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View Full Version : Doesn't it take atleast 2 years to Successfully Transition to the 3-4 ?


IDEXAN
03-28-2011, 07:28 AM
And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?

Texan_Bill
03-28-2011, 07:49 AM
What's the difference? They didn't have the personnel to play the 4-3 either. FML!

*ducks punches*

powda
03-28-2011, 08:27 AM
As long as we draft some tight ends we'll be ok.

The Pencil Neck
03-28-2011, 10:01 AM
And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?

Because even with a partial change to the 3-4, our defense will be so much better coached than it was in the 4-3 that it will improve. After being one of the worst defenses in history... it almost HAS to improve.

Also, Wade Phillips' defense doesn't need the same sorts of players that a lot of 3-4s need and can make use of 4-3 DTs in the NT spot when most 3-4s need a bigger body in the middle.

b0ng
03-28-2011, 10:15 AM
What would our defense be ranked if we don't successfully transition to the 3-4? 33rd ranked DEF?

Everybody says the same thing about every team transitioning defenses during the offseasons. They don't have X (D-linemen, OLB's, NT, name the position), they have to get rid of all their players etc etc. Mike Nolan and Dom Capers both proved that a great coordinator can make a defensive alignment transition much less painful than most pundits think it will be.

TexCanada
03-28-2011, 10:19 AM
We don't even need a successful D to make the playoffs, all we need is a D that doesn't completely fail on a regular basis.

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Wade said the Texans have the talent to win now (I assume he means contending fot a playoff spot).

Sure, if you want a very good defense, you can always use an upgrade.
Otherwise, it looks like Wade think (and I see it when I compare how the front 7 on both teams played) that they have the guys in place to be decent as long as the core players remain healthy somewhat.
Wade's scheme is quite similar to what the Texans use last year up front.

To be truly successful, well, you can always use a guy (meaning many) who is both stronger and quicker and faster than the guy you have now.

powda
03-28-2011, 11:01 AM
everyone is preoccupied with a nose tackle and some Demarcus Ware type rush linebacker ,but i dont know that our front 7 is the problem. It wasnt the big issue last year.

until our secondary gets fixed all this 3-4 personel dosent even matter. A portion of the time we're going to be running a 4-3 anyway.

HJam72
03-28-2011, 11:29 AM
Yes, but this is the Texans. It will take 10 years and 4 DCs.

badboy
03-28-2011, 11:43 AM
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB. Keep in mind the main goal of the NT is to tie up 2 blockers so DE and LBs can get to QB & stop the run. I think Cody will get some reps. On my mock board I have Phil Taylor from Baylor falling to us # 10 in second. CB is a more pressing priority than OLB or DT for me.

HJam72
03-28-2011, 11:48 AM
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB. Keep in mind the main goal of the NT is to tie up 2 blockers so DE and LBs can get to QB & stop the run. I think Cody will get some reps. On my mock board I have Phil Taylor from Baylor falling to us # 10 in second. CB is a more pressing priority than OLB or DT for me.

Cheerleader tryouts for NT!!! :splits:

BigBull17
03-28-2011, 11:55 AM
Well, it takes 6 years to make a winning team, right?

Hervoyel
03-28-2011, 12:34 PM
"Doesn't it take atleast 2 years to Successfully Transition to the 3-4 ?"

So with the Texans that's going to work out more like 5 years right?

Hervoyel
03-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Wade said the Texans have the talent to win now (I assume he means contending fot a playoff spot).

Yeah but saying that was just a condition of employment. He probably doesn't think for a minute that the Texans really will need to win now. He's probably thinking that we got 2-3 years before his defense has to show results. By then Gary's gone and Wade's the HC in Houston. Dream job is a lock for him.

IDEXAN
03-28-2011, 01:23 PM
If utilized correctly, Mario Williams will do well in 3-4 & I think Conner Barwin if healthy will excell @ OLB.

Mario has played as a down lineman his entire career, so going from a 4-3 DE
to a 3-4 DE should be a minor adjustment, especially since Wades 3-4 has the gap responsibility as what Mario is used to playing in the 4-3. I'm not worried about him or Antonio Smith on the other end of the DLine.
It's entirely different for Barwin, who's never played standing upright to any degree at all. It will be a major adjustment for him to make, and in a year when he's still recovering from a very severe injury. And then we have to find another player coming out of college who can "project" favorably to playing the other OLB position.

TEXANRED
03-28-2011, 01:33 PM
And further complicating this transition for the Texans is that they have no players on their current roster who have experience at the 2 positions that most distinguish the 3-4 from the 4-3, NT and OLB. Right now Earl Mitchell is thought to be the most likely to be the Texans starting NT, and he's only played in the 4-3. And the most often mentioned OLB starter is a former basketball player/TE who's only played a couple years as a defensive player and none in the 3-4. And he's still rehabbing from last years season-ending
injury, so who knows when and if he ever recovers fully his former athletic prowess ? And maybe the biggest complication is knowing when and if we can
find players to help the transition without knowing when we can sign FAs
because of the Lockout/absense of a new CBA ?
So why would anybody really expect the Texans to have a winning-season and make the playoffs (and save Kubiaks job) in 2011 if it's unlikely that we can complete the transition to the 3-4 in one year ?
What's the worst that can happen? Finish 32nd instead of 31st?

Besides, the next time you see the Texans play will be in 2012 so there is the 2 years.

powda
03-28-2011, 01:47 PM
It's entirely different for Barwin, who's never played standing upright to any degree at all. It will be a major adjustment for him to make...

Thankfully for us, this is where Gary's masterplan comes into play. Barwin is used to playing in space...he just did it as a tightend. The transition will be seamless. Why did we ever doubt his genuis?

rush2112mn
03-28-2011, 01:56 PM
I, pernsonally, think it could take some time. I hope the lockout ends soon so we could get the OTA's and training camp in. If not, they will have to learn on the run if lockout ends in Aug or Sep....and that not be advantageous for this team.....

Seor Stan
03-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Pffft.

Wade Phillips can fix any defense in one off season.

Sincerely,

Gary Kubiak can fix any QB

Brisco_County
03-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Phillips has an especially difficult job right now, considering the unknowable variables like Connor Barwin's recovery status in the fall, and whether there is going to be any preseason practice available to implement and coach the new system. This transition may be more rough than his previous jobs.

Nawzer
03-28-2011, 02:26 PM
Well they don't have the luxury of 2 years. They have to make it happen now!

drs23
03-28-2011, 07:46 PM
Phillips has an especially difficult job right now, considering the unknowable variables like Connor Barwin's recovery status in the fall, and whether there is going to be any preseason practice available to implement and coach the new system. This transition may be more rough than his previous jobs.


Yes. Wade's gonna have a tough row to hoe. Draft heavy on that side and have no contact/coaching/learning. That's tough. Seems the offense takes a hit as well. I think Dickerson and Casey and others need work they won't get. That's a big deal too, to me. I may be wrong but it seems like some folks are projecting hitting on a bunch of draft picks that make a difference. I don't.

Call me names if ya want. I, like others, see this season as a pass for the whole staff. No matter who's fault it is for this year being different than any year since'87, it is. Not a strike this time. It's a lockout. Lay blame where you wish, fact is Matty and a few others played pitch-n-catch @ Rice today. They wouldn't have been there last year.

I'll wait and see. What else can ya do?

CretorFrigg
03-28-2011, 08:22 PM
Please refer to the Green Bay Packers.

76Texan
03-28-2011, 09:41 PM
Yeah but saying that was just a condition of employment. He probably doesn't think for a minute that the Texans really will need to win now. He's probably thinking that we got 2-3 years before his defense has to show results. By then Gary's gone and Wade's the HC in Houston. Dream job is a lock for him.

