff team next year.

Corrosion
04-06-2011, 02:16 AM
And there's every possibility that this team will be a playoff team next year.

If they can play defense ..... a little less bad , just bad instead of historically bad , there is no reason they shouldnt make the playoffs. If they can turn clusterf@ck into a top 15 defense , they could easily win the division.

Lucky
04-06-2011, 07:22 AM
But that's also no reason to act like Kubiak hasn't done anything good for this team... And there's every possibility that this team will be a playoff team next year.
Kubiak hasn't accomplished anything "good". 5 years without a playoff appearance isn't good. It isn't even mediocre. Jack Del Rio has taken his team to the postseason once in the past 5 years. There's every reason to "act" like you're not satisfied with the job Kubiak has done. Unless you're Bob McNair and his Sunshine Band.

There was every possibility that this team could have been a playoff team in 2008. 2009. 2010. But they weren't. There's no way to describe what Gary Kubiak has done over the past 5 years as good, unless you compare him to lowest standards of franchises like the Lions. The truth is that Kubiak received another gift year from McNair. Let's see if he takes advantage of it.

Wolf6151
04-06-2011, 07:41 AM
This really isn't news to anyone, we've all known that Kubiak was a good offensive coordinater but a very poor head coach, except Bob McNair.

GuerillaBlack
04-06-2011, 08:25 AM
Are we surprised? What progress has Kubiak shown, other than stats?

El Tejano
04-06-2011, 08:56 AM
I'd like to see how well Caldwell does without Payton Manning.

Corrosion
04-06-2011, 11:26 AM
I'd like to see how well Caldwell does without Payton Manning.

Manning would make even the worst coach look good .... Its obvious that he was dealt a winning hand but he didnt change or deviate from that and try to put his own stamp on the team which many ego's would have done.

Double Barrel
04-06-2011, 01:12 PM
I'd like to see the W/L records of all current head coaches (except for new HCs that don't have them, of course), as well as how many have been a head coach for five seasons without going to the playoffs.

At the end of the day, this is how we judge NFL head coaches, not with offensive/defensive rankings or stats, but wins, losses, and postseason appearances. Based on this approach, I'd bet that Kubiak falls somewhere in the 20's.

The Pencil Neck
04-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I'd like to see the W/L records of all current head coaches (except for new HCs that don't have them, of course), as well as how many have been a head coach for five seasons without going to the playoffs.

At the end of the day, this is how we judge NFL head coaches, not with offensive/defensive rankings or stats, but wins, losses, and postseason appearances. Based on this approach, I'd bet that Kubiak falls somewhere in the 20's.

I believe that Kubiak is the only coach in the modern era to coach for 5 seasons consecutively with the same team without making the playoffs. To the best of my knowledge, the closest a coach has done that's similar recently would be Jeff Fisher who took over for Pardee and then after that had 4 seasons without a playoff and then made it in his 5th full season.

The only other coach that comes to mind was Landry who made it to the playoffs in his 7th season.

HoustonFrog
04-06-2011, 02:06 PM
I believe that Kubiak is the only coach in the modern era to coach for 5 seasons consecutively with the same team without making the playoffs. To the best of my knowledge, the closest a coach has done that's similar recently would be Jeff Fisher who took over for Pardee and then after that had 4 seasons without a playoff and then made it in his 5th full season.

The only other coach that comes to mind was Landry who made it to the playoffs in his 7th season.

In the modern era I believe the only other one was Bart Starr.

eriadoc
04-06-2011, 02:22 PM
McDaniels was fired after starting 3-9 last year. The new Broncos head coach is John Fox.

Cable was fired.

Really? Not better than Chan Gailey? Or the Dolphins coach?

I'd rate him better than both those guys.

Fox is in Denver. Rivera is the new Panthers coach.

Childress was fired.

Mora? He was fired before last season. Pete Carroll is the Seahawks coach now and coached them all last year.

A couple of years ago, most of the people on this board would easily have taken Singletary over Kubiak. Not sayin, just sayin.

I take Kubiak over Shanahan.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was ranking Kubiak against the coaches from last year, as it's pretty impossible to rank him against new coaches. Gailey and Carroll I forgot about. The others were intentional comparisons. I'd say Cable did a better job than Kubiak has done, for instance. His firing is incidental to the argument. And I don't think Kubiak is better than the Dolphins coach, either. JMO.

Corrosion
04-06-2011, 03:30 PM
For the sake of the sanity of us fans ..... Lets hope Gary gets his shit together this coming season (If there is one) , the team can avoid serious injuries .... and they not only make the playoffs but make a deep run.

Its past time for the team , the city and the fans to catch a break or two .... Its really sucked to be a Houston sports fan the last few years with all three major franchises sucking like a $5 whore. :rake:

EllisUnit
04-06-2011, 04:39 PM
Kubiak's a Head Coach .... not an offensive coordinator. His job is to oversee both sides of the ball , not just one or the other.


Ive given Kubiak a lot of slack .... much more than most , and I have my reasons ... but his job isnt just offensive coordinator , thats Dennisons job description.

Kubiak has to manage the team and the game on both sides of the ball with the help of his assistants .... not the other way around.

i agree BUT since he will be our coach next year i'm curious to see how we do now that he dont have to deal with the defense like he has all his previous seasons. We all know he is not a defensive minded coach.

EllisUnit
04-06-2011, 04:41 PM
For the sake of the sanity of us fans ..... Lets hope Gary gets his shit together this coming season (If there is one) , the team can avoid serious injuries .... and they not only make the playoffs but make a deep run.

Its past time for the team , the city and the fans to catch a break or two .... Its really sucked to be a Houston sports fan the last few years with all three major franchises sucking like a $5 whore. :rake:

5$ whores dont suck as good as they have though. dont give them whores to much credit why else would they be 5$ :thisbig:

Corrosion
04-06-2011, 04:48 PM
i agree BUT since he will be our coach next year i'm curious to see how we do now that he dont have to deal with the defense like he has all his previous seasons. We all ASSUME he is not a defensive minded coach.

Edited for clarity.


:thinking: And you know what that word means. :nolisten:


5$ whores dont suck as good as they have though. dont give them whores to much credit why else would they be 5$ :thisbig:

I guess $5 dont buy what it use to ..... :money:

Carr Bombed
04-06-2011, 07:41 PM
Edited for clarity.


:thinking: And you know what that word means. :nolisten:




I guess $5 dont buy what it use to ..... :money:

Dude, the gas pump barely blows for $5 :)

thunderkyss
04-07-2011, 08:28 AM
I think Kubiak is a great coach, he finally has someone who can run the Defense and he can focus purely on the offense now.

This is one person who has this opinion.

I'm sure there are more, but it is rarely expressed.

The soapers would have you believe this is the prevalent opinion, though the majority of opinions on this board reflect the view of the soapers.

disaacks3
04-07-2011, 10:40 AM
This is one person who has this opinion.

I'm sure there are more, but it is rarely expressed.

The soapers would have you believe this is the prevalent opinion, though the majority of opinions on this board reflect the view of the soapers. And what, exactly, has Kubiak done in his HEAD coaching career to make anyone think otherwise? How many top-tier DEfenses has he fielded as opposed to high-powered OFfenses?

I'll venture to say that there are MANY folks who wondered if Kubiak would be a good overall coach...Years later, we're all still wondering.

