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View Full Version : Mario a DE, Cushing could go either way according to Phillips


Jackie Chiles
01-07-2011, 01:58 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7369934.html

"Ends Mario Williams and Antonio Smith will be excited to know that in the Phillips 3-4, they will line up farther outside and have responsibility for only one gap."

“Mario’s powerful,” Phillips said. “He can be a dominant player. I want him to get up the field. He gets good leverage. He’s strong against the run. It’s a matter of helping him, technique-wise, and putting him in position to take advantage of his talent.”

"From watching film, Phillips isn’t sure if Brian Cushing will be more effective inside or outside."


This is pretty much as expected, I still see Cushing finding a home on the INSIDE seeing as, while he can blitz effectively, he isn't a true pass rusher. He would be serviceable at the outside but I think if we find another real threat our pass rush would be legitimate for the first time...... ever. Saying that Brian could play either position also keeps other teams guessing when draft day rolls around. Hopefully no team jumps ahead of us and grabs some OLB we covet at 11. Just my opinion. Also nice to see that Mitchell will get a shot at nose, I think he has a chance to make a name for himself there.

Corrosion
01-07-2011, 02:02 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7369934.html

"Ends Mario Williams and Antonio Smith will be excited to know that in the Phillips 3-4, they will line up farther outside and have responsibility for only one gap."

“Mario’s powerful,” Phillips said. “He can be a dominant player. I want him to get up the field. He gets good leverage. He’s strong against the run. It’s a matter of helping him, technique-wise, and putting him in position to take advantage of his talent.”

"From watching film, Phillips isn’t sure if Brian Cushing will be more effective inside or outside."


This is pretty much as expected, I still see Cushing finding a home on the INSIDE seeing as, while he can blitz effectively, he isn't a true pass rusher. He would be serviceable at the outside but I think if we find another real threat our pass rush would be legitimate for the first time...... ever. Saying that Brian could play either position also keeps other teams guessing when draft day rolls around. Hopefully no team jumps ahead of us and grabs some OLB we covet at 11. Just my opinion. Also nice to see that Mitchell will get a shot at nose, I think he has a chance to make a name for himself there.

Im of the opinion that Mitchell is much the same type of player as 0k0ye .... and I really feel like he's better suited as a 34 DE than a DT in any system. Maybe Phillips see's something in him that I dont .... or that he hasnt shown us.

silvrhand
01-07-2011, 02:57 AM
Im of the opinion that Mitchell is much the same type of player as 0k0ye .... and I really feel like he's better suited as a 34 DE than a DT in any system. Maybe Phillips see's something in him that I dont .... or that he hasnt shown us.

I liked what I saw of mitchel towards the end of the year he has consistently gotten better with a coaching staff that his horrible.. He seems to be an antonio smith jr IMHO.

wagonhed
01-07-2011, 03:17 AM
Im of the opinion that Mitchell is much the same type of player as 0k0ye .... and I really feel like he's better suited as a 34 DE than a DT in any system. Maybe Phillips see's something in him that I dont .... or that he hasnt shown us.
Is this your opinion based on watching the players and the way they play, or based on what was said about Mitchell when we drafted him?

I'm asking because I am never in a position to really figure out what the DLine is doing or even who is in on a play most of the time, unless they are the one making the play. I know that they touted Mitchell as another Amobi pass-rushing type of tackle but it's not like I can actually tell that without watching game tape (which I don't have).

beerlover
01-07-2011, 04:05 AM
Is this your opinion based on watching the players and the way they play, or based on what was said about Mitchell when we drafted him?

I'm asking because I am never in a position to really figure out what the DLine is doing or even who is in on a play most of the time, unless they are the one making the play. I know that they touted Mitchell as another Amobi pass-rushing type of tackle but it's not like I can actually tell that without watching game tape (which I don't have).

Earl is a converted TE that switched @ Arizona to DT. The physical pounding @ the nose would wear him down too much as a starter, but he could provide depth. don't see him or Okoye as starting DE caliber they both lack height/measureables, ends should be tall & angular not just strong with good base. think 6-5 290.

dalemurphy
01-07-2011, 04:19 AM
It sure is refreshing to read Wade's quotes! but, it's better to totally ignore McClain's attempts to paraphrase and bridge the quotes. JM clearly has no grasp on what he's talking about. This is twice I have seen McClain write that the Texans will play a 4-3 defense on passing downs. I guarantee you that belief stems from a misunderstanding on his part. Wade's 3-4 is designed to get pressure on the QB and it's weakness is usually vs. the inside run game. McClain would have you believe that we will play Wade's 3-4 on run downs and then transition to the 4-3 on passing downs? that makes no sense!