All the politcal stuffs aside, what I gather from various pieces where Wade talks about defense and by learning his playbooks and compare them to what I saw from the Texans the last couple of years, the team can play right now and would not miss a beat with Wade as the DC.
By that I mean the players that we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing.
The main difference is in the frequency each defensive front is used.
That and we probably won't see the Texans in a standard 4-3, even though I won't be surprised if Wade decide to use it; he's not a stranger to it.
(The Eagles played a 4-3 when Wade was there.)

Lucky
03-28-2011, 09:43 PM
Yes, but this is the Texans. It will take 10 years and 4 DCs.
I hope you are a prophet. This will be the Texans 10th season and Wade will be the franchise's 4th defensive coordinator.

HJam72
03-28-2011, 09:48 PM
I hope you are a prophet. This will be the Texans 10th season and Wade will be the franchise's 4th defensive coordinator.

The clueless prophet. :)

My subconscious is smarter than me.

76Texan
03-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Position specific, let's take the NT.
Cody, Mitchell, Okoye, and Smith had all manned this one for us at times the last couple of years (mitchell, as a rookie, only had one year of spot experience, but he did well and should only improve).

The NT in either system (Bush's or Wade's) is used the same way.
If there's any dissimilar, I didn't notice it.

Keep in mind that in both systems, at times, there's no NT; ie. no D-lineman lining up over the Center or shading outside the Center.
In another word, you could find two D-linemen over the Guards or shading the Guards, leaving the Center uncovered.

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:01 PM
The so-called 4-3 DT can be found at various spots on the line as a 3-4 DE in Wade's system.

Cody, Mitchell, Okoye, Smith, Mario, (and others) have been found here, either in a 4-man or 3-man or 2-man front for the Texans. (Wade also uses the 2-man front).


Couple that with the fact that Wade often employs a 4-man front to go with his nickel and dime packages, it is untrue that Okoye does not fit in Wade's system.

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:18 PM
Now, let's backtrack a little and talk about scheme for a moment.
The last couple of years, the Texans have incorporated more and more 3-man front into their scheme; whether a 3-4 or a 3-3 or some other variations.
The players are already acclimated to Wade's system.


On the other hand, the 3-man front that Wade employs can look like a 4-man Under front, Over Front, or Miami front (that the Texans used), with the only exception that one more guy on the edge take his hand off the ground.
(You can find this guy bending his knee more or rest his hand or elbow on his knee to keep his pad low - and that's pretty much the extent of the difference).

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:22 PM
Guys like Mario, Smith, Anderson, Jamison, Barwin, Nading, etc. (besides our LBs) had played with their hands off the ground as a "true" 3-4 OLB in a true one-gap 3-4 scheme a la Wade.

Similarly, guys like Ware, Spencer, etc. had played with one hand on the ground as a DE in a "true" 4-3 DE in a one-gap 4-3 system like ours.

Corrosion
03-28-2011, 10:24 PM
everyone is preoccupied with a nose tackle and some Demarcus Ware type rush linebacker ,but i dont know that our front 7 is the problem. It wasnt the big issue last year.

until our secondary gets fixed all this 3-4 personel dosent even matter. A portion of the time we're going to be running a 4-3 anyway.

What consistantly beat the Texans in the passing game last year was scheme related.


They always got burned with pass plays between the zones - especially between the corner and safety. 16 weeks in and they still didnt solve the problem.

Not having a LB who could cover a dead man with a blanket didnt help.


The other thing that killed them was misdirection plays .... that was more personel related as players didnt mind their responsibilities and or over persued.

Texan_Bill
03-28-2011, 10:27 PM
"6-3 Stackmonster..... 6-3 Stackmonster!!!!!!"

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:31 PM
That goes back to position specific; we have guys that played as true SOLB and WOLB in Wade's 3-4 scheme already, and they are plenty:
Mario, Smith, Nading, Barwin, Anderson, Jamison, Cushing, Adibi, Sharpton...

That is they played with their hands off the ground.

In many other instances, some of those guys can put a hand on the ground, but they still play the same role as a 3-4 OLB.

Hervoyel
03-28-2011, 10:33 PM
All the politcal stuffs aside, what I gather from various pieces where Wade talks about defense and by learning his playbooks and compare them to what I saw from the Texans the last couple of years, the team can play right now and would not miss a beat with Wade as the DC.
By that I mean the players that we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing.
The main difference is in the frequency each defensive front is used.
That and we probably won't see the Texans in a standard 4-3, even though I won't be surprised if Wade decide to use it; he's not a stranger to it.
(The Eagles played a 4-3 when Wade was there.)

Think about what that means though if that's true.

"The players we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing".

The big change is going to be the frequency each defensive front is used? I don't know what I was in such a state about. The Texans are already a year into his defense and he's only been here a couple of months! Now that's progress.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/Hervoyel/HolyFacePalm.jpg

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:37 PM
What consistantly beat the Texans in the passing game last year was scheme related.


They always got burned with pass plays between the zones - especially between the corner and safety. 16 weeks in and they still didnt solve the problem.

Not having a LB who could cover a dead man with a blanket didnt help.


The other thing that killed them was misdirection plays .... that was more personel related as players didnt mind their responsibilities and or over persued.

This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.
It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)

76Texan
03-28-2011, 10:42 PM
Think about what that means though if that's true.

"The players we had last year were doing things the guys in Wade's system were doing".

The big change is going to be the frequency each defensive front is used? I don't know what I was in such a state about. The Texans are already a year into his defense and he's only been here a couple of months! Now that's progress.

When I rewatched the games after we hired Wade, the thought had crossed my mind. Holly cow! No wonder Wade seems to be very at ease in those talks.
Remember, we're talking about the front 7 here!

Corrosion
03-28-2011, 10:47 PM
This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.
It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)

Scheme related = Coaching ... The defensive coaches sucked almost as bad as Obama last season.


And no , its not better than Vista.

steelbtexan
03-28-2011, 11:04 PM
Dont worry there's no way the Texans will be as bad om defense as they were next yr.

BTW Wade cut his teeth as Oliers DL coach with HOF Bethea and NT Culp (who was one of the biggest baddest dudes in his day) RIP

76Texan
03-29-2011, 11:36 AM
Back to the scheme, in the Texans/Cowboys game, there was actually one time the Cowboys lined up in a 4-man front with a LB on the LOS.
The LB; however, moved back to the second level before the ball was snapped to make a standard 4-3 look for the defense.

Add that to the 46 Bear defense and the 5-man goal line front that Wade also uses, there wasn't anything in Wade's system (regarding the front 7) that the Texans defensive players haven't played themselves.

El Tejano
03-29-2011, 01:08 PM
The answer to the question is 2 years, and 3 months.

IDEXAN
03-29-2011, 01:15 PM
Now, let's backtrack a little and talk about scheme for a moment.
The last couple of years, the Texans have incorporated more and more 3-man front into their scheme; whether a 3-4 or a 3-3 or some other variations.
The players are already acclimated to Wade's system.


On the other hand, the 3-man front that Wade employs can look like a 4-man Under front, Over Front, or Miami front (that the Texans used), with the only exception that one more guy on the edge take his hand off the ground.
(You can find this guy bending his knee more or rest his hand or elbow on his knee to keep his pad low - and that's pretty much the extent of the difference).
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.

ArlingtonTexan
03-29-2011, 02:30 PM
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.

And this is key because at least in Dallas, they were not a DB nor ILB blitz heavy scheme (in fact they were low percentge blizters from this positions). What pressure they got came primarily from the OLBs (Ware/spencer) and NT. Wade claims he can adjust his schmes to allow peronel to do what it does best, but there ae no proven guys at the spots has gotten pressure from in his last couple of stops.

Corrosion
03-29-2011, 07:52 PM
This will be the difference as Bush continued with Richard Smith's spot-drop soft zone instead of Wade's pattern matching zone.It's a whole different animal that I'd like to address later.
(There are pluses and minuses in both, but how the players went about it for Bush were just incredibly terrible - and when all the guys were doing it, it goes back to coaching.)