Double Barrel
04-07-2011, 12:11 PM
This is one person who has this opinion.

I'm sure there are more, but it is rarely expressed.

The soapers would have you believe this is the prevalent opinion, though the majority of opinions on this board reflect the view of the soapers.

I talk to Texans fans from all walks of life. Clients who are multi-millionaires working international deals to regular truck drivers making deliveries to our warehouse. Friends, family, and random strangers that see the logo on my hat. Almost all of them wonder why Kubiak still has a job. I think this off-season the prevalent mood among Texans Nation is more likely to be on the side of so-called "soapers".

The Sunshine Club has worn out it's welcome with continuous unfulfilled promises year after year. All but the most optimistic homers see 37-43 and no playoffs in five seasons for what it is at the end of the day.

All of these folks are still Texans fans, though. Just not happy shiny fans.

EllisUnit
04-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Edited for clarity.


:thinking: And you know what that word means. :nolisten:




I guess $5 dont buy what it use to ..... :money:

it dont :thinking:

thunderkyss
04-07-2011, 10:30 PM
I talk to Texans fans from all walks of life. Clients who are multi-millionaires working international deals to regular truck drivers making deliveries to our warehouse. Friends, family, and random strangers that see the logo on my hat. Almost all of them wonder why Kubiak still has a job. I think this off-season the prevalent mood among Texans Nation is more likely to be on the side of so-called "soapers".

The Sunshine Club has worn out it's welcome with continuous unfulfilled promises year after year. All but the most optimistic homers see 37-43 and no playoffs in five seasons for what it is at the end of the day.

All of these folks are still Texans fans, though. Just not happy shiny fans.

I agree. I argue no different.

Just saying.

EllisUnit
04-07-2011, 10:43 PM
This is one person who has this opinion.

I'm sure there are more, but it is rarely expressed.

The soapers would have you believe this is the prevalent opinion, though the majority of opinions on this board reflect the view of the soapers.

:thinking: i dunno

Second Honeymoon
04-08-2011, 11:47 AM
LMFAO @ Caldwell #13...bwahahahahaha

I swear that dude's dumber than Kubiak.

wrong. kubiak called a timeout so caldwell could take a second look at a Texans touchdown. that is a head to head matchup. caldwell was dumb not to throw the flag initially but Kubiak stupidity and ignorance trumped caldwell's on a head to head matchup when Kubiak called a timeout so he could take a few seconds off the clock. well in the end, Texans touchdown overturned and the Colts got the ball as the ball was fumbled into the endzone.

All Kubiak had to do was have Schaub do a QB spike and we probably win that game, go 10-6, and probably find a way into the 09 playoffs.

So in that matchup, Kubiak is clearly dumber than Caldwell.

Kubiak would be my worst coach in the league with 3 years or more service, and probably my 3rd worst overall better than only Mangini, McDaniels (fired), and Cable (fired). So basically other than noobie coaches, Kubiak is only better than Mangini, and maybe Gailey.
Go through the list. It's actually pretty sad how many coaches are better, more proven, and more successful than Kubiak. Not hard, I know, but still.

Every NFC West coach is better. Whisenhunt, Caroll, Spagnulo. Harbaugh is new.
Every NFC East coach is better. Shanahan, Reid, Coughlin. Garrett is new.
Every NFC South coach is better. Payton, Morris, Smith. Rivera is new.
Every NFC North coach is better. Smith, Schwartz, McCarthy. Frazier is new.
Every AFC South coach is better. Del Rio, Caldwell, and Munchak is new and Kubiak may be better than him. He is in over his head imho.
Every AFC East coach is better. Belichick and Ryan are no brainers. Sparano is close, but he is better and Gailey is arguably better but I will give nod to Gary.
Every AFC North coach is better besides Mangini and he is basically dead man walking. Harbaugh, Undercover Brother, and Marvin Lewis are better.
Every returning AFC West coach is better as well.

its pretty sad. We could have the best coach available, Cowher, but its more important to placate losers and make excuses as opposed to doing everything possible to win and to put the best product on the field. As long as the yayhoos and yokels in this city keep making excuses and supporting a piss poor product, we will continue to be the Chicago Cubs of the NFL. and that is NOT a compliment. loyal fans and a pathetic team. hoooooray Houston.

Lucky
04-08-2011, 08:09 PM
So basically other than noobie coaches, Kubiak is only better than Mangini, and maybe Gailey.
Mangini was fired and replaced by Pat Shurmur, former Rams OC.

I agree with your point regarding the head-to-head matchup with Caldwell. If Kubiak were a CB, he would have fell down. And Kubiak sports a resume that compares with coaches who have been fired. The major excuse for keeping him was the trauma of change. Even though the defense would need to be revamped for the 3-4. And a WCO coordinator wouldn't be difficult to find. Is the real reason because McNair didn't want to breakout the checkbook for a proven winner? It has to be considered as a possibility.

Rey
04-08-2011, 08:13 PM
Is the real reason because McNair didn't want to breakout the checkbook for a proven winner? It has to be considered as a possibility.

Definitely.

I don't know McNair, but it has to be one of two things...what you said, or he really believes in the guy....

Either way, it doesn't make him look competent as an owner. Hopefully Gary fixes that.

Corrosion
04-08-2011, 08:40 PM
Mangini was fired and replaced by Pat Shurmur, former Rams OC.

I agree with your point regarding the head-to-head matchup with Caldwell. If Kubiak were a CB, he would have fell down. And Kubiak sports a resume that compares with coaches who have been fired. The major excuse for keeping him was the trauma of change. Even though the defense would need to be revamped for the 3-4. And a WCO coordinator wouldn't be difficult to find. Is the real reason because McNair didn't want to breakout the checkbook for a proven winner? It has to be considered as a possibility.

The real reason McNair didnt fire Kubiak was the uncertainty surrounding the season because of the CBA.

Why pay him to leave and pay someone else to come in and do nothing in the event that there is no season.

The trauma of change comes into play in the event of a shortened season which is a very real possibility - again , why pay him to leave for what amounts to a wasted season. May as well get your moneys worth.

If by some miracle there is a full season , McNair has one last opportunity to see what Gary's made of. If he is worth retaining after his current contract expires with no financial risk.

This was a purely financial decision and a good one in that context. When you take it in the context of football , it looks to be a poor decision.

wildroot
04-09-2011, 10:21 AM
The real reason McNair didnt fire Kubiak was the uncertainty surrounding the season because of the CBA.

Why pay him to leave and pay someone else to come in and do nothing in the event that there is no season.

The trauma of change comes into play in the event of a shortened season which is a very real possibility - again , why pay him to leave for what amounts to a wasted season. May as well get your moneys worth.

If by some miracle there is a full season , McNair has one last opportunity to see what Gary's made of. If he is worth retaining after his current contract expires with no financial risk.

This was a purely financial decision and a good one in that context. When you take it in the context of football , it looks to be a poor decision.

There were several GOOD owners that in fact did make a move at HC this past off-season and IMO will improve their team even with the current CBA situation. Our owner keeps finding reasons to keep Gary around for "one more year" which always leads to "wait till next year". (sigh)

Corrosion
04-09-2011, 09:59 PM
There were several GOOD owners that in fact did make a move at HC this past off-season and IMO will improve their team even with the current CBA situation. Our owner keeps finding reasons to keep Gary around for "one more year" which always leads to "wait till next year". (sigh)

We can ***** and complain all we want , but they aint our millions to throw away. Keeping Gary was the logical financial decision.

wildroot
04-09-2011, 10:48 PM
We can ***** and complain all we want , but they aint our millions to throw away. Keeping Gary was the logical financial decision.

