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View Full Version : Tramon Williams was a Texan?


eriadoc
01-17-2011, 11:17 AM
I just heard that Tramon Williams (CB, GB) was signed as a UDFA by the Texans in Kubiak's first year. He was cut in preseason. Anyone know anything about how/if he played here, and maybe the first couple years as a Packer? Seems like a guy that was coached up.

Luv_ya_blue
01-17-2011, 11:19 AM
I just heard that Tramon Williams (CB, GB) was signed as a UDFA by the Texans in Kubiak's first year. He was cut in preseason. Anyone know anything about how/if he played here, and maybe the first couple years as a Packer? Seems like a guy that was coached up.

Saw too much potential...

PapaL
01-17-2011, 11:42 AM
Didn't fall?

Brisco_County
01-17-2011, 11:43 AM
They didn't like how closely he stayed on his man.

infantrycak
01-17-2011, 11:44 AM
Yeah he was here briefly after not being drafted. Don't recall anything about him standing out at the time. His first year in Green Bay he was a special teamer. Doesn't hurt him any that Woodson is on the other side.

JB
01-17-2011, 11:46 AM
The Packers picked him up in late Nov. off the streets because they had some injury issues.

ArlingtonTexan
01-17-2011, 11:46 AM
Just flipped through a few threads from that time and there was no fan excitement about the guy. a couple though he had some potnetial, but should be a practice squad guy. At that point Tramon williams did not look anything like Tramon williams. I know there will be revisionist stuff, but really he had no buzz around him.

GP
01-17-2011, 11:47 AM
They didn't like how closely he stayed on his man.

Yep. He was probably yelled at and told to get off the practice field.

5-yard cushion is the way to go. Everybody knows that.

eriadoc
01-17-2011, 11:48 AM
Yeah he was here briefly after not being drafted. Don't recall anything about him standing out at the time. His first year in Green Bay he was a special teamer. Doesn't hurt him any that Woodson is on the other side.

That's pretty much the norm for most CBs, though. If they aren't drafted in the first round or two, they're probably going to spend a while on STs while they learn. You have to be able to take talent from later rounds and develop it. Our coaches seem to take defensive talent from all rounds and make them worse.

And I still don't understand Antwaun Molden, but I digress.

Blake
01-17-2011, 11:48 AM
To be fair every team passed on him in the draft. And like Cak said he is playing opposite Woodson.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 11:48 AM
Yeah I've mentioned him in a few threads..lol..:)

To go from where he was to now I'd say both seeing something in him and coaching the kid up were the keys.

eriadoc
01-17-2011, 11:50 AM
To be fair every team passed on him in the draft. And like Cak said he is playing opposite Woodson.

Playing opposite Woodson means they're going to test him. He still has to make the plays when they do.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Maybe he sucks at playing zone coverage?

infantrycak
01-17-2011, 11:54 AM
Playing opposite Woodson means they're going to test him. He still has to make the plays when they do.

Sure but the point I was making is having a Woodson or Nnamdi caliber CB allows the D to scheme differently and for instance blitz more or shift coverage toward the other side. He definitely is making plays.

eriadoc
01-17-2011, 11:55 AM
To be fair every team passed on him in the draft. And like Cak said he is playing opposite Woodson.

To be fair, every team passed on Arian Foster in the draft, but Kubiak saw something there. We haven't had a coach on staff, defensive or otherwise it seems, that is capable of seeing something in guys like Tramon Williams before they are "Tramon Williams".

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:07 PM
Playing opposite Woodson means they're going to test him. He still has to make the plays when they do.


Before the game, Woodson was talking about some of the "coaching" he's been giving Tramon.

Very interesting... very good stuff.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2011, 12:12 PM
To be fair, every team passed on Arian Foster in the draft, but Kubiak saw something there. We haven't had a coach on staff, defensive or otherwise it seems, that is capable of seeing something in guys like Tramon Williams before they are "Tramon Williams".

Have there been any late round, UDFA pickups on defense that the Texans have turned into stars? The only one's that come to mind are Zac Diles (7th round pick) and possibly Glover Quin (4th round pick), but neither are all that great so far. Bernard Pollard was brought in here after being cut, but he's not all that spectacular beyond hitting people.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Have there been any late round, UDFA pickups on defense that the Texans have turned into stars? The only one's that come to mind are Zac Diles (7th round pick) and possibly Glover Quin (4th round pick), but neither are all that great so far. Bernard Pollard was brought in here after being cut, but he's not all that spectacular beyond hitting people.


Are there that many UDFAs in the league that become stars that we can actually count that against the Texans?

I mean, really?

ThaShark316
01-17-2011, 12:16 PM
For every Arian Foster and Tramon Williams there is an guy who got to camp and did nothing.

Everyone has this happen, but it's easy to pile on right now.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 12:18 PM
I'll try and ride the fence here....you can't expect every guy to pan out BUT

I honestly think the difference between top teams and the also rans is the ability to take guys like this, see something and coach it up. Put them in the right position to succeed. Raheem Brock also came up this post season. The guy was with the Texans after being in the league. Was known as a pass rusher. Texans needed one. He got 10 with Seattle this season. Again, I'm not going to fault them for everything but at some point on defense when you have 2 huge needs....DBs and pass rush...and guys like this get away..it is going to be magnified. Is that on talent evaluation or other teams willing to spend some time on the guy?Not sure.

