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View Full Version : I thought Schaub had poor deep ball accuracy?


m5kwatts
01-13-2011, 03:42 PM
In addition to strong numbers on deep throws down the middle, Matt Schaub had similar success on deep throws to either side of the field. The Texans ranked fourth in completion percentage (48 percent) on deep left throws and third (50) on deep right passes.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/14544102

Having a cannon for an arm means nothing in the NFL people.

BorrowMe
01-13-2011, 03:46 PM
Nobody is denying Matt's deep ball accuracy, it's his arm strength that's lacking.

m5kwatts
01-13-2011, 03:47 PM
Nobody is denying Matt's deep ball accuracy, it's his arm strength that's lacking.

Why is the strength important if the accuracy is there?

BorrowMe
01-13-2011, 03:49 PM
Why is the strength important if the accuracy is there?

Because you can throw it where you receiver is at but can you throw it hard enough that you hit him in stride?

thunderkyss
01-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Why is the strength important if the accuracy is there?


You know how many touchdowns we missed out on because his arm wasn't strong enough?

Me niether, but there were more than a few.

Gotta take the good with the bad. If he'd learn to anticipate (or trust) our receivers getting open, he could throw the ball earlier & it would be the same difference. He needs to get the ball ahead of the receivers when they've beat the deep coverage.

DexmanC
01-13-2011, 04:13 PM
Why is the strength important if the accuracy is there?

So what if the receiver could sit on the field, and finish a Vic & Anthony's
steak dinner before the ball comes down. He's still gonna catch it, right?

ThaShark316
01-13-2011, 06:24 PM
Don't make me go to the footage again.

Corrosion
01-13-2011, 06:31 PM
Schaubs recievers have made him look good on many poor throws down the field this season .... I can think of several where the reciever came back to the ball , slowed to wait for it or simply beat a defender making a catch.

With many of those throws - had they been on target they would have gone for scores rather than just long completions.


What he does is give the reciever a chance to make that play ....

JB
01-13-2011, 06:47 PM
Schaubs recievers have made him look good on many poor throws down the field this season .... I can think of several where the reciever came back to the ball , slowed to wait for it or simply beat a defender making a catch.

With many of those throws - had they been on target they would have gone for scores rather than just long completions.


What he does is give the receiver a chance to make that play ....

And that's what you want over the long haul.

CretorFrigg
01-13-2011, 06:55 PM
And that's what you want over the long haul.

No, Corrosion is correct. You want Schaub to hit the receiver in stride. Many of those huge gains could've been TDs. I can't even think of a play last season twhen Schaub was able to do that. I still believe Schaub played with an injury that the Texans didn't disclose to the public. He simply wasn't the same man from two years ago.

His passes wobbled and fluttered their way to the receivers, which makes him prone to interceptions. Sometimes, you need to sling the ball towards the receiver right before he makes his cut back. Any mistakes and mistiming will result in an interception.

The Pencil Neck
01-13-2011, 07:22 PM
It's pretty amazing that a guy with such a noodle arm who can't hit his receivers in stride and whose balls flutter around asking to be picked off threw for over 4000 yards last year and was 5th in the league at 273 ypg (6th in yards per attempt) and was 9th in the league in interception percentage.

The fact is he did hit a lot of guys in stride which is why you've got guys like OD running through the secondary. And he overthrew some guys. And he underthrew some guys. He threw behind some guys, too. And he had a lot of passes dropped and at the end of the day, he'd thrown for more than 4300 yards in the season which is really, really good.

He's a really, really good QB. He's not perfect. But he's really, really good and very few guys could come in here and do better.

silvrhand
01-13-2011, 07:32 PM
So what if the receiver could sit on the field, and finish a Vic & Anthony's
steak dinner before the ball comes down. He's still gonna catch it, right?

.....

:kubepalm:

If he hits him in stride it's a touchdown, not a long gain..

thunderkyss
01-13-2011, 08:38 PM
It's pretty amazing that a guy with such a noodle arm who can't hit his receivers in stride and whose balls flutter around asking to be picked off threw for over 4000 yards last year and was 5th in the league at 273 ypg (6th in yards per attempt) and was 9th in the league in interception percentage.

