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View Full Version : Where would Matt Schaub be without kubiak


GlenRice
01-02-2011, 02:05 PM
Why do you think leinart came here knowing he would have no chance to start.
Without kubiak schaub would be an average qb. Thoughts.

Mixgosu
01-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

Wolf
01-02-2011, 02:08 PM
I don't know.. he could be where Matt Ryan is right now

Ryan
01-02-2011, 02:08 PM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

:kubepalm:

FirstTexansFan
01-02-2011, 02:11 PM
I don't know.. he could be where Matt Ryan is right now

Beat me to it :)

MSR

J_R
01-02-2011, 02:11 PM
Where would Kubiak be without Matt Schaub?

DocBar
01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
Matt Schaub would be a good QB regardless of HC. Kubiak has always had the luxery of having good QB's. Do you really think he coached up Elway? Jake the Fake had a couple of good seasons under Kubiak, but he'd had some of those at Arizona.

BetaV1
01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
:kubepalm:

Seconded. :kubepalm:

ziggy29
01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
I don't know.. he could be where Matt Ryan is right now
Funny thing is, the Falcons let Schaub go at a time when they still thought Mike Vick was their future. And when the Vick incident hit, the general thought was, "I'll bet the Falcons wished they still had Schaub now"...

But looking back now, if the Falcons still had Schaub and didn't trade him away, they probably don't draft Matt Ryan. So I suspect they're quite glad they did it...

texan279
01-02-2011, 02:19 PM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

W......T.......F................:mariopalm:

ThaShark316
01-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Wouldn't have the shackles on him like Kubiak has on him.

TheMatrix31
01-02-2011, 02:24 PM
Kubiak went out and got Schaub. For that, he should get credit. Schaub is Top 10 QB.

Rey
01-02-2011, 02:25 PM
Schaub is a good QB.

Kubiak knows offense.

They are a good marriage...not great...

Rey
01-02-2011, 02:25 PM
Kubiak went out and got Schaub. For that, he should get credit. Schaub is Top 10 QB.



No...He's not....

Well, not IMO....

Mixgosu
01-02-2011, 02:29 PM
No...He's not....

Well, not IMO....

Tim Tebow schooled him last week for crying out loud.

Thorn
01-02-2011, 02:29 PM
Schaub's QB rating puts him at 14th in the league right now. Interestingly enough, Matt Ryan is 15th.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player?stat=passing&sort=quarterbackRating&year=2010&seasontype=2

Wolf
01-02-2011, 02:30 PM
Tim Tebow schooled him last week for crying out loud.

i'd like to see our offense against our defense in a game day situation

I bet AJ would break all kinds of NFL records going up against our secondary

TheMatrix31
01-02-2011, 02:30 PM
No...He's not....

Well, not IMO....

If not Top 10, then Top 12.

In no order;

Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Vick (assuming we're talking right-now, right now), Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, Schaub.

Unless I'm forgetting a dude or two.

BetaV1
01-02-2011, 02:31 PM
The guy doesn't have the sixth highest passing yards in a single season for no reason...

BetaV1
01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
If not Top 10, then Top 12.

In no order;

Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Vick (assuming we're talking right-now, right now), Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, Schaub.

Unless I'm forgetting a dude or two.

That seems about right, although I wouldn't put Flacco up there at this point.

My opinionated rankings:

1. Brady
2. Brees
3. (Peyton) Manning
4. Rothlisberger
5. Rivers
6. Rodgers
7. Vick
8. Ryan
9. Schaub
10. Gets a bit fuzzy here, but I'd have to go with Jay Cutler... :bender:

Mixgosu
01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
i'd like to see our offense against our defense in a game day situation

I bet AJ would break all kinds of NFL records going up against our secondary

Tebow's last drive = rushing TD

Schaub's last drive = pick:kubepalm:

Rey
01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
If not Top 10, then Top 12.

In no order;

Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Vick (assuming we're talking right-now, right now), Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, Schaub.

Unless I'm forgetting a dude or two.


I'd take Bradford, Cutler and Romo over Schaub in this system...

Note, I said in this system...

I'd actually take Bradford over him str8 up in any system...

TheMatrix31
01-02-2011, 02:40 PM
Tebow's last drive = rushing TD

Schaub's last drive = pick:kubepalm:


And to the ignore list you go.

DocBar
01-02-2011, 02:40 PM
Cutler has to get over his fantasy of being Brett Favre before he cracks my top 10. Schaub is a very good QB.

Mixgosu
01-02-2011, 02:44 PM
no need to get upset:wadepalm:


bronco's have an equally atrocious D and Schaub only led us to 6 meesly points in the 2H. Tebow outplayed him in that game.

As an overall QB, Schaub is much better no doubt. :kubepalm:

Surreal McCoy
01-02-2011, 02:51 PM
bronco's have an equally atrocious D and Schaub only led us to 6 meesly points in the 2H. Tebow outplayed him in that game.


You're right. If Schaub wasn't so crap he'd be scoring 17 points in each half, huh?

Runner
01-02-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm happy with Schaub. My concern after his first year here was durability, but he's laid that to rest.

Texecutioner
01-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Probably on a playoff team.

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:21 PM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

This may be the dumbest thing Ive heard. Yes, he is not a superbowl QB, only because we havent been good enough to make it to one. He has put up the 6th most passing yards in a season in the history of the NFL, not to mention led the league last year.

He is in the top 5 of the NFL this year in passing yards if I remember correctly.

Getting rid of Schaub and giving the starting job to Leinart may be the most unacceptable thing Ive heard.........other than the whole Kubiak staying thing.

That soft throwing lefty is a backup for a reason, its not like teams were lining up to give him the starting job. He had one of the best WR tandems in the NFL with Boldin/Fitz and he still couldnt get it done.

This message board would self-destruct if they took your advice on this.

:kubepalm:

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:23 PM
Where would Kubiak be without Matt Schaub?

Good point on this.

PapaL
01-02-2011, 04:24 PM
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has at least one.

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Funny thing is, the Falcons let Schaub go at a time when they still thought Mike Vick was their future. And when the Vick incident hit, the general thought was, "I'll bet the Falcons wished they still had Schaub now"...

But looking back now, if the Falcons still had Schaub and didn't trade him away, they probably don't draft Matt Ryan. So I suspect they're quite glad they did it...

I think Schaub could do what Ryan is doing in ATL right now. You surround Schaub with a great RB, league leading WR, helluva TE, a decent defense, and a good head coach and he can get it done.

Looks like we have 3 out of 5.

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:39 PM
No...He's not.... (a top 10 QB)
Well, not IMO....

All of these stats are prior to the JAX game:

3rd in completions
10th in completion %
4th in total pass yds
9th in yards/attempt
8th (tied) in TD passes
5th in yards/game

The only meaningful category that he wasnt in the top 10 was QB rating. He is 14th with a 90.4. #10 was Drew Brees at 92.2. Out of those top 13 above him, one was Romo who only played a half season.

If the above doesnt show that hes a top 10 QB, not sure what you're looking for. You can argue all day about the intangibles but those are merely opinions. Stats are what counts in this arguement.

TheMatrix31
01-02-2011, 04:40 PM
John McClain McClain_on_NFL

Matt Schaub just became the 5th QB to throw for more than 9,000 yards over 2 seasons. 6 minutes ago via web



is that just for these past two seasons, or is that all-time?

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:42 PM
John McClain McClain_on_NFL

Matt Schaub just became the 5th QB to throw for more than 9,000 yards over 2 seasons. 6 minutes ago via web



is that just for these past two seasons, or is that all-time?

Im willing to bet all time, but according to Rey, thats not top 10 material.

Thorn
01-02-2011, 04:44 PM
Out of all the things to ***** about, I wouldn't think Schaub to be one of them.

2slik4u
01-02-2011, 04:45 PM
Out of all the things to ***** about, I wouldn't think Schaub to be one of them.

This.

Surreal McCoy
01-02-2011, 04:49 PM
John McClain McClain_on_NFL

Matt Schaub just became the 5th QB to throw for more than 9,000 yards over 2 seasons. 6 minutes ago via web



is that just for these past two seasons, or is that all-time?


hehe somebody's been caught with their hands in the clever jar! :fingergun:

TheMatrix31
01-02-2011, 04:52 PM
hehe somebody's been caught with their hands in the clever jar! :fingergun:

Uh....it says 9,000 yards for 2 seasons. Not "9,000 yards for the last two seasons", so I'd say that's a legit question.

Surreal McCoy
01-02-2011, 04:53 PM
Uh....it says 9,000 yards for 2 seasons. Not "9,000 yards for the last two seasons"

The "just became" part is a hint. Of course, there's every chance Jabba McLain has it wrong.

GP
01-02-2011, 05:08 PM
He would be QB'ing the Falcons and better off.

That's an easy one.

Next?

devo-x
01-11-2011, 07:46 PM
Schaub's QB rating up to 9 per http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player?stat=passing&sort=quarterbackRating&year=2010&seasontype=2

Here's another interesting http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5972554ranking starting NFL QBs


12. Matt Schaub, Houston Texans

Analysis: Schaub established himself as a 4,000-yard thrower the past two years. Too bad he didn't get a chance to play his own defense each week. He would have been a 5,000-yard passer against the porous Texans.
Arrow is pointing: Up


Thoughts?

Texan_Bill
01-11-2011, 07:54 PM
Schaub's QB rating up to 9 per http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player?stat=passing&sort=quarterbackRating&year=2010&seasontype=2

Here's another interesting http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5972554ranking starting NFL QBs



Thoughts?

:facepalm: Jimmy Clausen!

PHAROAH
01-11-2011, 09:44 PM
Matt shaub would be a backup if it were not for Gary Kubiaks system please give me a break. Shaub hasn't shown me anything in clutch situations that proves he is a top 10 QB in the past 4 seasons. Sure you stat freaks will hang your hat on the stats but the top Qb's uplift there teams and win close games all shaub does is throw pics during key situations all the time that cost us games. Look Rex Grossman was lighting it up in the same offense in washington that he learned while he was in houston and he is straight up garbage at QB. So until Shaub start to win the games that he should win in close situations instead of throwing pics he is not in my top 10 QB's maybe Top 15 but he isn't a top QB yet. Josh freeman in Tampa has done more with less weapons now go figure that one and they were 10-6 with no dominant player on defense while we have Mario, Demeco, B. Cushing etc. now name me one guy off of Tampa's D you can't so that means the QB put the team on his back.

texas838
01-11-2011, 10:25 PM
interesting point. I don't think Schaub is a legit QB. He's def. in the top 10 but I don't even see him being that franchise QB. Would love to trade Schaub for 1st rounder.

Texanmike02
01-12-2011, 12:36 AM
Matt shaub would be a backup if it were not for Gary Kubiaks system please give me a break. Shaub hasn't shown me anything in clutch situations that proves he is a top 10 QB in the past 4 seasons. Sure you stat freaks will hang your hat on the stats but the top Qb's uplift there teams and win close games all shaub does is throw pics during key situations all the time that cost us games. Look Rex Grossman was lighting it up in the same offense in washington that he learned while he was in houston and he is straight up garbage at QB. So until Shaub start to win the games that he should win in close situations instead of throwing pics he is not in my top 10 QB's maybe Top 15 but he isn't a top QB yet. Josh freeman in Tampa has done more with less weapons now go figure that one and they were 10-6 with no dominant player on defense while we have Mario, Demeco, B. Cushing etc. now name me one guy off of Tampa's D you can't so that means the QB put the team on his back.

You know schaub has thrown several game winning/tying TDs only to watch his defense give up a go ahead/game winning TD/FG in an impossible manner. He's also lead the team down to the 1 yard line with and been K(ch)ris Browned several times and I think you're exactly right. This guy is not the guy to lead this team. We need a guy with the kind of arm that can run a 14 second offense. You know so he can throw the game winning TD after the defense gives up the TD after the fist game winning TD.

Is clark's alter ego in the draft?

To say all he does is throw pics in key situations? That's kind of a stretch. He certainly did ruin the Balt game. Of course it would have been better to take a sack or an intentional grounding call in that situation. At least that way we'd have only lost by 2.


Mike

buddyboy
01-12-2011, 12:53 AM
interesting point. I don't think Schaub is a legit QB. He's def. in the top 10 but I don't even see him being that franchise QB. Would love to trade Schaub for 1st rounder.

...there is so much ignorance on this board.

You admit that you think Schaub is top 10, yet you think that doesn't make him a franchise QB. Not ONLY that, you would "love" to trade him for a first round pick?! Who would be our QB then? The first round pick?! You're aware that there are NO GUARANTEES in the draft, right? In fact, with the Texans drafting, the closest thing to a guarantee that you can get is that the Texans will draft the next David Carr (who, coincidentally, was a first round draft pick).

On another note, for all the people complaining that Schaub throws picks in when the game is on the line: he wouldn't be throwing them if he didn't have to lead the Texans on a game-winning drive EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. Maybe if the defense showed up once or twice, Schaub would be able to hand it off to our monster RB in the fourth quarter after running up the score to a comfortable lead (with the defense we had this year, no lead is comfortable).

Grams
01-12-2011, 06:00 AM
interesting point. I don't think Schaub is a legit QB. He's def. in the top 10 but I don't even see him being that franchise QB. Would love to trade Schaub for 1st rounder.

How can you say Schaub is not a legit QB, but that he is definitly in the top 10???

b0ng
01-12-2011, 06:48 AM
Matt shaub would be a backup if it were not for Gary Kubiaks system please give me a break.

It's a good thing you made a really dumb statement at the beginning of your post rather than the end. I'm sure the rest of your rant is just as quality as this post (btw there were lots of teams that wanted Schaub as their QB in 2007, so your little theory about him being a backup is fail).

Seņor Stan
01-12-2011, 07:07 AM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

Matt Leinart?!?! The same Matt Leinart that couldn't beat out Derek Anderson, John Skelton, OR Max Hall? THAT Matt Leinart?

sheesh

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g67/senorstan/tx2xpalm.jpg

Thorn
01-12-2011, 07:26 AM
Matt Leinart?!?! The same Matt Leinart that couldn't beat out Derek Anderson, John Skelton, OR Max Hall? THAT Matt Leinart?

sheesh

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g67/senorstan/tx2xpalm.jpg

He may be worthless as a QB, but he's got some hot chicks and a hot tub to put them in. :lol:

silvrhand
01-12-2011, 08:34 AM
As many have stated we have worst problems on this team. But that doesn't bring out the fact that Matt does have some shortcomings..

- weak arm
- can't seem to throw the deep ball worth a crap..
- route progression seems slow, he locks on
- late throws, doesn't seem to trust his receivers a lot.

Now that being said the biggest thing he's gotten rid of is his toughness issue, he isn't glass joe now at least.

Hopefully this offseason he can work on trust with his receivers and make the throws before the cuts and get on the same page. I still for the life of me can't figure out why we don't throw the deep out when people line up off of Andre by 10-12 yards..