MMQB was pointing out how the Steelers got key contributions from guys drafted the last 2 years. Just saying, it has to happen.

El Tejano
01-17-2011, 12:22 PM
Before the game, Woodson was talking about some of the "coaching" he's been giving Tramon.

Very interesting... very good stuff.

And that is why, if Houston wants to improve the secondary they got to go after one of these big name CBs. If they can't get Asomugha, they gotta go for Taylor, or Champ Bailey. The on field coaching they could give would be priceless. The one year we had a decent set of CBs was when Dunta played with Aaron Glenn. Get Kareem a solid mentor before we DavidCarr him.

ArlingtonTexan
01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
to speak broadly on UDFAs, while you can't specifically count on a particular UDFA to have a significant role, the numbers game that is the NFL requires teams to have at least a couple of those guys who make it and quite frankly make it big.

Example: assuuming a team hit on all of its top 4 rounds of draft picks and signs one big money free agent a year, it would take four plus years to fill out a starting roster. In short, teams have to find low cost players from somewhere late in the draft, UDFA, cut players, street FA, minor trades.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
I'll try and ride the fence here....you can't expect every guy to pan out BUT

I honestly think the difference between top teams and the also rans is the ability to take guys like this, see something and coach it up. Put them in the right position to succeed. Raheem Brock also came up this post season. The guy was with the Texans after being in the league. Was known as a pass rusher. Texans needed one. He got 10 with Seattle this season. Again, I'm not going to fault them for everything but at some point on defense when you have 2 huge needs....DBs and pass rush...and guys like this get away..it is going to be magnified. Is that on talent evaluation or other teams willing to spend some time on the guy?Not sure.

MMQB was pointing out how the Steelers got key contributions from guys drafted the last 2 years. Just saying, it has to happen.

Was Brock a Texan, or did he just come in for a visit?

Did the Texans' coaching staff feel that he couldn't help the team?

Or did Rick Smith fail to sign a player of need?

The thing about Tramon.... heck we've got scrubs on the team, I think everyone of our DBs saw some time in a game this year. At that time in his career (4 years ago) he most likely wasn't the guy he is today.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:39 PM
to speak broadly on UDFAs, while you can't specifically count on a particular UDFA to have a significant role, the numbers game that is the NFL requires teams to have at least a couple of those guys who make it and quite frankly make it big.

Example: assuuming a team hit on all of its top 4 rounds of draft picks and signs one big money free agent a year, it would take four plus years to fill out a starting roster. In short, teams have to find low cost players from somewhere late in the draft, UDFA, cut players, street FA, minor trades.

So you believe every team has an UDFA starting somewhere on their roster?

I find that hard to believe.

Interesting, but hard to believe.

eriadoc
01-17-2011, 12:46 PM
So you believe every team has an UDFA starting somewhere on their roster?

I find that hard to believe.

Interesting, but hard to believe.

It wouldn't surprise me, to be honest. Maybe not UDFA, but 6th and 7th rounders are essentially the same caliber player.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 12:55 PM
Was Brock a Texan, or did he just come in for a visit?

Did the Texans' coaching staff feel that he couldn't help the team?

Or did Rick Smith fail to sign a player of need?

The thing about Tramon.... heck we've got scrubs on the team, I think everyone of our DBs saw some time in a game this year. At that time in his career (4 years ago) he most likely wasn't the guy he is today.

I'm sorry, you are right...they worked him out. I just remember LZ laughing about it because he was joking they played against him twice a year and then worked him out and couldn't figure out he was a pass rusher.

I think when it comes to guys like Tramon you have to look at who they thought was more important back then....I'm not sure. Someone said a USC guy..John Walker.

Honestly, I'm not going to act like I know the process. It just seems the good teams hit on alot more of these guys. I'm assuming that is evaluation.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 01:10 PM
Honestly, I'm not going to act like I know the process. It just seems the good teams hit on alot more of these guys. I'm assuming that is evaluation.

Winning, I think, makes it easy for a team to have that appearance. Making plays... big plays, in play-off wins help too.

But at the same time;
Tyrone Culver
Will Blockman
Aaron Rouse
Pat Lee
Brandon Underwood
Morgan Burnett........

All DBs drafted by the Packers since 2006.

Hell, I thought the Cowboys hit a home run with Scandrick & Ball....

this year, not so much.

eriadoc
01-17-2011, 01:16 PM
The Bears have J'Marcus Webb starting at RT (7th round), Israel Idonije at DE (UDFA), Toeaina at DT (6th round journeyman), and probably a few more on STs/backups.

The Packers have Scott Wells at C (7th round, 4 picks away from last), their FB is a 6th round LB from Boise St., one of their OLBs is a UDFA and one ILB is a 6th rounder.

The Steelers' two guards are a 6th rounder and a UDFA. Their FB is a 7th rounder. Their RDE is a 7th rounder. James Harrison is a UDFA. FS Ryan Clark is a UDFA.

Jets starting RG is a UDFA. Starting DT is a UDFA. They have a 6th or 7th rounder or two.

You have to get production from less than premium talent.