The fact is he did hit a lot of guys in stride which is why you've got guys like OD running through the secondary. And he overthrew some guys. And he underthrew some guys. He threw behind some guys, too. And he had a lot of passes dropped and at the end of the day, he'd thrown for more than 4300 yards in the season which is really, really good.

He's a really, really good QB. He's not perfect. But he's really, really good and very few guys could come in here and do better.

A lot of it is the scheme, excellent route combinations, and the leagues leading rusher faking like he has the ball. We're talking wide the FUG open. Andre & JJ would be three to five yards ahead of the coverage, they have to slow, stop, or come back to make the catch. Many times they were so wide open, the defense still wasn't able to affect the catch, but they were able to make the tackle.

Of course, some of those combinations had the coverage so far down the field, that OD, Walter, JJ, or Foster could run for twenty or thirty yards before the defense could get back to them.

None of this (in my mind) takes away from Schuab as one of the better QBs in the league. He just has his limitations like all of them, including the greats, the Elites (Manning, Brady, & Brees). Matt doesn't have a big arm..... Big enough maybe, but he definitely leaves points on the table.

The Pencil Neck
01-13-2011, 11:04 PM
A lot of it is the scheme, excellent route combinations, and the leagues leading rusher faking like he has the ball. We're talking wide the FUG open. Andre & JJ would be three to five yards ahead of the coverage, they have to slow, stop, or come back to make the catch. Many times they were so wide open, the defense still wasn't able to affect the catch, but they were able to make the tackle.

Of course, some of those combinations had the coverage so far down the field, that OD, Walter, JJ, or Foster could run for twenty or thirty yards before the defense could get back to them.

None of this (in my mind) takes away from Schuab as one of the better QBs in the league. He just has his limitations like all of them, including the greats, the Elites (Manning, Brady, & Brees). Matt doesn't have a big arm..... Big enough maybe, but he definitely leaves points on the table.

The thing is... having Arian Foster and the ground game really didn't improve things from the passing side as much as I thought it would. Matt's always been good at selling the fakes and even when our running game was crap, his fakes froze guys and caused guys to come open.

I've seen missed throws, guys not hit in stride, guys underthrown, guys overthrown, by every quarterback I've ever seen.

Could Schaub have thrown for more? Did he leave some yards on the field by not making perfect throws? Sure. But so did every QB out there. Even Brady and Manning and especially Brees. None of that matters.

The bottom line is that we have a hellacious passing attack. Can we improve it? Yes. How? By getting WRs that don't drop the ball as much as JJ and KW did this season not by dumping Schaub and drafting a new QB in the first round. (Not that you were suggesting that, TK, but it was suggested in this thread.)

worldlyman
01-13-2011, 11:24 PM
Arm-strength is a nice resource to have but it's not everything. Schaub still has his strengths, like general accuracy. I'm more concerned about Schaub's ability to simply get the ball out quicker than "arm strength" or catching guys in deep stride all the time.

I mean, I'd rather Schaub find ways to get the ball to the receivers than throwing picks...and Matt didn't throw too many of them this year, considering how many times he had to throw.

I wouldn't undestimate Schaub on getting completions either because while AJ is the beast man...it's not like he has Joiner/Jefferson/Chandler/Winslow or Givens/Jeffires/Duncan/Slaughter as a receiving/TE corps overall (especially with OD on the mend).

But arm-strength can be over-rated:
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/good-article-arm-strength-qbs-1161285/

machineo
01-14-2011, 12:59 AM
52% accuracy with the deep ball? That seems about right since he never risks overthrowing a route. An underthrown ball is still catchable, just no YAC. Come on Matt I'd love to see you hit AJ over the shoulder in stride on Finnegan!

The Pencil Neck
01-14-2011, 01:20 AM
52% accuracy with the deep ball? That seems about right since he never risks overthrowing a route. An underthrown ball is still catchable, just no YAC. Come on Matt I'd love to see you hit AJ over the shoulder in stride on Finnegan!

Not on Finnegan but...

Andre's One Handed TD catch against the Titans. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T79AnkDuYA)

And this was pretty much in stride against the Titans, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IN9au7eJU&NR=1)

Not against the Titans, but looks like it's in stride to me. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN6rGs72ckA&feature=related)

But, I guess that's just me.

