PDA

View Full Version : Vance Joseph DB Coach


srrono
02-17-2011, 03:58 PM
Vance Joseph: CBs will challenge routes
By Paul Kuharsky

Good defensive backs should have short memories. Typically that cliched line is applied play-to-play or game-to-game. In the case of the Houston Texans, season-to-season would be good, too.

Houston had the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2010, yielding 267.5 yards a game. The Texans gave up single-game passing totals of 419, 403, 329, 305 and 301 yards.

Their plan to rely on young cornerbacks Kareem Jackson, Glover Quin and Brice McCain backfired.

“They are terrible,” Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. said of Houston’s defensive backs. Veteran safeties Eugene Wilson and Bernard Pollard could both be replaced.

“In fact, they are right there with division-mate Jacksonville as the worst secondary in all of football. The Texans' safeties -- who are terrible in coverage -- deserve a lot of blame, as does a pass-rush that could use upgrading," Williamson said.

"But I blame the secondary much more than the pass-rush. As for the cornerbacks, it is way too early to write off Jackson. I did like him coming out of Alabama and he has to get better in Year 2. But wow, he was pretty terrible as a rookie.

“I would classify Brice McCain and Troy Nolan as ‘just a couple of guys’ and they need to be down-the-line contributors. Glover Quin is the best of the group right now, but in the end, I like him as a No. 3 corner with Jackson as one starter [possibly] and someone to be determined as the opposite starter. As for adding a veteran [Champ Bailey?], I am all for it. Not only does this secondary need veteran leadership, but so does the entire football team.”

Surely the Texans will be players in free agency -- if and when there is free agency. If they add a superstar corner like Nnamdi Asomugha or Bailey, shift each corner the Texans already have down a peg, find better safeties and get a better pass rush out of the 3-4 being installed by new coordinator Wade Phillips, things could be a lot better.

But Vance Joseph, who after five seasons with the San Francisco 49ers replaces David Gibbs as Texans secondary coach, can’t depend on that big addition. He’s got to focus on who he has right now.

Joseph has met and talked with his young guys about having clean slates and about how they can develop.

As is the nature of football in February, Joseph is relatively upbeat.

Joseph Dishes On His Young DBs

New Texans secondary coach Vance Joseph scouts four of his key, young defensive backs.

Kareem JacksonOn Kareem Jackson: "He hasn't played corner very long, he only played in college two years, so he's got a lot of room to grow. He's tough, he's not afraid. He's a blank page, he can work on everything from technique to football IQ."

Glover QuinOn Glover Quin: "He's a really good football player. He's a guy with some flexibility, he plays inside, he plays outside. Being around this kid, he shouldn't change a thing. Just continue to get better.

Brice McCainOn Brice McCain: "He's probably our best movement guy in terms of quickness and feet and all that stuff. I like Brice. Hopefully he can get stronger."

Troy Nolan On Troy Nolan: "He's very bright, he's a raw talent. He can continue to get stronger, continue to grow his football IQ and he'll be fine."
“I’m aware of what they did last year, I’ve watched the film and I’ll tell you, it’s not as bad as everyone thinks,” he said. “You’ve got to play better. And until those guys go out there and play better, that’s going to stick to them. We’ve got to do a good job of protecting those young corners.

“Obviously getting some pass rush helps, having some scheme things tweaked where they won’t be on their own a lot helps. But you regain confidence by playing well. So until they play better, that won’t be the case.”

When a new position coach joins a team to help fix a problem area, I want to know what he sees early on that he believes can be changed. Joseph said he often saw guys in position who couldn’t make the play.

Joseph said while secondary guys always need to be wary of getting beat for a big play over the top, fear of that can really cost a defense.

Expect the 2011 Texans to be closer to pass catchers on shorter stuff.

“That’s the part I’ve got to get right, finishing and making plays and giving them tools to make and finish plays,” Joseph said. “…On early downs, it’s back-pedaling, staying square and challenging routes. In the NFL, [receivers] are going to catch balls, but you want to make them bang-bang plays. When they catch the ball, I want them tackled.