Notice that Wade compliments Antonio Smith's motor saying that he plays "tough and hard" while he basically says that Mario is strong and talented but is still raw and an underachiever? Here's that quote:

“Mario’s powerful,” He can be a dominant player. I want him to get up the field. He gets good leverage. He’s strong against the run. It’s a matter of helping him, technique-wise, and putting him in position to take advantage of his talent.”

Clearly, Wade has watched tape of the Texans!

Also refreshing is that I already know more about Wade's defensive philosophy than I ever knew about Richard Smith's or Frank Bush's... as much as I wanted to believe otherwise and (at time's) assumed surely couldn't be the case for an NFL coach, I think it's because those guys never had a philosophy-at least not one they could effectively communicate.

It's also nice to hear a Texan coach make astute assessments of Texan players. Man, that's refreshing. Instead of building the defense based on assumptions made two years ago, the guy is looking at tape, studying what the player does and doesn't do, and then trying to figure out how to help him be successful and how the player's talent will be best serve the defense. I AM ON BOARD!!

aussie_texan
01-07-2011, 06:27 AM
it sure is refreshing to read wade's quotes!

Also refreshing is that i already know more about wade's defensive philosophy than i ever knew about richard smith's or frank bush's... As much as i wanted to believe otherwise and (at time's) assumed surely couldn't be the case for an nfl coach, i think it's because those guys never had a philosophy-at least not one they could effectively communicate.

It's also nice to hear a texan coach make astute assessments of texan players. Man, that's refreshing. Instead of building the defense based on assumptions made two years ago, the guy is looking at tape, studying what the player does and doesn't do, and then trying to figure out how to help him be successful and how the player's talent will be best serve the defense. I am on board!!

this!!!!!!!

DocBar
01-07-2011, 06:50 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7369934.html

PapaL
01-07-2011, 07:28 AM
Well...hopefully he's right or they bring that white jacket with all the buckles for him.

TimeKiller
01-07-2011, 08:30 AM
It sure is refreshing to read Wade's quotes! but, it's better to totally ignore McClain's attempts to paraphrase and bridge the quotes. JM clearly has no grasp on what he's talking about. This is twice I have seen McClain write that the Texans will play a 4-3 defense on passing downs. I guarantee you that belief stems from a misunderstanding on his part. Wade's 3-4 is designed to get pressure on the QB and it's weakness is usually vs. the inside run game. McClain would have you believe that we will play Wade's 3-4 on run downs and then transition to the 4-3 on passing downs? that makes no sense!
!!
Don't take this as I'm trying to stick up for butterball but surely he meant when they go nickel package they'll have a four man front like always.

It'll be nice if Wade can truly use his players as weapons, as he seems to believe he can.

Rey
01-07-2011, 08:38 AM
Earl is a converted TE that switched @ Arizona to DT. The physical pounding @ the nose would wear him down too much as a starter, but he could provide depth. don't see him or Okoye as starting DE caliber they both lack height/measureables, ends should be tall & angular not just strong with good base. think 6-5 290.

I disagree...

The nose tackle doesn't take any more pounding than a DT in a regular 4-3...

People just want big nose tackles because you want them to not give up any ground and make it harder on the O-linemen to get push...

But they do not take any more pounding than any other DT in any other system...

El Tejano
01-07-2011, 08:43 AM
Nice to see we got a real DC. Hopefully Free Agency works well for us to build this part of the team.

Rey
01-07-2011, 08:48 AM
It sure is refreshing to read Wade's quotes! but, it's better to totally ignore McClain's attempts to paraphrase and bridge the quotes. JM clearly has no grasp on what he's talking about. This is twice I have seen McClain write that the Texans will play a 4-3 defense on passing downs. I guarantee you that belief stems from a misunderstanding on his part. Wade's 3-4 is designed to get pressure on the QB and it's weakness is usually vs. the inside run game. McClain would have you believe that we will play Wade's 3-4 on run downs and then transition to the 4-3 on passing downs? that makes no sense!

Dale I think this is something that fans should keep in mind:

The Phillips version of the defense is closer to a 4-3 than the traditional 3-4, said the Texans’ new defensive coordinator.

