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View Full Version : Taking a 3-4 DE @ 11?


Maddict5
04-03-2011, 05:20 PM
I was just wondering what everyone thinks the chances of us deviating from the original plan (playing mario at DE & drafting a de/olb) & taking someone like Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt @ 11 and moving mario to OLB if the nightmare scenario of prince, quinn etc being gone at 11...

do you reach for projects/raw athletes olb's like aldon smith or do you just move mario. he did some dropping into coverage in zone blitzes the last few yrs and, while not being fluid & natural, did the job and because of his size, got his hands to a few balls. plus he'd be rushing most of the time anyway from that spot...

it just seems like if the drafts falls a certain, pretty realistic way (i.e. teams not buying into the mediocre overhyped qbs as top 10 picks), we'll be stuck reaching for an olb like justin houston/kerrigan/clayborn who's just a stiff as mario in coverage (if not moreso in some cases) when the value would be to take a 5 tech like those two guys

ArlingtonTexan
04-03-2011, 05:59 PM
I don't think Mario moves to OLB, period. In terms of the first round, the Texans really seem to go need versus BPA (this flips in round 3/4, imo). I think it more likely that they "reach" for a guy and force him into the line-up than start moving around veterans to fit a rookie. It is not like they don't need a 3-4 end for depth, but drafting one would lead to at least in the first year a limited role for a team that need immediate impact. BTW, this is more of what I think will happen than what I would or think that the should do.

I hope by some miracle that there is some version of CBA, so that maybe one or two of the desparate needs (OLB, FS, CB) are not so draft dependant.

Lucky
04-03-2011, 08:56 PM
Forget the 3-4 switch for a moment. The Texans need a pass rusher. Or pass rushers. Mario can't do it alone (and when he's hurt he can't do it, either). Smithiak has tried Okoye (didn't work) and then Barwin (jury's still out). I really thought the FA money to get Antonio Smith should have been spent on a pass rushing RDE, with Mario moving to the left side. But Smithiak disagreed.

So here the Texans sit heading into their 10th season, with one of the weakest pass rushes in the league. Still. Wade Phillips is supposed to fix the problem (along with other problems). How is Son of Bum supposed to do this without giving him the tools? Considering Barwin's injury, and the too quick decision to move Cushing inside, it would be a smart move for the Texans to take two pass rushers in the 1st 3 picks. That's if Boss McNair reaches into his deep pockets and signs a CB or 2.

Drafting a(nother) 5 technique is a luxury pick. For a team that can't afford luxury. And I'm not convinced at all that Jordan or Watts will be better pros than Aldon Smith or Justin Houston. I know their talent isn't close to Robert Quinn's. I don't think either of these guys go off the board before #17 or #18, and it would be in the Texans favor if someone in the top 10 went for them.

steelbtexan
04-03-2011, 09:37 PM
Forget the 3-4 switch for a moment. The Texans need a pass rusher. Or pass rushers. Mario can't do it alone (and when he's hurt he can't do it, either). Smithiak has tried Okoye (didn't work) and then Barwin (jury's still out). I really thought the FA money to get Antonio Smith should have been spent on a pass rushing RDE, with Mario moving to the left side. But Smithiak disagreed.

So here the Texans sit heading into their 10th season, with one of the weakest pass rushes in the league. Still. Wade Phillips is supposed to fix the problem (along with other problems). How is Son of Bum supposed to do this without giving him the tools? Considering Barwin's injury, and the too quick decision to move Cushing inside, it would be a smart move for the Texans to take two pass rushers in the 1st 3 picks. That's if Boss McNair reaches into his deep pockets and signs a CB or 2.

Drafting a(nother) 5 technique is a luxury pick. For a team that can't afford luxury. And I'm not convinced at all that Jordan or Watts will be better pros than Aldon Smith or Justin Houston. I know their talent isn't close to Robert Quinn's. I don't think either of these guys go off the board before #17 or #18, and it would be in the Texans favor if someone in the top 10 went for them.

I'm with you on drafting 2 pass rushing OLB's. Houston has better measurables than Quin. He ran a 4.57 (Faster than Quinn) at 267 lbs. Houston also plaed in a 3-4 last yr (no transition period) and had 10 sacks.

Houston is a better fit for the Texans. Because he can make an impact right away. There will be good 5 techs in the 5th rd range. (Carter/Bair/Klug)

Wolf6151
04-03-2011, 10:13 PM
While I would like Prince Amukamara or Robert Quinn in the 1st round filling a hole, the selection of a 3-4 DE like Watt or Jordan would be insurance against losing Mario next year. Mario will be a FA at the end of next season and he'll command big money that I'm not sure he deserves. IMO, Mario disappears in far to many games, only dominates against the lower level LT's, has a very limited repertoire of pass rushing moves, and is injured far to often to be worth re-signing to a huge money FA contract. Mario just doesn't dominate a game the way many expect a #1 overall pick to do. The selection of Watt or Jordan would give us insurance against the loss of Mario or against the fact that he might just really suck in a 3-4 system. Actually I would advocate trading Mario now, if there were a CBA, before the draft for a boatload of draft picks or young talented FA's to kick start the rebuilding of the defense. I agree with SBT that finding a decent 3-4 DE can be done later in the draft.

The Pencil Neck
04-03-2011, 10:20 PM
I agree with Lucky and SteelB on this.

I don't see any way or reason to take a 3-4 DE early in this draft. There will be some guys we can take later in the draft who could be added to the rotation and eventually develop into good DEs.