BigBull17
01-12-2011, 08:42 AM
Schaub is not a superbowl quarterback. Plain and simple. Trade him for another first round draft pick and move Leinart to starting QB.

...You think Schaub isn't elite, yet want to start Leinart...? My brain hurts now.
:kubepalm::wadepalm::toropalm::mariopalm:

Ole Miss Texan
01-12-2011, 09:04 AM
This whole notion that Matt can't drive us down the field at the end of the game is ridiculous. Yes he has his shortcomings, yes he throws the occasional ill advised pick... I just think people are so frustrated right now they'll blame any player on our team. How many times did Schaub lead us down the field at the end of the game to Tie or put us in the lead? I think it was like 4 times. What sucks is when the defense allows Sanchez to go down and win after that in 50 seconds. Or when the defense allows a 50 yard TD reception as time expires.

This Schaub hate is ridiculous. Probably the same people that were pushing the "Start Sage" threads. LMAO

Peyton Manning -
- lead the Colts down the field to kick the go ahead FG with 1:32 left in the 1st round of the playoffs. Jets went down the field and kicked a FG to win the game. Peyton Manning sucks.
- lead the Colts down the field to throw a game tieing TD against the Jags with 52 seconds left. Garrard marched down the field and the Jags kicked the winning FG with 5 seconds remaining. Peyton Manning sucks.
- had the ball down by 2 points with 40 seconds remaining against the Eagles. Just had to go 39 yards to get into FG range to win. Throws an INT with 18 seconds left. Peyton Manning Sucks.
- had the ball down by 3 points with 2:25 left in the game against the Pats. Marched the Colts down the field putting them in FG range (24 yard line) only to throw an INT with 37 seconds remaining. Peyton Manning sucks.
- Tied the game against Dallas to go into OT. 1st drive in OT had to punt. 2nd drive in OT threw an INT in Colt territory leaving Dallas instantly in FG range. Peyton Manning sucks.

Maybe the Colts should look for a better QB too because Manning obviously isn't getting it done. Maybe we can just trade them Schaub and we'll get Peyton? No, I wouldn't want either of those chumps. Remember Peyton also threw that INT in the Super Bowl that won it for the Saints? Yea he's just no good I guess.

:kubepalm:

HoustonFrog
01-12-2011, 11:45 AM
Is this thread for extremists only?

I see he is backup trash and see he is elite and just isn't tops because of the D.

Reality is he is a Top 12-15 QB who can win some games and show you flashes and in the same breath lose games with a stupid Ass play. Interception count the same no matter when you throw them. You could do better or worse.

Texanator
01-12-2011, 11:48 AM
He'd be in the playoffs. It's only Kubiaks constant air ball game that has caused Shaub to have the bad Int's late in the games when running plays should have been called in the first place!

JCTexan
01-12-2011, 11:54 AM
These type of threads drive me crazy. If Kubiak & the Houston Texans didn't trade for Matt Schaub he would be the starting QB for the Atlanta Falcons. They wouldn't have had the huge need for a QB to draft Matt Ryan.

Matt Schaub has thrown for 9,140 yards the past two years. The only QB to throw for more yards the past two years is Peyton Manning (9,200). He has more than Drew Brees (9,002), Phillip Rivers (8,964), Aaron Rodgers (8,356), etc.. Schaub has thrown for 53 TD's the past two years, throwing 27 picks during that span. That's fewer INT's thrown the past two years than Peyton Manning (33) & Drew Brees (33).

I seriously believe there are people on this board who miss the David Carr years... :wadepalm:

Texan4Ever
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM
I think the more important questions is, "Where would Matt Schaub be without Andre Johnson?"

Signed,

AJ "The Beast"

infantrycak
01-12-2011, 11:58 AM
He'd be in the playoffs. It's only Kubiaks constant air ball game that has caused Shaub to have the bad Int's late in the games when running plays should have been called in the first place!

Somebody remind me if I miss one.

INT off AJ's knee - fluke not on Schaub or AJ
INT against Baltimore - call it on Schaub although I wonder if JJ wasn't supposed to break that route - but call it on Schaub.
INT against Denver - tipped ball, not on Schaub.

Where are all the late game INT's last year that were actually on Schaub?

BigBull17
01-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Is this thread for extremists only?

I see he is backup trash and see he is elite and just isn't tops because of the D.

Reality is he is a Top 12-15 QB who can win some games and show you flashes and in the same breath lose games with a stupid Ass play. Interception count the same no matter when you throw them. You could do better or worse.

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Rapistburger, Dog Killer, Rodgers, Ryan. Those are better than Matt. Who else? I know he has flaws, but just saying things could be a whole lot worse QB wise. 12-15 is too high. Cutler, Flacco, and Schaub are close, but he is still top ten.

Thorn
01-12-2011, 12:57 PM
............ Rapistburger, Dog Killer........

:lol:

BigBull17
01-12-2011, 02:02 PM
:lol:

I'm an equal opportunity hater. What can I say.

moonsh0t
01-12-2011, 02:27 PM
Why do you think leinart came here knowing he would have no chance to start.
Without kubiak schaub would be an average qb. Thoughts.

I think the real question is where would Kubiak be without used hair gel?

PHAROAH
01-12-2011, 02:28 PM
It's a good thing you made a really dumb statement at the beginning of your post rather than the end. I'm sure the rest of your rant is just as quality as this post (btw there were lots of teams that wanted Schaub as their QB in 2007, so your little theory about him being a backup is fail).Look man I want a winner and sure his stats look great in a system built for QB's to be successful but I have never seen shaub put this team on his back and win consistantly with multiple players on this offense who made it to pro-bowl since you guys insist on saying that he is a top 10 QB where is your proof since my rant is bad. When has Mr. Shaub taken us to the playoffs in 4 season 0. Look man i'm tired of losing and it kills me when you guys bring up his stats to prove that he is top 10 QB that is pure garbage then you guys who love shaub get mad when we call him out like he is untouchable.

buddyboy
01-12-2011, 02:33 PM
Look man I want a winner and sure his stats look great in a system built for QB's to be successful but I have never seen shaub put this team on his back and win consistantly with multiple players on this offense who made it to pro-bowl since you guys insist on saying that he is a top 10 QB where is your proof since my rant is bad. When has Mr. Shaub taken us to the playoffs in 4 season 0. Look man i'm tired of losing and it kills me when you guys bring up his stats to prove that he is top 10 QB that is pure garbage then you guys who love shaub get mad when we call him out like he is untouchable.

It's laughable that you blame Schaub for not carrying the team on his back to go to the playoffs when last year, our defense was HISTORICALLY BAD. Why not blame Arian Foster for not putting it on his back? We should get rid of our entire roster, right? Since none of them have succeeded in getting our team to the playoffs. They're not "winners".

Give me a break. On a team with so many problems, QB isn't even in the top half of positions we need to address.

JB
01-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Look man I want a winner and sure his stats look great in a system built for QB's to be successful but I have never seen shaub put this team on his back and win consistantly with multiple players on this offense who made it to pro-bowl since you guys insist on saying that he is a top 10 QB where is your proof since my rant is bad. When has Mr. Shaub taken us to the playoffs in 4 season 0. Look man i'm tired of losing and it kills me when you guys bring up his stats to prove that he is top 10 QB that is pure garbage then you guys who love shaub get mad when we call him out like he is untouchable.

If the defense wasn't historically bad this year, we would have been in the playoffs.

Ole Miss Texan
01-12-2011, 02:43 PM
If the defense wasn't historically bad this year, we would have been in the playoffs.

And minus a couple missed FGs here and there last year and it'd be two years in a row.

Ndevine7
01-12-2011, 02:47 PM
For those who dont think matt schaub isnt a top 10 quarterback do not even deserve to be posting on this bored. Sheer stupidity

PHAROAH
01-12-2011, 02:47 PM
It's laughable that you blame Schaub for not carrying the team on his back to go to the playoffs when last year, our defense was HISTORICALLY BAD. Why not blame Arian Foster for not putting it on his back? We should get rid of our entire roster, right? Since none of them have succeeded in getting our team to the playoffs. They're not "winners".

Give me a break. On a team with so many problems, QB isn't even in the top half of positions we need to address.I never said get rid of shaub I responded to someone saying that he was a top tiered QB my goodness come on man read all my comment I never said get rid of him I was debating if he was top 10 qb lord have mercy!!!!

buddyboy
01-12-2011, 02:54 PM
I never said get rid of shaub I responded to someone saying that he was a top tiered QB my goodness come on man read all my comment I never said get rid of him I was debating if he was top 10 qb lord have mercy!!!!

Oh, I see, so you were just b!tching about the QB position, rather than pretty much anyone else who deserves more blame. Right?

Whether he's top 10 or not (I don't think he is, I think he's NEAR top 10), it doesn't really matter. You're blaming Matt for not "putting the team on his back" and winning. It's hard to do when your defense is horrible.

JB
01-12-2011, 02:58 PM
For those who dont think matt schaub isnt a top 10 quarterback do not even deserve to be posting on this bored. Sheer stupidity

No, differences in opinion does not equate to stupidity.

infantrycak
01-12-2011, 03:02 PM
I never said get rid of shaub I responded to someone saying that he was a top tiered QB my goodness come on man read all my comment I never said get rid of him I was debating if he was top 10 qb lord have mercy!!!!

Please name the QB's better than him in your opinion. Your comments have been kind of all over the place - would be a backup except for Kubiak, not elite, etc.

Ole Miss Texan
01-12-2011, 03:05 PM
Tom Brady - BETTER
Mark Sanchez - Debatable, I say NO
Chad Henne - NO
Ryan Fitzpatrick - NO
Ben Rothlesberger - BETTER
Joe Flacco - Debatable, let's say BETTER
Colt McCoy - NO
Carson Palmer - NO
Peyton Manning - BETTER
David Garrard - NO
Kerry Collins/Vince Young - NO
Matt Cassel - Debatable, I say NO
Phillip Rivers - BETTER
Jason Campbell - NO
Tim Tebow - NO
Michael Vick - Debatable/Can he keep this up?, let's say BETTER
Eli Manning - Debatable, Super Bowl gets edge - BETTER
Tony Romo/Jon Kitna - Romo is a decent comparision IMO but - NO
Donovan McNabb - Maybe in his prime but not now -NO
Jay Cutler - Debatable, I say NO
Aaron Rodgers - BETTER
Matthew Stafford - rookie, NO
Brett Favre/Joe Webb - NO
Matt Ryan - BETTER
Drew Brees - BETTER
Josh Freeman - some may debate I say NO
Jimmy Clausen - NO
Matt Hasselbeck/Charlie Whitehurst - NO
Sam Bradford - rookie, NO
Troy Smith/Alex Smith - NO
Derek Anderson/John Skelton - NO

I'm a big Schaub fan, love him on this team, love what he's doing here and don't for a second think we should get rid of him. With that said I don't think he's a Top QB in the league. I think right now he's pushing Top 10 though. Rank him #9-16, and I think that would be warranted. All I know is that I think our QB situation is better than at least 21 teams out there.

Battle Red Flash
01-12-2011, 03:06 PM
i think the more important questions is, "where would matt schaub be without andre johnson?"

signed,

aj "the beast"

true

PHAROAH
01-12-2011, 03:07 PM
Oh, I see, so you were just b!tching about the QB position, rather than pretty much anyone else who deserves more blame. Right?

Whether he's top 10 or not (I don't think he is, I think he's NEAR top 10), it doesn't really matter. You're blaming Matt for not "putting the team on his back" and winning. It's hard to do when your defense is horrible.Dude look at damn topic of thread ***** don't blame me for the topic and me talking about it blame the person who started the thread man get a damn life people are tired of losing that's the bottom line and yes the defense was horrible but I clearly saw matt shaub throw picks during crucial points that costs us games please stop being a homer for a second realize the entire team needs a jolt.

gary
01-12-2011, 03:07 PM
If Joe Flaco is good enough for the Ravens than Matt Shaub is good enough for the Texans.

gary
01-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Are you going to tell me Sanchez is better than Shaub? I don't think so.

IlliniJen
01-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Tim Tebow schooled him last week for crying out loud.

I didn't know Matt Schaub played on DEF.

Double Barrel
01-12-2011, 03:17 PM
No, differences in opinion does not equate to stupidity.

Well, sometimes opinions reveal stupid. :howdy:

infantrycak
01-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Tom Brady - BETTER
Mark Sanchez - Debatable, I say NO
Chad Henne - NO
Ryan Fitzpatrick - NO
Ben Rothlesberger - BETTER
Joe Flacco - Debatable, let's say BETTER
Colt McCoy - NO
Carson Palmer - NO
Peyton Manning - BETTER
David Garrard - NO
Kerry Collins/Vince Young - NO
Matt Cassel - Debatable, I say NO
Phillip Rivers - BETTER
Jason Campbell - NO
Tim Tebow - NO
Michael Vick - Debatable/Can he keep this up?, let's say BETTER
Eli Manning - Debatable, Super Bowl gets edge - BETTER
Tony Romo/Jon Kitna - Romo is a decent comparision IMO but - NO
Donovan McNabb - Maybe in his prime but not now -NO
Jay Cutler - Debatable, I say NO
Aaron Rodgers - BETTER
Matthew Stafford - rookie, NO
Brett Favre/Joe Webb - NO
Matt Ryan - BETTER
Drew Brees - BETTER
Josh Freeman - some may debate I say NO
Jimmy Clausen - NO
Matt Hasselbeck/Charlie Whitehurst - NO
Sam Bradford - rookie, NO
Troy Smith/Alex Smith - NO
Derek Anderson/John Skelton - NO

I'm a big Schaub fan, love him on this team, love what he's doing here and don't for a second think we should get rid of him. With that said I don't think he's a Top QB in the league. I think right now he's pushing Top 10 though. Rank him #9-16, and I think that would be warranted. All I know is that I think our QB situation is better than at least 21 teams out there.

Very well done. I personally would rather have Schaub than all the debatables you listed but that presents it very fairly. I might list Matt Ryan as a debatable as well. He throws a lot of short stuff (38 passes over 20 yards vs. 68) but they are winning.

gary
01-12-2011, 03:28 PM
Falcco and Sanchez have yet to be great but they are both serviceable but they also have a running game and a great D to help carry the load.

ReliantTexan
01-12-2011, 03:55 PM
Why do people always act like stats mean nothing when talking QBs? They judge a QB solely by the record of his TEAM and act like passing yards and TDs have no impact. But don't just look at individual stats.

This Schaub led Texans offense was putting up more points per game than Drew Brees' saints, Big ben's steelers, Aaron rodgers packers and Joe flacco's ravens. What's funny is that all those teams are in the playoffs. Something to do with the defense maybe?

PHAROAH
01-12-2011, 04:23 PM
You guys make good points but we are still a 6-10 team so who cares about stats it's about winning games enough said.

