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HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 04:48 PM
LZ put this on twitter...reposting

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/20157/scouts-inc-texans-defenders-dont-fit-3-4

Transitions from 4-3s to 3-4s can be tough and take time.

Understandably, there are questions about jamming Mario Williams, DeMeco Ryans, Brian Cushing, Antonio Smith and Amobi Okoye into the new scheme.

I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. for his thoughts on the move and how the Texans current key front seven personnel could work.

Let me say if you fear outspoken or want only rah-rah right now, cease reading here.

Here's Williamson:

“I hate it. Some guys certainly could work in the 3-4 and a player like Williams would probably be very effective no matter what the system. But, to me, the Texans have a franchise type defensive player in Williams -- and Williams is a great 4-3 defensive end and probably an ordinary 3-4 defensive end. Not to mention, they invested the first overall pick in the guy.

“Wade uses more of an attacking 3-4 rather than a pure two-gapping -- like Jay Ratliff vs. Casey Hampton. Still, I don't see Williams as a difference maker in that system, as most ends in such a system are just role players and not top notch resources. Antonio Smith would be fine at end and Okoye might be okay as a quicker nose tackle, but I also don't like Okoye to hold up against constant double teams. And the Texans won't have the heavier take-on inside linebackers behind the nose tackle to attack guards and the run game in general.

"Cushing is ideal 4-3 strongside linebacker and could fit as a 3-4 outside linebacker, but he isn't the pass rusher of a DeMarcus Ware or Anthony Spencer. Again, it would work, but a waste of an ideal candidate for the 4-3.

“The 3-4 inside linebackers are generally a heavy banger and more of a free flowing guy. Ryans would be fine as the weakside free flowing inside linebacker -- but he isn't a banger.

“To me, instead of changing systems, I would keep the 4-3 (4-3 defenses can work in this league) and draft/sign secondary help like crazy and maybe another defensive lineman or two. Now, the secondary problems are just as massive as they were with a 4-3 system, but they have to find new pieces to make the transition even feasible.

“Is Wade THAT good of a coach to make all of this worth it – especially with Mario? I highly doubt it.”

DiehardChris
01-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Call me crazy, but I'll take 3-4 guru Wade Phillips' opinion over Scouts Inc.

Also, to be clear - LZ disagrees with Scouts Inc. on this, as do several other informed guys.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 04:56 PM
Call me crazy, but I'll take 3-4 guru Wade Phillips' opinion over Scouts Inc.

Also, to be clear - LZ disagrees with Scouts Inc. on this, as do several other informed guys.

I'm not debating it, just throwing out the story. I do agree with the article though...as does Mario Williams and some players already...that they have certain players that fit the 4-3 much better. You can always switch, I just don't think it is a plug in the pieces easy thing to do. Wade's also coached a 4-3 so there is no guarantee he is going for broke with the 3-4

BetaV1
01-06-2011, 04:57 PM
Judging from the past few seasons, the Texans don't fit the 4-3...

DiehardChris
01-06-2011, 05:00 PM
I'm not debating it, just throwing out the story. I do agree with the article though...as does Mario Williams and some players already...that they have certain players that fit the 4-3 much better. You can always switch, I just don't think it is a plug in the pieces easy thing to do. Wade's also coached a 4-3 so there is no guarantee he is going for broke with the 3-4

The players are just whining. It's what players do. They'll all fall in line. Kubiak has confirmed that Wade will in fact be changing the team to a 3-4.

ChampionTexan
01-06-2011, 05:00 PM
For what it's worth, Matt Williamson also referred to the Packers switch to a 3-4 prior to the 2009 season "A mistake", and wasn't excited about it

There is a lot of talent on defense, but I still contend that switching to a 3-4 scheme was a mistake and unnecessary overall.

LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview09/team?team=gnb)

Seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

2008 Defense ranked 20th in yardage and 22nd in points allowed
2009 Defense ranked 2nd in yardage and 7th in points allowed
2010 Defense ranked 5th in yardage and 2nd in points allowed

infantrycak
01-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Call me crazy, but I'll take 3-4 guru Wade Phillips' opinion over Scouts Inc.