I'm also not a big fan of taking a corner in the first round unless, through some miracle, Peterson falls to us.

We can't trust that any of the players we've got can really play rush LB. We have a few that might, but there's no way to be sure.

We need to draft at least one and probably two. And we need to draft a safety. And possibly an ILB, too. Just in case. If it turns out that we've got too many good linebackers, great. We can deal with that.

But we have to fix that pass rush.

beerlover
04-03-2011, 10:22 PM
Drafting a(nother) 5 technique is a luxury pick. For a team that can't afford luxury. And I'm not convinced at all that Jordan or Watts will be better pros than Aldon Smith or Justin Houston. I know their talent isn't close to Robert Quinn's. I don't think either of these guys go off the board before #17 or #18, and it would be in the Texans favor if someone in the top 10 went for them.

Here you go again, 5 tech DE is not a luxury pick. People are premature to project the Texans are set with Mario & Smith who have never played in a 3-4 straight up. For Mario is going to be more physical taking on big nasty guards/tackle combinations instead of TE/OT. Antoino is a little undersized & may be at risk injury wise. So depth is also a consideration over the course of a long season, especially one with playoff aspirations. It is very much a need to have a top end rotation up front to stay fresh, keep healthy & apply relentless pressure regardless of injury status. Antonio Smith is entering his 8th season while Mario, believe it or not is going on his 6th year in the NFL neither is getting any younger. Where is the future, the new 3-4 foundation piece? I'll tell you its in a player like Watt or Jordan (presently have discussions behind closed doors on this very subject in our war room). Not only will it help OLB position by creating lanes/locking up two defenders, along with viable NT, create some inside pass pressure too.

You fail in the draft when you pass on best talent available, year after year this approach will leave your team talent defcient, as they become just average players. And how many more good years does Andre have? this will be his 9th season, so why not take a complimentry playmaking WR of the future like Julio Jones? your going to tell me because Texans need OLB they should take one (Houston or Kerrigan) regardless over Jones, Watt or Jordan? I just hope Rick Smith gets better advise from Wade & the Texans draft board reflects not just needs now but in the future as well. :devilpig:

The Pencil Neck
04-03-2011, 10:22 PM
While I would like Prince Amukamara or Robert Quinn in the 1st round filling a hole, the selection of a 3-4 DE like Watt or Jordan would be insurance against losing Mario next year. <snip> I agree with SBT that finding a decent 3-4 DE can be done later in the draft.

I don't think that our 1st round pick should be "insurance". We're not good enough on the defensive side to draft insurance. We have to draft immediate starters that upgrade positions.

Lucky
04-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Mario will be a FA at the end of next season

That's true. And even if the Texans decide that Mario is no longer a fit for their defense, they aren't going to let him walk without compensation. He will be franchised and the Texans would hopefully get a fair price. And the $$$ not spent on Williams could be used on a replacement. But, why assume that will be the case? That's not what Wade Phillips said when he took the job as DC. There's no reason to throw a high draft choice at a problem that may not exist. Especially when there are so many known problems.
Here you go again, 5 tech DE is not a luxury pick. People are premature to project the Texans are set with Mario & Smith who have never played in a 3-4 straight up.
Watt and Jordan have never played in a NFL 3-4. Or even in the NFL. So you're trying to fix a problem that may not exist with players whose abilities are unknown?

I realize the Texans may have to do that at 3-4 OLB, because the FA market is thin. It is what it is. The Texans are hemorraging at the position. AJ is the best WR in the league and just signed a long term extension. Mario is the most talented player on the Texan defense. But these are the guys you're concerned with replacing?

Finally, I don't see Watt, Jordan, or even Julio Jones as elite prospects that are head and shoulders above the OLBs we are discussing. I don't see a truly elite prospect in this draft. There's no Calvin Johnson, no Ndamukong Suh, no Adrian Peterson. Patrick Peterson may be close, but he's a better athlete than player at this point. The guy the Texans take at #11 could become the best player in this draft. To suggest that the Texans would be reaching for someone not named Watt, Jordan, or Jones is laughable.

beerlover
04-03-2011, 11:15 PM
I don't think that our 1st round pick should be "insurance". We're not good enough on the defensive side to draft insurance. We have to draft immediate starters that upgrade positions.

you mean immediate starter like Kareem Jackson? don't you think it would have been wise to develop his progress in a more measured, calculated fashion as oppossed to throwing him out there right away because he was Texan first pick? Pretty clear to me franchising Dunta Robinson one more year to mentor Kareem the ways of the NFL would actually improve his skill set not to mention his confidence going forward.

there is also no doubt that Watt or Jordan would benifit from similar treatment with Antono/Williams. actually however, Cam has three years experience already playing in a 3-4 so he may be the one doing the teaching (teasing of course).

beerlover
04-03-2011, 11:17 PM
Finally, I don't see Watt, Jordan, or even Julio Jones as elite prospects that are head and shoulders above the OLBs we are discussing. I don't see a truly elite prospect in this draft. There's no Calvin Johnson, no Ndamukong Suh, no Adrian Peterson. Patrick Peterson may be close, but he's a better athlete than player at this point. The guy the Texans take at #11 could become the best player in this draft. To suggest that the Texans would be reaching for someone not named Watt, Jordan, or Jones is laughable.

This does not surprise me at all, our draft boards are worlds apart then & your cliche laughable response is getting old & tired.