“That’s something we can help them with, playing more square from the line of scrimmage and not bailing as much. When you’re bailing, you’re conceding most routes. You say, ‘Hey, I’m not going to get beat deep but I’m going to give you a 20-yard comeback.’ We’re going to play square and we’re going to challenge routes.”

While Joseph hopes his group will be able to play a wide variety of coverages, he also believes it’s important that in times of crisis they can fall back on something standard.

Last season, the defensive backs rarely seemed to have that reset mode. Going forward, Joseph’s hope is they always can return to something they know they are good at that can help them get through a tough day with a good result.

Phillips’ new defensive system won’t affect the secondary like it will the defensive line and linebackers. But there will be benefits out of a more unpredictable front for defensive backs.

“The beauty, I think, of playing defensive back in the 34 is the disguise mechanisms,” Joseph said. “You’re going to start in a basic two-shell, then move into your coverages. When you’re a 4-3 team, they know the four rushers, they’re down with their hands on the ground.

“Now, we can hold our coverage and the offense doesn’t know where that fourth rusher is coming from …. It kind of helps protect corners. Until a ball is snapped, that quarterback won’t know what we are in.”

Young guys, in disguise, able to fall back on something they know they are good at, eager to prove they are better than 32nd in the league. It’s like a lot of offseason recipes, filled with hope and promise.

Shooting for the stars is fine, but the Texans' secondary doesn’t have to be filled with stars to alter its reputation and play winning football.

“We don’t need guys who are going to Hawaii every year,” Joseph said. “We’ve got to stress here that we just need guys who fit what we do and are capable of doing the job within the system.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/37550/sort/oldest/vance-joseph-cbs-will-challenge-routes

TimeKiller
02-17-2011, 04:41 PM
“We don’t need guys who are going to Hawaii every year,” Joseph said. “We’ve got to stress here that we just need guys who fit what we do and are capable of doing the job within the system.”
Yeah. Our worst secondary of damn near all time needs anything BUT a probowler. What they need is more mid to late round rookies.

We can forget about Asomugha and probably Bailey too because they make probowls and making probowls isn't part of the system.

Barf. Way to make a first impression VeeJay.

srrono
02-17-2011, 05:13 PM
Yeah. Our worst secondary of damn near all time needs anything BUT a probowler. What they need is more mid to late round rookies.

We can forget about Asomugha and probably Bailey too because they make probowls and making probowls isn't part of the system.

Barf. Way to make a first impression VeeJay.


I think this is more a coach coming in supporting the players here on the team telling them he expects more from them. Would it be better to come in and say all our dbs suck then not bring any one new in and have that statement out there.

You try to improve the dbs we have and hopefully add some more db talent to our team.

CloakNNNdagger
02-17-2011, 05:37 PM
I think this is more a coach coming in supporting the players here on the team telling them he expects more from them. Would it be better to come in and say all our dbs suck then not bring any one new in and have that statement out there.

You try to improve the dbs we have and hopefully add some more db talent to our team.


I don't see this statement being anything less than an extension of the entire last year's "HOPE and CHANGE" approach which worked out so beautifully.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if someone............ANYONE on the Texans would inequivocably put people on notice......."Hey, you sucked ALL last year..........now, at best, you get only 2 months to prove yourself until you get to SUCK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM.:wild:

TimeKiller
02-17-2011, 05:53 PM
I think this is more a coach coming in supporting the players here on the team telling them he expects more from them. Would it be better to come in and say all our dbs suck then not bring any one new in and have that statement out there.
Does anyone need to say they sucked? Pretty common knowledge right?

"I will not accept anything near last place, either these guys can step it up or we'll find someone who will. This secondary will drastically improve through any means necessary and help the defense, the offense, the team reach the expectations they've failed to meet in recent years."

Why? WHY would you settle for anything less? Because you play/coach for Kubiak and IT DOESN"T ****ING MATTER.

We don't need probowlers. We need guys who fit a system, which apparently excludes elite talent...so that elite talent can eat their lunch every weekend. Or you know....damn near anyone who feels like putting on a helmet and pads.