The secondary was plain and simple the achillies heel of this team .... had they performed at a half rotten rate rather than an Obama rotten rate that team could have won the division with ease.



When a team gets beat by the same **** week in and week out , you have to look at the coaching staff and wonder why they havent made the neccessary adjustments.

I think Wade will be more aggressive with his defensive fronts but I also get the idea he can be much more creative with coverage schemes and disguise them a bit better while adjusting to those things that Smith wasnt able to do.

If the DB's can execute the matchup zone (Ugh there's that word again) I expect the front seven to make life miserable for the opponents - For once the Texans defense may dictate to the offense rather than being dictated to.

Outside of Kareem Jackson falling down so much .... I think the biggest issue with last seasons pass defense was the safety play. They were always out of position and routinely took piss poor angles. You dont have to explain to me why they are gonna spend next season elsewhere.

Right now they have Quinn , Jackson , Allen , McCain and McManis at the corners with .... Nolan and Demps as safeties. Nolan had some flashes last season but I dont think it was enough to count on him as a starter come opening day. They have to add at least three players at those spots between the draft and FA. Preferably with some NFL experience.

With FA coming after the draft , I expect some teams to overpay out of desperation to fill voids on their rosters ..... ugh.


Its not the front 7 Im worried about making the transition ..... its that secondary.

While I typed this post , Kareem Jackson fell down and tripped Texan Bill making him fall on a pepper plant.

76Texan
03-30-2011, 12:01 AM
This is all very reassuring 76Texan, to a degree. However when it comes to the front 7 the Texans are still short on established, game-proven OLBs. If Wade is gonna operate out of a base 3-4, he's still gonna need to get atleast 2 guys who are capable of rushing the QB from the edge, from an upright position. Untill he gets over that hurdle with his defense, I'm not as comfortable, not as confidant as I want to be with it.

I took a quick look at the second Colts game just by chance.
Out of the first 30 defensive plays, there were a few that I can't see the line-up at the snaps; for the other 27, I counted as followed:

- 13 times in 4-man front.
- 1 time in 3-man front, but Mario put his hand down at the last second.
- 11 times in 3-man front; the majority of them with Mario as an OLB; also Anderson got a sack from the OLB position.
- 2 times where nobody put their hands down; the Texans had 5 "LBs" on the LOS and came with all 5 on blitzes; how do you like that?

Norg
03-30-2011, 12:11 AM
Yeah who cares whe sucked has a 4-3 team has well LOL


Looking back what went so wrong with our 4-3 D how did Our D regress from a 9-7 team to a 6-10 team ????

76Texan
03-30-2011, 10:02 AM
I took a quick look at the second Colts game just by chance.
Out of the first 30 defensive plays, there were a few that I can't see the line-up at the snaps; for the other 27, I counted as followed:

- 13 times in 4-man front.
- 1 time in 3-man front, but Mario put his hand down at the last second.
- 11 times in 3-man front; the majority of them with Mario as an OLB; also Anderson got a sack from the OLB position.
- 2 times where nobody put their hands down; the Texans had 5 "LBs" on the LOS and came with all 5 on blitzes; how do you like that?

For the rest of the game, the Texans continued to mix in different fronts.
I didn't keep the exact count, but they probably were in a 4-man front less than the combination of all other fronts (zero-DLineman, 2 or 3).
So there you have it, if you want an established 3-4 OLB, his name is Mario Williams. He played both SOLB abd WOLB.
The other guys like Anderson and Smith also saw time at OLB (as well as Cushing and Diles in this game).

Add that to the fact that Wade use a 4-man front in his nickel package (which is something the Texans did all the time for several years against Manning and the Colts), the fronts that we see in this game could very well be the same thing that Wade would use against an offense like the Colts.

Also, I pulled up the first game to take a quick look at Barwin because I just remember something.
And sure enough, it was there.
On one snap, Barwin was the WOLB; he went around the edge and got a little piece of Manning's arm as he stepped inti his throw, forcing the pass to be high.
Pollard caught the ball but was out of bound.

Barwin had come on late the year before, in many instances as an OLB.
I was expecting quite a bit out of him but then he got injured.
We missed his plays. Hopefully, it dosn't take too long for him to get back to his usual self.

The Texans also showed a lot of interest in Anderson.
And I think it's safer to go after his service than drafting an OLB in the first two rounds.
(The Texans can still do that, especially without a CBA).
But if they wait until the later rounds, it wouldn't surprised me one bit.

Is there any FA from the Cowboys roster that Wade and the Texans might pursue?

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2011, 10:18 AM
Is there any FA from the Cowboys roster that Wade and the Texans might pursue?

We've always had an issue with the pass rush. Barwin may have fixed that but Anderson didn't. I'm not comfy with either of those guys as the RLB.

The Cowboys defensive guys that are FA include:

Gerald Sensabaugh, SS
Stephen Bowen, DE/DT
Marcus Spears, DE
Jason Hatcher, DE/DT

Sensabaugh would be an improvement over Pollard but he's not going to set the world on fire. Marcus Spears isn't going to give us much in the pass rush and I can't see us going after him unless he really wants to play here and/or we move Smith.

76Texan
03-30-2011, 10:54 AM
We've always had an issue with the pass rush. Barwin may have fixed that but Anderson didn't. I'm not comfy with either of those guys as the RLB.

The Cowboys defensive guys that are FA include:

Gerald Sensabaugh, SS
Stephen Bowen, DE/DT
Marcus Spears, DE
Jason Hatcher, DE/DT

Sensabaugh would be an improvement over Pollard but he's not going to set the world on fire. Marcus Spears isn't going to give us much in the pass rush and I can't see us going after him unless he really wants to play here and/or we move Smith.

We can use Sensabaugh, and maybe even Spears (but he may want a little more money than Bob wants to pay and a long-term deal).

Anderson is an in-between player (a tweener 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB), I think he can be of more use as a 3-4 OLB; he tested well at the combine as far as flexibility of the hips to be able to drop back in coverage.
In Wade's scheme, the OLB seldom run with the TE anyway.
Anderson should be plenty fluid to drop back into zone coverage (matchup zone and not the zoft zone that the Texans ran.)

I think Jamison can help in the rotation at OLB as well; and don't forget Nading, who was Barwin's backup.

Besides, we also have Cushing, Adibi, and Sharpton, all of whom I think can bring something at OLB.
Also, I'd like to see what they can do with Keglar; that guy tested really well at the combine as well, and he looks to have potential in one of the PS game I watched - Titans/Saints.)

All I'm saying is that if the Texans were to play today (with Barwin somewhat healthy and Anderson in tow), Wade can't say that he doesn't have enough players on the front seven to make his scheme work.

As far as the long-term solutions, I haven't the slightest idea.
- Whether they keep rotating Mario between 9-tech, 7t, 6t, 5t, and 4t or move him permanently inside to play mostly as a 5-t outside the OT.
The way Wade has been talking about it, it seems like he wasn't sure one way or another either.
- Will Barwin come back 100%? If he does, he will be the rush OLB mostly from the weak side.

IMO, if they decide to move Mario permanently to the inside, then they would need another high-caliber OLB. Otherwise, it would be a wasted pick to draft a player in the first two rounds while we have other needs.

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2011, 01:27 PM
IMO, if they decide to move Mario permanently to the inside, then they would need another high-caliber OLB. Otherwise, it would be a wasted pick to draft a player in the first two rounds while we have other needs.

What I've been thinking about (and you've watched the tape on Wade's defense, so you may have a feel for this) is this: Instead of moving Cushing inside, put him on the outside as a SAM and then have Barwin/Anderson/Whoever play as a Rush LB, and then Demeco and Sharpton (or a draft pick) play the inside spots.

Is that feasible or is Cushing better suited to go inside in Wade's scheme? I know Wade has mentioned possibly moving him inside but what do you think will happen?

Corrosion
03-30-2011, 02:09 PM
Yeah who cares whe sucked has a 4-3 team has well LOL


Looking back what went so wrong with our 4-3 D how did Our D regress from a 9-7 team to a 6-10 team ????