Lucky
04-03-2011, 11:27 PM
You fail in the draft when you pass on best talent available, year after year this approach will leave your team talent defcient, as they become just average players.

This does not surprise me at all, our draft boards are worlds apart then & your cliche laughable response is getting old & tired.
On whose draft board (other than yours) is Watt, Jordan, & Jones ranked that much higher than Aldon Smith or Kerrigan? Who else besides yourself sees that as a reach?

beerlover
04-04-2011, 04:01 AM
draft boards are fluid & constantly changing. Generally speaking Julio Jones is considered a Top 10 talent. John Harris ranks him #9 Corey Chavous of Draft Nasty ranks Julio #5 & Cameron Jordan #8. Harris really likes Aldon more than anyone I've seen which is fine #11 overall but most have him later like Chavous #17. Harris has Houston #20 while Chavous ranks him #65 but then he doesn't like Watt much either #84.

It's a question of who you believe, who you follow then do you know your shit enough to make your own grade, which I do, yes, thank you very much. Mid-way through the season for example I had targeted Kerrigan around 20 because this is about where I expected the Texans selection to be & I love his hustle & high motor. But in the end does he move up, 8-9 spots because he is the player I originally wanted? Well if he grades out that high then yes but he doesn't. To confuse matters more other prospects come into the picture like a Brooks Reed, so separate those two then grade them out. Brooks has played @ 3-4 OLB looks like the second coming of Clay Matthews so is he now higher rated, at least for a team like the Texans looking to address OLB? Probably yes, cause you know he can do it already, as opposed to playing a 4-3 DE. All the measueables check out he even runs better numbers than Kerrigan & kills the drills. Fair or unfair these things affect a players grade, new items come to light, rumor mill spins & draft boards remain fluid.

Back to Maddict5 the answer is yes, IMO with the probability very high its defensive front 7 prospect.

El Tejano
04-04-2011, 09:37 AM
I repeat that if Julio Jones is available and the above mentioned players are off the board, we go ahead and grab Julio Jones. He's too good of an offensive talent and on offense we can afford a luxury pick like him. Andre gets hurt every year now. I want to be able to not have to gamble on him when that ankle goes bad again. I also feel we are going to have to outscore opponents while our d adjust to the new scheme. We can get Julio Jones.

Ole Miss Texan
04-04-2011, 10:01 AM
I'd been very pleased with JJ Watt or Cameron Jordan. I think people are missing the big picture and Wade's ability to get the best players involved and in the best position to succeed.

I think most "experts" draft boards out there have Watt, Jordan and Julio all rated higher than Aldon Smith or Akeem Ayers or Ryan Kerrigan. With that said, I don't really care what they think... it's up to the Texans draft board and our specific needs, wants and projections.

I'm more convinced Mario will do well with Wade than others. I'm also not as "excited" about Antonio Smith being the other DE that everyone is writing him in as. What makes you think he's going to be the guy we need there? Why? I think he'll be a solid player but not any better than he is as a 4-3DE.

In pass rushing situations, it sounds like we'll be using a 4-3 defense, with Antonio moving inside to DT. I suspect Earl Mitchell will get plenty of playing time at the other DT spot. I would have JJ Watt as a DE and Mario as a DE and then move Connor Barwin or Rookie OLB up to the line as a Joker kind of role - something Clay Matthews does so well. You even have Cushing at LB who I think Wade will sneak in there with Barwin dropping back in coverage.

I don't like Mario moving to OLB at all. I think from a pure x's and o's standpoint that he'll technically be called an OLB during certain play calls but I don't think his role would be that of a typical OLB.

Again, I'd love JJ Watt at #11.

Mr teX
04-04-2011, 10:07 AM
I'd been very pleased with JJ Watt or Cameron Jordan. I think people are missing the big picture and Wade's ability to get the best players involved and in the best position to succeed.

I think most "experts" draft boards out there have Watt, Jordan and Julio all rated higher than Aldon Smith or Akeem Ayers or Ryan Kerrigan. With that said, I don't really care what they think... it's up to the Texans draft board and our specific needs, wants and projections.

I'm more convinced Mario will do well with Wade than others. I'm also not as "excited" about Antonio Smith being the other DE that everyone is writing him in as. What makes you think he's going to be the guy we need there? Why? I think he'll be a solid player but not any better than he is as a 4-3DE.

In pass rushing situations, it sounds like we'll be using a 4-3 defense, with Antonio moving inside to DT. I suspect Earl Mitchell will get plenty of playing time at the other DT spot. I would have JJ Watt as a DE and Mario as a DE and then move Connor Barwin or Rookie OLB up to the line as a Joker kind of role - something Clay Matthews does so well. You even have Cushing at LB who I think Wade will sneak in there with Barwin dropping back in coverage.

I don't like Mario moving to OLB at all. I think from a pure x's and o's standpoint that he'll technically be called an OLB during certain play calls but I don't think his role would be that of a typical OLB.

Again, I'd love JJ Watt at #11.

Don't like Watt, Didn't like how he moved..

infantrycak
04-04-2011, 10:13 AM
I see 0% chance Mario moves to OLB and virtually no chance the Texans go DE in the 1st round.

Second Honeymoon
04-04-2011, 10:24 AM
Agree with icak. Mario is our DE.

I could see them drafting Quinn, if he is around, but he is OLB. That is the guy we need IMHO. I just don't think he will fall that far.