76Texan
01-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Arm-strength is a nice resource to have but it's not everything. Schaub still has his strengths, like general accuracy. I'm more concerned about Schaub's ability to simply get the ball out quicker than "arm strength" or catching guys in deep stride all the time.

I mean, I'd rather Schaub find ways to get the ball to the receivers than throwing picks...and Matt didn't throw too many of them this year, considering how many times he had to throw.

I wouldn't undestimate Schaub on getting completions either because while AJ is the beast man...it's not like he has Joiner/Jefferson/Chandler/Winslow or Givens/Jeffires/Duncan/Slaughter as a receiving/TE corps overall (especially with OD on the mend).

But arm-strength can be over-rated:
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/good-article-arm-strength-qbs-1161285/
I think both sides have their merrit concerning Schaub's ability and limitation.
He's definitely a top ten QBs, IMO.

The thing is, a lot of us were expecting that he would move real close to or even crack into top 5, and that didn't happen.
That may never happen due to some of his limitation!?!

The Pencil Neck
01-14-2011, 02:35 AM
I think both sides have their merrit concerning Schaub's ability and limitation.
He's definitely a top ten QBs, IMO.

The thing is, a lot of us were expecting that he would move real close to or even crack into top 5, and that didn't happen.
That may never happen due to some of his limitation!?!

If we start winning and start getting deep into the playoffs, Schaub's ranking will go up.

The thing is that Schaub's "limitations" aren't anything that's holding the Texans back. IMO.

silvrhand
01-14-2011, 08:40 AM
If we start winning and start getting deep into the playoffs, Schaub's ranking will go up.

The thing is that Schaub's "limitations" aren't anything that's holding the Texans back. IMO.

I dunno, the longer and more tape people have on Matt the more they'll figure out that..

- we never throw the deep out route.
- sitting on the shorter crossing routes will start to kill us.
- his route progression seems slow

they'll start laying on the short routes and soon enough cover us up. Honestly I think Matt really missed having OD more than anything. That's the one key area that is really hard for teams to want to give up a DB to cover a TE, it's a mismatch either way and hard to account for.

Once we start playing a lot touger defenses we'll find out what Matt is all about, it's not like the AFC south has a ton of great defenses that we play consistently.

panamamyers
01-14-2011, 08:42 AM
Schaub reminds me of Ken O'Brien that used to play for the Jets.
Not so much in their strengths and weaknesses, but just in the level of quarterback he is relative to the rest of the league. O'Brien made a few playoffs though. He was 0-2 in playoff games he started. O'Brien was a two time Pro Bowler.

If you go back and look at the statistics of O'Brien and Elway through their first four or five years in the league, you'd have to think O'Brien is the guy that is leading his team to Super Bowls if either of them are.

You cannot overlook the intangibles though which is why Elway was so much better of a quarterback despite the statistics showing that O'Brien was.

TD
01-14-2011, 08:56 AM
Arm strength is overrated IF the QB is a good steward of the ball and avoids mistakes that lose the game.......like throwing interceptions when already in GW field goal range. :cool:

Yeah...I'm still bitter about the Denver game.

infantrycak
01-14-2011, 10:37 AM
I dunno, the longer and more tape people have on Matt the more they'll figure out that..

- we never throw the deep out route.
- sitting on the shorter crossing routes will start to kill us.
- his route progression seems slow

Yeah four years now of starting and HC's and DC's are just starting to figure out the weaknesses you have spotted. Good call.

Oh look, not in stride and not a deep out. Or just not. Link (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009121303/2009/REG14/seahawks@texans#tab:watch)

Dishman
01-14-2011, 11:02 AM
Yeah four years now of starting and HC's and DC's are just starting to figure out the weaknesses you have spotted. Good call.

Oh look, not in stride and not a deep out. Or just not. Link (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009121303/2009/REG14/seahawks@texans#tab:watch)\

I'm not sure a team even needed an HC or a DC to defeat the 2010 Texans. Other teams just needed an OC and QB not-named-Rusty-Smith to get the job done. :kitten:

Luv_ya_blue
01-14-2011, 11:09 AM
I didn't read all the posts, so forgive me if I've repeated the sentiment of someone else already.

I've only been to a few games in person in the past couple years, but what I saw out of Schaub caused me multiple uncomfortable moments! I have seen him repeatedly throw balls at players feet, behind them and just poorly thrown in general.

It does however, stagger the mind that he's racked up as many yards as he has...until you factor in that for many of those yards he was throwing to the BEST WR in the entire league in Andre and a pretty fair TE in Owen (before he was hurt).

I like Schaub for various reasons, none of which I'm able to put my finger on. With that said, the games that I've been able to watch closely and analyze his mechanic and technique...I really seem a great deal of inconsistency on HIS part, and a fair amount of "playmaking" on the part of his receivers.

Corrosion
01-14-2011, 11:12 AM
It's pretty amazing that a guy with such a noodle arm who can't hit his receivers in stride and whose balls flutter around asking to be picked off threw for over 4000 yards last year and was 5th in the league at 273 ypg (6th in yards per attempt) and was 9th in the league in interception percentage.

The fact is he did hit a lot of guys in stride which is why you've got guys like OD running through the secondary. And he overthrew some guys. And he underthrew some guys. He threw behind some guys, too. And he had a lot of passes dropped and at the end of the day, he'd thrown for more than 4300 yards in the season which is really, really good.

He's a really, really good QB. He's not perfect. But he's really, really good and very few guys could come in here and do better.

My statements earlier were strictly about the deep ball ..... When Schaub is throwing short and intermediate routes he's usually highly accurate and those make up the majority of the Texans passing game. The coaches have developed a nice scheme that fits his skillset .... and Schaub makes the most of it with those short and medium throws.

BigBull17
01-14-2011, 11:16 AM
Arm-strength is a nice resource to have but it's not everything. Schaub still has his strengths, like general accuracy. I'm more concerned about Schaub's ability to simply get the ball out quicker than "arm strength" or catching guys in deep stride all the time.

I mean, I'd rather Schaub find ways to get the ball to the receivers than throwing picks...and Matt didn't throw too many of them this year, considering how many times he had to throw.

I wouldn't undestimate Schaub on getting completions either because while AJ is the beast man...it's not like he has Joiner/Jefferson/Chandler/Winslow or Givens/Jeffires/Duncan/Slaughter as a receiving/TE corps overall (especially with OD on the mend).

But arm-strength can be over-rated:
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/good-article-arm-strength-qbs-1161285/

I put arm strength behind Smarts, accuracy, leadership, toughness, ect. It is nice, but more of a luxury.

disaacks3
01-14-2011, 11:32 AM
The thing is... having Arian Foster and the ground game really didn't improve things from the passing side as much as I thought it would. Matt's always been good at selling the fakes and even when our running game was crap, his fakes froze guys and caused guys to come open.

I've seen missed throws, guys not hit in stride, guys underthrown, guys overthrown, by every quarterback I've ever seen.

Could Schaub have thrown for more? Did he leave some yards on the field by not making perfect throws? Sure. But so did every QB out there. Even Brady and Manning and especially Brees. None of that matters.

The bottom line is that we have a hellacious passing attack. Can we improve it? Yes. How? By getting WRs that don't drop the ball as much as JJ and KW did this season not by dumping Schaub and drafting a new QB in the first round. (Not that you were suggesting that, TK, but it was suggested in this thread.) I've rarely seen Brees, Manning, Brady, Rivers, etc. severely underthrow a deep receiver with at least 5 yds separation on near as consistently a basis. Hell, Schaub has openly admitted in interviews that he's instructed to just "put it up there and let his receiver go up and get it."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to trade Matt anytime soon, but he DOES have weaknesses that aren't found in the top 1-4 QBs.

thunderkyss
01-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Not on Finnegan but...

Andre's One Handed TD catch against the Titans. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T79AnkDuYA)

Not bad, but that's only 20 yards out.

And this was pretty much in stride against the Titans, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IN9au7eJU&NR=1)

Luckily Andre had them beat so bad, it didn't matter. But that's more like what we're saying we don't like to see. Get that ball over his head, let him run under it. That way, when he only has a step or two, it's still a TD.

Not against the Titans, but looks like it's in stride to me. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN6rGs72ckA&feature=related)

Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Need to see more of these.

But, I guess that's just me.

I guess.

thunderkyss
01-14-2011, 12:42 PM
The thing is, a lot of us were expecting that he would move real close to or even crack into top 5, and that didn't happen.
That may never happen due to some of his limitation!?!

My thing is how long does it take you to figure out how fast a guy is?

He's been throwing to AJ & Walter for 4 years now.... JJ for three. Get that ball in front of them. Like I said, it isn't always about arm strength...... anticipation & trust is what he's laking IMO.

sure, there's been a few times he's thrown that ball out there & AJ or JJ just happens to fall down...... if at first you don't succeed.......

thunderkyss
01-14-2011, 12:46 PM
- we never throw the deep out route.
- sitting on the shorter crossing routes will start to kill us.
- his route progression seems slow


I think you have a pretty short........ memory.

out of his 4 years here, 2010 is the only year I've seen Schaub reluctant to throw the deep ball.

I think it's funny, because I don't believe his protection has ever been better..... he used to take some shots to deliver the long ball.

albeit dead duck & fluttery.

thunderkyss
01-14-2011, 12:49 PM
Yeah four years now of starting and HC's and DC's are just starting to figure out the weaknesses you have spotted. Good call.

Oh look, not in stride and not a deep out. Or just not. Link (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009121303/2009/REG14/seahawks@texans#tab:watch)

Three or four highlights from that catch, there is Bernard Pollard making a beautiful pick..

But he sucks in coverage.....

:kubepalm:

silvrhand
01-14-2011, 12:54 PM
Yeah four years now of starting and HC's and DC's are just starting to figure out the weaknesses you have spotted. Good call.

Oh look, not in stride and not a deep out. Or just not. Link (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009121303/2009/REG14/seahawks@texans#tab:watch)

Uh that wasn't a deep out.. and for once he hit him in stride, which is what you get when you throw a good deep ball. I'm not asking him to do that everytime but I'd like it to be more or the norm than it is now.

eriadoc
01-14-2011, 01:09 PM
Schaub hits plenty of deep balls. He's supposed to, so there's no need to give him extra credit for doing what he's supposed to do. He misses 3-4 TDs a year underthrowing a wide open WR (usually AJ). That doesn't mean he's a poor QB, but for anyone to bristle at the notion that Schaub has underthrown WRs enough for people to notice the tendency is ridiculous. It happens, it's observable, and that's life. It's possible to notice and evaluate weaknesses in a player's game without assuming that player sucks.

JB
01-14-2011, 01:24 PM
Schaub hits plenty of deep balls. He's supposed to, so there's no need to give him extra credit for doing what he's supposed to do. He misses 3-4 TDs a year underthrowing a wide open WR (usually AJ). That doesn't mean he's a poor QB, but for anyone to bristle at the notion that Schaub has underthrown WRs enough for people to notice the tendency is ridiculous. It happens, it's observable, and that's life. It's possible to notice and evaluate weaknesses in a player's game without assuming that player sucks.


For many it is. Others, not so much.

The Pencil Neck
01-14-2011, 01:49 PM
I've rarely seen Brees, Manning, Brady, Rivers, etc. severely underthrow a deep receiver with at least 5 yds separation on near as consistently a basis. Hell, Schaub has openly admitted in interviews that he's instructed to just "put it up there and let his receiver go up and get it."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to trade Matt anytime soon, but he DOES have weaknesses that aren't found in the top 1-4 QBs.

I've seen plenty of bad throws by Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, and Rivers. Manning and Brady, not as much, but even so, they do make mistakes, they do miss lots of throws.

The only thing separating Matt from guys like Brees and Rodgers is winning. And for me, winning is a team stat, not a QB stat.

When a guy has the 6th most yards ever in a season in the NFL, he's pretty good.

The Pencil Neck
01-14-2011, 01:52 PM
Schaub hits plenty of deep balls. He's supposed to, so there's no need to give him extra credit for doing what he's supposed to do. He misses 3-4 TDs a year underthrowing a wide open WR (usually AJ). That doesn't mean he's a poor QB, but for anyone to bristle at the notion that Schaub has underthrown WRs enough for people to notice the tendency is ridiculous. It happens, it's observable, and that's life. It's possible to notice and evaluate weaknesses in a player's game without assuming that player sucks.

My point isn't that Schaub hasn't underthrown some receivers. My point is that we're hypercritical because he's our QB and we watch him more than other QBs. Every QB I've ever watched has underthrown and overthrown WRs. That's life.