What went wrong ? The Texans secondary's inability to cover a dead man with a blanket.


Everyone is putting such emphasis on the front seven when they performed pretty well last season - accept when there was a LB tasked with covering a TE or RB ....
Its the secondary thats broken , its the secondary that constantly got burned by the same **** from week 1 thru week 16. Just about any pass the opponents threw between the zones could be chalked up as a completion .... same thing with slant routes , its like they were inviting those plays expecting to capitalize on them ..... I cant recall a single one where they did.

powda
03-30-2011, 02:45 PM
What went wrong ? The Texans secondary's inability to cover a dead man with a blanket.


Preach it brother. I've been on this soap box for a while.

The next opposing coment will be something like ---- "if we had a good pass rush then the secondary wouldnt be so bad."

Truth is, sometimes a secondary is bad because its BAD. I see the value in picks like Watt, Jordan, Quin, and Smith. I understand we need additional players in the front 7. But - - - when we have a HISORICALLY bad secondary that should be the primary focus.

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2011, 02:57 PM
Preach it brother. I've been on this soap box for a while.

The next opposing coment will be something like ---- "if we had a good pass rush then the secondary wouldnt be so bad."

Truth is, sometimes a secondary is bad because its BAD. I see the value in picks like Watt, Jordan, Quin, and Smith. I understand we need additional players in the front 7. But - - - when we have a HISORICALLY bad secondary that should be the primary focus.

When you have a young bad secondary like ours, do you try to fix it by adding more young players or by going to FA and fixing it with veteran players?

A lot of mocks have us taking Prince Amakumura (sp) but I think that's the wrong way to go. I think we need to try to get one of the CBs that's available in FA and one of the SSs available in FA. Along with that, we move Quin to FS. That should fix the secondary. Then we draft secondary for depth.

We don't draft a young CB to pair with our other young CBs and expect it to fix the problem (... which was more about how bad our safeties were in coverage.)

Wolf
03-30-2011, 05:12 PM
a little different view

Six years ago Romeo Crennel came to Cleveland with a 3-4 defense and high hopes that the Browns would develop into one of the most feared defenses in the league. His defense was supposed to give the opposing team different looks, with athletic linebackers spread all over the field wreaking havoc in the passing game.

There were two glaring problems with running this defense in Cleveland. The first was that the Browns lacked athletic linebackers to make the system work, and they couldn’t generate enough rush to stop any aspect of the opponents’ offense. So here we are six years later, and it is back to the 4-3 defense for the Cleveland Browns.

It wasn’t hard to tell that this change was coming. General Manager Tom Heckert and President Mike Holmgren both come from systems that ran the 4-3 defense. As soon as Eric Mangini and his 3-4 philosophy were shown the door, there was nothing standing in the way of the Browns returning to the run stopping 4-3. The 4-3, a defensive scheme that new Defensive Coordinator Dick Jauron has worked with his entire career, requires a different type of athlete than the old defense. And this is the main reason that the Browns parted ways with veterans Kenyon Coleman, Shaun Rogers, Eric Barton, and David Bowens.


http://www.dawgscooper.net/2011/02/cleveland-browns-4-3-defense-switch-how.html

Corrosion
03-30-2011, 06:10 PM
When you have a young bad secondary like ours, do you try to fix it by adding more young players or by going to FA and fixing it with veteran players?

A lot of mocks have us taking Prince Amakumura (sp) but I think that's the wrong way to go. I think we need to try to get one of the CBs that's available in FA and one of the SSs available in FA. Along with that, we move Quin to FS. That should fix the secondary. Then we draft secondary for depth.
We don't draft a young CB to pair with our other young CBs and expect it to fix the problem (... which was more about how bad our safeties were in coverage.)

For the most part I agree with you in fixing whats broken with established players but when we move Quin who was the teams best CB and insert him at FS , even if the guy signed in FA is better .... we still have Jackson on the other side falling down. Unless by some miracle he turns it around , they need at least two CB's if Quin is moved.
If Quin isnt moved , they need one top tier CB and can move Jackson to the bench or nickle where he should have been last year rather than starting from day one.

So you either have Nolan or Nolan & Quin at the safeties ....


The biggest issue for me is not knowing what you are going to end up with in FA prior to the draft. I think this has to change your thinking going into the draft , filling holes becomes a priority since who knows what you end up with in FA. You almost have to prepare thru the draft as if there were no FA period.

The Texans gaping holes are at CB and both S spots. (Like we didnt already know that). I'd hate to go into FA and have the same **** we saw last season happen again .... get used and abused so a guy an get a better contract with the team of his choice. (doesnt that sem to happen to the Texans an awful lot ?) Dance with that player and then be left at the altar without a suitable replacement. That leaves the team in an awful spot , probably having to overpay for .... an inferior player out of desperation.

Lucky
03-30-2011, 07:09 PM
The last couple of years, the Texans have incorporated more and more 3-man front into their scheme; whether a 3-4 or a 3-3 or some other variations.
The players are already acclimated to Wade's system.
I'm sorry, but that is bunk. The Texans played 3 man fronts in dime prevent defenses. Otherwise, they've been in a 4 man front. They are no more acclimated to a 3-4 than the offense is acclimated to the wildcat.


The Texans gaping holes are at CB and both S spots. (Like we didnt already know that).
You forgot me.

Signed,
Outside Linebackers

Corrosion
03-30-2011, 08:30 PM
You forgot me.

Signed,
Outside Linebackers


Hell they could use someone inside who can cover a TE.

Honestly I think they have to take the best available defensive player on the board at their spot at any number of positions - CB , DT , OLB and maybe DE although DE isnt near as pressing a need with MW and AS. (I wouldnt take any of the safety's in this draft in the first round)


They probably need to pick up two OLB's somewhere along with all those defensive backs.

Rey
03-30-2011, 08:45 PM
We've always had an issue with the pass rush. Barwin may have fixed that but Anderson didn't.

I don't think one guy is going to fix a pass rush.

Having a good pass rush involves scheme, defensive calls, secondary, motor and skill.

Unless you have two dominant edge rushers (like Mathis and Freeney), it's gotta be a collective effort.

I think both Barwin and Anderson would be excellent rushers if other things fell into place. I think they both have good pass rushing ability...

steelbtexan
03-30-2011, 09:00 PM
The secondary was plain and simple the achillies heel of this team .... had they performed at a half rotten rate rather than an Obama rotten rate that team could have won the division with ease.



When a team gets beat by the same **** week in and week out , you have to look at the coaching staff and wonder why they havent made the neccessary adjustments.

I think Wade will be more aggressive with his defensive fronts but I also get the idea he can be much more creative with coverage schemes and disguise them a bit better while adjusting to those things that Smith wasnt able to do.

If the DB's can execute the matchup zone (Ugh there's that word again) I expect the front seven to make life miserable for the opponents - For once the Texans defense may dictate to the offense rather than being dictated to.

Outside of Kareem Jackson falling down so much .... I think the biggest issue with last seasons pass defense was the safety play. They were always out of position and routinely took piss poor angles. You dont have to explain to me why they are gonna spend next season elsewhere.

Right now they have Quinn , Jackson , Allen , McCain and McManis at the corners with .... Nolan and Demps as safeties. Nolan had some flashes last season but I dont think it was enough to count on him as a starter come opening day. They have to add at least three players at those spots between the draft and FA. Preferably with some NFL experience.

With FA coming after the draft , I expect some teams to overpay out of desperation to fill voids on their rosters ..... ugh.


Its not the front 7 Im worried about making the transition ..... its that secondary.

While I typed this post , Kareem Jackson fell down and tripped Texan Bill making him fall on a pepper plant.

If you go by the theory that the Texans defense cant be fixed in one offseason. Then I hope they fix the secondary this offseason. Draft A.Williams in the 1st rd to play FS/SS. (He's 205lbs and a great tackler.) Move Quin to S. Draft a CB Davon House in the 2nd rd. He's really good. Then sign a vet. (Doesn't have to be ASO. Although it would be great.) and the secondary would be talented and fast. Unlike last yr.