TexCanada
04-04-2011, 10:35 AM
Its looking more and more like a trade back is our best scenario. I don't know if there will be any interest in acquiring the 11 pick though.

The Pencil Neck
04-04-2011, 11:34 AM
you mean immediate starter like Kareem Jackson? don't you think it would have been wise to develop his progress in a more measured, calculated fashion as oppossed to throwing him out there right away because he was Texan first pick? Pretty clear to me franchising Dunta Robinson one more year to mentor Kareem the ways of the NFL would actually improve his skill set not to mention his confidence going forward.

there is also no doubt that Watt or Jordan would benifit from similar treatment with Antono/Williams. actually however, Cam has three years experience already playing in a 3-4 so he may be the one doing the teaching (teasing of course).

The fact that Kareem Jackson didn't perform as well as they thought he would is a totally different issue. They picked him thinking he was the most NFL ready CB at that point in the draft. They picked him expecting him to be able to step in and play.

You don't put someone on the field because they were the first pick. When you're in our position, you pick someone in the first expecting them to make an immediate contribution to the team. You pick someone in the first who's going to start because they're better at that spot than anyone else on the team OR they will be after a few starts to gain some experience.

In our position, you don't pick a player that's going to take a few years to develop and if you do, then that pick was a failure.

The Pencil Neck
04-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Its looking more and more like a trade back is our best scenario. I don't know if there will be any interest in acquiring the 11 pick though.

Especially since you can't trade any players.

Mr teX
04-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Agree with icak. Mario is our DE.

I could see them drafting Quinn, if he is around, but he is OLB. That is the guy we need IMHO. I just don't think he will fall that far.

See, i really wanted this guy, but then i heard something on 610 that he's got a benign tumor in his head...does anyone know of this & do you look differently at this guy b/c of it?

ArlingtonTexan
04-04-2011, 12:19 PM
Its looking more and more like a trade back is our best scenario. I don't know if there will be any interest in acquiring the 11 pick though.

This draft sets up as one of the most unprdectable in quite awhile. The surest things are at CB and WR with a ton of defensive linemen who for the most part have obviously flaws. The top 3 to 4 QBs are more hit or miss than normal.

beerlover
04-04-2011, 12:39 PM
This draft sets up as one of the most unprdectable in quite awhile. The surest things are at CB and WR with a ton of defensive linemen who for the most part have obviously flaws. The top 3 to 4 QBs are more hit or miss than normal.

I agree with this. Here is ourlads top 32 http://www.ourlads.com/top32/?id=471297

El Tejano
04-04-2011, 12:55 PM
For some reason Watt reminds me of Jeff Alm of the Houston Oilers (without all the controversial death of course.)

TexCanada
04-04-2011, 01:16 PM
The more mock drafts I look at, the more likely it seems that Quinn could very well drop to us. I've also been thinking that if Quinn is gone, I would still be very happy with taking Aldon Smith at #11. Most "experts" seem to agree that he is a top 15 pick, so taking him a 11 really isn't much of a reach.

rmartin65
04-04-2011, 01:20 PM
I like the idea of DE at 11. Jordan and Watt are fantastic players, and when coupled with Mario, the Texans wont have to look DE for years.

Of course, I am a firm believer in BPA (as long as it makes sense), so this should come as no surprise. We by no means are strong at the DE position, and thus, can justify spending a pick there.

The1ApplePie
04-04-2011, 01:54 PM
Bowers may be there for all we know.

No idea if he can play OLB but the kid is a monster pass rusher

powda
04-04-2011, 04:14 PM
you mean immediate starter like Kareem Jackson? don't you think it would have been wise to develop his progress in a more measured, calculated fashion as oppossed to throwing him out there right away because he was Texan first pick? Pretty clear to me franchising Dunta Robinson one more year to mentor Kareem the ways of the NFL would actually improve his skill set not to mention his confidence going forward.


I cant agree with resignng "pay me rick" after he was #1 disgruntled, #2 comming off injury, #3 expecting a 50 something million dollar contract.

lots of folks in Atlanta agree with his value being far less then 50 whatever million. If thats what we needed to pay to retain him...good bye. You over value the "mentor" role. These guys are competing for checks at the end of the day.

I dont get how people hold Kareem Jackson's failures against selecting a cornerback in the first round. What does Amukamara or anyone else have to do with Frank Bush, Worthless safety's, a limited pass rush, and a questionable scheme from the 2010 season? By highlighting Jackson's failures you are arguing for the need to add more talent rookie or otherwise.

I'd be willing to listen to the argument for a nose tackle. This buisnes about selecting a 3-4 DE in the first is counterproductive. Why would you draft a player who has no chance to start immediately? Is Jordan or Watt gonna take playing time from Antonio Smith or Mario Williams? Wouldnt you rather your rookie take playing time from somewhere else?

If your considering a 3-4 DE its because you've become infatuated with a player. You should try listing the opening day starters as of right now. Thats the reality check you need.

Ole Miss Texan
04-04-2011, 05:29 PM
I'd be willing to listen to the argument for a nose tackle. This buisnes about selecting a 3-4 DE in the first is counterproductive. Why would you draft a player who has no chance to start immediately? Is Jordan or Watt gonna take playing time from Antonio Smith or Mario Williams? Wouldnt you rather your rookie take playing time from somewhere else?

If your considering a 3-4 DE its because you've become infatuated with a player. You should try listing the opening day starters as of right now. Thats the reality check you need.
With any position I never view it as Starter or Back Up... but rather the number of snaps one would receive. I think a DE like Watt/Jordan could potentially have more snaps, and thus more potential impact, than an OLB like Smith/Kerrigan/Houston.