Mannings receivers have bailed him out lots of times by making spectacular catches.

disaacks3
01-14-2011, 02:12 PM
I've seen plenty of bad throws by Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, and Rivers. Manning and Brady, not as much, but even so, they do make mistakes, they do miss lots of throws.

The only thing separating Matt from guys like Brees and Rodgers is winning. And for me, winning is a team stat, not a QB stat.

When a guy has the 6th most yards ever in a season in the NFL, he's pretty good. Bad throws? - yes. CONSISTENT underthrows to a guy who's gotten WAYYY behind the coverage? - Nope.

I've said he's good, just that he makes mistakes the elite ones don't. I'm fully aware that there's a good 20-25 teams out there who would be happy to have him.

infantrycak
01-14-2011, 04:14 PM
Schaub hits plenty of deep balls. He's supposed to, so there's no need to give him extra credit for doing what he's supposed to do. He misses 3-4 TDs a year underthrowing a wide open WR (usually AJ). That doesn't mean he's a poor QB, but for anyone to bristle at the notion that Schaub has underthrown WRs enough for people to notice the tendency is ridiculous. It happens, it's observable, and that's life. It's possible to notice and evaluate weaknesses in a player's game without assuming that player sucks.

Well said. Saying someone is good isn't saying they are perfect. Manning throws ugly balls a lot that end up accurate at least enough for the WRs to make a play. That's the way it goes. Lynn Swan wouldn't be in the hall of fame if he hadn't bailed Bradshaw's butt out on a lot of playoff throws.

My point isn't that Schaub hasn't underthrown some receivers. My point is that we're hypercritical because he's our QB and we watch him more than other QBs. Every QB I've ever watched has underthrown and overthrown WRs. That's life.

Mannings receivers have bailed him out lots of times by making spectacular catches.

Exactly.

hookinreds
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
Not bad, but that's only 20 yards out.

Luckily Andre had them beat so bad, it didn't matter. But that's more like what we're saying we don't like to see. Get that ball over his head, let him run under it. That way, when he only has a step or two, it's still a TD.

Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Need to see more of these.


I guess.

Great passes each, but the other two were right at 35yds and the at the maximum of what I would would consider a medium range ball or minimum for long range. Now, on these particular routes...35yrd is where he needed to hit AJ, but I think the shortfall people are talking about is when that ball needs to be dropped in around the 40-50 yard range. While I can't stand to see a player 3 strides ahead of the defender have to slow down for a jump ball, I will take his overall accuracy over being a chucker. I also wonder if that rib/side injury from early November in the seaons stuck with him the whole year. That being said, he was short on the deep ball last year too. Just an observation, nothing more. I like Schaub as my QB.

JB
01-14-2011, 07:01 PM
When you look at Schaubs deep throws being underthrown, you have to consider part of that is because he is usually doing a play action, and his slowness afoot means it takes awhile to release the ball.

The other part to consider is the speed of AJ. Remember the commercial where he was outrunning the Juggs punt machine?

I also think that Schaub was dealing with injuries this year, as others have mentioned.


That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it...

drs23
01-14-2011, 07:15 PM
I've seen plenty of bad throws by Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, and Rivers. Manning and Brady, not as much, but even so, they do make mistakes, they do miss lots of throws.

The only thing separating Matt from guys like Brees and Rodgers is winning. And for me, winning is a team stat, not a QB stat.

When a guy has the 6th most yards ever in a season in the NFL, he's pretty good.

:goodpost:

m5kwatts
01-14-2011, 11:39 PM
I've seen plenty of bad throws by Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, and Rivers. Manning and Brady, not as much, but even so, they do make mistakes, they do miss lots of throws.

The only thing separating Matt from guys like Brees and Rodgers is winning. And for me, winning is a team stat, not a QB stat.

When a guy has the 6th most yards ever in a season in the NFL, he's pretty good.

Best post in the whole thread. Rep.

worldlyman
01-15-2011, 01:00 AM
Schaub reminds me of Ken O'Brien that used to play for the Jets.
Not so much in their strengths and weaknesses, but just in the level of quarterback he is relative to the rest of the league. O'Brien made a few playoffs though. He was 0-2 in playoff games he started. O'Brien was a two time Pro Bowler.