GP
01-17-2011, 01:25 PM
The Bears have J'Marcus Webb starting at RT (7th round)

From MY university: West Texas A&M University. A Division II team.

Go Buffs!!!

www.gobuffsgo.com (http://www.gobuffsgo.com)

Our main rival: Abilene Christian University (ACU). Johnny Knox (ACU player) on the Bears, and then there's Bernard Scott (also from ACU) on the Bengals. The Bears have been drafting Lone Star Conference players (Webb and Knox) for a few years now. Dominic Rhodes (Colts) was a Midwestern State University player, of the NCAA Division II Lone Star Conference. Keith Null (WTAMU) played QB for the Rams last year, but was awwwwful. Charly Martin, a WR out of WTAMU is on the Panthers roster.

Lots of Division II players from my area are landing on NFL teams recently. Pretty cool.

infantrycak
01-17-2011, 01:34 PM
The Bears have J'Marcus Webb starting at RT (7th round), Israel Idonije at DE (UDFA), Toeaina at DT (6th round journeyman), and probably a few more on STs/backups.

The Packers have Scott Wells at C (7th round, 4 picks away from last), their FB is a 6th round LB from Boise St., one of their OLBs is a UDFA and one ILB is a 6th rounder.

The Steelers' two guards are a 6th rounder and a UDFA. Their FB is a 7th rounder. Their RDE is a 7th rounder. James Harrison is a UDFA. FS Ryan Clark is a UDFA.

Jets starting RG is a UDFA. Starting DT is a UDFA. They have a 6th or 7th rounder or two.

You have to get production from less than premium talent.

True. Folks need to consider the time period as well. Harrison didn't start until his fifth year except when someone was injured. Williams became a starter in this his fifth year as well.

The Texans have gotten some production as well. Leach and Foster were both undrafted. Kevin Walter 7th, Brisiel UDFA, Diles 7th.

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 02:08 PM
The Bears have J'Marcus Webb starting at RT (7th round), Israel Idonije at DE (UDFA), Toeaina at DT (6th round journeyman), and probably a few more on STs/backups.

The Packers have Scott Wells at C (7th round, 4 picks away from last), their FB is a 6th round LB from Boise St., one of their OLBs is a UDFA and one ILB is a 6th rounder.

The Steelers' two guards are a 6th rounder and a UDFA. Their FB is a 7th rounder. Their RDE is a 7th rounder. James Harrison is a UDFA. FS Ryan Clark is a UDFA.

Jets starting RG is a UDFA. Starting DT is a UDFA. They have a 6th or 7th rounder or two.

You have to get production from less than premium talent.

ridiculous

Section516
01-17-2011, 02:11 PM
ridiculous



Harrison spent two years on and off the practice squad for the Steelers, being released three times, and was also briefly on the active roster towards the end of the 2002 season, playing only special teams.

He was signed by Baltimore in late 2003, then sent to the Rhein Fire of NFL Europe, but eventually cut by the Ravens.[2] After being cut for a fourth time, Harrison considered not playing anymore

Shortly after, he was signed a fourth time by the Steelers during training camp in 2004 after Clark Haggans sustained an injury in an offseason weightlifting accident..


Source:Wiki, fwiw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harrison_%28American_football%29


That is pretty insane..

El Tejano
01-17-2011, 02:17 PM
Well noone was crying when we let him go right? I call it even.

HTown2ATX
01-17-2011, 02:27 PM
Harrison spent two years on and off the practice squad for the Steelers, being released three times, and was also briefly on the active roster towards the end of the 2002 season, playing only special teams.

He was signed by Baltimore in late 2003, then sent to the Rhein Fire of NFL Europe, but eventually cut by the Ravens.[2] After being cut for a fourth time, Harrison considered not playing anymore

Shortly after, he was signed a fourth time by the Steelers during training camp in 2004 after Clark Haggans sustained an injury in an offseason weightlifting accident..


Source:Wiki, fwiw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harrison_%28American_football%29


That is pretty insane..

Yeah, that's true apparently. My dad is die a hard Steelers guy from Pittsburgh and he has told me this story a couple times about Harrison.

So, to wiki's credit, this is legit...must not have been posted by "snake" this time around lol.

In all seriousness though.....I can't be too pissed about this one miss with Williams. He was a no name, UDFA and there are not a ton of dudes like Harrison and Arian Foster with rags to riches stories like that in the league.

I mean, I still view this coaching staff as a bunch of bumbling fools anyway too so, not exactly news here they missed on a guy..... :gun:

:kubepalm:

J_R
01-17-2011, 03:24 PM
Was Brock a Texan, or did he just come in for a visit?

Did the Texans' coaching staff feel that he couldn't help the team?

Or did Rick Smith fail to sign a player of need?

The thing about Tramon.... heck we've got scrubs on the team, I think everyone of our DBs saw some time in a game this year. At that time in his career (4 years ago) he most likely wasn't the guy he is today.

Texans brought in Raheem Brock, James Wyche, and DeWayne White for workouts/tryouts(Aug 11). Texans opted for James Wyche(Aug 16). Brock signed with the Titans(Aug 12). Brock later waived on roster cutdown day.(Sep 4) Brock then signed with the Seahawks two days later(Sep 6).