On passing downs, Smith will move inside to DT. So who is your other DE? I'd love to have Watt-Smith-Mitchell-Mario with Barwin coming up to the line in a Joker type of role. I also think Watt/Jordan are both versatile enough to play DT on occasion. Or have Watt - Mitchell - Smith as the DL and line Mario up as OLB rushing... what that's essentially doing is just realigning to a 4man front which I think will be the majority of the case when Mario is lined up as an "OLB".

I think Smith could use some time to rest, to be honest. 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT during the game, rotate the DL and keep them all fresh. That's how you win in the trenches.

beerlover
04-04-2011, 06:35 PM
With any position I never view it as Starter or Back Up... but rather the number of snaps one would receive. I think a DE like Watt/Jordan could potentially have more snaps, and thus more potential impact, than an OLB like Smith/Kerrigan/Houston.

On passing downs, Smith will move inside to DT. So who is your other DE? I'd love to have Watt-Smith-Mitchell-Mario with Barwin coming up to the line in a Joker type of role. I also think Watt/Jordan are both versatile enough to play DT on occasion. Or have Watt - Mitchell - Smith as the DL and line Mario up as OLB rushing... what that's essentially doing is just realigning to a 4man front which I think will be the majority of the case when Mario is lined up as an "OLB".

I think Smith could use some time to rest, to be honest. 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT during the game, rotate the DL and keep them all fresh. That's how you win in the trenches.

FYI, @ Cal's Pro-Day some three-four teams ran Jordan thru a series of OLB drills with more than satisfactory performance. Those specific teams, not mentioned, but I have to wonder if Wade w/Texans where one?

Rey
04-04-2011, 07:11 PM
Forget the 3-4 switch for a moment. The Texans need a pass rusher. Or pass rushers. Mario can't do it alone (and when he's hurt he can't do it, either). Smithiak has tried Okoye (didn't work) and then Barwin (jury's still out). I really thought the FA money to get Antonio Smith should have been spent on a pass rushing RDE, with Mario moving to the left side. But Smithiak disagreed.

So here the Texans sit heading into their 10th season, with one of the weakest pass rushes in the league. Still. Wade Phillips is supposed to fix the problem (along with other problems). How is Son of Bum supposed to do this without giving him the tools? Considering Barwin's injury, and the too quick decision to move Cushing inside, it would be a smart move for the Texans to take two pass rushers in the 1st 3 picks. That's if Boss McNair reaches into his deep pockets and signs a CB or 2.

Drafting a(nother) 5 technique is a luxury pick. For a team that can't afford luxury. And I'm not convinced at all that Jordan or Watts will be better pros than Aldon Smith or Justin Houston. I know their talent isn't close to Robert Quinn's. I don't think either of these guys go off the board before #17 or #18, and it would be in the Texans favor if someone in the top 10 went for them.

100% agree...

I'm just not sold on any of the OLB's that are projected to be around when we pick...

beerlover
04-04-2011, 09:26 PM
100% agree...

I'm just not sold on any of the OLB's that are projected to be around when we pick...

I can temper my expectations long as Texans get it right, would be a bonus if that so happens to be OLB. Yes I have my own draft opinions, & a pretty good feel most prospects, but this is more a question of addressing need, off the reservation (bpa, big board) because you agree he fits your system perfectly & is critical for your success.

2nd, 3rd, 4th doesn't matter there are always guys that come into perfect situations, regardless of draft grade, who shine because how they fit & fill a particular need. Cushing was picked 15th fit in a system right away that had a need & went on to win DROY. He graded out higher than Matthews for position Texans needed at the time. Matthews, selected #26 by Green Bay also went to a perfect situation where he best fit & they needed help @ right away. All he did was finish 2nd to Cush in rookie defensive voting, then took Green Bay to a Super Bowl. He finished a close second (17 votes to 15) to Troy Polamalu in the NFL Defensive Player of the Year voting, notable in that both led their defenses to Super Bowl XLV. In that game won by the Packers over the Pittsburgh Steelers.

While not as highly rated either Arizona OLB Brooks Reed not only looks the part he plays the part & flashes to me similar things on tape as Matthews did while @ USC. He may be the best fit of all the OLB in this draft (not mentioned in earlier discussions but if I had to quote "reach" I like him more than Kerrigan, Houston or Smith) so Texans should have their eye on him? They could risk trading down to add more value & look ultra smart draft day but if you know he's your guy, why take the risk? It's not like we have a guy over there @ Relient with ice running through his veins, ala Belichick, who can watch all those pass around him move down a few extra spots, pick up more picks & still get their guy.

powda
04-05-2011, 09:12 AM
On passing downs, Smith will move inside to DT. So who is your other DE?

I see you have nickle and dime packages in mind with a 4 man front. But let me ask you what your starting line up right now looks like? Mine is roughly as follows:

DE antonio smith
NT mitchell / cody (?)
DE mario williams

OLB mark anderson (?)
ILB brian cushing
ILB demeco ryans (i)
OLB connor barwin (i)

SS troy nolan (?)
FS glover quin (?)
CB kareem jackson (?)
CB jason allen (?)
NICKLE brice mccain (?)
DIME sherrick mcmannis (?)