If you go back and look at the statistics of O'Brien and Elway through their first four or five years in the league, you'd have to think O'Brien is the guy that is leading his team to Super Bowls if either of them are.

You cannot overlook the intangibles though which is why Elway was so much better of a quarterback despite the statistics showing that O'Brien was.

Ken O'Brien was pretty damn good...but he took a TON of sacks. Catastrophic amount during his seasons! And most of his prime career, his defenses gave up PLENTY OF POINTS, despite the NY Sack Exchange. 1985 was the only season the NY Jets allowed fewer than 290 points during the prime O'Brien era.

While he lit it up on offense, his lines never gave him good protection. When you get sacked 45-50 times a season on average...it can be hard to advance. It is hard to get to a Super Bowl when the QB is getting sacked that many times despite how good everything else is. At least, that's what the Ken O'Brien example shows, despite other positive stats.

Generally when you look at a lot of QBs in the Super Bowl, they had manageable sack numbers. 35 or less. Very few noteworthy exceptions are Jim Plunkett taking 40 and Big Ben taking close to 50 or so.

Favre took 40 during his Super Bowl win in 1996-97. But those Packers simply were too good of a team during that time frame.

And O'Brien's stats aren't quite what Schaub's have been so far as a starter. We need not discuss the historically catastrophic and supine Texans defense which can affect any concomitant QB's ability to consistently win.

thunderkyss
01-15-2011, 05:51 PM
While I can't stand to see a player 3 strides ahead of the defender have to slow down for a jump ball, I will take his overall accuracy over being a chucker.

So you're saying you'd rather take Schaub over DanO??

interesting.
:kitten:

I also wonder if that rib/side injury from early November in the seaons stuck with him the whole year. That being said, he was short on the deep ball last year too. Just an observation, nothing more. I like Schaub as my QB.

I don't doubt that he's played injured most of the year.... & he played well. But like you said..... this isn't something we just noticed this year.

thunderkyss
01-15-2011, 06:05 PM
I've seen plenty of bad throws by Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, and Rivers. Manning and Brady, not as much, but even so, they do make mistakes, they do miss lots of throws.

The only thing separating Matt from guys like Brees and Rodgers is winning. And for me, winning is a team stat, not a QB stat.

When a guy has the 6th most yards ever in a season in the NFL, he's pretty good.

In that case, Jon Kitna should be a first ballot H.O.F.er......

:kubepalm:

He's had two 4,000 yard seasons in 2006 & 2007.

Normally I agree, winning is a team stat not a QB stat. But when your teammate consistently get's wide the fug open, & you underthrow him when there is no defenders ahead of him, you just cost your team a TD.

& it don't matter if their down by 4 or down by 30, if you consistently miss that deep ball (& he does) early in the game...... you change the whole dynamic of the game.

I'm not down on Matt...... I think the good outweighs the bad. I don't have a problem pinting out the flaws in his game. IMHO, all players should be working on their weaknesses. Even AJ, even Foster, even Mario...... everyone on this team needs to get better.

From McNair down.

The Pencil Neck
01-15-2011, 10:14 PM
In that case, Jon Kitna should be a first ballot H.O.F.er.

Not really. There's a big difference between throwing for 4770 yards in a season and throwing for 4200 and 4000 yards in back to back seasons. Very few QBs in the history of the NFL have thrown for over 9000 yards in back to back seasons. Matt's one of them, Kitna isn't.

Kitna doesn't get enough credit. He's the Steve DeBerg of this generation. But he'll never be more than a second rate QB because of his inability to not throw interceptions. With that said, he's a couple of steps up from HWWNBN.

With all that said, yes, you're right. Matt needs to improve and he's got plenty of stuff to work on.

Texan JBZ
01-22-2011, 12:17 AM
I really can't understand all the critiquing and microscope study of everything that Matt Schaub does. I listen to meatballs bagging on him on sports talk all day long and I can't understand it. I even heard The Mighty One say that he would take Jay Cutler over Matt Schaub! I almost ran off of the road. I'm like, "Just how many interceptions did Seattle drop in that game again?" Jay Cutler didn't make some dramatic turnaround this past season. The difference is that the Bears remembered how to play defense again. It's no coincidence that all four teams playing this weekend rank in the Top 10 in total defense. The Bears finished 30th in total offense. That's Texans defense putridly bad.