PHAROAH
01-17-2011, 03:46 PM
Huge mistake this guy is turning into one of the better corners in the NFL.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 04:23 PM
True. Folks need to consider the time period as well. Harrison didn't start until his fifth year except when someone was injured. Williams became a starter in this his fifth year as well.

The Texans have gotten some production as well. Leach and Foster were both undrafted. Kevin Walter 7th, Brisiel UDFA, Diles 7th.

Heck, they kept cutting Harrison...

It's a wonder no one else picked him up.

I mean with hindsight & all.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 04:29 PM
Huge mistake this guy is turning into one of the better corners in the NFL.


We'll see next year, when he's got that rep, & teams start planning for him.

ArlingtonTexan
01-17-2011, 05:17 PM
So you believe every team has an UDFA starting somewhere on their roster?

I find that hard to believe.

Interesting, but hard to believe.

Someone on another message board I am regular on found that nearly every Superbowl champ has at least one UDFA (since we went to seven rounds) starter and most of the time that UDFA was an above average starter, not a MIke Breisel (no offense meant), but an Arian Foster.

It would be misleading to use the closing day rosters because of injuries and such, but even with opeing day roster I would say at least 25 (I would bet all 32) are starting a least one guy who was not drafted.

Remember not counting kickers and long snappers, a team with normal draft picks (7 rounds) and 1 major free agent siging would take 6 years of no misses in order to get to 48 of 53 man roster. Again, simple math says teams have to get contributions from other ..i.e. cheaper.

Final example from this year, the Patriots had approx. 20 players who were originally UDFAs on the roster sunday. This is per a Pats fan I did not double check.

Dutchrudder
01-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Someone on another message board I am regular on found that nearly every Superbowl champ has at least one UDFA (since we went to seven rounds) starter and most of the time that UDFA was an above average starter, not a MIke Breisel (no offense meant), but I Arain Foster.

It would be misleading to use the closing day rosters because of injuries and such, but even with opeing day roster I would say at least 25 (I would bet all 32) are starting a least one guy who was not drafted.

Remember not counting kickers and long snappers, a team with normal draft picks (7 rounds) and 1 major free agent siging would take 6 years of no misses in order to get to 48 of 53 man roster. Again, simple math says teams have to get contributions from other ..i.e. cheaper.

Final example from this year, the Patriots had approx. 20 players who were originally UDFAs on the roster sunday. This is per a Pats fan I did not double check.

They mentioned that during the game, but they didn't say starters, so I don't know how much of an impact they have beyond special teams. The crazy thing is how many picks the Patriots have had over the last few years, but they still get 20 UDFAs on the team. Must be missing on a lot of picks, or maybe they just don't hang on to people that long waiting for someone to turn into a Tramon Williams. I would love to see the numbers of UDFA that make the teams at the beginning of the season. I'm sure injuries have a large effect on the number of UDFAs that make teams towards the end of the season.

ArlingtonTexan
01-17-2011, 05:43 PM
They mentioned that during the game, but they didn't say starters, so I don't know how much of an impact they have beyond special teams. The crazy thing is how many picks the Patriots have had over the last few years, but they still get 20 UDFAs on the team. Must be missing on a lot of picks, or maybe they just don't hang on to people that long waiting for someone to turn into a Tramon Williams. I would love to see the numbers of UDFA that make the teams at the beginning of the season. I'm sure injuries have a large effect on the number of UDFAs that make teams towards the end of the season.

I know without looking that both starting and top reserve RB fit into the catergory and Welker were not drafted (but again he was traded for so that would be misleading)

DocBar
01-17-2011, 08:42 PM
Yep. He was probably yelled at and told to get off the practice field.

5-yard cushion is the way to go. Everybody knows that.

5 yd cushion? I guess everything IS bigger in Texas. I saw 8-10 yds all the effing time. We hardly ever even attempted to disrupt timing plays at the LOS. Maybe that's why they always worked. Why run for 3-4 yds when you are gauranteed 6-10 per pass play?That's so easy, a Texan should've figured it out.

DocBar
01-17-2011, 08:44 PM
So you believe every team has an UDFA starting somewhere on their roster?

I find that hard to believe.

Interesting, but hard to believe.

Arian Foster would be a good one to answer that question.

BigBull17
01-18-2011, 07:50 AM
For every Arian Foster and Tramon Williams there are 30 guys who got to camp and did nothing.

Everyone has this happen, but it's easy to pile on right now.

Fixed it. Most of the time they arent drafted because they aren't that good. It's very rare one of these guys do what they have done.

GP
01-18-2011, 09:45 AM
5 yd cushion? I guess everything IS bigger in Texas. I saw 8-10 yds all the effing time. We hardly ever even attempted to disrupt timing plays at the LOS. Maybe that's why they always worked. Why run for 3-4 yds when you are gauranteed 6-10 per pass play?That's so easy, a Texan should've figured it out.

I used to think it was 8-10 yards, too. But if you watch closely, count the hash marks out there. It's 5 yards.

But hey, 5 yards is FIFTEEN FEET which is a crazy amount of space to give up. I only saw bump coverage toward the end of the season, and only rarely on downs where we brought a blitz and were showing blitz all the way.

