PDA

View Full Version : Who decided to go young in the DBs


Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 03:03 PM
I still don't know, but today Frank Bush took the fall for them.

Think about what we did to him. We took a team that had an above average to good defense last year and then stripped him of anything meaningful in the secondary.

I know this won't be a popular opnion... I'm good with that, but what did we expect? He was asked to repeat his performance with a TOTAL of 7 years of experience between 6 DBs. The closest thing we gave him to help was grabbing a guy that Miami cut in order to make room for a guy who never played a down for them because of injury.

Is Smith to blame? I don't know. Is Kubiak to blame? I don't know.

Cushing was obviously a problem and Barwin etc etc.. those are excuses though... injuries happen... the problem is that you litreally took away any veterans at the CB position and left Bush with a washed up FS who can't make up for the Pollards lack of coverage skills... a 2nd year guy in Nolan who made playse but was... well a 2nd year player.. and then a bunch of Rookies and 2nd year players at CB. That is one position where playing time seems to be a requirement. How often do you bring a guy in as a rookie, even a top talent, and have him play exceptional? Even Daunta's rookie season, and he had a ton of experience mentoring him by the way, he had slip ups.

And another thing. How does anyone jump on Jackson for his season. Who is the vet that he turns to for individual, one on one tips in the matchups he sees? Who is his mentor. If the decision to go young was made and the expectation was that the defense would come anywhere close to the last 13 weeks of last season then that person should be fired today. I don't care if its Gary, Frank, Bob, Rick or hell Matt Schaub...

Mike

Honoring Earl 34
01-03-2011, 03:11 PM
They should have caught on after watching Jackson in camp .

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01437/MAN-ON-FIRE_1437098c.jpg

Corrosion
01-03-2011, 03:13 PM
I still don't know, but today Frank Bush took the fall for them.

Think about what we did to him. We took a team that had an above average to good defense last year and then stripped him of anything meaningful in the secondary.

I know this won't be a popular opnion... I'm good with that, but what did we expect? He was asked to repeat his performance with a TOTAL of 7 years of experience between 6 DBs. The closest thing we gave him to help was grabbing a guy that Miami cut in order to make room for a guy who never played a down for them because of injury.

Is Smith to blame? I don't know. Is Kubiak to blame? I don't know.

Cushing was obviously a problem and Barwin etc etc.. those are excuses though... injuries happen... the problem is that you litreally took away any veterans at the CB position and left Bush with a washed up FS who can't make up for the Pollards lack of coverage skills... a 2nd year guy in Nolan who made playse but was... well a 2nd year player.. and then a bunch of Rookies and 2nd year players at CB. That is one position where playing time seems to be a requirement. How often do you bring a guy in as a rookie, even a top talent, and have him play exceptional? Even Daunta's rookie season, and he had a ton of experience mentoring him by the way, he had slip ups.

And another thing. How does anyone jump on Jackson for his season. Who is the vet that he turns to for individual, one on one tips in the matchups he sees? Who is his mentor. If the decision to go young was made and the expectation was that the defense would come anywhere close to the last 13 weeks of last season then that person should be fired today. I don't care if its Gary, Frank, Bob, Rick or hell Matt Schaub...

Mike

Unless you are part of the orginization , all we can do is guess as to who made those decisions. I said as much in another post asking many of the same questions .
I dont have the answers .... although I'd like to believe that it was Rick Smith's decision.

They should have caught on after watching Jackson in camp .


FWIW he played pretty well in camp .... but camp isnt an NFL game.

The1ApplePie
01-03-2011, 03:14 PM
It's worked for Kanas City

Of course they have one of the best GM's in the NFL and Romeo calling the defense.

That and they jettisoned Bernard "Less Talented Roy Williams" Pollard

CretorFrigg
01-03-2011, 03:19 PM
We don't know who made those decisions. It could very well have been Frank Bush's decision. I find it hard to believe that Bush didn't have any say in that matter.

And, as many of us have previously discussed and debated, Frank Bush places the players in a position to fail. It's not just the players' ineptitude.

Honoring Earl 34
01-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Unless you are part of the orginization , all we can do is guess as to who made those decisions. I said as much in another post asking many of the same questions .
I dont have the answers .... although I'd like to believe that it was Rick Smith's decision.



FWIW he played pretty well in camp .... but camp isnt an NFL game.

They wrote a bunch on him , about how AJ was working with him . I think he's kinda slow . I think you can train for the 40 ( make your money ) and get it down some but can you play fast .

dalemurphy
01-03-2011, 03:30 PM
I still don't know, but today Frank Bush took the fall for them.

Think about what we did to him. We took a team that had an above average to good defense last year and then stripped him of anything meaningful in the secondary.

I know this won't be a popular opnion... I'm good with that, but what did we expect? He was asked to repeat his performance with a TOTAL of 7 years of experience between 6 DBs. The closest thing we gave him to help was grabbing a guy that Miami cut in order to make room for a guy who never played a down for them because of injury.

Is Smith to blame? I don't know. Is Kubiak to blame? I don't know.Cushing was obviously a problem and Barwin etc etc.. those are excuses though... injuries happen... the problem is that you litreally took away any veterans at the CB position and left Bush with a washed up FS who can't make up for the Pollards lack of coverage skills... a 2nd year guy in Nolan who made playse but was... well a 2nd year player.. and then a bunch of Rookies and 2nd year players at CB. That is one position where playing time seems to be a requirement. How often do you bring a guy in as a rookie, even a top talent, and have him play exceptional? Even Daunta's rookie season, and he had a ton of experience mentoring him by the way, he had slip ups.

And another thing. How does anyone jump on Jackson for his season. Who is the vet that he turns to for individual, one on one tips in the matchups he sees? Who is his mentor. If the decision to go young was made and the expectation was that the defense would come anywhere close to the last 13 weeks of last season then that person should be fired today. I don't care if its Gary, Frank, Bob, Rick or hell Matt Schaub...

Mike

Mike,

I wrote about how difficult it is to assess responsibility in the organization last week and also put together a little laundry list of the enormous mistakes someone has been making: http://www.texansbullblog.com/answer-replaced/news/

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 03:37 PM
It's worked for Kanas City

Of course they have one of the best GM's in the NFL and Romeo calling the defense.

That and they jettisoned Bernard "Less Talented Roy Williams" Pollard

Well both of their corners were going into their third year and they have a guy with 6 years experience at the CB position.

Going into the season our 4th round pick from last year and our first round pick from this year were slated as our starters. Moulden was our "aged vet" with an eye popping two years of experience.

By the way, the last two years KC finished 27th (2008) and 21st (last year) while their young guys learned the system. In 08 they gave up 3750 yards... we gave up about 30 more ypg this year than they did that year.

I'm just saying.

Mike

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Mike,

I wrote about how difficult it is to assess responsibility in the organization last week and also put together a little laundry list of the enormous mistakes someone has been making: http://www.texansbullblog.com/answer-replaced/news/

Yeah, I know its impossible to tell who is responsible for them. I'm just thinking that if I were Frank Bush and they came to me and said "We want to get to the playoffs this year... by the way we're firing anyone who's had more than 2 years experience in the secondary... hope that's alright" I don't think he would have signed off off on that. But we'll never know.

I remember when I talked to Dan Reeves a while back about the situation with Mario/VY/Bush his account of how things went was very very different from how I would have imagined it.


Mike

dalemurphy
01-03-2011, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I know its impossible to tell who is responsible for them. I'm just thinking that if I were Frank Bush and they came to me and said "We want to get to the playoffs this year... by the way we're firing anyone who's had more than 2 years experience in the secondary... hope that's alright" I don't think he would have signed off off on that. But we'll never know.

I remember when I talked to Dan Reeves a while back about the situation with Mario/VY/Bush his account of how things went was very very different from how I would have imagined it.

Mike


Please tell me?!!!!

Runner
01-03-2011, 04:40 PM
Smith's inability to negotiate a contract played its part. It may have forced the "decision" on the the Texans.

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 04:43 PM
Please tell me?!!!!

I wrote a thread about it a while back and have the audio somewhere. I called the guys on late hits on sirius radio and Mr. Reeves was on, so I asked him about what happened. I downloaded the audio that night, let me see if I still have it. I should remember (it was actually very cool and he took like 4 or 5 minutes to explain it to me. I know I was shocked, but this is 4 years ago or so and I don't want to give you the wrong details.

Mike

4Texans
01-03-2011, 05:00 PM
I still don't know, but today Frank Bush took the fall for them.

Think about what we did to him. We took a team that had an above average to good defense last year and then stripped him of anything meaningful in the secondary.

I know this won't be a popular opnion... I'm good with that, but what did we expect? He was asked to repeat his performance with a TOTAL of 7 years of experience between 6 DBs. The closest thing we gave him to help was grabbing a guy that Miami cut in order to make room for a guy who never played a down for them because of injury.

Is Smith to blame? I don't know. Is Kubiak to blame? I don't know.



I said this on another thread. "A good GM doesn't let this happen". I've always been in Kubiaks corner, but I would have no problem if McNair fired him today. In saying that, if you're going to fire Kubiak, then you have to fire Smith in the same breath. There's no way I let Smith head up a search for a new HC.

Regardless, now we get to see what they come up with for hiring a new Defensive staff, and getting through the CBA negotiations. If we don't make the playoffs next year, then McNair needs to clean house and get a proven Football guy to run the organization.

IDEXAN
01-03-2011, 05:08 PM
I remember when I talked to Dan Reeves a while back about the situation with Mario/VY/Bush his account of how things went was very very different from how I would have imagined it.

You're claiming to be privy to the definitive explanation from a good personal friend of Bob McNairs, an insider as it were, about what went into the Texans decision in their 2006 #1 pick ?

TexansFanatic
01-03-2011, 05:16 PM
I wrote a thread about it a while back and have the audio somewhere. I called the guys on late hits on sirius radio and Mr. Reeves was on, so I asked him about what happened. I downloaded the audio that night, let me see if I still have it. I should remember (it was actually very cool and he took like 4 or 5 minutes to explain it to me. I know I was shocked, but this is 4 years ago or so and I don't want to give you the wrong details.

Mike

Damn, I'd love to hear that too. Please post it ASAP. Thanks.

Dishman
01-03-2011, 05:18 PM
We took a team that had an above average to good defense last year and then stripped him of anything meaningful in the secondary.


And the Texans PR machine is running around telling people that all we needed if a top defense to match our top offense. Do they take every single one of us as suckers? Last year the offense was rated in the top 5, I think, and the defense was rated light-years ahead of the 2010 defense. Top 15 defense, I think. We still could not even muster 10 wins. Why will 2011 be different? Wade Phillips? PFFT!

So, did the stripping of the secondary blow up the defense this badly?

Or is there more to this?

Wolf
01-03-2011, 05:47 PM
Crucial turnovers caused that. Kris Brown's misses, Slaton's fumbing, Chris Brown's stupid pass

Hervoyel
01-03-2011, 06:02 PM
I don't know who decided to go young with the DB's but I know one thing. He was hired by the guy who decided to go inexperienced and inexpensive with the coaches so it shouldn't come as much of a surprise how that turned out.

DexmanC
01-03-2011, 06:04 PM
And the Texans PR machine is running around telling people that all we needed if a top defense to match our top offense. Do they take every single one of us as suckers? Last year the offense was rated in the top 5, I think, and the defense was rated light-years ahead of the 2010 defense. Top 15 defense, I think. We still could not even muster 10 wins. Why will 2011 be different? Wade Phillips? PFFT!

So, did the stripping of the secondary blow up the defense this badly?

Or is there more to this?

Will a better defense help our "elite" offense score more than 7 points
in the first half?

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 06:43 PM
You're claiming to be privy to the definitive explanation from a good personal friend of Bob McNairs, an insider as it were, about what went into the Texans decision in their 2006 #1 pick ?

Well if by calling the guys on late hits and hearing Dan Reeves answer my question you call that inside information then me and a few million listeners have inside information.

Mike

Runner
01-03-2011, 06:46 PM
Well if by calling the guys on late hits and hearing Dan Reeves answer my question you call that inside information then me and a few million listeners have inside information.

Mike

You da man!

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Will a better defense help our "elite" offense score more than 7 points
in the first half?

Lol. Weren't you an Oilers fan? Then you should remember that how much you put up in a half is irrelevant. It doesn't matter when they are scored either. When the clock hits 0:00 for the 4th time in the game whoever has more points wins. First half points are worth no more or no less than second half points. If both teams have the same digits on the scoreboard after the fourth time they have a whole scenario for that called overtime. Then they have the tie.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many the offense scored in the first half, its how many they put up after the game is over. In our case it was enough that a team with an average defense would expect to win.

A better defense would make the 24-30pts this offense put up most games enough to win. Whether the offense was elite or not is, i suppose, up for debate. Whether an average defense puts us at 9 or 10 wins.... anyone who has to debate that...

And as we saw, unless we were playing a backup QB... even if the offense put up 20 in the first half pts the other team was going to come back anyways.

Mike

thunderkyss
01-03-2011, 07:32 PM
Unless you are part of the orginization , all we can do is guess as to who made those decisions. I said as much in another post asking many of the same questions .
I dont have the answers .... although I'd like to believe that it was Rick Smith's decision.



FWIW he played pretty well in camp .... but camp isnt an NFL game.

I don't think the "cleaning" is complete, until Rick Smith gets canned.

I say that, because if this "franchise" is run the way a franchise is supposed to be run, it's Rick Smith's job to get quality personnel on this team, not just at the starter position, but for depth as well.

The biggest problem in our secondary, IMHO, is that our safeties weren't very safe.

Our LBs are worthless in coverage.

But the icing on the cake, was dumping Okam 5-6 games into the season. Did we bring anyone in to push him in the offseason? What about last year? Yet we kept him on the roster until we realized...... we screwed the pooch again.

Molden too. We cut ties with Jaques Reeves, keep Molden, but don't use him for anything but special teams? We went & got a CB off the street to take meaningful snaps in real games...... but we keep Molden on this team?

Really?

I can't blame Frank Bush for this, because most of these guys were on the roster before he was the DC.

& what the heck is Ray Rhodes doing if he isn't signing off on these players? & if he is signing off...... why is he still here?

Ray Rhodes &/or Rick Smith should be gone as well.

& I say this, because Kubiak seems to be safe. If we aren't going to blame the HC for these personnel moves..... that kinda leaves the GM, or any senior defensive staff (Ray Rhodes).... more than Bush.

Wrong place, wrong time..... sold out by his "friends"

Dishman
01-03-2011, 07:40 PM
Crucial turnovers caused that. Kris Brown's misses, Slaton's fumbing, Chris Brown's stupid pass

We had crucial turnovers again this year. Does swapping out personnel on defense fix that? I'm sure there will be plenty of more of the same for you to hang your hat on next season, as well. What will make this team rise above some of the adversities all teams face during the year?

thunderkyss
01-03-2011, 09:28 PM
I said this on another thread. "A good GM doesn't let this happen". I've always been in Kubiaks corner, but I would have no problem if McNair fired him today. In saying that, if you're going to fire Kubiak, then you have to fire Smith in the same breath. There's no way I let Smith head up a search for a new HC.

Regardless, now we get to see what they come up with for hiring a new Defensive staff, and getting through the CBA negotiations. If we don't make the playoffs next year, then McNair needs to clean house and get a proven Football guy to run the organization.

This is why I don't believe it is over, with the canning of Frank Bush. The decisions that led to our failure on D, go way beyond FB.

I don't want to see McNair screw up a third HC/GM decision, so I would rather he can one or the other. It doesn't matter which to me, but one or the other has to go. Looks like he's hitching his horse to Kubiak.... fine, then Rick Smith has to go.

Had he sworn allegiance to Rick Smith, I'd have said Kubiak has got to go..... but I feel better about Kubiak as a head coach than I do about Rick Smith being a GM. Lesser of two evils, that's what I'm thinking.

Get a GM to make the decisions that a good GM does.. I don't think it was Todd Haley's idea to hire Wiess & Crennel... I think Pioli saw a golden opportunity & jumped on it, knowing his head coach needed the help.

Shanahan in Denver knew not to let Dennison go... he could have hired his own damn son in Denver if that's what he really wanted to do, instead of "letting" Kubiak bust his cherry.

& the best we can do for CB/S over the last 5 years, is Quinn, Bennett, Reeves, Molden, Nolan, Barber????????

Anyway..... I expect Rick Smith to be parting ways with the Texans soon...... may not be till after the draft, if they do things the way he did it with Capers... but soon none the less.

thunderkyss
01-03-2011, 09:33 PM
Damn, I'd love to hear that too. Please post it ASAP. Thanks.

If I remember right, Reeves first assessment was that we could win with the talent Casserly brought in.

That included David Carr.

But if Dan was doing our draft, he would have picked Vince. However it was days after Vince announced he was eligible for the draft, that the Texans extended Carr's contract, making it clear that we weren't going to draft a QB with that pick.

So I don't know when in the timeline that Reeves "told" McNair to draft Vince...... it might have been after we had already extended Carr.

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 09:56 PM
We had crucial turnovers again this year. Does swapping out personnel on defense fix that? I'm sure there will be plenty of more of the same for you to hang your hat on next season, as well. What will make this team rise above some of the adversities all teams face during the year?

The difference though, is that every turnover was crucial this year. In fact, every drive that didn't end with points, and usually touch downs, was a problem.

I don't know I go back and forth on Kubiak. Last year we were 9-7 and I felt like we had a shot to win most games after the first 3. This year I felt that with the lack of talent in our secondary we were lucky to win any game after our first 3.

I do think that if we fix the defense that this is a playoff team. I just don't know that the DC was the problem. Were we THAT predictable that suddenly our schemes were vanilla? I don't think so. I think the talent dropped off (Cushing and the secondary mostly) and that we paid the price.

Mike

Texanmike02
01-03-2011, 09:59 PM
If I remember right, Reeves first assessment was that we could win with the talent Casserly brought in.

That included David Carr.

But if Dan was doing our draft, he would have picked Vince. However it was days after Vince announced he was eligible for the draft, that the Texans extended Carr's contract, making it clear that we weren't going to draft a QB with that pick.

So I don't know when in the timeline that Reeves "told" McNair to draft Vince...... it might have been after we had already extended Carr.

I do vividly remember Reeves telling me that he thought we made a mistake picking Mario. He said that the night before the draft when he heard we had come to a contract agreement with Mario that he turned to somebody and said "They are going to regret that".

He also said he was out of the decision process by that time and kind of credited Casserly with the selection. I'm still looking for the clip. I have to have emailed it to someone I thought it was so cool. I could have sworn that I posted a link here but I don't know where.

Mike

Norg
01-03-2011, 10:47 PM
I don't know but I think Jackson will be a he'll of a player talk about trail by fire lol

michaelm
01-03-2011, 11:07 PM
Ignore this post... replied in the wrong thread.

badboy
01-04-2011, 01:48 PM
I remember the heat I took after posting a thread immediately after the thread that KJ was wrong for this defense. I hope we draft corner Brandon Harris (hopefully after a trade down), move Sherrod McMannis to #2 CB, move Quinn to FS and Jackson fits in whereever he can.

hollywood_texan
01-04-2011, 02:39 PM
The difference though, is that every turnover was crucial this year. In fact, every drive that didn't end with points, and usually touch downs, was a problem.

I don't know I go back and forth on Kubiak. Last year we were 9-7 and I felt like we had a shot to win most games after the first 3. This year I felt that with the lack of talent in our secondary we were lucky to win any game after our first 3.

I do think that if we fix the defense that this is a playoff team. I just don't know that the DC was the problem. Were we THAT predictable that suddenly our schemes were vanilla? I don't think so. I think the talent dropped off (Cushing and the secondary mostly) and that we paid the price.

Mike

The common thread I see regarding 2009 and 2010 is that the Texans could not finish strong and play consistent on the offensive side of the ball.

So, if the defense gets better, we'll still have the same result as 2011 that we had in 2009.

Kubiak is a good coach and can find some talent. But, I don't think he is a head coach.

HOU-TEX
01-04-2011, 02:45 PM
I was kind of surprised when we released Reeves. I mean, he was at least in the vicinity of the WR. He never turned to locate the ball, but there was always a chance the ball would hit him in the back of the head.

infantrycak
01-04-2011, 02:46 PM
The common thread I see regarding 2009 and 2010 is that the Texans could not finish strong and play consistent on the offensive side of the ball.

So, if the defense gets better, we'll still have the same result as 2011 that we had in 2009.

9-7 with one of the 4 extra wins coming against Indy would have had the Texans as division champion this year.

I was kind of surprised when we released Reeves. I mean, he was at least in the vicinity of the WR. He never turned to locate the ball, but there was always a chance the ball would hit him in the back of the head.

That had me scratching my head as well although his name was Mudd around here with many fans.

Texan_Bill
01-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Who decided to go young in the DBs


Dunta decided by his act(s) of douche.baggery!


:hides:

TheCD
01-04-2011, 03:02 PM
I was kind of surprised when we released Reeves. I mean, he was at least in the vicinity of the WR. He never turned to locate the ball, but there was always a chance the ball would hit him in the back of the head.

:spit:

So true...so true...

HOU-TEX
01-04-2011, 03:04 PM
9-7 with one of the 4 extra wins coming against Indy would have had the Texans as division champion this year.



That had me scratching my head as well although his name was Mudd around here with many fans.

Maybe it was the reason Gibbs was whacked? Maybe he wanted to work with youth as he did in KC? Dunno

Then again, I don't think Reeves was ever picked up after he left us. Not that that means much considering we were the worst passing D in NFL history.

Texanmike02
01-04-2011, 03:06 PM
I was kind of surprised when we released Reeves. I mean, he was at least in the vicinity of the WR. He never turned to locate the ball, but there was always a chance the ball would hit him in the back of the head.

He was actually better about it in his second year. He broke his leg in the preseason the next year though and we never saw much from him.

Mike

HOU-TEX
01-04-2011, 03:09 PM
He was actually better about it in his second year. He broke his leg in the preseason the next year though and we never saw much from him.

Mike

Yeah, iirc, they started mixing in Quin a bit more when Reeves and Bennett were struggling. Eh, maybe I'm misremembering

Mr. White
01-04-2011, 03:14 PM
Well if by calling the guys on late hits and hearing Dan Reeves answer my question you call that inside information then me and a few million listeners have inside information.

Mike

Interesting. Here's (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32579) the thread that your phone call spawned from back when this was the official board.

4 year old thread, but the forum was in a tailspin back then too.

hollywood_texan
01-04-2011, 03:42 PM
9-7 with one of the 4 extra wins coming against Indy would have had the Texans as division champion this year.



My point is, in 2011, "would have" will still be the key phrase regarding the critiquing of Texans performance.

The Texans offense does not follow through under Kubiak and continually fail to play a complete game. Which is the key thread that I see that McNair has decided not to change. However, 2011 offensive stats will still provide the reason for keeping Kubiak.

That is my prediction.

We'll see if it happens.