I have placed (i) next to players comming off of injury and (?) next to players who are questionable starters. There are ALOT of questions about this lineup. Antonio Smith and Mario Williams might be the only capable starters in the group (Cushing is comming off a disapointing season and is transitioning to inside backer).

So if you plan to draft a DE in the first, when exactly do you plan to address the other 619 needs this team has?

dsorc
04-05-2011, 09:23 AM
On passing downs, Smith will move inside to DT. So who is your other DE?
If we go by what 3-4 teams usually do, the other DE would be Barwin or whatever OLB we draft in the first. There is no reason why a any of the options we might have for rush LB would not be a fit as nickle DE. In fact a lot of those guys project as pass rush specialists in 4-3 fronts. The only 3-4 OLB in this draft who would struggle at nickle DE would be Akeem Ayers.

Ole Miss Texan
04-05-2011, 10:03 AM
I see you have nickle and dime packages in mind with a 4 man front. But let me ask you what your starting line up right now looks like? Mine is roughly as follows:

DE antonio smith
NT mitchell / cody (?)
DE mario williams

OLB mark anderson (?)
ILB brian cushing
ILB demeco ryans (i)
OLB connor barwin (i)

SS troy nolan (?)
FS glover quin (?)
CB kareem jackson (?)
CB jason allen (?)
NICKLE brice mccain (?)
DIME sherrick mcmannis (?)

I have placed (i) next to players comming off of injury and (?) next to players who are questionable starters. There are ALOT of questions about this lineup. Antonio Smith and Mario Williams might be the only capable starters in the group (Cushing is comming off a disapointing season and is transitioning to inside backer).

So if you plan to draft a DE in the first, when exactly do you plan to address the other 619 needs this team has?
My "starting" line up would probably look very similar to yours... which is pretty ugly! LOL. Unfortunately we can't plan on free agency before the draft, but it's going to come around. Wade is going to find some guys that will compete. May not start but he will get some guys. I'm looking very very actively for a Veteran FA CB, particularly if we move Quin to FS. I think Gerald Sensabaugh might be a good pick up for SS (Cowboy). I don't really know what's out there along the DL/LB spots.

The #11 is just one pick and be it WR, DE, OLB, CB... he's going to get a lot of playing time. I definitely look to OLB if I take DE in the 1st. Brooks Reed has been my favorite in the 2nd for months, but he's looking like he'll go late 1st/early 2nd now. Sam Acho could be a great selection in the 2nd.

If we go by what 3-4 teams usually do, the other DE would be Barwin or whatever OLB we draft in the first. There is no reason why a any of the options we might have for rush LB would not be a fit as nickle DE. In fact a lot of those guys project as pass rush specialists in 4-3 fronts. The only 3-4 OLB in this draft who would struggle at nickle DE would be Akeem Ayers.
And now we're just putting THAT much more faith in Barwin coming back 100% to be an everydown player. I'd love for him to fill that role, because I think this is the exact kind of player he is... OLB in 3-4 and pass rushing 4-3... I love Barwin. But again, that would be putting a ton of faith he's fully healthy and can play virtually every snap of every play. Next we've got the OLB taken in the 1st, which would likely move up to the line in the 4-3. I'm totally for an OLB like Miller, Quinn, Smith... whoever if the Texans have him graded out there.

My whole point is I don't want to reach for say 'Aldon Smith' if the Texans rated lower than JJ Watt or Cameron Jordan.... that is if they have Watt as the 8th best player in the draft and Smith as 20 overall. If they have them rated fairly equally or an OLB higher, then by all means take him. Additionally, I'm not convinced Antonio Smith is going to be a great everydown D-linemen for us with the frist two downs as a 3-4 DE. Everyone just writes him in as the answer and I don't understand why. Why are people questioning Mario so much and not Antonio!?

I'm a huge fan of building the team with the absolute best players out there.

dsorc
04-05-2011, 10:33 AM
Additionally, I'm not convinced Antonio Smith is going to be a great everydown D-linemen for us with the frist two downs as a 3-4 DE. Everyone just writes him in as the answer and I don't understand why. Why are people questioning Mario so much and not Antonio!
People are not questioning Antonio as much because he made his name playing DE in a 3-4. Admittedly, it was a hybrid defense but Antonio is the only guy in our front 7 with experience in a 3-4 alignment. He should be able to do fine in the new D because he has already done fine in a similar scenario.

powda
04-05-2011, 11:06 AM
And now we're just putting THAT much more faith in Barwin coming back 100% to be an everydown player.

I'm a huge fan of building the team with the absolute best players out there.


Barwin may not fit. The truth is we may need 2 olb's rather than 1. All the more reason not to select a DE in the first.

I Dont think the talent level between Watt/Jordan and one of the OLBs is signifigant enough to justify selecting a position which isnt an immediate need. The Texans may feel differently.

My problem with selecting an OLB is that transitioning from a college DE to and NFL OLB is going to take some time. Do we have time to wait on a player to develop? i dont think Kubiak does.

As far as Smith and Williams go...i think theyre both able to handle the position...i just dont know that they want to be 3-4 defensive lineman. Either way, they should suffice for this upcomming season.

You are clearly in the "best player available camp" while i think we have enough other positions of need that we can still fill a need while getting the best player available or pretty darn close. To each his own.

right now my gut says Kerrigan. i base this off the fact that i end up pissed off every draft weekend.

beerlover
04-05-2011, 11:14 AM
People are not questioning Antonio as much because he made his name playing DE in a 3-4. Admittedly, it was a hybrid defense but Antonio is the only guy in our front 7 with experience in a 3-4 alignment. He should be able to do fine in the new D because he has already done fine in a similar scenario.