The one exception was the first Titans game, where it was Rusty Smith's first start and we pretty much played up on the WRs the whole game.

HOU-TEX
01-18-2011, 10:01 AM
I used to think it was 8-10 yards, too. But if you watch closely, count the hash marks out there. It's 5 yards.

But hey, 15 yards is FIFTEEN FEET which is a crazy amount of space to give up. I only saw bump coverage toward the end of the season, and only rarely on downs where we brought a blitz and were showing blitz all the way.

The one exception was the first Titans game, where it was Rusty Smith's first start and we pretty much played up on the WRs the whole game.

:thinking:

HoustonFrog
01-18-2011, 10:09 AM
Fixed it. Most of the time they arent drafted because they aren't that good. It's very rare one of these guys do what they have done.

Here is my issue with this just thinking aloud.....you don't know unless you try and develop them. Each team has needs. Since Kubiak got here(and before) the 2 main ones have been DBs and guys who can rush the passer. Why not keep a guy with potential like this instead of the USC guy I mentioned who ened up a preacher somewhere or something. Why not keep him over the 6 TEs when TE and your offense aren't the issue? Alot of other teams might have passed but they also might have had their own guys they were already developing or it wasn't a need because they had vets. It's not as simple as...everyone passed also so we get a pass. It is like bringing Raheem Brock in. As LZ said, you played the guy twice a year. You worked him out. What didn't you see that made Seattle turn him loose for 10 sacks? The usually response would be "Philly cut him too." Well Philly wasn't hurting with guys because they were 10th in sacks this year. That is my issue...are the Texans getting the most out of the talent evaluation phase..."here is a guy we can work with."

TheCD
01-18-2011, 10:16 AM
:thinking:

I think what he's saying is 15 yards is 15 steps away from the defender, and not that he forgot how to convert numbers...

drs23
01-18-2011, 10:18 AM
:thinking:

HOU-TEX, I see you thinking. When you get a handle on this new fangled math, can ya get back with me? :kitten:

GP
01-18-2011, 10:44 AM
HOU-TEX, I see you thinking. When you get a handle on this new fangled math, can ya get back with me? :kitten:

Man, I flubbed the numbers on that one!

I fixed it. I meant to say 5 yards is 15 feet. LOL.

gary
01-18-2011, 11:00 AM
With players like Tramon or any player in the league for that matter is you just never know. It is harder to stick with a draft pick or an UDFA then it is to sign a player like Brock who has pretty good track record around the league rather than no NFL background at all. Was it the coaching here? It looks that way now. But, who knew back then? Surely none of us knew all sports are gambles as a matter of fact most of life is a risk. If he was not being coached properly here then he wasn't ever going to be any good with the Texans. I am not defending the coaching staff here because I do think they have missed out on a few well known players like Brock and a few others. Did they give up on Williams too fast? Now they know they did but it is too late and we don't know if he'll even keep up his great play. The only reason he got his chance in Green Bay is because of injuries and he is playing with some of the greatest players in the entire league so that's a plus. Good for him. Bottom line is coaching is a lot harder than it appears to be.

BigBull17
01-18-2011, 01:11 PM
Here is my issue with this just thinking aloud.....you don't know unless you try and develop them. Each team has needs. Since Kubiak got here(and before) the 2 main ones have been DBs and guys who can rush the passer. Why not keep a guy with potential like this instead of the USC guy I mentioned who ened up a preacher somewhere or something. Why not keep him over the 6 TEs when TE and your offense aren't the issue? Alot of other teams might have passed but they also might have had their own guys they were already developing or it wasn't a need because they had vets. It's not as simple as...everyone passed also so we get a pass. It is like bringing Raheem Brock in. As LZ said, you played the guy twice a year. You worked him out. What didn't you see that made Seattle turn him loose for 10 sacks? The usually response would be "Philly cut him too." Well Philly wasn't hurting with guys because they were 10th in sacks this year. That is my issue...are the Texans getting the most out of the talent evaluation phase..."here is a guy we can work with."

I agree with this, but I'm not gonna kill a guy for missing out on an UDFA who becomes good 5 years later.

gary
01-18-2011, 01:38 PM
I agree with this, but I'm not gonna kill a guy for missing out on an UDFA who becomes good 5 years later.That's just it. How long do you wait on a player? That is very hard to judge when some one else out there might be better or they fit in better at the time.

GuerillaBlack
01-19-2011, 08:10 AM
I'll try and ride the fence here....you can't expect every guy to pan out BUT

I honestly think the difference between top teams and the also rans is the ability to take guys like this, see something and coach it up. Put them in the right position to succeed. Raheem Brock also came up this post season. The guy was with the Texans after being in the league. Was known as a pass rusher. Texans needed one. He got 10 with Seattle this season. Again, I'm not going to fault them for everything but at some point on defense when you have 2 huge needs....DBs and pass rush...and guys like this get away..it is going to be magnified. Is that on talent evaluation or other teams willing to spend some time on the guy?Not sure.

MMQB was pointing out how the Steelers got key contributions from guys drafted the last 2 years. Just saying, it has to happen.

I'm putting it on coaching. The Texans obviously don't have good coaching. Though, everyone passed on Arian Foster. We're lucky Arian picked Houston has his team of choice to sign to though.