Throw away? Either way he goes, he's going to make a crap load of money or a boat load of money...this team's a gold mine for him.

steelbtexan
04-09-2011, 11:12 PM
We can ***** and complain all we want , but they aint our millions to throw away. Keeping Gary was the logical financial decision.

Yes it was, and this is the main reason Gary shouldn't have had his contract extended in the 1st place.

Oh well, water under the bridge.

beerlover
04-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Bob McNair has hired an excellent defensive coordinator (Capers) & offensive coordinator (Kubiak) but has yet to hire an excellent head coach.

Thorn
04-10-2011, 10:17 AM
Bob McNair has hired an excellent defensive coordinator (Capers) & offensive coordinator (Kubiak) but has yet to hire an excellent head coach.

I couldn't agree more with this. If Bum, er..uh...his boy, shapes up the defense and Kubiak stays out of his way, the team could improve quite a bit making him look better.

infantrycak
04-10-2011, 11:32 AM
Oh well, water under the bridge.

One would wish and yet it is brought up ad infinitum.

Lucky
04-10-2011, 11:44 AM
One would wish and yet it is brought up ad infinitum.
That's because it's the most critical element of a NFL team. We can talk about who is playing CB or who will be the #2 WR until we are blue in the face. That will never be as relevant as who is the head coach. The head coach (usually) defines a NFL team.

The Pencil Neck
04-10-2011, 07:45 PM
That's because it's the most critical element of a NFL team. We can talk about who is playing CB or who will be the #2 WR until we are blue in the face. That will never be as relevant as who is the head coach. The head coach (usually) defines a NFL team.

I think a head coach is very important for an NFL team. but I don't think that the head coach defines the team like one does for basketball.

If that were the case, I think we'd see a lot more SB winning head coaches being successful at other teams. Parcells and Dungy are really the only two SB winning head coaches that I think could go to just about any team and be successful.

There are a lot more variables with an NFL team than there is for something like basketball and that decreases the importance of the head coach. It's more important, I think, to have the right coaching staff put together and the right mix of players on the field than it is to have a good head coach.

But, that's just me and I realize that's not a popular opinion.

infantrycak
04-10-2011, 08:28 PM
That's because it's the most critical element of a NFL team. We can talk about who is playing CB or who will be the #2 WR until we are blue in the face. That will never be as relevant as who is the head coach. The head coach (usually) defines a NFL team.

And I wasn't understating the importance of the HC but fact is the decision has been made and Kubiak will be the HC this coming season. I'd rather discuss the current situation rather than one which is not going to exist.

Corrosion
04-10-2011, 08:51 PM
And I wasn't understating the importance of the HC but fact is the decision has been made and Kubiak will be the HC this coming season. I'd rather discuss the current situation rather than one which is not going to exist.

Yep , we may as well move on , no sense bitching about something thats not going to change , unless they drop the first four games or so.

We've got better things to talk about at least for the next month or so .... after that we get nuttin till the bilionaires and millionaires work out the bullshit.

gary
04-10-2011, 08:59 PM
No we like bitching around here it is just what we do. LOL.

Corrosion
04-10-2011, 09:01 PM
No we like bitching around here it is just what we do. LOL.

Yeah you are right Gary ..... continue if you must. :nolisten:

Lucky
04-10-2011, 09:05 PM
I'd rather discuss the current situation rather than one which is not going to exist.

Yep , we may as well move on , no sense bitching about something thats not going to change
This is a thread about where NFL head coaches rank, right? The current situation is the Texans head coach ranks among the worst. Seems like a legitimate discussion. Trying to find a current head coach with a similar record is difficult, as most have been fired. Inevitably, it turns around to "Why is this guy still here?".

infantrycak
04-10-2011, 09:13 PM
This is a thread about where NFL head coaches rank, right? The current situation is the Texans head coach ranks among the worst. Seems like a legitimate discussion. Trying to find a current head coach with a similar record is difficult, as most have been fired. Inevitably, it turns around to "Why is this guy still here?".

Context is everything. The person I quoted has been on a rampage in all sorts of threads about keeping Kubiak. Here he said it was water under the bridge as if he was finally able to let it go. My post was essentially a pat on the back that yeah, everybody knew what he wanted to happen and it was time to move on. I never said or implied for folks not to talk about Kubiak but complaining about the decision to keep him is tired at this point.

eriadoc
04-10-2011, 09:13 PM
I think a head coach is very important for an NFL team. but I don't think that the head coach defines the team like one does for basketball.

The head coach these days is increasingly the one who not only decides which players suit up on Sunday, but which ones suit up on draft day. So yeah, the HC defines the team.

JPPT1974
04-10-2011, 09:56 PM
It is do or die time for Kubiak to produce or he will be out looking at another job.

Lucky
04-10-2011, 10:02 PM
It is do or die time for Kubiak to produce or he will be out looking at another job.
This will be Kubiak's third "Do or die" season. Possibly, an (unofficial) NFL record.

Corrosion
04-10-2011, 10:03 PM
This is a thread about where NFL head coaches rank, right? The current situation is the Texans head coach ranks among the worst. Seems like a legitimate discussion. Trying to find a current head coach with a similar record is difficult, as most have been fired. Inevitably, it turns around to "Why is this guy still here?".

I dont disagree with the question .... but its already been answered. :money:

steelbtexan
04-10-2011, 10:12 PM
Gary < Rampage

People who owe me $$$$$ > rampage

LOL

CloakNNNdagger
04-10-2011, 10:37 PM
It is do or die time for Kubiak to produce or he will be out looking at another job.

Not until 2012.

disaacks3
04-10-2011, 10:41 PM
Not until 2012. Maybe the Mayans were right about the end of the world....because that appears to be what it'll take to get Kubiak out of here at this point.

HoustonFrog
04-10-2011, 10:42 PM
#32 baby

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/04/07/ranking-the-nfl-head-coaches-part-ii/

32. Gary Kubiak (age 50). Five years, no playoffs, and he is coming back. In each of the last two years, he has made baffling end-of-game decisions that run counter to how his team should be playing, and could have made the playoffs each of the last two with better management. He can run an offense, but the defense has regressed under Kubiak, and they seem to constantly come up small when it matters most.

Second Honeymoon
04-10-2011, 10:48 PM
#32 baby

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/04/07/ranking-the-nfl-head-coaches-part-ii/

Yup, Kubiak sucks.

The Pencil Neck
04-11-2011, 12:25 AM
The head coach these days is increasingly the one who not only decides which players suit up on Sunday, but which ones suit up on draft day. So yeah, the HC defines the team.

I think that was true a few years ago when you had guys like Parcells and Holmgren doing the coach/GM thing and a lot of coaches wanting to have more personnel decisions but as they were saying on the NFLN a few days ago, the pendulum has swung back so that the last word on personnel has in general shifted back to the GM.

Guys like John Fox and Tom Coughlin have always been good coaches. Maybe not great ones, but good ones. And sometimes they have good years and good teams and sometimes, they don't. Their ability to coach doesn't wax and wane with the alignment of the stars. It's just this player doesn't work out like you expected, this player gets injured, etc., and the whole team goes up or down.

