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Lucky
03-22-2011, 01:31 AM
McNair keeps yapping (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7483737.html) and McClain keeps writing it down.

When the lockout ends and the NFL resumes business as usual, McNair said the Texans will be active in free agency.


"We're prepared for the draft and free agency," he said. "If free agency happens tomorrow, we know who we have an interest in. We've zeroed in on what we think our needs are, and we know who the people are who can help. We're ready to move. We haven't slacked off one bit.


"If there's a veteran player out there who can really help our team, we'll go after them, but we're not going to pay more than we think they're worth. We're not going to do something we think is crazy.


"It's more important to us to keep that core group of players together, so a lot of that money is used to re-sign our players. We also want to pick up additional players as we can, but most of our dollars go to keeping our players as they come up."

Yeah, we wouldn't want to see anything crazy. Like keeping a coach and GM (and "core group") who've done squat for 5 years. Or playing the youngest set of CBs in NFL history. I could be much more confident about the Texans chances in 2011 if McNair would just shut his pie hole.

buddyboy
03-22-2011, 02:29 AM
McNair keeps yapping (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7483737.html) and McClain keeps writing it down.


Yeah, we wouldn't want to see anything crazy. Like keeping a coach and GM (and "core group") who've done squat for 5 years. Or playing the youngest set of CBs in NFL history. I could be much more confident about the Texans chances in 2011 if McNair would just shut his pie hole.

I'd be more concerned if McNair came out and said, "you know what, we really NEED to get just about anyone. We are desperate to get that big name FA."

Bye bye leverage. Anyway, it's lose lose for anyone in the Texans' FO right now, fans are going to twist words to fit their criticisms regardless of what they say.

Wolf6151
03-22-2011, 04:34 AM
I have to agree with Lucky on this one "We're not going to do something we think is crazy", yea because what you've been doing for the last 5 yrs. is working so well and that core group of players is doing so well they've earned 1 winning season going 9-7. It's scary that McNair really thinks they're on the right track and doing things the right way.

nero THE zero
03-22-2011, 10:51 AM
I'd be more concerned if McNair came out and said, "you know what, we really NEED to get just about anyone. We are desperate to get that big name FA."

Bye bye leverage. Anyway, it's lose lose for anyone in the Texans' FO right now, fans are going to twist words to fit their criticisms regardless of what they say.

Leverage only matters when it is used. This has nothing to do with leverage and has everything to do with the team's philosophy. They're simply not going to go out and throw money at players. McNair says it himself; he'll spend money on his own players and "build through the draft."

Be prepared for the Texans to bring in a second rate CB to pair with Kareem Jackson. That is what McNair is telling you is going to happen.

nero THE zero
03-22-2011, 10:52 AM
I have to agree with Lucky on this one "We're not going to do something we think is crazy", yea because what you've been doing for the last 5 yrs. is working so well and that core group of players is doing so well they've earned 1 winning season going 9-7. It's scary that McNair really thinks they're on the right track and doing things the right way.

It's not that his philosophy is flawed. There are some great teams that do it this way. The problem the Texans have is that building through the draft only works when you're good at drafting. They're not.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 11:03 AM
we're not going to pay more than we think they're worth

Goodbye Aso, it was nice to dream. If you're not willing to pay top 3 $ to a top 3 guy, another team surely will. Bob, maybe YOU think top-tier free agents aren't worth the investment, but then you've never been to the playoffs either.

El Tejano
03-22-2011, 11:16 AM
Goodbye Aso, it was nice to dream. If you're not willing to pay top 3 $ to a top 3 guy, another team surely will. Bob, maybe YOU think top-tier free agents aren't worth the investment, but then you've never been to the playoffs either.

Yep. The exact translation word for word.

HoustonFrog
03-22-2011, 11:19 AM
McNair keeps yapping (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7483737.html) and McClain keeps writing it down.


Yeah, we wouldn't want to see anything crazy. Like keeping a coach and GM (and "core group") who've done squat for 5 years. Or playing the youngest set of CBs in NFL history. I could be much more confident about the Texans chances in 2011 if McNair would just shut his pie hole.

Word!

I said the same awhile back. This guy just sounds like he wants to keep tooting the mediocre horn. "We are going to hold back money to keep the core group of guys who have done nothing. More years for everyone...players and coached. Good guys yah! Cheers."

Second Honeymoon
03-22-2011, 12:37 PM
please go **** yourself, McNair. just continue doing what you do best, being an abysmal failure and a bad owner.

it has worked out so well to date. at least you have great fans like 'Joe Texan' who don't really care how much you suck, as long as you keep rolling out crap they will keep buying it....but rest assured, most of your good fans aren't as naive as those type of fans.

At the end fo the day, your franchise is a joke and you are committed to one thing. $$$$$. so please spare us the dog and pony show. the day you decided to keep not just Rick or Gary, but both...told me all I needed to know about you. You are a pile of crap and I hope you go away and take this pathetic franchise with you. You will not be missed.

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 01:00 PM
This is a ridiculous thread. I get it. You aren't happy with the losing. Still, though, why does that mean fans are justified in taking every quote out of context and using it as another jumping off point for a ***** session?

He said they aren't going to radically overpay for a free agent. This is a problem for someone? If it is, go enjoy the Washington Redskins organization. Some of you same board members were outraged that we "overpaid" for Antonio Smith. The Texans thought he was worth the money, outbid the rest of the NFL for him and he has been highly productive.

This year's free agency crop is the strongest group of players, particularly on defense, in five or more years. Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do. The Texans are consistently in the top third of the league in payroll. It is the winning that has been a problem, not the willingness to utilize financial resources. The past few free agent markets have been abysmal. For instance, the two best available CBs in FA last year were: Dunta Robinson and Leigh Bodden. Did you really want the Texans to spend the money it took to get those guys?

Perhaps you would prefer them to return to the overspending philosophy under Casserly?

Todd Wade
Zac Weigert
Robaire Smith
Seth Payne
Gary walker... all getting ridiculous contracts... yep, that worked out real well.

Hardcore Texan
03-22-2011, 01:42 PM
This is a ridiculous thread. I get it. You aren't happy with the losing. Still, though, why does that mean fans are justified in taking every quote out of context and using it as another jumping off point for a ***** session?

He said they aren't going to radically overpay for a free agent. This is a problem for someone? If it is, go enjoy the Washington Redskins organization. Some of you same board members were outraged that we "overpaid" for Antonio Smith. The Texans thought he was worth the money, outbid the rest of the NFL for him and he has been highly productive.

This year's free agency crop is the strongest group of players, particularly on defense, in five or more years. Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do. The Texans are consistently in the top third of the league in payroll. It is the winning that has been a problem, not the willingness to utilize financial resources. The past few free agent markets have been abysmal. For instance, the two best available CBs in FA last year were: Dunta Robinson and Leigh Bodden. Did you really want the Texans to spend the money it took to get those guys?

Perhaps you would prefer them to return to the overspending philosophy under Casserly?

Todd Wade
Zac Weigert
Robaire Smith
Seth Payne
Gary walker... all getting ridiculous contracts... yep, that worked out real well.

Please don't bring logic and reason into this......just grab a pitchfork and join in!

Tailgate
03-22-2011, 01:42 PM
This is a ridiculous thread. I get it. You aren't happy with the losing. Still, though, why does that mean fans are justified in taking every quote out of context and using it as another jumping off point for a ***** session?

He said they aren't going to radically overpay for a free agent. This is a problem for someone? If it is, go enjoy the Washington Redskins organization. Some of you same board members were outraged that we "overpaid" for Antonio Smith. The Texans thought he was worth the money, outbid the rest of the NFL for him and he has been highly productive.

This year's free agency crop is the strongest group of players, particularly on defense, in five or more years. Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do. The Texans are consistently in the top third of the league in payroll. It is the winning that has been a problem, not the willingness to utilize financial resources. The past few free agent markets have been abysmal. For instance, the two best available CBs in FA last year were: Dunta Robinson and Leigh Bodden. Did you really want the Texans to spend the money it took to get those guys?

Perhaps you would prefer them to return to the overspending philosophy under Casserly?

Todd Wade
Zac Weigert
Robaire Smith
Seth Payne
Gary walker... all getting ridiculous contracts... yep, that worked out real well.

Agreed. But what I think everyone is upset about is how he said we are not going to overpay anyone more than we think they are worth. Sometimes you have to overpay to land who you want and make that sacrifice in order to help the team in a desperate area. He also says we are not going to do anything that they think is crazy. It very well may take a crazy amount to land a top FA CB this year. So I can see both sides.

Hardcore Texan
03-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Paying top dollar for Aso = not crazy.

Paying top dollar for Haynesworth = crazy.

jaayteetx
03-22-2011, 01:52 PM
please go **** yourself, McNair. just continue doing what you do best, being an abysmal failure and a bad owner.

it has worked out so well to date. at least you have great fans like 'Joe Texan' who don't really care how much you suck, as long as you keep rolling out crap they will keep buying it....but rest assured, most of your good fans aren't as naive as those type of fans.

At the end fo the day, your franchise is a joke and you are committed to one thing. $$$$$. so please spare us the dog and pony show. the day you decided to keep not just Rick or Gary, but both...told me all I needed to know about you. You are a pile of crap and I hope you go away and take this pathetic franchise with you. You will not be missed.

Let me get this straight, you want the owner and his team to go away? And yet you still sport an an avatar supporting said team and post on a message board dedicated to them? Ok, makes sense I suppose.

houstonspartan
03-22-2011, 02:07 PM
This is a ridiculous thread. I get it. You aren't happy with the losing. Still, though, why does that mean fans are justified in taking every quote out of context and using it as another jumping off point for a ***** session?

He said they aren't going to radically overpay for a free agent. This is a problem for someone? If it is, go enjoy the Washington Redskins organization. Some of you same board members were outraged that we "overpaid" for Antonio Smith. The Texans thought he was worth the money, outbid the rest of the NFL for him and he has been highly productive.

This year's free agency crop is the strongest group of players, particularly on defense, in five or more years. Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do. The Texans are consistently in the top third of the league in payroll. It is the winning that has been a problem, not the willingness to utilize financial resources. The past few free agent markets have been abysmal. For instance, the two best available CBs in FA last year were: Dunta Robinson and Leigh Bodden. Did you really want the Texans to spend the money it took to get those guys?

Perhaps you would prefer them to return to the overspending philosophy under Casserly?

Todd Wade
Zac Weigert
Robaire Smith
Seth Payne
Gary walker... all getting ridiculous contracts... yep, that worked out real well.

Dale, we already know that you are perfectly fine with 6-10 as long as we rack up stats. What you fail to understand is that McNair has not earned the benefit of the doubt from his fans, and so every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned - with good reason.

This teams track record gives fans a basis on which to form opinions. And that's why, when people read McNair's quotes, they jump to conclusions. He has not given us any other reason not to.

Double Barrel
03-22-2011, 02:16 PM
Signing an elite player through free agency can be a very traumatic experience. :heat:

infantrycak
03-22-2011, 02:23 PM
Dale, we already know that you are perfectly fine with 6-10 as long as we rack up stats. What you fail to understand is that McNair has not earned the benefit of the doubt from his fans, and so every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned - with good reason.

This teams track record gives fans a basis on which to form opinions. And that's why, when people read McNair's quotes, they jump to conclusions. He has not given us any other reason not to.

Sure they have given us reason to doubt but not to lose all reason. Who are the most successful franchises around? - maybe Pittsburgh and New England, maybe throw in Indy. Do any of them go crazy in free agency? Do any of them overpay for players, even their own? No. I certainly want the Texans to be players in the free agent market when/if it happens but these remarks do not reflect a bad, aberrant or cheap philosophy.

HoustonFrog
03-22-2011, 02:36 PM
This is a ridiculous thread. I get it. You aren't happy with the losing. Still, though, why does that mean fans are justified in taking every quote out of context and using it as another jumping off point for a ***** session?

He said they aren't going to radically overpay for a free agent. This is a problem for someone? If it is, go enjoy the Washington Redskins organization. Some of you same board members were outraged that we "overpaid" for Antonio Smith. The Texans thought he was worth the money, outbid the rest of the NFL for him and he has been highly productive.

This year's free agency crop is the strongest group of players, particularly on defense, in five or more years. Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do. The Texans are consistently in the top third of the league in payroll. It is the winning that has been a problem, not the willingness to utilize financial resources. The past few free agent markets have been abysmal. For instance, the two best available CBs in FA last year were: Dunta Robinson and Leigh Bodden. Did you really want the Texans to spend the money it took to get those guys?

Perhaps you would prefer them to return to the overspending philosophy under Casserly?

Todd Wade
Zac Weigert
Robaire Smith
Seth Payne
Gary walker... all getting ridiculous contracts... yep, that worked out real well.

Why is it ridiculous? It isn't a pitchfork mentality. It is a frustration with an owner who doesn't seem to get it. You can point out, as Cak did, that there are teams that play it smartly and win but they also have used this philiosophy successfully and won and they have coaches, GMs and people in place to make it work. A philosophy is only as good as the people creating and executing it. So far the creators and executors of the Texans version have been a massive fail. Coach, GM, owner....stay the course. That is a fail.

Where was the failure last year? Defense. Who is on the market? Top player at his position. There is a difference between throwing money at the 5 mediocre players you named and going after a top guy. Why do you think The 49ers and Cowboys went after Deion...it brought another championship. Balancing money to keep guys who aren't getting it done and to fill in with "nice" FAs isn't something that has worked here so far. It is that simple. So until their version works, there is ample reason for people to wonder why they don't go and get a stud. That is sound logic. Become a winner. Try something else since in 9 years your way hasn't worked.

Overall what he is saying sounds prudent and nice but in reality is same story, different day. Running a post up offense is a nice philosophy unless you are running it with guys under 5'10.

infantrycak
03-22-2011, 02:51 PM
Where was the failure last year? Defense. Who is on the market? Top player at his position. There is a difference between throwing money at the 5 mediocre players you named and going after a top guy. Why do you think The 49ers and Cowboys went after Deion...it brought another championship.

The thing is McNair didn't say they would only go after mediocre players and that is the way it is being spun. They may want to pursue Aso but have placed an upper value on him of $15 mil per year. If he wants $22 mil per year then yeah they shouldn't overpay like that. In a capped league there is a price to be paid for over paying. There has to be a cut-off somewhere.

HoustonFrog
03-22-2011, 03:02 PM
The thing is McNair didn't say they would only go after mediocre players and that is the way it is being spun. They may want to pursue Aso but have placed an upper value on him of $15 mil per year. If he wants $22 mil per year then yeah they shouldn't overpay like that. In a capped league there is a price to be paid for over paying. There has to be a cut-off somewhere.

I agree in some part. And honestly, I didn't take it as he would only go after mediocre guys....you could get a Cromartie, who would fit, but he is sketchy background wise so I doubt he is here. I was just pointing out to Dale that those 5 guys weren't guys I'd consider top FA or near the top and they overpaid. I think at some point you have to get an instant upgrade and go outside the comfort zone when there are top tier guys that instantly make your weakness and plus. Rare guys.

infantrycak
03-22-2011, 03:09 PM
I agree in some part. And honestly, I didn't take it as he would only go after mediocre guys....you could get a Cromartie, who would fit, but he is sketchy. I was just pointing out to Dale that those 5 guys weren't guys I'd consider top FA or near the top and they overpaid. I think at some point you have to get an instant upgrade and go outside the comfort zone.

I hear you but historical context is important as well. Todd Wade was the top ranked OT FA that off-season. Anthony Weaver was the top DE FA that off-season. I believe Robaire was at the top or near it as well. Antonio Smith was the top or second DE that off-season. You can only sign what is available. Dale's point that on each there were howls of over paying accusations is correct as well. Antonio is the only one who has worked out. That is the bigger issue to me - either they aren't evaluating talent well or aren't utilizing it well or heck both. I think Wade will utilize the talent he is given well and can provide a lot of insight on evaluating D players.

McNair's comments were unseasoned oatmeal to me.

dc_txtech
03-22-2011, 03:24 PM
Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".

DexmanC
03-22-2011, 03:29 PM
I hear you but historical context is important as well. Todd Wade was the top ranked OT FA that off-season. Anthony Weaver was the top DE FA that off-season. I believe Robaire was at the top or near it as well. Antonio Smith was the top or second DE that off-season. You can only sign what is available. Dale's point that on each there were howls of over paying accusations is correct as well. Antonio is the only one who has worked out. That is the bigger issue to me - either they aren't evaluating talent well or aren't utilizing it well or heck both. I think Wade will utilize the talent he is given well and can provide a lot of insight on evaluating D players.

McNair's comments were unseasoned oatmeal to me.

That should go well with his Milquetoast breakfast.

Mr teX
03-22-2011, 03:47 PM
*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.

nero THE zero
03-22-2011, 03:53 PM
Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".

Obviously no one is going to disagree with that. No one wants to "overpay" for players. But, there's no objective measurement over what a player is worth and no concrete forecast as to how effective a player will be.

McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.

HoustonFrog
03-22-2011, 04:07 PM
*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.

What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.

El Tejano
03-22-2011, 04:11 PM
I'm not saying overpay for anyone. I'm saying, show us you are even going to try to get the dude. Heck, everything on paper says he wouldn't want to come here but show us the fans that you are doing whatever you can to try and get someone. Lie to us, do something. Come out and say "hey we called but his agent wouldn't even answer the phone." Show us you couldn't get him and so you then went after Ike Taylor or Weddle or someone.

Instead, all we have seen is Atogwe going to Redskins and this player going there and so on. Nothing on our end.

I know we can't do nothing with all this CBA caca but when FA starts up again, show us you are doing whatever you can to make this team better.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 04:17 PM
Why would anybody want to overpay for a free agent? Unless I am misunderstanding the definition of "overpay".

Here's Revis' deal:
Revis will sign a four-year contract, GM Mike Tannenbaum announced. He declined to discuss the amount, but a source said it's a $46 million deal, including $32 million in various guarantees. Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5538132)

46 mil/4 yrs = 11.5m/year

If you consider that contracts for a given position go UP over time, and that Aso will likely ask for MORE than Revis, I'd consider the starting point to be 12m/yr.

Now, what if Bob McNair hears from Rick Smith that Aso is only the 3rd-best CB overall and should be paid accordingly. So, the Texans call up Aso and offer 10.5m/yr - 5 years and another team offers 12.5m/yr - 4 years. Is the OTHER team in this scenario overpaying, or are they paying what the market will bear for the services of a TOP corner? What if Aso wants 12.5 to play for the Texans and only 11.75 to play for the Steelers? Would it be stupid to 'up the ante'?

Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.

HoustonFrog
03-22-2011, 04:20 PM
I'm not saying overpay for anyone. I'm saying, show us you are even going to try to get the dude. Heck, everything on paper says he wouldn't want to come here but show us the fans that you are doing whatever you can to try and get someone. Lie to us, do something. Come out and say "hey we called but his agent wouldn't even answer the phone." Show us you couldn't get him and so you then went after Ike Taylor or Weddle or someone.

Instead, all we have seen is Atogwe going to Redskins and this player going there and so on. Nothing on our end.

I know we can't do nothing with all this CBA caca but when FA starts up again, show us you are doing whatever you can to make this team better.

Right. This is what I was saying to Cak. It is one thing to have a sound philiosophy. On paper, Bob's "right way" mantra and wanting to follow long established teams is admirable. But the matra goes out the door when you keep people who can't make it happen personnel wise..Smith and Kubiak. If they can't target the right people for your money then what good does spending under the budget do. Now if you go hard at a top DB because it makes your secondary a plus instead of a minus, then people can back off because the effort and money are there. The fan mindset right now...and it is probably correct...is that Gary has told Bob that the kids from last year got some experience and seasoning and are ready for the next step with Wade as coach. Fill in some pieces from the draft and smaller FAs and they are right there. Paying for a guy who had a great playoff run or one good season is different than one of the top 2 guys in the league.

Mr teX
03-22-2011, 04:22 PM
Obviously no one is going to disagree with that. No one wants to "overpay" for players. But, there's no objective measurement over what a player is worth and no concrete forecast as to how effective a player will be.

McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.


The problem here though is that people are only looking at this "scrutiny" from 1 vantage point. Most fans read the snippet of what he said & immediately translated it into "they aren't going to go after such & such b/c it cost too much.."..completely justifiable in thinking that. But from McNair's point of view, he's actually on point in saying what he said, given their propensity for spending money on scrubs who largely didn't deserve it. Fans however, don't acknowledge this aspect of it though.

As for the other part of your post, why then do teams fall over themselves trying to sign these big name guys if there is no "concrete forecast" on how effective they will be? If anything, that is the known commodity. Chicago didn't sign peppers to that monsterous contract largely not knowing what he was going to bring to their defense for at least the next 2-3 years. They knew exactly what he was going to bring, which is why they offered him what they did.

& although there isn't an "objective" way to determine what a player is worth, there is an established starting point & all the owners themselves decide indirectly when they sign their stars. We just dealt with this with AJ last year. When he signed his contract he was the highest paid WR in the game or right there with them. Then Miami & Arizona went nuts on Marshall & Fitzgerald's deals & all of a sudden the best WR in the game's contract looks "weak" (for lack of a better term) compared to theirs. The owners have control of these things, but the competitiveness of the league keeps driving things up. The players know this so it's nearly impossible not to overpay a FA unless you stick to your guns &/or draft really well.

Mr teX
03-22-2011, 04:26 PM
What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.

Dumb in the sense that people OBVIOUSLY knows what the guy means when he make his comments, they're just choosing to ignore it b/c it doesn't go along with their agenda.

Second Honeymoon
03-22-2011, 04:40 PM
Let me get this straight, you want the owner and his team to go away? And yet you still sport an an avatar supporting said team and post on a message board dedicated to them? Ok, makes sense I suppose.

It's been almost a decade since McNair cashed his first check from me. It's been a little over a year since he cashed his last check from me. This same laissez-faire act last year screwed us, so why not try it again.

In fact, let's keep the same failing regime except let's blow up the while defensive side of things. So you get all the growing pains that go along with changing schemes and personnel without actually changing the real problem, Rick and Gary. But at least the change buys Smithiaknair another year of excuses. And ultimately when they fail we will have Wade step in as 'savior' HC. The same Wade Phillips that was laughed at on this board as Cowboys coach but once he is Texans HC, people will think he is Mother Theresa.

So we have that to lookforward to.
I am a fan but enough is enough. What about AJ who has given his entire career to this franchise? Even Matt. He led potential game winning drives in like 6 or 7 losses. That shows there are inherent problems in the direction and leadership on this team.

Just bringing in a good DC isn't enough. This team has major problems and deficiencies that still have not been identified and addressed. And I don't think they are getting changed anytime soon. If last years pathetic excuse for a season didn't get Smithiak fired, what will?

I like some of the players but I just don't see this team ever doing squat under it's current leadership and direction.

Second Honeymoon
03-22-2011, 04:47 PM
The thing is McNair didn't say they would only go after mediocre players and that is the way it is being spun. They may want to pursue Aso but have placed an upper value on him of $15 mil per year. If he wants $22 mil per year then yeah they shouldn't overpay like that. In a capped league there is a price to be paid for over paying. There has to be a cut-off somewhere.

But you can overpay for 2nd tier talent like Weaver, Robaire, and Green and overpay with max extension for scrubs like David Carr but when it comes to 'overpaying' for a top tier talent like an Aso, well they can't bring themselves to do that.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 04:49 PM
The problem here though is that people are only looking at this "scrutiny" from 1 vantage point. Most fans read the snippet of what he said & immediately translated it into "they aren't going to go after such & such b/c it cost too much.."..completely justifiable in thinking that. But from McNair's point of view, he's actually on point in saying what he said, given their propensity for spending money on scrubs who largely didn't deserve it. Fans however, don't acknowledge this aspect of it though. I definitely see that PoV, but past performance doesn't guarantee future success (or vice versa). At some point, he has to trust his GM, because Bob isn't a scout. I'd love to see him open the pockets for the closest to a "sure thing" the Texans may EVER see in FA.

Dumb in the sense that people OBVIOUSLY knows what the guy means when he make his comments, they're just choosing to ignore it b/c it doesn't go along with their agenda. I'm not so sure about that. What exactly is "on the right track" about finishing 6-10 AFTER a 9-7 season? It's obvious that Bob doesn't see this team like the rest of the world sees it. Maybe it's like having a child and you overlook their shortcomings simply because they're "yours".

dc_txtech
03-22-2011, 04:52 PM
Here's Revis' deal:
Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5538132)

46 mil/4 yrs = 11.5m/year

If you consider that contracts for a given position go UP over time, and that Aso will likely ask for MORE than Revis, I'd consider the starting point to be 12m/yr.

Now, what if Bob McNair hears from Rick Smith that Aso is only the 3rd-best CB overall and should be paid accordingly. So, the Texans call up Aso and offer 10.5m/yr - 5 years and another team offers 12.5m/yr - 4 years. Is the OTHER team in this scenario overpaying, or are they paying what the market will bear for the services of a TOP corner? What if Aso wants 12.5 to play for the Texans and only 11.75 to play for the Steelers? Would it be stupid to 'up the ante'?

Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.

What another team is offering has no bearing on what we deem his worth to be. If we think he is only worth 10.5 a year then why would we pay him 12.5?

Would you pay 5 bucks for a beer? Sure you would.
Would you pay 6 bucks for a beer? Yeah sure why not
Would you pay 100 dollars for a beer? Probably not

So at some point between 6 and 100 dollars you decide that you are not willing to pay 1 more cent for a beer and that is what the value of that beer is to you.

Same thing applies to football players. Would I pay Aso 10mil a year? In a heartbeat. Would I pay him 20mil a year? Probably not. Where exactly to draw the line is where it gets sticky.

infantrycak
03-22-2011, 05:05 PM
Comparisons to Weaver, Both Smiths & Wade are all a little "off"....Aso has more Pro Bowls than those guys combined...which is ZERO, Aso has 4.

My point was context matters. The Texans at times have gone after and signed the supposedly best free agents available that off-season at their positions. This year sure there is a much more talented pool with guys like Aso at a much higher level. Nonetheless, the Texans have aggressively moved to fill holes within the market place they were presented at times.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 05:41 PM
What another team is offering has no bearing on what we deem his worth to be. ...and that's the problem. If what the Texans "value" somebody at is far beneath the going rate, that guy will go elsewhere. If 9 teams are willing to pay more, are the Texans still right? How about 20 teams?

"Overpay" is a relative term. Paying what the market commands can't literally be called "overpaying".

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 06:25 PM
Dale, we already know that you are perfectly fine with 6-10 as long as we rack up stats. What you fail to understand is that McNair has not earned the benefit of the doubt from his fans, and so every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned - with good reason.

This teams track record gives fans a basis on which to form opinions. And that's why, when people read McNair's quotes, they jump to conclusions. He has not given us any other reason not to.


That's ridiculous! Though I probably care less about statistics, from a fan perspective, than anyone you will ever meet.

"every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned"-

That's my point. Just have one, whiney thread about how McNair has caused fans so much frustration because the Texans haven't made the playoffs. You guys can all live on that thread and do your Goldilocks impression: this one is too hot, this one is too cold... this one is too hard, this one is too soft... they spend too much, they don't spend enought"... etc, etc, etc...

What McNair said should be applauded. That's the way we should all want the organization to run. The problem has been successful implementation.

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 06:31 PM
Why is it ridiculous? It isn't a pitchfork mentality. It is a frustration with an owner who doesn't seem to get it. You can point out, as Cak did, that there are teams that play it smartly and win but they also have used this philiosophy successfully and won and they have coaches, GMs and people in place to make it work. A philosophy is only as good as the people creating and executing it. So far the creators and executors of the Texans version have been a massive fail. Coach, GM, owner....stay the course. That is a fail.

Where was the failure last year? Defense. Who is on the market? Top player at his position. There is a difference between throwing money at the 5 mediocre players you named and going after a top guy. Why do you think The 49ers and Cowboys went after Deion...it brought another championship. Balancing money to keep guys who aren't getting it done and to fill in with "nice" FAs isn't something that has worked here so far. It is that simple. So until their version works, there is ample reason for people to wonder why they don't go and get a stud. That is sound logic. Become a winner. Try something else since in 9 years your way hasn't worked.

Overall what he is saying sounds prudent and nice but in reality is same story, different day. Running a post up offense is a nice philosophy unless you are running it with guys under 5'10.


As Icak mentioned, the heart of the issue is the quality of the free agent market. This year's market is incredibly strong. The Texans can target the 5th best CB in the market and get someone like Richard Marshall, Ike Taylor, Brent Grimes, or Brandon Carr... all depending on what your scouting department and defensive team covets. That's a flood of talent. The worst thing to do is throw gobs of money at Nnambi and miss an opportunity to get real value. Carr, for instance, is over 4 years younger than Nnambi and will likely accept a contract for half the value. That leaves the Texans money to spend in other areas, also quite stocked with talent.

As I previously mentioned, Bodden and Robinson were the top 2 FAs last season. This season they wouldn't be among the top 10, IMO... The Falcons gave Dunta a $40 million contract last year. This year, they'll likely lose their best CB (Grimes) for less money than they spent on Dunta.

Texecutioner
03-22-2011, 06:41 PM
My point was context matters. The Texans at times have gone after and signed the supposedly best free agents available that off-season at their positions. This year sure there is a much more talented pool with guys like Aso at a much higher level. Nonetheless, the Texans have aggressively moved to fill holes within the market place they were presented at times.

The Texans have never aggressively moved to fill any holes in the market place that they were presented. Just the thought of that is laughable. We're by far one of the worst teams in the at filling holes in free agency. Hell, we've really never done that with quality players other than maybe Kevin Walter. Everyone else has been other team's poor cast offs that had no real demand on the open market or were average run of the mill players.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 06:42 PM
As Icak mentioned, the heart of the issue is the quality of the free agent market. This year's market is incredibly strong. The Texans can target the 5th best CB in the market and get someone like Richard Marshall, Ike Taylor, Brent Grimes, or Brandon Carr... all depending on what your scouting department and defensive team covets. That's a flood of talent. The worst thing to do is throw gobs of money at Nnambi and miss an opportunity to get real value. Carr, for instance, is over 4 years younger than Nnambi and will likely accept a contract for half the value. That leaves the Texans money to spend in other areas, also quite stocked with talent.

As I previously mentioned, Bodden and Robinson were the top 2 FAs last season. This season they wouldn't be among the top 10, IMO... The Falcons gave Dunta a $40 million contract last year. This year, they'll likely lose their best CB (Grimes) for less money than they spent on Dunta. I can't disagree more with the bolded. The second-echelon is what the Texans have always gotten in FA...how's that worked out so far? Improving from last to 25th in pass defense is a net gain of 7 spots, but you still suck at that point.

IMHO - There IS a time to 'pull out the pocketbook' and that's to get a guy who is as good or better than anyone at his position.

Texecutioner
03-22-2011, 06:45 PM
What McNair said should be applauded. That's the way we should all want the organization to run. The problem has been successful implementation.

Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.

CloakNNNdagger
03-22-2011, 06:48 PM
Sure they have given us reason to doubt but not to lose all reason. Who are the most successful franchises around? - maybe Pittsburgh and New England, maybe throw in Indy. Do any of them go crazy in free agency? Do any of them overpay for players, even their own? No. I certainly want the Texans to be players in the free agent market when/if it happens but these remarks do not reflect a bad, aberrant or cheap philosophy.

I agree with you that not all reason should be lost. However, when you look at organizations like Pittsburgh, New England and Indy, they tend to have a long and pretty consistent history of making wise choices in their personel from the top down........frugally or otherwise. And with that, they have a reputation that attracts a steady flow of good personel at reasonable prices.

This contrasts, in general, pretty significantly to the Texans' history thus far. Players, especially, are not tearing down the doors to come to this organization.

EllisUnit
03-22-2011, 07:01 PM
Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.

He did give us a team again :hurrah:

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 07:03 PM
The Texans have never aggressively moved to fill any holes in the market place that they were presented. Just the thought of that is laughable. We're by far one of the worst teams in the at filling holes in free agency. Hell, we've really never done that with quality players other than maybe Kevin Walter. Everyone else has been other team's poor cast offs that had no real demand on the open market or were average run of the mill players.

I get the inevitable frustration of an organization that hasn't been to the playoffs in nine seasons. However, this charge is not accurate, IMO.

1st- When Smith/Kubiak took over the mess in 2006, there was so little talent that everyone knew a major overhaul was in order. Therefore, obviousley the 1st season or two, plugging a hole by spending big on a veteran FA doesn't make a ton of sense.

2nd- let me introduce you to a hole-plugger: Matt Schaub. In your estimation, he isn't a quality player? You don't think he had some demand in the open market?... Also, Antonio Smith was the best defensive player on the team last season and he was a significantly pursued FA before the '09 season.

3rd- Here's what the front office did with limited resources (due to significant cap ramifications from the wasteful spending of Charlie Casserly): Matt Schaub, Vonta Leach, Joel Dreessen, Mike Brisiel, Andre Davis, Rashod Butler... pretty good haul, everything considered, I would think.

4th- Due largely to the CBA situation, the past two seasons' FA market have been putrid. Which is unfortunate, since these were the two seasons the Texans felt a couple FA moves could make the difference for them. They tried to sign Bodden, but he wanted to stay in NE and the Texans didn't think him worth a $25 million contract. They were right, by the way.

Double Barrel
03-22-2011, 07:05 PM
Owner Bob McNair said the Texans will not make employees take pay reductions or work furloughs unless games are canceled and the team has to refund season-ticket revenue.

Good deal. I was wondering how the Texans were going to handle the lock-out, and I kinda' figured that McNair would take this position. Nice. He's a classy man, and this would not be a good PR move for a very PR sensitive organization. Besides, season ticket sales are still solid, so no need to panic.

As far as the rest of what he said...m'eh, nothing new under the sun. A tiger doesn't change it's stripes, and perpetual mediocrity is...well...perpetual. :wheel:

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 07:10 PM
Why should it get applauded? Just because he's talking out of his ass?? I'll believe this stuff from Mcnair when I see it. He can talk the talk, but until he walks the walk, hearing Mcnair say the stuff he did on those comments was even more funny than when Lane Kiffin did that comical speech when he was first hired as the Raiders HC and no one thought he could be successful. Mcnair has shown nothing in his history to say that he'll be aggressive to compete in free agency to fill needed holes. I'll applaud the guy when he actually does multiple things to make this better, and not in one off season, but in at least two. He's done nothing in 9 seasons thus far, so I won't expect anything from the guy until he shows a pattern that's opposite of what he has done in the past which is to stand pat and build through the draft which has been fail after fail.

I didn't say to applaud McNair. I said, "what McNair said should be applauded"... I'm defending the philosophy. It is dead on. Feel free to complain about failed implementation of the philosophy all you would like. I'm quite critical of it.

Here is something I wrote in January, from Texans Bull Blog:

Bob McNair loves to oogle the New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers franchise hoping to model the Texans after them. He has been attempting to mimic the stability of those organizations for a decade now. I respect that effort. However, those organizations didnít just decide to be stable and then succeed with the people and philosophy that happened to be in place at the time. It took years and years of searching for the right combination of coaches, scouts, and front office personnel before everything fell in place for them. For Pittsburgh, their dark years were primarily in the 1950s and 1960s. Since Chuck Knoll arrived, they have had a steady and remarkable run. But, plenty of growing pains and lessons were learned by the Rooneys up to that point. Bob Kraft purchased the New England patriots in 1994. While they had some early success, it took seven years and some good fortune (Bledsoe injury, insane officiating, and an odd family squabble between Parcells and Belichek) before they found their footing. If Kraft would have decided simply to be a stable organization during Pete Carrollís tenure, would they be the exemplary franchise they are now? Smart money would say ďnoĒ. Now, having said that, it is interesting to note that Pete Carroll never had a losing season in his three years in New England. Then, when he was replaced with Belichek after his poorest season (8-8), Belichek led the Pats to a 5-11 year. Then the tide turned.

I am not suggesting that, if McNair wants similar success, that he should fire Kubiak. Iím generally glad that he didnít. What does bother me is a growing concern that Bob McNair is so focused on emulating the winning organizations that he is missing the larger picture. The NFL is not a paint-by-numbers endeavor. As I am sure Bob McNair understands most of the time, any organization with hundreds of variables (people) is a complex orchestration. Yet, what I fear is happening is that McNair is working from a two dimensional checklist of a few simplistic observations he has made regarding the Patriots and the Steelers:

1. Organizational stability (check)

2. Seldom paying premium for FAs (check)

3. As an owner, donít get too involved (check)

and now, this new one:

4. 3-4 defense (check?)

I certainly hope his thinking is not this simplistic. However, with the Wade Phillips hiring imminent even though he has not even interviewed yet, one has to wonder. After all, not only has Wade not interviewed, but I donít think a single candidate has interviewed (saying hello to Marvin Lewis on the telephone does not qualify). I know that McNair also likes Wade because he has been a successful DC and has had 30 years of experience. Still, though, those are simply labels (like a 3-4 defense is) and donít speak to the how/why Wade is the best choice to run the Texansí defense in 2011 under Gary Kubiak and with this scouting department bringing him talent and with Rick Smith running football operations (sort of). Perhaps Wade is the best choice. However, how could McNair/Kubiak/Smith possibly have any idea of that if they havenít been through an exhaustive process, including interviewing other candidatesÖ or, just sitting down and speaking to Wade for 30 minutes. CONTINUE ARTICLE (http://www.texansbullblog.com/england-answers-pathetic-texans-defense/featured-articles/)

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 07:18 PM
I can't disagree more with the bolded. The second-echelon is what the Texans have always gotten in FA...how's that worked out so far? Improving from last to 25th in pass defense is a net gain of 7 spots, but you still suck at that point.

IMHO - There IS a time to 'pull out the pocketbook' and that's to get a guy who is as good or better than anyone at his position.

"second echelon"?

This isn't the NBA. Nnambi isn't greater than Brent Grimes + Eric Weddle + Cullen Jenkins, though the cap impact may be similar.

Markets change due to supply. The supply in the free agent market is deep and rich. As I said, the 7th or 8th best CB is better than the top CB in last year's market. What does a single player do for an organization? Well, let's see: how successful have the Raiders been since Nnambi has been on the team?

thunderkyss
03-22-2011, 07:42 PM
*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it......People taking things out of context just so it will fit their agenda. I know we aren't this dumb as a fan base so this is the only thing it could be.

Yeah, he could come out and say, "We won't be outbid for Aso!!"

& we still won't get the man, because he decides he wants to play for NYGiants/NYJets or the Dallas Cowboys for less money... but we'll effectively bid up the price tag.

thunderkyss
03-22-2011, 07:44 PM
McNair said they will not pay someone more they are worth. Given the Texans' history both in free agency and on the field, there's obviously some justified scrutiny in the front office's ability to evaluate what is "going crazy" and what is making quality and necessary additions to the team, as opposed to someone like the Packers or Colts who seem to be able to make that distinction more effectively.

Who did we lose, because we didn't offer enough money?

Who did the Packers or the Colts add, that made a difference?

thunderkyss
03-22-2011, 07:46 PM
What is dumb about seeing something that is broken and making comments about it when the owner takes a similar stance? It is more ignorant to follow the "right track" mantra without having some questions after 9 years. Bob never really spoke much until this year and so far it has been a bunch of comments that don't inspire greatness....right track, not accepting bad results, thinking about Kubiaks situation despite making up his mind, owners congratulating him for losses, etc, etc. If I follow your mindset then I was dumb to ***** about Carr, Ahman Green, Casserly and Kubiak 2 years ago. So far I don't feel dumb.

How long were the Colts bad, before they finally figured it out?

Joe Texan
03-22-2011, 07:51 PM
Yap yap yap yap

thunderkyss
03-22-2011, 07:52 PM
But you can overpay for 2nd tier talent like Weaver, Robaire, and Green and overpay with max extension for scrubs like David Carr but when it comes to 'overpaying' for a top tier talent like an Aso, well they can't bring themselves to do that.

Specifically who & when were these top tier FAs out there, that we passed on?

'Cak's point, is that those were the best out there at the time. Not that the Texans thought they were the best out there, but the consensus. I don't know how he determined that, but that's his point.

Your point, is that the Texans failed to go after top tier FAs... who? & when?

thunderkyss
03-22-2011, 08:15 PM
1st- When Smith/Kubiak took over the mess in 2006, there was so little talent that everyone knew a major overhaul was in order. Therefore, obviousley the 1st season or two, plugging a hole by spending big on a veteran FA doesn't make a ton of sense.

You are aware, we're talking about 5 years right? For a team to go from joke to pretender to joke again in that time frame.... something has to have gone wrong.

How about we spend a ton on a bunch of FAs..... maybe a lot of the immaturity we saw that cost us games in 2008 & 2009 wouldn't have been an issue. Maybe we would have a solid base to launch from today, than the fertile soil of unproven potential we've been hanging our hopes on for the last 5 years.


You know I'm in for whatever.... but you have to admit some of the decisions this club has made leaves lots of room for criticism.

3rd- Here's what the front office did with limited resources (due to significant cap ramifications from the wasteful spending of Charlie Casserly): Matt Schaub, Vonta Leach, Joel Dreessen, Mike Brisiel, Andre Davis, Rashod Butler... pretty good haul, everything considered, I would think.

I do agree with this. There's been some good, some bad.

steelbtexan
03-22-2011, 08:53 PM
Nothing to see here. SOS

Yes BoB's loyal fanbase has a right to ? how he goes about business as usual after a decade of failure.

BoB is going to take a larger role in the CBA negociations. That's just great.

DexmanC
03-22-2011, 09:06 PM
Good deal. I was wondering how the Texans were going to handle the lock-out, and I kinda' figured that McNair would take this position. Nice. He's a classy man, and this would not be a good PR move for a very PR sensitive organization. Besides, season ticket sales are still solid, so no need to panic.

As far as the rest of what he said...m'eh, nothing new under the sun. A tiger doesn't change it's stripes, and perpetual mediocrity is...well...perpetual. :wheel:

At least it shows "stability," right?

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 09:17 PM
You are aware, we're talking about 5 years right? For a team to go from joke to pretender to joke again in that time frame.... something has to have gone wrong.

You know I'm in for whatever.... but you have to admit some of the decisions this club has made leaves lots of room for criticism.
.

TK,

They've made many mistakes and I think I've called them out on most of them. They totally blew it going into 2009 when they ignored the safety position and relied on John Busing, Nick Ferguson, and D.Barber.

I'm just pointing out that the Texans have showed a willingness to spend significant money on FAs, as they did with Antonio Smith and a big group before that. And, there is the reality that the FA market the past two seasons has been absolutely pathetic.

If they don't acquire a good, veteran CB and other significant veteran pieces this off-season, I will be outraged... and surprised.

CloakNNNdagger
03-22-2011, 09:44 PM
If they don't acquire a good (I fear the definition), veteran CB and other significant veteran pieces this off-season, the fans will be outraged... and the Texans FO will still act surprised.

disaacks3
03-22-2011, 10:34 PM
"second echelon"?

This isn't the NBA. Nnambi isn't greater than Brent Grimes + Eric Weddle + Cullen Jenkins, though the cap impact may be similar.

Markets change due to supply. The supply in the free agent market is deep and rich. As I said, the 7th or 8th best CB is better than the top CB in last year's market. What does a single player do for an organization? Well, let's see: how successful have the Raiders been since Nnambi has been on the team?

That's great if you think the Texans will sign all three. You'll remind me the last time the Texans got more than one decent player at any one position in an offseason. Is Nnamdi better than any one of them? Sure he is, by a long shot.

Funny you should mention the Raiders - Did you happen to notice their passing defense rank? It's #2, we were #32 (We were #30 overall, they were #11)...tell me again how Nnamdi isn't making a difference? :confused:

dalemurphy
03-22-2011, 11:56 PM
That's great if you think the Texans will sign all three. You'll remind me the last time the Texans got more than one decent player at any one position in an offseason. Is Nnamdi better than any one of them? Sure he is, by a long shot.

Funny you should mention the Raiders - Did you happen to notice their passing defense rank? It's #2, we were #32 (We were #30 overall, they were #11)...tell me again how Nnamdi isn't making a difference? :confused:

Show me the playoff appearences the Raiders had with Nnambi at CB. There is a 53 man roster. So, if one player (particularly other than QB) is eating up 10% of the entire salary cap (like Nnambi did his last two seasons in Oakland) then there is either a lack of talent on the team or there soon will be. In Oakland's case, they could afford him because they didn't have a QB to pay for, nor an Andre Johnson on the offense.

Show me the well-run organization that pays elite money for free agents....

Pittsburgh... no
New England... no
Indianapolis... no

In each example, their highest paid player is consistently their homegrown QB. Perhaps it is simply a coincidence. Let's look at the teams during the salary cap era that have frequently paid top dollar for the big name free agents:

Washington Redskins (how many of you guys wanted Haynesworth? be honest)
Dallas Cowboys (gross)
Oakland Raiders (double gross)

What is the example in the salary cap era of the NFL of a team outbidding the rest of the NFL for an elite FA and it worked out well?

Don't say Deion Sanders in 1994. Even though the cap had started, the ramifications of the cap had not hit teams nor the NFL. Focus on the last 10 years, or so. Let's list Superbowl Champs:

2010: Green Bay? they got Charles Woodson at a discount after a couple poor seasons
2009: New Orleans? Brees on a discount due to injured shoulder
2008: Pittsburgh?
2007: NYGiants?
2006: Indy?
2005: Pittsburgh?
2004: New England?
2003: New England?...

I'm really not seeing the argument for offering elite money at a FA, especially when the talent pool is so rich. However, I see reasons not to:

San Fran: $80 million to Nate Clements
Washington: $100 million to Haynesworth

Lucky
03-23-2011, 12:49 AM
Prudently but actively spending money in free agency this season will be highly beneficial. And, that is what he is saying they are going to do.
Dude, you don't know what the Texans are going to do anymore than I do. And I know squat. What McNair said can be interpreted in various ways because he was (unintentionally) talking out of both sides of his mouth.

"We're ready to move." Sounds good.

"We're not going to do something we think is crazy." Well, what are you going to do?

"...most of our dollars go to keeping our players..." So by "ready to move" you mean jogging in place?

What you fail to understand is that McNair has not earned the benefit of the doubt from his fans, and so every single thing that comes out of his mouth is questioned - with good reason.
That's my point. Just do it, Bob. Your talk is worthless. Less than worthless. Do something.

Who are the most successful franchises around?
The teams with the best coaches and front offices. Well, the Texans don't have either. So buying a championship isn't somthing that should be dismissed out of hand.


Here is something I wrote in January, from Texans Bull Blog:
That was as honest examination of the Texans as I've seen. McNair seems to copycat his way around the game. Because he doesn't understand it. That's why I would like to see and hear less from him. McNair needs a real football guy running this organization. Not a 10 year novice who seemingly will never get it.

Texanmike02
03-23-2011, 01:36 AM
please go **** yourself, McNair. just continue doing what you do best, being an abysmal failure and a bad owner.

it has worked out so well to date. at least you have great fans like 'Joe Texan' who don't really care how much you suck, as long as you keep rolling out crap they will keep buying it....but rest assured, most of your good fans aren't as naive as those type of fans.

At the end fo the day, your franchise is a joke and you are committed to one thing. $$$$$. so please spare us the dog and pony show. the day you decided to keep not just Rick or Gary, but both...told me all I needed to know about you. You are a pile of crap and I hope you go away and take this pathetic franchise with you. You will not be missed.

Wow. Frustrated cowboys fan? Stay classy.

Mike

Texanmike02
03-23-2011, 01:45 AM
I can't disagree more with the bolded. The second-echelon is what the Texans have always gotten in FA...how's that worked out so far? Improving from last to 25th in pass defense is a net gain of 7 spots, but you still suck at that point.

IMHO - There IS a time to 'pull out the pocketbook' and that's to get a guy who is as good or better than anyone at his position.

OK. This is an honest question. What is the last free agent (other than one of the troubled players like vick) to go to a team and be the reason for their turnaround?

I'm not saying there haven't been and i'm sure that a few can rattle off 10 in a second but I don't think it happens often. I'd almost be willing to bet that the teams that have spent the most money in free agency over the last 5 years have very few playoff appearances between them. I have no stat to back that up (shame on me) but the first one that wants to take me up on it... $10 donation to the board?

Even the "can't miss" FA's seem to not work out very well.

Mike

Norg
03-23-2011, 02:42 AM
we mimic all the current and past great teams Pittsburg New england greenbay

except we never win like them :P o well we keep up all these Draft picks and core plays im sure we will win one of these days

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 07:15 AM
I think we all want the same thing and recognize many of the same problems. The issue seems to come down to "posture". For me, I want to be hopeful and optimistic not resentful and bitter. I do get what has led people to become resentful. I think the frustration and resentment, though, as led some of you to conclude/assume the worst about every item presented you regarding McNair.

For instance, some have concluded he doesn't care about winning and is only looking to make money. I don't see evidence of that motivation. Two clubs that do operate that way are: Cincinnati and Washington. Mike Brown lowballs every football player and every employee on the team and spends near the bottom of the league every season. Dan Snyder rings every single penny out of the Redskin fanbase by means of one despicable act after another, including suing old ladies too poor to renew their season tickets (literally true). These are not the business practices of Bob McNair. McNair also permits tailgating at the stadium and has kept the ticket and parking prices relatively low despite demand exceeding the supply of tickets every single season. The Texans are also consistently in the top half of the league spending on player salaries. They also carry a large coaching staff and a large scouting department.

There are many reasons for the Texans lack of success and I would blame McNair for some of them... I would also attribute some of the failures simply to circumstances beyond anyone's control. Just like Robert Kraft needed a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England: Bledsoe injury, referee robbing the Raiders via replay, clutching field goal kicking, Parcells and Belicheck having a lovers' quarrel, etc... Bob McNair has not had such events. Instead, he has had: Hurricane Ike, Rosencopter, Kris Brown meltdown, and the Colts rolling over for the Jets in 2009.

CloakNNNdagger
03-23-2011, 08:11 AM
Show me the well-run organization that pays elite money for free agents....

Pittsburgh... no
New England... no
Indianapolis... no



The problem is that "classy" does not not necessarily translate into "well-run." Well-run organizations have people at the top that can consistently make good decisions. If good decisions are not made, paying or not paying elite money doesn't make a flip of difference in the end result.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 09:14 AM
Yeah, he could come out and say, "We won't be outbid for Aso!!"

& we still won't get the man, because he decides he wants to play for NYGiants/NYJets or the Dallas Cowboys for less money... but we'll effectively bid up the price tag.

My point exactly. It takes 2 to tango & short of offering these guys an outrageous contract, there is absolutely NO REASON why any of the top guys would want to come here. & i for 1 don't want Mcnair to become the Dan Snyder of the south....or the Al Davis of the South for that matter.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 10:20 AM
Show me the playoff appearences the Raiders had with Nnambi at CB. There is a 53 man roster. So, if one player (particularly other than QB) is eating up 10% of the entire salary cap (like Nnambi did his last two seasons in Oakland) then there is either a lack of talent on the team or there soon will be. In Oakland's case, they could afford him because they didn't have a QB to pay for, nor an Andre Johnson on the offense.

Show me the well-run organization that pays elite money for free agents....

Pittsburgh... no
New England... no
Indianapolis... no

In each example, their highest paid player is consistently their homegrown QB. Perhaps it is simply a coincidence. Let's look at the teams during the salary cap era that have frequently paid top dollar for the big name free agents:

Washington Redskins (how many of you guys wanted Haynesworth? be honest)
Dallas Cowboys (gross)Oakland Raiders (double gross)

What is the example in the salary cap era of the NFL of a team outbidding the rest of the NFL for an elite FA and it worked out well?

Don't say Deion Sanders in 1994. Even though the cap had started, the ramifications of the cap had not hit teams nor the NFL. Focus on the last 10 years, or so. Let's list Superbowl Champs:

2010: Green Bay? they got Charles Woodson at a discount after a couple poor seasons
2009: New Orleans? Brees on a discount due to injured shoulder
2008: Pittsburgh?
2007: NYGiants?
2006: Indy?
2005: Pittsburgh?
2004: New England?
2003: New England?...

I'm really not seeing the argument for offering elite money at a FA, especially when the talent pool is so rich. However, I see reasons not to:

San Fran: $80 million to Nate Clements
Washington: $100 million to Haynesworth

The above bolded shows me that you just spew rhetoric and pay attention to nothing that is reality. Name the last big time free agent Dallas brought in?Seriously. TO didn't break the bank and was one guy. Deion was in 1995. Leonard Davis is the only other guys and he worked out...so 3. Besides that they have barely been involved in Free Agency over the years unless Igor O is a big splash along with Keith Brooking. They have used older, cheaper guys to help out. Last year, uncapped...Montrae Holland. You can babble all you want about who does it right but the teams you keep naming have the right people in place to make it work while this team has people you adore but are the wrong people so far. Please stop repeating catch phrases and actually look at reality. Don't count Deion...why because 2 teams signing the top cover corner helped them win SBs? Look at the names on these lists...do any scream...bargain, second tier guy? No. A majority were top guys.

http://www.nfl.com/freeagency/story?id=09000d5d80852164&template=with-video&confirm=true

That list was until 2008. Adding in the past years...Schefters Top 5 are Brees, Reggie White, Deion, Plaxico, Curtis Martin.

disaacks3
03-23-2011, 10:20 AM
Show me the playoff appearences the Raiders had with Nnambi at CB. There is a 53 man roster. So, if one player (particularly other than QB) is eating up 10% of the entire salary cap (like Nnambi did his last two seasons in Oakland) then there is either a lack of talent on the team or there soon will be. In Oakland's case, they could afford him because they didn't have a QB to pay for, nor an Andre Johnson on the offense. So, do you really believe:
A) Aso couldn't help the Texans overall, after all, our Offense has struggled without him.
B) You're already certain that the future salary cap wouldn't permit the Texans to sign him
C) That the Texans can't find space for the one of the best CBs in football.
D) That the Texans will suddenly be forced to dump all their most talented players if they sign him.

Riiiight :fingergun:

I'm not asking the Texans to pay him 25mil/yr. I'm asking the Texans to 'be competitive' in the bidding.

OK. This is an honest question. What is the last free agent (other than one of the troubled players like vick) to go to a team and be the reason for their turnaround?

I'm not saying there haven't been and i'm sure that a few can rattle off 10 in a second but I don't think it happens often. I'd almost be willing to bet that the teams that have spent the most money in free agency over the last 5 years have very few playoff appearances between them. I have no stat to back that up (shame on me) but the first one that wants to take me up on it... $10 donation to the board?

Even the "can't miss" FA's seem to not work out very well.

Mike To question #1 - When was the last time that a guy, arguable one of the top 3 guys at his position was available in FA? One could almost argue for Peppers last year and he went to a playoff team.

...and to continue the point, the Bears were probably the biggest in the FA market last year. They went into the Playoffs as a #2 seed.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 10:42 AM
OK. This is an honest question. What is the last free agent (other than one of the troubled players like vick) to go to a team and be the reason for their turnaround?

I'm not saying there haven't been and i'm sure that a few can rattle off 10 in a second but I don't think it happens often. I'd almost be willing to bet that the teams that have spent the most money in free agency over the last 5 years have very few playoff appearances between them. I have no stat to back that up (shame on me) but the first one that wants to take me up on it... $10 donation to the board?

Even the "can't miss" FA's seem to not work out very well.

Mike

Brees. Super Bowl. Thank you and good night.

I think you guys are confusing 2 things...1) Top FAs for a given year and 2) Top Players in the league. If you look at FA's history, guys like Reggie White, Deion, they have made the difference. Top players. Just because the top DB in a given year is rated #1 doesn't make him the top guy. Right now you have a guy who is considered one of the 2 tops at his position and who can make a teams weakness a strength.

GP
03-23-2011, 10:56 AM
Brees. Super Bowl. Thank you and good night.

I think you guys are confusing 2 things...1) Top FAs for a given year and 2) Top Players in the league. If you look at FA's history, guys like Reggie White, Deion, they have made the difference. Top players. Just because the top DB in a given year is rated #1 doesn't make him the top guy. Right now you have a guy who is considered one of the 2 tops at his position and who can make a teams weakness a strength.

We never even gave Brees a look, IIRC. Not even a LOOK.

For every Arian Foster on this team, there's 25 Drew Brees-type players out there that the Texans just somehow aren't interested in.

Here's a quote by dalemurphy I'd like to address, as well:

What McNair said should be applauded. That's the way we should all want the organization to run. The problem has been successful implementation.

Yes, dale, the problem has been with implementation. By the way, who "implements" things around the Texans organization? A combination of guys, namely Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak--The two chief "implementators" of the Texans.

And who retained those two guys, dale? Yes, it was the owner. Bob McNair.

And this, IMO, is why people are just dead dog tired of whatever comes from McNair's mouth. We get it already: He's going to say what we want to hear, what seems "applaudible," and then grab your ankles and hold on for the probing maneuver.

Here's what's going to happen, IMO: We're going to have a serious sit-down with Aso...and he's going to use us to up the bidding war amongst the teams he REALLY wants to play for. Happens every time, and it happens because the guys who are "implementing" things have proven they can't get to the big game. To the Big Show. These players want the payday, and they want the ring(s) too. It's a package deal, and they're going to use us to get to those better teams who have better implementators than we do.

Therefore, Bob has a stigma to overcome. A stigma he himself created by not being smarter about the football side of operations. His own damn fault, and we're paying for it on our end. We get to sit and watch a guy try to copycat and pussyfoot his way around building a real team in the NFL.

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 10:59 AM
Name the last big time free agent Dallas brought in?

Generally agree with you that Dallas is not that big a FA player and this is not a free agent but they made a huge deal (and mistake) to get Roy Williams.

I'm not asking the Texans to pay him 25mil/yr. I'm asking the Texans to 'be competitive' in the bidding.

How is that different than what McNair said? Odds are we will never know the various offers made.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:06 AM
Brees. Super Bowl. Thank you and good night.

I think you guys are confusing 2 things...1) Top FAs for a given year and 2) Top Players in the league. If you look at FA's history, guys like Reggie White, Deion, they have made the difference. Top players. Just because the top DB in a given year is rated #1 doesn't make him the top guy. Right now you have a guy who is considered one of the 2 tops at his position and who can make a teams weakness a strength.


They got Brres at a discount because of his serious shoulder injury that nobody knew he could recover from. I believe the deal was similar to the deal the Texans signed Schaub to.

Again, going back to Reggie White and Deion isn't an honest argument. We're dealing with the salary cap now. An NFL team can't operate like the NY Yankees and be successful. Of course, all things being equal, Nnambi would help this team. However, if you pay for him, there is the reality that the team will be unable to pay for others.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 11:13 AM
They got Brres at a discount because of his serious shoulder injury that nobody knew he could recover from. I believe the deal was similar to the deal the Texans signed Schaub to.

Again, going back to Reggie White and Deion isn't an honest argument. We're dealing with the salary cap now. An NFL team can't operate like the NY Yankees and be successful. Of course, all things being equal, Nnambi would help this team. However, if you pay for him, there is the reality that the team will be unable to pay for others.

True on Brees...I was just answering the question on who has made an impact

But honestly would you rather have that money pay for 3 guys that have done pretty well but you aren't sure what you are getting or would you rather have one of the top 2 shut down guys in the league, have the draft, have Wade added and have the offense and take your shot? I'll take the latter any day of the week.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:18 AM
OK. This is an honest question. What is the last free agent (other than one of the troubled players like vick) to go to a team and be the reason for their turnaround?

I'm not saying there haven't been and i'm sure that a few can rattle off 10 in a second but I don't think it happens often. I'd almost be willing to bet that the teams that have spent the most money in free agency over the last 5 years have very few playoff appearances between them. I have no stat to back that up (shame on me) but the first one that wants to take me up on it... $10 donation to the board?

Even the "can't miss" FA's seem to not work out very well.

Mike


Mike, You are right that the Cowboys haven't been incredibly active the past few years in the free agent market. However, their philosophy is what I am referencing. As ICak pointed out, it sometimes shows up in trades. Their philosophy is that a star player, at almost any cost, is good for the team. Here are some examples:

- traded 2 1st round picks to get Joey Galloway
- traded a 1st and 3rd round pick to get Roy Williams
- signed T.O. to a large deal
- signed Leonard Davis to a $50 million deal to play RG

all of those deals are examples of overvaluing a single player. I believe that is a failed philosophy in today's NFL. McNair believes that as well. I agree with him. Agreeing with McNair in one area, doesn't mean I agree with everything he has done/believes. I prefer to support/applaud him when we are in agreement and be critical in the areas where I believe he is wrong. Some of you have determined to criticize him about everything he says/does, regardless, because you are disappointed with the results.

I'll ask again: how many of you that want the Texans to bid seriously for Nnambi also wanted the Texans to bid high for Haynesworth? Come on. Be honest.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 11:20 AM
Generally agree with you that Dallas is not that big a FA player and this is not a free agent but they made a huge deal (and mistake) to get Roy Williams.



How is that different than what McNair said? Odds are we will never know the various offers made.



I thought the reason for their turnaround was Sean Payton. Seem to have heard that repeatedly around here. But yes, both were critical to their success. Having said that Brees was kind of a fluke. He was getting booted from the team that drafted him and coming off career threatening surgery to his throwing arm. Then meets the right system and becomes elite. Miami got first choice and signed Culpepper (that sure worked out well). You can't plan for that kind of thing. Folks (cough GP cough) like to be all 20/20 hindsight and talk about Brees but at the time Culpepper was the higher rated player by most pundits.

Roy Williams....(Throw up Smilie)(Jerry palm)

But back to them real quick. It really is a misconception. Jerry besides those 3 I named really has been pretty cheap and low key when it comes to FA. Especially the last 5-10 years. He ties up his money in his own players and tries to fill in gaps. Disappointing at times because there have been a few guys that I think could have been key leader/role guys that have been missed over the years.

Agree on Brees being a chance but he still had done pretty well with the Chargers. The injury was the big question.

Again, I'm not saying EVERY guy works out. I'm just sorting by Top Players vs Top FAs. Many top players have made an impact. Even if you look at pre-free agency how fast did Dallas's D in the SB years become better when Haley came on? Impact guys in their prime can give a sense of hope, some swagger and some more confidence in the guys around them. More so than say a Jaques Reeves.

Mike, You are right that the Cowboys haven't been incredibly active the past few years in the free agent market. However, their philosophy is what I am referencing. As ICak pointed out, it sometimes shows up in trades. Their philosophy is that a star player, at almost any cost, is good for the team. Here are some examples:

- traded 2 1st round picks to get Joey Galloway
- traded a 1st and 3rd round pick to get Roy Williams
- signed T.O. to a large deal
- signed Leonard Davis to a $50 million deal to play RG

all of those deals are examples of overvaluing a single player. I believe that is a failed philosophy in today's NFL. McNair believes that as well. I agree with him. Agreeing with McNair in one area, doesn't mean I agree with everything he has done/believes. I prefer to support/applaud him when we are in agreement and be critical in the areas where I believe he is wrong. Some of you have determined to criticize him about everything he says/does, regardless, because you are disappointed with the results.

I'll ask again: how many of you that want the Texans to bid seriously for Nnambi also wanted the Texans to bid high for Haynesworth? Come on. Be honest.

I think this may have been directed at me and I answered some above. Trades are different but Galloway was a need. Did it hit. No. Roy Williams either. But Davis has played well and worked out and TO wasn't a huge deal...3 years, 25 million. Not alot for the production they got. They got headaches too but a little over 8 mill a year for a top WR...I'll take it. So basically they still haven't made that many splashes in what..18 years. And honestly, I'd rather have a guy win a SB with Deion, do pretty well with TO and Davis and miss large on Roy and Galloway and have something to show than follow a course that has failed so far. Jerry sucks at GM many times but he also hits sometimes and overall I know he wants it.

steelbtexan
03-23-2011, 11:21 AM
My point exactly. It takes 2 to tango & short of offering these guys an outrageous contract, there is absolutely NO REASON why any of the top guys would want to come here. & i for 1 don't want Mcnair to become the Dan Snyder of the south....or the Al Davis of the South for that matter.

Why it's not your $$$$. Unless you're BoB.

I really dont care if he signs FA's or not. I just wanta great product on the field and so far for a decade under McNairs leadership the Texans have = success at the bank and fail on the field.

I dont understand why a fan wouldn't want his owner to bring in the best players in FA. Because teams that have the best talent usually win.

Why wouldn't you want an owner who like Snyder who altough he hasn't been successful puts his $$$$ where his mouth is, Unlike BoB who for the last 3 yrs has been saying this is a playoff team. But when they fail to achieve what was his stated goal. He not only doesn't fire his GM and HC. He re-ups them. Things like this make me ? his comittment to winning.

GP
03-23-2011, 11:24 AM
However, if you pay for him, there is the reality that the team will be unable to pay for others.

And that's why I'd be Ok with shopping Mario, to dump the impending BIG contract he's going to command.

In addition, I would have let Owen Daniels go. I don't want any back-and-forth wars over this issue either. Let me be clear: I think the world of OD. He is a key cog in the offense, no doubt. But we're at a point, IMO, where we have to decide what parts are essential and which parts are luxuries. IMO, the serious weapons of Schaub, Foster, Ward, Tate (hopefully), AJ, and the relatively adequate supporting role players of Dreesen/Graham/Casey/Walter/DA/JJ, I think OD is someone we could have afforded to lose.

Trading Mario Williams, and I'm bracing for the flood of heckling that will ensue from this theory here, gets us potentially another defensive line player who fits a 3-4 better. It might even get us a draft pick or two. And it rids us of the impending mammoth-sized deal he's going to want in order to stay on the sucky Texans team for perhapd the remainder of his career.

Those are two players, IMO, who can leave here and gain us a Pro Bowl caliber CB and a replacement player or two on the d-line (and draft picks).

Heck, we should have (or "could have," might be the better term) tried to sign and trade OD. The tender on him was going to be too high, but we could have packaged him appropriately for perhaps a lower draft pick or two. By grabbing a few extra draft picks, you then parlay THOSE extra picks by packaging them and trading up with a team on draft day.

At the end of the day, we are not seeing anything CREATIVE or DYNAMIC by McNair. It seems to be the standard to secure something that's not going to rock the boat, and then hold onto it for dear life as if the whole space-time continuum might be thrown completely off if we did.

Stability and comfort are ruling the day. Bob is convinced that it's "baby steps" that will win the race. This isn't a 401K, it's 16 games and then hopefully three more wins for the ring. His whole ideology is trickling down through everything, upon the "implementators" and to then to the players themselves. All of them are convinced that we'll have another game to do better, and another season to get there. It's been drilled into their subconscious by virtue of the big man himself.

Thus, it will take the most perfect storm for this team to overcome the genetic code set forth by its owner. This is why few people on here are hopeful, and why those same people aren't playing along with what Bob says. Lucky's assertion that Bob should be quiet is the most prudent thing that's been said on here thus far.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:24 AM
True on Brees...I was just answering the question on who has made an impact

You can't but honestly would you rather have that money pay for 3 guys that have done pretty well but you aren't sure what you are getting or would you rather have one of the top 2 shut down guys in the league, have the draft, have Wade added and have the offense and take your shot? I'll take the latter any day of the week.

Look, I would be excited if the Texans signed Nnambi. How could I not be? He's very good. But, I think the smartest approaching, looking at this free agent market, is to target some guys below him. Personally, I think Johnathan Joseph and Brandon Carr have a good chance to be better than Nnambi over the next 5 years, simply because of their age and the fact that they are quite gifted and have proven to be very good.

With the Texans fortunes, I would be terrified Nnambi would blow out a knee in training camp and be lost for the season. While that is not a good argument for not signing a draft pick, it does touch on the realities of the NFL. With the realities of injuries, it is often better to strengthen depth and add 3 or 4 talented players to a team rather than grab one, single player in hopes that his presence creates a chain reaction for the rest of the defense... what happens when he gets hurt?

Double Barrel
03-23-2011, 11:26 AM
The teams with the best coaches and front offices. Well, the Texans don't have either. So buying a championship isn't somthing that should be dismissed out of hand.

BINGO. We can debate FA signings until we are blue in the face, but unless we have great people at GM and HC, the organization will continue to flounder in it's mediocrity.

Just like Robert Kraft needed a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England: Bledsoe injury, referee robbing the Raiders via replay, clutching field goal kicking, Parcells and Belicheck having a lovers' quarrel, etc...

:um: huh?

I wonder about your NFL knowledge sometimes. You do realize that Bob Kraft bought the team in 1994 and the team was in Super Bowl XXXI a few years later? How is that "a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England"??? Dude's team was in the playoffs FOUR times before he hired Bill Belichick.

Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seaons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!! How the heck do you even try to compare this owner to McNair, whose embracing of mediocrity is the exact opposite? Kraft never would have extended Kubiak's contract, hired a noob GM, and then kept them after regressing and no playoff appearances!

There is absolutely no valid comparison between the Patriots and Texans or Robert Kraft and Bob McNair. I find the subject to be goofy, to put it politely.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:32 AM
And that's why I'd be Ok with shopping Mario, to dump the impending BIG contract he's going to command.

In addition, I would have let Owen Daniels go. I don't want any back-and-forth wars over this issue either. Let me be clear: I think the world of OD. He is a key cog in the offense, no doubt. But we're at a point, IMO, where we have to decide what parts are essential and which parts are luxuries. IMO, the serious weapons of Schaub, Foster, Ward, Tate (hopefully), AJ, and the relatively adequate supporting role players of Dreesen/Graham/Casey/Walter/DA/JJ, I think OD is someone we could have afforded to lose.

Trading Mario Williams, and I'm bracing for the flood of heckling that will ensue from this theory here, gets us potentially another defensive line player who fits a 3-4 better. It might even get us a draft pick or two. And it rids us of the impending mammoth-sized deal he's going to want in order to stay on the sucky Texans team for perhapd the remainder of his career.

Those are two players, IMO, who can leave here and gain us a Pro Bowl caliber CB and a replacement player or two on the d-line (and draft picks).

Heck, we should have (or "could have," might be the better term) tried to sign and trade OD. The tender on him was going to be too high, but we could have packaged him appropriately for perhaps a lower draft pick or two. By grabbing a few extra draft picks, you then parlay THOSE extra picks by packaging them and trading up with a team on draft day.

At the end of the day, we are not seeing anything CREATIVE or DYNAMIC by McNair. It seems to be the standard to secure something that's not going to rock the boat, and then hold onto it for dear life as if the whole space-time continuum might be thrown completely off if we did.

Stability and comfort are ruling the day. Bob is convinced that it's "baby steps" that will win the race. This isn't a 401K, it's 16 games and then hopefully three more wins for the ring. His whole ideology is trickling down through everything, upon the "implementators" and to then to the players themselves. All of them are convinced that we'll have another game to do better, and another season to get there. It's been drilled into their subconscious by virtue of the big man himself.

Thus, it will take the most perfect storm for this team to overcome the genetic code set forth by its owner. This is why few people on here are hopeful, and why those same people aren't playing along with what Bob says. Lucky's assertion that Bob should be quiet is the most prudent thing that's been said on here thus far.


GP, you make good arguments. I just don't agree with a lot of them. LOL.

I was on board with letting OD go, for sure, but I think they ended up getting him for excellent value. So, I'm on board for keeping him now. I would certainly be interested in trading Mario. After all, he's the second highest paid player on the team but he's not even the best DE (that's Antonio Smith, by the way).. Given the CBA issues, though, it is very unlikely he can be dealt before this season. Any deal would almost have to include draft picks due to his value and the difficulty of trading multiple players under contract (due to salary cap ramifications). Even if we trade Mario before the season, he would still count over $5 million against this year's cap because of his signing bonus. With jobs on the line, the Texans won't be shopping Mario for 2012 draft picks. So, he's not going anywhere.

I tend to agree with you that the organizational structure is flawed. I'm just more hopeful about things changing. As a matter of a fact, I'm convinced they determined after this season to be more aggressive in FA. It really sucks that the CBA haulted FA or we would already know if I was right or wrong.

dc_txtech
03-23-2011, 11:33 AM
Why it's not your $$$$. Unless you're BoB.

I really dont care if he signs FA's or not. I just wanta great product on the field and so far for a decade under McNairs leadership the Texans have = success at the bank and fail on the field.

I dont understand why a fan wouldn't want his owner to bring in the best players in FA. Because teams that have the best talent usually win.

Why wouldn't you want an owner who like Snyder who altough he hasn't been successful puts his $$$$ where his mouth is, Unlike BoB who for the last 3 yrs has been saying this is a playoff team. But when they fail to achieve what was his stated goal. He not only doesn't fire his GM and HC. He re-ups them. Things like this make me ? his comittment to winning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:36 AM
BINGO. We can debate FA signings until we are blue in the face, but unless we have great people at GM and HC, the organization will continue to flounder in it's mediocrity.



:um: huh?

I wonder about your NFL knowledge sometimes. You do realize that Bob Kraft bought the team in 1994 and the team was in Super Bowl XXXI a few years later? How is that "a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England"??? Dude's team was in the playoffs FOUR times before he hired Bill Belichick.

Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seaons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!! How the heck do you even try to compare this owner to McNair, whose embracing of mediocrity is the exact opposite? Kraft never would have extended Kubiak's contract, hired a noob GM, and then kept them after regressing and no playoff appearances!

There is absolutely no valid comparison between the Patriots and Texans or Robert Kraft and Bob McNair. I find the subject to be goofy, to put it politely.

I wasn't comparing McNair to Kraft. come on! I was just making the point that variables beyone anyone's control help shape history. Kraft wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is if not for a series of rather extraordinary events. That doesn't mean I don't think he's an excellent owner or that I think McNair would be equally successful not given those variables.

Double Barrel
03-23-2011, 11:39 AM
I wasn't comparing McNair to Kraft. come on! I was just making the point that variables beyone anyone's control help shape history. Kraft wouldn't be seen in the same light as he is if not for a series of rather extraordinary events. That doesn't mean I don't think he's an excellent owner or that I think McNair would be equally successful not given those variables.

Bullpoop. Kraft hired the best people he could find and held them accountable. Your previous statement reveals ignorance about him as an owner. He was successful before those "rather extraordinary events" as you refer to them.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Bullpoop. Kraft hired the best people he could find and held them accountable. Your previous statement reveals ignorance about him as an owner. He was successful before those "rather extraordinary events" as you refer to them.

I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 11:55 AM
I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).

They were in the AFC Championship Game. I'm pretty sure they would have continued their next seasons as a top team with top management, coaches and players and probably had SB success. I mean you could play this game all day. What is Jackie Smith hadn't have dropped the TD from Staubach..would they then be the team of the 70s. The Tuck Rule sucks but it was the rule. I hate what if games because it allows people to imagine 5 years of the Texans being a few plays from yearly playoff players.

Also "things beyond their control" do not include "making" kicks your deem impossible, leading game winning drives or winning SBs. Those are talent and skill. The Tuck Rule might have been out of their hands but they were still in the AFC Championship driving.

steelbtexan
03-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Look, I would be excited if the Texans signed Nnambi. How could I not be? He's very good. But, I think the smartest approaching, looking at this free agent market, is to target some guys below him. Personally, I think Johnathan Joseph and Brandon Carr have a good chance to be better than Nnambi over the next 5 years, simply because of their age and the fact that they are quite gifted and have proven to be very good.

With the Texans fortunes, I would be terrified Nnambi would blow out a knee in training camp and be lost for the season. While that is not a good argument for not signing a draft pick, it does touch on the realities of the NFL. With the realities of injuries, it is often better to strengthen depth and add 3 or 4 talented players to a team rather than grab one, single player in hopes that his presence creates a chain reaction for the rest of the defense... what happens when he gets hurt?

I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 12:14 PM
They were in the AFC Championship Game. I'm pretty sure they would have continued their next seasons as a top team with top management, coaches and players and probably had SB success. I mean you could play this game all day. What is Jackie Smith hadn't have dropped the TD from Staubach..would they then be the team of the 70s. The Tuck Rule sucks but it was the rule. I hate what if games because it allows people to imagine 5 years of the Texans being a few plays from yearly playoff players.

Also "things beyond their control" do not include "making" kicks your deem impossible, leading game winning drives or winning SBs. Those are talent and skill. The Tuck Rule might have been out of their hands but they were still in the AFC Championship driving.


1st- It wasn't the AFC Championship game. It was the divisional round game.

2nd- They didn't make the playoffs the next season. How would the team, organization feel about Tom Brady if he'd never won a playoff game, fumbled one away, and had the struggles that he did have the following season?

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 12:16 PM
I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.

I agree. But, I think there is a prudent way of doing it. I don't think it is most prudent to swing for home runs like Dave Kingman. I'd rather see a more thoughtful approach. That being said, they have definitely made some mistakes with inactivity in FA the past few seasons. I just don't agree that the correction to make would be to spend $100 million on a 30 year old CB.

steelbtexan
03-23-2011, 12:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Check out GP's post from above.

There are ways to open up cap room to sign the best players if you want to.

Look at the Jets, they've been major players in FA for the last 3yrs. Because they know how to manage the cap.

Not coincidently they've made it to the AFC championship game 2 yrs in a row.

They were at the same starting point as the Texans 3 yrs ago. Maybe even worse because they didn't have a QB. This is an example of how agressive management can improve your team. It's also something BoB is either incapable or unwilling to learn.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 12:24 PM
1st- It wasn't the AFC Championship game. It was the divisional round game.

2nd- They didn't make the playoffs the next season. How would the team, organization feel about Tom Brady if he'd never won a playoff game, fumbled one away, and had the struggles that he did have the following season?

Even better. So they won that game, beat the Steelers and then beat the Greatest show on turf. That isn't flukey or luck. It is a what if scenario in your head. They still had the players and organization in place the next years. Sorry but this is assinine to even think this way. It is exactly how people get 6-10 teams into the playoffs. What if Franco Harris didn't catch that ball out of midair or it was called incomplete?What if Renfro was said to have both feet down?What if the Seahawks didn't have 10 unfortunate calls against them in the SB? It didn't happen and Kraft didn't luck into his string of SBs.

And by the way, the missed the playoffs at 9-7 and then ripped off 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0. All that would not have disappeared in this magic scenario. Just like Aso wouldn't get hurt because he is a Texan so we should sign 3 Jaques Reeves clones.

disaacks3
03-23-2011, 12:24 PM
I agree. But, I think there is a prudent way of doing it. I don't think it is most prudent to swing for home runs like Dave Kingman. I'd rather see a more thoughtful approach. That being said, they have definitely made some mistakes with inactivity in FA the past few seasons. I just don't agree that the correction to make would be to spend $100 million on a 30 year old CB. Since you're being picky on others, he's still 29. (till July 6)

:neener:

Double Barrel
03-23-2011, 12:28 PM
I did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that. If not for those series of events, I doubt, though, people would see the Patriots as the premier NFL franchise.

What would happen to the Pats' and Tom Brady if the officials hadn't stolen that playoff game away from Oakland. If Brady fumbled the playoffs away and never led the game-tying and game-winning drive... and, if Adam Vinateri had not made those two impossible kicks because he was not put in position to do so... and, therefore did not kick a 48yd field goal in the Superbowl to win the game (because he wasn't there)... Are you still confident the Patroits would have been to 3 other Superbowls and Tom Brady would be a sure-fire HOF QB? I don't know what would've happened.

Brady, Belicheck, Polian, Vinateri, Kraft all deserve credit for what they've done. But, to deny that some of their success resulted from things beyond their control, is naive (to say the least).

Look, I never disputed your point that the Patriots benefited from some great luck. But, that has been the case throughout NFL history. The "Immaculate Reception" began a run of four championships for the Steelers in the '70's, "The Catch" for the 49ers runs in the '80's, and so on. We can always find examples of good luck for most successful teams. I never disputed that idea, so save your naive blast for those that argue against that specific point (which wasn't your original point, btw).

I was merely taking you to task for a blatant incorrect statement. YOU said: "Robert Kraft needed a series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England".

Then you say that you "did not say he was unsuccessful, or even hint at that."

Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Your statements contradict each other.

Kraft was clearly successful well before the events that you refer to in your original statement. History supports the fact that he was already successful before those "series of fortunate events".

Quit the straw man argument. I'm not going to be distracted by it. :fingergun:

eriadoc
03-23-2011, 12:39 PM
*SIGHS* At this point, The guy could come out & say what everyone wanted to hear & would recieve criticism for it.

Exactly right. So the best thing to do would be to shut his yap, especially when fans are pissed about the work stoppage. When anything you say will foster resentment, say nothing. Seems logical to me.

GP
03-23-2011, 12:44 PM
I get what you're saying.

But you cant live in the fear of what ifs.

to be successful in any business (except the NFL) you have to take some chances.

Unless you've done some insider trading with your Enron stocks and there's still the chance you could get caught.

I see what youd did right there...LOL. Nicely done.

HOU-TEX
03-23-2011, 12:50 PM
Exactly right. So the best thing to do would be to shut his yap, especially when fans are pissed about the work stoppage. When anything you say will foster resentment, say nothing. Seems logical to me.

Agreed! I'm so frustrated with the entire NFL right now...they can all kiss my ass. Every last one of them should shut the hell up and get busy on an actual CBA rather than spewing garbage. Do they actually think we're going to believe them?! And, if I hear any of them, players or owners, speak of "it's about the fans" I'm going to mentally *****-slap them and dislike them instantaneously

HOU-TEX random rant concluded

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seaons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!! How the heck do you even try to compare this owner to McNair, whose embracing of mediocrity is the exact opposite? Kraft never would have extended Kubiak's contract, hired a noob GM, and then kept them after regressing and no playoff appearances!

There is absolutely no valid comparison between the Patriots and Texans or Robert Kraft and Bob McNair. I find the subject to be goofy, to put it politely.

He fired him after three seasons because Carroll was handed a team that had been in the SB and it got worse each year under Carroll's coaching. So no that isn't similar to Kubiak's situation at all. Of course that makes projections of what Kraft would have done based on those events unrealistic as well.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 01:07 PM
We never even gave Brees a look, IIRC. Not even a LOOK.

For every Arian Foster on this team, there's 25 Drew Brees-type players out there that the Texans just somehow aren't interested in.Here's a quote by dalemurphy I'd like to address, as well:



Yes, dale, the problem has been with implementation. By the way, who "implements" things around the Texans organization? A combination of guys, namely Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak--The two chief "implementators" of the Texans.

And who retained those two guys, dale? Yes, it was the owner. Bob McNair.

And this, IMO, is why people are just dead dog tired of whatever comes from McNair's mouth. We get it already: He's going to say what we want to hear, what seems "applaudible," and then grab your ankles and hold on for the probing maneuver.

Here's what's going to happen, IMO: We're going to have a serious sit-down with Aso...and he's going to use us to up the bidding war amongst the teams he REALLY wants to play for. Happens every time, and it happens because the guys who are "implementing" things have proven they can't get to the big game. To the Big Show. These players want the payday, and they want the ring(s) too. It's a package deal, and they're going to use us to get to those better teams who have better implementators than we do.

Therefore, Bob has a stigma to overcome. A stigma he himself created by not being smarter about the football side of operations. His own damn fault, and we're paying for it on our end. We get to sit and watch a guy try to copycat and pussyfoot his way around building a real team in the NFL.


Nothing you say can be taken seriously after the bolded..


Hyperbole at its finest....really 25 drew brees types... every year? really? Furthermore, is it really the Texans FO fault that players use them as a team to help up the ante for teams they want to play for? If anything that makes the Texans FO look better b/c what it means is that they are fielding competitive offers to these guys.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 01:21 PM
Why it's not your $$$$. Unless you're BoB.

I really dont care if he signs FA's or not. I just wanta great product on the field and so far for a decade under McNairs leadership the Texans have = success at the bank and fail on the field.

I dont understand why a fan wouldn't want his owner to bring in the best players in FA. Because teams that have the best talent usually win.

Why wouldn't you want an owner who like Snyder who altough he hasn't been successful puts his $$$$ where his mouth is, Unlike BoB who for the last 3 yrs has been saying this is a playoff team. But when they fail to achieve what was his stated goal. He not only doesn't fire his GM and HC. He re-ups them. Things like this make me ? his comittment to winning.

But what you're not understanding is that putting your money where your mouth is & fielding a competitive product are by & large independent of each other. Spending tons of money doesn't necessarily = fielding a competitive product on the field & vice versa. As many of us have shown, the most successful teams over the last 10 years (Patriots, Colts, Steelers) have been organization that didn't spend tons of money in FA or land a pepper-esque FA. Stop linking the 2 together as if 1 equals the other.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 01:46 PM
But what you're not understanding is that putting your money where your mouth is & fielding a competitive product are by & large independent of each other. Spending tons of money doesn't necessarily = fielding a competitive product on the field & vice versa. As many of us have shown, the most successful teams over the last 10 years (Patriots, Colts, Steelers) have been organization that didn't spend tons of money in FA or land a pepper-esque FA. Stop linking the 2 together as if 1 equals the other.

You still don't understand the concept. No one is linking them like spending = win. But there has been links in the past to spending on TOP football players and an upgrade on a team....guys that are tops at their position. Let's also not fool ourselves that these teams don't spend money or make moves...Pats trade for Moss. They just aren't afraid to let go of guys before their time is up and replace them. All of these things are foreign here. Again I'm not advocating outbidding everyone by 5 mil to grab Aso. I'm asking to compete for him and see if he bites. Be willing to move a million or so to get a top of the line star.

drs23
03-23-2011, 01:50 PM
...What if Franco Harris didn't catch that ball out of midair or it was called incomplete?What if Renfro was said to have both feet down?What if the Seahawks didn't have 10 unfortunate calls against them in the SB? It didn't happen and Kraft didn't luck into his string of SBs...

He DID make that catch! :stirpot:

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 01:51 PM
He DID make that catch! :stirpot:

Completely agree!!

gary
03-23-2011, 01:55 PM
I am not kidding myself all I know what the Texans have been doing since they became a team has not worked out for whatever reason.

GP
03-23-2011, 01:58 PM
Nothing you say can be taken seriously after the bolded..


Hyperbole at its finest....really 25 drew brees types... every year? really? Furthermore, is it really the Texans FO fault that players use them as a team to help up the ante for teams they want to play for? If anything that makes the Texans FO look better b/c what it means is that they are fielding competitive offers to these guys.

Did I say "every year"? No, I didn't. You said I did.

Yet you're the one saying that people will just read into McNair's comments whatever they wish. Pot meet kettle much?

As far as anyone believing everything I say...man, just give it a break already. This is a message board. There is truth, hyperbole, sarcasm, opinion, drunk incoherent rambling (I'm looking at you, Texan Bill) all intertwined with one another.

What we have to go on is this team's past, and the actions of the owner juxtaposed with his words. After nine years, what you hear (from Bob) and what you get (from Bob) are usually not the same thing.

(see, I'm trying to veer us from a one-on-one spat with each other and back to the main topic)

We're not going to add an impact player. We're going to add a mystery meat guy who they think Wade or Gary can "coach up." Both these coaches said they could make do with what they were given by McNair, there'll be no top-flight players headed this way unless said players are looking for Easy Street in terms of just cashing checks with no real promise of getting a ring.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 02:11 PM
You still don't understand the concept. No one is linking them like spending = win. But there has been links in the past to spending on TOP football players and an upgrade on a team....guys that are tops at their position. Let's also not fool ourselves that these teams don't spend money or make moves...Pats trade for Moss. They just aren't afraid to let go of guys before their time is up and replace them. All of these things are foreign here. Again I'm not advocating outbidding everyone by 5 mil to grab Aso. I'm asking to compete for him and see if he bites. Be willing to move a million or so to get a top of the line star.


You may not HF, but some here do...see steelbtexan's post i responded to. To add to that point, people wouldn't be referencing the money Mcnair's making from the texans if they didn't think that the guy was being cheap in FA.

As for Moss, He was thought largely to be done when he went to NE, hardly a top FA on the order of acquiring a caliber player like Aso.

Look, I'm not saying that those teams didn't spend money in FA...they do/have. Their moves however have been similar to how the texans have made moves in FA though...patch player here, patch player there, no one really notable.

At the end of the day, No one outside of kirby really knows if they're fielding or at least prepared to field competing offers to these top guys. We're mainly just assuming b/c we haven't landed those guys & b/c we haven't won anything. As if, the player/agent don't have a role in all of this. As if it's simply a matter of fielding a competitive offer. There's so much more that goes into landing guys in FA....double that crap when it's a highly sought after FA. So in the end, you might not be saying outbid everyone by 5 mil, but that's what it takes to land these guys when you're a team with no history, no tradition & no recent success.

I mean really, would it make it any more tolerable to watch this team lose year in & out if we knew for a fact that they fielded competitive offers to the top guys in FA for the last 9 years? Odds are for most fans probably not.

eriadoc
03-23-2011, 02:11 PM
http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/renfro_catch_01.jpg

http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/renfro_catch_02.jpg

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 02:23 PM
You may not HF, but some here do...see steelbtexan's post i responded to. To add to that point, people wouldn't be referencing the money Mcnair's making from the texans if they didn't think that the guy was being cheap in FA.

As for Moss, He was thought largely to be done when he went to NE, hardly a top FA on the order of acquiring a caliber player like Aso.

Look, I'm not saying that those teams didn't spend money in FA...they do/have. Their moves however have been similar to how the texans have made moves in FA though...patch player here, patch player there, no one really notable.

At the end of the day, No one outside of kirby really knows if they're fielding or at least prepared to field competing offers to these top guys. We're mainly just assuming b/c we haven't landed those guys & b/c we haven't won anything. As if, the player/agent don't have a role in all of this. As if it's simply a matter of fielding a competitive offer. There's so much more that goes into landing guys in FA....double that crap when it's a highly sought after FA. So in the end, you might not be saying outbid everyone by 5 mil, but that's what it takes to land these guys when you're a team with no history, no tradition & no recent success.

I mean really, would it make it any more tolerable to watch this team lose year in & out if we knew for a fact that they fielded competitive offers to the top guys in FA for the last 9 years? Odds are for most fans probably not.

I'll agree with this paragraph. I think early on with the facilities, city, newness etc they could woo some guys...I think as the years have added up and the losing has continued, I'm not sure getting guys here is easier and I'm not sure if McNair would outbid anyone if it got to that.

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 02:25 PM
You still don't understand the concept. No one is linking them like spending = win. But there has been links in the past to spending on TOP football players and an upgrade on a team....guys that are tops at their position. Let's also not fool ourselves that these teams don't spend money or make moves...Pats trade for Moss. They just aren't afraid to let go of guys before their time is up and replace them. All of these things are foreign here. Again I'm not advocating outbidding everyone by 5 mil to grab Aso. I'm asking to compete for him and see if he bites. Be willing to move a million or so to get a top of the line star.

I certainly want them to talk to Aso but frankly I have concerns about the wisdom of it. Is he willing to take a pay cut from the absurd contract he has been playing under or is he going to want a raise? He has been making over 50% more than the CB franchise tag cost ($9.5 mil) and that number is elevated substantially by his contract. A reasonable approach to me seems to call up and offer a long term deal at franchise tag range numbers. But if he wants as much or more than he just got, $15 mil per year, I'd say thanks and hang up.

gary
03-23-2011, 02:32 PM
I would sign a CB or two who is top notch but not the best and then look for a DT. DE and a strong safety is another safe bet. That being said if Aso wants to come here I would not just turn my head the other way of course.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 02:36 PM
I certainly want them to talk to Aso but frankly I have concerns about the wisdom of it. Is he willing to take a pay cut from the absurd contract he has been playing under or is he going to want a raise? He has been making over 50% more than the CB franchise tag cost ($9.5 mil) and that number is elevated substantially by his contract. A reasonable approach to me seems to call up and offer a long term deal at franchise tag range numbers. But if he wants as much or more than he just got, $15 mil per year, I'd say thanks and hang up.

You know what...that may be prudent but at least I'd applaud that effort. I'd might even offer 16 and then see who bids..maybe if your close debate higher. You could bring him in for talks. Try and convince him that he is the missing piece and that he has an O that can put up points if he does his part. You would at least like to see it. I actually think Cromartie would be worth it but I think we all know that guy isn't coming near Reliant with his background. I'd be highly surprised.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 02:38 PM
I would sign a CB or two who is top notch but not the best and then look for a DT. DE and a strong safety is another safe bet. That being said if Aso wants to come here I would not just turn my head the other way of course.

I think we're all on the same page with that. If Aso expresses interest i'm sure the texans FO would listen..as they did with schoebel. Where the departure is among fans is some believe pay him whatever he wants just get him here, while others have no issue with the FO hanging up if he's being ridiculous.

Mr teX
03-23-2011, 02:41 PM
You know what...that may be prudent but at least I'd applaud that effort. I'd might even offer 16 and then see who bids. You could bring him in for talks. Try and convince him that he is the missing piece and that he has an O that can put up points if he does his part. I actually think Cromartie would be worth it but I think we all know that guy isn't coming near Reliant with his background. I'd be highly surprised.

chances are though HF, if they simply called him up & didn't like what they heard....you'd never hear of that being done & the perception would be that we never even inquired about him in the 1st place. Having said that, we know this place would be going bat s&*^ crazy.

gary
03-23-2011, 02:47 PM
I think we're all on the same page with that. If Aso expresses interest i'm sure the texans FO would listen..as they did with schoebel. Where the departure is among fans is some believe pay him whatever he wants just get him here, while others have no issue with the FO hanging up if he's being ridiculous.The Texans have multi needs on defense which is why they should not break the bank for any one player.

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 02:48 PM
You know what...that may be prudent but at least I'd applaud that effort. I'd might even offer 16 and then see who bids..maybe if your close debate higher. You could bring him in for talks. Try and convince him that he is the missing piece and that he has an O that can put up points if he does his part. You would at least like to see it. I actually think Cromartie would be worth it but I think we all know that guy isn't coming near Reliant with his background. I'd be highly surprised.

I just think that is too much money or more importantly (since it isn't my money) too high a percentage of the salary cap (anticipating there will be one again) for any player other than the QB and even then only for an ultra elite QB. If he won't see he has been dramatically over payed by a senile owner I would rather see them sign Brent Grimes and Eric Weddle (and probably still save money).

Double Barrel
03-23-2011, 04:23 PM
He fired him after three seasons because Carroll was handed a team that had been in the SB and it got worse each year under Carroll's coaching. So no that isn't similar to Kubiak's situation at all. Of course that makes projections of what Kraft would have done based on those events unrealistic as well.

I never said different.

Kraft fired Pete Carroll after going to the playoffs for two seasons. He fired him after an 8-8 season!!!

I stated what happened. You stated why it happened.

I never said it was similar to Kubiak's situation, as I wasn't comparing coaches. I was making a point about owners and that bringing Kraft into a discussion about McNair is just illogical. Even by your own point, Kraft holds his staff accountable for getting worse, which is the complete opposite of our owner. Spin it however you want, but it doesn't change that simple fact.

My entire point was that Dale was simply wrong in trying to attribute Kraft's success to a "series of fortunate events to begin his success in New England". If Dale cannot admit he misspoke, then he can just be a know-it-all in his own mind, because I know better as a fan of NFL history.

Texanmike02
03-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Just offer Aso a controling share of the Texans, Rockets and Astros... and a Yao Ming autograph. That should get him here.

Mike

gary
03-23-2011, 04:33 PM
Just offer Aso a controling share of the Texans, Rockets and Astros... and a Yao Ming autograph. That should get him here.

MikeYao Ming might even give him a nice meal.

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 04:40 PM
I have a solution: A CBA is reached and the Texans win 12 games this season. Then, we all get together for some serious tailgating for our first home divisional playoff game. Keep that second or third Sunday in January. I'll buy the first beer for each one of you. We'll be in an RV in the orange lot. Just PM your commitment to attend. I'll take care of the food, too. See you in 10 months!

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 05:02 PM
I stated what happened. You stated why it happened.

Yup and it makes a difference.

I never said it was similar to Kubiak's situation, as I wasn't comparing coaches.

Never said you did. I was adding detail.

I was making a point about owners and that bringing Kraft into a discussion about McNair is just illogical. Even by your own point, Kraft holds his staff accountable for getting worse, which is the complete opposite of our owner. Spin it however you want, but it doesn't change that simple fact.

Well I would say you are the one spinning here if you try to act like you know what Kraft would have done with Kubiak. We agree Carroll and Kubiak came into totally dissimilar situations. But somehow you want to project that an owner who put up with three progressively worse years of results would have been quicker on the draw when this is Kubiak's first year of regression. Look at that again 3 progressively worse years v. 1 year of regression. That's not an argument for Kubiak not being fired so don't confuse that.

Dale can speak to the fortunate events stuff.

HoustonFrog
03-23-2011, 05:11 PM
Yup and it makes a difference.



Never said you did. I was adding detail.



Well I would say you are the one spinning here if you try to act like you know what Kraft would have done with Kubiak. We agree Carroll and Kubiak came into totally dissimilar situations. But somehow you want to project that an owner who put up with three progressively worse years of results would have been quicker on the draw when this is Kubiak's first year of regression. Look at that again 3 progressively worse years v. 1 year of regression. That's not an argument for Kubiak not being fired so don't confuse that.

Dale can speak to the fortunate events stuff.

I know you aren't saying what Kubiak has done is commendable or that he should still be here but 5 years of no playoffs and 1 regression from .500 type ball is not the same as winning records that bottom out at .500. At least not to me. They are different situations but I have a hard time believing that any other owner would have kept what the Texans have considering that it has only happened once in the modern era(corrected that from before)

I'll move along from that. Wish the CBA would get signed.:shots:

Rey
03-23-2011, 05:24 PM
I really couldn't care less about what other owners have done or haven't done.

I know that our situation has sucked and until proven otherwise, sucks.

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 05:35 PM
I know you aren't saying what Kubiak has done is commendable or that he should still be here but 5 years of no playoffs and 1 regression from .500 type ball is not the same as winning records that bottom out at .500. At least not to me. They are different situations but I have a hard time believing that any other owner would have kept what the Texans have considering that it has only happened once in the modern era(corrected that from before)

I'll move along from that. Wish the CBA would get signed.:shots:

I hear you. Like not knowing who we talk to or what we offer on free agents (whenever that happens) we will never know what McNair would have done if there was a CBA in place either. The lack of one is a confounding factor in all this.

I do think Kraft's patience is being under appreciated. Yeah Carroll bottomed out at .500 but when you hand somebody the keys to a Ferrari you don't expect their lap times to get slower and slower such that Camaros are passing them. Carroll had no good years relative to when he took the team over. Clearly Kubiak's improvement has underwhelmed but until this year (actually even this year - they regressed but not to the prior level) it has been a decided improvement over what was turned over to him.

Double Barrel
03-23-2011, 05:52 PM
Yup and it makes a difference.



Never said you did. I was adding detail.



Well I would say you are the one spinning here if you try to act like you know what Kraft would have done with Kubiak. We agree Carroll and Kubiak came into totally dissimilar situations. But somehow you want to project that an owner who put up with three progressively worse years of results would have been quicker on the draw when this is Kubiak's first year of regression. Look at that again 3 progressively worse years v. 1 year of regression. That's not an argument for Kubiak not being fired so don't confuse that.

Dale can speak to the fortunate events stuff.

Based upon Kraft's modus operandi, I think it is fair to say that he would not have lived with five years of mediocre results from Kubiak.

Carroll won the division and won the first playoff game in his first year.

They went to the playoffs and lost his second season.

He was fired after 8-8 in his third season.

Based upon this history, to act like Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years of mediocrity is just being obtuse.

Nobody knows exactly what he would have done, and I did not make that claim. But deductive reasoning from history can lead a person to believe one scenario is simply more plausible than the other. Do YOU honestly think Kraft would tolerate five years of 37-43 Kubiak?

dalemurphy
03-23-2011, 05:57 PM
Based upon Kraft's modus operandi, I think it is fair to say that he would not have lived with five years of mediocre results from Kubiak.

Carroll won the division and won the first playoff game in his first year.

They went to the playoffs and lost his second season.

He was fired after 8-8 in his third season.

Based upon this history, to act like Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years of mediocrity is just being obtuse.

Nobody knows exactly what he would have done, and I did not make that claim. But deductive reasoning from history can lead a person to believe one scenario is simply more plausible than the other. Do YOU honestly think Kraft would tolerate five years of 37-43 Kubiak?


This season marks the first time in McNair's tenure that he has not removed a coach after the team took a step backwards in W-L record. And, had it not been for the CBA situation, I don't think he would have kept Kubiak... For those of you wanting a better coach, realize that all the top names remained on the sideline this off-season despite a number of job openings.

Do you think Kraft would've fired a coach who took over a 2-14 team and did the following: 6-10, 8-8, 8-8, 9-7? Maybe... but, I'm not sure.

gary
03-23-2011, 06:05 PM
This season marks the first time in McNair's tenure that he has not removed a coach after the team took a step backwards in W-L record. And, had it not been for the CBA situation, I don't think he would have kept Kubiak... For those of you wanting a better coach, realize that all the top names remained on the sideline this off-season despite a number of job openings.

Do you think Kraft would've fired a coach who took over a 2-14 team and did the following: 6-10, 8-8, 8-8, 9-7? Maybe... but, I'm not sure.
I bet he would have but that is not 100 percent certain no one can be that certain about firing someone.

infantrycak
03-23-2011, 06:16 PM
Do YOU honestly think Kraft would tolerate five years of 37-43 Kubiak?

You know me. I am willing to say "I don't know" and on this one I really don't think there is a sound prediction. I could easily see Kraft going either way particularly because of the CBA situation. Different time, place and circumstance.

VTexan
03-23-2011, 06:58 PM
http://i.imgur.com/xR7Ie.jpg

CloakNNNdagger
03-23-2011, 10:06 PM
http://i.imgur.com/xR7Ie.jpg

.........Definitely nothing crazy...........

http://i6.piczo.com/view/2/i/n/g/g/0/b/j/g/m/u/x/img/t184709982_20236_3.gif

Hervoyel
03-23-2011, 10:17 PM
The Texans doing something they think is crazy might actually be interesting.

I've been watching them do things they think make sense for nine years and that's been enough to convince me that they're either intentionally trying to suck for some reason or are run by blindfolded imbeciles taking instructions from a Ouija board in a dark room.

Go ahead Bob, try some crazy shit. What's the worst thing that could happen?

VTexan
03-23-2011, 11:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/K9BHI.jpg

Lucky
03-23-2011, 11:53 PM
Trading for P Burnt #We're not going to do something we think is crazy

phantom17
03-24-2011, 09:33 AM
............tony Hollins!:foottap:

gafftop
03-24-2011, 11:37 AM
What the New England Patriots do is trade players when they still have value and they can still get draft picks etc that will improve the team. We could do the same by trading Mario maybe? I say maybe because he may not have a lot of value, I am not sure. Correct me if I am wrong but I think this is his last year under contract. He may or may not perform well this year under the new scheme. I think he will be motivated this year because it is a contract year. If he is able physically is an ongoing question. Whatever happens this year I think now is the time to trade him IF he has value. If he does great this year are you willing to sign him to a HUGE contract and hope he has the motivation once he has more money. If he gets hurt again what is his value? If he is not suited to this defense what is his value to the Texans? Don't know the details on what we could expect to get for him if we do not resign him at the end of the season, but I would guess he is more valuble in a trade now. Just too many questions surrounding Mario. Just my opinion.

GP
03-24-2011, 11:52 AM
What the New England Patriots do is trade players when they still have value and they can still get draft picks etc that will improve the team. We could do the same by trading Mario maybe? I say maybe because he may not have a lot of value, I am not sure. Correct me if I am wrong but I think this is his last year under contract. He may or may not perform well this year under the new scheme. I think he will be motivated this year because it is a contract year. If he is able physically is an ongoing question. Whatever happens this year I think now is the time to trade him IF he has value. If he does great this year are you willing to sign him to a HUGE contract and hope he has the motivation once he has more money. If he gets hurt again what is his value? If he is not suited to this defense what is his value to the Texans? Don't know the details on what we could expect to get for him if we do not resign him at the end of the season, but I would guess he is more valuble in a trade now. Just too many questions surrounding Mario. Just my opinion.

I'm with ya 100%, man.

Mario is Mario, and I won't sit here and say "he stinks" or anything foolish like that. He's been on a consistently bad defense his whole career here. I think we should get value for him NOW, unlike what we have done in the past--Which is to stick with a guy too long and then you get jack squat for them.

I do think that the Texans organization has fallen in love with the person, and not the player though. They fell in love with David Carr and kept him one more season than necessary. They fell in love with Dunta and kept him here one more season than necessary. And they're gonna' do the same thing with Mario Williams, except he's likely to get a big fat payday instead of exiting the doors of Reliant.

Why?

My theory is that it's a marketing decision. McNair has his "chosen ones" that he thinks adds credibility and marketability to his team. In place of good old fashioned WINNING, we have a LOSING team that needs its guys who stand out and serve as beacons of light in an otherwise dark and stormy night.

Plus, McNair has shown just an over-the-top preference for Do-Goody behavior. Let's all be one big, happy family and get through this together! He can't let go of what's not working, either out of arrogance/pride or plain old sentimentalism. Or both.

"We're not going to do anything crazy" is becoming a meme on this thread. I've enjoyed the images you guys have created thus far, btw. Very entertaining. But be careful...there are those who think you can't laugh at the Texans. Continue onward anyways, that's my advice. I'd be joining you, but my Macbook Pro laptop is down :( and I have a thread in the Graphics and Tech Talk forum if anybody has a Mac laptop and can help me sort it out.

El Tejano
03-24-2011, 11:54 AM
What the New England Patriots do is trade players when they still have value and they can still get draft picks etc that will improve the team. We could do the same by trading Mario maybe? I say maybe because he may not have a lot of value, I am not sure. Correct me if I am wrong but I think this is his last year under contract. He may or may not perform well this year under the new scheme. I think he will be motivated this year because it is a contract year. If he is able physically is an ongoing question. Whatever happens this year I think now is the time to trade him IF he has value. If he does great this year are you willing to sign him to a HUGE contract and hope he has the motivation once he has more money. If he gets hurt again what is his value? If he is not suited to this defense what is his value to the Texans? Don't know the details on what we could expect to get for him if we do not resign him at the end of the season, but I would guess he is more valuble in a trade now. Just too many questions surrounding Mario. Just my opinion.


All the things I've stated before but get laughed at for saying. I like Mario, but maybe trading him would help this team be better. Of course it will not happen because Mcnair knew he would sink or swim with Mario and because Wade said he could try some Bruce Smith things with Mario which means Mcnair will want to see if Mario can be better.

Double Barrel
03-24-2011, 11:59 AM
You know me. I am willing to say "I don't know" and on this one I really don't think there is a sound prediction. I could easily see Kraft going either way particularly because of the CBA situation. Different time, place and circumstance.

Yeah, like I said, nobody knows with 100% certainty.

But, we are always free to 'form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence',
you know - speculate. :fingergun:

Blake
03-24-2011, 12:08 PM
http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/6480338/Bob-McNair-Y-U-NO-DO-SOMETHING-CRAZY.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Y-U-NO

GP
03-24-2011, 12:33 PM
http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/6480338/Bob-McNair-Y-U-NO-DO-SOMETHING-CRAZY.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Y-U-NO

Winning.

thunderkyss
03-24-2011, 12:51 PM
They were in the AFC Championship Game. I'm pretty sure they would have continued their next seasons as a top team with top management, coaches and players and probably had SB success.

But we know what happened to Bledsoe after he left New England. There is no reason to believe he would have done any different in New England.

dalemurphy is saying had Bledsoe not got hurt, and they found Brady, who knows what could have happened.

They were successful with Bledsoe, but Bledsoe was never going to win the SB at that time (I believe he got pretty injury prone & shell shocked).

Brady may have disappeared into obscurity (I believe he was third on the depth chart) and maybe out of the league.

We don't know one way or the other. What we do know, is that two QBs got hurt before Brady took the field.

That wasn't an example of a well managed, hiring the best people kind of thing.

Same with Belichick..... I can't remember the specifics, but wasn't he supposed to go to the Jets????? but decided to go to New England instead?

Not because Kraft was the guy he wanted to work for, or because he offered more money, but because Belichick was upset about something or other?

HoustonFrog
03-24-2011, 01:06 PM
But we know what happened to Bledsoe after he left New England. There is no reason to believe he would have done any different in New England.

dalemurphy is saying had Bledsoe not got hurt, and they found Brady, who knows what could have happened.

They were successful with Bledsoe, but Bledsoe was never going to win the SB at that time (I believe he got pretty injury prone & shell shocked).

Brady may have disappeared into obscurity (I believe he was third on the depth chart) and maybe out of the league.

We don't know one way or the other. What we do know, is that two QBs got hurt before Brady took the field.

That wasn't an example of a well managed, hiring the best people kind of thing.

Same with Belichick..... I can't remember the specifics, but wasn't he supposed to go to the Jets????? but decided to go to New England instead?

Not because Kraft was the guy he wanted to work for, or because he offered more money, but because Belichick was upset about something or other?

That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.

GP
03-24-2011, 01:26 PM
That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.

What's interesting is that it appears there is a sector of people who think success isn't entirely or exclusively earned, but rather it's in conjunction with good fortune. Luck, good fortune, a series of circumstantial events. Fate.

This explains why some are a little bit more "chill" as it pertains to whether a coach should be fired or not.

I'm not saying that the Rabitt's Foot gang doesn't think Kubiak should have been fired--A lot of them have said that he should have been fired. But I think it explains their willingness to not get their panties in a bunch like the Soapers have over the deal. Too many factors involved, possibly, to say it was this or that (exclusively).

THEORY: Soapers think the end result is a sum total of the efforts of the people in charge of managing, planning, coaching, and playing the game of football. Rabbit Footers think that an element outside the control of man is linked to the end result (in addition to managing, planning, etc.).

This could explain why each side is entrenched against the other so often. On one side, there are those who think you can rise above and conquer any obstacle in your path--It's you vs. the world, find a way to adapt and overcome. On the other side of the aisle, there's a group who indeed values all of those ideals yet also thinks there's a certain ceiling you reach pertaining to the element of "What if Drew Bledsoe was never injured?"

My reasoning dictates that it was inevitable that Brady was going to get a shot. In the NFL, things seem to level themselves out pretty well. The NFL has always held intrugue for me because it's a place where everyone figures out fairly quickly who has the goods and who doesn't--The only squelching of talent seemingly arises either out of injury to the upward-trending athlete (Bo Jackson), trouble with the law (Burress), just flat out leaving the game altogether (Barry Sanders, Glen Coffe, etc.), or an owner and/or coach/GM who falls in love with the starter and doesn't have the good sense to see that the 2nd or 3rd string guy is the better option.

Even in the face of all those things I listed above, the best in the NFL seemingly find a way to rise to the top. One way or another, whether it's in camp, preseason games, injuries, a contract dispute and subsequent trading/releasing of the player, etc....all roads lead to the guy with the best talent getting his shot at some point or another.

To me, this renders the "What if Drew Bledsoe had never been injured" scenarios a bit of a moot point. What if Jimmy Johnson had never become a coach at all, what if he was a tire salesman instead? What if there wasn't an NFL at all? What if, what if, what if, etc. I think there is certainly something to the idea that a good bounce here, or a bad call by a ref there, can impact the end result.

I just think nothing of what I have seen from the Texans has shown me that they have a smidgen of ability to test the top tier of the NFL and truly challenge those teams in a one-on-one gameday situation for a chance at a SB ring. The offense? Maybe. Yet they still are a tricky group to rely upon when you look at 2010's efforts all season long.

I think we're a team that doesn't know how to deal with adversity and unfortunate bounces to the point of taking it by the tail and just throwing it out of the entire stadium. No killer instinct, IMO. No do-or-die persona, IMO. And I think that eminates from the top (McNair) to the middle (Kubiak) to the bottom (Players). There's a sense of "Gosh darn, we're gettin' our stuff together and we'll get there soon! Just hold on, everybody! We're a'comin..."

Grates on some people's nerves.

Double Barrel
03-24-2011, 01:34 PM
But we know what happened to Bledsoe after he left New England. There is no reason to believe he would have done any different in New England.

dalemurphy is saying had Bledsoe not got hurt, and they found Brady, who knows what could have happened.

They were successful with Bledsoe, but Bledsoe was never going to win the SB at that time (I believe he got pretty injury prone & shell shocked).

Brady may have disappeared into obscurity (I believe he was third on the depth chart) and maybe out of the league.

We don't know one way or the other. What we do know, is that two QBs got hurt before Brady took the field.

That wasn't an example of a well managed, hiring the best people kind of thing.

Same with Belichick..... I can't remember the specifics, but wasn't he supposed to go to the Jets????? but decided to go to New England instead?

Not because Kraft was the guy he wanted to work for, or because he offered more money, but because Belichick was upset about something or other?

Brady was no. 2 on the roster when Bledsoe got hurt. Brady was drafted in 2000 and started in the 2001 season.

Don't forget Bledsoe played QB in the AFC Championship game that year when Brady got hurt, so I'm not sure about him being shell-shocked. He performed when called upon and they went to the Super Bowl as a result.

Mr teX
03-24-2011, 04:40 PM
What's interesting is that it appears there is a sector of people who think success isn't entirely or exclusively earned, but rather it's in conjunction with good fortune. Luck, good fortune, a series of circumstantial events. Fate.

This explains why some are a little bit more "chill" as it pertains to whether a coach should be fired or not.

I'm not saying that the Rabitt's Foot gang doesn't think Kubiak should have been fired--A lot of them have said that he should have been fired. But I think it explains their willingness to not get their panties in a bunch like the Soapers have over the deal. Too many factors involved, possibly, to say it was this or that (exclusively).

THEORY: Soapers think the end result is a sum total of the efforts of the people in charge of managing, planning, coaching, and playing the game of football. Rabbit Footers think that an element outside the control of man is linked to the end result (in addition to managing, planning, etc.).

This could explain why each side is entrenched against the other so often. On one side, there are those who think you can rise above and conquer any obstacle in your path--It's you vs. the world, find a way to adapt and overcome. On the other side of the aisle, there's a group who indeed values all of those ideals yet also thinks there's a certain ceiling you reach pertaining to the element of "What if Drew Bledsoe was never injured?"

My reasoning dictates that it was inevitable that Brady was going to get a shot. In the NFL, things seem to level themselves out pretty well. The NFL has always held intrugue for me because it's a place where everyone figures out fairly quickly who has the goods and who doesn't--The only squelching of talent seemingly arises either out of injury to the upward-trending athlete (Bo Jackson), trouble with the law (Burress), just flat out leaving the game altogether (Barry Sanders, Glen Coffe, etc.), or an owner and/or coach/GM who falls in love with the starter and doesn't have the good sense to see that the 2nd or 3rd string guy is the better option.

Even in the face of all those things I listed above, the best in the NFL seemingly find a way to rise to the top. One way or another, whether it's in camp, preseason games, injuries, a contract dispute and subsequent trading/releasing of the player, etc....all roads lead to the guy with the best talent getting his shot at some point or another.

To me, this renders the "What if Drew Bledsoe had never been injured" scenarios a bit of a moot point. What if Jimmy Johnson had never become a coach at all, what if he was a tire salesman instead? What if there wasn't an NFL at all? What if, what if, what if, etc. I think there is certainly something to the idea that a good bounce here, or a bad call by a ref there, can impact the end result.

I just think nothing of what I have seen from the Texans has shown me that they have a smidgen of ability to test the top tier of the NFL and truly challenge those teams in a one-on-one gameday situation for a chance at a SB ring. The offense? Maybe. Yet they still are a tricky group to rely upon when you look at 2010's efforts all season long.

I think we're a team that doesn't know how to deal with adversity and unfortunate bounces to the point of taking it by the tail and just throwing it out of the entire stadium. No killer instinct, IMO. No do-or-die persona, IMO. And I think that eminates from the top (McNair) to the middle (Kubiak) to the bottom (Players). There's a sense of "Gosh darn, we're gettin' our stuff together and we'll get there soon! Just hold on, everybody! We're a'comin..."

Grates on some people's nerves.

For once i actually agree with you...mostly anyway. But any champion & near-champion for that matter will tell you that with all that talent & preparation you have to have some "lucky bounces" to get you through or that kill you. It's just a merely a matter of when that luck decides to present itself. How much of that factors into any given season depends.

There is absolutely no way you'll be able to convince me or anyone else that Eli Manning escaping from that sack & Tyree catching that ball on his frickin helmet was something they prepared for, or that Eli Manning & Tyree were just that good...Tyree's out of the league now & Eli Manning hasn't been able to duplicate that kind of end of season run since that year.

The 98' Vikings...everyone just knew they were going to the superbowl that year. Sure, ATL played them tough, but now their kicker, who hadn't missed all year was about to seal the deal with a 40 yd. chipshot...oh wait, he just missed though. Coincidentally the Vikings' best defensive player, Jon Randle, got knocked out of that game early. You don't think that Gary Anderson catching a case of the shanks and Jon Randle being sidelined early in that game wasn't some of the most timely luck ever for ATL ever?

Again, i'm not saying that teams win largely b/c of luck but, you catch my drift but lets not dismiss it all together.

All of that being said, the texans' issues aren't all attributed to luck or any 1 thing, rather a meld of 1-3 different things depending on how you want to look at it imo.

disaacks3
03-24-2011, 04:53 PM
That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring. We wouldn't have Schaub at all if Vick had been arrested earlier!

thunderkyss
03-24-2011, 07:21 PM
Based upon Kraft's modus operandi, I think it is fair to say that he would not have lived with five years of mediocre results from Kubiak.

Carroll won the division and won the first playoff game in his first year.

They went to the playoffs and lost his second season.

He was fired after 8-8 in his third season.

Based upon this history, to act like Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years of mediocrity is just being obtuse.

Nobody knows exactly what he would have done, and I did not make that claim. But deductive reasoning from history can lead a person to believe one scenario is simply more plausible than the other. Do YOU honestly think Kraft would tolerate five years of 37-43 Kubiak?

Maybe I'm missing something, but i don't believe anyone has said anything to remotely infer that Kraft would have kept Kubiak after five years.

There is also nothing (presented in this thread anyway) to suggest he wouldn't have if he were inMcNair's specific situation.

I don't know what was going on in McNairs head, but just trying to postulate why he kept Kubiak, maybe McNair reset the clock when the Texans got to 8-8 in 2008.

What are the odds that Kubiak promised more than that in just three seasons (of course that would be considering he was not given a playoff team).

I can understand McNair giving Kubiak a pass for the first three years, just to get the team to a competitive state.

While not a play-off team, it could be argued that Kubiak coached a team as good as any team in the NFL since then, and failed. I think that is definitely comparable to Kraft firing Carroll after Three years, despite a play-off appearance.....

Only it hasn't been three years. 2011 would be three years with Kubiak coaching a team that should make the play-offs.

Again, not that I believe that is what happened, nor do I have inside info as to what McNair is thinking, I'm only saying it is plausible.
.

Double Barrel
03-24-2011, 07:27 PM
Maybe I'm missing something...

Yes, you are missing something. :tiphat:

steelbtexan
03-24-2011, 07:29 PM
Yes, you are missing something. :tiphat:

Agreed

thunderkyss
03-24-2011, 07:38 PM
That is a jacked up number of what ifs. Schaub may not be playing if it weren't for the Rosencopter. I mean this happens every season. The following seasons of Patriot success was not due to all of those things. Kraft was successful before that season. Those things happening were fortunate but EVERY year stuff happens where guys get hurt and other guys step up. Kraft has the right people in place and manages the team better than the McNair does the Texans. This isn't 9 degrees of Kevin Bacon where one team is lucky and has X,Y,Z happen to have their future set and the other is run the same but has bad luck. Brady was there because they drafted him.

This is just tiring.

No, only one that matters. If Brady never started that year, the Patriots would not have 4 championships (or whatever they have).

And while they were successful prior to that, it's not like they weren't in thought of as the historically successful franchise we think of today. They didn't be log in the same conversation as the Steelers, or Packers, 49ers, or even Cowboys. They had several years of mediocrity themselves.

thunderkyss
03-24-2011, 07:43 PM
No, only one that matters. If Brady never started that year, the Patriots would not have 4 championships (or whatever they have).

And while they were successful prior to that, it's not like they weren't in thought of as the historically successful franchise we think of today. They didn't be log in the same conversation as the Steelers, or Packers, 49ers, or even Cowboys. They had several years of mediocrity themselves.

I take that back, it appears the Pats have known nothing but success sine The Kraft Group took ownership in 1994.

El Tejano
03-25-2011, 08:56 AM
I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.

Mr teX
03-25-2011, 09:18 AM
I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.

How do we know they haven't been winning those bidding wars though? After all, it is the guys they think will help them. To my knowledge, the only guys that we know they lost out on in bidding wars were Orlando Pace (if he was even seriously thinking about coming here) & Bodden; 1 wasn't nearly the player he once was & the other tore up his knee before the season started so...

El Tejano
03-25-2011, 10:28 AM
How do we know they haven't been winning those bidding wars though? After all, it is the guys they think will help them. To my knowledge, the only guys that we know they lost out on in bidding wars were Orlando Pace (if he was even seriously thinking about coming here) & Bodden; 1 wasn't nearly the player he once was & the other tore up his knee before the season started so...

Well that's kind of what I'm saying here though. If these are guys that you KNOW are going to help our team, that means you've done some research which also means you should be able to or show that you did everything possible and more to obtain those players. So now there is no excuse for not getting these players.

Like everyone said and like the sign says in the locker room "Deeds, Not Words".

CloakNNNdagger
03-25-2011, 10:30 AM
I did look over one part of the article of Mcnair's quotes. When he said that they've identified who they believe will help them in FA and that they will go after those guys. So atleast he stated that.

Now my thing about that is, if you've identified them and you know they will help your team, now I need to see you go ahead and win the bidding war on those guys and get as many of them in as possible.

Like a "silent" auction..........we will never know. Claims of phantom bids on phantom players so far.

infantrycak
03-25-2011, 10:50 AM
Well that's kind of what I'm saying here though. If these are guys that you KNOW are going to help our team, that means you've done some research which also means you should be able to or show that you did everything possible and more to obtain those players. So now there is no excuse for not getting these players.

Like everyone said and like the sign says in the locker room "Deeds, Not Words".

Like a "silent" auction..........we will never know. Claims of phantom bids on phantom players so far.

What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.

Rey
03-25-2011, 11:42 AM
What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.

Honestly, I think that if the Texans were offering all these players they would make it known.

I don't recall them being super secretive when bringing in Bodden last year...

Maybe they wouldn't disclose the details of what is being offered, but I really don't see why they would be so secretive about who they are going after...

I don't recall one time that we have signed a free agent and it just popped up out of nowhere...Seems like we always have some kinds of heads up...even when they bring in FA's during the season, we tend to know that they are interested in them before they sign...

Either way...It doesn't exactly make them look great at getting FA talent...

They either suck at convincing guys to come here/aren't offering enough money -or- they just aren't as active as one would be lead to believe.

Based on McNair saying that they "aren't going to do something crazy", I'm inclined to believe that they probably aren't as aggressive. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not. But I just don't believe that they are doing all they can behind the scenes and we just don't know about the players they are going after.

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Agreed

Yes, it appears that way. :howdy:

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 11:53 AM
What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.

You have spun this same excuse on behalf of the Texans management for over three years now and probably longer than that before I got here. It's the same typical excuse over and over like Groundhog Day. This whole "We don't know what they have tried or not tried" is really tiring and actually false, because it's very well known what teams all over the league are doing.

When teams are out there talking to other players or trying to negotiate trades it gets reported. Websites all over the place like PFT, Sporting News, and Rotoworld and all sorts of other media outlets report what teams are doing what and who they're talking to. The fact that you're still using this line to excuse the Texans management either tells me that you've never paid any attention to these sites or that you feel like you have to excuse Smithiaknair at all costs. But to sit here and say that we don't know about all this stuff is factually incorrect, because I hear about what teams are doing all around the league and the Texans are always a team that is silent practically while other teams like the Eagles, Pats, Cowboys, Giants, Jets, and a few other teams are constantly moving and shaking and in the mix of trying to improve their teams. We constantly stand pat and build through the draft and our management has said that before many times as well. So please stop saying "well we don't know and we have no idea", because we do know because it gets reported and the Texans are never in any kind of reports for anything worthy of conversation around the league hardly. The minor reports that you do hear about are only for small time barely up to par average players that we pick up that only people in here would even talk about. But it's very well known almost all of the time when teams are trying to negotiate with other teams for trades or to bring in other players that are pretty good. Player's agents leak this stuff all of the time and reporters report this stuff constantly because it's their job.

Rey
03-25-2011, 12:07 PM
Player's agents leak this stuff all of the time and reporters report this stuff constantly because it's their job.

Bingo.

It's not really a one way street with this stuff.

Player's agents leak this stuff so they can drive up the asking price from other clubs.

Even if the Texans wanted to keep this stuff secret (for reasons unbeknown to me), they would have to be like freaking KGB...

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 12:19 PM
Bingo.

It's not really a one way street with this stuff.

Player's agents leak this stuff so they can drive up the asking price from other clubs.

Even if the Texans wanted to keep this stuff secret (for reasons unbeknown to me), they would have to be like freaking KGB...

Yeah, for some reason there is still a crew in here that tries to use this same line and excuse every off season for Smithiaknair saying that we don't know what they're doing and we have no idea who they might have talked to and that's just straight bull. I read Rotoworld regularly and they report every single thing imaginable with every NFL team there is. That's their job. The Texans are practically ghosts on those main sites that report stuff. I know who the main teams are that are constantly moving and shaking and trying to improve their teams. It's all over the place if you just study what's going on with the NFL and know where to look.

The fact is that we have probably the worst GM in the league that should have never became a GM and he's just Kubiak's boy. Smith has never shown himself to be a savvy negotiator with other teams. He's very comfortable building through the draft and they've only said that like 100 times over the last 5 years. To keep saying that "we don't know" is just "excuse building" at this point for a regime that still hasn't delivered that some folks still think can deliver, but under these tactics or lack thereof I'd say, it's a horribly flawed strategy that will get us nowhere.

El Tejano
03-25-2011, 12:23 PM
Only problem is we aren't seeing or hearing about them persuing people and that is namely because of the asking price. We let go of our two starting Safeties and yet we don't even look at OJ Atogwe (sp)? Why? Player wise he has all the credentials that you want in a safety who has played in the league. That leaves only one reason - price? We don't even hear a "Hey we tried but he didn't like our price" instead we hear "We know who we are targeting" and "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"
Which to mean translates into we are going to go for a decent player at a decent price instead of a game changing player for a little higher.

The whole building through the draft excuse should've gone out the window long time ago. IMO opinion you got those core players you wanted through the draft at every position so now it's time to add some super star talent to the mix:

WR - AJ drafted
RB - UDFA Foster (got lucky there)
QB - Schaub (used a couple of 2nds to get him)
OL - Brown, and Winston (bookend tackles)
DL - Mario
LB - Ryans and Cushing
CB - The ones you drafted sucked
Safeties - Never addressed this before and we've sucked ever since.

Time to add some veterans that are better than decent.

El Tejano
03-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Yeah, for some reason there is still a crew in here that tries to use this same line and excuse every off season for Smithiaknair saying that we don't know what they're doing and we have no idea who they might have talked to and that's just straight bull. I read Rotoworld regularly and they report every single thing imaginable with every NFL team there is. That's their job. The Texans are practically ghosts on those main sites that report stuff. I know who the main teams are that are constantly moving and shaking and trying to improve their teams. It's all over the place if you just study what's going on with the NFL and know where to look.

The fact is that we have probably the worst GM in the league that should have never became a GM and he's just Kubiak's boy. Smith has never shown himself to be a savvy negotiator with other teams. He's very comfortable building through the draft and they've only said that like 100 times over the last 5 years. To keep saying that "we don't know" is just "excuse building" at this point for a regime that still hasn't delivered that some folks still think can deliver, but under these tactics or lack thereof I'd say, it's a horribly flawed strategy that will get us nowhere.

Yeah because inorder for that strategy to work you gotta draft real well too!

infantrycak
03-25-2011, 12:31 PM
Honestly, I think that if the Texans were offering all these players they would make it known.

I don't recall them being super secretive when bringing in Bodden last year...

Actual visits are one thing. Who they try to talk to or bring in is an entirely different proposition.

Maybe they wouldn't disclose the details of what is being offered, but I really don't see why they would be so secretive about who they are going after...

No maybe about it. The amounts offered by competing teams are almost never reported. Being secretive is pretty much SOP around the league. When was the last time you saw a report that team X called the agent for player Y and he said hell no Y doesn't want to play for you?

You have spun this same excuse on behalf of the Texans management for over three years now and probably longer than that before I got here. It's the same typical excuse over and over like Groundhog Day. This whole "We don't know what they have tried or not tried" is really tiring and actually false, because it's very well known what teams all over the league are doing.

Step away from your Smithiak haterade rants. What I am saying isn't specific to the Texans and I think you are dead wrong that it is well known what teams all over the league are doing. Some information leaks out. A lot of what is reported is just rank speculation like McClain saying Okoye will probably be traded without referencing any Texans' source. I believe all around the league fans end up hearing about 10% or less of the moves/contacts attempted by teams. Disagree if you want but don't try to spin it off to satisfy your desire to turn everything into a comment about Smithiak because my comments had zilch to do with them specifically.

Rey
03-25-2011, 12:38 PM
When was the last time you saw a report that team X called the agent for player Y and he said hell no Y doesn't want to play for you?

Well there was the Eli Manning thing...There are also players who demand trades...

I think that is different though. If an agent were to do that it'd only decrease the asking price for his player...Teams that the player would like to play for would gain a little more leverage.