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 08:21 AM
I'm putting it on coaching. The Texans obviously don't have good coaching. Though, everyone passed on Arian Foster. We're lucky Arian picked Houston has his team of choice to sign to though.

I find it amazing that we give credit to Fischer for making something out of Babin or Capers for making something out of Tramon.

But we're lucky to have Arian. Nevermind that Derrick Ward & Steve Slaton averaged about 5.0 ypc.... never mind Leach, Daniels, Walter, Brisiel, Myers, Dressen, etc.... Never mind AJ has had his best seasons ever with Kubiak (he's one of two players to have back to back 1500 yard seasons, & if it weren't for his ankle he'd have done it again), or that Schaub belongs in the same conversation with Manning or Brees, or Rivers... that's all on the players.

Fischer: Defensive coach
Capers: Defensive coach
Kubiak: Piece of Shit

:kubepalm:

GP
01-19-2011, 08:25 AM
It's FISHER.

Not Fischer.

Are you doing this as a joke, and I missed it, or what?

I can understand botching Belichick. But F-I-S-H-E-R? C'mon, TK.

:invisiblefacepalm:

eriadoc
01-19-2011, 08:26 AM
I find it amazing that we give credit to Fischer for making something out of Babin or Capers for making something out of Tramon.

But we're lucky to have Arian. Nevermind that Derrick Ward & Steve Slaton averaged about 5.0 ypc.... never mind Leach, Daniels, Walter, Brisiel, Myers, Dressen, etc.... Never mind AJ has had his best seasons ever with Kubiak (he's one of two players to have back to back 1500 yard seasons, & if it weren't for his ankle he'd have done it again), or that Schaub belongs in the same conversation with Manning or Brees, or Rivers... that's all on the players.

Fischer: Defensive coach
Capers: Defensive coach
Kubiak: Piece of Shit

:kubepalm:

Kubiak finds Tramon Williams on offense quite a bit. He just has no skill at evaluating defensive talent or evidently in hiring people that do. I give Kubiak lots of credit. He's one helluva offensive coordinator.

HoustonFrog
01-19-2011, 08:26 AM
That's just it. How long do you wait on a player? That is very hard to judge when some one else out there might be better or they fit in better at the time.

I agree with both of you that there might be time limitation but I also think that if you are club that keeps hanging on to Petey Faggins and others for years, why not this kid. They suck and the other guy might actually have some talent. If that makes sense.

I find it amazing that we give credit to Fischer for making something out of Babin or Capers for making something out of Tramon.

But we're lucky to have Arian. Nevermind that Derrick Ward & Steve Slaton averaged about 5.0 ypc.... never mind Leach, Daniels, Walter, Brisiel, Myers, Dressen, etc.... Never mind AJ has had his best seasons ever with Kubiak (he's one of two players to have back to back 1500 yard seasons, & if it weren't for his ankle he'd have done it again), or that Schaub belongs in the same conversation with Manning or Brees, or Rivers... that's all on the players.

Fischer: Defensive coach
Capers: Defensive coach
Kubiak: Piece of Shit

:kubepalm:

You are all over the place here. Alot of the names mentioned above were drafted higher or brought in from other teams where they contributed at least some. They are also offensive guys. But what about having only having 4 real starters in all their drafts and the FA busts that were prevalent for awhile. If we are talking defense I'm not really sure where the diamonds in the rough are.

I don't want to go into tangent land here so I'll just say that I think that there has been issues with evaluating/coaching up talent here. Whether that is Smith, Kubiak or other position coaches.

GP
01-19-2011, 08:27 AM
I find it amazing that we give credit to Fischer for making something out of Babin or Capers for making something out of Tramon.

But we're lucky to have Arian. Nevermind that Derrick Ward & Steve Slaton averaged about 5.0 ypc.... never mind Leach, Daniels, Walter, Brisiel, Myers, Dressen, etc.... Never mind AJ has had his best seasons ever with Kubiak (he's one of two players to have back to back 1500 yard seasons, & if it weren't for his ankle he'd have done it again), or that Schaub belongs in the same conversation with Manning or Brees, or Rivers... that's all on the players.

Fischer: Defensive coach
Capers: Defensive coach
Kubiak: Piece of Shit

:kubepalm:

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

...or that Schaub belongs in the same conversation with Manning or Brees, or Rivers

Huh? :mcnugget:

Slow down there. Re-think that one.

eriadoc
01-19-2011, 08:32 AM
I agree with both of you that there might be time limitation but I also think that if you are club that keeps hanging on to Petey Faggins and others for years, why not this kid. They suck and the other guy might actually have some talent. If that makes sense.

Yeah, it's one thing if they let the guy go and the ones they kept turned out to be a player - not even a better player, just a player. But it's kind of annoying to see a guy get lost in the shuffle and then get coached up somewhere else. It makes you wonder why our team doesn't coach up players. Instead, we keep guys like Antwaun Molden around and go out and sign guys like Jacques Reeves when everyone said he sucked. Then just cut him in favor of a bunch of rookies that can't play. I just don't get it. It's kind of like Babin. He never got a fair shot here under Kubiak and he was drafted for a position he didn't (couldn't, evidently) play. When he finally got some NFL coaching at the position he's supposed to play, along with a little time to develop, it turns out that he can play. Go figure. Why did our coaches miss that?