Sometimes you get a team that's put together by someone else and a particular coach is able to be the right guy in the right place to take that team to the championship like a Gruden or a Seifert or a Switzer. Those coaches didn't define those teams.

Out of all the coaches who've won a Super Bowl, none of them have gone on to coach another team and win another Super Bowl. Holmgren did pretty good with the Seahawks but he lucked into a weak division. Jimmy Johnson was able to go to the Dolphins and at least get them to the playoffs (but then his teams got massacred.) Parcells has been great at turning teams around but he's never been able to recreate te magic that he had with the Giants.

And if the head coach was that important, you'd have a few that were able to win multiple SBs. In the NBA, you've got 3 coaches who've won the championship with 2 teams and a lot of coaches who've coached multiple teams deep into the playoffs. Heck, Larry Brown was even able to coach the CLIPPERS to the playoffs and he's been to the playoffs 18 times with 8 different teams and has taken 2 different teams to the finals.

Mr teX
04-11-2011, 08:53 AM
#32 baby

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/04/07/ranking-the-nfl-head-coaches-part-ii/

Not saying that Kubiak's place isn't deserved but c'mon. This dude has Chan Gailey & Mike Munchak & Leslie Frazier ahead of guys like Norv Turner...1 guy hasn't even coached a game yet & the 2 others haven't been anything special...

infantrycak
04-11-2011, 10:43 AM
Not saying that Kubiak's place isn't deserved but c'mon. This dude has Chan Gailey & Mike Munchak & Leslie Frazier ahead of guys like Norv Turner...1 guy hasn't even coached a game yet & the 2 others haven't been anything special...

Yup. I know Munchak is a local hero and all but by definition he has to be at the bottom of the list. He has never even been a coordinator. He's never called a play on either side of the ball. People talk about Capers or Kubiak plateauing out at coordinator. Munchak never even climbed the hill. Not saying he won't work out but you want to talk about hiring inexperienced coaches and looking cheap as an owner and that is exhibit A.

Double Barrel
04-11-2011, 12:56 PM
Out of all the coaches who've won a Super Bowl, none of them have gone on to coach another team and win another Super Bowl.

While this stat is certainly irrefutable, it does not really pertain to a team that has yet to even make the playoffs. The list is long of head coaches that have taken multiple teams to the playoffs, and this is where we should concern ourselves, not the arguments of elite teams getting to championship games.

The stat I'd like to see is how many head coaches have 80 games in the NFL but have not made the playoffs? There's a list of losers, and unfortunately, Kubiak's name would be found on this one, as well.

Second Honeymoon
04-11-2011, 01:01 PM
Not saying that Kubiak's place isn't deserved but c'mon. This dude has Chan Gailey & Mike Munchak & Leslie Frazier ahead of guys like Norv Turner...1 guy hasn't even coached a game yet & the 2 others haven't been anything special...

Yeah Norv is a pretty good HC and deserves a bit more respect.

Doesn't it make you feel good that we have a HC who is arguably the worst HC in the league? Even getting presented with the discussion just shows you that Kubiak should have been fired. In fact, he should have been fired after 2008.

Please fire this loser, Bob. You are just wasting everyone's time until you do so.

The Pencil Neck
04-11-2011, 01:31 PM
While this stat is certainly irrefutable, it does not really pertain to a team that has yet to even make the playoffs. The list is long of head coaches that have taken multiple teams to the playoffs, and this is where we should concern ourselves, not the arguments of elite teams getting to championship games.

The stat I'd like to see is how many head coaches have 80 games in the NFL but have not made the playoffs? There's a list of losers, and unfortunately, Kubiak's name would be found on this one, as well.

Exactly. That's why he should have been fired last year. Even though he has built a really good offense, the fact that he's consistently made such bad decisions defensively should have cost him the job.

This isn't the 60's where you can go 6 years without getting to the playoffs and the owner back and support you. Or... maybe it is. I don't know. Most teams are able to build and make it into the playoffs in 3-4 years. Teams that are really crappy may take a year more (which is why I said give my 5 years to get the Lions up to speed in the other thread).

But that's all water under the bridge now. He's our coach this next season. He may have finally learned his lesson and brought in someone who'll actually field a professional defense. This team might actually do something next year.

Or not.

Mr teX
04-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Exactly. That's why he should have been fired last year. Even though he has built a really good offense, the fact that he's consistently made such bad decisions defensively should have cost him the job.

This isn't the 60's where you can go 6 years without getting to the playoffs and the owner back and support you. Or... maybe it is. I don't know. Most teams are able to build and make it into the playoffs in 3-4 years. Teams that are really crappy may take a year more (which is why I said give my 5 years to get the Lions up to speed in the other thread).

But that's all water under the bridge now. He's our coach this next season. He may have finally learned his lesson and brought in someone who'll actually field a professional defense. This team might actually do something next year.

Or not.

See this is the thing imo. People always reference these teams who "turn it around" in 1-2 years but i want to see the percentage of those teams who actually stay turned around. It sure as hell would be nice to have made the playoffs this past year or year before...but i wonder how many peoples opinion of kubiak would have changed even he had taken us a few times.....especially if we got smacked ala Jimmy johnson & dolphins vs. the jags in 2000.... or those late game decisions had reared their ugly head in a playoff game.

My point is I could care less if it's kubiak or whomever that takes us there....just get us there......& lets make some noise when we do get there....no token playoff appearances.

The Pencil Neck
04-11-2011, 02:55 PM
See this is the thing imo. People always reference these teams who "turn it around" in 1-2 years but i want to see the percentage of those teams who actually stay turned around. It sure as hell would be nice to have made the playoffs this past year or year before...but i wonder how many peoples opinion of kubiak would have changed even he had taken us a few times.....especially if we got smacked ala Jimmy johnson & dolphins vs. the jags in 2000.... or those late game decisions had reared their ugly head in a playoff game.

My point is I could care less if it's kubiak or whomever that takes us there....just get us there......& lets make some noise when we do get there....no token playoff appearances.

Most teams don't stay turned around. Most teams make a playoff appearance or two and then drop out of the playoffs for a few years and then come back up for a year or two and then drop back out.

A year ago or so, I took a look at teams turn arounds and coaching changes and things and iirc, that's what I saw a lot of. Teams like the Colts who are in the playoffs for 10+ years are very rare.

Thorn
04-11-2011, 05:41 PM
A quick google on nfl team playoff appearances in the past 10 years.

Indianapolis Colts 9
Philadelphia Eagles 8
New England Patriots 7
Pittsburgh Steelers 6
New York Giants 6
Baltimore Ravens 6
Green Bay Packers 6
Tennessee Titans 5
Carolina Panthers 5
Seattle Seahawks 5
New York Jets 5
San Diego Chargers 5
St. Louis Rams 4
Denver Broncos 4
Dallas Cowboys 4
Minnesota Vikings 4
Oakland Raiders 3
Chicago Bears 3
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 3
Miami Dolphins 3
New Orleans Saints 3
Atlanta Falcons 3
Arizona Cardinals 2
Cincinnati Bengals 2
Jacksonville Jaguars 2
Kansas City Chiefs 2
Washington Redskins 2
San Francisco 49ers 2
Cleveland Browns 1
Buffalo Bills 0
Houston Texans 0
Detroit Lions 0

gary
04-11-2011, 06:24 PM
A quick google on nfl team playoff appearances in the past 10 years.