You try to improve the dbs we have and hopefully add some more db talent to our team.
That's so obvious I can't even believe you would bother typing it. What team is NOT trying to improve at any position? Colts at QB? Ok....

JB
02-17-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't see this statement being anything less than an extension of the entire last year's "HOPE and CHANGE" approach which worked out so beautifully.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if someone............ANYONE on the Texans would inequivocably put people on notice......."Hey, you sucked ALL last year..........now, at best, you get only 2 months to prove yourself until you get to SUCK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM.:wild:

Why on earth would you ever want anyone on the Texans to do that publicly? What would it accomplish other than causing bad blood in the locker room?

CloakNNNdagger
02-17-2011, 06:13 PM
Why on earth would you ever want anyone on the Texans to do that publicly? What would it accomplish other than causing bad blood in the locker room?

Nowhere did I say publicly. But even so, bad blood is not what I'd be worried about now........more like getting some good blood on this team. This team has always been worried more about not stepping on toes rather than cleaning out the rubbish. And there are ways to send subtle messages through the public waves to players to add some real pressures of seriousness.....something that hard-working and productive players will not in the least be affected by.

devo-x
02-17-2011, 08:06 PM
They are terrible,� Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. said of Houston�s defensive backs. Veteran safeties Eugene Wilson and Bernard Pollard could both be replaced.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/37550/sort/oldest/vance-joseph-cbs-will-challenge-routes


Who will replace our two starting safeties? It seems like the one position that's never been addressed by this franchise :thinking:

Lucky
02-17-2011, 09:02 PM
“That’s something we can help them with, playing more square from the line of scrimmage and not bailing as much. When you’re bailing, you’re conceding most routes. You say, ‘Hey, I’m not going to get beat deep but I’m going to give you a 20-yard comeback.’ We’re going to play square and we’re going to challenge routes.”
This is most important quote from Joseph. Gibbs' techniques didn't work with this group. Jackson, Quin, etc. will go back to what they've been taught since middle school. That alone should make them more instinctive. These guys are young and maybe their careers can be salvaged. An infusion of talent (preferably veteran) is still needed in the secondary. A #1 CB. A FS. Maybe a new SS. But maybe Quin and Jackson (and even McManis) can bounce back and turn this unit into a serviceable group.

Maybe.

EllisUnit
02-17-2011, 09:54 PM
Did he really say the secondary wasnt as bad as it looked. I'd like to know what he was looking at when he made this comment. You can put butter on a turd, but its still a turd. :thisbig:. I'm not liking this guy already.

thunderkyss
02-17-2011, 10:01 PM
It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if someone............ANYONE on the Texans would inequivocably put people on notice......."Hey, you sucked ALL last year..........now, at best, you get only 2 months to prove yourself until you get to SUCK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM.:wild:

Because sitting McCain & taking snaps from Kareem just doesn't say enough right?

GP
02-17-2011, 11:44 PM
Did he really say the secondary wasnt as bad as it looked. I'd like to know what he was looking at when he made this comment. You can put butter on a turd, but its still a turd. :thisbig:. I'm not liking this guy already.

Hey now...he's just echoing Wade Phillips. And Gary Kubiak.

Just another in a long line of people who say "Meh, I can work with this guy or that guy. No big deal, Bob."

I mean, you can't look at Bob McNair and tell him his guys are losers. They might cry.

Wolf6151
02-18-2011, 03:32 AM
This guy talks a good story but so did Richard Smith and Frank Bush. I ain't buying none of it til I see it on the field. Lets see a good draft and then a good team on the field with improvement in existing players.

CloakNNNdagger
02-18-2011, 07:08 AM
Because sitting McCain & taking snaps from Kareem just doesn't say enough right?