Back to my point. When I look at a QB, one of the last things I rate him on is arm strength. Sure, Jay Cutler has a hose. So did Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Tim Couch. So does Rex Grossman. And just how accurate are any of these guys on their deep passes? Decision making, accuracy, and football I.Q. are much more important than arm strength. Matt Schaub gets a significanty high passing grade in each category in my opinion.

Texans fans wrongly blame Schaub for too many of the Texans problems. Here's something interesting I pose. Phillip Rivers is easily considered to be one the Top 5 elite QBs in the NFL right now along with Brady, Manning, Brees, and Roethlisberger. The Chargers finished the season as the league's #1 ranked offense, which is phenomonal. Our lowly Texans with what's been deemed by many as not being an elite offense and not having an elite QB who is a "winner" and supposedly can't throw an accurate deep ball finished 3rd behind 2nd place Philly and they're high flying offense. This is the important fact: Those same Chargers finished with the #1 ranked defense too! So I am supposed to believe that Phillip Rivers is a Top 5 QB who can't lead his team to the playoffs with the #1 ranked defense in the league and Matt Schaub isn't an elite QB with one of the worst defenses in the HISTORY of the NFL? That's absurd. I wonder how many people in San Diego are claiming Rivers is the problem and needs to be replaced or critiquing every part of his game like we do with Schaub? Matt Schaub is the man! Wake up and realize that naysayers! We've got it good here in Houston at that position. Now about that defense..

Rey
01-22-2011, 12:34 AM
& it don't matter if their down by 4 or down by 30, if you consistently miss that deep ball (& he does) early in the game...... you change the whole dynamic of the game.

I'm not down on Matt...... I think the good outweighs the bad. I don't have a problem pinting out the flaws in his game. IMHO, all players should be working on their weaknesses. Even AJ, even Foster, even Mario...... everyone on this team needs to get better.

From McNair down.


The thing about Matt's deep ball is that if he was better at throwing the ball out ahead of the receiver, it'd open up more of the underneath/intermediate stuff a lot more.

If a team knows that they will be able to get back in a play even if they are beat deep, they can sit on the shorter stuff a lot more.

But you are right...Schaub is a very good QB...Not above criticism though...

thunderkyss
01-22-2011, 12:49 PM
I really can't understand all the critiquing and microscope study of everything that Matt Schaub does.

I don't have a problem with the microscope. He's part of this team, & to me it doesn't make sense to wait until he is the weakest link, to actually watch him & see if he's improving or not.

He is the leader of this team. IMO, it would make me feel better about that if he is improving his game year in & year out. Brady & Manning were not perfect when they came into the league. They aren't now, but they're much closer than they were. Things they do now, they couldn't do 10 years ago.

But they consistently worked on their game, & their teams are better for it.

McNabb, in my mind is more talented than both Brady & Manning. But he isn't as smart, & never really improved his game (that's why I don't think he belongs in the same conversation, even though he's played at a high level for a long time). IMO, he waited for the team around him to get better. I think Shanahan benched him, because he is not a leader. He thinks (I believe) that he's an elite QB, like Vince does... he'll go through the motions, but he doesn't believe that he can get any better.

Texanmike02
01-24-2011, 06:07 AM
Schaub's deep ball left something to be desired this year. I think that's a fair statement.

Now we've started analyzing other aspects of the game in this thread including winning and losing so let me address that because he is the leader of the ENTIRE team.

I think that order of business number ONE for Schaub next year should be to talk to the new DC/DB coach and make sure that the DB's line up a few yards inside of the first down marker on occasion. If he'd have recognized that flaw in the defense they wouldn't have scored that last TD.

Ok seriously. If this team is down by 5 with 3:00 left in the fourth and Schaub just got the ball we have no faith that this team will win the game. Oh, Schaub will go down the field and lead the team on a lead taking drive. We also know that the defense will escort the other team, no matter how few seconds are left, in a chaotic manner that reminds me why I hate the Bills so badly.

Schaub ain't the problem folks. If our defense could smell average from 3 doors down the hall this would be a playoff team. If our defense could break the ranks of the top 10 we'd be talking conference championship.

Mike