Indianapolis Colts 9
Philadelphia Eagles 8
New England Patriots 7
Pittsburgh Steelers 6
New York Giants 6
Baltimore Ravens 6
Green Bay Packers 6
Tennessee Titans 5
Carolina Panthers 5
Seattle Seahawks 5
New York Jets 5
San Diego Chargers 5
St. Louis Rams 4
Denver Broncos 4
Dallas Cowboys 4
Minnesota Vikings 4
Oakland Raiders 3
Chicago Bears 3
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 3
Miami Dolphins 3
New Orleans Saints 3
Atlanta Falcons 3
Arizona Cardinals 2
Cincinnati Bengals 2
Jacksonville Jaguars 2
Kansas City Chiefs 2
Washington Redskins 2
San Francisco 49ers 2
Cleveland Browns 1
Buffalo Bills 0
Houston Texans 0
Detroit Lions 0The Texans are one of three teams without one.:wadepalm:

Corrosion
04-11-2011, 09:47 PM
A quick google on nfl team playoff appearances in the past 10 years.

Indianapolis Colts 9
Philadelphia Eagles 8
New England Patriots 7
Pittsburgh Steelers 6
New York Giants 6
Baltimore Ravens 6
Green Bay Packers 6
Tennessee Titans 5
Carolina Panthers 5
Seattle Seahawks 5
New York Jets 5
San Diego Chargers 5
St. Louis Rams 4
Denver Broncos 4
Dallas Cowboys 4
Minnesota Vikings 4
Oakland Raiders 3
Chicago Bears 3
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 3
Miami Dolphins 3
New Orleans Saints 3
Atlanta Falcons 3
Arizona Cardinals 2
Cincinnati Bengals 2
Jacksonville Jaguars 2
Kansas City Chiefs 2
Washington Redskins 2
San Francisco 49ers 2
Cleveland Browns 1
Buffalo Bills 0
Houston Texans 0
Detroit Lions 0

Its all kinda cyclical , if you look at the decade prior , many of those at the top were at the bottom and those at the bottom at the top .... Buffalo Superbowl appearances ? The 49ers and Redskins were tough for a long time.

The Dolts were a horrible team for a long time - Until Pey-me-a-ton came along.

The Eagles went thru a rough time before their recent good fortune.

The Pats were an ugly team that made a turnaround.

The Giants were turrible , just turrible for quite some time.

The Jets were piss poor for about a 5 year stretch.


There's only one franchise in the NFL I can think of that hasnt had a continued stretch of piss poor seasons and thats Pittsburgh. They may have a bad year but they reload and get right back in it. I dont believe they have ever had three consecutive losing seasons.


Eventually this franchise will have its time in the sun .... who knows when or if anyone will give a shit by that time ..... but at least we havent suffered like the 'Aints fans did for two solid decades.


:bag:

Runner
04-11-2011, 10:20 PM
See this is the thing imo. People always reference these teams who "turn it around" in 1-2 years but i want to see the percentage of those teams who actually stay turned around. It sure as hell would be nice to have made the playoffs this past year or year before...but i wonder how many peoples opinion of kubiak would have changed even he had taken us a few times.....especially if we got smacked ala Jimmy johnson & dolphins vs. the jags in 2000.... or those late game decisions had reared their ugly head in a playoff game.

My point is I could care less if it's kubiak or whomever that takes us there....just get us there......& lets make some noise when we do get there....no token playoff appearances.

Specifically:

...but i wonder how many peoples opinion of kubiak would have changed even he had taken us a few times.....

Many people's opinion of Kubiak would be different if he had taken the Texans to the playoffs even a couple of times. It's not that people don't "like" Kubiak for being Kubiak ----- they don't like his performance as head coach of the Texans. If he had the success of a few playoff appearances, he would be a good head coach and be perceived as such. But he's hasn't and isn't.

In some opinions, including mine, he has not been a successful head coach. That's why he should have been replaced.

A pinnacle of 9-7 doesn't really trigger an orgiastic release of football emotion.

gary
04-13-2011, 01:55 PM
The Texans won't be different untill they have hired a proven HC with a track record otherwise I expect nothing but the same old garbage.

Mr teX
04-13-2011, 02:40 PM
The Texans won't be different untill they have hired a proven HC with a track record otherwise I expect nothing but the same old garbage.

We did that already....& we sucked. Granted we were an expansion team....but he had a "track record" of doing well with expansion teams also so.

Whomever that coach is that takes us on our 1st deep playoff run will be immortalized like Bum Phillips around here...

gary
04-13-2011, 02:45 PM
We did that already....& we sucked. Granted we were an expansion team....but he had a "track record" of doing well with expansion teams also so.

Whomever that coach is that takes us on our 1st deep playoff run will be immortalized like Bum Phillips around here...
We are not a new team anymore and Carr did not help nor did some others so maybe we should try one more time.

Texecutioner
04-13-2011, 02:48 PM
Whomever that coach is that takes us on our 1st deep playoff run will be immortalized like Bum Phillips around here...

Which is huge problem with this fan base.

Second Honeymoon
04-13-2011, 11:03 PM
We did that already....& we sucked. Granted we were an expansion team....but he had a "track record" of doing well with expansion teams also so.

Whomever that coach is that takes us on our 1st deep playoff run will be immortalized like Bum Phillips around here...

Capers was a better HC than Kubiak. Capers was saddled with Carr and an expansion roster. McNair and Casserley screwed the pooch when they drafted an overrated Carr as the face of the franchise. You can't win with crap at QB. It's a scientific fact. And dont bother bringing up The Dilfer Paradox. He was at least serviceable and could read a defense.

Corrosion
04-13-2011, 11:34 PM
Capers was a better HC than Kubiak. Capers was saddled with Carr and an expansion roster. McNair and Casserley screwed the pooch when they drafted an overrated Carr as the face of the franchise. You can't win with crap at QB. It's a scientific fact. And dont bother bringing up The Dilfer Paradox. He was at least serviceable and could read a defense.

When it comes to HHWNBM - I wonder how much the lack of protection did to screw up his development , especially that first year. After that he was Mr Happy Feet ..... :specnatz: ..... Not that I want to turn this into a HHWNBM thread .... Just a passing thought , dont answer the question

The Pencil Neck
04-14-2011, 02:24 AM
When it comes to HHWNBM - I wonder how much the lack of protection did to screw up his development , especially that first year. After that he was Mr Happy Feet ..... :specnatz: ..... Not that I want to turn this into a HHWNBM thread .... Just a passing thought , dont answer the question

It's easy to remember it that way, but it's not true.

If you look at it statistically, it's pretty glaring. He broke during the 2004 season. The first half of that season, he averaged 270 yards per game and 2 games over 300 yards. He had 4 games with a passer rating over 100 and his other games weren't that bad.

The second half of the 2004 season was a totally different story. He had 3 games where he barely squeaked over 200 yards and the rest of the games were worse than that. He averaged 170 yards per game. He didn't have any game with over a 94 passer rating and two games in the 30's. His passer rating average dropped from 94.3 to 72.5.

Something happened in either the Denver game where we got creamed 31-3 or possibly even the Jacksonville game before that where we won. He was never the same after that.