That was not as much a "message" as it was pure DESPERATION.:kubepalm:

bigbrewster2000
02-18-2011, 08:27 AM
I don't see this statement being anything less than an extension of the entire last year's "HOPE and CHANGE" approach which worked out so beautifully.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if someone............ANYONE on the Texans would inequivocably put people on notice......."Hey, you sucked ALL last year..........now, at best, you get only 2 months to prove yourself until you get to SUCK ON SOMEONE ELSE'S TEAM.:wild:

Actually it says in the article that he specifically told his guys that they need to get better. That's putting them on notice without saying Hey Kareem "you suck", since saying that would really get the players to want to listen to the coach. Where have you ever heard a coach come out and single out a player in the way you are wanting? Cant think of one myself.

TheRealJoker
02-18-2011, 09:59 AM
I would've liked to have heard what he thinks of Jason Allen.

srrono
02-18-2011, 11:52 AM
Injury Prone Bob Sanders was released today
Is a halftime player in Sanders better than the fulltime safetys the Texans have? I think at the right price I would do it. Maybe a high incentive based contract.

MistaRed
02-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Injury Prone Bob Sanders was released today
Is a halftime player in Sanders better than the fulltime safetys the Texans have? I think at the right price I would do it. Maybe a high incentive based contract.

I agree. Wont hurt us if we take a chance on Sanders

Double Barrel
02-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Talk about déjà vu. Replace Joseph with Kubiak and CBs for HWWNBN, and the words are almost identical in their delusions, circa 2006.

I understand that this is a public statement, so there should be no expectations of throwing players under a bus. But his brimming-with-optimism enthusiasm is so over-the-top that it strikes me that he actually believes what he is saying, and that's the part that makes me question his objectivity.

What if VJ is saying these same things to Kubiak/Smith/Wade? And they figure they don't need to get any new talent because coach VJ can fix them? This is apparently what happened with Frank Bush, as we learned when the team threw him under the bus.

There has to be mechanisms at the top that tempers expectations and keeps them real. So far, we are not seeing the attention to reality with the staff, starting from the beginning with Kubiak and HWWNBN. Their egos are getting in the way of clear thinking, because some players simply cannot be 'coached up' and just have to be relegated or jettisoned completely.

Hope is a horrible coaching technique.

CloakNNNdagger
02-18-2011, 12:44 PM
Actually it says in the article that he specifically told his guys that they need to get better. That's putting them on notice without saying Hey Kareem "you suck", since saying that would really get the players to want to listen to the coach. Where have you ever heard a coach come out and single out a player in the way you are wanting? Cant think of one myself.

Rasheem Morris, for one, had no problem publicly confronting even some of the Buc's "no names" such as Bryant, Clayton and Winslow.

bigbrewster2000
02-18-2011, 01:29 PM
Rasheem Morris, for one, had no problem publicly confronting even some of the Buc's "no names" such as Bryant, Clayton and Winslow.

By telling them that they sucked or that they needed to do a better job? Sorry I need an explanation. Havent heard about that

CloakNNNdagger
02-18-2011, 03:29 PM
By telling them that they sucked or that they needed to do a better job? Sorry I need an explanation. Havent heard about that

During a period of time when it happened (I think it was back in the 2009 season), he was interviewed (reported by many news media) and was very berating of these players going long stretches without being able to hang on to simple passes, for that matter any passes. Did he use the word "suck"?.......I don't believe so. But his words could have been substituted very nicely without changing the meaning.

ArlingtonTexan
02-18-2011, 03:34 PM
I just heard Rob Ryans' interview as Cowboys DC. Like the Texans that defense was awful and like the rest of Ryan clan good ol Rob is supposed to be a straight shooting load mouth. Guess what? He made the 2010 Cowboy defense sound like the Superbowl cowboy defenses when asked about specfic personnel.

Like the vast majority people, they are not going to take the most public of forums and say ______ sucked arse last year knowing that they are going to have to work with then until the team finds better.

Also, remember these dude are not coaching at the highest level in football because lack confidence in their coaching. Whether it technique, scheme or motivation, all of these guys think they have something that the last coach did not. so, yes, Joseph thinks that he can make Jackson, quinn, McCain, McManus better by just his being there instead of whoever that last guy was.

thunderkyss
02-18-2011, 05:36 PM
Rasheem Morris, for one, had no problem publicly confronting even some of the Buc's "no names" such as Bryant, Clayton and Winslow.