I don't think that they would come out and lay all their cards on the table...They'd more likely use said team to get a better offer from the team they really want to play for.

dalemurphy
03-25-2011, 12:40 PM
Yeah, for some reason there is still a crew in here that tries to use this same line and excuse every off season for Smithiaknair saying that we don't know what they're doing and we have no idea who they might have talked to and that's just straight bull. I read Rotoworld regularly and they report every single thing imaginable with every NFL team there is. That's their job. The Texans are practically ghosts on those main sites that report stuff. I know who the main teams are that are constantly moving and shaking and trying to improve their teams. It's all over the place if you just study what's going on with the NFL and know where to look.

The fact is that we have probably the worst GM in the league that should have never became a GM and he's just Kubiak's boy. Smith has never shown himself to be a savvy negotiator with other teams. He's very comfortable building through the draft and they've only said that like 100 times over the last 5 years. To keep saying that "we don't know" is just "excuse building" at this point for a regime that still hasn't delivered that some folks still think can deliver, but under these tactics or lack thereof I'd say, it's a horribly flawed strategy that will get us nowhere.


Here's where you are wrong:

1. Rotoworld- Is entirely dependent on other news sources. All it does is collect them. The lack of hits it has on the Texans only indicates sports news coverage, particularly local coverage, is less than other teams. If you've been around for awhile, you know that is the case. We have one person in Houston print media covering the Texans and he only does that when it is convenient.

2. Rick Smith is not the worst GM in the league- that is either ignorant or filled with bias. He certainly got the job, in part at least, because of his relationship with Kubiak. Examples indicating that he's not the worst GM in football: his handling of the Owen Daniels contract negotiations the past two years, the 2009 draft and UDFA (Arian Foster) and the ability to find quality players from the scrap heap (Mike Brisiel, Rashod Butler, Vonta Leach, Chris Myers, Joel Dreessen...) With only one winning season under his belt, it's clear he's been far from the best GM in the NFL. I also share your concern that his lack of real power is a structural problem for the Texans.

You would have us believe that the Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith took over the worst franchise in the NFL and turned that disaster into a mediocre team despite being the worst coach and worst GM in football. So, I guess you think the Texans are very lucky then?

infantrycak
03-25-2011, 12:52 PM
I think that is different though. If an agent were to do that it'd only decrease the asking price for his player...Teams that the player would like to play for would gain a little more leverage.

I don't think that they would come out and lay all their cards on the table...They'd more likely use said team to get a better offer from the team they really want to play for.

This touches on something else I thought about putting in above - agents deal with the teams all the time. They can't afford to piss them off too badly. Plus the GM's talk about who they think has screwed them. Sure agents will strategically leak at times but I think the idea that even a majority of interest/contacts gets reported is just flat out incorrect.

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 12:59 PM
Here's where you are wrong:

1. Rotoworld- Is entirely dependent on other news sources. All it does is collect them. The lack of hits it has on the Texans only indicates sports news coverage, particularly local coverage, is less than other teams. If you've been around for awhile, you know that is the case. We have one person in Houston print media covering the Texans and he only does that when it is convenient.

It's one of the fastest sources to gain information about what takes place around the web on the NFL. Whether it gets it's information from other sources doesn't really matter. No one has 500 football and team sites that they can look at every day, but Rotoworld does and it collects that info and reports it and that's why it's a great news site for football, because it's a one stop shop for information as to what's going on with every team and every player practically if there is any news to report.


2. Rick Smith is not the worst GM in the league- that is either ignorant or filled with bias. He certainly got the job, in part at least, because of his relationship with Kubiak. Examples indicating that he's not the worst GM in football: his handling of the Owen Daniels contract negotiations the past two years, the 2009 draft and UDFA (Arian Foster) and the ability to find quality players from the scrap heap (Mike Brisiel, Rashod Butler, Vonta Leach, Chris Myers, Joel Dreessen...) With only one winning season under his belt, it's clear he's been far from the best GM in the NFL. I also share your concern that his lack of real power is a structural problem for the Texans.

This is by far one of the worst lists you could provide to make an argument for Rick Smith. His drafting skills aren't good at all really, and his signings are the definition of "meh". He doesn't go out there and make any successful trades, he doesn't establish great relationships with the top agents around the league or the other players for that matter. Practically half the decisions and stuff that he gets paid for is stuff that Kubiak has his hands on any way. SMith really doesn't even need to be employeed here with as much emphasis as Gary has. The fact that Smith even draws a salary is laughable.

You would have us believe that the Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith took over the worst franchise in the NFL and turned that disaster into a mediocre team despite being the worst coach and worst GM in football. So, I guess you think the Texans are very lucky then?

Why is it that you still act like that's some sort of success? Lol!!! I've got news for you, it's not. So Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak took over a team that was a bottom feeder. I get it. You've mentioned this over and over for years. But guess what? They've still done nothing since they've gotten here and it's 5 YEARS LATER. I know that you think that winning 6 games is some major improvement, but it wasn't. Teams around the league make 4 game win improvements all of the time. Going from 6-10 to 8-8 wasn't much of an improvement either and I can't believe that anyone thought 9-7 was something to cheer for after two years of 8-8. Smithiak has been the epitome of one step forward-two steps back since they've been here and established themselves as easy pickings around the rest of the NFL even when they have games in the bag. The only successful thing that Smithiak has been able to do here is stay in Mcnair's good graces.

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 01:13 PM
Actual visits are one thing. Who they try to talk to or bring in is an entirely different proposition.



No maybe about it. The amounts offered by competing teams are almost never reported. Being secretive is pretty much SOP around the league. When was the last time you saw a report that team X called the agent for player Y and he said hell no Y doesn't want to play for you?

Those types of reports come out quite frequently.



Step away from your Smithiak haterade rants.

I don't think there is any such thing as a "haterade" rant when we're talking about a duo of HC and GM that have accomplished nothing but fail together. That's speaking on fact and truth. It's not "hating."

What I am saying isn't specific to the Texans and I think you are dead wrong that it is well known what teams all over the league are doing. Some information leaks out.

All you have to do is pay attention around the league and not read about just the Texans dude. When free agents are out there shopping themselves around there are always reports about what teams they've talked to or what teams are interested and making pitches at them. Then when they sign contracts there are more reports about why they didn't sign with this team or that team from either them or the teams themselves. There are also reports about what teams are trying to trade with whom and what they're looking for or who they're trying to shop. This stuff gets reported, and sure every single thing in the world may not be out there to be read and disected on every detail, but the majority of it gets reported if it has any legs to it. I don't know if you just pay attention to just the Texans, but I pay attention to the entire league because I have to it's not hard to see who the main teams are that are constantly making moves. The Texans are hardly ever reported on for doing anything or even trying really.

Every off season you make these same arguments for Smithiak acting like they're being so smart by being conservative and they've got probably a ton of things shaking, but they're just this one organization in the NFL that keeps it as top secret, yet at the end of the off season we don't really do anything and at the end of the season it's proven to have been a fail of a season again where off season moves could have been made to change things.

A lot of what is reported is just rank speculation like McClain saying Okoye will probably be traded without referencing any Texans' source. I believe all around the league fans end up hearing about 10% or less of the moves/contacts attempted by teams. Disagree if you want but don't try to spin it off to satisfy your desire to turn everything into a comment about Smithiak because my comments had zilch to do with them specifically.

I don't have to spin. The lack of moves since SMithiak has been here us pure proof of that. The lack of reports that we're ever doing anything is proof of that. They've said themselves "We like to build through the draft." That's their approach. How many times do they have to say it and only do it that way for you to stop acting like we've got the most secretive team in the league that just knows how to keep the public from knowing any of the secret war plans from Smithiak? I mean come on. We don't have some sort of top notch Skull And Bones society of scouts and minions that work for Rick Smith that know how to negotiate and do under the table deals that are to top secret to get reported ever. Since Smithiak arrived here they've stated that building through the draft is their thing and they've stuck by it.

Rey
03-25-2011, 01:17 PM
I see both sides, but I'm leaning more with Tex on this one...

I just think that if the Texans were active in Free agency we'd have heard more about it. I just can't see them going after all these "phantom players" and not so much as causing a ripple...

infantrycak
03-25-2011, 01:30 PM
I don't think there is any such thing as a "haterade" rant when we're talking about a duo of HC and GM that have accomplished nothing but fail together. That's speaking on fact and truth. It's not "hating."

When you interpret generic comments about the league as the whole as a defense of Smithiak it is haterade.

All you have to do is pay attention around the league and not read about just the Texans dude. When free agents are out there shopping themselves around there are always reports about what teams they've talked to or what teams are interested and making pitches at them.

Yeah, I don't pay attention to anything but the Texans - LOL. You assume there are always reports for every contact. I think that assumption is fallacious. There are signings and trades made all the time for which there was no warning. Lots of times after a signing the most that is said is "other teams" were interested or made offers without identifying the teams.

And if you really watched the league so closely you would know that basically every GM in the league says "we want to build through the draft."

dalemurphy
03-25-2011, 01:40 PM
Why is it that you still act like that's some sort of success? Lol!!! I've got news for you, it's not. So Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak took over a team that was a bottom feeder. I get it. You've mentioned this over and over for years. But guess what? They've still done nothing since they've gotten here and it's 5 YEARS LATER. I know that you think that winning 6 games is some major improvement, but it wasn't. Teams around the league make 4 game win improvements all of the time. Going from 6-10 to 8-8 wasn't much of an improvement either and I can't believe that anyone thought 9-7 was something to cheer for after two years of 8-8. Smithiak has been the epitome of one step forward-two steps back since they've been here and established themselves as easy pickings around the rest of the NFL even when they have games in the bag. The only successful thing that Smithiak has been able to do here is stay in Mcnair's good graces.


According to TEX mathematics:

2-14 + one step forward + two steps back = 6-10. Hard to argue with that. I'm done.

All I am trying to do, is keep the argument in the realm of reality. I thought both of those guys should have been fired this season. If records matter, as you have said they do, then they have been mediocre. I think both of them had ample time to learn and grow in their job and prove their plan successful. But, they were unable to rise above mediocrity. That being said, that is a far cry from the worst in the NFL, which you continue to argue despite any logic whatsoever.

Mr teX
03-25-2011, 03:19 PM
Those types of reports come out quite frequently.





I don't think there is any such thing as a "haterade" rant when we're talking about a duo of HC and GM that have accomplished nothing but fail together. That's speaking on fact and truth. It's not "hating."



All you have to do is pay attention around the league and not read about just the Texans dude. When free agents are out there shopping themselves around there are always reports about what teams they've talked to or what teams are interested and making pitches at them. Then when they sign contracts there are more reports about why they didn't sign with this team or that team from either them or the teams themselves. There are also reports about what teams are trying to trade with whom and what they're looking for or who they're trying to shop. This stuff gets reported, and sure every single thing in the world may not be out there to be read and disected on every detail, but the majority of it gets reported if it has any legs to it. I don't know if you just pay attention to just the Texans, but I pay attention to the entire league because I have to it's not hard to see who the main teams are that are constantly making moves. The Texans are hardly ever reported on for doing anything or even trying really.

Every off season you make these same arguments for Smithiak acting like they're being so smart by being conservative and they've got probably a ton of things shaking, but they're just this one organization in the NFL that keeps it as top secret, yet at the end of the off season we don't really do anything and at the end of the season it's proven to have been a fail of a season again where off season moves could have been made to change things.



I don't have to spin. The lack of moves since SMithiak has been here us pure proof of that. The lack of reports that we're ever doing anything is proof of that. They've said themselves "We like to build through the draft." That's their approach. How many times do they have to say it and only do it that way for you to stop acting like we've got the most secretive team in the league that just knows how to keep the public from knowing any of the secret war plans from Smithiak? I mean come on. We don't have some sort of top notch Skull And Bones society of scouts and minions that work for Rick Smith that know how to negotiate and do under the table deals that are to top secret to get reported ever. Since Smithiak arrived here they've stated that building through the draft is their thing and they've stuck by it.



The lack of moves that the all mighty texecutioner aprove of that is. All the reading of rotoworld in the world still doesn't disprove our point: you don't know what they've tried to do. Just b/c they don't report every potential move they plan to make in FA to satisfy your burden of proof doesn't mean that they haven't inquired. Most of the time, those teams you're raving about that are all over Rotoworld active in FA aren't signing world beaters..they're doing just what the texans are, signing guys that they believe fit their system...or are stealing guys off of other teams' practice squads.

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 03:22 PM
I see both sides, but I'm leaning more with Tex on this one...

I just think that if the Texans were active in Free agency we'd have heard more about it. I just can't see them going after all these "phantom players" and not so much as causing a ripple...

Whenever some of the top names and successful players around the league are free agents or are part of trading deals where they've been unhappy and teams are making their pitches whether it be through free agency and trades it's always top news in the off season and the teams that are really in there trying to sign these guys are always being reported about and it's also typically reported as to why this team or that team dropped out or why that player didn't want to go there or why he chose another team instead. This is the business of sites all over the country that make their living on reporting just that.

GP
03-25-2011, 03:32 PM
We don't have some sort of top notch Skull And Bones society of scouts and minions that work for Rick Smith that know how to negotiate and do under the table deals that are to top secret to get reported ever. Since Smithiak arrived here they've stated that building through the draft is their thing and they've stuck by it.

Adding ammo to your assertions, Tex:

All three guys (Bob, Gary, Rick) have stated openly that we're dedicated to cacthing guys on the way up and NOT going after those guys who are too old and looking for a last payday from the Texans.

Therefore, this limits what we can get in free agency because most teams are going to hold onto their own young, "up and coming" guys.

All of this adds up to the Texans really just going after scrubs that they think they can turn around and "coach up" yet the punchline is that defensive players were not, and cannot, be coached up here. Maybe under Wade they can, but the prior five years? Nope. So not only did the d-coord themselves fail, but the player talent was limited also (building through the draft only, with the exception of Antonio Smith--which is a stretch, IMO).

It really is quite hilarious when we sit here and talk about it.

Double Barrel
03-25-2011, 03:44 PM
McNair: "We're not going to do something we think is crazy"

Okay, Mr. McNair, you're not going to do something crazy. Just know that what you are doing is considered the definition of "insanity" by Albert Einstein (doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results).

:wheel:

Mr teX
03-25-2011, 03:46 PM
Whenever some of the top names and successful players around the league are free agents or are part of trading deals where they've been unhappy and teams are making their pitches whether it be through free agency and trades it's always top news in the off season and the teams that are really in there trying to sign these guys are always being reported about and it's also typically reported as to why this team or that team dropped out or why that player didn't want to go there or why he chose another team instead. This is the business of sites all over the country that make their living on reporting just that.


Scenario: Say Tom Brady right now is a FA & out on the market right now. Obviously, he's 1 of the top Qb's in the league & every team wants him or could use him save for Indy, GB, & i guess you could throw in Pitt, ATL & any team who has drafted & feels they have their franchise qb within the last 2 years (STL, TB etc.) that leaves what, 20 something teams still left that could/should go after him - aggressively.

However, you read on Rotoworld or wherever that the Pats, Ariz, & say SF are the only teams he has visits lined up or have contacted or whatever with him in the near future. Later he goes ahead & resigns with NE. Do you really think that those other teams desperate for a qb like Mia, Sea & say Tenn didn't at least inquire about what it was going to take to get him there?

Mr teX
03-25-2011, 03:52 PM
Adding ammo to your assertions, Tex:

All three guys (Bob, Gary, Rick) have stated openly that we're dedicated to cacthing guys on the way up and NOT going after those guys who are too old and looking for a last payday from the Texans.

Therefore, this limits what we can get in free agency because most teams are going to hold onto their own young, "up and coming" guys.

All of this adds up to the Texans really just going after scrubs that they think they can turn around and "coach up" yet the punchline is that defensive players were not, and cannot, be coached up here. Maybe under Wade they can, but the prior five years? Nope. So not only did the d-coord themselves fail, but the player talent was limited also (building through the draft only, with the exception of Antonio Smith--which is a stretch, IMO).

It really is quite hilarious when we sit here and talk about it.

You're right, but most teams don't let their stars hit FA either...unless these guys have had problems in the past (haynesworth, peppers) and/or these guys have had injury concerns in the past (Brees, Woodson).

GP
03-25-2011, 03:58 PM
You're right, but most teams don't let their stars hit FA either...unless these guys have had problems in the past (haynesworth, peppers) and/or these guys have had injury concerns in the past (Brees, Woodson).

I just think Mcnair has got a mindset and he's painted himself into a corner with it.

It's like a tale of two eras with this guy: In the Casserly era, we gave Todd Wade a sweetheart deal. The Ahman Green deal was the final one, which I think was on Kubiak's watch. The new era is one marked by cautious pussyfooting as it relates to free agents, a sort of low-risk low-reward type thing.

We're going to have to make a move on a defensive player or two in order to compensate for the previous five years of FAIL as it relates to what I perceive as a lack of talent among defensive coaches. That's where McNair needs to let go of his new way of thinking, IMO.

Texecutioner
03-25-2011, 03:59 PM
When you interpret generic comments about the league as the whole as a defense of Smithiak it is haterade.



Yeah, I don't pay attention to anything but the Texans - LOL. You assume there are always reports for every contact. I think that assumption is fallacious. There are signings and trades made all the time for which there was no warning. Lots of times after a signing the most that is said is "other teams" were interested or made offers without identifying the teams.

Spin it however you'd like but 5 years of history of a lack of action speaks for itself. The Texans have been criticized over it for years and the fact that they've continually failed from year to year prove the criticisms to have been warranted and for those who argued on behalf of SMithiak and there lack of actions as being smart and doing things the right way like you're still doing now were wrong. Results speak for themselves and going 6-10 in the 5th year of a regime is indefensible at this point. They've done a bad job at acquiring players to fill holes and to find play makers.

And if you really watched the league so closely you would know that basically every GM in the league says "we want to build through the draft."

Well, gee Cak you're right, how did I not think of that? Every team builds through the draft. Otherwise they wouldn't even be participating in the draft now would they. The Texans are one of the only teams that have a philosophy of building strictly through the draft and you know that's what I meant. That's their MO and that's their style. They won't go out and spend big money to acquire certain players. They'll spend some here and there, but when a big time play maker is out there they never have in their history of 9 seasons. Not once. And please don't say they did with Todd Wade or Weaver again. Neither one of those guys were big time play makers that were highly sought after. Those were guys that didn't have a whole lot of demand on the open market at all and the Texans just decided to throw stupid money at. Of course every team wants to build through the draft, that's why they show up and make a pick every round, but many of the constantly successful teams go out and make trades either for picks or for players to make their team stronger. That's the whole point of what they're supposed to be doing if they're committed to winning. Being anti free agency for the most part and only have one approach for making your team stronger limits your chances and that means you have to draft extremely well with all your picks to where many of them can become effective starters right away and you've got to be great at drafting the right guys and that's a hard task for any GM much less to think some stuges like Smithiak is capable of that every draft.

drs23
03-25-2011, 09:18 PM
What's interesting is that it appears there is a sector of people who think success isn't entirely or exclusively earned, but rather it's in conjunction with good fortune. Luck, good fortune, a series of circumstantial events. Fate.

This explains why some are a little bit more "chill" as it pertains to whether a coach should be fired or not.

I'm not saying that the Rabitt's Foot gang doesn't think Kubiak should have been fired--A lot of them have said that he should have been fired. But I think it explains their willingness to not get their panties in a bunch like the Soapers have over the deal. Too many factors involved, possibly, to say it was this or that (exclusively).

THEORY: Soapers think the end result is a sum total of the efforts of the people in charge of managing, planning, coaching, and playing the game of football. Rabbit Footers think that an element outside the control of man is linked to the end result (in addition to managing, planning, etc.).

This could explain why each side is entrenched against the other so often. On one side, there are those who think you can rise above and conquer any obstacle in your path--It's you vs. the world, find a way to adapt and overcome. On the other side of the aisle, there's a group who indeed values all of those ideals yet also thinks there's a certain ceiling you reach pertaining to the element of "What if Drew Bledsoe was never injured?"

My reasoning dictates that it was inevitable that Brady was going to get a shot. In the NFL, things seem to level themselves out pretty well. The NFL has always held intrugue for me because it's a place where everyone figures out fairly quickly who has the goods and who doesn't--The only squelching of talent seemingly arises either out of injury to the upward-trending athlete (Bo Jackson), trouble with the law (Burress), just flat out leaving the game altogether (Barry Sanders, Glen Coffe, etc.), or an owner and/or coach/GM who falls in love with the starter and doesn't have the good sense to see that the 2nd or 3rd string guy is the better option.

Even in the face of all those things I listed above, the best in the NFL seemingly find a way to rise to the top. One way or another, whether it's in camp, preseason games, injuries, a contract dispute and subsequent trading/releasing of the player, etc....all roads lead to the guy with the best talent getting his shot at some point or another.

To me, this renders the "What if Drew Bledsoe had never been injured" scenarios a bit of a moot point. What if Jimmy Johnson had never become a coach at all, what if he was a tire salesman instead? What if there wasn't an NFL at all? What if, what if, what if, etc. I think there is certainly something to the idea that a good bounce here, or a bad call by a ref there, can impact the end result.

I just think nothing of what I have seen from the Texans has shown me that they have a smidgen of ability to test the top tier of the NFL and truly challenge those teams in a one-on-one gameday situation for a chance at a SB ring. The offense? Maybe. Yet they still are a tricky group to rely upon when you look at 2010's efforts all season long.

I think we're a team that doesn't know how to deal with adversity and unfortunate bounces to the point of taking it by the tail and just throwing it out of the entire stadium. No killer instinct, IMO. No do-or-die persona, IMO. And I think that eminates from the top (McNair) to the middle (Kubiak) to the bottom (Players). There's a sense of "Gosh darn, we're gettin' our stuff together and we'll get there soon! Just hold on, everybody! We're a'comin..."

Grates on some people's nerves.

Gotta say, that's a compelling argument.

(Tommy 11 lines :D)

Texan_Bill
03-25-2011, 11:10 PM
I'm crazy..... Let's do something well thought out and lucid?!??! :runaway:

thunderkyss
03-25-2011, 11:30 PM
How do we know they haven't been winning those bidding wars though? After all, it is the guys they think will help them. To my knowledge, the only guys that we know they lost out on in bidding wars were Orlando Pace (if he was even seriously thinking about coming here) & Bodden; 1 wasn't nearly the player he once was & the other tore up his knee before the season started so...

I don't think we lost the bidding war for Pace, I think he stayed with the Rams, for less money.

Same thing with David Givens. He's a hometown kid, but went to the Titans for less money.

I don't know about Bodden, but I don't think he ever wanted to leave NE.

thunderkyss
03-25-2011, 11:36 PM
Honestly, I think that if the Texans were offering all these players they would make it known.

I don't recall them being super secretive when bringing in Bodden last year...


I believe that was because Bodden wanted to dance.... with NE.

Just like Atogwe went to Washington recently. Smith might have called up Atogwe's agent the moment he was on the market. If his agent says Atogwe has no interest whatsoever, then there is no reason to go further, or publicize anything.

They aren't supposed to do it, but I'm sure agents already know what teams are interested. Atogwe probably knew the Redskins would make an offer, the Colts, the Ravens, Miami, Kansas City, Houston, and Arizona would be making a call. Atogwe could have said, "Take Houston & Arizona off the list." & that would be that.

steelbtexan
03-25-2011, 11:39 PM
What CnD said - we will never know their deeds in all likelihood. And yes there are plenty of "excuses" or reasons for not getting players. You are willing to pay $3 mil and someone else offers $8 mil in stupid money. The player wants the entire contract guaranteed. The player just doesn't like Houston. All of the player's family lives in Florida and Miami makes an offer. It's Innegan and he doesn't want AJ to punk him in practice every day. Whatever. There are lots of things beyond a team's control.

Agreed

And these things seem to happen to BoB,Rick and Gary more often than most teams.

They seem to have the ring of excuses.

Look the Texans are the 10th most profitable sports franchise in the world. If they want to sign somebody they can. There was no salary cap last yr and there may not be one this yr. They chose not to wade off deep into the FA pool last yr and the result when combined with a terrible draft was 6-10. If BoB,Rick and Gary choose to go the same route you can expect 6-10 or worse next yr too.

The Texans have to add 3-4 impact players on defense. Either through the draft/FA or a combination of the 2.

Keeping cap room open for FA's is why I was against resigning OD.

steelbtexan
03-25-2011, 11:49 PM
I believe that was because Bodden wanted to dance.... with NE.

Just like Atogwe went to Washington recently. Smith might have called up Atogwe's agent the moment he was on the market. If his agent says Atogwe has no interest whatsoever, then there is no reason to go further, or publicize anything.

They aren't supposed to do it, but I'm sure agents already know what teams are interested. Atogwe probably knew the Redskins would make an offer, the Colts, the Ravens, Miami, Kansas City, Houston, and Arizona would be making a call. Atogwe could have said, "Take Houston & Arizona off the list." & that would be that.

Possible

Or maybe BoB,Rick and Gary didn't make a call to his agent.

If Rick and Gary cant get players they need to come and play for them. Especially if the Texans offer top $$$$ (which I doubt) they should be fired. After all Atogwe signed with the Redskins they are picking 1 spot ahead of the Texans in the draft. So onviously winning and losing had nothing to do with Atogwe signing with the Redskins. Or not signing with the Texans.

This is just SOS different yr. Spin it BoB spin it.

steelbtexan
03-26-2011, 12:25 AM
Bottom line is most people on this MB think other HC/GM's are available that would be a major upgrade Over Rick and Gary.

BoB doesn't think that way and why should he? He isn't feeling it in his wallet. So what we on this MB think should happen to improve the Texans doesn't mean squat. BoB's attitude has poven this once again this offseason

Texan_Bill
03-26-2011, 12:43 AM
Bottom line is most people on this MB think other HC/GM's are available that would be a major upgrade Over Rick and Gary.

BoB doesn't think that way and why should he? He isn't feeling it in his wallet. So what we on this MB think should happen to improve the Texans doesn't mean squat. BoB's attitude has poven this once again this offseason

Apparently I am most people!!

Someone that isn't as actually enlightened as you, "because, you are so much more enlightened than the rest of us amatuer fans", please fill us in!!