Finally a weakness would be addressed. Then you could spend the rest of the draft Finding a couple of LB's and a NT. There are some available.

What you cant find this yr you can add in next yrs draft. When Phillips is HC.

Corrosion
03-30-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't think one guy is going to fix a pass rush.

Having a good pass rush involves scheme, defensive calls, secondary, motor and skill.

Unless you have two dominant edge rushers (like Mathis and Freeney), it's gotta be a collective effort.

I think both Barwin and Anderson would be excellent rushers if other things fell into place. I think they both have good pass rushing ability...

After Barwin went down , that defense was never the same last year .... I think he's a special player if he can get back to 100%. They manhandled the Dolts prior to his injury after that the defense was ordinary.

We never saw the defense the Texans planned to have last season because of injury and suspensions to Cushing , Barwin , Ryans and Williams. Throw in Diles taking a huge step back ... and a ****ty secondary and you get what we got.

Rey
03-30-2011, 09:18 PM
After Barwin went down , that defense was never the same last year .... I think he's a special player if he can get back to 100%. They manhandled the Dolts prior to his injury after that the defense was ordinary.

We never saw the defense the Texans planned to have last season because of injury and suspensions to Cushing , Barwin , Ryans and Williams. Throw in Diles taking a huge step back ... and a ****ty secondary and you get what we got.

I think Barwin can be a good player, but I am not convinced that losing him was our demise last year...

Our secondary was still terrible.
Our DT's still weren't anything spectacular...
Our defensive scheme wasn't all that great...

Barwin wasn't an every-down player....

I agree that losing Barwin really hurt us, but I can't get down with saying that is why our defense played poorly.

Look at the packers...They lost a bunch of guys...They lost their 1st or 2nd best defensive player in the Superbowl...Every year teams deal with injuries to key players.

But when you built out of straw one misstep and the whole thing is going to come crashing down. Honestly, I have not seen anything from Barwin on the pro level that makes me say..."Oh yeah, he's that dude...I'm gonna hang my hat on him"....

He didn't even play one full game last year...As much as people want to pencil him in, he's really a wild card for several reasons...Injury, experience, never played OLB...Has never been a full-time starter....

I like Barwin too, but I am not sold that he is going to be THE guy.

The Pencil Neck
03-30-2011, 09:41 PM
For the most part I agree with you in fixing whats broken with established players but when we move Quin who was the teams best CB and insert him at FS , even if the guy signed in FA is better .... we still have Jackson on the other side falling down. Unless by some miracle he turns it around , they need at least two CB's if Quin is moved.
If Quin isnt moved , they need one top tier CB and can move Jackson to the bench or nickle where he should have been last year rather than starting from day one.

So you either have Nolan or Nolan & Quin at the safeties ....


The biggest issue for me is not knowing what you are going to end up with in FA prior to the draft. I think this has to change your thinking going into the draft , filling holes becomes a priority since who knows what you end up with in FA. You almost have to prepare thru the draft as if there were no FA period.

The Texans gaping holes are at CB and both S spots. (Like we didnt already know that). I'd hate to go into FA and have the same **** we saw last season happen again .... get used and abused so a guy an get a better contract with the team of his choice. (doesnt that sem to happen to the Texans an awful lot ?) Dance with that player and then be left at the altar without a suitable replacement. That leaves the team in an awful spot , probably having to overpay for .... an inferior player out of desperation.

Personally, I don't think that KJ is nearly as bad as a lot of others on this board think he is. I think KJs biggest problems last year (besides being a rook) was his lack of safety support and them trying to teach him a weird half-slide technique that basically gave up the sidelines. If we improve the safeties and if we go back to standard CB technique, I think KJ will be fine.

And except for Peterson, I'm not sold on the upper echelon CBs in this draft being an upgrade at CB over GQ or KJ. I think Amukamara is very over-rated. And when it comes to safeties, which is where I think we really need to concentrate, those guys will be in the 2nd-4th round and I think we can get better in FA.

I'd be fine going GQ and KJ at CB as long as we got two good safeties in FA because I think that was our biggest problem in pass defense. And then I'm fine with us drafting a couple of safeties as well with the understanding that they probably wouldn't need to be pressed immediately into service.

Lucky
03-30-2011, 10:53 PM
If we improve the safeties and if we go back to standard CB technique, I think KJ will be fine.
That is possible. The safety play was brutal and the coaching was incompetent. But...

Kareem Jackson was atrocious. He very well could be fixable, but his poor play is not being overstated. And he should not be handed a job, as Okoye and David Carr were before him. Jackson must face competition for a spot on the field.

In a perfect world, the Texans sign two vet CBs. A #1 CB type, and a mid level FA. Someone for Jackson to compete with. If that's not possible, then I would not hesitate to take another CB in the draft. Preferrably in the 2nd or 3rd round, though Amukamara shouldn't be totally dismissed in the 1st round.

The Texans really need 3 CBs they can count on. Right now, they have zero.

Corrosion
03-30-2011, 10:56 PM
That is possible. The safety play was brutal and the coaching was incompetent. But...

Kareem Jackson was atrocious. He very well could be fixable, but his poor play is not being overstated. And he should not be handed a job, as Okoye and David Carr were before him. Jackson must face competition for a spot on the field.

In a perfect world, the Texans sign two vet CBs. A #1 CB type, and a mid level FA. Someone for Jackson to compete with. If that's not possible, then I would not hesitate to take another CB in the draft. Preferrably in the 2nd or 3rd round, though Amukamara shouldn't be totally dismissed in the 1st round.

The Texans really need 3 CBs they can count on. Right now, they have zero.

And who knows whats possible with no FA period prior to the draft .... they may strike out in FA and be left with a buncha ??????'s in the secondary again. :gun:

steelbtexan
03-30-2011, 11:26 PM
How would you guys feel about drafting Aaron Williams in the 1st rd and moving him to S?

He ran a 4.4 at his pro day. He has good ball skills and is a very good tackler. Williams can also drop down and play the slot WR if needed. That's a big plus in todays disguising of defenses. In my mind he's comparable to E.Thomas who was a top 15 pick last yr.

Williams is worth the Texans pick as a S. I dont pay alot of attention to the draftniks rankings and go by what I see.

Dutchrudder
03-30-2011, 11:47 PM
How would you guys feel about drafting Aaron Williams in the 1st rd and moving him to S?

He ran a 4.4 at his pro day. He has good ball skills and is a very good tackler. Williams can also drop down and play the slot WR if needed. That's a big plus in todays disguising of defenses. In my mind he's comparable to E.Thomas who was a top 15 pick last yr.

Williams is worth the Texans pick as a S. I dont pay alot of attention to the draftniks rankings and go by what I see.

I think The texans would be better off using the 1st on an Olb/DE and trading up to the top of the second to grab Williams. You could use the 2nd and 4th to trade with NE or Denver if you don't think he will make it to 42. Might be able to get it done with a 5th if the team is desperate for more picks, like Denver or Cincy.

The Pencil Neck
03-31-2011, 12:18 AM
That is possible. The safety play was brutal and the coaching was incompetent. But...

Kareem Jackson was atrocious. He very well could be fixable, but his poor play is not being overstated. And he should not be handed a job, as Okoye and David Carr were before him. Jackson must face competition for a spot on the field.

In a perfect world, the Texans sign two vet CBs. A #1 CB type, and a mid level FA. Someone for Jackson to compete with. If that's not possible, then I would not hesitate to take another CB in the draft. Preferrably in the 2nd or 3rd round, though Amukamara shouldn't be totally dismissed in the 1st round.

The Texans really need 3 CBs they can count on. Right now, they have zero.

What I'd really, REALLY like to do is get a #1 CB type, a FS, and a SS via FA.