I don't think he enjoyed that experience? He was very happy to get out of there (of course with bigger paycheck in hand) & come play in a 4-3 front. Remember he was supposed to be a LDE while Mario remained Texans RDE.

I also think you don't just flip a switch & convert those positions/players automatically & go into next season thinking everything is hunky dory :toropalm:

beerlover
04-05-2011, 11:29 AM
I cant agree with resignng "pay me rick" after he was #1 disgruntled, #2 comming off injury, #3 expecting a 50 something million dollar contract.

lots of folks in Atlanta agree with his value being far less then 50 whatever million. If thats what we needed to pay to retain him...good bye. You over value the "mentor" role. These guys are competing for checks at the end of the day.

It would have been a one year rental, nothing more nothing less. The Texans needed some veteran leadership in that secondary, it probably cost them the playoffs, that to me was worth more millions than what it would have cost to franchise the guy.

I dont get how people hold Kareem Jackson's failures against selecting a cornerback in the first round. What does Amukamara or anyone else have to do with Frank Bush, Worthless safety's, a limited pass rush, and a questionable scheme from the 2010 season? By highlighting Jackson's failures you are arguing for the need to add more talent rookie or otherwise.

nobody is questioning selection of a CB in the 1st round. its more the who they selected & why they jammed him into a system with the proper support to succeed. I still think he can/will be successful in the right system with better players around him.

I'd be willing to listen to the argument for a nose tackle. This buisnes about selecting a 3-4 DE in the first is counterproductive. Why would you draft a player who has no chance to start immediately? Is Jordan or Watt gonna take playing time from Antonio Smith or Mario Williams? Wouldnt you rather your rookie take playing time from somewhere else?

The reasons are self evident you want to improve defensive line play, in a new system with the right fits. Also the way the draft breaks down it looks like BPA on the board could very well be a 5 technique DE not OLB. However I would support a trade down & taking a OLB which I would prefer Brooks Reed to any including Kerrigan, but I could live with Ryan too, just not #11.

If your considering a 3-4 DE its because you've become infatuated with a player. You should try listing the opening day starters as of right now. Thats the reality check you need.

Thanks, but thats not how I build my draft board, I'll leave that up to the genius's over on Kirby who have built the dynasty we all love & know as our Houston Texans.

Mr teX
04-05-2011, 11:40 AM
If we go DE, i want in this order:

Bowers
Jordan
Quinn
Watt

Quinn would be higher than jordan if not for the brain tumor deal & having to sit out 2010. Kerrigan & Smith don't do anything for me after watching them a little more. We've already got a Kerrigan on this team; his name is Conner Barwin...plus he runs around guys too much. Smith.. I have a hard time figuring he'll be able to make much of an impact his 1st year here..he's just too raw & our 1st rounder needs to have an immediate impact.

If we go LB, i want in this order:

Houston
Ayers
B. Carter

Not thrilled about any of these guys honestly. Houston looks athletic enough to rush the passer & drop back in coverage & be effective. the others didn't impress me enough to warrant an 11th pick selection.

My only hope is that Bowers or Amukamara or 1 of the other top defensive studs fall to us b/c that's the only way i'll be really satisfied with whomever they pick if they stay at 11.

powda
04-05-2011, 11:47 AM
It would have been a one year rental, nothing more nothing less. The Texans needed some veteran leadership in that secondary, it probably cost them the playoffs

They did need some veteran leadership. From somebody other then a disgruntled has been comming off an injury and still demanding how much for the one season +10 million? No thanks. Playoffs? You think "pay me rick" would have led us to the playoffs? seriously? He equals 5 wins?



nobody is questioning selection of a CB in the 1st round. its more the who they selected & why they jammed him into a system with the proper support to succeed. I still think he can/will be successful in the right system with better players around him.

Perhaps not in this thread and perhaps not you but plenty. If you've said in the past, "Our secondary is to young, the last thing we need is another rookie cornerback." You fall into the category i refrenced.


The reasons are self evident you want to improve defensive line play, in a new system with the right fits.

Sure you do...but not at the expense of the other 8 positions on the field. People seem to have forgotten our secondary was historically bad.



Thanks, but thats not how I build my draft board

The ultimate goal is building a dominant roster / starting line up. Not a draft board. It's unlikely they can draft an Allpro at every position, but they better have people who can compete.

steelbtexan
04-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Here you go again, 5 tech DE is not a luxury pick. People are premature to project the Texans are set with Mario & Smith who have never played in a 3-4 straight up. For Mario is going to be more physical taking on big nasty guards/tackle combinations instead of TE/OT. Antoino is a little undersized & may be at risk injury wise. So depth is also a consideration over the course of a long season, especially one with playoff aspirations. It is very much a need to have a top end rotation up front to stay fresh, keep healthy & apply relentless pressure regardless of injury status. Antonio Smith is entering his 8th season while Mario, believe it or not is going on his 6th year in the NFL neither is getting any younger. Where is the future, the new 3-4 foundation piece? I'll tell you its in a player like Watt or Jordan (presently have discussions behind closed doors on this very subject in our war room). Not only will it help OLB position by creating lanes/locking up two defenders, along with viable NT, create some inside pass pressure too.