Can you elaborate on these public confrontations?

CloakNNNdagger
02-18-2011, 07:11 PM
Can you elaborate on these public confrontations?

I can't tell you exact words......obviously, too long ago. But from what I remember they were far from subtle.

EllisUnit
02-18-2011, 08:56 PM
I would've liked to have heard what he thinks of Jason Allen.

me too unless they dont plan on resigning him. I think he showed he can be an every down CB last season. If they dont sign him then i will really start to question this teams commitment to win.

badboy
02-19-2011, 04:17 PM
me too unless they dont plan on resigning him. I think he showed he can be an every down CB last season. If they dont sign him then i will really start to question this teams commitment to win.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Jason-Allen/fb5b3c37-9417-4069-b3b8-4562bc23af56

Allen had 6 INTs, 3 each with Houston & Miami. He is 27. For some reason I thought he played FS for us.

JB
02-19-2011, 04:38 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Jason-Allen/fb5b3c37-9417-4069-b3b8-4562bc23af56

Allen had 6 INTs, 3 each with Houston & Miami. He is 27. For some reason I thought he played FS for us.

He played corner for us. With Miami iirc he started out as a corner, and struggled so they moved him to safety in 09. He struggled there so they moved him back to corner, and released him. While he may have been a bit better than Jackson last year, I don't think he is any more than JAG.

This is what Scouts Inc. had to say about him prior to the '10 season.

Allen is a backup cornerback who has never played up to expectations in Miami. He is a tall corner with long arms. However, he is a little high cut. That hinders his ability to flip his hips and run. He has good straight-line speed once he gets his hips flipped. He is not a very instinctive player in off coverage. He is slow to plant and drive on the football. He does not play with a lot of urgency in run support. Allen is a naturally talented player who never has developed his game or ascended to the level he should have been at.

Link (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=9602)

Texans_Chick
02-20-2011, 12:37 PM
This is most important quote from Joseph. Gibbs' techniques didn't work with this group. Jackson, Quin, etc. will go back to what they've been taught since middle school. That alone should make them more instinctive. These guys are young and maybe their careers can be salvaged. An infusion of talent (preferably veteran) is still needed in the secondary. A #1 CB. A FS. Maybe a new SS. But maybe Quin and Jackson (and even McManis) can bounce back and turn this unit into a serviceable group.

Maybe.

I think this is an important point.

In talking to various NFL people outside the Texans, their number one thing they mentioned to me was that they didn't think the CB technique that they were using was sound.

I'd still like to see some vet leadership but I have to say that this is the most hopeful I've been about the defense in a long time.

Maddict5
02-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Can you elaborate on these public confrontations?

I can't tell you exact words......obviously, too long ago. But from what I remember they were far from subtle.

http://www.procanes.com/files/category-kellen-winslow.html

Sep/29/09 10:15 PM
At a time when many (like us) are questioning whether Browns coach Eric Mangini might lose his players by privately fining them, we think it's fair to wonder whether Bucs coach Raheem Morris might lose his players by publicly calling them out.

Most noticeably, Morris seemingly questioned the desire of tight end Kellen Winslow on a third-down play from the first drive of Sunday's 24-0 loss to the Giants.

On a play that needed five yards for a first down, Winslow (per the Tampa Tribune) caught the ball short of the sticks, moved horizontally and then reached the ball out with his arm.

Winslow came up a yard short.

Morris, on Monday, let his disappointment with Winslow's effort be known.

"Should he have squared his shoulders and tried to get the first down?" Morris said. "Yes. Yes. He has to. We all do. We all have to have that want-to."

Indeed, it wouldn't have been the first time that Morris had choice words for Winslow and Winslow alone. In early August, Morris said that Winslow is "too up and down emotonally."