Share with us, your awesome wisdomness.. Share with us, how your awesomeness, would have had, not only brought a new Franchise to the City of Houston, but how YOU would be SOOOOOOO successfull....



I'm OUT!!!

dalemurphy
03-26-2011, 10:30 AM
Agreed

And these things seem to happen to BoB,Rick and Gary more often than most teams.

They seem to have the ring of excuses.

Look the Texans are the 10th most profitable sports franchise in the world. If they want to sign somebody they can. There was no salary cap last yr and there may not be one this yr. They chose not to wade off deep into the FA pool last yr and the result when combined with a terrible draft was 6-10. If BoB,Rick and Gary choose to go the same route you can expect 6-10 or worse next yr too.

The Texans have to add 3-4 impact players on defense. Either through the draft/FA or a combination of the 2.

Keeping cap room open for FA's is why I was against resigning OD.

Steel, a few thoughts:

1. Other than dumping big contracts, using the uncapped year as a means to spend was ill-advised, because NFL contracts almost neccessarily ascend or stay flat each year. There is no effective way to sign a player to a 6 year $50 mil contract that won't count significantly against the cap in years 2, 3, 4, 5, etc... In other words, overspending in 2010 would have a dramatic and negative affect on 2011 and 2012, once the cap was reinstated. Since the owners had determined to take something back in the CBA negotiations, smart teams prepared for the likelihood that the 2011 cap would be smaller than the 2009 cap was.

2. I think they should have been better prepared for the 2010 season, certainly. That being said, it was the weakest FA class ever due to the rule changes stemming from the uncapped season.

3. As we have discussed, I agree they need to be aggressive in FA and I also believe they will this year. If not, consider me part of the "we need major organizational changes" group.

4. I was with you regarding letting OD walk. However, they ended up getting a very good deal for him. So, I'm happy to see him back. OD only costs about $4 million per year against the cap and knocked off about $8 million in cap space letting ADavis, Wilson, Pollard go.

infantrycak
03-26-2011, 10:33 AM
I don't think we lost the bidding war for Pace, I think he stayed with the Rams, for less money.

Same thing with David Givens. He's a hometown kid, but went to the Titans for less money.

I don't know about Bodden, but I don't think he ever wanted to leave NE.

I don't think any of those guys signed for less money. On Pace St. Louis matched the contract offer we made and 90% of the time that means a player stays with the team they are on. Bodden I believe they out bid us plus they had the present team advantage. Don't know on Givens. Do you have something that says he signed for less money? And why are we even talking Givens? Dude never started a full season in his career that ended five years ago.

1. Other than dumping big contracts, using the uncapped year as a means to spend was ill-advised, because NFL contracts almost neccessarily ascend or stay flat each year. There is no effective way to sign a player to a 6 year $50 mil contract that won't count significantly against the cap in years 2, 3, 4, 5, etc... In other words, overspending in 2010 would have a dramatic and negative affect on 2011 and 2012, once the cap was reinstated. Since the owners had determined to take something back in the CBA negotiations, smart teams prepared for the likelihood that the 2011 cap would be smaller than the 2009 cap was.

I agree with you on it being a poor free agent class because of the extended RFA rules. I disagree on the "no effective way" comment. I think the answer there is collusion among the owners to not use an easy loophole with the wink wink understanding it either wouldn't be used or would be closed by a new CBA. Under prior CBA rules there was a giant hole available. Instead of a signing bonus put the guaranteed money in a roster bonus during the uncapped year. Then it doesn't get prorated or applied to a capped year. I think the owners just agreed not to do it.

dalemurphy
03-26-2011, 10:42 AM
I don't think any of those guys signed for less money. On Pace St. Louis matched the contract offer we made and 90% of the time that means a player stays with the team they are on. Bodden I believe they out bid us plus they had the present team advantage. Don't know on Givens. Do you have something that says he signed for less money? And why are we even talking Givens? Dude never started a full season in his career that ended five years ago.

Pace, by the way, is a great example of why it is smart to be cautious. He would have cost us a significant cap #, multiple high round picks (essentially costing us Mario and probably M. Schaub, when you think about it). Then, by 2008, when the rest of the team was improving towards respectability, he would be physically broken down and worthless.

dalemurphy
03-26-2011, 10:46 AM
I agree with you on it being a poor free agent class because of the extended RFA rules. I disagree on the "no effective way" comment. I think the answer there is collusion among the owners to not use an easy loophole with the wink wink understanding it either wouldn't be used or would be closed by a new CBA. Under prior CBA rules there was a giant hole available. Instead of a signing bonus put the guaranteed money in a roster bonus during the uncapped year. Then it doesn't get prorated or applied to a capped year. I think the owners just agreed not to do it.

I thought about mentioning this issue: While that can be done, it becomes a major problem handling the player midway through his contract. If the contract is too frontloaded, the agent and/or player will begin crying about being underpaid as they start seeing that his salary is nowhere near the salaries of other players at his position. (believe me, I understand the counter argument but it doesn't change the fact that those deals become real headaches and teams shy away from them as a result)

infantrycak
03-26-2011, 11:01 AM
I thought about mentioning this issue: While that can be done, it becomes a major problem handling the player midway through his contract. If the contract is too frontloaded, the agent and/or player will begin crying about being underpaid as they start seeing that his salary is nowhere near the salaries of other players at his position. (believe me, I understand the counter argument but it doesn't change the fact that those deals become real headaches and teams shy away from them as a result)

I think the reason teams shy away from them normally are the cap ramifications and that they don't get to prorate the roster bonus. The salaries work out the same regardless of whether you call it a roster bonus or signing bonus and the player walks away from the signing with the same bank account regardless of the name. But most teams aren't walking around with a spare $15 mil in cap space. The contrary example is when the Vikings signed Antoine Winfield. They had $10+ mil in extra cap space from credits for likely to be earned bonus carry over so they paid all his guaranteed money as a roster bonus. Last year the cap wasn't a consideration but these roster bonus deals still didn't happen. I think that spells collusion by the teams.

steelbtexan
03-26-2011, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE=Texan_Bill;1671284]Apparently I am most people!!

Someone that isn't as actually enlightened as you, "because, you are so much more enlightened than the rest of us amatuer fans", please fill us in!!

Share with us, your awesome wisdomness.. Share with us, how your awesomeness, would have had, not only brought a new Franchise to the City of Houston, but how YOU would be SOOOOOOO successfull....

I've got no wisdom

I'm not trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

I just pointed out that BoB could hire better people if the wanted too. He doesn't want too. So that is just an example of him not putting winning as his #1 priority.

The BoB brought football back to Houston thing is tired and old. He brought losing football back to Houston. If that's good enough for you then that's where we differ. I'm all about putting a winning team on the field and would rather not have a team. Than have a losing team.

When I called for Gary to be fired after the 2009 season you said lets see how the 2010 season play out. We all know how that turned out. Yet Gary still has a job and fans will be treated to atleast 2-3 seasons of ineptitude.

Using the enlightened and you're the best amatuer fan card is cheap. Look it's not my fault you're boy Gary stinks at his job and BoB for whatever reason wont cut him loose. Thereby wasting 2/3 more seasons.

I'm glad you're happy to just have a fooball team in Houston. If I could get to that place maybe I would be more accepting of the loser organization BoB has brought to this team.

Resond to the post not the poster. The previous post stated nothing but fact and you try to divert attention from the post by attacking me.Oldest trick in the book. You should've been a lawyer. LOL

steelbtexan
03-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Steel, a few thoughts:

1. Other than dumping big contracts, using the uncapped year as a means to spend was ill-advised, because NFL contracts almost neccessarily ascend or stay flat each year. There is no effective way to sign a player to a 6 year $50 mil contract that won't count significantly against the cap in years 2, 3, 4, 5, etc... In other words, overspending in 2010 would have a dramatic and negative affect on 2011 and 2012, once the cap was reinstated. Since the owners had determined to take something back in the CBA negotiations, smart teams prepared for the likelihood that the 2011 cap would be smaller than the 2009 cap was.

2. I think they should have been better prepared for the 2010 season, certainly. That being said, it was the weakest FA class ever due to the rule changes stemming from the uncapped season.

3. As we have discussed, I agree they need to be aggressive in FA and I also believe they will this year. If not, consider me part of the "we need major organizational changes" group.

4. I was with you regarding letting OD walk. However, they ended up getting a very good deal for him. So, I'm happy to see him back. OD only costs about $4 million per year against the cap and knocked off about $8 million in cap space letting ADavis, Wilson, Pollard go.


You could've front loaded the contract so there wouldn't have been cap problems in the 2011 season. but you're right about 2010 being a crappy FA class. We are in agreement with the rest of the post.

The reason that the 2010 FA class was so poor that owners prepared for the uncapped yr. Some mght say it was a form of colusion

dalemurphy
03-26-2011, 01:20 PM
You could've front loaded the contract so there wouldn't have been cap problems in the 2011 season. but you're right about 2010 being a crappy FA class. We are in agreement with the rest of the post.

The reason that the 2011 FA class was so poor that owners prepared for the uncapped yr. Some mght say it was a form of colusion


I think you mean 2010. Not only was there collusion but McNair was in on it. McNair had made statements heading into the 2010 season that pretty well indicated he was going to make financial decisions with the CBA negotiations in mind, whether what the owners did fits the legal definition of collusion, I can not say... but, certainly, there was a coordinated effort of which McNair was a part of.

The 2011 FA class is the best one in many years. Given the fact they haven't been aggressive in FA in '08, '09, or '10 and given the results of '10, if they are unaggressive this eason in FA, I will agree with 90% of what anyone has said of Bob McNair.

steelbtexan
03-26-2011, 01:28 PM
I think you mean 2010. Not only was there collusion but McNair was in on it. McNair had made statements heading into the 2010 season that pretty well indicated he was going to make financial decisions with the CBA negotiations in mind, whether what the owners did fits the legal definition of collusion, I can not say... but, certainly, there was a coordinated effort of which McNair was a part of.

The 2011 FA class is the best one in many years. Given the fact they haven't been aggressive in FA in '08, '09, or '10 and given the results of '10, if they are unaggressive this eason in FA, I will agree with 90% of what anyone has said of Bob McNair.

Fixed

The Texans being agressive would be out of the morm.

You have many more inside sources than most.

I hope your sources are right.

dalemurphy
03-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Fixed

The Texans being agressive would be out of the morm.

You have many more inside sources than most.

I hope your sources are right.

If you mean by "inside sources"- hope... then, yes, I do. I only have one source that has told me to expect a busy FA period and there is about 3 degrees of separation between him and McNair/Smith.

ThaShark316
03-26-2011, 07:33 PM
As you people can see (yes, I said "you people") this is the different between Bob McNair saying this and, let's say, Robert kraft saying it.

Kraft says it = yeah, let's not get some bum!

McNair = OMG!! he's terrible! stfu!

You don't want to pull an Oakland and get another Terdell Sands. You want to get yourself that guy YOU KNOW makes you better. Not some marginal guy that can't help you.

We can be the Bucs from the early-to-mid 90s and get another Alvin Harper-type free agent. (wasn't that good, but paid him big money anyway)

I understand you clowns are starving for a winner...hell me too...but the fact that this is a 10 page thread shows where we are as a fan base.

GP
03-26-2011, 08:27 PM
As you people can see (yes, I said "you people") this is the different between Bob McNair saying this and, let's say, Robert kraft saying it.

Kraft says it = yeah, let's not get some bum!

McNair = OMG!! he's terrible! stfu!

You don't want to pull an Oakland and get another Terdell Sands. You want to get yourself that guy YOU KNOW makes you better. Not some marginal guy that can't help you.

We can be the Bucs from the early-to-mid 90s and get another Alvin Harper-type free agent. (wasn't that good, but paid him big money anyway)

I understand you clowns are starving for a winner...hell me too...but the fact that this is a 10 page thread shows where we are as a fan base.

Aren't you the one who (several months ago) was ragging out fans and saying how we essentially affect the team with whether we root for it or not?

This post seems eerily similar...for example:

but the fact that this is a 10 page thread shows where we are as a fan base.


What on God's green earth does that statement mean? I just don't even desire to take the time and sit here and try to come up with theories and have you reply to each one.

All I can figure is that you're unable to state a simple position and let it stand by itself, you'd rather throw in some caustic remarks to troll and get a flame war started.

I understand you clowns are starving for a winner

What's clown'ish about wanting a winner? Do we amuse you? Like a clown? I amuse you. You think I'm funny? :goodfellas:

Wolf
03-27-2011, 12:35 PM
this sums up my thoughts on the Texan's organization

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yMH-RXbyoD8/TK0NyfHfA_I/AAAAAAAAFlY/Tx87Ef_nhuc/s1600/turtle_snail.jpg

wildroot
03-27-2011, 12:39 PM
The Texans being the 10th most profitable franchise in the world doesen't do squat for me. It fattens Bob's wallet but it dosen't translate to a successful franchise on the FIELD. Maybe let's settle on being in the top 20 or 25 and spend some of that money on building up this team.

Apparently we have one of the highest payrolls too...why? Take out Schaub, AJ, Mario....why are we paying the other players so much money? Take a team like Indy, they have 10 or 12 high-profile players and their payroll is less?!? We're simply overpaying the player we have in relation to their talent, and this team was put together by Smith and Kubiak. Poor job.

GP
03-27-2011, 01:04 PM
this sums up my thoughts on the Texan's organization

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yMH-RXbyoD8/TK0NyfHfA_I/AAAAAAAAFlY/Tx87Ef_nhuc/s1600/turtle_snail.jpg

I was thinking more along the lines of a glacier moving past the turtle.

steelbtexan
03-27-2011, 01:07 PM
BoB, We're not going to do anything crazy:

Like doing everything possible to put a winning team on the field.

Yeah that's crazy alright. LOL

buddyboy
03-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Aren't you the one who (several months ago) was ragging out fans and saying how we essentially affect the team with whether we root for it or not?

This post seems eerily similar...for example:



What on God's green earth does that statement mean? I just don't even desire to take the time and sit here and try to come up with theories and have you reply to each one.

All I can figure is that you're unable to state a simple position and let it stand by itself, you'd rather throw in some caustic remarks to troll and get a flame war started.



What's clown'ish about wanting a winner? Do we amuse you? Like a clown? I amuse you. You think I'm funny? :goodfellas:

I don't know if I agree with all his points, but I agree that having over 10 pages on this is silly.

A sports owner (all of which usually say nonsensical things that you can't take seriously anyway) comes out and says, "we're not going to do anything crazy." We're not going to go out and be the Raiders. We're not going to go outbid ourselves since we're so gung ho on getting that one player. We're not going to paint ourselves into a corner by being overly desperate in our offseason.

Sounds to me either a) we should just take it as any other cliche statement made by the sports community, or b) be glad that the organization isn't losing their heads.

I understand the frustration with the FO. But the statement itself is something to rejoice about. If you have questions about whether the FO can deliver, that's another thing entirely, but for me, the statement that the Texans aren't going to do something crazy is a relief.

steelbtexan
03-27-2011, 02:03 PM
A decade of losing = it's time to do something crazy.

What BoB's been doing hasn't been working and will not work in the future.

gary
03-27-2011, 02:03 PM
I will just wait and see because words are not the same as actions.

steelbtexan
03-27-2011, 02:13 PM
I will just wait and see because words are not the same as actions.

True

Repped

gary
03-27-2011, 02:30 PM
True

ReppedIf they are not going to over spend then fine but all I ask for is that they at least try to do something. Make a call or an offer or just come out and say we did this or that.

steelbtexan
03-27-2011, 02:42 PM
The Texans seem to hide their ineptitude with a CIA level of secrecy.

CloakNNNdagger
03-27-2011, 03:26 PM
The Texans seem to hide their ineptitude with a CIA level of secrecy.



Bob: Hello, this is Bob McNair.

FA: Who?

Bob: Bob McNair. The owner of the Houston Texans.

FA: The Houston what?

Bob: Texans. Houston Texans.

FA: Oh. What is this call about?

Bob: Just inquiring about free agency stuff.

FA: What about it?

Bob: You don't really have interest in coming to Houston, do you?

FA: Not really.......unless the money is good.

Bob: I didn't think so. Thank you.

gary
03-27-2011, 03:29 PM
Bob: Hello, this is Bob McNair.

FA: Who?

Bob: Bob McNair. The owner of the Houston Texans.

FA: The Houston what?

Bob: Texans. Houston Texans.

FA: Oh. What is this call about?

Bob: Just inquiring about free agency stuff.

FA: What about it?

Bob: You don't really have interest in coming to Houston, do you?

FA: Not really.......unless the money is good.

Bob: I didn't think so. Thank you.
Repped for a good laugh.

steelbtexan
03-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Bob: Hello, this is Bob McNair.

FA: Who?

Bob: Bob McNair. The owner of the Houston Texans.

FA: The Houston what?

Bob: Texans. Houston Texans.

FA: Oh. What is this call about?

Bob: Just inquiring about free agency stuff.

FA: What about it?

Bob: You don't really have interest in coming to Houston, do you?

FA: Not really.......unless the money is good.

Bob: I didn't think so. Thank you.

I've got a feeling this is how it goes for the Texans in FA. Except Rick carries BoB's water.

Ricks just happy to have a GM job. He's not going to tell BoB if you want win you're going to have to pay to get a FA like Peppers. Rick and Gary are yes men. As the last 5 yrs have proven out. BoB's koolaid salesmen still cant get around the fact that the Texans on the field product has = fail for almost been a decade and counting.

BoB is still learning on the job after a decade = LOL. But, But, But.... BoB is one of the leaders of the owners locking out the players. Yeah that should tell you where BoB's heart is.

Lucky
03-27-2011, 04:34 PM
I understand you clowns are starving for a winner...hell me too...but the fact that this is a 10 page thread shows where we are as a fan base.
That this thread exists at all shows where the Texans are as an organization.

Sincerely,
Lucky the Clown :clown:
this sums up my thoughts on the Texan's organization

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yMH-RXbyoD8/TK0NyfHfA_I/AAAAAAAAFlY/Tx87Ef_nhuc/s1600/turtle_snail.jpg
At least the snail is on the right track.

Second Honeymoon
03-27-2011, 08:27 PM
As you people can see (yes, I said "you people") this is the different between Bob McNair saying this and, let's say, Robert kraft saying it.

Kraft says it = yeah, let's not get some bum!

McNair = OMG!! he's terrible! stfu!

You don't want to pull an Oakland and get another Terdell Sands. You want to get yourself that guy YOU KNOW makes you better. Not some marginal guy that can't help you.

We can be the Bucs from the early-to-mid 90s and get another Alvin Harper-type free agent. (wasn't that good, but paid him big money anyway)

I understand you clowns are starving for a winner...hell me too...but the fact that this is a 10 page thread shows where we are as a fan base.

where we are as a fanbase? you know where we are as a fanbase. a decade of failures is where we are at. even the glorious parade-filled 9-7 season was a failure.

there is no problem with the fanbase. the problem is with the owner, the GM, and the head coach. they are all pathetic excuses for a front office...especially Rick and Gary. Bob doesn't know any better, he is just another billionaire who is clueless on what it takes to win. Even his horses suck. he is a LOSER.

But Rick and Gary are supposed to know how to run a team. They have and will continue to fail until they are FINALLY run out of town. Then we will have a few more years of Wade Phillips and then MAYBE Bob will just stfu and start turning business to competent people...not just Denver cronies of Kubiak and Rick Smith.

And if you still believe in these guys to turn things around...you are a glutton for punishment. These guys are flatlining failures and will never do squat in this league. Trust me on this, once Gary is fired and Rick is fired, they will not get another sniff. Gary would be a fine OC but is a joke of a HC and Rick Smith has been a failure just about universally. Just a clueless little guy who sits on Bob's lap and tells him what he wants to hear so he can stay gainfully employed.

Keep on dreaming, fans...but don't try and say the fanbase is the problem. That is sad and pathetic..almost as sad and pathetic as this franchise is.

Texans are a joke.

Texan_Bill
03-27-2011, 09:50 PM
:facepalm: Second Honeymoon, errrrr Woodlands Doug :rolleyes:!!

dalemurphy
03-27-2011, 09:52 PM
where we are as a fanbase? you know where we are as a fanbase. a decade of failures is where we are at. even the glorious parade-filled 9-7 season was a failure.

there is no problem with the fanbase. the problem is with the owner, the GM, and the head coach. they are all pathetic excuses for a front office...especially Rick and Gary. Bob doesn't know any better, he is just another billionaire who is clueless on what it takes to win. Even his horses suck. he is a LOSER.

But Rick and Gary are supposed to know how to run a team. They have and will continue to fail until they are FINALLY run out of town. Then we will have a few more years of Wade Phillips and then MAYBE Bob will just stfu and start turning business to competent people...not just Denver cronies of Kubiak and Rick Smith.

And if you still believe in these guys to turn things around...you are a glutton for punishment. These guys are flatlining failures and will never do squat in this league. Trust me on this, once Gary is fired and Rick is fired, they will not get another sniff. Gary would be a fine OC but is a joke of a HC and Rick Smith has been a failure just about universally. Just a clueless little guy who sits on Bob's lap and tells him what he wants to hear so he can stay gainfully employed.

Keep on dreaming, fans...but don't try and say the fanbase is the problem. That is sad and pathetic..almost as sad and pathetic as this franchise is.

Texans are a joke.


I read a post like this and I genuinely do not understand why you are a Texans fan. I don't mean this in any sort of confrontational way. It just doesn't make sense to me. If you despise the owner, the GM, and the coach to this degree, why are you following them as closely as you do? It's March and you are choosing to go talk and read about this organization that you despise. It's not as if you grew up a fan of this organization, so it can't be about loyalty. I really don't get it. If, after all, you participate in fandom for entertainment purposes, I'm missing the hook for you.

I understand being frustrated with a team. I was outraged in 2005 and often booed the performance on the field. I was wholly disappointed and frustrated with much of last season. However, if you can't enjoy significant parts of the '07, '08, and '9 seasons and have no hope that anything will get better, what are you doing?

Texan_Bill
03-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Texans are a joke.

Than quit being a "supposed" fan... What are you, a Colts fan??? :lol:

Carr Bombed
03-27-2011, 10:07 PM
:firehair:

GP
03-27-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't know if I agree with all his points, but I agree that having over 10 pages on this is silly.

A sports owner (all of which usually say nonsensical things that you can't take seriously anyway) comes out and says, "we're not going to do anything crazy." We're not going to go out and be the Raiders. We're not going to go outbid ourselves since we're so gung ho on getting that one player. We're not going to paint ourselves into a corner by being overly desperate in our offseason.

Sounds to me either a) we should just take it as any other cliche statement made by the sports community, or b) be glad that the organization isn't losing their heads.

I understand the frustration with the FO. But the statement itself is something to rejoice about. If you have questions about whether the FO can deliver, that's another thing entirely, but for me, the statement that the Texans aren't going to do something crazy is a relief.

For me, "We're on the right track" and then "We're not going to do anything crazy" = Grab your ankles because it'll be more of what you're already used to. More of the same. Nothing dynamic.

Which is more "silly," btw: (A) A thread that's 10 pages long, or (B) A fellow message board fan calling other fans clowns and projecting this team's failures upon the condition of the so-called fan base?

thunderkyss
03-27-2011, 11:25 PM
Bob: Hello, this is Bob McNair.

FA: Who?

Bob: Bob McNair. The owner of the Houston Texans.

FA: The Houston what?

Bob: Texans. Houston Texans.

FA: Oh. What is this call about?

Bob: Just inquiring about free agency stuff.

FA: What about it?

Bob: You don't really have interest in coming to Houston, do you?

FA: Not really.......unless the money is good.

Bob: I didn't think so. Thank you.

I thought we all agreed money wasn't an issue for the top-tier free agents. Regardless what team they go to, they're going to get their money. Other than money, there are reasons that big name FAs end up in Miami, Pittsburgh, Greenbay, Indianapolis, & Kansas City.

Lucky
03-27-2011, 11:33 PM
I read a post like this and I genuinely do not understand why you are a Texans fan.
We've discussed this before, but we don't have to understand what makes another a fan. That's really not relevant.

Not that I have to explain, but a big reason I am a Texan fan is because of the name in front. I have an affinity for anything that says "Houston". Probably because I am a Houstonian. That doesn't mean I have to like the job that Bob McNair, Gary Kubiak, and Rick Smith are doing. The Texans are bigger than them. They have to be for me to be a fan. When 2ndHM says "the Texans suck", I'm pretty sure he's referring to the job being done by the people at the top. And after 9 years, how can you really argue against his point?

dalemurphy
03-28-2011, 12:00 AM
We've discussed this before, but we don't have to understand what makes another a fan. That's really not relevant.

Not that I have to explain, but a big reason I am a Texan fan is because of the name in front. I have an affinity for anything that says "Houston". Probably because I am a Houstonian. That doesn't mean I have to like the job that Bob McNair, Gary Kubiak, and Rick Smith are doing. The Texans are bigger than them. They have to be for me to be a fan. When 2ndHM says "the Texans suck", I'm pretty sure he's referring to the job being done by the people at the top. And after 9 years, how can you really argue against his point?

I get frustration and disappointment. What SH was communicating is disdain. I do not understand supporting things that one hates. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying that he is objectively wrong to continue rooting for the Texans. I'm simply attempting to understand the appeal. To hold the owner/founder, along with his decision-makers, in such ill-regard and yet still spend significant time/money/care "rooting" for them simply defies logic. So, my question would be "how horrible a person would the owner/founder have to be in your estimation before you would cease consuming his product?". If I felt anywhere near the way that SH does about McNair I would be repelled from supporting his interests.

Maybe I'm odd, but if I were to make a list of things that I spend my free time and entertainment dollars on, the list will include only those things I enjoy. For instance, I don't ask my dentist for a root canal simply because I have $800 to spend and two hours of free time, nor because I'm wanting to support local businesses. That's crazy, right?

dalemurphy
03-28-2011, 12:22 AM
We've discussed this before, but we don't have to understand what makes another a fan. That's really not relevant.