Sure there will be some changes, but I think fans (not you necessarily) need to get the idea of a traditional 3-4 out of their mind.

Wade has said that he wants Mario and Smith to continue to have 1-gap responsibility, and he wants them to play up field and they will be playing wider than traditional 3-4 ends. Also, The Nose tackle in this system will only be responsible for 1-gap...

I think that this bit of information is important to know when discussing personnel and how it fits into Wade's defense.

ArlingtonTexan
01-07-2011, 08:59 AM
Don't take this as I'm trying to stick up for butterball but surely he meant when they go nickel package they'll have a four man front like always.

It'll be nice if Wade can truly use his players as weapons, as he seems to believe he can.

Yep. The four man rush front from 3-4 teams is pretty normal. Given the nature of football today, there will be games where the 3-4 Texans will spend 55-60 percent of the time in the four man front.

Corrosion
01-07-2011, 09:00 AM
I disagree...

The nose tackle doesn't take any more pounding than a DT in a regular 4-3...

People just want big nose tackles because you want them to not give up any ground and make it harder on the O-linemen to get push...

But they do not take any more pounding than any other DT in any other system...

Depends on the gap assignments - think Seth Payne who played a two gap technique in Capers version of the 34. Those guy's take a lot of added wear and tear simply because they are expected to deal with both the center and a guard on every play.

I believe I read that Wade wants to run a 1 gap system with the players we have here. The big question there is do we have the ILB's capable of making it work ? They have to be adept at shedding blocks.

GP
01-07-2011, 09:32 AM
I don't know why a defensive player would want to play NT in a 3-4 defense.

Seems like a crappy way to earn a living: Get double-team'd all the time and basically just letting your teammates make the plays.

Agree or disagree?

Rey
01-07-2011, 09:36 AM
Depends on the gap assignments - think Seth Payne who played a two gap technique in Capers version of the 34. Those guy's take a lot of added wear and tear simply because they are expected to deal with both the center and a guard on every play.


Lots of DT's are double teamed on every play...

That's not something exclusive to NT in a 3-4...

DT is a position that you take a pounding by nature of the position...3-4 or 4-3 you are still playing crash dummy on every snap.

Sometimes the play calls for a double team and sometimes a players talent calls for a double team. A lot of NT in the 3-4 are double teamed because they are hard to block with one O-lineman...If Vince Wilfork played in a 4-3 he would still be double teamed a lot because of who he is...Not the front he plays in.

thunderkyss
01-07-2011, 09:44 AM
It sure is refreshing to read Wade's quotes! but, it's better to totally ignore McClain's attempts to paraphrase and bridge the quotes. JM clearly has no grasp on what he's talking about. This is twice I have seen McClain write that the Texans will play a 4-3 defense on passing downs. I guarantee you that belief stems from a misunderstanding on his part. Wade's 3-4 is designed to get pressure on the QB and it's weakness is usually vs. the inside run game. McClain would have you believe that we will play Wade's 3-4 on run downs and then transition to the 4-3 on passing downs? that makes no sense!

But that's exactly what Dallas defense did the first few years with Wade, when they converted Greg Ellis to OLB. Even last year, they ran a 4 man front several times on passing downs.

Pollardized
01-07-2011, 09:47 AM
If Wade is looking for guys who go either way, vince young may indeed be coming to Houston....

thunderkyss
01-07-2011, 09:51 AM
Lots of DT's are double teamed on every play...

That's not something exclusive to NT in a 3-4...

DT is a position that you take a pounding by nature of the position...3-4 or 4-3 you are still playing crash dummy on every snap.

Sometimes the play call for a double team and sometimes a players talent calls for a double team. A lot of NT in the 3-4 are double teamed because they are hard to block with one O-lineman...If Vince Wilfork played in a 4-3 he would still be double teamed a lot because of who he is...Not the front he plays in.

When you're playing the 3 tech, you're lined up between a guard and a tackle. That tackle has responsibilities of the DE on your outside shoulder & any LB that might come up as well. The 3 Techs job is to jump inside that 3 gap where he should be one-on-one with the guard as the Tackle has to cover the DE. Unless he is slanting in, across the face of the guard to the 2 gap, he shouldn't be apt to getting double teamed.

Suan Cody or Damien Lewis are the only true options we have on this team to play NT. Maybe Sheppard if he is on the Practice Squad, & I say maybe, because he's got such a huge bottom end.