Still, it was the Bucs who sent a second-round pick to the Browns for Winslow, and it was the Bucs who gave him a big contract with a lot of guaranteed money. It's not as if Winslow had been a model citizen (or a stoic) during the first five years of his career, so the Buccaneers arguably knew or should have known what they were getting themselves into.

i wouldnt say raheem said he sucked in any form but yes he did semi-call him out a little bit. fwiw, kubiaks said the exact same things about jacoby- he just phrases it slightly differently. depends on your taste imo... some ppl are all impressed with showmanship, others arent

CloakNNNdagger
02-20-2011, 07:33 PM
http://www.procanes.com/files/category-kellen-winslow.html



i wouldnt say raheem said he sucked in any form but yes he did semi-call him out a little bit. fwiw, kubiaks said the exact same things about jacoby- he just phrases it slightly differently. depends on your taste imo... some ppl are all impressed with showmanship, others arent

Thanks for finding one of the "episodes." There were other instances with his receivers, but you're right........some coaches can keep it in their pants a little better than others.:)

BullNation4Life
02-21-2011, 07:27 AM
Yeah. Our worst secondary of damn near all time needs anything BUT a probowler. What they need is more mid to late round rookies.

We can forget about Asomugha and probably Bailey too because they make probowls and making probowls isn't part of the system.

Barf. Way to make a first impression VeeJay.

I think you missed his point and I think he is right. Go look at the Steelers and tell me how many DBs on that team are Pro Bowlers? 2, maybe. Go look at the Ravens and how many DBs are Pro Bowlers? 2, maybe, Green Bay the same way. Patriots, 1-2...

I think he was saying that you do not need a Pro Bowl player at every CB and Safety position to be successful. You just need Cbs and Safeties that do their jobs and do it correctly to have success.

Now if the become Pro Bowl calibur players, then that is a reflection of the coaching but I think Joseph feels there is enough talent in the secondary to coach to success and I think after this year, with different Secondary coaching, we will find out if it was truly lack of coaching that made them horrible last year or is it really talent or lack there of....

But adding a veteran CB is never a bad idea....

thunderkyss
02-23-2011, 05:40 PM
I think he was saying that you do not need a Pro Bowl player at every CB and Safety position to be successful. You just need Cbs and Safeties that do their jobs and do it correctly to have success.


I think winning changes the perception of players... usually. Make a few plays on a winning team, and BAM, you're a probowler even though you may not have played better than the most average player.

Now, make the probowl on a team that hasn't won in a decade (Nmandi, AJ, Foster, Demeco, Mario, Cushing, OD, Leach, Schaub, Jacoby) then you've got something.


Poor coaching

EllisUnit
02-23-2011, 07:51 PM
He played corner for us. With Miami iirc he started out as a corner, and struggled so they moved him to safety in 09. He struggled there so they moved him back to corner, and released him. While he may have been a bit better than Jackson last year, I don't think he is any more than JAG.

This is what Scouts Inc. had to say about him prior to the '10 season.



Link (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=9602)

well regardless of what scouts inc says. i know what i saw last season. i saw a CB who was very good in man, and usually always had his man covered. One who had a nose for the ball. Dont we believe in second chances.

JB
02-23-2011, 08:36 PM
well regardless of what scouts inc says. i know what i saw last season. i saw a CB who was very good in man, and usually always had his man covered. One who had a nose for the ball. Dont we believe in second chances.

I agree that he might have been the best we had on the team at the end of last year. I just don't think he is all that, and if we can sign a veteran, I would rather go that route and let our youngsters be the depth.

Wolf6151
02-24-2011, 02:01 AM
I'm all for keeping Jason Allen on the team by re-signing him, he'll be cheap and we can always cut him in training camp if he doesn't work out. He was our best CB last year which isn't saying much but the guy has great size, speed, and easily played well enough to get a training camp invite.

Mr teX
02-24-2011, 09:05 AM
I like the versatility Allen brings (cb, fs) & i'd like him to take the place of Brice McCain on the roster b/c i think McCain should be cut. But Allen in a starters position.................no. He's been in the league long enough for us to know what he is & it aint a starting caliber cb.

IDEXAN
02-24-2011, 09:46 AM
I became a serious Allen fan last year when I saw him run down Chris Johnson, and that's the truth. Johnson caught a short little pass out in the flat, really closer to the sideline, he takes off with the ball, but Allen ran the guy down, I kid you not ! Maybe you remember the play ?
All things considered he's atleast our second best CB (after Quin), so yes we definitely need to keep him if at all possible.

Double Barrel
02-24-2011, 10:45 AM
I became a serious Allen fan last year when I saw him run down Chris Johnson, and that's the truth. Johnson caught a short little pass out in the flat, really closer to the sideline, he takes off with the ball, but Allen ran the guy down, I kid you not ! Maybe you remember the play ?
All things considered he's atleast our second best CB (after Quin), so yes we definitely need to keep him if at all possible.

http://prod.static.titans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/APImage/2010/12-December/7e08f4aafa7743009eec3fec645e8d9c--nfl_large_580_Unlimited.jpg

Here's more (http://www.titansonline.com/media-center/photos/Texans-Titans-Football-Chris-Johnson-Jason-Allen/f28529c6-bffb-4b80-bbb8-3efa08b3ac8d).

IDEXAN
02-24-2011, 01:09 PM
http://prod.static.titans.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/APImage/2010/12-December/7e08f4aafa7743009eec3fec645e8d9c--nfl_large_580_Unlimited.jpg

Here's more (http://www.titansonline.com/media-center/photos/Texans-Titans-Football-Chris-Johnson-Jason-Allen/f28529c6-bffb-4b80-bbb8-3efa08b3ac8d).
Thanks for the pics DB - you're a good man !

76Texan
02-24-2011, 05:06 PM
I became a serious Allen fan last year when I saw him run down Chris Johnson, and that's the truth. Johnson caught a short little pass out in the flat, really closer to the sideline, he takes off with the ball, but Allen ran the guy down, I kid you not ! Maybe you remember the play ?
All things considered he's atleast our second best CB (after Quin), so yes we definitely need to keep him if at all possible.

If only speed can be the only thing a CB needs.
Chris Johnson 4.24
Mike Wallace 4.33
Jason Allen 4.39

Notice that Allen was in the shuffle and had at least 8 yds head start on Wallace

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b9027c/Wallace-53-yard-TD

Besides speed, there's technique and coverage.
IMO, on that play, it wasn't really speed that torched Allen.
Watch the QB drop, the overall pass patterns, the coverage.
Chew on it a little; I'd like to hear your take (and anybody else's.)

EllisUnit
02-24-2011, 09:19 PM
If only speed can be the only thing a CB needs.
Chris Johnson 4.24
Mike Wallace 4.33
Jason Allen 4.39

Notice that Allen was in the shuffle and had at least 8 yds head start on Wallace

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b9027c/Wallace-53-yard-TD

Besides speed, there's technique and coverage.
IMO, on that play, it wasn't really speed that torched Allen.
Watch the QB drop, the overall pass patterns, the coverage.
Chew on it a little; I'd like to hear your take (and anybody else's.)

he may of had a head start, but he had to slow down, what if it woulda been a curl route for the WR, Allen woulda never recovered, then after that wallace had a little more than allen. It was contested much better than i ever saw Jackson do this season.

76Texan
02-25-2011, 12:18 AM
he may of had a head start, but he had to slow down, what if it woulda been a curl route for the WR, Allen woulda never recovered, then after that wallace had a little more than allen. It was contested much better than i ever saw Jackson do this season.

1. Why did he have to slow down?
You said "what if it had been a curl route" and "it would be very difficult for Allen to recover".
All that is true!
If it was man coverage!

And that's why I saw it as more about technique and coverage rather than speed.

I apologize that the vids didn't show the whole field as the game film can.

It was a 3x1 pattern - three (3) receivers on one side and one (1) on Allen's side, plus the RB in a one-back set.

The Dolphins were dropping into a 3-deep, 4-underneath zone coverage.
(Strong safety came up, both CBs dropping back with the FS.)

The LCB "squezeed" his receiver inside (toward the safety) while Allen failed to do so (both CBs operated from the shuffle.)
What the LCB did was to get "more depth" to start with (while watching for the corner route).
Basically, he was able to prevent the receiver from getting to top speed.
(In John Madden's words "beating your man to the punch".)