So I don't think it was the sacks he took his first season that broke him.

beerlover
04-14-2011, 03:19 AM
He developed a serious case of broke-back rocky mountain way, hence the Denver...........connection :kubepalm:

gary
04-14-2011, 11:21 AM
Carr was also made a pretty boy when he first came here. With his hair and his father who would come to practice and I heard from Texans sources that daddy Carr wanted to control Carr during practices. His family followed every move David would make I also heard so take that FWIW.

infantrycak
04-14-2011, 11:34 AM
Capers was a better HC than Kubiak.

Not even close as their records clearly reflect. And if we aren't going to look at records he did jack in his area of expertise.

It's easy to remember it that way, but it's not true.

If you look at it statistically, it's pretty glaring. He broke during the 2004 season. The first half of that season, he averaged 270 yards per game and 2 games over 300 yards. He had 4 games with a passer rating over 100 and his other games weren't that bad.

I think that was a braking point but I think it was by Capers and I think it was the Indy game that year. Capers had been letting them throw the ball. Then in Indy HWWNBN threw 3 INT's and no TD's and after that the offense notably shut down. Vinny and I talked about it a few weeks later. Up to that game every game at least 200 yards passing. After Indy it took YAC to sniff 200 yds.

Mr teX
04-14-2011, 11:53 AM
It's easy to remember it that way, but it's not true.

If you look at it statistically, it's pretty glaring. He broke during the 2004 season. The first half of that season, he averaged 270 yards per game and 2 games over 300 yards. He had 4 games with a passer rating over 100 and his other games weren't that bad.

The second half of the 2004 season was a totally different story. He had 3 games where he barely squeaked over 200 yards and the rest of the games were worse than that. He averaged 170 yards per game. He didn't have any game with over a 94 passer rating and two games in the 30's. His passer rating average dropped from 94.3 to 72.5.

Something happened in either the Denver game where we got creamed 31-3 or possibly even the Jacksonville game before that where we won. He was never the same after that.

So I don't think it was the sacks he took his first season that broke him.

Combo of both really with him. I'm sure he never really had it to begin with, but any chance he might've had to develop into at least a serviceable qb got nixed those 1st couple of years with all the sacks he took. I mean c'mon, look who was protecting the guy:

Milford Brown...Zach Wiegert....Chester Pitts....Seth Wand..Steve Mckinney.....Todd Washington..

More than half of these bums' careers immediately ended as soon as they were cut/ released from our roster & that says something if only a part of the story anyway.

HoustonFrog
04-14-2011, 12:26 PM
Let's not have a split Carr talk again. The guy was NEVER going to be a servicable NFL QB. Troy Aikman got pummeled his first year and then when the team and line improved, so do his game. But through all the pummeling he was still an accurate passer who did well...(see Cards game where he threw TD while taking it on the chin). The whole "blame it on the sacks thing" was such a media farce. How about blame half of them on the line and half on Carr having zero pocket presence. That is stuff you either get or you don't. Carr never did and when he went to teams with good O-lines he still sucked. He never got two basic tenets of QBing...throw the ball away and don't stare down WRs. The guy didn't study film, he was an 9am-5pm guy where football wasn't his life and he just wasn't that good. Whenever the transition started once the game got in his head, he was a mess. I mean hell, I can't stand Kubiak but QBs have done well under him and he couldn't even get Carr to thrive in any way...unless you include 5 yard outs.

Mr teX
04-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Let's not have a split Carr talk again. The guy was NEVER going to be a servicable NFL QB. Troy Aikman got pummeled his first year and then when the team and line improved, so do his game. But through all the pummeling he was still an accurate passer who did well...(see Cards game where he threw TD while taking it on the chin). The whole "blame it on the sacks thing" was such a media farce. How about blame half of them on the line and half on Carr having zero pocket presence. That is stuff you either get or you don't. Carr never did and when he went to teams with good O-lines he still sucked. He never got two basic tenets of QBing...throw the ball away and don't stare down WRs. The guy didn't study film, he was an 9am-5pm guy where football wasn't his life and he just wasn't that good. Whenever the transition started once the game got in his head, he was a mess. I mean hell, I can't stand Kubiak but QBs have done well under him and he couldn't even get Carr to thrive in any way...unless you include 5 yard outs.

I don't think anyone's desputing otherwise, it's just acknowledging other factors that played a part in his suckiness is really what i was getting at.

HoustonFrog
04-14-2011, 12:50 PM
I don't think anyone's desputing otherwise, it's just acknowledging other factors that played a part in his suckiness is really what i was getting at.

It wasn't geared towards you specifically, just the debate in general. I thought it was left and settled in the dust and then followed by the Sage debate and now the Gary debate. :)

Corrosion
04-14-2011, 05:02 PM
It wasn't geared towards you specifically, just the debate in general. I thought it was left and settled in the dust and then followed by the Sage debate and now the Gary debate. :)


No one paid attention to the white text that said "Just a passing thought , dont answer the question".

The Pencil Neck
04-14-2011, 06:27 PM
No one paid attention to the white text that said "Just a passing thought , dont answer the question".

Dude. You don't say something like that and expect people not to answer. That's like going into a religious forum and going on an expletive filled rant accusing Jesus and Mary of all sorts of horrible things and then ending with "oh nevermind, please don't respond."

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

Corrosion
04-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Dude. You don't say something like that and expect people not to answer. That's like going into a religious forum and going on an expletive filled rant accusing Jesus and Mary of all sorts of horrible things and then ending with "oh nevermind, please don't respond."

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

I know .... I just thought it kinda funny.


Enough of HHWNBM , lets talk more about firing Kubiak

Thorn
04-14-2011, 09:23 PM
At this point I'd just as soon fire Goodell as Kubiak.

Did I just say that?


:kubepalm:

HOU-TEX
04-15-2011, 09:42 AM
I bet the cheerleaders and cameramen's heads were on swivels every time the Texans had the ball while Carr was here.

HoustonFrog
04-15-2011, 10:12 AM
No one paid attention to the white text that said "Just a passing thought , dont answer the question".

Corrosion I didn't even know you started it. I just saw Carr debate and had flashbacks and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from 2006 or so when I used to talk about how I couldn't stand him.

MightyTExan
04-15-2011, 01:50 PM
LOL, Kubiak had an interview on the draft and no one seems to care (me included). 1 response on the main board, lulz.
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/04/12/coach-kubiak-talks-with-the-odd-couple/

HOU-TEX
04-15-2011, 02:16 PM
LOL, Kubiak had an interview on the draft and no one seems to care (me included). 1 response on the main board, lulz.
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/04/12/coach-kubiak-talks-with-the-odd-couple/

Due to all the CBA crap, I think the draft as a whole will take a big hit this year, no matter the team or coach. I reckon much of the 'less' hard core fans won't be tuning in as much as in the past.

Goodell is going to take an absolute beating from the fans at the draft as soon as he comes up to the poduim. He'd be better off allowing some gumby to do it. Ha

Texecutioner
04-15-2011, 07:36 PM
Due to all the CBA crap, I think the draft as a whole will take a big hit this year, no matter the team or coach. I reckon much of the 'less' hard core fans won't be tuning in as much as in the past.

Goodell is going to take an absolute beating from the fans at the draft as soon as he comes up to the poduim. He'd be better off allowing some gumby to do it. Ha

The NFL draft was already ruined for me last season with that whole several day on prime time bullshit they started.I made sure that my tv was barely ever on so I wouldn't contribute to ratings. I've always loved the all day Saturday thing.