AND then use rounds 2-4 to pick up a CB, a FS, and a SS.

Then I'd like all those guys to fight it out to determine which 2 CBs, which FS, and which SS end up on the field.

The Pencil Neck
03-31-2011, 12:28 AM
How would you guys feel about drafting Aaron Williams in the 1st rd and moving him to S?

He ran a 4.4 at his pro day. He has good ball skills and is a very good tackler. Williams can also drop down and play the slot WR if needed. That's a big plus in todays disguising of defenses. In my mind he's comparable to E.Thomas who was a top 15 pick last yr.

Williams is worth the Texans pick as a S. I dont pay alot of attention to the draftniks rankings and go by what I see.

I just don't see him at #11. But this brings up something I brought up in another thread, if we can trade back a few picks in the first round and pick up a couple of picks, then we could bundle those picks and our second and trade back up into the 1st round so that we have 2 1st round picks or a 1st and an early 2nd.

Then we could pick up a Akeem Ayers, Phil Taylor, or Justin Houston AND an Aaron Williams, Davon House, or Brandon Harris. And then later on, we could pick up some more DB help.

Now, I know that's easier said than done, but it has been done before. We'd just have to find the right partners.

Corrosion
03-31-2011, 12:16 PM
If you go by the theory that the Texans defense cant be fixed in one offseason.

Thats about the size of it. They just have too many holes to fill and the move to the 3-4 added to that creating needs at OLB and NT to go along with SS , FS and CB.
The fact that they need to add not only starters but depth at many of those positions - especially FS , SS and OLB just makes the task that much more difficult. They arent looking for just five guys to man those positions , they are looking for nine or so. Even if they manage to fill all the holes , one injury could unravel the whole thing if they dont find quality depth at those positions. That just seems like an awful lot to ask for in one offseason.


Add in the fact that who know what the hell is going to happen with FA and we have a recipe for disaster.
McNair better be prepared to open up the purse in FA this time.

I just don't see him at #11. But this brings up something I brought up in another thread, if we can trade back a few picks in the first round and pick up a couple of picks, then we could bundle those picks and our second and trade back up into the 1st round so that we have 2 1st round picks or a 1st and an early 2nd.

Then we could pick up a Akeem Ayers, Phil Taylor, or Justin Houston AND an Aaron Williams, Davon House, or Brandon Harris. And then later on, we could pick up some more DB help.

Now, I know that's easier said than done, but it has been done before. We'd just have to find the right partners.

Ideally this is what I'd like to see happen as well .... and its quite possible that one or more of these players slips to the 2nd round.

76Texan
03-31-2011, 11:08 PM
What I've been thinking about (and you've watched the tape on Wade's defense, so you may have a feel for this) is this: Instead of moving Cushing inside, put him on the outside as a SAM and then have Barwin/Anderson/Whoever play as a Rush LB, and then Demeco and Sharpton (or a draft pick) play the inside spots.

Is that feasible or is Cushing better suited to go inside in Wade's scheme? I know Wade has mentioned possibly moving him inside but what do you think will happen?

Many of us fans, including myself, love to see Cushing creating havoc on the line; but I also see why he can also be a force as an ILB in a 3-4 with some examples to follow (the 2 Ints he created against the Giants) and adding that to the fact that he's been one of the two LBs in our nickel package, which Wade also uses often against a spread offense like the Colts.

76Texan
03-31-2011, 11:15 PM
While I'm at it, I might as well bring up a few other observations pertaining the 3-4

In the Giants game, for example, on 2nd and 4 (around the 7:30 mark in the first), the Texans lined up in a standard 3-4 with Mitchell at the nose, shading the Center slightly.

Okoye and Smith were at DE; Smith actually took his hand off the ground and played standing up as he moved in to straddle one B gap (Okoye was in the other B gap).

Both Mario and Cushing played with hands off the ground as OLB, each on the outside of a TE as the Giants were in a balance 2-TE, 2-WR set.

Demeco and Diles were the ILBs.

This is just one real example of Mario and Cushing playing as OLB in a 3-4.

Well, actually this was just a 2-man front with Smith also play standing up.

It goes to show a name like DT, DE, NT, LB is just that, semantics.
Whether Smith was a 3-4 DE or a LB is irrelevant as he made the move to get off the ground pretty quickly just before the snap.

A guy like Mario can line up as an OLB and put his hand onto the ground at the last second to get better leverage if he chooses to do so; either way, he's still a 9-tech.

76Texan
03-31-2011, 11:20 PM
10:30 third qtr
3-14 Giants were in a shotgun spreadl; 2 TEs and 3 WRs.
Texans were in a 3-man front. (This is the 10th play in the game in which they weren't in a 4-man front). It resulted in an INT for McManis.

Okoye just insidethe RT; Mario on the same side, outside the 1st TE 89 K. Boss.
The third D-lineman, Smith, lined up on the other side, outside the second TE (47 Beckum).

Cushing lined up over the RG, about 3 yds off the LOS;
Demeco was over the C, about 6 yds off the line.

The Texans were in a dime package (3 linemen, 2 LBs, 4DBs and 2 safeties); so they would be in prevent defense, right?
We shall see!

The Texans would drop the 4 DBs in the underneath zones.
Demeco would drop deep in the middle together with the safeties to form a 3-deep, 4-underneath zone (tampa 2).

(This is what Eli saw just after the snap; he can clearly see Demeco dropping back deep).

The Texans, however, sent Smith attacking inside the RT, allowing Cushing to stunt to the outside, unblocked, as the RG ran into his buddy, the RT.
Cushing chased Elito his left.
The TE Beckum (on Smith's side) ran a slant, also to the left.
Nice and dandy, Eli thought.
McManis had other ideas though.
He realized that the play was broken with Eli being chased on the way out of the pocket.
McManis did the right thing by abandoning his zone to follow the TE Beckum across the field.
Eli thought McManis would stay in his zone so that his second TE Beckum would be open and threw the ball to him without even looking (it's kinda hard with Cushing hotly on your trail and Okoye staring you in the face.)
McManis jumped ahead of the throw to pull in the INT.

But this play is about Cushing at the ILB spot in a 3-4 though.
(Such a stunt is hard to choreograph with a 4-man line; too many bodies on the line, most likely resulting in a TE staying back to block).
This one is called an ILB Blast in the 3-4.

As Smith faked an outside move then attacked the RT to the inside (B gap), Cushing stepped up hard straight at the RG. The Cush would fake an inside rush (A gap) which took the RG's attention away from what was happening to his outside. Therefore, when Cushing made the move to the outside, the RG turned and got caught in the RT's block on Smith.

It took everything that Cushing tested out during the combine and his pro day and more training (the off-the-field stuffs aside) to pull such a stunt.

I don't think any of the ILBs in this draft has such a combination:
- Short-area explosiveness in a massive frame that makes a Guard leary as he braces for the oncoming storm, thus limiting his peripheral vision.
- The flexibility to change direction (to the outside) quickly to get past the RT before he can switch.
- The flexibility to change direction again, back to the inside in pursuit of the QB.

We don't have another guy like that on the roster; there are not many guys like that in the NFL.
So, this is the thing that Cushing can bring as an ILB in the 3-4


There's probably highlight videos at NFL.com for both INTs.

76Texan
03-31-2011, 11:32 PM
Next series, another INT; this time , the benificiary was Jackson.

3rd and 15 found the Giants in the same formation as they were in on the previous INT.
It's time for the Texans prevent defense in a 3-man front again (sarcasm smiley here!)
Texans in pretty much the same defense up front, except that Mario and Smith traded places.
In the secondary, the Texans went with a 2-deep, man-under coverage.

This time, Cushing had an even more daunting task.
He would step up on the RG as before, but then had to go all the way around to the other side: around the C, the LG, Okoye, Smith, and the LT.
He decked Eli as he (the QB) left the ball a little short for Jackson to make the play.