GP
01-07-2011, 09:55 AM
If Wade is looking for guys who go either way, vince young may indeed be coming to Houston....

Boom.

BigBull17
01-07-2011, 09:58 AM
Im of the opinion that Mitchell is much the same type of player as 0k0ye .... and I really feel like he's better suited as a 34 DE than a DT in any system. Maybe Phillips see's something in him that I dont .... or that he hasnt shown us.

If Earl is a 3rd down nose in this 34, then I'm cool with it. We need a fat **** for some clogging but a pass rusher for long yardage or the Colts.

The1ApplePie
01-07-2011, 11:28 AM
But that's exactly what Dallas defense did the first few years with Wade, when they converted Greg Ellis to OLB. Even last year, they ran a 4 man front several times on passing downs.

D. Ware played with his hand in the dirt alot on passing downs, as did Spencer.

infantrycak
01-07-2011, 11:32 AM
Earl is a converted TE that switched @ Arizona to DT. The physical pounding @ the nose would wear him down too much as a starter, but he could provide depth. don't see him or Okoye as starting DE caliber they both lack height/measureables, ends should be tall & angular not just strong with good base. think 6-5 290.

Huh? There are more 3-4 DE's in the 6'2"-3" range than 6'5".

Rey
01-07-2011, 11:36 AM
When you're playing the 3 tech, you're lined up between a guard and a tackle. That tackle has responsibilities of the DE on your outside shoulder & any LB that might come up as well.

That is not always true. It depends on the play and it also depends on whether or not a TE is on your side and will be blocking.

That is a much too simplistic look at it.


Like I said, DT's are probably the most double teamed dudes on the field. Doesn't matter if it's 4-3 or 3-4.

Also, Wade disagrees with you about who can and cannot play the Nose in his 3-4.

eriadoc
01-07-2011, 11:42 AM
Despite my general negativity toward the Smithiak regime, I am happy about the Wade Phillips hiring. He is a good DC, and I do think he'll make the defense pretty darn good here. And I think that Mario will do well under Phillips. I also think that Smithiak will find a way to take that good defense and go 7-9 or 8-8. The problems for this team run deeper than defense.

Corrosion
01-07-2011, 12:02 PM
Huh? There are more 3-4 DE's in the 6'2"-3" range than 6'5".

Yep , its all about leverage and its easier to gain that leverage when your center of gravity is lower to the ground.

dalemurphy
01-07-2011, 12:06 PM
But that's exactly what Dallas defense did the first few years with Wade, when they converted Greg Ellis to OLB. Even last year, they ran a 4 man front several times on passing downs.

sure, and we ran some 3-4 this season, too... If Wade said that he planned to use Mario primarily as an OLB, then I would think we would do more 4-3 conversions. However, if Mario is going to be playing primarily at RDE, I don't see the benefit of moving Barwin and Cushing (if he's the other OLB) into a 3 point stance. Perhaps if Wade is as fond of Jamsion as I am, we would see more 4-3, with Jamison sliding to DE next to A.Smith and Cushing pinching to the ILB...

All that is to say, McClain presents it as if he already knows that on 3rd and 10 we will automatically be moving to a 4-3.. to that, I say "no way". My guess is he heard to things and put them together.

Wade probably said "we will play some 4-3" and he also probably said "we can still move A. Smith inside on passing downs"... from that, McClain takes a leap.

dalemurphy
01-07-2011, 12:10 PM
D. Ware played with his hand in the dirt alot on passing downs, as did Spencer.

Both guys were DE converts coming out of college. So, they were more comfortable and effective from that position. If, for instance, Barwin and Cushing are the starting OLBs, I doubt we will see much standard 4-3 looks on passing downs. Plus, if Wade uses Mario in a similar way that he used Bruce Smith, Mario (as a 3-4 DE) will often be the edge rusher on his side.

Corrosion
01-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Both guys were DE converts coming out of college. So, they were more comfortable and effective from that position. If, for instance, Barwin and Cushing are the starting OLBs, I doubt we will see much standard 4-3 looks on passing downs. Plus, if Wade uses Mario in a similar way that he used Bruce Smith, Mario (as a 3-4 DE) will often be the edge rusher on his side.