Texanmike02
04-15-2011, 09:09 PM
manage the team and the game on both sides of the ball

I know I've said it before but according to ND Kalu Andy Reid didn't even talk to the defense the year they went to the SB. In fact he said he was there 6 years and he only saw Reid on that side of the practice facility a hand full of times.

Mike

Lucky
04-15-2011, 10:11 PM
I know I've said it before but according to ND Kalu Andy Reid didn't even talk to the defense the year they went to the SB. In fact he said he was there 6 years and he only saw Reid on that side of the practice facility a hand full of times.
That's because Reid knew he had someone competent (Jim Johnson) on that side of the ball.

Here's what has bothered me about Kubiak (among many other things). Kubiak sees this defense every day in practice, going against the offense. As an offensive "genius", shouldn't he have realized that he had a defense that was crap? Scheme-wise, technique-wise, talent-wise. Kubiak had to know that the defense was bad? Right? Couldn't he look at the game tape and see the problems?

Nope. Every week after a loss, Kubiak was dumbfounded as to why the defense wasn't getting it done. His answer? "Frank is doing a heck of a job". Clueless. How is it possible to know so much about offense (supposedly) and be that ignorant of defense?

But I'm a hater, so what do I know...

Rey
04-15-2011, 10:29 PM
That's because Reid knew he had someone competent (Jim Johnson) on that side of the ball.

Here's what has bothered me about Kubiak (among many other things). Kubiak sees this defense every day in practice, going against the offense. As an offensive "genius", shouldn't he have realized that he had a defense that was crap? Scheme-wise, technique-wise, talent-wise. Kubiak had to know that the defense was bad? Right? Couldn't he look at the game tape and see the problems?

Nope. Every week after a loss, Kubiak was dumbfounded as to why the defense wasn't getting it done. His answer? "Frank is doing a heck of a job". Clueless. How is it possible to know so much about offense (supposedly) and be that ignorant of defense?

But I'm a hater, so what do I know...

I don't think Kubiak is a genius of any sorts (I know you weren't calling him one).
His offenses have been good, not great.

But the thing is, in practice it's a little harder to tell what's what...Guys are so used to going against each other that it's hard to tell how good everyone really is. Then you add the fact that you have "practice squad heroes" and it really gets hard to tell. Everyone isn't going game speed in all of the drills.

In camp it should be a little easier to tell what individuals are good, but you still don't know how they will be as a unit because it's so early.

I've been out to multiple Texans practices (as I'm sure a lot of people have) and guys rarely look as bad as they do when the real games start...i.e Kareem Jackson. Now way he looked as bad in practice as he did in the games this past year.

If you think about it, they don't really go all out at practice that often. I don't think they do much full speed/full contact stuff during the season....So really the best time to evaluate is in scrimmages against other teams and pre-season...

My problem with Kubiak is that he's slow reacting. I think he has gotten a bit better at it, but his track record has been poor in that area. I can't fault him for the first year or two of not knowing exactly what was what on defense...But after that he should have been more pro-active in fixing problems because he has so much time to evaluate them...By year three he had two seasons worth of games to go off of...forget practice...

GP
04-15-2011, 10:31 PM
That's because Reid knew he had someone competent (Jim Johnson) on that side of the ball.

Here's what has bothered me about Kubiak (among many other things). Kubiak sees this defense every day in practice, going against the offense. As an offensive "genius", shouldn't he have realized that he had a defense that was crap? Scheme-wise, technique-wise, talent-wise. Kubiak had to know that the defense was bad? Right? Couldn't he look at the game tape and see the problems?

Nope. Every week after a loss, Kubiak was dumbfounded as to why the defense wasn't getting it done. His answer? "Frank is doing a heck of a job". Clueless. How is it possible to know so much about offense (supposedly) and be that ignorant of defense?

But I'm a hater, so what do I know...

I have always said that Gary Kubiak likes being the smartest man in the room. No challengers to the throne, so to speak. He'll "talk up" the Shanny Jr.'s and the Frank Bush's of the NFL world because he knows that he needs lesser people around him in order to solidify McNair's dependency upon him (Kubiak). It's the old trick of surrounding yourself with lesser people so that you look taller and more majestic when compared to them.

And then along came Wade Phillips....

Wade is the litmus test, IMO. It's either going to be that Gary could screw up a peanut butter sandwich OR Gary finally had the problem of a bad defense solved and it did the trick. Wade Phillips is a legitimate "NFL man" the likes of which hasn't been alongside Kubiak since maybe Mike Sherman. Ray Rhodes is iffy because of the medical situation that cuts him out of the equation in terms of the amount of "reach" he has on the team. All in all, the defensive staff has been just as pedestrian as the secondary players getting drafted and shoved out onto the field.

I trust nothing that any of the Texans personnel says about the defense. It's so far behind the 8-ball it's not even funny. It's as woeful as that last season of offense led by David Carr; just unbearable to watch on Sunday. If Wade Phillips turns it around, he deserves a key to the city.

Maddict5
04-16-2011, 06:50 AM
I have always said that Gary Kubiak likes being the smartest man in the room. No challengers to the throne, so to speak. He'll "talk up" the Shanny Jr.'s and the Frank Bush's of the NFL world because he knows that he needs lesser people around him in order to solidify McNair's dependency upon him (Kubiak). It's the old trick of surrounding yourself with lesser people so that you look taller and more majestic when compared to them.

And then along came Wade Phillips....

Wade is the litmus test, IMO.

where do mike sherman & alex gibbs fit into this theory?

infantrycak
04-16-2011, 11:49 AM
where do mike sherman & alex gibbs fit into this theory?

They don't. Neither does Phillips.

thunderkyss
04-17-2011, 10:49 AM
Capers was a better HC than Kubiak. Capers was saddled with Carr and an expansion roster. McNair and Casserley screwed the pooch when they drafted an overrated Carr as the face of the franchise. You can't win with crap at QB. It's a scientific fact. And dont bother bringing up The Dilfer Paradox. He was at least serviceable and could read a defense.

Let's not forget Dan Reeves. He was supposed to have the experience & football knowledge to be able to tell McNair if it were a talent problem (GM) or a scheming problem (HC).

Just imagine if McNair knew what was what, fired Casserly & hired Ted Thompson in 2005. OF course that would have been after our 7-9 season and wouldn't have made much sense.

thunderkyss
04-17-2011, 11:10 AM
That's because Reid knew he had someone competent (Jim Johnson) on that side of the ball.

Here's what has bothered me about Kubiak (among many other things). Kubiak sees this defense every day in practice, going against the offense. As an offensive "genius", shouldn't he have realized that he had a defense that was crap? Scheme-wise, technique-wise, talent-wise. Kubiak had to know that the defense was bad? Right? Couldn't he look at the game tape and see the problems?

Nope. Every week after a loss, Kubiak was dumbfounded as to why the defense wasn't getting it done. His answer? "Frank is doing a heck of a job". Clueless. How is it possible to know so much about offense (supposedly) and be that ignorant of defense?

But I'm a hater, so what do I know...

Really good question.

I guess during practice, it is clearly understood what is supposed to happen, and what everyone is supposed to do.

On game day, they have to make their reads pre-snap & figure out what is most likely going to happen. For our safeties to be out of position so much, I'm betting no one on the field had a clue.

I blame it on poor preparation, poor instruction from the coach.