On top of that, in such a pattern, the CBs are "on an island" on the deep route, because either the slot or the TE would run toward the middle, taking away the deep safety.

So why was it that the other CB (one of the two young ones that Allen lost the job to) can beat his man to the punch?
Because he played it right, not because he had more speed than Allen.
I think it was Vontae Davis (4.49 speed).
And the guy Allen lost his job to was Sean Smith (4.53 speed)

As reference, Jackson's speed was 4.48, same as McCourty.

The other thing about technique was that the Dolphins employ mostly the shuffle or bail and run. I don't think they use the back pedal much, if at all.
This (in some cases) can put the CBs in a disadvantage.

The thing with Allen is that he had some kind of hip surgery in college I think.
Probably why he cannot go with the back pedal.

Sean Smith, I already knew when I reviewed his tapes as we talked about him in the draft a couple years back, did not back pedal when he was at Utah.

At any rate, the fastest guy out of the trio that don't do the back pedal, lost his job.

2. Why do you have so much sympathy for Allen, a veteran CB, who was drafted higher than Jackson, when he (Allen) "failed" his responsibility on a deep route while criticizing Jackson when he (Jackson) was doing his job on an underneath coverage.
You worried about the curl route for Allen, well, it was not his responsibility.
You jumped on Jackson about the deep route, well, it was not his responsibility.
What can I say!?!

76Texan
02-25-2011, 12:59 AM
On a side note, why I think the shuffle can be a disadvantage for a CB.

On such a pattern like this one, IMO, Allen, if he operates from a backpedal, would try to force the receiver to the outside, where the CB can have the side line as the extra defender that he (the CB) wouldn't have if he turns the receiver inside.

(The middle safety is already taken away by either the slot receiver or the TE from the other side.)

Playing the shuffle with outside technique, especially in cover 3 like this, was a give-away to the QB and the receiver running the route.
They both know the deep middle is empty; a long bomb to the inside will either result in a TD, a long completion, or an incompletion (at the worst).

Technique and coverage scheme need to match for an optimum defense.
Or the guys playing the techniques need to carry them out well (in this case because it was what they were used to out of college.)

thunderkyss
02-25-2011, 08:11 AM
On a side note, why I think the shuffle can be a disadvantage for a CB.

Technique and coverage scheme need to match for an optimum defense.
Or the guys playing the techniques need to carry them out well (in this case because it was what they were used to out of college.)

I'm no expert, as I've never played CB. But I would think the only time you'd want to shuffle, is if you're expecting a short route with a 3 step drop. The idea would be to keep your eyes on the QB and attack the ball.

But over the last 6 years, it seemed as if our defense has had no "feel" for recognizing down & distance as it relates to other teams tendencies.

Like we never studied game film & applied what was learned to the field.

Mr teX
02-25-2011, 10:16 AM
I think Champ Bailey fooled many a coaches into believing that it is a mainstream technique that can be taught to every cb & its not true.

In high school i was never taught the shuffle. You backpedal until that 5 yard cushion is broken & once that happens you turn & run & get in the WR's "hip pocket". that probably was b/c we mostly ran Cover 3.

In Cover 2, we were just mainly taught to look out for the short routes in front of us & learned to "pass & recieve guys out of our zoned areas.

76Texan
02-26-2011, 12:43 PM
I think Champ Bailey fooled many a coaches into believing that it is a mainstream technique that can be taught to every cb & its not true.

In high school i was never taught the shuffle. You backpedal until that 5 yard cushion is broken & once that happens you turn & run & get in the WR's "hip pocket". that probably was b/c we mostly ran Cover 3.

In Cover 2, we were just mainly taught to look out for the short routes in front of us & learned to "pass & recieve guys out of our zoned areas.

I'm curious as to whether you guys played spot dropping (find your land mark, getting depth, break on the ball and not chasing routes) or pattern matching (read the most immediate threat in your zone in your drop; ie. zone early, man late)?

It sounds like you played spot dropping, didn't you?