I think there will be an attempt made to single up MW on guards thus making someone else the edge rusher - the Tackle responsible for that rusher.
MW against most guards is a flat out mismatch in his favor.

mussop
01-07-2011, 07:28 PM
It sure is refreshing to read Wade's quotes! but, it's better to totally ignore McClain's attempts to paraphrase and bridge the quotes. JM clearly has no grasp on what he's talking about. This is twice I have seen McClain write that the Texans will play a 4-3 defense on passing downs. I guarantee you that belief stems from a misunderstanding on his part. Wade's 3-4 is designed to get pressure on the QB and it's weakness is usually vs. the inside run game. McClain would have you believe that we will play Wade's 3-4 on run downs and then transition to the 4-3 on passing downs? that makes no sense!

Notice that Wade compliments Antonio Smith's motor saying that he plays "tough and hard" while he basically says that Mario is strong and talented but is still raw and an underachiever? Here's that quote:

“Mario’s powerful,” He can be a dominant player. I want him to get up the field. He gets good leverage. He’s strong against the run. It’s a matter of helping him, technique-wise, and putting him in position to take advantage of his talent.”

Clearly, Wade has watched tape of the Texans!

Also refreshing is that I already know more about Wade's defensive philosophy than I ever knew about Richard Smith's or Frank Bush's... as much as I wanted to believe otherwise and (at time's) assumed surely couldn't be the case for an NFL coach, I think it's because those guys never had a philosophy-at least not one they could effectively communicate.

It's also nice to hear a Texan coach make astute assessments of Texan players. Man, that's refreshing. Instead of building the defense based on assumptions made two years ago, the guy is looking at tape, studying what the player does and doesn't do, and then trying to figure out how to help him be successful and how the player's talent will be best serve the defense. I AM ON BOARD!!

I couldnt agree more. Its nice to have a spelled out system. With this regime our defensive style has been, well hell I dont even know and I dont think our coaches new either. Up until now its been "well we do a little bit of this, we do a little bit of that, read react bla bla bla.

mussop
01-07-2011, 07:36 PM
sure, and we ran some 3-4 this season, too... If Wade said that he planned to use Mario primarily as an OLB, then I would think we would do more 4-3 conversions. However, if Mario is going to be playing primarily at RDE, I don't see the benefit of moving Barwin and Cushing (if he's the other OLB) into a 3 point stance. Perhaps if Wade is as fond of Jamsion as I am, we would see more 4-3, with Jamison sliding to DE next to A.Smith and Cushing pinching to the ILB...

All that is to say, McClain presents it as if he already knows that on 3rd and 10 we will automatically be moving to a 4-3.. to that, I say "no way". My guess is he heard to things and put them together.

Wade probably said "we will play some 4-3" and he also probably said "we can still move A. Smith inside on passing downs"... from that, McClain takes a leap.

I really hope Mario gets moved around alot to sniff out weak spots and then we can just attack the hell out of them, but his primary position should be LDE.

DocBar
01-07-2011, 07:43 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing how MW does upright. He's an exceptional athelete.
Maybe try some of that weird stuff where any player on the D might be in a 2 point stance anywhere along the line. Not as a regular D, but in weird spots to confuse the O.
On that same note, I would like to see us open a game up with a no huddle offense for a series. Maybe two. Anything to throw the other team off. Kubiak seems so married to his script, I would think he would try to do something besides an end around, reverse or corner blitz to throw the other side off. Hell, throw in a fake punt or field goal once or twice a year.

Wolf
01-13-2011, 07:34 PM
(on what he was able to do in Buffalo to help DE Bruce Smith transition from the 4-3 to 3-4) “I told him to ‘sic ‘em’. You know? ‘Go get ‘em Bruce.’ Your real good players, that’s what you do with them. It’s not as easy to do as it sounds, but actually you’ve got to let them go. You’ve got to let them use their ability, give them opportunities to go and make plays where somebody else has to cover for them in some cases. Your best players, you have to feature them and you have to try and put them in situations to succeed. That’s part of the chess game I guess and part of how you set it up. When you have a great one, you try to utilize their ability. Bruce was a special, special player. I’ve had two of them. (DE) Reggie White and Bruce Smith, who were by far better than any of the guys I had coached before or after, but I’m hoping to coach one here.”


http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Quotes-Kubiak-Phillips-meet-with-media/80948e33-a19c-4a8d-9c25-a571ea78b03f

does Mario have the pass rushing moves to "sic'em"

I know he was injured this year so that limited him but can he do more than just bull rush and use his power?
(and I admit that I don't watch him enough to see if he has multiple moves)