Yup, especially when there are glaring errors in the analysis. "Heavier inside linebackers" - good job on that one since DeMeco is as big as any 3-4 LB out there and many are substantially lighter.

I do think it is funny to give any credit to this analysis which describes Mario as an elite franchise defensive player you should decide schemes on and yet some folks around here act like he is a bust or just another DE.

Dutchrudder
01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
For what it's worth, Matt Williamson also referred to the Packers switch to a 3-4 prior to the 2009 season "A mistake", and wasn't excited about it



LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview09/team?team=gnb)

Seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

2008 Defense ranked 20th in yardage and 22nd in points allowed
2009 Defense ranked 2nd in yardage and 7th in points allowed
2010 Defense ranked 5th in yardage and 2nd in points allowed

Funny thing about that, the Packers are now the only 3-4 defense in the NFC North. The Texans will now be the only 3-4 defense in the AFC South.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

dalemurphy
01-06-2011, 05:24 PM
Yup, especially when there are glaring errors in the analysis. "Heavier inside linebackers" - good job on that one since DeMeco is as big as any 3-4 LB out there and many are substantially lighter.

I do think it is funny to give any credit to this analysis which describes Mario as an elite franchise defensive player you should decide schemes on and yet some folks around here act like he is a bust or just another DE.

Yeah, I saw this earlier and thought it pretty silly. Perhaps it won't work but his analysis that:

we have no "heavier LBs", not realizing Cushing weighs 260lbs... that Mario will struggle (not realizing what Wade did with guys like Bruce Smith and Patrick Kerney)... but that Amobi Okoye may work out pretty well at NT.

Umm, yeah, I'm not sure this guy spent too much time on his research.

Dishman
01-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Has there ever been an NFL team switch from a 4-3 to 3-4 defense and make the playoffs the following year?

dalemurphy
01-06-2011, 05:25 PM
I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

I don't take issue with him suggesting the defense will struggle, it's his explainations to why that are laughable.

MojoX
01-06-2011, 05:26 PM
I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

Looking forward to your expressed opinion, but having less talent seems to imply you have little invested in any system. I don't find this guys analysis laughable as much as I find Phillips' analysis more credible.

Besides, someone already pointed out how wrong this guy was about GreenBay about whom he said the same thing.

Dutchrudder
01-06-2011, 05:27 PM
Yeah, I saw this earlier and thought it pretty silly. Perhaps it won't work but his analysis that:

we have no "heavier LBs", not realizing Cushing weighs 260lbs... that Mario will struggle (not realizing what Wade did with guys like Bruce Smith and Patrick Kerney)... but that Amobi Okoye may work out pretty well at NT.

Umm, yeah, I'm not sure this guy spent too much time on his research.

Maybe he got his info from Mel Kiper...

ChampionTexan
01-06-2011, 05:28 PM
I'm not debating it, just throwing out the story.

I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

So what exactly would your definition of "debating it" be?

The1ApplePie
01-06-2011, 05:31 PM
Yup, especially when there are glaring errors in the analysis. "Heavier inside linebackers" - good job on that one since DeMeco is as big as any 3-4 LB out there and many are substantially lighter.

I do think it is funny to give any credit to this analysis which describes Mario as an elite franchise defensive player you should decide schemes on and yet some folks around here act like he is a bust or just another DE.

Only one I agree with is Cush, I see him going inside.

Okoye as a NT had me laughing. Dude get's pushed back into the backers on a regular basis in the 4-3, no way he goes into the middle of a 3-4.

I would imagine that he gets traded before draft.

Thorn
01-06-2011, 05:32 PM
Jesus H. Pass Rushing Christ, what are they going to do in a 3-4, get worse? Our defense will be much better under Wade. We'll have to wait to see if that translates into playoffs tough.

Jackie Chiles
01-06-2011, 05:36 PM
Okoye as a NT had me laughing. Dude get's pushed back into the backers on a regular basis in the 4-3, no way he goes into the middle of a 3-4.

I would imagine that he gets traded before draft.

Only if we're lucky.

b0ng
01-06-2011, 05:37 PM
Has there ever been an NFL team switch from a 4-3 to 3-4 defense and make the playoffs the following year?

Packers did it in '09.

Dishman
01-06-2011, 05:42 PM
Packers did it in '09.

Then let's set the bar high and hope the coaching staff finds a way to make it happen.

Htownsportsfan
01-06-2011, 05:43 PM
I heard McClain call in today on 610 about his story tomorrow. He spoke with Wade to discuss the 3-4 he runs and the players currently on the roster. He mentioned two players on the squad Mitchell and Cody could play NT as it stands now. He mentioned since Dallas played the Texans earlier in the year he had already viewed a lot of film on them and has spent the last two days watching film.

I know all of the players we need to play the 3-4 at its peak. But I also think Wade must have seen things he liked about players on this D and how they will fit his system. I have no doubt Wade would he received other DC offers several which were probably more ideal than the Texans. He also has to know that he and the rest of his coaches dont have the usual 2-3 years to get things turned around. Yet he still took the position. Either he really wanted to be in Houston even if it was a bad choice or he believes he can win with the players on this Defense and some additions.

Wade damn sure wont sit back and let his DB's get burned over and over in the same coverage!

Dutchrudder
01-06-2011, 05:47 PM
So this got me thinking, what do the defensive fronts look like by division and throughout the NFL.

4-3 / 3-4

AFC South - 3/1, formerly all 4-3 until the Texans switched due to Wade
AFC North - 1/3, Bengals are the only 4-3 unless the Ravens count, but I think they are a 3-4
AFC West - 1/3, the Raiders are the only 4-3, KC switched to 3-4 in 2009
AFC East - 0/4, all teams run the 3-4

NFC South - 4/0, all team run the 4-3
NFC North - 3/1, the Packers run a 3-4
NFC West - 2/2, Seahawks/Rams run a 4-3, Cardinals/49ers run 3-4
NFC East - 2/2, Previously 3/1, but the Redskins changed to a 3-4 this year.


So if these numbers are correct, there are five 3-4 defenses in the AFC and eleven 4-3's. The NFC has eleven 3-4's and five 4-3's.
Overall, this means the NFL now has 16 3-4 teams and 16 4-3 teams if you include the Texans. Interesting symmetry as you often hear how 'easy' it is to get good 4-3 players in the draft.



*I'm going by what ESPN shows as their depth charts, so if it's wrong let me know.

b0ng
01-06-2011, 05:50 PM
Then let's set the bar high and hope the coaching staff finds a way to make it happen.

Pretty sure the Dolphins also ran a 4-3 when they went 1-15 in '07, then switched to a 3-4 under Sporano/Parcells in '08. It's not completely unfathomable to think that our defense can go from laughable to mediocre and get us into the playoffs.

J_R
01-06-2011, 05:54 PM
I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

'Damn that Ditch Right Now' (http://patchmc42.wordpress.com/2011/01/06/damn-that-ditch-right-now/)


I waited, although I knew what the result was going to be, I wanted to see who actually was going to get interviewed for the Defensive Coordinator job of the Houston Texans. Based on Kubiak’s words, he mentioned they would interview a few candidates and from there make a final decision. Question ? Who were the other candidates ? Why aren’t their names mentioned ? So I can only believe the trend of hiring “my buddies” within the Texans organization continues on. Now don’t get me wrong, I like Wade Phillips as the Defensive Coordinator but let’s not get all willy nilly jumping into every ditch we see in the Houston area trying to pull out an ox. It’s a few ditches out there that have waters with swift and powerful currents. Unless you plan on going downstream without a paddle like this team did this past season, I’d advise you to stay he hell with that ox.

In saying that, even though Phillips has had success in the NFL as a defensive minded guy, hiring him is not the only answer. Being the nerd I am I went back and looked at the rosters of the teams that had the best years statistically. Being fair, I pulled the Buffalo Bills roster from the year 2000, and the San Diego Chargers roster from 2006. Respectively the Bills were 15th that year, and the Chargers were 7th. Listed below are the rosters of both teams. Now compare them to the defensive roster of the Texans and as I’ve stated before, you must have talent in this league to win. Not All Pro’s everywhere, but players that are good at being role players and then give you a little extra every now and then. Here is the list.

San Diego Chargers:

Luis Castillo, Jacques Cesaire, Jamal Williams, Igor Olshansky, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, Randall Godfrey, Donnie Edwards, Quentin Jammer, Drayton Florence, Terrence Kiel, Marlon McCree.

Buffalo Bills:

Phil Hansen, Shawn Price, Ted Washington, Marcellus Wiley, Keith Newman, John Holecek, Sam Cowart, Sam Rogers, Antoine Winfield, Ken Irvin, Henry Jones, Keion Carpenter.

Taking a look at these rosters and comparing them to the Texans roster, the talent level on these teams related to the Texans isn’t even close. It’s also obvious the amount of moves the Texans need to make to get to the level of what these teams did. My point is, only one piece of the puzzle is in place, Wade. I’m not going to discount Mario, Demeco, Smith, Quinn, or even Cush, but all the other pieces need to be decided on and installed. This will not be an easy task.

The free agent period and the draft are very important for the Texans this year. I wonder if they realize this or if they think the hiring of Wade fixes all of their problems. In my opinion, no. Mr.McNair needs to watch over this very carefully and needs to open up his wallet a bit more. I will be observing this like the eye of Sauron,(for you Lord Of The Ring Fans) and everyone else should also. No getting in the ditch for me people, I’m gonna stay high and dry, at least for now. I’ll get in, but only if given the tools that will allow me to get the ox out and walking on level ground . I also need to be able to see that the ox knows better next time it faces going down into that ditch again. Hopefully the Texans will understand the same thing. If the Texans get this together then their ox will plow a straight furrow.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 06:04 PM
I think it is funny that people find his analysis laughable. Afterall, they are so loaded with top D players. In fact Marcus Coleman just had a blog piece about how the Bills and Charges had a lot more talent than the Texans when Wade took over. LZ posted it too. I'll post it when home

Here is the Coleman piece

Nevermind...thanks HoustonSports

So what exactly would your definition of "debating it" be?

It was posted as an informational piece. I obviously didn't realize that there are so many 3-4 "experts" here that know so much about all things defense. Just stating that the piece didn't seem so laughable to me considering the source and "sources" here.

If you ask me I agree with the piece and Coleman and in the long run I think Wade is going to have to run a hybrid with the talent and pieces they have. JMO...not professional.

texanchris
01-06-2011, 06:11 PM
McNair says he's never had more confidence in the team's coaches. He touted the experience of the 63-year-old Phillips, who's been a head coach in Dallas and Denver. He says Phillips will fix the Texans' defense without needing widespread changes to the roster."

:mariopalm:

Lucky
01-06-2011, 06:16 PM
Good players can play. Cushing, Ryans, and Williams will be fine. A guy like Okoye struggled in the 4-3, and he'll struggle even more in a 3-4.

The Texans have burned through a lot of draft picks the last 4 years, without a fair return. Still, I think better coaching can get more out of the current players than we've seen thus far. The organization will throw additional $$$ and draft picks at the defense. Will the net result see the Texans become a good defense in 2011? Not likely. But, you have to believe they will be much better than the disaster we saw in 2010.

Does that mean playoffs? Championship? I'm sure there will be another handy excuse when next year's failure arises. I just have to believe Phillips will halt the hemorrhaging on the defensive side. Not that I'm ready to commission his bust for Canton, but Phillips is likely the best (or at least most competent) coach the Texans have ever had.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Good players can play. Cushing, Ryans, and Williams will be fine. A guy like Okoye struggled in the 4-3, and he'll struggle even more in a 3-4.

The Texans have burned through a lot of draft picks the last 4 years, without a fair return. Still, I think better coaching can get more out of the current players than we've seen thus far. The organization will throw additional $$$ and draft picks at the defense. Will the net result see the Texans become a good defense in 2011? Not likely. But, you have to believe they will be much better than the disaster we saw in 2010.

Does that mean playoffs? Championship? I'm sure there will be another handy excuse when next year's failure arises. I just have to believe Phillips will halt the hemorrhaging on the defensive side. Not that I'm ready to commission his bust for Canton, but Phillips is likely the best (or at least most competent) coach the Texans have ever had.

I agree with alot of this. Wade knows D. He will implement it and have guys in position to succeed. My issue is threefold 1) will the guys in position be the right guys..from this group 2) will their talent evaluation bring guys in that fit(R. Smith/Kubes haven't been the best drafters) and 3) will the players buy in....they have to but a guy like Mario had trouble his first year in the 4-3 and how he should be prepared in it

ChampionTexan
01-06-2011, 06:34 PM
It was posted as an informational piece. I obviously didn't realize that there are so many 3-4 "experts" here that know so much about all things defense. Just stating that the piece didn't seem so laughable to me considering the source and "sources" here.

If you ask me I agree with the piece and Coleman and in the long run I think Wade is going to have to run a hybrid with the talent and pieces they have. JMO...not professional.

After reading the blog, I don't even see where Marcus Coleman is suggesting that the conversion to the 3-4 is his concern. He never so much as mentions the scheme/system. He never talks about who fits - or more importantly doesn't fit into a 3-4, he just comments on the amount of talent on the defensive side of the ball. I take it to say that while Wade may be an upgrade, folks shouldn't look at it as a fix-all due to the lack of talent. I see nothing in what he writes to indicate that there would be one word that was different if the announcement had been made the Wade was going to continue with the 4-3 as the primary allignment.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2011, 06:43 PM
After reading the blog, I don't even see where Marcus Coleman is suggesting that the conversion to the 3-4 is his concern. He never so much as mentions the scheme/system. He never talks about who fits - or more importantly doesn't fit into a 3-4, he just comments on the amount of talent on the defensive side of the ball. I take it to say that while Wade may be an upgrade, folks shouldn't look at it as a fix-all due to the lack of talent. I see nothing in what he writes to indicate that there would be one word that was different if the announcement had been made the Wade was going to continue with the 4-3 as the primary allignment.

I didn't say he said that. I said I agree with both pieces in ...that they don't exactly fit the scheme and that the talent isn't there. I wrote it just above.

valleytexfan
01-06-2011, 06:43 PM
Didn't Antonio play in a 3-4 for the Cards in their SB year?

And the linebackers we have will be better than formidable IMO: Cush and Connor Barwin (he could break out) outside with Demeco and Sharpton in the middle. Adibi and Diles (or Bentley) backing them up.

Playoffs
01-06-2011, 07:26 PM
Maybe he got his info from Mel Kiper...
Nah, Kiper is still hospitalized after the beating Todd McShay gave him on national television over Jimmy Clausen.

Dutchrudder
01-06-2011, 07:55 PM
Nah, Kiper is still hospitalized after the beating Todd McShay gave him on national television over Jimmy Clausen.

haha, it just seems every time I read a Mel Kiper article about why a team would pick X player, he has all his facts wrong about the team itself. Like one last year he said we ran a 3-4 and had a need at OLB. It's just kind of comical that someone who's job is to write about this stuff doesn't bother to check the team info before purporting his 'analysis'.

Texan4Ever
01-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Maybe the move to a 3-4 scheme might force the Texans to open up to grabbing guys in the FA?

Anyways, its good to see that Wade isn't sitting on his arse and is actually doing something. Hopefully, the rest of the Texans are working out or watching film along with the coaching staff.

JB
01-06-2011, 08:44 PM
haha, it just seems every time I read a Mel Kiper article about why a team would pick X player, he has all his facts wrong about the team itself. Like one last year he said we ran a 3-4 and had a need at OLB. It's just kind of comical that someone who's job is to write about this stuff doesn't bother to check the team info before purporting his 'analysis'.



OMG! He's prophetic!

Texan_Bill
01-06-2011, 08:51 PM
Call me crazy, but I'll take 3-4 guru Wade Phillips' opinion over Scouts Inc.

Also, to be clear - LZ disagrees with Scouts Inc. on this, as do several other informed guys.

Agreed on both Wade and LZ... LZ thinks the Texans have more pieces in place for a 3-4 than most do and I agree. That said, it doesn't mean that secondary won't get smoked again...

:gun:

In any event, the defense WILL be better than this history setting poor defense was this past season.

Dutchrudder
01-06-2011, 09:11 PM
OMG! He's prophetic!

Yeah, I guess he can just copy/paste it for his next mock...


Agreed on both Wade and LZ... LZ thinks the Texans have more pieces in place for a 3-4 than most do and I agree. That said, it doesn't mean that secondary won't get smoked again...

:gun:

In any event, the defense WILL be better than this history setting poor defense was this past season.

Yeah, they probably will be smoked quite a bit and I hope no one will be surprised when it happens, but they should have some improvement next year. However, I'm thinking the defense will be more aggressive under Wade and we might wind up with the sort of defense New Orleans had last year; big risk, big reward. Might turn into a high turnover D due to the shortcomings of the secondary that forces us to get after the QB as much as possible.

Texan_Bill
01-06-2011, 09:23 PM
Yeah, I guess he can just copy/paste it for his next mock...




Yeah, they probably will be smoked quite a bit and I hope no one will be surprised when it happens, but they should have some improvement next year. However, I'm thinking the defense will be more aggressive under Wade and we might wind up with the sort of defense New Orleans had last year; big risk, big reward. Might turn into a high turnover D due to the shortcomings of the secondary that forces us to get after the QB as much as possible.

Yeah, absolutely the "D" will be more aggressive under Wade and that will help the young corners and the old safeties. It just won't be spectacular and that's fine. It should turn into a defense that ranks somewhere between 15 and 20(ish) which is a huge improvement over this historically pathetic defense. Hell, everyone bitching about losing Dunta and how well the Falcons did this season don't realize that the Falcons are only ranked 16th in overall defense and 22nd against the pass.

Goatcheese
01-06-2011, 11:25 PM
I think the Texans can switch to a 3-4 front fairly easily if they can get a NT. Merriman played his best football at 280+ lbs so Mario isn't a problem at SAM. He seems to prefer the outside rush anyway. If Barwin comes back healthy he is an ideal 3-4 WIL. Ryans and Cushing are the perfect pair to play in the middle. Anybody who says they're too small needs their head examined.

On the line Smith and Okoye can handle the DE positions just fine. Okoye is about the same size as Gary Walker and seems to prefer rushing outside the guard more than inside. Moving him over the tackle and assigning him a rush lane where he was already rushing could help his career and close the gap he leaves when he takes the outside.

That just leaves finding a starting caliber NT to have a more than serviceable 3-4 front.

machineo
01-07-2011, 05:48 AM
Packers did it in '09.

Packers also benefited from a very fruitful draft that landed them their key NT and OLB. Green Bay jumped around 18 spots to #2 overall defense, but they did lose Kampmann in the transition. Any team making the switch would be lucky to get half the improvement GB did.

HoustonFrog
01-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Yeah, absolutely the "D" will be more aggressive under Wade and that will help the young corners and the old safeties. It just won't be spectacular and that's fine. It should turn into a defense that ranks somewhere between 15 and 20(ish) which is a huge improvement over this historically pathetic defense. Hell, everyone bitching about losing Dunta and how well the Falcons did this season don't realize that the Falcons are only ranked 16th in overall defense and 22nd against the pass.

Maybe I'm naive. I know Wade specializes in the 3-4. But I think that D showed with some aggressive playmakers that it could work...the 4-3 when Cushing was training and an experienced corner was back there. Wasn't perfect but they moved up. Not sure if you don't load up on DBs through FA and draft and try to mix it up.

b0ng
01-07-2011, 07:34 AM
Packers also benefited from a very fruitful draft that landed them their key NT and OLB. Green Bay jumped around 18 spots to #2 overall defense, but they did lose Kampmann in the transition. Any team making the switch would be lucky to get half the improvement GB did.

Dolphins did it with even less talent and they had to sign their NT in free agency. Also, the Bronco's in 2008 went from 4-3 to 3-4 and went from dead last in defense in most statistical categories to at least middle of the road if not better.

More and more I believe the ease of a transition more depends on the quality of the coach. Sure, the availability of players is a factor but Phillips is talking like he's got the majority of the difficult-to-fill positions on this roster right now (I still don't believe the NT is on the roster, but if he thinks Mitchell will work then he's the man).

Rey
01-07-2011, 07:55 AM
Wade says his 3-4 is closer to a 4-3....

So....I think that is something important to remember when thinking about personnel...

I wish Barwin wouldn't have gotten hurt....I would have really liked to see him rushing from one OLB spot and Mark Anderson rushing from the other...

playa465
01-07-2011, 08:01 AM
I am optimistic and worried too...we have guys coming off injuries who we EXPECT to perform at a similar or higher level while learning a new scheme. The bottom line is if we don't get pressure on the QB, again we will get eaten alive. In the run game if the NT doesnt command that double team OR be a playmaker, the OL will get to the 2nd level (the ILBs) and a make it very difficult. I've been guilty of letting the kool-aid blind me b/c as a fan I always want us to come out on top but honestly I don't know if we're as talented on D as we think. I still have nightmares on which one of our LBs can cover. Our pass D, well no comment (too many posts on that). On the run side of things, I look back to 2009 and how we played well when Pollard arrived. Well in the NFL, teams are expected to continuously improve. So if the SS is in the box to help against the run, what do you do? Make them honor the pass and eliminate the advantage against the run, everyone knew Pollard was a liability there. So in hindsight it leads me to believe why we drafted KJ. The Texans seem to favor CBs who have strong capabilities in supporting against the run. With all this talent available to defend against the run, what in the Hades were the coaches thinking in the pass D? For some reason the staff thought we would be adequate in defending the pass with young corners, an often injured FS and a SS who is weak in coverage. I hope Wade comes in and evaluates on the actual capabilities of each player in the position they will be playing and not based on what they assume the player will be. Either way its going to be tough.

gtexan02
01-07-2011, 08:08 AM
Years ago we all clamored for the 4-3. Now we're back wishing for a 3-4.

Im sure in 3-4 years we'll all be cheering the switch back to the 4-3 again.

Texans seasaw fun

El Tejano
01-07-2011, 08:08 AM
Didn't Antonio play in a 3-4 for the Cards in their SB year?

And the linebackers we have will be better than formidable IMO: Cush and Connor Barwin (he could break out) outside with Demeco and Sharpton in the middle. Adibi and Diles (or Bentley) backing them up.

I've always had the feeling that he was more fit for a 3-4 pass rushing OLB than in the 4-3.

El Tejano
01-07-2011, 08:12 AM
Maybe the move to a 3-4 scheme might force the Texans to open up to grabbing guys in the FA?
Anyways, its good to see that Wade isn't sitting on his arse and is actually doing something. Hopefully, the rest of the Texans are working out or watching film along with the coaching staff.

Yall know the player I spoke with a couple of day ago right? Well, he did say that bringing Wade in would mean players wanting to come to Houston vs. us having to ask them to come because those players know how he coaches and know they will be put in a position to succeed.

Also I believe Olshanksy from Dallas, who played in Wade's system in San Diego, might be available.

El Tejano
01-07-2011, 08:24 AM
Years ago we all clamored for the 4-3. Now we're back wishing for a 3-4.

Im sure in 3-4 years we'll all be cheering the switch back to the 4-3 again.

Texans seasaw fun

You are so right. However, I have always said this since last season. If we had even the defense we had in 2002 (that D shut down Pittsburgh by themselves in Pittsburgh) our team would've made the playoffs two years in a row by now.

IDEXAN
01-07-2011, 08:25 AM
Packers also benefited from a very fruitful draft that landed them their key NT and OLB. Green Bay jumped around 18 spots to #2 overall defense, but they did lose Kampmann in the transition. Any team making the switch would be lucky to get half the improvement GB did.
But keep in mind we don't need that massive NT because Wade dosn't run the traditional 2-gap 3-4 that former Texans HC and Packers DC Dom Capers does. On the other hand it would be great to grab somebody like Clay Matthews - maybe in this Draft, huh ?
I do agree with the Scouts Inc. guy about Mario & Cushing - they are
classis 4-3 players, though both are definitely talented and versitile enough to play in a 3-4. But I think this puts Mario in play so far as being involved in a possible trade, since at 26 he's still very young and lots of 4-3 teams would be interested in maximizing his talents in their defense.

El Tejano
01-07-2011, 08:26 AM
Dolphins did it with even less talent and they had to sign their NT in free agency. Also, the Bronco's in 2008 went from 4-3 to 3-4 and went from dead last in defense in most statistical categories to at least middle of the road if not better.



Well I think alot of that was Joey Porter too though. Dude would live in our backfield. It would be nice to get that kind of player on our team. Is Arizona going to let him go?

BattleRedToro
01-07-2011, 11:55 AM
But keep in mind we don't need that massive NT because Wade dosn't run the traditional 2-gap 3-4 that former Texans HC and Packers DC Dom Capers does. On the other hand it would be great to grab somebody like Clay Matthews - maybe in this Draft, huh ?
I do agree with the Scouts Inc. guy about Mario & Cushing - they are
classis 4-3 players, though both are definitely talented and versitile enough to play in a 3-4. But I think this puts Mario in play so far as being involved in a possible trade, since at 26 he's still very young and lots of 4-3 teams would be interested in maximizing his talents in their defense.

If Bruce Smith could play for most of his career in a 3-4 Defense, then I don't see why Mario could not.

b0ng
01-07-2011, 02:09 PM
Well I think alot of that was Joey Porter too though. Dude would live in our backfield. It would be nice to get that kind of player on our team. Is Arizona going to let him go?

Porter is old and washed-up. I'd rather us find "The Next" Joey Porter.

The1ApplePie
01-07-2011, 02:17 PM
Didn't Scouts Inc. convince Jevan Snead that he would be a top-10 pick?

Jackie Chiles
01-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Didn't Scouts Inc. convince Jevan Snead that he would be a top-10 pick?

Andre Woodson too.

steelbtexan
01-07-2011, 06:36 PM
But keep in mind we don't need that massive NT because Wade dosn't run the traditional 2-gap 3-4 that former Texans HC and Packers DC Dom Capers does. On the other hand it would be great to grab somebody like Clay Matthews - maybe in this Draft, huh ?
I do agree with the Scouts Inc. guy about Mario & Cushing - they are
classis 4-3 players, though both are definitely talented and versitile enough to play in a 3-4. But I think this puts Mario in play so far as being involved in a possible trade, since at 26 he's still very young and lots of 4-3 teams would be interested in maximizing his talents in their defense.

I agree with you about Mario. I would trade him in a package if it meant the Texans could move up and take Peterson. Or if they could end up with J.J. Watt,Miller and a 3rd rd pick. It's possible this could happen.

If Mario chooses not to buy into the 3-4.

mussop
01-07-2011, 06:40 PM
Dolphins did it with even less talent and they had to sign their NT in free agency. Also, the Bronco's in 2008 went from 4-3 to 3-4 and went from dead last in defense in most statistical categories to at least middle of the road if not better.

More and more I believe the ease of a transition more depends on the quality of the coach. Sure, the availability of players is a factor but Phillips is talking like he's got the majority of the difficult-to-fill positions on this roster right now (I still don't believe the NT is on the roster, but if he thinks Mitchell will work then he's the man).

Dont forget the Jets when Ryan came in.

DocBar
01-07-2011, 06:44 PM
Scouts Inc. YAWN. I get better analysis in here.

TexanBacker93
01-07-2011, 09:03 PM
Packers did it in '09.

Phillips has done it twice himself.

2001 & 2002 with the Falcons.
2003 & 2004 with the Chargers.

dickieb
01-09-2011, 01:04 PM
I wonder how the AFC South teams individually faired (W-L) against 3-4 defenses this year?

Colts-?
Jags-?
Texans-?
Titans-?

Anyone have these #'s?

b0ng
01-09-2011, 01:14 PM
I wonder how the AFC South teams individually faired (W-L) against 3-4 defenses this year?

Colts-?
Jags-?
Texans-?
Titans-?

Anyone have these #'s?

But how many teams really lose simply because they are playing against a defense that runs a 3-4 alignment? I think knowing how many times Manning has lost to a 3-4 defense would be moot if ours is about as good as it was 5 years ago.

I mean how many teams lost to the Capers led Texans because they ran a 3-4?

dickieb
01-09-2011, 01:22 PM
I hear ya, just wondering with all the other stats flying around. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is the Houston Texans W-L record!