Lucky
04-17-2011, 11:30 AM
Just imagine if McNair knew what was what, fired Casserly & hired Ted Thompson in 2005.
Thompson took the the Packers GM job in 2005 and immediately cut 3 starters off their division winning 10-6 squad. Then he took Aaron Rodgers in the 1st round, with Favre still on the team. The Packers went 4-12 in 2005, with Packers fans (and Favre behind the scenes) calling for Thompson's head.

The Rodgers pick in hindsight looks like a luxury pick. But, Favre was hinting at retirement after every offseason. The Packers felt that one day, he would be serious. Rodgers was obviously a "best player available" type pick. But a need pick, as well.

Lucky
04-17-2011, 11:33 AM
They don't. Neither does Phillips.
Do you really think Kubiak had any say in the Wade Phillips hiring? I don't believe in GP's "Smartest Guy in the Room" theory. But, I do believe that Kubiak wouldn't know a good DC if he saw one. I do know he's never gone out and selected a good DC, on his own.

SteveSlaton20
04-17-2011, 12:56 PM
Guys I would rank lower than Kubiak:

AFC West - the Broncos guy (can't recall his name). He screwed up the Cutler situation, IMO. He screwed up the Brandon Marshall situation, IMO. He's an arrogant ass, IMO. He took Tebow in the first round. He has had awful seasons both years. Chiefs, Chargers, and Raiders (Cable) all rank ahead of Kubiak, IMO.

NFC South - you could argue John Fox, I guess, but in all honesty, I'd take him with our personnel over Kubiak and the Panthers' personnel. I think they're about equal, actually. John Fox:offense::Kubiak:defense. Bucs, Saints, and Falcons are a very strong trio of coaches.

NFC North - Childress is just awful.
Kubiak is in the bottom quarter of coaches, I reckon.

3 of those guys are even coaching those teams anymore.
Josh McDaniels is OC for St Louis Rams
John Fox is HC for Denver Broncos, but he's been to the SB before.
Brad Childress is awful yes, but he's not a coach anymore. And went to 3 playoffs game, should've been in the SB if it wasn't for Brett Favre stupid Interception.

infantrycak
04-17-2011, 08:18 PM
Do you really think Kubiak had any say in the Wade Phillips hiring? I don't believe in GP's "Smartest Guy in the Room" theory. But, I do believe that Kubiak wouldn't know a good DC if he saw one. I do know he's never gone out and selected a good DC, on his own.

Never claimed Kubiak was good at hiring DC's. Clearly he hasn't been so far. But he has hired folks with better resumes than his own.

Double Barrel
04-18-2011, 11:44 AM
where do mike sherman & alex gibbs fit into this theory?

I don't know about GP's theories, but these guys were never a threat to Kubiak to take his job as HC. Gary has never had someone on staff that 'threatened' his position, iirc.

Wade changes all of that. If Gary fails, I have very little doubt that Wade would take the job in a heartbeat. Wade has a solid resume, and one that I'm sure Mr. McNair has read.

Corrosion
04-18-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't know about GP's theories, but these guys were never a threat to Kubiak to take his job as HC. Gary has never had someone on staff that 'threatened' his position, iirc.

Wade changes all of that. If Gary fails, I have very little doubt that Wade would take the job in a heartbeat. Wade has a solid resume, and one that I'm sure Mr. McNair has read.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww49/texanbrando/Muttley-Animated.gif

I wonder if Wade would keep Gary on as OC in the event he took over as HC ..... :wadepalm:

Double Barrel
04-18-2011, 01:52 PM
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww49/texanbrando/Muttley-Animated.gif

I wonder if Wade would keep Gary on as OC in the event he took over as HC ..... :wadepalm:

Very unlikely in the big NFL picture (i.e. history), but if it ever could happen, I wouldn't doubt that these niiiiiice coaches and niiiiiice owner would pull it off. :winky:

It sure would be a nice change for the forum to be bitching about our yearly one-and-done in the playoffs instead of when the heck will we ever get to the playoffs! hehe

Corrosion
04-18-2011, 02:38 PM
Very unlikely in the big NFL picture (i.e. history), but if it ever could happen, I wouldn't doubt that these niiiiiice coaches and niiiiiice owner would pull it off. :winky:

It sure would be a nice change for the forum to be bitching about our yearly one-and-done in the playoffs instead of when the heck will we ever get to the playoffs! hehe

I was being more sarcastic than anything ..... but yeah , I could see Bob and Wade doing just that. They could do much worse.

Double Barrel
04-18-2011, 04:24 PM
I was being more sarcastic than anything ..... but yeah , I could see Bob and Wade doing just that. They could do much worse.

yep, figured on the sarcasm and was just adding my own. If I don't laugh at it all I'll go crazy. :crazy:

Ole Miss Texan
04-18-2011, 04:37 PM
I was being more sarcastic than anything ..... but yeah , I could see Bob and Wade doing just that. They could do much worse.

LOL, I actually never thought of that. Brilliant!

If I were Bob I would go ahead and make Gary the OC, Wade the DC and then hire Cowher. Cowher would let Gary and Wade run their respective squads but I would have Bill there just to walk along the sidelines looking pissed and scaring the living daylights out of the players. I'd also have Bill send all the players to Detroit in the offseason to live and work out and get tough... then they come back and have Bill yell at them during practice. I would pay the three handsomly for their contributions too.

Corrosion
04-18-2011, 06:39 PM
LOL, I actually never thought of that. Brilliant!

If I were Bob I would go ahead and make Gary the OC, Wade the DC and then hire Cowher. Cowher would let Gary and Wade run their respective squads but I would have Bill there just to walk along the sidelines looking pissed and scaring the living daylights out of the players. I'd also have Bill send all the players to Detroit in the offseason to live and work out and get tough... then they come back and have Bill yell at them during practice. I would pay the three handsomly for their contributions too.


I could handle that , Cowher HC , Wade DC and Kubiak OC .... but why send them to Detroit ? Its not like the Lions are tough .... well accept for tough luck.


I'd send them to work out in altitude ..... with MMA guy's.
Might do the interior linemen some good to learn about leverage .

thunderkyss
04-18-2011, 08:43 PM
Never claimed Kubiak was good at hiring DC's. Clearly he hasn't been so far. But he has hired folks with better resumes than his own.

Not only that, but he's deferred so much control to other people it's ridiculous to buy into "the smartest guy in the room" theory.

Alex Gibbs, Mike Sherman, even Ray Rhodes, Richard Smith & Frank Bush.

Disclaimer: AFAIConcerned, Kubiak's a piece of shit that should have been rode out of Houston. I just don't buy into the "smartest guy in the room theory"

nut
04-19-2011, 11:27 PM
What difference does it make that Kool-Aid drinkers are saying that Kubiak is better than the lowest 2 or 3 coaches that have jobs in the league? He still stinks as a coach and so do the comparisons. How is that a recommendation for continued employment? Most of the supporters are probably aggys that just love to have him in the job irregardless of his performance.

Corrosion
04-21-2011, 12:12 AM
What difference does it make that Kool-Aid drinkers are saying that Kubiak is better than the lowest 2 or 3 coaches that have jobs in the league? He still stinks as a coach and so do the comparisons. How is that a recommendation for continued employment? Most of the supporters are probably aggys that just love to have him in the job irregardless of his performance.

Not hardly .....



http://www.southofthered.net/ProductImages/stockdale/UT_Bevo_cartoon_decal.gif