You fail in the draft when you pass on best talent available, year after year this approach will leave your team talent defcient, as they become just average players. And how many more good years does Andre have? this will be his 9th season, so why not take a complimentry playmaking WR of the future like Julio Jones? your going to tell me because Texans need OLB they should take one (Houston or Kerrigan) regardless over Jones, Watt or Jordan? I just hope Rick Smith gets better advise from Wade & the Texans draft board reflects not just needs now but in the future as well. :devilpig:

Agree and disagree DE is a priority. I have Houston rated about as highly as Watt/Jordan etc... So drafting Houston wouldn't be a reach. IMHO

There are plenty of devlopmental DE's to be had in the later rds. That have potential Because he's a true game changer and would have more impact than any other player not named Peterson/Darius/Miller in this draft.

steelbtexan
04-05-2011, 12:15 PM
I can temper my expectations long as Texans get it right, would be a bonus if that so happens to be OLB. Yes I have my own draft opinions, & a pretty good feel most prospects, but this is more a question of addressing need, off the reservation (bpa, big board) because you agree he fits your system perfectly & is critical for your success.

2nd, 3rd, 4th doesn't matter there are always guys that come into perfect situations, regardless of draft grade, who shine because how they fit & fill a particular need. Cushing was picked 15th fit in a system right away that had a need & went on to win DROY. He graded out higher than Matthews for position Texans needed at the time. Matthews, selected #26 by Green Bay also went to a perfect situation where he best fit & they needed help @ right away. All he did was finish 2nd to Cush in rookie defensive voting, then took Green Bay to a Super Bowl. He finished a close second (17 votes to 15) to Troy Polamalu in the NFL Defensive Player of the Year voting, notable in that both led their defenses to Super Bowl XLV. In that game won by the Packers over the Pittsburgh Steelers.

While not as highly rated either Arizona OLB Brooks Reed not only looks the part he plays the part & flashes to me similar things on tape as Matthews did while @ USC. He may be the best fit of all the OLB in this draft (not mentioned in earlier discussions but if I had to quote "reach" I like him more than Kerrigan, Houston or Smith) so Texans should have their eye on him? They could risk trading down to add more value & look ultra smart draft day but if you know he's your guy, why take the risk? It's not like we have a guy over there @ Relient with ice running through his veins, ala Belichick, who can watch all those pass around him move down a few extra spots, pick up more picks & still get their guy.

Trading down would be the way to go. But wth the lockout I think trading during this draft will be minimal.

Ole Miss Texan
04-05-2011, 12:26 PM
I can temper my expectations long as Texans get it right, would be a bonus if that so happens to be OLB. Yes I have my own draft opinions, & a pretty good feel most prospects, but this is more a question of addressing need, off the reservation (bpa, big board) because you agree he fits your system perfectly & is critical for your success.

2nd, 3rd, 4th doesn't matter there are always guys that come into perfect situations, regardless of draft grade, who shine because how they fit & fill a particular need. Cushing was picked 15th fit in a system right away that had a need & went on to win DROY. He graded out higher than Matthews for position Texans needed at the time. Matthews, selected #26 by Green Bay also went to a perfect situation where he best fit & they needed help @ right away. All he did was finish 2nd to Cush in rookie defensive voting, then took Green Bay to a Super Bowl. He finished a close second (17 votes to 15) to Troy Polamalu in the NFL Defensive Player of the Year voting, notable in that both led their defenses to Super Bowl XLV. In that game won by the Packers over the Pittsburgh Steelers.

While not as highly rated either Arizona OLB Brooks Reed not only looks the part he plays the part & flashes to me similar things on tape as Matthews did while @ USC. He may be the best fit of all the OLB in this draft (not mentioned in earlier discussions but if I had to quote "reach" I like him more than Kerrigan, Houston or Smith) so Texans should have their eye on him? They could risk trading down to add more value & look ultra smart draft day but if you know he's your guy, why take the risk? It's not like we have a guy over there @ Relient with ice running through his veins, ala Belichick, who can watch all those pass around him move down a few extra spots, pick up more picks & still get their guy.

Trading down would be the way to go. But wth the lockout I think trading during this draft will be minimal.
I'm really high on Brooks Reed. Originally wanted him with our 2nd but as time moves on it looks doubtful he'll be there. I'd really like a trade down and given the right circumstance, hope Rick Smith could pull it off. Getting Reed in the 17-25 range would be optimal in my opinion.

Who knows, maybe a QB will be available that someone jumps the Vikings for, or a DE that NE or SD covets, or Julio that teams will jump up for or maybe one of the top LT's and a team just "has to have their guy". If we could move down with San Diego, take OLB Brooks Reed there and still pick up their 2nd rounder, that would be amazing.

Maddict5
05-22-2011, 06:18 PM
Boom! ;)

powda
05-24-2011, 03:19 PM
Boom! ;)

boom what? You want a salute because you picked the position the Texans selected in the first round?? Or because you think selecting a 5tech was the way to build the team?

Will you still be inviting salutes at the end of the upcomming season if things dont pan out? Boom.

thunderkyss
05-24-2011, 06:47 PM
I was just wondering what everyone thinks the chances of us deviating from the original plan (playing mario at DE & drafting a de/olb) & taking someone like Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt @ 11 and moving mario to OLB if the nightmare scenario of prince, quinn etc being gone at 11...


You do have to wonder if all that talk about Mario at DE was simply misdirection by the front office.


I personally don't like the idea of Mario at OLB.... but as a weakside DE who stands up most of the time, I like.

Just wish we had a real SAM playing the other side.