Not that I have to explain, but a big reason I am a Texan fan is because of the name in front. I have an affinity for anything that says "Houston". Probably because I am a Houstonian. That doesn't mean I have to like the job that Bob McNair, Gary Kubiak, and Rick Smith are doing. The Texans are bigger than them. They have to be for me to be a fan. When 2ndHM says "the Texans suck", I'm pretty sure he's referring to the job being done by the people at the top. And after 9 years, how can you really argue against his point?


Considering Bob McNair is both owner and founder, I'm not sure how that is true. It is not as if, as a kid, you grew up rooting for the team and inherited them as an adult. There is no tradition with the Texans for most of us. We chose, using free will, to root for McNair's creation. The only reason Houston's name is attached is because Houston was the market McNair elected to target. If it is unsatisfying and hopeless, why not unchoose?

Let's be intellectually honest. Make a choice. Either be the victim or don't be. A victim has no power to make decisions to avoid his fate. Someone that hates Bob McNair, is miserable rooting for the Texans but continues to do so is a victim. These same victims, at the same time, also try and come accross as the enlightened elite: educating the ignorant masses on how they are being mistreated. I find that ironic. How enlighteded can one be if they choose to believe they are powerless to create change or break from the status quo, consciously continuing to suffer?

In the end, I think it is little more than temper tantrums and the hyperbolic hateful and hopeless speech is merely an adolescent coping mechanism. It's almost April... shouldn't it be time to move on? The season ended almost three months ago (four months ago for Texan playoff aspirations).

Lucky
03-28-2011, 07:04 AM
Considering Bob McNair is both owner and founder, I'm not sure how that is true.
I'm sorry you don't get that, but our motivations aren't up for debate or your scrutiny. The issue here is the job being done by the Texans organization, by Bob McNair. In regards to building a winning team, they suck. Now, you can believe otherwise if you must. But the facts speak for themselves.

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm sorry you don't get that, but our motivations aren't up for debate or your scrutiny. The issue here is the job being done by the Texans organization, by Bob McNair. In regards to building a winning team, they suck. Now, you can believe otherwise if you must. But the facts speak for themselves.

No the facts don't..if they did, this thread would be reduced to half of what it is...

CloakNNNdagger
03-28-2011, 09:27 AM
The problem is NOT the facts. The problem is the INTERPRETATION of the facts, which can be bastardized.

Two facts are indisputable.

Fact One: This franchise has accumulated elite financial status in the sports world (let alone the NFL).
Fact Two: Our win-loss record remains pathetic.

However, be assured that ways will continue to be found to somehow even bastardize these two simple facts.

GP
03-28-2011, 09:41 AM
No the facts don't..if they did, this thread would be reduced to half of what it is...

Trolling.

Second Honeymoon
03-28-2011, 09:42 AM
I get frustration and disappointment. What SH was communicating is disdain. I do not understand supporting things that one hates. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying that he is objectively wrong to continue rooting for the Texans. I'm simply attempting to understand the appeal. To hold the owner/founder, along with his decision-makers, in such ill-regard and yet still spend significant time/money/care "rooting" for them simply defies logic. So, my question would be "how horrible a person would the owner/founder have to be in your estimation before you would cease consuming his product?". If I felt anywhere near the way that SH does about McNair I would be repelled from supporting his interests.

Maybe I'm odd, but if I were to make a list of things that I spend my free time and entertainment dollars on, the list will include only those things I enjoy. For instance, I don't ask my dentist for a root canal simply because I have $800 to spend and two hours of free time, nor because I'm wanting to support local businesses. That's crazy, right?

last year, I stopped spending my money on them even after a 9-7 year. that just shows that I expect more than what they have given us as a fanbase. i love the idea of having a Houston football team but there is no way I am going to be happy with the product they have delivered. no way at all.

when the texans were 5-7 for the 3rd year in a row, i stopped being a customer. when the texans were 5-7 for the 4th year in a row, i stopped believing that things will ever turn around with current leadership...and I still have no belief in them. my venting is the venting of a fan but the venting of a fan who has given up on this current collection of clowns.

that doesn't mean I don't think things can change eventually. it just means that it will probably be another 4 years at best before we get a chance at a HC who can actually do something with this franchise. Gary has another 2 years almost for sure, irregardless of outcome, and then Wade will get a few years to prove once again, that he is not a championship HC either. At least he is a decent HC though...unlike Gary who sucks bigtime. The dude couldnt even tell the difference between 1/2 yard and a 1 1/2 yards in a crucial end of game situation. Inexcusable and just part and parcel of the utter incompetence displayed by this franchise year after year.

I know my Texans and that is why I am so unhappy. They don't have a prayer this year unless they make some huge upgrades at at least 2 of the 3 critical needs (DT, CB, FS).

As for why I am a fan. Well its because I try and support my hometown teams. The only hometown team I don't support is the Astros and I was a fan until they got moved into the Cardinals division. I have family ties to the Cardinals and have been a fan since birth. Back in the day, I could be a fan of both when they were in different divisions. I was an Astros Buddy. I went to Terry Puhl's hitting clinic. Went to church with Craig Reynolds. But the Cards got moved in Selig's infinite wisdom and gave us 6 teams in our divsion. Something that still pisses me off to no end. I did support the Astros when they made the World Series though...a lot of good that did me :) Dynamo, Rockets, Texans, Houston Hurricanes (RIP), and even the Aeros.

If some of you fans want to keep letting McNair crap in your mouth and call it a sundae, that is fine. Just don't get angry or perplexed if I tell the guy, "I have had enough of that flavor, thank you."

I love the Texans but its pretty obvious that they suck and probably aren't going to get better anytime soon. At least not with this collection of losers running things.

Second Honeymoon
03-28-2011, 09:44 AM
Considering Bob McNair is both owner and founder, I'm not sure how that is true. It is not as if, as a kid, you grew up rooting for the team and inherited them as an adult. There is no tradition with the Texans for most of us. We chose, using free will, to root for McNair's creation. The only reason Houston's name is attached is because Houston was the market McNair elected to target. If it is unsatisfying and hopeless, why not unchoose?

Let's be intellectually honest. Make a choice. Either be the victim or don't be. A victim has no power to make decisions to avoid his fate. Someone that hates Bob McNair, is miserable rooting for the Texans but continues to do so is a victim. These same victims, at the same time, also try and come accross as the enlightened elite: educating the ignorant masses on how they are being mistreated. I find that ironic. How enlighteded can one be if they choose to believe they are powerless to create change or break from the status quo, consciously continuing to suffer?

In the end, I think it is little more than temper tantrums and the hyperbolic hateful and hopeless speech is merely an adolescent coping mechanism. It's almost April... shouldn't it be time to move on? The season ended almost three months ago (four months ago for Texan playoff aspirations).

adolescent coping mechanism? thanks freud. I am glad you can sum my fandom up in such a condecending manner. much appreciated.

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 09:47 AM
The problem is NOT the facts. The problem is the INTERPRETATION of the facts, which can be bastardized.

Two facts are indisputable.

Fact One: This franchise has accumulated elite financial status in the sports world (let alone the NFL).
Fact Two: Our win-loss record remains pathetic.

However, be assured that ways will continue to be found to somehow even bastardize these two simple facts.


Or the fact that the Texans have indeed spent plenty of money or at least league avg. in FA over the years as has been pointed out by several of us......


Or the fact that 31 out of 32 teams enjoy "elite" financial status b/c the NFL as a business is making money hand over fist...



Or the fact that just maybe there are other reasons besides money that big time FA's don't sign here......


on & on & on....

Second Honeymoon
03-28-2011, 10:02 AM
Many FAs don't consider us because we have shown no commitment to winning

GP
03-28-2011, 10:11 AM
Many FAs don't consider us because we have shown no commitment to winning

Bingo.

I keep saying it over and over: Players might come off as if ALL they care about is money and they'd go wherever paid them the most. But I'd wager most players want money AND success.

It's inherent to the mentality of an athlete: I want to get paid, AND I want to win a championship...so that I can say that at one time I was among the best and came out on top.

Which makes Andre Johnson an even classier person that he would subject himself to this situation, and keep coming back for more. Barry Sanders, on the other hand, resorted to just quitting the game altogether and saying "To heck with it, I'm out. I can't win."

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 10:15 AM
Many FAs don't consider us because we have shown no commitment to winning

LoL. alright coach 2nd honeymoon...i'm Nmandi Asomaugha, How do you show me that you're "committed to winning" or "excellence" or whatever lockerroom slogan you want to use? Prove to me you're just not another Al Davis or Dan Snyder throwing money around & have no idea how to build a winning team.

Second Honeymoon
03-28-2011, 10:24 AM
Exactly, GP. In this league, you can get paid AND win. Why do you think AJ was unhappy last year? Because he had given the Texans a good deal and the Texans haven't done enough to help him have a chance at winning much less championship. He knew he can get success and a sweet deal elsewhere. Ultimately, he fell in line as he was under contract, then given anew deal to appease for all the losing and failures. But if they replicate 2010 in 2011, Andre needs to go elsewhere. That should never happen. He should be given a chance to win here in Houston.

Won't happen till Smithiak are sent packing. It's long overdue.

GP
03-28-2011, 10:25 AM
LoL. alright coach 2nd honeymoon...i'm Nmandi Asomaugha, How do you show me that you're "committed to winning" or "excellence" or whatever lockerroom slogan you want to use? Prove to me you're just not another Al Davis or Dan Snyder throwing money around & have no idea how to build a team.

You can't show him. That's just the point that's being made.

Players don't need an inspirational "sales pitch." And I doubt they look at Bob's fantastic facilities, in contrast to what Bob has said would be a major reason for a FA coming here, and go "Gee, THIS is where I want to be."

Players and agents are looking for (A) best monetary value a franchise can give, in comparison to other franchise offers to the player, and (B) What's the overall chance at success once the player gets there?

Arian Foster was undrafted and just looking for a way into the NFL...so he admits that he and his girlfriend scouted the depth charts of the teams that were expressing interest in him after the draft. He calculated that Houston had the best chance for him to become the starter, oh AND they paid him something like twice the amount he was offered by the Saints (IIRC).

Money & Opportunity. For a guy like Foster, he just needed a way into the NFL (but he also considered the contract dollars). For an established free agent who is respectable and Pro Bowl caliber? It gets a lot more complicated than just "throwing money at him." They don't want to be miserable, especially if they are coming out of a miserable situation (such as leaving the Raiders after all those years). I guarantee you that Andre Johnson wouldn't leave the Texans for a lateral move. He'd be headed to a team that he felt could get him to a title AND pay him too.

This really is silly, as you said, but for different reasons than you theorized earlier.

Getting Aso in free agency would be like hitting the lottery; it would be phenomenal JUST based on (A) Him even considering coming to a struggling team like the one he had just left behind, and (B) Bob McNair paying him a fair and relatively adequate salary for what his skills can demand in the open market. As it stands, it would be breaking the natural law of NFL physics for Aso to be on this team once free agency is open for business. And I'm not trying to be a doom and gloomer here...I'm just saying that reality is a cold, hard you-know-what.

Second Honeymoon
03-28-2011, 10:37 AM
LoL. alright coach 2nd honeymoon...i'm Nmandi Asomaugha, How do you show me that you're "committed to winning" or "excellence" or whatever lockerroom slogan you want to use? Prove to me you're just not another Al Davis or Dan Snyder throwing money around & have no idea how to build a winning team.

Al Davis throwing money around? Oh and Al Davis has built many teams over the years. Yeah, dude is old and has done some senile stuff lately but he has put together some great teams over the years. I wouldn't lump him in with Snyder. Al Davis knows football but his mental state is in question. Ill give him a pass.

Look at Bud's mishandling of fisher young situation. He is getting senile too. Old school AFL Guys are getting old. Even Bowlen, assuredly partially due to failing health, has had a hard time as owner lately. He used to be known as a model NFL owner.

McNair needs to change the carebear culture and the move for Wade only reinforces that culture. Hopefully I am wrong about that.

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 10:51 AM
You can't show him. That's just the point that's being made.

Players don't need an inspirational "sales pitch." And I doubt they look at Bob's fantastic facilities, in contrast to what Bob has said would be a major reason for a FA coming here, and go "Gee, THIS is where I want to be."

Players and agents are looking for (A) best monetary value a franchise can give, in comparison to other franchise offers to the player, and (B) What's the overall chance at success once the player gets there?

Arian Foster was undrafted and just looking for a way into the NFL...so he admits that he and his girlfriend scouted the depth charts of the teams that were expressing interest in him after the draft. He calculated that Houston had the best chance for him to become the starter, oh AND they paid him something like twice the amount he was offered by the Saints (IIRC).

Money & Opportunity. For a guy like Foster, he just needed a way into the NFL (but he also considered the contract dollars). For an established free agent who is respectable and Pro Bowl caliber? It gets a lot more complicated than just "throwing money at him." They don't want to be miserable, especially if they are coming out of a miserable situation (such as leaving the Raiders after all those years). I guarantee you that Andre Johnson wouldn't leave the Texans for a lateral move. He'd be headed to a team that he felt could get him to a title AND pay him too.

This really is silly, as you said, but for different reasons than you theorized earlier.

Getting Aso in free agency would be like hitting the lottery; it would be phenomenal JUST based on (A) Him even considering coming to a struggling team like the one he had just left behind, and (B) Bob McNair paying him a fair and relatively adequate salary for what his skills can demand in the open market. As it stands, it would be breaking the natural law of NFL physics for Aso to be on this team once free agency is open for business. And I'm not trying to be a doom and gloomer here...I'm just saying that reality is a cold, hard you-know-what.

Contrast that with Al Harris wanting to sign with Miami, b/c his family was there..

The priority list for each individual FA is different...you're right in the sense that Aso signing here would defy the natural law of NFL physics simply b/c he's been on a losing team his entire career & it is unlikely he'll want to come play for a loser...which is what we are up to this point.

Which brings me to my next point..this commitment to winning crap. Players only buy into that 1) if there's already tradition there of winning & 2) If said player was drafted by the coach....neither of which apply to the texans in FA.

I'd absolutely LOVE for a player of Aso's caliber to sign here..But I realistically look at it from both sides. If i'm Mcnair, i know that in all liklihood, i'm going to have to sign this guy to a ridiculous contract which i don't want to have to do...no owner would except for the 1 who gave him his last contract & probably dan snyder. On the other side of it if i'm Aso, short of this ridiculous contract, what incentive do i have to sign with a team with no winning tradition, especially when i have other more readily competitive teams offering me the same?

You guys kill Mcnair & the FO for not signing these guys but you freely acknowledge that the deck is stacked against them when it comes to signing these caliber of players? Doesn't appear you guys are being fair in that regard....

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Al Davis throwing money around? Oh and Al Davis has built many teams over the years. Yeah, dude is old and has done some senile stuff lately but he has put together some great teams over the years. I wouldn't lump him in with Snyder. Al Davis knows football but his mental state is in question. Ill give him a pass.

Look at Bud's mishandling of fisher young situation. He is getting senile too. Old school AFL Guys are getting old. Even Bowlen, assuredly partially due to failing health, has had a hard time as owner lately. He used to be known as a model NFL owner.

McNair needs to change the carebear culture and the move for Wade only reinforces that culture. Hopefully I am wrong about that.

ehh..i disagree with the move for wade reinforcing the culture. There's a few things McNair could've done other than what he did that would've reinforced the carebear culture.

He could've let Gary bring another 1 of his inexperienced cronies in for the DC job.

He could've let gary keep Bush on as DC...:vincepalm:

He could've let Gary keep Bush & just made him fire his db coach.

He didn't though. He stepped in & did the next best thing....short of firing kubiak of course.

TexCanada
03-28-2011, 11:02 AM
LoL. alright coach 2nd honeymoon...i'm Nmandi Asomaugha, How do you show me that you're "committed to winning" or "excellence" or whatever lockerroom slogan you want to use? Prove to me you're just not another Al Davis or Dan Snyder throwing money around & have no idea how to build a winning team.

I think there are plenty of reasons why a FA would choose to go to a certain team. As has already been mentioned, a chance for success is huge. We can't provide that, at least not yet.

Players are also going to go to a place with nice facilities and a good fan base. I'm sure players aren't really all that excited to go to Jacksonville where the stadium is half empty all the time.

I'm sure players are also going to pick a team where they like the coach.

And, if all that fails, the only way to get Aso here is to grossly overpay him.

GP
03-28-2011, 11:03 AM
you're right in the sense that Aso signing here would defy the natural law of NFL physics simply b/c he's been on a losing team his entire career & it is unlikely he'll want to come play for a loser...which is what we are up to this point.

BINGO!

So the answer to the riddle is this: GET RID OF THE LOSERS! Fire Kubiak, get a competent, true "head coach" in here and be about the business of building a winner. And when free agents SEE the commitment to winning, the deck suddenly isn't so stacked against us.

You swerved right into what I am saying. By accident.

The Texans are being treated as if they are a fragile, delicate object that has to be handled with extreme caution. Get rid of Gary Kubiak?!?! GASP! Why, the team might dissolve altogether! LOL. Look, he isn't going to do anything different for us than what he's already done for us. Even the addition of Wade Phillips is flawed from many different angles, and could possibly backfire BIG TIME. It's a gamble.

What would have been a more acceptable gamble, to me, would have been to rid the team of Smithiak and bring in Bill Cowher. Yeah, yeah, yeah: But nobody wanted Bill Cowher. No, owners knew they were headed for labor problems and didn't want to pay the remainder of a fired coach's contract AND the new mega-huge Cowher contract at the same time. Bill Cowher's biggest enemy was the CBA problems--Sunk his chances at a big deal this year. There were some hirings going on, but nothing of large financial consequence to the owners making head coaching moves in the past few months.

Look, we're at that magical place in this conversation. I declare you to be the winner, and winning as defined by Bob McNair.

disaacks3
03-28-2011, 11:06 AM
The only successful thing that Smithiak has been able to do here is stay in Mcnair's good graces. In a nutshell Bob thinks they're "On the Right Track", even if the train has started going backwards. I'd like McNair to hook up a couple of strong engines in FA to pull the caboose over the hill.

I will just wait and see because words are not the same as actions. The question is...how much longer do we wait for results before it's OK to blast the F.O. for lack of improvement?

I get frustration and disappointment. What SH was communicating is disdain. I do not understand supporting things that one hates. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying that he is objectively wrong to continue rooting for the Texans. I'm simply attempting to understand the appeal. To hold the owner/founder, along with his decision-makers, in such ill-regard and yet still spend significant time/money/care "rooting" for them simply defies logic. What's that difficult to understand? I root for many teams in many sports. My "fandom" isn't strictly based on W/L record. Recognizing the faults of an organization is what makes me different from a 'blind homer'.

b0ng
03-28-2011, 11:12 AM
The question is...how much longer do we wait for results before it's OK to blast the F.O. for lack of improvement?



People here are waiting to blast the FO? This is certainly news to me. I hope McNair comes out next week and says we're going to do something crazy, just so I can see this board erupt with new opinions.

Actually though, I don't come back to this board as much as I used to so I'd probably miss out anyway. Kinda sad.

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 11:34 AM
BINGO!

So the answer to the riddle is this: GET RID OF THE LOSERS! Fire Kubiak, get a competent, true "head coach" in here and be about the business of building a winner. And when free agents SEE the commitment to winning, the deck suddenly isn't so stacked against us.

You swerved right into what I am saying. By accident.

The Texans are being treated as if they are a fragile, delicate object that has to be handled with extreme caution. Get rid of Gary Kubiak?!?! GASP! Why, the team might dissolve altogether! LOL. Look, he isn't going to do anything different for us than what he's already done for us. Even the addition of Wade Phillips is flawed from many different angles, and could possibly backfire BIG TIME. It's a gamble.

What would have been a more acceptable gamble, to me, would have been to rid the team of Smithiak and bring in Bill Cowher. Yeah, yeah, yeah: But nobody wanted Bill Cowher. No, owners knew they were headed for labor problems and didn't want to pay the remainder of a fired coach's contract AND the new mega-huge Cowher contract at the same time. Bill Cowher's biggest enemy was the CBA problems--Sunk his chances at a big deal this year. There were some hirings going on, but nothing of large financial consequence to the owners making head coaching moves in the past few months.

Look, we're at that magical place in this conversation. I declare you to be the winner, and winning as defined by Bob McNair.


We don't see eye to eye b/c of our outlook on winners & losers imo. You obviously think that winning & losing is something innate to the person(s) whereas i don't...i look at winning as a process of knowledge & luck. I don't think getting rid of Kubiak & Smith could hurt us anymore than we're already hurting, i just don't think that bringing in someone who's had success elsewhere automatically translates to winning in another place b/c each situation is different. This isn't college basketball where it's simply a matter of recruiting & if you can afford a Caliperi, Williams you pretty much guaranteed to win.

& what you guys fail to take into account when you take this stance is that we've had "winners" by the exact definition at HC & GM when we had Capers & Casserly here. Capers had success in Carolina building a team from scratch & building a stout defense....Casserly had had tons of success working in the Redskins organization as a scout & GM. It didn't translate to us.

steelbtexan
03-28-2011, 11:43 AM
The problem is NOT the facts. The problem is the INTERPRETATION of the facts, which can be bastardized.

Two facts are indisputable.

Fact One: This franchise has accumulated elite financial status in the sports world (let alone the NFL).
Fact Two: Our win-loss record remains pathetic.

However, be assured that ways will continue to be found to somehow even bastardize these two simple facts.


Just the facts sir

They tend to get in the way of all of sunshine and koolaid

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Just the facts sir

They tend to get in the way of all of sunshine and koolaid

& pitchforks, feathers & tar...

Texecutioner
03-28-2011, 11:54 AM
Recognizing the faults of an organization is what makes me different from a 'blind homer'.

And see that's the difference from many fans in here. People who have been posting in here for years are aware of the ones in here that get angry and upset any time the organization is criticized and have to feel like they have to wear some long cape as the UBER FAN. There are certain homers that are dedicated and have committed and programmed themselves to believe that the Texans are destined for greatness every year no matter what happens in the off season and how they improve the roster or no matter what history has told us about an adminastration. Then there are guys that love Houston sports as natives or were natives here and root for the team, but are disgusted by the losership of Smithiaknair. They want competency and they want an organization that is committed to winning. Nothing wrong with rooting for your team and wanting them to win, but to keep saying the same stuff over and over for years after being wrong over and over is just pointless.

Texecutioner
03-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Or the fact that the Texans have indeed spent plenty of money or at least league avg. in FA over the years as has been pointed out by several of us......

No they haven't and no one outside of Texans homerville has ever pointed that out. As a matter of fact the Texans get criticized practically every year going into the season for doing hardly anything to improve their team outside of the draft.





Or the fact that just maybe there are other reasons besides money that big time FA's don't sign here......

You're right. We have no GM here that knows how to "sell" to players. Our GM is a half ass GM that shares the duties with Kubiak the dumbass and between both of them neither one of them knows how to paint a pretty picture for our future here. This isn't a rocket science question. It's real simple. You communicate with players or their agents and present what you plan on doing for the future to make both units top notch units and make them believe that they're an early part of that. You create excitement for that free agent to come here and be part of something huge. That, and you obviously have to pay them what they're worth at least. It's not that hard to sell a game plan to someone. If it's a guy like Nnamdi, you tell him that you're going to stack the secondary and your main focus will be to get good guys up front to rush the passer and that defense will become a huge focus since the offense is already great and that Nnamdi is going to be an essential part of that in the quest to winning a SB which is only a year or two away and that Houston will be a great place to retire.

Your mentality always seems with free agents always seems to be "we can't, we can't, we shouldn't, we shouldn't". It's a pessimistic style of thinking everything you might want to do to improve your team is a huge risk that will blow up unless it's drafting a bunch of unproven rookies to fill holes.

Mr teX
03-28-2011, 12:12 PM
And see that's the difference from many fans in here. People who have been posting in here for years are aware of the ones in here that get angry and upset any time the organization is criticized and have to feel like they have to wear some long cape as the UBER FAN. There are certain homers that are dedicated and have committed and programmed themselves to believe that the Texans are destined for greatness every year no matter what happens in the off season and how they improve the roster or no matter what history has told us about an adminastration. Then there are guys that love Houston sports as natives or were natives here and root for the team, but are disgusted by the losership of Smithiaknair. They want competency and they want an organization that is committed to winning. Nothing wrong with rooting for your team and wanting them to win, but to keep saying the same stuff over and over for years after being wrong over and over is just pointless.

& then there are the armchair GM's/coaches/owners/player fans who think they're being better fans somehow b/c they criticize every single thing organization does warranted or otherwise. Those that don't subscribe wholeheartedly to their philosophy are labeled, homers, sunshiners or "uber" fans.

steelbtexan
03-28-2011, 12:13 PM
& pitchforks, feathers & tar...

Cant get around it can you.

As to your other post

A winning GM/HC isn't hard to find and doesn't take a genius to find one.

Taking a team to a SB win does take a certain amount of luck. But as long as Gary and Rick are here this is something we as fans dont need to be concerned about.

steelbtexan
03-28-2011, 12:18 PM
& then there are the armchair GM's/coaches/owners/player fans who think they're being better fans somehow b/c they criticize every single thing organization does warranted or otherwise. Those that don't subscribe wholeheartedly to their philosophy are labeled, homers, sunshiners or "uber" fans.

When the team puts a winner on the field the criticism will stop and not before then. BoB is making his $$$$. Is it wrong to hold him to a higher standard than the current standard?

Gary and Rick are losers and there's 5 yrs of proof to back that up.

Texecutioner
03-28-2011, 12:20 PM
& then there are the armchair GM's/coaches/owners/player fans who think they're being better fans somehow b/c they criticize every single thing organization does warranted or otherwise. Those that don't subscribe wholeheartedly to their philosophy are labeled, homers, sunshiners or "uber" fans.

No, I've never criticized homers for loving their team. Good for them and good for Mcnair to have people that will keep shoveling money in his pockets. That's what he wants. I'll root for my team, but I won't stop criticizing them until they're actually on the right track with a coach that can get them somewhere. Being a homer isn't an insult. It's just that for football conversation I won't take what a blind homer says with any validity to it because someone like that can't get rid of their bias as a fan and will always look at anything as a positive no matter what. That's not what I'd call an honest sound observer. Being a homer is not an insult though. Fans have their ways of going about supporting their team and franchise.