I don't know too many ILBs in the NFL who can do what Cushing did here.
It took a little while (slightly less than 3 secs), but that was a long way to go.

Side Notes:

1. Mario would have had a sack if they didn't double him up with the TE & the RT (before Cushing get there).

2. One-on-one coverage for Jackson (who could have sustained coverage longer than just 3 secs.) and the boy can still read the QB and locate the ball.
It would be easier for a CB when he sits in a zone and can afford the time to read the QB.

3. Just shortly before this play - on 2nd and 10 - the Texans were in a standard 3-4 defense with Mario and Diles as OLBs.
The Texans also brought Pollard in on a blitz.
Mario dropped to the outside flat and could have had an INT if Eli didn't throw the ball so high out of bound.

76Texan
04-01-2011, 10:31 AM
To finishf off the notes for this game; the Texans were in a 4-man front only 10 more times (for the rest of the game).
They were in a 3-man front about 13 or 14 times, some of them a standard 3-4.
Mario played OLB in all instances.
The Texans also were in an all-LB front once.
(Besides a few goal-line 5-man front).

Also, remember I said that even when the Texans were in a 4-man front, many times, they were like a 3-man front.
And that our 4-2 (nickel package) is the same as Wade employs.

To sum it up, the Texans played very much like a Wade's team up front in this game as well.

There are games in which the Texans used a 4-man front predominantly; I imagine it was up to the coaches to decide on the game plan against different teams.
Going with a 4-man front or a 3-man front were a choice they made.

But also, there was a stretch in which we lost a lot of LBs and/or many of them weren't quite healthy.

powda
04-01-2011, 11:05 AM
Many of us fans, including myself, love to see Cushing creating havoc on the line; but I also see why he can also be a force as an ILB in a 3-4...

My original reaction to Wade Phillips intent to line Cushing up at ILB was not good. Cushing is a solid blitzer when given the opportunity and he has played signifigantly better outside then inside. He is an instinctual player. I want him to attack without focusing on assignments (a position change means more time thinking and worse reaction time.)

However,

Cushing is better in traffic near the line then in space. If Cushing is inside he can attack the run almost freely. If he is lined up outside he has containment reposnsibilites.

I wonder how much we should be considering a top inside linebacker rather then an outside linebacker. Are Phillips' comments a smoke screen?

I wonder if 4 new starters is a realistic goal in 1 offseason? If so then 2 years is more then enough time.

JimBaker488
04-01-2011, 10:04 PM
I'd really like to share your enthusiasm for Cushing 76er, but what I saw last year playing SAM for the Texans was a fairly ordinary 3rd or 4th round calibre talent.

LikeMike
04-02-2011, 01:22 PM
We have too many needs to fix in just one offseason - if we ain`t really active in FA (and if there is FS). We desperately need:

1 NT
1 OLB
1 CB
1 FS
1 SS

and we should add:

1 DE
another OLB, CB, FS, SS

And that`s just talking defense. On Offense we could use some more help at the line and perhaps another WR - on special teams another P.

So, we have at least 5 glaring holes on defense. You can`t expect to fill them all - and most of the other players need to learn the 3-4. Since the draft is before the FA this year, just take the best player in a position of need - or trade down. Im thinking probably OLB 1st, a S second and a NT third... I wouldnt want to draft a CB or NT early, those players should be acquired in FA.

If this organisation is serious about winning now, you probably have to overpay one or two FAs.

The Pencil Neck
04-02-2011, 01:52 PM
We have too many needs to fix in just one offseason - if we ain`t really active in FA (and if there is FS). We desperately need:

1 NT
1 OLB
1 CB
1 FS
1 SS


The thing is... almost all teams have needs and holes and that includes lots of playoff and Super Bowl teams. The Rams and Ravens SB teams come to mind.

We don't have to solve all of our problems in one offseason. Our coaching staff and GM just have to make the right decisions about which needs to address and how best to play to our strengths and away from our weaknesses.

That's something that good coaching staffs and GMs do and something that none of our coaching staffs and GMs have been able to do in the course of our history. It's up to Wade and Smith to make the defense work and be moderately respectable and it's up to Dennison and Kubiak to continue to improve our offense.

Corrosion
04-03-2011, 06:17 PM
The thing is... almost all teams have needs and holes and that includes lots of playoff and Super Bowl teams. The Rams and Ravens SB teams come to mind.

We don't have to solve all of our problems in one offseason. Our coaching staff and GM just have to make the right decisions about which needs to address and how best to play to our strengths and away from our weaknesses.

That's something that good coaching staffs and GMs do and something that none of our coaching staffs and GMs have been able to do in the course of our history. It's up to Wade and Smith to make the defense work and be moderately respectable and it's up to Dennison and Kubiak to continue to improve our offense.

If Kubiak wasnt on the hot seat , I'd agree with you. But considering its playoffs or bust .... they have to solve just about every personel issue.

Honestly I think they put themselves in a deep hole by letting both safety's go when the secondary was already a problem. They have little to no depth behind those players meaning they have to not only find starters but depth as well ..... It would have made more sense to me to keep at least one of those guy's and try to upgrade on the fly.

Moving from a 43 to a 34 front means they have even more positions to fill .... OLB - probably need to find 2-3 of them. ILB , they will need depth behind Cushing and Ryans - pending Ryans returns to form. NT - Im not convinced that anyone on the current roster is capable of getting the job done on a regular basis.

Then we cant forget CB ....


This was an awful big gamble by the team in a critical year for the current staff.

Rey
04-03-2011, 06:23 PM
Honestly I think they put themselves in a deep hole by letting both safety's go when the secondary was already a problem.

Depends on what their plans are...

If they are planning on moving Quinn to FS and letting Nolan duke it out with someone for the SS position then I think they will be o.k there.

And I know that the DB's (well...really the entire defense) played poorly last year, but I think they were made to look worse by the coaching staff.

Quinn/draft pick or FA at FS....And Nolan/Draft pick/FA at SS...

Maybe they felt like Nolan was a better fit than Pollard at SS....IMO, he played the pass better last year than Pollard, and he made more plays than Wilson...

The Pencil Neck
04-03-2011, 10:31 PM
If Kubiak wasnt on the hot seat , I'd agree with you. But considering its playoffs or bust .... they have to solve just about every personel issue.

Honestly I think they put themselves in a deep hole by letting both safety's go when the secondary was already a problem. They have little to no depth behind those players meaning they have to not only find starters but depth as well ..... It would have made more sense to me to keep at least one of those guy's and try to upgrade on the fly.

Moving from a 43 to a 34 front means they have even more positions to fill .... OLB - probably need to find 2-3 of them. ILB , they will need depth behind Cushing and Ryans - pending Ryans returns to form. NT - Im not convinced that anyone on the current roster is capable of getting the job done on a regular basis.

Then we cant forget CB ....


This was an awful big gamble by the team in a critical year for the current staff.

Like I said, I think it's entirely possible to make the playoffs last year without fixing every problem.

I don't think that CB needs to be addressed in the draft and I don't think it should be. Although I think we should pick up a good young safety in this draft, this is frankly not the greatest year for safeties. I'd prefer we find a way to fix the Safety position via FA.

Demeco in the middle bothers me a little bit. Although we've got Bentley and Sharpton backing him up, I think we should look at ILB a little later in the draft.

I think we need to draft two, good rush linebackers and an NT that we expect to start or get significant playing time and we need to draft an inside linebacker as insurance who may get significant PT. If the right safety is there at the right time, we need to take him. Then we get at least 1 FA CB and at least 1 FA S. And you've effectively hit all the positions except the DEs and one ILB.

And I think that's totally doable.

Corrosion
04-03-2011, 11:06 PM
Depends on what their plans are...

If they are planning on moving Quinn to FS and letting Nolan duke it out with someone for the SS position then I think they will be o.k there.

And I know that the DB's (well...really the entire defense) played poorly last year, but I think they were made to look worse by the coaching staff.

Quinn/draft pick or FA at FS....And Nolan/Draft pick/FA at SS...