Texanator
01-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Why do people always act like stats mean nothing when talking QBs? They judge a QB solely by the record of his TEAM and act like passing yards and TDs have no impact. But don't just look at individual stats.

This Schaub led Texans offense was putting up more points per game than Drew Brees' saints, Big ben's steelers, Aaron rodgers packers and Joe flacco's ravens. What's funny is that all those teams are in the playoffs. Something to do with the defense maybe?

So very well put! Bravo! And Rep added!

dream_team
01-12-2011, 04:51 PM
Look man I want a winner and sure his stats look great in a system built for QB's to be successful but I have never seen shaub put this team on his back and win consistantly with multiple players on this offense who made it to pro-bowl since you guys insist on saying that he is a top 10 QB where is your proof since my rant is bad. When has Mr. Shaub taken us to the playoffs in 4 season 0. Look man i'm tired of losing and it kills me when you guys bring up his stats to prove that he is top 10 QB that is pure garbage then you guys who love shaub get mad when we call him out like he is untouchable.

He's a good QB, but he's not great. He's not in the same league as Brady & Manning, where he can overcome a bad defense and still win games.

If that's what you're looking for, then good luck, that's once every 5 years type of player.

What we do have in Schaub is a very good & serviceable QB, but just like 90% of the other QB's in the league, needs his teammates to help him win games.

We all want a Peyton type player on our team, but some things just aren't feasible. We are in "win now" mode, therefore we have to create a team that will win with Schaub. That means a better defense.

Schaub may not single handedly win games for us, but at the same time he doesn't lose games for us. BTW, what about that Redskins game at the beginning of this season. You don't think he took his game to another level in the 4th? The same with the chiefs game?

Dishman
01-12-2011, 05:56 PM
If the defense wasn't historically bad this year, we would have been in the playoffs.


The defense wasn't historically bad last year and didn't we have a "softer" schedule? It seems like it's always something with this team.

JB
01-12-2011, 05:59 PM
The defense wasn't historically bad last year and didn't we have a "softer" schedule? It seems like it's always something with this team.

It wasn't Shaub that missed 3 game winning or tying FG's. It wasn't Schaub that fumbled on the goal line or threw halfback pass for an interception at the goal line. Schaub has played well enough the last two years to get this team in the playoffs.

JCTexan
01-12-2011, 06:01 PM
You guys make good points but we are still a 6-10 team so who cares about stats it's about winning games enough said.

I thought we were talking about Matt Schaub? How can you evaluate his play without mentioning his stats? If you want to talk about the team being 6-10 and winning games, you should be talking about improving the defense of this team. The offense was constantly scoring 20 points a game, averaging 24.4 Points per game this year (9th in the NFL). There were multiple games where they were either tied or had the lead in the final minutes of the game and ended up losing. If you want to improve from the 6-10 record the defense will need to improve from giving up 26.7 Points per game (4th worst in the league). You want to compare that to playoff teams? The Steelers gave up 14.5 PPG, Green Bay gave up 15 PPG, Baltimore 16.9, etc.. Seven of the remaining eight teams in the playoffs are in the top eight in the league in not giving up points. Maybe Schaub isn't the problem Houston was 6-10?

Dishman
01-12-2011, 06:14 PM
It wasn't Shaub that missed 3 game winning or tying FG's. It wasn't Schaub that fumbled on the goal line or threw halfback pass for an interception at the goal line. Schaub has played well enough the last two years to get this team in the playoffs.


To be clear, I wasn't pointing directly at Schaub. He has his warts (arm, mobility), but he's pretty heady and succeeds by knowing his limitations and playing within himself. Plenty of lesser QBs have played in the SB, so I'm good with Schaub leading this team up and down the field.

My previous point stands; the 2009 defense was respectable. Like I said, it's always something (execution, focus, preparation) with this team. It speaks to something more than who plays the QB. Blaming Schaub is lazy, but so is saying "if only our defense was better".

Grams
01-12-2011, 06:19 PM
Dude look at damn topic of thread ***** don't blame me for the topic and me talking about it blame the person who started the thread man get a damn life people are tired of losing that's the bottom line and yes the defense was horrible but I clearly saw matt shaub throw picks during crucial points that costs us games please stop being a homer for a second realize the entire team needs a jolt.


As Ole Miss Texan posted:
Peyton Manning -
- lead the Colts down the field to kick the go ahead FG with 1:32 left in the 1st round of the playoffs. Jets went down the field and kicked a FG to win the game. Peyton Manning sucks.
- lead the Colts down the field to throw a game tieing TD against the Jags with 52 seconds left. Garrard marched down the field and the Jags kicked the winning FG with 5 seconds remaining. Peyton Manning sucks.
- had the ball down by 2 points with 40 seconds remaining against the Eagles. Just had to go 39 yards to get into FG range to win. Throws an INT with 18 seconds left. Peyton Manning Sucks.
- had the ball down by 3 points with 2:25 left in the game against the Pats. Marched the Colts down the field putting them in FG range (24 yard line) only to throw an INT with 37 seconds remaining. Peyton Manning sucks.
- Tied the game against Dallas to go into OT. 1st drive in OT had to punt. 2nd drive in OT threw an INT in Colt territory leaving Dallas instantly in FG range. Peyton Manning sucks.

Guess the Colts need to get rid of Manning also??

JB
01-12-2011, 06:19 PM
To be clear, I wasn't pointing directly at Schaub. He has his warts (arm, mobility), but he's pretty heady and succeeds by knowing his limitations and playing within himself. Plenty of lesser QBs have played in the SB, so I'm good with Schaub leading this team up and down the field.

My previous point stands; the 2009 defense was respectable. Like I said, it's always something (execution, focus, preparation) with this team. It speaks to something more than who plays the QB. Blaming Schaub is lazy, but so is saying "if only our defense was better".

But this is a Schaub thread...

Speedy
01-12-2011, 06:23 PM
How does a thread like this even get to 92 posts?

Amazing!

Dishman
01-12-2011, 06:34 PM
But this is a Schaub thread...

Yes, that's why I responded clarifying on my original response regarding your thoughts on the D.

BigBull17
01-12-2011, 06:48 PM
He's a good QB, but he's not great. He's not in the same league as Brady & Manning, where he can overcome a bad defense and still win games.

If that's what you're looking for, then good luck, that's once every 5 years type of player.

What we do have in Schaub is a very good & serviceable QB, but just like 90% of the other QB's in the league, needs his teammates to help him win games.

We all want a Peyton type player on our team, but some things just aren't feasible. We are in "win now" mode, therefore we have to create a team that will win with Schaub. That means a better defense.

Schaub may not single handedly win games for us, but at the same time he doesn't lose games for us. BTW, what about that Redskins game at the beginning of this season. You don't think he took his game to another level in the 4th? The same with the chiefs game?

I agree with some of your post, but the D we fielded last year isnt just bad. It was damn near the worst I'v ever seen. That's hard to over come.

I didn't know Matt Schaub played on DEF.

He couldn't be much worse.

Carr Bombed
01-12-2011, 07:14 PM
Matt Schaub is a very good QB even without Gary Kubiak and where would he be without Gary Kubiak...

Likely stepping in and locking down the long term starting job for Atlanta and they don't even take a whiff at Matt Ryan. The guy sure as hell is NOT a "backup", that's just crazy talk.


Matt Schaub is very good at what he does and while he does have shortcomings (the ability to throw a guy open deep), he isn't a scrub, can win us games down the stretch (because he has before), and if surrounded by the right players we can win a SB with him.

buddyboy
01-12-2011, 09:08 PM
Dude look at damn topic of thread ***** don't blame me for the topic and me talking about it blame the person who started the thread man get a damn life people are tired of losing that's the bottom line and yes the defense was horrible but I clearly saw matt shaub throw picks during crucial points that costs us games please stop being a homer for a second realize the entire team needs a jolt.

I'm confused about what you want. You say that you never said anything about wanting to get rid of Schaub, yet in one post you say "you want a winner" and Schaub isn't one. Here you say that the "team needs a jolt."

What the hell does that mean? Sure sounds like you want a change at the QB position.

You can't just single out one player and say "he didn't win the game for us", because it's a team effort. And in the second half, if Schaub doesn't score every single drive, it's pretty much time to pack up and go home since the defense couldn't stop anyone.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2011, 10:16 AM
Tom Brady - BETTER
Mark Sanchez - Debatable, I say NO
Chad Henne - NO
Ryan Fitzpatrick - NO
Ben Rothlesberger - BETTER
Joe Flacco - Debatable, let's say BETTER
Colt McCoy - NO
Carson Palmer - NO
Peyton Manning - BETTER
David Garrard - NO
Kerry Collins/Vince Young - NO
Matt Cassel - Debatable, I say NO
Phillip Rivers - BETTER
Jason Campbell - NO
Tim Tebow - NO
Michael Vick - Debatable/Can he keep this up?, let's say BETTER
Eli Manning - Debatable, Super Bowl gets edge - BETTER
Tony Romo/Jon Kitna - Romo is a decent comparision IMO but - NO
Donovan McNabb - Maybe in his prime but not now -NO
Jay Cutler - Debatable, I say NO
Aaron Rodgers - BETTER
Matthew Stafford - rookie, NO
Brett Favre/Joe Webb - NO
Matt Ryan - BETTER
Drew Brees - BETTER
Josh Freeman - some may debate I say NO
Jimmy Clausen - NO
Matt Hasselbeck/Charlie Whitehurst - NO
Sam Bradford - rookie, NO
Troy Smith/Alex Smith - NO
Derek Anderson/John Skelton - NO

I'm a big Schaub fan, love him on this team, love what he's doing here and don't for a second think we should get rid of him. With that said I don't think he's a Top QB in the league. I think right now he's pushing Top 10 though. Rank him #9-16, and I think that would be warranted. All I know is that I think our QB situation is better than at least 21 teams out there.

So like I said he is Top 12-15. There are 10 better than him on this list and I know it isn't popular but I put Romo above him due to the fact that Romo's stats are outstanding and he has been to the playoffs. They are very similar on how they make mistakes but can put up great numbers but I give Tony the edge on wins. I also think there is a real strong argument that some of the younger guys if taken with outlooks for the future can be considered better to potentially better....Freeman and Bradford. Hell Orton puts up incredible stats on teams that lose. That is basically what Schaub does. Same with Cutler...and he is getting wins now too.

With all that said, I'm a Schaub fan. Defended him daily here when the dumb Rosenfels lovers wanted him and think he is a "good" QB. But he isn't near elite and he isn't at fault for every loss.....the two extremes. He is basically a Top 12-15 guy...edge of Top 10 and he can kill you or help you win. He is at his best when the team is running the ball well and he gets to use play action. He is at his worst, IMHO, when he is forced to throw alot. Yeah his yards might look great but he throws in 2 horrible ints and aggressive fronts make him a little jittery.

infantrycak
01-13-2011, 10:36 AM
So like I said he is Top 12-15. There is 10 better than him on this list and I know it isn't popular but I put Romo above him due to the fact that Romo's stats are outstanding and he has been to the playoffs.

Schaub's stats have been slightly better so I guess they are outstanding as well. I'll never understand how playoffs is the tipping point on individual play but anyway I'd say they are basically equal.

and aggressive fronts make him a little jittery.

Not sure what you mean by aggressive fronts. If you mean blitzing, over the last two seasons his QB rating is over 100 when blitzed.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2011, 11:16 AM
Schaub's stats have been slightly better so I guess they are outstanding as well. I'll never understand how playoffs is the tipping point on individual play but anyway I'd say they are basically equal.



Not sure what you mean by aggressive fronts. If you mean blitzing, over the last two seasons his QB rating is over 100 when blitzed.

Cak, when the Texans have played teams in the 3-4 and have gotten after Schaub he has gotten happy feet and ducked many times. It isn't something that is just floating out there, it is very tangible watching the games.

The playoffs and wins is the tipping point because it is what the game is about..winning games and getting there. If it was only stats then we would throw out QB SB wins, etc. Romo was setting NFL record numbers up until this year. From Rick Gosselin this last July

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/cowboys/stories/070810dnspogosselincol.1c918c8.html

Romo went to the Pro Bowl as a first-year starter with the Cowboys in 2006. He set a franchise record for touchdown passes in 2008 with 36, then established the franchise mark for passing yards in 2009 with 4,483.

Romo finally has thrown the necessary 1,500 passes to qualify for the NFL career passing list and debuts in 2010 as the third most-efficient quarterback in history – ahead of Peyton Manning, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Drew Brees

TOP 10 PASSERS

The top 10 passers in NFL history entering the season. It's based on their efficiency rating (a formula that includes yards, touchdowns, interceptions and completion percentage). A quarterback needs to throw 1,500 career passes to qualify:
Rank, quarterback, Rating
1. Steve Young 96.8
2. Philip Rivers 95.8
3. Tony Romo 95.6
4. Peyton Manning 95.2
5. Kurt Warner 93.7
6. Tom Brady 93.3
7. Joe Montana 92.3
8. Drew Brees 91.9
9. Ben Roethlisberger 91.7
10. Chad Pennington 90.1

GP
01-13-2011, 11:58 AM
Schaub's biggest liability is his inability to tuck the ball and run with it. This ability, if he had it, would help us a lot.

His second biggest liability is his inability to trust the receiver and his own timing on the deep route. Safe to say that he underthrows the deep ball, and I think it's not because of a weak arm. He's putting too much touch on it, or he's releasing it too late, or a combination of both of those. Receivers, on deep routes, almost invariably have to stop and come back to the ball (or at least slow down, which allows the defender to catch up). For whatever reason, he struggles with this.

His third liability is that Gary Kubiak doesn't trust him more. I know, I know, here comes the "But he DOES get to audible, GP! He really does!" I am not saying he doesn't get the chances. I am saying that Kubiak states Schaub has complete control in 2-minute situations. IMO, we played some pretty good ball in those times when Schaub has to man the controls going down the field. At what point can Schaub be allowed to do more of that? He ought to.

Where would Schaub be without Kubiak? Hmmm....the better question might be: Where would Kubiak be without Schaub?

But there I go again...just being a nuisance on here. My bad.

infantrycak
01-13-2011, 12:08 PM
Cak, when the Texans have played teams in the 3-4 and have gotten after Schaub he has gotten happy feet and ducked many times. It isn't something that is just floating out there, it is very tangible watching the games.

What's very tangible to me is 3-4's have often given the OL problems and that anytime QB's get pressured consistently their performance goes down. I don't see happy feet and in fact have seen him throw the ball knowing he was about to take a big hit a bunch, but agree to disagree.

Ducking would be Manning's specialty.

JCTexan
01-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Tom Brady - BETTER
Mark Sanchez - Debatable, I say NO
Chad Henne - NO
Ryan Fitzpatrick - NO
Ben Rothlesberger - BETTER
Joe Flacco - Debatable, let's say BETTER
Colt McCoy - NO
Carson Palmer - NO
Peyton Manning - BETTER
David Garrard - NO
Kerry Collins/Vince Young - NO
Matt Cassel - Debatable, I say NO
Phillip Rivers - BETTER
Jason Campbell - NO
Tim Tebow - NO
Michael Vick - Debatable/Can he keep this up?, let's say BETTER
Eli Manning - Debatable, Super Bowl gets edge - BETTER
Tony Romo/Jon Kitna - Romo is a decent comparision IMO but - NO
Donovan McNabb - Maybe in his prime but not now -NO
Jay Cutler - Debatable, I say NO
Aaron Rodgers - BETTER
Matthew Stafford - rookie, NO
Brett Favre/Joe Webb - NO
Matt Ryan - BETTER
Drew Brees - BETTER
Josh Freeman - some may debate I say NO
Jimmy Clausen - NO
Matt Hasselbeck/Charlie Whitehurst - NO
Sam Bradford - rookie, NO
Troy Smith/Alex Smith - NO
Derek Anderson/John Skelton - NO

I'm a big Schaub fan, love him on this team, love what he's doing here and don't for a second think we should get rid of him. With that said I don't think he's a Top QB in the league. I think right now he's pushing Top 10 though. Rank him #9-16, and I think that would be warranted. All I know is that I think our QB situation is better than at least 21 teams out there.

I un-highlighted those I don't think are better than Schaub. I think Matt Schaub is a top-10 QB, but that could be because I don't have making the playoffs or winning the SB as the deciding factor of who is better. Those I believe are about the team not the individual. Pittsburgh made the playoffs but does that make Roethlisberger better? Considering Houston's defense gave up an average two more touchdowns per game I would say no. Schaub had to do two times more per game to win than Big Ben did. I don't think Flacco, Eli or Sanchez are better either.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2011, 12:25 PM
I un-highlighted those I don't think are better than Schaub. I think Matt Schaub is a top-10 QB, but that could be because I don't have making the playoffs or winning the SB as the deciding factor of who is better. Those I believe are about the team not the individual. Pittsburgh made the playoffs but does that make Roethlisberger better? Considering Houston's defense gave up an average two more touchdowns per game I would say no. Schaub had to do two times more per game to win than Big Ben did. I don't think Flacco or Sanchez is better either.

Yes Big Ben is better. Seriously, that is a no-brainer. The guy works in a system where stats aren't even there for the taking..and he takes a pounding behind a horrible line and still wins games for them. Houston's defense , if anything, helps Schaub because half his numbers are in trash time trying to comeback from 21 down. At the end of the year you may see 4000 yards and a bunch of TDs and say he belongs but if he isn't generating offense for 2 1/2 to 3 quarters than pouring it on when teams are sitting back. I know this isn't always the case...again, I'm a Schaub fan, but the argument goes both ways.

What's very tangible to me is 3-4's have often given the OL problems and that anytime QB's get pressured consistently their performance goes down. I don't see happy feet and in fact have seen him throw the ball knowing he was about to take a big hit a bunch, but agree to disagree.

Ducking would be Manning's specialty.

Then we are watching 2 different games because for a little over a year now he has had serious happy feet and ducked when the pressure got near him. Again, mostly against 3-4 teams that bring the heat.nnnadn this is actually a complimentary report on him through Week 9........

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/507851-an-exercise-in-futility-ranking-the-nfls-top-10-quarterbacks#page/3

I guess Schaub deserves a little credit of his own. He has happy feet in the pocket and appears to be struggling through a dead-arm stage in recent weeks, but there's no denying the fact that he's been one of the absolute best quarterbacks in the NFL over the course of the past three seasons.


But we can agree to disagree. Again, I like Schaub here. I just think his flaws take him out of the top 10 by a skosh.

BigBull17
01-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Falcco and Sanchez have yet to be great but they are both serviceable but they also have a running game and a great D to help carry the load.

Umm, Sanchez is awful. Absolutely horrid. If the Jets had a decent QB, they would have won by 14.

infantrycak
01-13-2011, 12:36 PM
YHouston's defense , if anything, helps Schaub because half his numbers are in trash time trying to comeback from 21 down. At the end of the year you may see 4000 yards and a bunch of TDs and say he belongs but if he isn't generating offense for 2 1/2 to 3 quarters than pouring it on when teams are sitting back. I know this isn't always the case...again, I'm a Schaub fan, but the argument goes both ways.

BS trash time argument. Teams know the Texans can hang points in a hurry. They go into Indy mode - get a lead then pin your ears back because you know they have to pass to catch up.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2011, 12:42 PM
BS trash time argument. Teams know the Texans can hang points in a hurry. They go into Indy mode - get a lead then pin your ears back because you know they have to pass to catch up.

How is it B.S.?They were down by double digits in 10 games this year. Many of the comebacks started in the 4th in the hurry up where they threw 95% of the time and put up TDs. You don't think DBs weren't told to back off and "don't let AJ beat you deep and keep everything underneath." That is what happened in the Ravens, Skins, etc. Their best game of the year was when Schaub did nothing and they ran Foster. The reality is that you can't just look at the numbers and say "Top 10" when he isn't producing for alot of the game and then has a furious amount of stats when many games are close to out of reach. Schaub was awesome in the Ravens game but there is a reason he had to do what he had to do...they did nothing for 3 quarters and they were behind.

Again, I'm not arguing against Schaub. I'm arguing that there are extremists here that either think the guy is elite or that he is the reason for all the losses. The reality is he is neither but he can look like either all in the same game....see Ravens game with incredible comeback and then horrible pick.

gary
01-13-2011, 12:43 PM
Umm, Sanchez is awful. Absolutely horrid. If the Jets had a decent QB, they would have won by 14.I admit he did lead the game winning drive and did beat the Texans on the last play. I think he just gets ahead of himself.

Double Barrel
01-13-2011, 12:44 PM
Yes Big Ben is better. Seriously, that is a no-brainer. The guy works in a system where stats aren't even there for the taking..and he takes a pounding behind a horrible line and still wins games for them. Houston's defense , if anything, helps Schaub because half his numbers are in trash time trying to comeback from 21 down. At the end of the year you may see 4000 yards and a bunch of TDs and say he belongs but if he isn't generating offense for 2 1/2 to 3 quarters than pouring it on when teams are sitting back. I know this isn't always the case...again, I'm a Schaub fan, but the argument goes both ways.


Re: bolded - I was watching an analysis of the Steelers offense, and one of the key aspects to the line looking so bad is that Ben holds on to the ball quite a bit longer than many QBs. He's waiting for a big play to develop, so many of his hits/sacks tend to be the result of his own decisions.

We saw something similar with HWWNBN, which one analysis stated that 1/3rd to 1/2 of his sacks were his own fault. (BTW, not comparing HWWNBN to Ben, but just that specific aspect of o-line analysis.)

infantrycak
01-13-2011, 12:54 PM
Re: bolded - I was watching an analysis of the Steelers offense, and one of the key aspects to the line looking so bad is that Ben holds on to the ball quite a bit longer than many QBs. He's waiting for a big play to develop, so many of his hits/sacks tend to be the result of his own decisions.

Yup, I have a couple Steelers fans friends and have gone to watch their games at a sports bar that tailgates for all the Steelers games and lots of folks in there were infuriated about Ben not getting rid of the ball. He is good at buying time with his feet but that can only go on for so long.

HoustonFrog
01-13-2011, 01:09 PM
Re: bolded - I was watching an analysis of the Steelers offense, and one of the key aspects to the line looking so bad is that Ben holds on to the ball quite a bit longer than many QBs. He's waiting for a big play to develop, so many of his hits/sacks tend to be the result of his own decisions.

We saw something similar with HWWNBN, which one analysis stated that 1/3rd to 1/2 of his sacks were his own fault. (BTW, not comparing HWWNBN to Ben, but just that specific aspect of o-line analysis.)

I've read this too. Even when not sacked it seems there are guys hanging off of him when he throws. Overall I've also heard the line hasn't been up to snuff the last 2 years. Either way, I think the guy is an elite type QB that has leadership, can throw when he has too and can manage when he has too. Good info. Thanks.

JCTexan
01-13-2011, 03:32 PM
Yes Big Ben is better. Seriously, that is a no-brainer. The guy works in a system where stats aren't even there for the taking..and he takes a pounding behind a horrible line and still wins games for them. Houston's defense , if anything, helps Schaub because half his numbers are in trash time trying to comeback from 21 down. At the end of the year you may see 4000 yards and a bunch of TDs and say he belongs but if he isn't generating offense for 2 1/2 to 3 quarters than pouring it on when teams are sitting back. I know this isn't always the case...again, I'm a Schaub fan, but the argument goes both ways.


Granted the argument can go both ways. Maybe Schaub wouldn't have 4000+ yards this year if Houston had comfortable leads instead of coming from behind in every game.


Again, I'm not arguing against Schaub. I'm arguing that there are extremists here that either think the guy is elite or that he is the reason for all the losses. The reality is he is neither but he can look like either all in the same game....see Ravens game with incredible comeback and then horrible pick.
I've read this too. Even when not sacked it seems there are guys hanging off of him when he throws. Overall I've also heard the line hasn't been up to snuff the last 2 years. Either way, I think the guy is an elite type QB that has leadership, can throw when he has too and can manage when he has too. Good info. Thanks.

What makes Roethlisberger elite but not Schaub? Houston was having to score 30 points a game to win. Pittsburgh gave up more than twenty 5 times this year (NE, NO, CIN, MIA, NYJ). Their record in those five games? 2-3. The only game they gave up more than 30 was to New England (which they lost). Houston gave up more than 20 in every game but two (Ten, Jac). They gave up thirty in 8 games this year (NYG, KC, NYJ, JAC, IND, PHI, BAL, TEN). I don't see that much difference in the two QB's to think it's a huge stretch to say Schaub is the better QB.

TheMatrix31
01-14-2011, 03:37 AM
In no order...I think top 10 is something like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Big Ben, Flacco, Ryan, Schaub, and Vick (if he's "right"). With Eli, Romo, Cutler, and Garrard right outside of that.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2011, 07:58 AM
Granted the argument can go both ways. Maybe Schaub wouldn't have 4000+ yards this year if Houston had comfortable leads instead of coming from behind in every game.




What makes Roethlisberger elite but not Schaub? Houston was having to score 30 points a game to win. Pittsburgh gave up more than twenty 5 times this year (NE, NO, CIN, MIA, NYJ). Their record in those five games? 2-3. The only game they gave up more than 30 was to New England (which they lost). Houston gave up more than 20 in every game but two (Ten, Jac). They gave up thirty in 8 games this year (NYG, KC, NYJ, JAC, IND, PHI, BAL, TEN). I don't see that much difference in the two QB's to think it's a huge stretch to say Schaub is the better QB.

Again, there is something to be said about leading a team to victory and the guy has 2 SB rings and wins games...playoff games. There were years when their running game was crap...their last SB..and he threw. He led a last minute drive to win their last SB. The difference is, he wins that game. Schaub would lead them back to being right there and then end it with an int.

By the way, AND I THINK THIS ARTICLE IS PLAIN STUPIDITY BECAUSE OF ITS METRICS, ETC, but there is an article on NFL Insider on ESPN this week saying Ben will be better than Brady and many others. Here is the link if you get insider

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6011130

burro
01-14-2011, 03:14 PM
:kubepalm:

Schaub is one of the best players on this team and one of the top 10 QBs in the league. Sometimes I think there are actually people who forgot about this guy:

http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/5/5f/Carrwtexans.jpg

HoustonFrog
01-15-2011, 07:01 PM
Again, there is something to be said about leading a team to victory and the guy has 2 SB rings and wins games...playoff games. There were years when their running game was crap...their last SB..and he threw. He led a last minute drive to win their last SB. The difference is, he wins that game. Schaub would lead them back to being right there and then end it with an int.

By the way, AND I THINK THIS ARTICLE IS PLAIN STUPIDITY BECAUSE OF ITS METRICS, ETC, but there is an article on NFL Insider on ESPN this week saying Ben will be better than Brady and many others. Here is the link if you get insider

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6011130

Did you see todays game

Roethlisberger > Schaub

JB
01-15-2011, 07:04 PM
Did you see todays game

Roethlisberger > Schaub

you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree

Nawzer
01-15-2011, 07:06 PM
Did you see todays game

Roethlisberger > Schaub


Roethlisberger definitely has accomplished more that Matt Schaub has at this point in their careers. But Schaub doesn't have to be Big Ben for the Texans to make the playoffs and successful, we just need the defense to actually play defense consistently.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2011, 07:08 PM
you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree

Sorry JB, it isn't debatable. If it is, you aren't watching football. 2 SBs. One where he led them to a last second drive on a great throw. He is 9-2 in the playoffs. He has led them when their running game is crap. He is a leader. You are not looking at reality of you think Schaub's weak arm and non-playoff time is even close. Sorry that is blind homerism.

People do know that every great QB has great players around. Most QBs out there are ranked...except Marino....on championships and playoff play. It's laughable that people buy that Schaub is better and love Schaub. I'm just realistic.

Norg
01-15-2011, 07:08 PM
I also think Schaub is a top 10 QB but has the years go by lets face it guys this Guy is dropping into the Teens IMO

gary
01-15-2011, 07:27 PM
Sorry JB, it isn't debatable. If it is, you aren't watching football. 2 SBs. One where he led them to a last second drive on a great throw. He is 9-2 in the playoffs. He has led them when their running game is crap. He is a leader. You are not looking at reality of you think Schaub's weak arm and non-playoff time is even close. Sorry that is blind homerism.

People do know that every great QB has great players around. Most QBs out there are ranked...except Marino....on championships and playoff play. It's laughable that people buy that Schaub is better and love Schaub. I'm just realistic.Amen.

Lucky
01-15-2011, 07:31 PM
you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree
By what criteria do you use where Schaub is Roethlisberger's equal or superior?

gary
01-15-2011, 07:33 PM
By what criteria do you use where Schaub is Roethlisberger's equal or superior?
They aren't. Rep to Frog he is spot on.

JB
01-15-2011, 07:39 PM
Sorry JB, it isn't debatable. If it is, you aren't watching football. 2 SBs. One where he led them to a last second drive on a great throw. He is 9-2 in the playoffs. He has led them when their running game is crap. He is a leader. You are not looking at reality of you think Schaub's weak arm and non-playoff time is even close. Sorry that is blind homerism.

People do know that every great QB has great players around. Most QBs out there are ranked...except Marino....on championships and playoff play. It's laughable that people buy that Schaub is better and love Schaub. I'm just realistic.

By what criteria do you use where Schaub is Roethlisberger's equal or superior?

I just think that if you put Schaub on the Steelers and Ben in Houston, not much would be changed. People here would be bitching about Ben, and people in Pittsburgh would be bitching about Schaub, but the team records would be about the same. To say different is just blind haterade.

Lucky
01-15-2011, 07:42 PM
...and people in Pittsburgh would be bitching about Schaub...
I'd be bitching too, if I woke up and found out that Schaub has replaced Big Ben as my QB. Seriously, is that the best answer you can come up with?

JB
01-15-2011, 07:44 PM
I'd be bitching too, if I woke up and found out that Schaub has replaced Big Ben as my QB. Seriously, is that the best answer you can come up with?

Are you going to pick out minor points of my post to make my point? If your mind is made up, it makes no difference what I say

gary
01-15-2011, 07:45 PM
I just think that if you put Schaub on the Steelers and Ben in Houston, not much would be changed. People here would be bitching about Ben, and people in Pittsburgh would be bitching about Schaub, but the team records would be about the same. To say different is just blind haterade.Ben made another big throw today to give his team yet another chance to win.

JB
01-15-2011, 07:50 PM
Ben made another big throw today to give his team yet another chance to win.

And you don't think Schaub made any of those big throws?

Lucky
01-15-2011, 07:53 PM
And you don't think Schaub made any of those big throws?
Not as many, no. And Ben doesn't have the luxury of playing with the best WR in football.

I'm no Schaub hater, but he has yet to show that he's in the Roethlisberger class. More like the Romo/Cutler class.

JB
01-15-2011, 07:56 PM
Not as many, no. And Ben doesn't have the luxury of playing with the best WR in football.

I'm no Schaub hater, but he has yet to show that he's in the Roethlisberger class. More like the Romo/Cutler class.

Ok. I just put Ben in that same class.

Give him a team defense like that the Texans have had, and Ben wouldn't have advanced any further.

gary
01-15-2011, 08:01 PM
And you don't think Schaub made any of those big throws?Maybe but Matt has not been in the playoffs for us to know. Ben has had a better career than Matt up to this point and there for is better. A better team and coaches goes a long way. It takes a team to win and Ben is on the better team and most of all he wins.

JB
01-15-2011, 08:04 PM
Maybe but Matt has not been in the playoffs for us to know. Ben has had a better career than Matt up to this point and there for is better. A better team and coaches goes a long way. It takes a team to win and Ben is on the better team and most of all he wins.

When comparing individuals, you have to compare them as individuals. You are not comparing 106 men, just 2.

Lucky
01-15-2011, 08:05 PM
Give him a team defense like that the Texans have had, and Ben wouldn't have advanced any further.
This is reminiscent of the "Give David Carr an offensive line" logic.

Roethlisberger made a play against the Ravens defense when he had to.

Schaub had a play made by the Ravens defense when he couldn't afford to.

There's the difference in a nutshell.

JB
01-15-2011, 08:08 PM
This is reminiscent of the "Give David Carr an offensive line" logic.

Roethlisberger made a play against the Ravens defense when he had to.

Schaub had a play made by the Ravens defense when he couldn't afford to.

There's the difference in a nutshell.

Point granted. But Schaub made lots of plays to bring the Texans back. Schaub ain't elite, but neither is Ben

Wolf
01-15-2011, 08:13 PM
so funny

Move the Texans defense to Pittsburgh and move the Pittsburgh defense to the Houston

Schaub and Kubiak would be praised

Wolf
01-15-2011, 08:15 PM
Point granted. But Schaub made lots of plays to bring the Texans back. Schaub ain't elite, but neither is Ben

yep, brings up chicken or the egg question


was it Schaub bringing the Texans back or was it Kubiak trimming the Denny's menu down and opening it up?

gary
01-15-2011, 08:26 PM
When comparing individuals, you have to compare them as individuals. You are not comparing 106 men, just 2.Because of the record Ben has along with the way he plays he is better. This is not Sanchez who is not that great at all but still plays for a good overall team. Ben is both great and plays for a great overall team. That throw to Santonio in the endzone was amazing and Shaub has not done that yet in that big of a game.

JB
01-15-2011, 08:30 PM
Because of the record Ben has along with the way he plays he is better. This is not Sanchez who is not that great at all but still plays for a good overall team. Ben is both great and plays for a great overall team. That throw to Santonio in the endzone was amazing and Shaub has not done that yet in that big of a game.

Ok Gary. Whatever. I guess we can agree to disagree?

Wolf
01-15-2011, 08:37 PM
well Matt puts up about 24.375 points a game

Ben puts up 23.4375 points a game

about the same there

Wolf
01-15-2011, 08:39 PM
Because of the record Ben has along with the way he plays he is better. This is not Sanchez who is not that great at all but still plays for a good overall team. Ben is both great and plays for a great overall team. That throw to Santonio in the endzone was amazing and Shaub has not done that yet in that big of a game.

i bet if that throw that Matt threw to AJ (against the Redskins) was in the superbowl, we'd all be saying "what a great throw"

just saying

JB
01-15-2011, 08:39 PM
well Matt puts up about 24.375 points a game

Ben puts up 23.4375 points a game

about the same there

yeah but,...but... look at the records!

Wolf
01-15-2011, 08:41 PM
exactly

Grams
01-15-2011, 09:12 PM
yeah but,...but... look at the records!

Steelers have a defense.

Lucky
01-15-2011, 09:17 PM
i bet if that throw that Matt threw to AJ (against the Redskins) was in the superbowl, we'd all be saying "what a great throw"

just saying
That Schaub pass was like a jump ball, Wolf. Smart play, giving the best WR in football a chance to make a play. But, it can't be construed as a great throw.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2011, 09:38 PM
JB and others...you are making things too simple...make the defenses the same..put Matt on the Steelers. Listen, Roethlisberger has legs. If Schaub was on the Steelers there is a good chance that 10-15 plays a game that Roethlisberger makes a game with his legs, strength and arm aren't made by Schaub. Guys hanging off of him, etc. That is basically a fact. The year the Steelers won against Arizona they were playing backup RBs and had minimal WR play and they won. You guys aren't looking at the reality of it. 2 SBs isn't a fluke, especially when he was the key to winning one of them. Also, your argument about Schaub and his stats would make him better than HOFers like Aikman. He didn't have gaudy stats but he was a playoff gamer who was one of the most accurate playoff passers ever and who barely threw a bad int in crunch time. These are massive differences between elite and next tier. The Ravens int by Schaub is the difference in alot of games whether it is 1st quarter or 4th. Putting up nice numbers in a system doesn't make a guy top notch.

Wolf
01-15-2011, 09:49 PM
That Schaub pass was like a jump ball, Wolf. Smart play, giving the best WR in football a chance to make a play. But, it can't be construed as a great throw.

very true but they'd be talking about it for years (if it was a super bowl throw)

doesn't really matter

this is a team sport, got to have all 4 cylinders clicking to win a super bowl

JB
01-15-2011, 10:30 PM
JB and others...you are making things too simple...make the defenses the same..put Matt on the Steelers. Listen, Roethlisberger has legs. If Schaub was on the Steelers there is a good chance that 10-15 plays a game that Roethlisberger makes a game with his legs, strength and arm aren't made by Schaub. Guys hanging off of him, etc. That is basically a fact. The year the Steelers won against Arizona they were playing backup RBs and had minimal WR play and they won. You guys aren't looking at the reality of it. 2 SBs isn't a fluke, especially when he was the key to winning one of them. Also, your argument about Schaub and his stats would make him better than HOFers like Aikman. He didn't have gaudy stats but he was a playoff gamer who was one of the most accurate playoff passers ever and who barely threw a bad int in crunch time. These are massive differences between elite and next tier. The Ravens int by Schaub is the difference in alot of games whether it is 1st quarter or 4th. Putting up nice numbers in a system doesn't make a guy top notch.

1. Yeah, Schaub would not have made some of the plays that Ben did; Schaub would not have made some of the mistakes that Ben did.

2.What?


Look, I am not saying that Schaub is elite, nor even head & shoulders above Ben. I think they are pretty equal. Both have their strong points and their weak points. But to assert that Ben is undoubtably better based on team performance is just ridiculous... imo.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2011, 10:59 PM
1. Yeah, Schaub would not have made some of the plays that Ben did; Schaub would not have made some of the mistakes that Ben did.

2.What?


Look, I am not saying that Schaub is elite, nor even head & shoulders above Ben. I think they are pretty equal. Both have their strong points and their weak points. But to assert that Ben is undoubtably better based on team performance is just ridiculous... imo.

As for #2.....that is the type of argument being made here. The only reason that Schaub, warts and all and no playoffs games would be compared to a multiple SB winner who was instrumental in his team winning it multiple times would be gaudy stats.

Some guys make the team better. Almost every great QB had a great team or others around them. They just stand head and shoulders above many. What is ridiculous is that Ben has done this multiple times but it wasn't done by other QBs in similar situations. He lead a SB game winning drive. There is no excuse for them being considered near equal. There just isn't.

Again. I love me some Schaub but I don't let it cloud the reality of what he has done vs others.

Wolf
01-15-2011, 11:14 PM
yeah and ben haven't had to be with a defense like the Texans


just a team sport

Speedy
01-16-2011, 12:02 AM
Yeah, I saw Roethlisberger play today and that's a pretty nice defense he's got there. You can say Ben made plays today all you want, but how many times did Matt Schaub make comebacks this year? You can start listing the differences between Schaub and Ben but the biggest difference is Ben's team has a defense. If Matt's did, they'd be in the playoffs too.

JCTexan
01-16-2011, 01:18 AM
Did you see todays game

Roethlisberger > Schaub

Yeah, I saw todays game. Nothing changed imo.. I saw the Steelers hand the Ravens 14 points in the first half (the 2 fumbles), then I saw the Steelers defense shutdown the Ravens offense for the entire second half (28 yards, 3 TO's). The three turnovers Balitmore had in the 2nd half resulted in Pittsburgh having the ball at the 23, 25 & 23 resulting in 17 points for Pittsburgh. One throw late in the game didn't change my opinion, though it was a hell of a throw.

Yeah, I saw Roethlisberger play today and that's a pretty nice defense he's got there. You can say Ben made plays today all you want, but how many times did Matt Schaub make comebacks this year? You can start listing the differences between Schaub and Ben but the biggest difference is Ben's team has a defense. If Matt's did, they'd be in the playoffs too.

It was the tell of two halves imo. The Ravens defense got fourteen points for Baltimore in the first half. The Steelers defense returned the favor shutting the Ravens down & getting 14 in the 2nd half.

dream_team
01-16-2011, 06:08 AM
That Schaub pass was like a jump ball, Wolf. Smart play, giving the best WR in football a chance to make a play. But, it can't be construed as a great throw.

Watch it again... as he had to shift around in the pocket and he knew he would get clocked right when he released the ball. Every great pass requires an equal great catch. That was an awesome play by both Schaub & AJ.

Doppelganger
01-16-2011, 07:13 AM
I think the more important questions is, "Where would Matt Schaub be without Andre Johnson?"

Signed,

AJ "The Beast"

Where would Joe Montana and Steve Young be without me?

Signed,

Jerry Rice

Dishman
01-16-2011, 07:28 AM
yeah and ben haven't had to be with a defense like the Texans


just a team sport



This again?? The 2009 defense was a-ok. What were our excuses for last year again?

Grams
01-16-2011, 07:49 AM
This again?? The 2009 defense was a-ok. What were our excuses for last year again?

Last year it was Brown and Brown.

GNTLEWOLF
01-16-2011, 08:00 AM
Where would Joe Montana and Steve Young be without me?

Signed,

Jerry Rice

We had already won 2 superbowls before you arrived and I was named Mvp in one of them.

Signed,

Joe Montana

JCTexan
01-16-2011, 09:18 AM
Interesting quote from Roethlisberger about his throw yesterday:

"Let's just chuck it deep," Roethlisberger told offensive coordinator Bruce Arians just before he threw his biggest pass of the season. "If they pick it, it will be a pick way down there, just as good as a punt. ... I just throw it as far as I can.'"

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers#tab:recap/recap-channels:cat-post-recap-full-story

infantrycak
01-16-2011, 09:39 AM
Interesting quote from Roethlisberger about his throw yesterday:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers#tab:recap/recap-channels:cat-post-recap-full-story

Yup, that was all Big Ben "accuracy" there. I swear it is incredible people act like WR's are just standing 50 yards down field on a bullseye and any semi-decent QB can hit them on the numbers. Balls over 40 yards are a magic of coordination between QB and WR. It isn't target shooting.

This discussion is kind of ironic. I spent yesterday afternoon watching the Steelers game with over 100 die hard Steelers fans. They didn't have near as high an impression of Big Ben as some of the bow down in homage stuff in here.

gary
01-16-2011, 10:40 AM
How good would Brady be if he was on the Redskins or Lions? Still pretty good but probably not nearly as great because I don't care how good you are this is not golf or car racing. You have to have recievers to catch passes and all the other key peices which make the team a winner. It is not just about having Brady throw the deep pass or AJ to catch it on the other end otherwise the Texans would have been in the playoffs by now. The what if game is all we have to go on but every member of Steelers staff and their winning attitude they have has made Ben the QB he is today. If you ask me who I would rather have lead my team in the last sixty seconds of the Superbowl I'd choose Ben over Matt because he has been there and done that before. If the Texans make a Superbowl with Shaub I'd have faith in him to get the job done and I would have to roll with who I have. No team is allowed to just pick another QB to start in the Superbowl you have to play your starter from day number one but that does not mean I would not rather have Ben due to his big game experience and also knowing what it takes to win. Give me a QB with a 9-2 playoff record over a QB who has not even sniffed the playoffs before which granted is not all his fault by any means. But at the end of the day I'll take Ben's record anytime JMO.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2011, 11:31 AM
How good would Brady be if he was on the Redskins or Lions? Still pretty good but probably not nearly as great because I don't care how good you are this is not golf or car racing. You have to have recievers to catch passes and all the other key peices which make the team a winner. It is not just about having Brady throw the deep pass or AJ to catch it on the other end otherwise the Texans would have been in the playoffs by now. The what if game is all we have to go on but every member of Steelers staff and their winning attitude they have has made Ben the QB he is today. If you ask me who I would rather have lead my team in the last sixty seconds of the Superbowl I'd choose Ben over Matt because he has been there and done that before. If the Texans make a Superbowl with Shaub I'd have faith in him to get the job done and I would have to roll with who I have. No team is allowed to just pick another QB to start in the Superbowl you have to play your starter from day number one but that does not mean I would not rather have Ben due to his big game experience and also knowing what it takes to win. Give me a QB with a 9-2 playoff record over a QB who has not even sniffed the playoffs before which granted is not all his fault by any means. But at the end of the day I'll take Ben's record anytime JMO.

Gary, forget it. This is the exact reason I took a break from the board. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation without any kind of deep seated homerism and excuses sneaking in....."well give Schaub blah, blah, blah" without the reality of how the 2 guys work differently in the pocket or how one guy wins playoff and SB games or how every great QB in the NFL didn't do it on his own.If you listen to people here Schaub would be as successful as Montana because "if you put him on that 49ers team..." People forget about pocket presence, accuracy, etc when it comes to making the throws.

Where would Joe Montana and Steve Young be without me?

Signed,

Jerry Rice

This makes my above point exactly..no one does it on their own but many are great because of how they handle it. Ben is greater than Schaub for those reasons.

gary
01-16-2011, 11:39 AM
Gary, forget it. This is the exact reason I took a break from the board. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation without any kind of deep seated homerism and excuses sneaking in....."well give Schaub blah, blah, blah" without the reality of how the 2 guys work differently in the pocket or how one guy wins playoff and SB games or how every great QB in the NFL didn't do it on his own.If you listen to people here Schaub would be as successful as Montana because "if you put him on that 49ers team..." People forget about pocket presence, accuracy, etc when it comes to making the throws.



This makes my above point exactly..no one does it on their own but many are great because of how they handle it. Ben is greater than Schaub for those reasons.Just coming from a winning culture I'd choose Ben he is just part of a winning breed which is what truely matters in this team game.

infantrycak
01-16-2011, 11:41 AM
Gary, forget it. This is the exact reason I took a break from the board. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation without any kind of deep seated homerism and excuses sneaking in.....

Oh please stop with the self-serving crap you have been dishing out lately with your repeated assertions of "reality" and accusations of homerism. Not agreeing with you isn't the definition of homer. There are legitimate disagreements of opinion. Great you think Ben is much superior. Cool. State that and move on

gary
01-16-2011, 11:44 AM
I don't care who agrees with me it is all a matter of our opinion.

JB
01-16-2011, 11:46 AM
Gary, forget it. This is the exact reason I took a break from the board. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation without any kind of deep seated homerism and excuses sneaking in....."well give Schaub blah, blah, blah" without the reality of how the 2 guys work differently in the pocket or how one guy wins playoff and SB games or how every great QB in the NFL didn't do it on his own.If you listen to people here Schaub would be as successful as Montana because "if you put him on that 49ers team..." People forget about pocket presence, accuracy, etc when it comes to making the throws.



This makes my above point exactly..no one does it on their own but many are great because of how they handle it. Ben is greater than Schaub for those reasons.

Sorry Frog, but you seem to be getting real upset that everyone doesn't agree with your opinion. I happen to think that Schaub is as good as Ben, but he excels in different ways. I think he is a better WC qb. But Ben is very good also.

JCTexan
01-16-2011, 12:09 PM
Gary, forget it. This is the exact reason I took a break from the board. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation without any kind of deep seated homerism and excuses sneaking in....."well give Schaub blah, blah, blah" without the reality of how the 2 guys work differently in the pocket or how one guy wins playoff and SB games or how every great QB in the NFL didn't do it on his own.If you listen to people here Schaub would be as successful as Montana because "if you put him on that 49ers team..." People forget about pocket presence, accuracy, etc when it comes to making the throws.



This makes my above point exactly..no one does it on their own but many are great because of how they handle it. Ben is greater than Schaub for those reasons.

The only legitimate point you have made that Roethlisberger is better is that he wins games. That doesn't make him better than Schaub to me considering the Steelers defense compared to the Texans. I already mentioned in a post I don't have winning games as the main criteria of who is better. The game yesterday didn't change my opinion just because their defense gave them seventeen of their points because of field position, & also shutdown the Ravens offense the entire 2nd half allowing only 28 yards. Roethlisberger also mentioned that his amazing throw late in the game was a jump ball. If it was picked it would have been like a punt.

Just my opinion, and it seems like we're beating a dead horse, so I'll just agree-to-disagree on this subject.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2011, 12:32 PM
Oh please stop with the self-serving crap you have been dishing out lately with your repeated assertions of "reality" and accusations of homerism. Not agreeing with you isn't the definition of homer. There are legitimate disagreements of opinion. Great you think Ben is much superior. Cool. State that and move on

Really Cak because you have become king of defending anything...not like you care or it matters. I remember coming here and you were among many that could look at both sides of things. Now it is basically "on the right track" or we can plug Schaub into any great team and make him a champ. Not self serving at all. I just find it funny that putting Schaub on Pitt would make him great when it doesn't take into consideration how the QBs are different in the systems, etc. Ben's playoff work has been minimized to pump up pure chucking it stats. Afterall they started winning SBs again under him and not other QBs in the same system. Always respecting you around here but I look behind my back lately because you seem to be on the cavalry to ride in and say people are wrong on the team. No offense.

You are right, I'll move along and allow people to discuss how great Schaub would be on a 70s Pitt team....probably the greatest ever...that lucky Terry Bradshaw.

JB, I'm not upset at all. I'm disappointed that lately no matter what case is made in the slightest about a Texan player or coach, then it makes someone a hater. I throw out Kubiak stats and somehow I'm blindly hating on the team or guy after 5 years. I say Schaub is Top 12...2 below Top 10 and people act like I flipped off their mother or just didn't get it. Roethlisberger is considered an elite QB by most pros out there. That got turned into Schaub hating despite saying otherwise. The defensiveness is overwhelming.

JC, you are right...hand shake.

gary
01-16-2011, 01:00 PM
We may say if this or that were different than things would be different but they are are not. We won't ever know but we do know what the record shows today. That's all. I'm done.

PHAROAH
01-16-2011, 07:13 PM
The only legitimate point you have made that Roethlisberger is better is that he wins games. That doesn't make him better than Schaub to me considering the Steelers defense compared to the Texans. I already mentioned in a post I don't have winning games as the main criteria of who is better. The game yesterday didn't change my opinion just because their defense gave them seventeen of their points because of field position, & also shutdown the Ravens offense the entire 2nd half allowing only 28 yards. Roethlisberger also mentioned that his amazing throw late in the game was a jump ball. If it was picked it would have been like a punt.

Just my opinion, and it seems like we're beating a dead horse, so I'll just agree-to-disagree on this subject.Ben Rothlisberger is better than Shaub he has two super bowl championships to show for it and Shaub hasn't made it to the playoffs yet so there is no comparison in my book and I know the first thing you guys like to do is run to the stats, well in this case you might as well throw out the stats it make no since to me.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 09:59 AM
I want to apologize real quick for being a little edgier lately. Just alot going on and I'm being a little bitter about stuff. My bad!!Face Palm myself :wadepalm:

JB
01-17-2011, 10:04 AM
No worries Frog! :handshake:

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 10:04 AM
Ben Rothlisberger is better than Shaub he has two super bowl championships to show for it and Shaub hasn't made it to the playoffs yet so there is no comparison in my book and I know the first thing you guys like to do is run to the stats, well in this case you might as well throw out the stats it make no since to me.

Yeah, b/c its not a team game or anything.......

HOU-TEX
01-17-2011, 10:36 AM
I'm not going to get into the whole who's better BS, but imo, those who are underestimating the significance of the QB having an elite defense are being naive.

Steelers D rankings since Ben came into the league in 04:

2004: 1
2005: 4
2006: 9
2007: 1
2008: 1
2009: 5
2010: 2

Texans D:

2004: 23
2005: 31
2006: 24
2007: 24 (Schaub's 1st year)
2008: 22
2009: 13
2010: 30

I think most know how upset I was after last season. Last season was a lost opportunity.

Again, I'm not going to debate which QB's better. However, I will say that I think Schaub can be the QB that can get us to the playoffs if he were given the type of defenses the Steelers have had.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 10:44 AM
The only legitimate point you have made that Roethlisberger is better is that he wins games. That doesn't make him better than Schaub....

Has anyone been watching the games from the last two weeks?

We've been seeing some pretty awesome QB play. From Big Ben to Jay Cutler, to Sanchez, etc....

Those guys have been doing what it takes to win. & I'm sorry if you don't see 'Frogs point, but it's pretty blatant.

When the play breaks down, those guys have something that Schaub lacks in a big way. We saw Schaub put some of that together at the end of the 2009 season. Making things happen.

Schaub is great before the snap. Maybe one of the best of all time. When things go as planed, he's hard to beat. Throw a wrinkle in there after the snap & he's at the bottom of the list.

I don't know if that makes Ben better than Schaub. I certainly don't think Sanchez is better than Schaub.

But I do understand why we would be having this conversation...

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 10:48 AM
Roethlisberger is considered an elite QB by most pros out there.

That word, elite, doesn't mean what it used to.

Kinda like Diva. Now, any ***** with a microphone is a damn diva.

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 11:27 AM
Has anyone been watching the games from the last two weeks?

We've been seeing some pretty awesome QB play. From Big Ben to Jay Cutler, to Sanchez, etc....

Those guys have been doing what it takes to win. & I'm sorry if you don't see 'Frogs point, but it's pretty blatant.

When the play breaks down, those guys have something that Schaub lacks in a big way. We saw Schaub put some of that together at the end of the 2009 season. Making things happen.

Schaub is great before the snap. Maybe one of the best of all time. When things go as planed, he's hard to beat. Throw a wrinkle in there after the snap & he's at the bottom of the list.

I don't know if that makes Ben better than Schaub. I certainly don't think Sanchez is better than Schaub.

But I do understand why we would be having this conversation...

His 1st SB run he was asked to do absolutely nothing & what he was asked to do he looked terrible...Ok, you can say he was a young guy still learning the nuances of the position at this level.....He also had a top ranked defense keeping him afloat.

His 2nd SB run, Yeah he made some plays, But his TD to int ratio was like 1:1...& he didn't even throw that many..& he didn't have to as it was still all about that defense as Harrison won DPOY, & Polamalu was healthy & playing his usual lights out.

This weekend, Ben damn near cost them the game pump faking 78907 times. If that defense doesn't shut the ravens down to the tune of something like 48 yards in all of the 2nd half.."Big Ben" might very well be sitting at the crib right now.

The year his defense wasn't too hot, they didn't even make the playoffs & he was horrible.

He's a solid qb but i doubt he has anything close to the success he's had with some of the teams Schaub has been forced to play with.


Dude is quite possibly the most overrated qb ever....

Schaub is right there with him imo.

P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Rivers

These are the only guys CLEARLY ahead of him. everyone else i have no doubt he could hang with if he had a quality team around him.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 11:35 AM
I'm not going to get into the whole who's better BS, but imo, those who are underestimating the significance of the QB having an elite defense are being naive.

Steelers D rankings since Ben came into the league in 04:

2004: 1
2005: 4
2006: 9
2007: 1
2008: 1
2009: 5
2010: 2

Texans D:

2004: 23
2005: 31
2006: 24
2007: 24 (Schaub's 1st year)
2008: 22
2009: 13
2010: 30

I think most know how upset I was after last season. Last season was a lost opportunity.

Again, I'm not going to debate which QB's better. However, I will say that I think Schaub can be the QB that can get us to the playoffs if he were given the type of defenses the Steelers have had.

Again sorry about my brand above(so I'll keep it light :)) but I'll tell you why this type of analysis has its pros and cons in my book. And I'm not just talking Schaub v Roethlisberger unless stated...just general.

1) You are right. A great defense makes it easier to win games. BUT

1a) A bad defense also allows a QB to put up massive passing numbers late in games when a team is down 10-14 points...as happened this year with Schaub. Not counting it against him...the defense sucked...but they also started slow in alot of games and had to pass and hurry up late.

2) Schaub would do better HERE, in Houston, with a better defense and this offensive system BUT

2a) The key to #2 is HERE. I don't ever buy the whole...plug him in elsewhere and he does just as well. Certain guys fit certain molds. Ben may hold onto the ball too long but his legs and strength...body and arm..save alot of plays there that I don't think Schaub makes. Same in alot of systems...you have to look at what skill set they have. Some say Romo sucks but the reality is the guy has put up good numbers running for his life behind an old and bad line. A statue type QB might get torched and pummeled so I just think you walk a thin line when doing the whole plug and play comparisons.

3) If we are talking Schaub v Big Ben, Ben's stats aren't even that bad where it puts Schaub above him to me. Last year Ben had 4,328 yds, 26 TDs and 12 ints. This year, with 4 games out because of suspension he has 3200, 17 and 5. That is pretty strong. His play is a definite plus. It isn't like he is riding the D and being game manager. He is 9-2 in playoff games and most of these guys who win multiple SBs have intangibles. We all have seen it. At the end of games he makes the right plays and throws.

4) I agree that Schaub can be a playoff QB with the right parts. I think he is a Top 12 guy and could go up. I have concerns about arm strength and teams who apply heavy pressure because of his legs, etc. I also have concerns about the 1-2 dumb ints that come into play. But you never know until he gets there and you can see how he reacts.

His 1st SB run he was asked to do absolutely nothing & what he was asked to do he looked terrible...Ok, you can say he was a young guy still learning the nuances of the position at this level.....He also had a top ranked defense keeping him afloat.

His 2nd SB run, Yeah he made some plays, But his TD to int ratio was like 1:1...& he didn't even throw that many..& he didn't have to as it was still all about that defense as Harrison won DPOY, & Polamalu was healthy & playing his usual lights out.

This weekend, Ben damn near cost them the game pump faking 78907 times. If that defense doesn't shut the ravens down to the tune of something like 48 yards in all of the 2nd half.."Big Ben" might very well be sitting at the crib right now.

The year his defense wasn't too hot, they didn't even make the playoffs & he was horrible.

He's a solid qb but i doubt he has anything close to the success he's had with some of the teams Schaub has been forced to play with.


Dude is quite possibly the most overrated qb ever....

Schaub is right there with him imo.

P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Rivers

These are the only guys CLEARLY ahead of him. everyone else i have no doubt he could hang with if he had a quality team around him.

This is the type of analysis that makes no sense to me. See the stats above that I mentioned and the analysis on plugging a guy into a team structure.

DexmanC
01-17-2011, 11:54 AM
Has anyone been watching the games from the last two weeks?

We've been seeing some pretty awesome QB play. From Big Ben to Jay Cutler, to Sanchez, etc....

Those guys have been doing what it takes to win. & I'm sorry if you don't see 'Frogs point, but it's pretty blatant.

When the play breaks down, those guys have something that Schaub lacks in a big way. We saw Schaub put some of that together at the end of the 2009 season. Making things happen.

Schaub is great before the snap. Maybe one of the best of all time. When things go as planed, he's hard to beat. Throw a wrinkle in there after the snap & he's at the bottom of the list.

I don't know if that makes Ben better than Schaub. I certainly don't think Sanchez is better than Schaub.

But I do understand why we would be having this conversation...

I will begin referring to the Texans quarterback as "Stats" Schaub.

People were saying he's better than Cutler, I've always been "yeah, right."
Cutler has a rocket arm, no all-world receiver, but finds ways to win
games. That Denver coach was a moron for making his first act to
put Cutler's name on the trading block.

HOU-TEX
01-17-2011, 12:04 PM
Again sorry about my brand above(so I'll keep it light :)) but I'll tell you why this type of analysis has its pros and cons in my book. And I'm not just talking Schaub v Roethlisberger unless stated...just general.

1) You are right. A great defense makes it easier to win games. BUT

1a) A bad defense also allows a QB to put up massive passing numbers late in games when a team is down 10-14 points...as happened this year with Schaub. Not counting it against him...the defense sucked...but they also started slow in alot of games and had to pass and hurry up late.

2) Schaub would do better HERE, in Houston, with a better defense and this offensive system BUT

2a) The key to #2 is HERE. I don't ever buy the whole...plug him in elsewhere and he does just as well. Certain guys fit certain molds. Ben may hold onto the ball too long but his legs and strength...body and arm..save alot of plays there that I don't think Schaub makes. Same in alot of systems...you have to look at what skill set they have. Some say Romo sucks but the reality is the guy has put up good numbers running for his life behind an old and bad line. A statue type QB might get torched and pummeled so I just think you walk a thin line when doing the whole plug and play comparisons.

3) If we are talking Schaub v Big Ben, Ben's stats aren't even that bad where it puts Schaub above him to me. Last year Ben had 4,328 yds, 26 TDs and 12 ints. This year, with 4 games out because of suspension he has 3200, 17 and 5. That is pretty strong. His play is a definite plus. It isn't like he is riding the D and being game manager. He is 9-2 in playoff games and most of these guys who win multiple SBs have intangibles. We all have seen it. At the end of games he makes the right plays and throws.

4) I agree that Schaub can be a playoff QB with the right parts. I think he is a Top 12 guy and could go up. I have concerns about arm strength and teams who apply heavy pressure because of his legs, etc. I also have concerns about the 1-2 dumb ints that come into play. But you never know until he gets there and you can see how he reacts.


1a.) Like you said, it doesn't count against him.

2a.) Like I said, I wasn't going to play the "plug and play" game. I don't care what who would do what in another system.

3.) I wasn't talking Schaub vs anyone.

4.) We agree Schaub can be the guy. Not to make an excuse, but every QB in the league makes mistakes

Sorry, but you quoted me. I just wanted to reaffirm my position regarding the Schaub vs whoever crud

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:12 PM
He's a solid qb but i doubt he has anything close to the success he's had with some of the teams Schaub has been forced to play with.


Dude is quite possibly the most overrated qb ever....

Schaub is right there with him imo.

P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Rivers

These are the only guys CLEARLY ahead of him. everyone else i have no doubt he could hang with if he had a quality team around him.

I'm not making the argument that Ben is better than Schaub. Only that there is a part of Ben's game I wish Matt had.

Some guys like pink.... some like red... some guys like both.

Sky is blue, water is wet..... etc, etc, etc....

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 12:22 PM
1a.) Like you said, it doesn't count against him.

2a.) Like I said, I wasn't going to play the "plug and play" game. I don't care what who would do what in another system.

3.) I wasn't talking Schaub vs anyone.

4.) We agree Schaub can be the guy. Not to make an excuse, but every QB in the league makes mistakes

Sorry, but you quoted me. I just wanted to reaffirm my position regarding the Schaub vs whoever crud

Cool. I just used your post because the defense issue got my head turning. Sorry, wasn't trying to counter you or make it seem it was towards you. I just had been all over the place in the thread and wanted one big plus/minus board. :)

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 12:30 PM
Again sorry about my brand above(so I'll keep it light :)) but I'll tell you why this type of analysis has its pros and cons in my book. And I'm not just talking Schaub v Roethlisberger unless stated...just general.

1) You are right. A great defense makes it easier to win games. BUT

1a) A bad defense also allows a QB to put up massive passing numbers late in games when a team is down 10-14 points...as happened this year with Schaub. Not counting it against him...the defense sucked...but they also started slow in alot of games and had to pass and hurry up late.

2) Schaub would do better HERE, in Houston, with a better defense and this offensive system BUT

2a) The key to #2 is HERE. I don't ever buy the whole...plug him in elsewhere and he does just as well. Certain guys fit certain molds. Ben may hold onto the ball too long but his legs and strength...body and arm..save alot of plays there that I don't think Schaub makes. Same in alot of systems...you have to look at what skill set they have. Some say Romo sucks but the reality is the guy has put up good numbers running for his life behind an old and bad line. A statue type QB might get torched and pummeled so I just think you walk a thin line when doing the whole plug and play comparisons.

3) If we are talking Schaub v Big Ben, Ben's stats aren't even that bad where it puts Schaub above him to me. Last year Ben had 4,328 yds, 26 TDs and 12 ints. This year, with 4 games out because of suspension he has 3200, 17 and 5. That is pretty strong. His play is a definite plus. It isn't like he is riding the D and being game manager. He is 9-2 in playoff games and most of these guys who win multiple SBs have intangibles. We all have seen it. At the end of games he makes the right plays and throws.

4) I agree that Schaub can be a playoff QB with the right parts. I think he is a Top 12 guy and could go up. I have concerns about arm strength and teams who apply heavy pressure because of his legs, etc. I also have concerns about the 1-2 dumb ints that come into play. But you never know until he gets there and you can see how he reacts.



This is the type of analysis that makes no sense to me. See the stats above that I mentioned and the analysis on plugging a guy into a team structure.


I get what you're trying to say, but every qb's got strengths & weaknesses. The difference in our analysis is that you're counting 1 of his weaknesses as a strength. Make no mistake about it, holding onto the ball too long is a weakness b/c for every play you're making running around holding the ball forever, there's a negative play to go right along with them in the form of fumbles, sack fumbles, an injury, or throwing a pick. At the very least it's a double edge sword that coaches don't like their qb's to play with. Also, it's just my opinion, but i think he does benefit more from having a great defense year in & out than that great defense benefits from him. it's all moot b/c we know this is obviously something schaub hasn't had since he's been here.

The stat that everyone like to hang their hat on with Ben (SB's won) isn't a stat that's totally his to begin with as it's a team game & those years the steelers won, it was largely b/c of the defense- not saying he's not helping, but those defenses he had were ridiculous.

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 12:42 PM
Make no mistake about it, holding onto the ball too long is a weakness b/c for every play you're making running around holding the ball forever, there's a negative play to go right along with them in the form of fumbles, sack fumbles, an injury, or throwing a pick.

I think the league is pretty good at rooting those players out. Ben, obviously, falls on the plus side of that equation, or he wouldn't be starting... definitely wouldn't have 2 Super Bowl rings.

Jon Kitna (though I like to watch him play) comes to mind. If you can't get on the plus side.... positive vs negative plays.. you don't last long as a starter.

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 12:58 PM
I think the league is pretty good at rooting those players out. Ben, obviously, falls on the plus side of that equation, or he wouldn't be starting... definitely wouldn't have 2 Super Bowl rings.

Jon Kitna (though I like to watch him play) comes to mind. If you can't get on the plus side.... positive vs negative plays.. you don't last long as a starter.

Don't be so sure...before this year, he'd taken 40+ sacks had thrown double digit ints, & at least 5 fumbles for 4 straight years. Of the fumbles he had, he lost nearly half of them each of those years. We also know he's had his fair share of injuries over the years.

You look across the league at the top guys, they may suck in 1 of those categories...(usually ints) but certainly not in all 4.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2011, 01:01 PM
I get what you're trying to say, but every qb's got strengths & weaknesses. The difference in our analysis is that you're counting 1 of his weaknesses as a strength. Make no mistake about it, holding onto the ball too long is a weakness b/c for every play you're making running around holding the ball forever, there's a negative play to go right along with them in the form of fumbles, sack fumbles, an injury, or throwing a pick. At the very least it's a double edge sword that coaches don't like their qb's to play with. Also, it's just my opinion, but i think he does benefit more from having a great defense year in & out than that great defense benefits from him. it's all moot b/c we know this is obviously something schaub hasn't had since he's been here.

The stat that everyone like to hang their hat on with Ben (SB's won) isn't a stat that's totally his to begin with as it's a team game & those years the steelers won, it was largely b/c of the defense- not saying he's not helping, but those defenses he had were ridiculous.

Actually I think holding on too long where sacks happen is a weakness at times but I think he turns it around and uses it more for the team benefit overall. It is a chicken and the egg argument on their offensive line woes but overall he makes more plays than he loses it seems with his legs and strength. I mean 17 and 5 is a pretty strong ratio. So were last years stats. Except for his first 2 years the guy goes over 3000 a year. I made this comment a few pages back but once the playoffs hit I judge guys on a different level. Aikman never had gaudy stats but he was one of the most accurate passers in playoff history and he won games...big games..and did alot on crunch time. Accuracy is highly underrated. Again, this all goes towards guys in systems and what they can do when the pressure is on.

Don't be so sure...before this year, he'd taken 40+ sacks had thrown double digit ints, & at least 5 fumbles for 4 straight years. Of the fumbles he had, he lost nearly half of them each of those years. We also know he's had his fair share of injuries over the years.

You look across the league at the top guys, they may suck in 1 of those categories...(usually ints) but certainly not in all 4.

And yet his passer rating the last 4 years going backward is 97, 100.5, 80.1, 104.1. Not too shabby there at all. How are all these stats overrated when he then wins in big games too. That is what I'm wondering.

I'll stop here. As JC said earlier, I think we have worn it out. I did want to lay out the Schaub stuff though...the response the page before. I would like to see what he has when he is in the bigger games...playoffs.

JCTexan
01-17-2011, 01:04 PM
Has anyone been watching the games from the last two weeks?

We've been seeing some pretty awesome QB play. From Big Ben to Jay Cutler, to Sanchez, etc....

Those guys have been doing what it takes to win. & I'm sorry if you don't see 'Frogs point, but it's pretty blatant.

When the play breaks down, those guys have something that Schaub lacks in a big way. We saw Schaub put some of that together at the end of the 2009 season. Making things happen.

Schaub is great before the snap. Maybe one of the best of all time. When things go as planed, he's hard to beat. Throw a wrinkle in there after the snap & he's at the bottom of the list.

I don't know if that makes Ben better than Schaub. I certainly don't think Sanchez is better than Schaub.

But I do understand why we would be having this conversation...

Yeah, I watched the games this past weekend. I have to say Aaron Rodgers was beastly against Atlanta, & Cutler destroyed the Seahawks defense. It just seemed to me the AFC games were decided on the defensive side of the ball. In the second half the Steelers defense got Roethlisberger the ball inside the 25 three times resulting in 17 of their points. I don't know if I have seen Brady contained that much in a game. The Jets rush defense will give Roethlisberger fits if he holds onto the ball too long. The NYJ-Pitt game is going to be a hell of a defensive game.

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 01:13 PM
Actually I think holding on too long where sacks happen is a weakness at times but I think he turns it around and uses it more for the team benefit overall. It is a chicken and the egg argument on their offensive line woes but overall he makes more plays than he loses it seems with his legs and strength. I mean 17 and 5 is a pretty strong ratio. So were last years stats. Except for his first 2 years the guy goes over 3000 a year. I made this comment a few pages back but once the playoffs hit I judge guys on a different level. Aikman never had gaudy stats but he was one of the most accurate passers in playoff history and he won games...big games..and did alot on crunch time. Accuracy is highly underrated. Again, this all goes towards guys in systems and what they can do when the pressure is on.



And yet his passer rating the last 4 years going backward is 97, 100.5, 80.1, 104.1. Not too shabby there at all. How are all these stats overrated when he then wins in big games too. That is what I'm wondering.

I'll stop here. As JC said earlier, I think we have worn it out. I did want to lay out the Schaub stuff though...the response the page before. I would like to see what he has when he is in the bigger games...playoffs.

You're right, it isn't too shabby except for that 80.1 rating which is ironically his 2nd sb run which kinda proves my point. Even when the guy isn't that great, he still has been able to win b/c of He's always had an amazing defense to rely on. Not saying ben's a bum, i just think he's not nearly as special as some fans make him out to be.

yeah, we should probably give it a rest..lol

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 01:23 PM
Even when the guy isn't that great, he still has been able to win b/c of He's always had an amazing defense to rely on. Not saying ben's a bum, i just think he's not nearly as special as some fans make him out to be.


No doubt about it. Schaub can be the exact same guy he's been for the last 4 years. If the Texans managed to somehow average 10 wins over that time period.... a couple of play-off games..... AFC Championship games.... a Super Bowl appearance or two. He'd be looked at differently.

Mr teX
01-17-2011, 01:33 PM
No doubt about it. Schaub can be the exact same guy he's been for the last 4 years. If the Texans managed to somehow average 10 wins over that time period.... a couple of play-off games..... AFC Championship games.... a Super Bowl appearance or two. He'd be looked at differently.

lol, was that sarcasm t-skyss?

devo-x
01-17-2011, 02:15 PM
I would like to see Schaub play with an average to good defense though

thunderkyss
01-17-2011, 04:18 PM
lol, was that sarcasm t-skyss?

Not really.... I do understand the humor though.

The point is that if we were consistently in the play-offs, even with Matt's shortcomings, he'd be considered elite by more than just the couple hundred fans in Houston.

Rothlisberger.... I know it's the if this/that game, but if he weren't winning Super Bowls his warts would be a lot uglier.

Grams
01-17-2011, 05:17 PM
Rothlisberger.... I know it's the if this/that game, but if he weren't winning Super Bowls his warts would be a lot uglier.

If he was the Texans QB , we ALL would be calling for his head.

edo783
01-17-2011, 09:57 PM
IMO, Roger's is the next big time player in the Bardy/payton type echelon. The other MIGHT be Rivers. Matt Ryan MAY get there . Joe Flacco in Matt Schaub, near elite, but not quit, but VERY VERY good. Cutler is just to inconsistent at this point to be in that realm. May get there, but not yet.

SteveSlaton20
01-17-2011, 11:13 PM
I think the more important questions is, "Where would Matt Schaub be without Andre Johnson?"

Signed,

AJ "The Beast"

actually, it's where would AJ be without Schaub?

have you seen AJ's stats with Carr and his stats with Schaub?

run-david-run
01-18-2011, 10:27 PM
Look man I want a winner and sure his stats look great in a system built for QB's to be successful but I have never seen shaub put this team on his back and win consistantly with multiple players on this offense who made it to pro-bowl since you guys insist on saying that he is a top 10 QB where is your proof since my rant is bad. When has Mr. Shaub taken us to the playoffs in 4 season 0. Look man i'm tired of losing and it kills me when you guys bring up his stats to prove that he is top 10 QB that is pure garbage then you guys who love shaub get mad when we call him out like he is untouchable.

How is throwing for 4,700 yards with no running game at all two seasons ago not putting the team on his back? What more do you want from a QB?
As for not getting it done in late game situations, what games are you watching? Washington, KC, back-to-back 90+ yard drives on Baltimore and a 2 point conversion with 40 seconds left. The Miami game a few years ago, the Green Bay game that same season. The four times we got to the 1 yard line or field goal range to tie the game and K(Ch)ris Brown lost it for us.
That's a ridiculous list of late game success for a QB. I would go on a limb and say he has more game winning or game tying drives in the 4th Q than any QB in the NFL over the past 3 years.
:kubepalm:

HoustonFrog
01-19-2011, 01:08 PM
You're right, it isn't too shabby except for that 80.1 rating which is ironically his 2nd sb run which kinda proves my point. Even when the guy isn't that great, he still has been able to win b/c of He's always had an amazing defense to rely on. Not saying ben's a bum, i just think he's not nearly as special as some fans make him out to be.

yeah, we should probably give it a rest..lol

. I would go on a limb and say he has more game winning or game tying drives in the 4th Q than any QB in the NFL over the past 3 years.
:kubepalm:


Saw this and just wanted to put it out there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger

Roethlisberger has been one of the most efficient passers in NFL history. He currently ranks 8th all-time in NFL passer rating (92.5), 5th in yards per attempt (8.04), and 12th in completion percentage (63.07%) among quarterbacks with a minimum of 1500 career attempts. He has the 4th highest career winning percentage (.704) as a starter in the regular season among quarterbacks with a minimum of 90 starts.


Only reason I was doing more research is the question below this on 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives. It seems you can do queries on this on Pro-Football-Reference.com. It was cited in this part. Run David Run I'm trying to find recent info to see where Schaub is

Comebacks/game-winning drives in the fourth quarter/overtimeRoethlisberger set a NFL rookie record in 2004 with five comeback wins in the fourth quarter, and six game-winning drives in the fourth quarter/overtime (including one playoff game).[77][78] Roethlisberger has the most comeback wins through the first seven seasons of a player's career with 19.[79]

So I did a Query of 4th Quarter Comebacks/Game Winning Drives from 2007-2010 Regular Season and this was the result

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=2007&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&league_id=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&comeback=Y&gwd=Y&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td

1 Jay Cutler 2007 2010 DEN/CHI 11 0 0 11
2 Peyton Manning 2007 2009 IND 11 0 0 11
3 Drew Brees 2007 2010 NOR 9 0 0 9
4 David Garrard 2007 2010 JAX 8 0 0 8
5 Eli Manning 2007 2010 NYG 8 0 0 8
6 Ben Roethlisberger 2007 2010 PIT 8 0 0 8
7 Matt Ryan 2008 2010 ATL 8 0 0 8
8 Tom Brady 2007 2010 NWE 7 0 0 7
9 Josh Freeman 2009 2010 TAM 7 0 0 7
10 Philip Rivers 2007 2010 SDG 7 0 0 7
11 Tony Romo 2007 2009 DAL 7 0 0 7
12 Matt Schaub 2007 2010 HOU 7 0 0 7
13 Jake Delhomme 2008 2010 CAR/CLE 6 0 0 6
14 Brett Favre 2007 2010 GNB/NYJ/MIN 6 0 0 6
15 Donovan McNabb 2007 2010 PHI/WAS 6 0 0 6
16 Kyle Orton 2008 2010 CHI/DEN 6 0 0 6
17 Carson Palmer 2007 2010 CIN 6 0 0 6
18 Jason Campbell 2007 2010 WAS/OAK 5 0 0 5
19 Derek Anderson 2007 2010 CLE/ARI 4 0 0 4
20 Matt Cassel 2008 2010 NWE/KAN 4 0 0 4

Second Honeymoon
01-19-2011, 01:18 PM
..In The Playoffs.

ZING!

Kubiak sucks and the Texans will suck as long as Kubiak/Smith and Carebear McNair are in charge

HOU-TEX
01-19-2011, 01:22 PM
..In The Playoffs.

ZING!

Kubiak sucks and the Texans will suck as long as Kubiak/Smith and Carebear McNair are in charge

Considering the fact McNair's the owner will likely be here for a very long time, where will you be? I mean, if you think the Texans will suck as long as McNair's around why would you stick around?

infantrycak
01-19-2011, 02:05 PM
So I did a Query of 4th Quarter Comebacks/Game Winning Drives from 2007-2010 Regular Season and this was the result

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&year_min=2007&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&league_id=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_type=R&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&game_day_of_week=&game_location=&game_result=&comeback=Y&gwd=Y&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pass_td

So however they picked list people Ben had 1 more than Schaub.

Roethlisberger has been one of the most efficient passers in NFL history. He currently ranks 8th all-time in NFL passer rating (92.5), 5th in yards per attempt (8.04), and 12th in completion percentage (63.07%) among quarterbacks with a minimum of 1500 career attempts. He has the 4th highest career winning percentage (.704) as a starter in the regular season among quarterbacks with a minimum of 90 starts.

To bad they don't have a similar list for Schaub.
92.5 v. 90.9 QB rating
8.0 v. 7.7 ypa
63.07 v. 64.6 completion %
Clearly Schaub blown out on winning %

texanchris
01-19-2011, 02:23 PM
I would like to see Schaub play with an average to good defense though

last year?

Second Honeymoon
01-19-2011, 03:24 PM
Considering the fact McNair's the owner will likely be here for a very long time, where will you be? I mean, if you think the Texans will suck as long as McNair's around why would you stick around?

Have the Texans sucked for as long as McNair has been here or for that matter, as long as the Texans have existed? The answer is yes.

As for McNair, he needs to either start being a competent owner or get out of the way. The fact that we are going into our 10th Season, he may just be in over his head. if that is the case, GET OUT OF THE WAY!!

As for where I will be, I will be a Texans fan because this is where I live. Will i be a happy one? maybe not, but I don't just jump from team to team with the frequency of a cheap ham radio. I will always be a Texans fan but there is only so many times Bob can crap in my hand and call it a sundae.

As i have posted before, our true hope is that Cal is more of a winner than Bob and is willing to spend a little money to get to where we need to be. There is no excuse for brining back Kubiak again. None whatsoever outside of how expensive a proven winner would be. Oh, believe me, I am resigned to suckitude for probably 2 or 3 more years. Bob isn't going to spend what it takes to bring in proven winners at coaching. If Harbaugh, an unproven college coach with no NFL HC experience, demands upwards of $7million to get an NFL job how much do you think a Cowher or Gruden will command.

more than Uncle B would be willing to spend that is for sure. even when Kubiak is ultimately fired for being a failure, I am sure we will peruse the bargain bin for our next Head Coach just like we did when Kubiak was hired and just like we do in Free Agency.

This franchise is a joke but its my joke. i don't quit but i am not going to be silent or happy about it.

Second Honeymoon
01-19-2011, 06:06 PM
and we put our money where our mouth was when we gave up our PSLs before last season.

money well not spent

Double Barrel
01-19-2011, 06:13 PM
I have no doubt that on a better team, Schaub could be in the playoffs. Who knows how well he'd perform, simply because we have no reference at this point. But he's good enough to be there, without a doubt in my mind.

Unfortunately - for him and from certain perspectives, us, too - he's not on a better team and he's wasting a good chunk of his career (like AJ) being stuck on the Texans. 'eh, it is what it is, and he's well compensated for it, so I can't say that I feel sorry for him. (I do feel sorry for Texans fans, though. We just can't catch a break.)

infantrycak
01-19-2011, 07:27 PM
Rewatching the Baltimore game. Just wanted to reiterate a Ron Jaworski comment since the issue has come up so much around here. He said Schaub audibles on about 50% of plays.

Also multiple comments by both Jaws and Gruden about Schaub throwing lasers, ropes or threading the needle, hitting the only spot available and throwing his receivers open.

drs23
01-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Rewatching the Baltimore game. Just wanted to reiterate a Ron Jaworski comment since the issue has come up so much around here. He said Schaub audibles on about 50% of plays.

Also multiple comments by both Jaws and Gruden about Schaub throwing lasers, ropes or threading the needle, hitting the only spot available and throwing his receivers open.

There's no way a reputable broadcaster would spew such. Schaub has such a noodle arm I'm suprised his throws even hit the ground. :fishing:

Lucky
01-19-2011, 10:22 PM
Rewatching the Baltimore game. Just wanted to reiterate a Ron Jaworski comment since the issue has come up so much around here. He said Schaub audibles on about 50% of plays.

That's contradictory to some of what Kubiak & Schaub have said themselves. I don't know whom to believe or if it is even important.

Regarding Schaub throwing "lasers", that seems like a poor adjective to describe his passes. Schaub was very accurate in the 2nd half, but both of his TD passes to AJ were floaters. Looks the same on the scoreboard, but not to the naked eye.

JB
01-19-2011, 11:03 PM
That's contradictory to some of what Kubiak & Schaub have said themselves. I don't know whom to believe or if it is even important.

Regarding Schaub throwing "lasers", that seems like a poor adjective to describe his passes. Schaub was very accurate in the 2nd half, but both of his TD passes to AJ were floaters. Looks the same on the scoreboard, but not to the naked eye.

Keep in mind that both of those are QB lovers... especially when they are doing well.

Trail.Blazr
01-20-2011, 07:31 AM
I would like to see Schaub play with an average to good defense though



last year?

And last year, Schaub put up an awesome year, capped by pro-bowl MVP.:slap:

Look, Schaub did great before Kubiak. As a back up in Atlanta, he had success getting his NFL feet wet. Before then, he was all-ACC in Virginia.

You DONT get all-acc or NFL ProBowl MVP by being average.

Is he Peyton Manning? no, but on last check, Opie didn't get his team to the superbowl... yet again.

Where would he be without Kubiak? Who knows.. ATL still?

Fact is, Schaub is NOT the achilles of Houston. To be looking at QB play for the answer to what is holding this franchise from post season play/success, is just absurd.

BTW.. If you think Tebow owned the Texans(just as many QB's), I would love to see what Schaub would do against a team that has as many holes in the secondary as us, AND no pass rush.

BigBull17
01-20-2011, 07:55 AM
Did you see todays game

Roethlisberger > Schaub

Yeah, Rapistburger has freakin stones man. I think he is one of the best clutch QB's around right now.

Double Barrel
01-20-2011, 11:05 AM
That's contradictory to some of what Kubiak & Schaub have said themselves. I don't know whom to believe or if it is even important.

Regarding Schaub throwing "lasers", that seems like a poor adjective to describe his passes. Schaub was very accurate in the 2nd half, but both of his TD passes to AJ were floaters. Looks the same on the scoreboard, but not to the naked eye.

I've heard the same thing from Schaub himself on his Monday morning shows.

I suppose there could be discrepancy in what we refer to as "audibles", but Schaub said that he's never given much latitude to change things at the LOS unless it's a two minute drill.

We definitely don't see him completely changing sets and formations like you do with Manning or Brady. I think, if anything, Schaub's audibles are simple, checking down and perhaps going from pass to run or visa-versa. If that's the case, then maybe this is where Jaws was coming from?

Mr teX
01-20-2011, 01:33 PM
That's contradictory to some of what Kubiak & Schaub have said themselves. I don't know whom to believe or if it is even important.

Regarding Schaub throwing "lasers", that seems like a poor adjective to describe his passes. Schaub was very accurate in the 2nd half, but both of his TD passes to AJ were floaters. Looks the same on the scoreboard, but not to the naked eye.

Schaub's got pretty good arm strength, the problem with him is that he's always throwing off his back foot b/c Kubiak / his o-line always have him throwing on the run with bootlegs or break downs in protection....... which he obviously doesn't have the arm strength for.

Any time he can step into his throws without fear of getting lit up, he can hum it to the WR pretty good.

infantrycak
01-20-2011, 04:09 PM
That's contradictory to some of what Kubiak & Schaub have said themselves. I don't know whom to believe or if it is even important.

I suppose there could be discrepancy in what we refer to as "audibles", but Schaub said that he's never given much latitude to change things at the LOS unless it's a two minute drill.

I have heard those comments as well but I am now wondering if there is a quantity v. quality ambiguity. Kubiak or Schaub says we don't audible much and the first thing you think of is often but they may mean we don't alter the play call much as in significantly like Peyton does. We may have lots of simple audibles that just move the TE to the other side.

Regarding Schaub throwing "lasers", that seems like a poor adjective to describe his passes. Schaub was very accurate in the 2nd half, but both of his TD passes to AJ were floaters. Looks the same on the scoreboard, but not to the naked eye.

First off I certainly wouldn't rank Schaub as one of the stronger armed QB's in the league. Having said that I think comments around here have been overblown. He can chuck the ball 60 yards down the field. Anyone who can do that can throw a 20 yard "laser" and watching that Baltimore was a very good example where he was putting real zip on balls into closing windows between multiple defenders.

As for the AJ passes, at least the last one it appeared to me Schaub was intentionally putting touch on it to get it over the in front defenders and put the ball up where only AJ could get it.

Thorn
01-20-2011, 05:53 PM
I really don't know why anyone complains about Schaub. There are at least 20 other teams in the NFL that don't have as good a starting QB as we do. If you're going to worry about our QB situation, worry about RunOutOfBoundSki and whatever leftover QB they find in free agency next year.

thunderkyss
01-20-2011, 06:57 PM
I really don't know why anyone complains about Schaub. There are at least 20 other teams in the NFL that don't have as good a starting QB as we do. If you're going to worry about our QB situation, worry about RunOutOfBoundSki and whatever leftover QB they find in free agency next year.

& 20 other players on our roster who could deserve a little more scrutiny.

Rey
01-20-2011, 07:05 PM
I think when Schaub is talking about audibles he's talking about pre-dertimined audibles that they may have going into any given game.

Like against certain teams if they get a certain look from the defense or if they have a certain player in a mis-match that may be one of his automatic audibles.

That and switching the direction a play is going and getting them out of bad plays when they see a look from the defense they don't like.

That's not giving him the latitude to get out there and completely change what they are doing, but I believe that is what they mean when they are talking about audibles.

dream_team
01-22-2011, 11:00 AM
In regards to all the talk about Schaub isn't good because he can't get the Texans in the playoffs or win big games.

Mark Sanchez has been in the playoffs the two seasons he's be in the league, and he currently has a tie for the record of the most road playoff wins by any QB in league history! He can be the sole record holder if the Jets beat the Steelers this weekend.

Does this make Sanchez better than Schaub? Does this make him one of the greatest playoff-road QBs ever?

Lets be serious... the Jets win because of that defense!

mancunian
01-29-2011, 09:11 AM
Where would Kubiak be without Matt Schaub?

on the dole

mancunian
01-29-2011, 09:15 AM
Schaub's QB rating up to 9 per http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player?stat=passing&sort=quarterbackRating&year=2010&seasontype=2

Here's another interesting http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5972554ranking starting NFL QBs



Thoughts?

spot on. Get a decent defence, offence has been pretty decent the last two years....and I know its a cliche but defence wins championships