The hindsight on Tramon Williams isn't logical, I grant that. But neither are any of the defensive moves the Texans have made in the secondary.

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 08:56 AM
Kubiak finds Tramon Williams on offense quite a bit. He just has no skill at evaluating defensive talent or evidently in hiring people that do. I give Kubiak lots of credit. He's one helluva offensive coordinator.


& F-I-S-H-E-R (that can't be right) has a problem finding Jason Babin's on offense.

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 08:58 AM
I agree with both of you that there might be time limitation but I also think that if you are club that keeps hanging on to Petey Faggins and others for years, why not this kid. They suck and the other guy might actually have some talent. If that makes sense.


I got nothing for this.....

What's Molden doing here again?

:kubepalm:

BigBull17
01-19-2011, 09:13 AM
I agree with both of you that there might be time limitation but I also think that if you are club that keeps hanging on to Petey Faggins and others for years, why not this kid. They suck and the other guy might actually have some talent. If that makes sense.



You are all over the place here. Alot of the names mentioned above were drafted higher or brought in from other teams where they contributed at least some. They are also offensive guys. But what about having only having 4 real starters in all their drafts and the FA busts that were prevalent for awhile. If we are talking defense I'm not really sure where the diamonds in the rough are.

I don't want to go into tangent land here so I'll just say that I think that there has been issues with evaluating/coaching up talent here. Whether that is Smith, Kubiak or other position coaches.

This I'll get on board with. Then he drops Reeves when he should have kept him. Too inconsistant. Trots McUtah out there week after week despite the fact he has coverage skills like me(as a former OT, that's bad). Refuses to make any kind of move. I hate us.

BigBull17
01-19-2011, 09:15 AM
I got nothing for this.....

What's Molden doing here again?

:kubepalm:

Moulden. I forgot about him. He was a big waste of space this year. Has he ever played NFL CB? Did he get in anywhere but special teams?

eriadoc
01-19-2011, 09:16 AM
& F-I-S-H-E-R (that can't be right) has a problem finding Jason Babin's on offense.

1.) I have never thought Fisher was a particularly good coach.

2.) I don't care about Fisher, because he doesn't coach the Texans.

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 09:21 AM
This I'll get on board with. Then he drops Reeves when he should have kept him. Too inconsistant. Trots McUtah out there week after week despite the fact he has coverage skills like me(as a former OT, that's bad).

McUtah outplayed Reeves in 2009....

Refuses to make any kind of move. I hate us.

How many CBs have we drafted since 2005?
How did Wilson get on this team?
How did Pollard get on this team?
How did Payhma (sp) get on this team?
How did Jason Allen get on this team.....

"any kind" huh??

The Pencil Neck
01-19-2011, 09:49 AM
I'm putting it on coaching. The Texans obviously don't have good coaching. Though, everyone passed on Arian Foster. We're lucky Arian picked Houston has his team of choice to sign to though.

Rick Smith offered him a larger-than-normal UDFA contract to get him in here.

The Pencil Neck
01-19-2011, 09:54 AM
Kubiak finds Tramon Williams on offense quite a bit. He just has no skill at evaluating defensive talent or evidently in hiring people that do. I give Kubiak lots of credit. He's one helluva offensive coordinator.

I made that point in another thread.

With Kubiak, on offense, you don't need a lot of high draft choices for him to coach them up and mold them into a good unit. But even from his first year, the idea was to draft high on the defensive side to offset the fact that the defensive coaches needed help.

We didn't have the defensive coaches that were able to mold a unit like Kubiak did with the offense. And that's on Smithiak. That's why they should have been fired.

But now, with Wade, maybe... MAYBE... we've got someone on the defensive side who can coach those guys up and turn them into a unit to be proud of.

I'm just going to try to remain skeptical until I see something good on the field.

The Pencil Neck
01-19-2011, 09:58 AM
I agree with both of you that there might be time limitation but I also think that if you are club that keeps hanging on to Petey Faggins and others for years, why not this kid. They suck and the other guy might actually have some talent. If that makes sense.


The problem is determining which guys to keep and which guys to ditch. This isn't just a problem with the Texans. This is a problem for everybody.

Most players just don't get it. Regardless of how talented they are. Sometimes, the less talented guy works harder and ends up the better player because of that discipline and dedication.

I'm not too upset about defensive guys like Tramon Williams coming in here and not making the team and then going somewhere else and getting it together. Because at least it means that our scouting department saw the talent and brought the guy in. It's on coaches that have already been fired that they didn't see the talent and develop it.

drs23
01-19-2011, 10:03 AM
Rick Smith offered him a larger-than-normal UDFA contract to get him in here.

TPN, gotta link? What's the norm and how much larger? I read (here I think) he's making 550K this season?

BigBull17
01-19-2011, 10:24 AM
McUtah outplayed Reeves in 2009....


How many CBs have we drafted since 2005?
How did Wilson get on this team?
How did Pollard get on this team?
How did Payhma (sp) get on this team?
How did Jason Allen get on this team.....

"any kind" huh??

Sorry, I should have clarified any kind of USEFUL move. Well, they did hire Frank Bush after interviewing a whooping...ONE guy for th job. Reeves gets no love, but he was one of our best CB's. He can't find the ball, but he can actually cover people. Wilson was a stop gap we decided was a long term move. Pollard needs a good FS paired with him to let him free flow, but we decided he was a deep cover safety. PAymah didn't do anything for us, so next. Allen was dumped, scooped up from the scrap heap, and sadly was our best CB. We blew a whole season on a shitty secondary, awful play calling on defense, and sloppy inconsistent play on offense. But rest well, we won't have a "drop off" by hiring a coach who is an actual winner...

:kubepalm::wadepalm:

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 10:29 AM
TPN, gotta link? What's the norm and how much larger? I read (here I think) he's making 550K this season?

If I remember right, we also offered 2 years, where the normal UDFA contract is only 1 year.

The Pencil Neck
01-19-2011, 10:46 AM
TPN, gotta link? What's the norm and how much larger? I read (here I think) he's making 550K this season?

No link, just memory. If you search on Texans Talk around the time of the 2009 draft you can probably find it. We talked about it when he was signed.

Normal UDFA contracts are 1 year contracts. Arian was offered a 2 year contract.

JCTexan
01-19-2011, 11:37 AM
No link, just memory. If you search on Texans Talk around the time of the 2009 draft you can probably find it. We talked about it when he was signed.

Normal UDFA contracts are 1 year contracts. Arian was offered a 2 year contract.

I did a little searching. Here's a post from 2009 about it:

According to John McClain of Chron.com, the Texans lured Foster to Houston by offering him a two-year contract, which is very rare for a free agent, but they must feel strongly about him. This is likely one reason why they were able to beat out the Saints for his services.

gary
01-19-2011, 07:24 PM
I'll be honest I think the Texans felt like Dunte was going to be their guy in the secondary and he was untill the Raiders game in 2007 one of the best CB's in team history right next to Arron Glenn.

infantrycak
01-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Baldinger broke down some of Tramon Williams' plays earlier tonight. This may be his instinct or the way he is coached but he gambles a ton. On each of the plays he broke down it was successful because they were doing a highlight on him but his gambling stood out. For instance Williams was Gonzalez in the Atlanta game, Gonzalez released inside of Williams basically driving straight up the field. Williams started with his shoulders turned to the inside of the field. While Gonzalez was still running straight Williams swiveled his whole body to the sideline and began breaking that direction before Gonzalez started his break in that direction. If Gonzalez continued straight or broke to the inside he was wide open.

thunderkyss
01-19-2011, 08:26 PM
Baldinger broke down some of Tramon Williams' plays earlier tonight. This may be his instinct or the way he is coached but he gambles a ton. On each of the plays he broke down it was successful because they were doing a highlight on him but his gambling stood out. For instance Williams was Gonzalez in the Atlanta game, Gonzalez released inside of Williams basically driving straight up the field. Williams started with his shoulders turned to the inside of the field. While Gonzalez was still running straight Williams swiveled his whole body to the sideline and began breaking that direction before Gonzalez started his break in that direction. If Gonzalez continued straight or broke to the inside he was wide open.

I do like the show... & I respect their breakdowns. No doubt, they know more than I do, about how teams prepare for games.

But I think play recognition & instincts might make those "gambles" less risky. How many times has Atlanta ran that play? Is it their goto plays for a particular situation?

It's possible (I have no way of knowing for sure) that the Packers were looking & waiting for that play.

chicagotexan2
01-20-2011, 01:40 PM
I just heard that Tramon Williams (CB, GB) was signed as a UDFA by the Texans in Kubiak's first year. He was cut in preseason. Anyone know anything about how/if he played here, and maybe the first couple years as a Packer? Seems like a guy that was coached up.

He couldn't make the conversion to play TE.

infantrycak
01-20-2011, 03:56 PM
But I think play recognition & instincts might make those "gambles" less risky. How many times has Atlanta ran that play? Is it their goto plays for a particular situation?

I lumped play recognition into coaching. If you saw the play I was talking about with Gonzalez and it was play recognition/tendencies then the coaches were taking a huge gamble. Gonzalez would have gone for 30 down the middle of the field.

J_R
01-20-2011, 05:58 PM
Tramon Williams named to Pro Bowl.:clap:

gary
01-20-2011, 07:46 PM
Tramon Williams named to Pro Bowl.:clap:
Coaches vote or because of an injury?

J_R
01-20-2011, 11:37 PM
Replacing Asante Samuel

HoustonFrog
01-21-2011, 07:15 AM
Funny. Justice tweeted Schefter and this is the response from Schefter

https://twitter.com/#!/AdamSchefter


AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Didn't realize this. One word: Wow. RT @richardjustice: Cut by the Texans! RT Green Bay CB Tramon Williams added to NFC Pro Bowl team.
13 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HoustonFrog
01-21-2011, 11:03 AM
And as to the question of coaching and personnel, ex Oiler Sean Jones has an opinion

http://twitter.com/#!/LanceZierlein

LanceZierlein Lance Zierlein
Sean Jones: "whoever is picking the personnel for the Texans is doing a piss-poor job. They haven't done a good job at all"

gary
01-21-2011, 12:54 PM
He won't go to the Probowl if the Packers win the game on Sunday.