Maybe they felt like Nolan was a better fit than Pollard at SS....IMO, he played the pass better last year than Pollard, and he made more plays than Wilson...

Ok , so Quin moves to FS and Nolan works out - There is still no depth behind them , probably need at least two capable guy's there or one injury can wreck the whole thing.
Then we have created a hole at CB by moving the teams best corner to FS so that becomes a position of need unless you are comfortable with the combination of Allen and oh **** Jackson fell down. Then you have to consider the depth behind those two - Brice McCain , Sherrick McManis and Antuan Molden. Again , one injury away from disaster.

Best case in the secondary they need two players to back up at FS/SS a starter at CB and at least one more player for depth purposes.

Those backups generally play on ST.

Thats four players in the secondary alone and we havent even gotten to the LB's or DL.

OLB at least two guy's and preferably three because I'd hate like hell to count on Barwin being 100% and come time to suit up for game one he cant go or isnt effective.

ILB I'd be OK with a healthy Ryans , a full camp and season for Cushing with Sharpton backing them up but we really dont know if Ryans will be the same player much less if he will be ready for opening day. Remember the issue with DD a few years back at RB , they gambled on his return from an injury and .... well they paid a heavy price.


DT- 0k0y3 is not going to fit at DT (although he may fit into the DE spot in the 34 but Im not gonna hold my breath). That leaves the team with Mitchell and Cody .... I dont expect the two of them to man the position for the season , gotta have help there. That position is likely the key to a successful 34 scheme , I'd like to have a guy there that demanded a double team at all times. Might not be able to get that guy but the need for help is a real one behind Mitchell and Cody.


They are looking at filling 9 roster spots on the defensive side of the ball even if they arent all starters , they all have to contribute and be ready in case of injury.

Thats an awful lot to do in one offseason.

The Pencil Neck
04-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Thats an awful lot to do in one offseason.

And that's why they get paid the big bucks.

Corrosion
04-04-2011, 05:32 PM
And that's why they get paid the big bucks.

To put it mildly , Smith has a full plate this offseason ..... well , that is if there is a next season. :rake:

Rey
04-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Ok , so Quin moves to FS and Nolan works out - There is still no depth behind them , probably need at least two capable guy's there or one injury can wreck the whole thing.
Then we have created a hole at CB by moving the teams best corner to FS so that becomes a position of need unless you are comfortable with the combination of Allen and oh **** Jackson fell down. Then you have to consider the depth behind those two - Brice McCain , Sherrick McManis and Antuan Molden. Again , one injury away from disaster.

Best case in the secondary they need two players to back up at FS/SS a starter at CB and at least one more player for depth purposes.

Those backups generally play on ST.

Thats four players in the secondary alone and we havent even gotten to the LB's or DL.

OLB at least two guy's and preferably three because I'd hate like hell to count on Barwin being 100% and come time to suit up for game one he cant go or isnt effective.

ILB I'd be OK with a healthy Ryans , a full camp and season for Cushing with Sharpton backing them up but we really dont know if Ryans will be the same player much less if he will be ready for opening day. Remember the issue with DD a few years back at RB , they gambled on his return from an injury and .... well they paid a heavy price.


DT- 0k0y3 is not going to fit at DT (although he may fit into the DE spot in the 34 but Im not gonna hold my breath). That leaves the team with Mitchell and Cody .... I dont expect the two of them to man the position for the season , gotta have help there. That position is likely the key to a successful 34 scheme , I'd like to have a guy there that demanded a double team at all times. Might not be able to get that guy but the need for help is a real one behind Mitchell and Cody.


They are looking at filling 9 roster spots on the defensive side of the ball even if they arent all starters , they all have to contribute and be ready in case of injury.

Thats an awful lot to do in one offseason.

I disagree. Kinda.....:kitten:

I think the Texans have to get more quality players than 9...

Right now we are counting on a bunch of guys who don't know a whole lot about playing 3-4 in the NFL and two guys coming off season ending injuries that we hope can be significant contributors(Barwin, Ryans). Not a single DB on the roster that we can hang our hat on. No big wide bodies to put on the line. Nobody that I really feel comfortable with taking a bunch of snaps at the nose. Mario, who constantly has nagging injuries and plays like it...Cushing, who seems to have lost his edge after getting off of the juice....

If Wade can get this defense playing at an even respectable level he will truly have my respect as a D-coordinator.

LikeMike
04-04-2011, 09:23 PM
I disagree. Kinda.....:kitten:

I think the Texans have to get more quality players than 9...

Right now we are counting on a bunch of guys who don't know a whole lot about playing 3-4 in the NFL and two guys coming off season ending injuries that we hope can be significant contributors(Barwin, Ryans). Not a single DB on the roster that we can hang our hat on. No big wide bodies to put on the line. Nobody that I really feel comfortable with taking a bunch of snaps at the nose. Mario, who constantly has nagging injuries and plays like it...Cushing, who seems to have lost his edge after getting off of the juice....

If Wade can get this defense playing at an even respectable level he will truly have my respect as a D-coordinator.

I disagree with your disagreeing ;-).

If we can get 4 solid starters on defense we should be alright: 1 CB (KJ and Allen will be fine as 2nd and 3d corner), 1 S (Quinn should be serviceable as the other), 1 NT and 1 OLB (Barwin should be fine as the other). You usually can find depth in latter rounds, as UDFA or in FA. But this defense:

MW-NEW-Smith
NEW-Ryans-Cushing-Barwin
New-Quin-NEW-KJ/Allen

Should do alright. Of course you have to bet on some guys coming of injuries, but most teams have to do so - and Im pretty confident that they will be all right.

But finding those 4 starters will be the hard part. If we can get 2 via draft, Id consider that a pretty good draft.

Corrosion
04-04-2011, 11:00 PM
I disagree. Kinda.....:kitten:

I think the Texans have to get more quality players than 9...

Right now we are counting on a bunch of guys who don't know a whole lot about playing 3-4 in the NFL and two guys coming off season ending injuries that we hope can be significant contributors(Barwin, Ryans). Not a single DB on the roster that we can hang our hat on. No big wide bodies to put on the line. Nobody that I really feel comfortable with taking a bunch of snaps at the nose. Mario, who constantly has nagging injuries and plays like it...Cushing, who seems to have lost his edge after getting off of the juice....

If Wade can get this defense playing at an even respectable level he will truly have my respect as a D-coordinator.

Pretty much what Im saying - they have to find "At Least Nine" quality players on one side of the ball. In a perfect world where Barwin and Ryans return healthy and do what we expect each to do and nine is all they need ....

I disagree with your disagreeing ;-).

If we can get 4 solid starters on defense we should be alright: 1 CB (KJ and Allen will be fine as 2nd and 3d corner), 1 S (Quinn should be serviceable as the other), 1 NT and 1 OLB (Barwin should be fine as the other). You usually can find depth in latter rounds, as UDFA or in FA. But this defense:

MW-NEW-Smith
NEW-Ryans-Cushing-Barwin
New-Quin-NEW-KJ/Allen

Should do alright. Of course you have to bet on some guys coming of injuries, but most teams have to do so - and Im pretty confident that they will be all right.

But finding those 4 starters will be the hard part. If we can get 2 via draft, Id consider that a pretty good draft.

Sure four guy's fill the holes and thats fine for Week 1 .... If you are Ok with KJ , "Mr. Sorry Coach I Fell Down" and Allen as two of your top three corners and moving what was your best CB to a new position.

But they also have to have quality depth or .... well , take a look at what happened when Ryans went down last season 4-2 before 2-8 after.


Four starters and a bunch of UDFA's just aint gonna cut it .... thats one play away from disaster.

HJam72
04-05-2011, 04:13 AM
But they also have to have quality depth or .... well , take a look at what happened when Ryans went down last season 4-2 before 2-8 after.


Holy crap, that's projects to 10-5-1 compared to 3-12-1. :thinking: