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ThruThick&Thin
12-29-2010, 04:59 PM
I just read Bud's interview and I noticed something he said about Wade being able to coach 4-3 as opposed to 3-4.

He said something like, "you play the defense that suits your personnel best." He went on to say something about "that's how I got into 3-4. We had more good linebackers than we did good linemen"

Houston Texans LB(s):
Brian Cushing
DeMeco Ryans
Zak Diles
Kevin Bentley
Darryl Sharpton
And a Handful of others

Houston Texans DL:
Mario
Damione Lewis (has experience in 3-4?)
Antonio (has exp in 3-4 from ARI, where they ran an exotic disguising D)
Earl (rookie is trying his damndest!)
Shaun Cody (yawn... fat a$$)
Amobi Okoye (10 dollars short and a week late)


I have been thinking about a swap to 3-4 for our team for about the past 3 weeks. After all, we are the top 3 worst defenses in the league. We have nowhere to go but up. Doesn't it seem like we could comfortably do this? Sure we don't "generate pressure" in our current scheme. Could you imagine having one of our tough guy LB's coming free every play? :O

DonnyMost
12-29-2010, 05:01 PM
Might as well add Bernard Pollard to your list of linebackers.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-29-2010, 05:06 PM
I don't think a transition to a 3-4 defense with our current personel would be difficult at all. In fact, we are probably better equipped to run it.

dsorc
12-29-2010, 05:26 PM
We have the personnel to run either scheme IMO. However, you're missing some key players on your DL list: Barwin, Anderson, Bulman, and Jamison. There are some questions that come up with switching namely
1. Is Mario an OLB or DE in that scheme. He has the measurable of a 3-4 DE but currentlt plays a role equivalent to 3-4 OLB
2. Who plays NT? Then again we're lacking a NT for both schemes
3. Are we neutralizing our best DL in Mario and Smith with the move?
4. Are our LBs undersized

I think 1 and 2 get the most attention but 3 and 4 are probably more important. Mario and Antonio have done a great job but we lack pressure from the middle. As 3-4 DE's their impact might be more masked. Adibi, Diles, and Sharpton would need to bulk up in a 3-4 for sure.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-29-2010, 05:30 PM
Switching to a 3-4 would force this team to do something they should have a long time ago, draft a big fatass to anchor the interior of our defensive line.

MojoX
12-29-2010, 05:40 PM
All this team is missing is a solid NT and a coverage safety. With Barwin and Cushing, they were going mix-in some 3-4 anyways. Injury ruined that plan.

Williams and Smith are already 3-4 type ends. Both have the power to play the positions. I've tended to see Williams as a Bruce Smith type anyway. They would be limited to only tying up blockers, depending on the 3-4 scheme they run.

If the team wasn't picking so high, I would advocate trying to sign Haloti Ngata even with the franchise tag. Alternatively, I think it would be a coup to lure Richard Seymour to the team.

m5kwatts
12-29-2010, 05:40 PM
The quickest path to this team having a good defense is through the familiar 4-3. Both the linebacker and defensive line units would need to be overhauled for a 3-4 switch.

I don't want our best pass rusher (Mario) 2-gapping as a 5-technique.

I don't want Demeco and Cushing taking on guards as inside linebackers. And don't even think about putting Cushing on the edge because he has no pass rush moves.

Amobi has no place in a 3-4 defensive line unit and he's had a pretty solid comeback year this year, IMO. Cody and Amobi have been very solid vs. the run if you didn't notice. The Texans are 6th in the league vs. the rush. This defense falls apart when the 2nd unit defensive line comes on the field both vs. the pass and vs. the run (go put on the tape, you'll see it).

My point is, if this team wants to be in the business of playing in a Super Bowl next year, a 4-3 base defense is the quickest way to get there. If this team can get an experienced 4-3 guy whose recently been successful in here they could be set given the way the offense plays.

MojoX
12-29-2010, 05:44 PM
The quickest path to this team having a good defense is through the familiar 4-3. Both the linebacker and defensive line units would need to be overhauled for a 3-4 switch.

I don't want our best pass rusher (Mario) 2-gapping as a 5-technique.

I don't want Demeco and Cushing taking on guards as inside linebackers.

Amobi has no place in a 3-4 defensive line unit and he's had a pretty solid comeback year this year, IMO. Cody and Amobi have been very solid vs. the run if you didn't notice. The Texans are 6th in the league vs. the rush. This defense falls apart when the 2nd unit defensive line comes on the field both vs. the pass and vs. the run (go put on the tape, you'll see it).

My point is, if this team wants to be in the business of playing in a Super Bowl next year, a 4-3 base defense is the quickest way to get there. If this team can get an experienced 4-3 guy whose recently been successful in here they could be set given the way the offense plays.

3-4 defenses come in 2- gap and 1-gap flavors. I think Wade Phillips is a one-gap guy.

m5kwatts
12-29-2010, 05:48 PM
3-4 defenses come in 2- gap and 1-gap flavors. I think Wade Phillips is a one-gap guy.

Did you see the Cowboys play defense this year? They were one of the worst in the league. And that was Wade calling the defense. I want a 4-3 defensive coordinator who has recently had success. Not only is the team not fit to run a 3-4 now or in the near future, Wade Phillips shouldn't be the guy to lead the charge.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-29-2010, 05:49 PM
Cushings best asset is his ability to blitz. He would fit in nicely as a 3-4 OLB.

m5kwatts
12-29-2010, 05:55 PM
Cushings best asset is his ability to blitz. He would fit in nicely as a 3-4 OLB.

Blitzing and pass rushing are two completely different animals. Dropping into coverage most of the game and occasionally blitzing all different gaps over the course of the game is WAY different than playing 3-4 OLB and having to beat a 300 pound offensive tackle for 50-60 snaps. Cushing's never done that at the NFL level and from watching him play, he does not possess many pass rush moves, if any at all. He's a natural 4-3 run and hit linebacker.

MojoX
12-29-2010, 06:08 PM
Did you see the Cowboys play defense this year? They were one of the worst in the league. And that was Wade calling the defense. I want a 4-3 defensive coordinator who has recently had success. Not only is the team not fit to run a 3-4 now or in the near future, Wade Phillips shouldn't be the guy to lead the charge.

I saw it this year. I saw it last year, the year before that, and the year before that, too. Saw the up years and the down year. Also seen the statistical outcomes of his defensive performances past Buffalo and back to Denver. Google is good for that.

1. Didn't argue for Phillips. Just pointing something out based on the latest rumor getting yalls panties in a bunch.
2. Completely disagree on whether this team can go 3-4.
3. Everybody wants something.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
12-29-2010, 06:08 PM
Blitzing and pass rushing are two completely different animals. Dropping into coverage most of the game and occasionally blitzing all different gaps over the course of the game is WAY different than playing 3-4 OLB and having to beat a 300 pound offensive tackle for 50-60 snaps. Cushing's never done that at the NFL level and from watching him play, he does not possess many pass rush moves, if any at all. He's a natural 4-3 run and hit linebacker.


Blitzing is what 3-4 outside 'backers do.

Wolf6151
12-29-2010, 06:15 PM
Did you see the Cowboys play defense this year? They were one of the worst in the league. And that was Wade calling the defense. I want a 4-3 defensive coordinator who has recently had success. Not only is the team not fit to run a 3-4 now or in the near future, Wade Phillips shouldn't be the guy to lead the charge.


We might be in the minority but I agree with you and don't want Phillips on the Texans coaching squad in any form. 4-3 vs. 3-4 doesn't really matter if we don't have the coaches and personnel to run either defense successfully. A switch to a 3-4 doesn't make us a better defense and although I think we could make the switch in one off season, it doesn't naturally make us a better defense. We could suck just as bad as a 3-4 unit.

ThruThick&Thin
12-29-2010, 06:15 PM
All ya need is a great DC with supporting assistants! Cough... LeBeau/Rivera.... :fans:

Dishman
12-29-2010, 06:26 PM
Did you see the Cowboys play defense this year? They were one of the worst in the league. And that was Wade calling the defense. I want a 4-3 defensive coordinator who has recently had success. Not only is the team not fit to run a 3-4 now or in the near future, Wade Phillips shouldn't be the guy to lead the charge.

Come now.

Bum Phillips has spoken. Not only is GK the man to lead this team to glory, but none other than Bum himself said his son was more than qualified to take over DC duties with a 3-4 scheme.

MojoX
12-29-2010, 06:34 PM
Come now.

Bum Phillips has spoken. Not only is GK the man to lead this team to glory, but none other than Bum himself said his son was more than qualified to take over DC duties with any scheme.

Fixed it for ya. Bum said scheme don't matter. Good coach is good coach, he say.

Norg
12-29-2010, 06:37 PM
well the top D's all run a 3-4 so yeah just sayin

Jackie Chiles
12-29-2010, 06:44 PM
Cushings best asset is his ability to blitz. He would fit in nicely as a 3-4 OLB.

Cushing is a good blitzer for a 4-3 OLB but he isn't a true pass rusher. I know he played a hybrid rusher position some in college but if we move to a 3-4 I would bet anything that Cushing is in the middle with Meco. Add Barwin as one outside guy and thats 3 pretty good LBs. Cushing can still blitz to his hearts content from the middle btw.

Now that I think about it Mark Anderson wouldn't be a terrible experiment at the other OLB spot. Assuming they don't draft one early or sign someone in FA.

Texan_Bill
12-29-2010, 06:47 PM
I don't think a transition to a 3-4 defense with our current personel would be difficult at all. In fact, we are probably better equipped to run it.

Totally agree and have said as much in another thread. We need a big fat guy for a NT and a new secondary (which would be the case no matter what defense we run). Other than that, there are pieces in place.

Jackie Chiles
12-29-2010, 06:54 PM
I don't want Demeco and Cushing taking on guards as inside linebackers.

This is pretty much what they both have been doing. Pretty well actually. Cushing was built to take on guards. If anything they would have less traffic with a big fat NT in front.

dalemurphy
12-29-2010, 06:59 PM
Did you see the Cowboys play defense this year? They were one of the worst in the league. And that was Wade calling the defense. I want a 4-3 defensive coordinator who has recently had success. Not only is the team not fit to run a 3-4 now or in the near future, Wade Phillips shouldn't be the guy to lead the charge.

Where are you going to find a defensive coordinator who had a successful 2010 season and is available and interested in a horizontal move to Houston?

Any of the DCs that had great years will either remain on their team or will find a head coaching gig somewhere.

Historyhorn
12-29-2010, 08:26 PM
No way the Texans transition to the 3-4 right now.

1) We have not big NT to play the middle and require a C/G double team.

2) There is no way in hell this team takes one of the best pass rushers in the league and turns him into a 5 tech DE. That would just be asininely stupid (for this franchise....maybe not so much of a stretch).

3) Both Demeco and Cushing would have to play ILB in the 3-4 scheme & generally would get drilled by the big OGs moving to the second level. Neither are big enough or fit a 3-4 scheme. Cushing was drafted to play the 4-3 under like they ran at USC and we run now. He excels in that position. We could perhaps trade him to Seattle for some picks if we are really looking at a 3-4.

4) Antonio Smith becomes a liability in the 3-4. He is too small to play the DE in a 3-4. We brought him to play DE on run downs and DT on obvious pass downs (hoping he could hold his own against the run in those specific situations).

5) We have not true OLB that are capable of being a force in rushing the passer as well as dropping into coverage as needed. They would have to be drafted or picked up in Free Agency (little note....teams don't give up great pass rushers).

6) A move to the 3-4 would mean we need to address personnel on the DT and LB level and leave us still lacking in the defensive secondary. It would simply mean we would open more personnel holes that have to be filled on top of the ones we already have.

Who knows....with the way this franchise is run, a move to a 3-4 would seem like a big possibility. If we do that, then be prepared to go into the wilderness for 3-4 years minimum before "getting there" as an elite defense. We are closer as a 4-3 than as a 3-4.

Go Texans

TimeKiller
12-29-2010, 08:55 PM
There are pros and cons either way. If Phillips is brought in I'd hope they go 3/4. Of course it would mean spending an offseason retooling the defense but...well...that has to happen either way. They need an answer at DT, CB and FS positions whichever way you want to look at it. Another LBer wouldn't hurt either. Anyway....back to the shadows...

dsorc
12-29-2010, 10:18 PM
No way the Texans transition to the 3-4 right now.

1) We have not big NT to play the middle and require a C/G double team.
We need a NT either way. Also, if it is Wade Phillips at least his version of the 3-4 doesn't need a huge NT see Jay Ratliff who is 6'4" 303 lbs

2) There is no way in hell this team takes one of the best pass rushers in the league and turns him into a 5 tech DE. That would just be asininely stupid (for this franchise....maybe not so much of a stretch).
See Bruce Smith. A more recent example is Aaron Smith who has put up good sack numbers in Pittsburgh. Admittedly this is a concern and Mario's stats would decline.

3) Both Demeco and Cushing would have to play ILB in the 3-4 scheme & generally would get drilled by the big OGs moving to the second level. Neither are big enough or fit a 3-4 scheme. Cushing was drafted to play the 4-3 under like they ran at USC and we run now. He excels in that position. We could perhaps trade him to Seattle for some picks if we are really looking at a 3-4.
Cushing has prototypical size for a 3-4 LB at 6'3" 260lbs and Demeco might be only a tad short at 6'1" 250lbs. Demeco already deals with the OGs as does Cushing to a certain extent. Neither of them is a bad fit in any scheme though Cushing does better playing downhill versus sideline to sideline.

4) Antonio Smith becomes a liability in the 3-4. He is too small to play the DE in a 3-4. We brought him to play DE on run downs and DT on obvious pass downs (hoping he could hold his own against the run in those specific situations).
Antonio Smith got his big paycheck based on his play in the Arizona 3-4/4-3 hybrid. He'd be one of the few players on our team with experience in a 3-4.

5) We have not true OLB that are capable of being a force in rushing the passer as well as dropping into coverage as needed. They would have to be drafted or picked up in Free Agency (little note....teams don't give up great pass rushers).
Barwin's role has essentially been that of a rush LB when we line up in our nickle 3-3-5. I do think we would draft a rush LB but this draft has a bunch of good ones

6) A move to the 3-4 would mean we need to address personnel on the DT and LB level and leave us still lacking in the defensive secondary. It would simply mean we would open more personnel holes that have to be filled on top of the ones we already have.
We already need to address NT and LB as Cody and Diles should not be starting. Also given the results of our defense, we need to address quite a bit no matter what scheme we run.

Who knows....with the way this franchise is run, a move to a 3-4 would seem like a big possibility. If we do that, then be prepared to go into the wilderness for 3-4 years minimum before "getting there" as an elite defense. We are closer as a 4-3 than as a 3-4.
This is hard to predict. Some teams can make the switch quickly while other take longer. Then again, we can't get much worse than rock bottom so if we want to switch this is a good time.

Go Texans

Responses in blue

painekiller
12-30-2010, 03:10 AM
Cushing is a good blitzer for a 4-3 OLB but he isn't a true pass rusher. I know he played a hybrid rusher position some in college but if we move to a 3-4 I would bet anything that Cushing is in the middle with Meco. Add Barwin as one outside guy and thats 3 pretty good LBs. Cushing can still blitz to his hearts content from the middle btw.

Now that I think about it Mark Anderson wouldn't be a terrible experiment at the other OLB spot. Assuming they don't draft one early or sign someone in FA.

IMO the LBs in a 3-4 would be Cushing and Barwin on the outside and Ryans and Sharpton in the middle.

Before you say that Sharpton is too small remember Sam Mills was only 5-9 229 and he was one of the Best 3-4 MLBs to ever play the game.

As for the DL, I want to run a one gap system like Wade Phillips has run for year, with that Mario and Smith will be the DEs. Image having Mario and Barwin on the same side coming for the QB.

The NT can be Damione Lewis and a draft pick or two. We could draft one or two of the following Jerrell Powe, NT, Ole Miss, Sione Fua, NT, Stanford, Kendrick Ellis, NT, Hampton or Phil Taylor, NT, Baylor.

As for FA NTs that might be signed John Henderson, DT, Raiders ; Ronald Fields, NT Denver; Ron Edwards, NT KC(Klein Forest/ A&M grad); Shaun Smith, NT, KC; Paul Soliai, NT Dolphins, Haloti Ngata DE/NT Ravens (he will be Franchised and cost two 1st round picks); Chris Hoke, NT Steelers; Remi Ayodele, DT Saints; Bryan Robinson, NT, Arizona; Gabe Watson, NT, Arizono; Alan Branch, DE/NT, Arizona; Aubrayo Franklin, NT, 49ers; Brandon Mebane, DT, Seattle.

As you can see the NT position can be addressed. I'm not saying that the guys above are elite types (Ngata excluded) but they can be solid NTs on a team that is transitioning to the 3-4.

The current team and next years team has to worry about the play of the secondary, was it coaching or talent evaluation that caused the problem.

Old School
12-30-2010, 04:43 AM
It's funny because 5 years ago everyone wanted to kill the 3-4 system we had. People freaking hated it!!!! Now 5 years later......
It doesn't matter what scheme we run. Until we get a coach than can teach either one worth a damn and enough talent to execute the plan, we are doomed to repeat this cycle of crap.
Talent evaluation and coaching, that is the system that needs to be put in place.

BattleRedToro
12-30-2010, 08:29 AM
Cushing was drafted to play the 4-3 under like they ran at USC and we run now.

The Texans do not run a 4-3 Under like Pete Carroll did at USC. I wish they did, but they do not. They might occasionally shift into a 4-3 Under alignment but they do not run it the way Pete Carroll did, where he had an entire system run out of that alignment.

Dishman
12-30-2010, 08:47 AM
Fixed it for ya. Bum said scheme don't matter. Good coach is good coach, he say.

Thank you for the correction. So, Wade is a good coach along with GK. Can we start our dynasty today?!?

infantrycak
12-30-2010, 09:33 AM
Wow perceptions on weight are out of whack.

Chargers
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 239 and 240 lbs

Pittsburgh
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 243 and 234 lbs

Miami
NT 355 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

Jets
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 242 and 250 lbs

Ravens
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

That is your top five 3-4 D's right now. Only one has a "big fat ass" NT. None have LB's bigger than DeMeco inside. DeMeco and Sharpton would not be undersized at all at ILB.

DonnyMost
12-30-2010, 09:46 AM
Wow perceptions on weight are out of whack.

Chargers
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 239 and 240 lbs

Pittsburgh
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 243 and 234 lbs

Miami
NT 355 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

Jets
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 242 and 250 lbs

Ravens
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

That is your top five 3-4 D's right now. Only one has a "big fat ass" NT. None have LB's bigger than DeMeco inside. DeMeco and Sharpton would not be undersized at all at ILB.

We have one of the smaller/younger DLs in the league, that much we do know.

Cody and Okoye are 310 or so and Mitchell and Lewis are barely 300...

Weight/size issues aside, they're just not that good.

Could we run the 3-4? I think so. But the interior would be the obvious weak point.

The best part of the 3-4 is that I trust our linebacking core a hell of a lot more than our linemen at this point... it would be one hell of an experiment rotating Barwin and Mario onto an OLB spot though... that would probably give offensive coordinators fits trying to scheme against that.

BattleRedToro
12-30-2010, 10:15 AM
We have one of the smaller/younger DLs in the league, that much we do know.

Cody and Okoye are 310 or so and Mitchell and Lewis are barely 300...

Weight/size issues aside, they're just not that good.

Could we run the 3-4? I think so. But the interior would be the obvious weak point.

The best part of the 3-4 is that I trust our linebacking core a hell of a lot more than our linemen at this point... it would be one hell of an experiment rotating Barwin and Mario onto an OLB spot though... that would probably give offensive coordinators fits trying to scheme against that.

If the Texans were to run a 1-gap 3-4 defense a la Wade Phillips, I would expect Mario Williams would be a DE. Barwin and possibly Anderson or Cushing would be OLB's. If Anderson made it as an OLB then Cushing would be an ILB.

steelbtexan
12-30-2010, 10:27 AM
As PK said NT should be addressed in FA and the draft. He showed who's available in FA it's a good list.

The draft is deep at NT this yr. A good one can be found in the 2/3 rd. I like what I've read about Ellis. He seems like a good NT prospect that should be available in the 3rd rd.

Ole Miss Texan
12-30-2010, 10:27 AM
If the Texans were to run a 1-gap 3-4 defense a la Wade Phillips, I would expect Mario Williams would be a DE. Barwin and possibly Anderson or Cushing would be OLB's. If Anderson made it as an OLB then Cushing would be an ILB.

Jay Ratliff is 6'4 303lbs per Cowboys and NFL websites. I like Mario as a 3-4 DE much better than him as an OLB. Barwin would be excellent in my opinion at OLB assuming he comes back from injury. I remember reading that Bilichik really liked Barwin during the draft to fit the OLB role for the Pats.

Ole Miss Texan
12-30-2010, 10:28 AM
As PK said NT should be addressed in FA and the draft. He showed who's available in FA it's a good list.

The draft is deep at NT this yr. A good one can be found in the 2/3 rd. I like what I've read about Ellis. He seems like a good NT prospect that should be available in the 3rd rd.

NT Jerrelle Powe Ole Miss in the 2nd? 1st round go Von Miller for OLB or a DB like Prince Amukarar or the Harris kid out of Miami? Heck, in with the right scenario we might actually have a shot at Patrick Peterson, lol.

TheCD
12-30-2010, 10:29 AM
If the Texans were to run a 1-gap 3-4 defense a la Wade Phillips, I would expect Mario Williams would be a DE. Barwin and possibly Anderson or Cushing would be OLB's. If Anderson made it as an OLB then Cushing would be an ILB.

I am very familiar with 4/3 defenses but not so much with 3/4. In the event that we did switch and were unable to acquire a true NT in the offseason, what would the chances be on this allignment working out?

Okoye - Smith - Williams
Barwin - Cushing - Ryans - Anderson


It would obviously not be one of the stronger allignments, but if we went with the 1-gap system a la Wade Phillips, I think Mario and Antonio could be successful with Okoye being the garbage we have to keep around until we find something better.

steelbtexan
12-30-2010, 10:37 AM
NT Jerrelle Powe Ole Miss in the 2nd? 1st round go Von Miller for OLB or a DB like Prince Amukarar or the Harris kid out of Miami? Heck, in with the right scenario we might actually have a shot at Patrick Peterson, lol.

Man this defense is already looking better.

A LB corps of Barwin Ryans Cushing Miller and Sharpton gives you depth and talent. Something the Texans have never had.

I mean look at the LB's right now Diles and Benltley are starters. They're nothing more than ST guys IMHO.

IDEXAN
12-30-2010, 10:39 AM
DeMeco would be fine playing inside backer in the 3-4, afterall he's about the same size as former Texan Jamie Sharper who played their in the Capers 3-4 and he was outstanding while in Houston. My own opinion is that while Cushing could play in the 3-4, he's a pure 4-3 SAM and much like Mario whos most valuable skills would be wasted as a 3-4 DE, so would Cushings as a 3-4 ILB, and he's really not up to playing the OLB spot in the 3-4.
On the other hand coming out of college most felt that Barwin was a 3-4 OLB, so he would find his "natural postion" in a Wade Phillips defense.

ArlingtonTexan
12-30-2010, 10:54 AM
It's funny because 5 years ago everyone wanted to kill the 3-4 system we had. People freaking hated it!!!! Now 5 years later......
It doesn't matter what scheme we run. Until we get a coach than can teach either one worth a damn and enough talent to execute the plan, we are doomed to repeat this cycle of crap.
Talent evaluation and coaching, that is the system that needs to be put in place.

This is the true answer, but it is much more fun talking about scheme and playcalling than teaching and execution.

Mr. White
12-30-2010, 11:06 AM
I seem to remember the decision was already made to run a 4-3 before Kubiak was even hired.

Does anyone else remember this or am I just crazy?

Rey
12-30-2010, 11:15 AM
Wow perceptions on weight are out of whack.

Chargers
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 239 and 240 lbs

Pittsburgh
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 243 and 234 lbs

Miami
NT 355 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

Jets
NT 325 lbs
ILBs 242 and 250 lbs

Ravens
NT 320 lbs
ILBs 250 and 250 lbs

That is your top five 3-4 D's right now. Only one has a "big fat ass" NT. None have LB's bigger than DeMeco inside. DeMeco and Sharpton would not be undersized at all at ILB.


Exactly, and overall our DT's aren't undersized for a 4-3. You don't typically see 320+ lb DT's that get a lot of snaps in a 4-3...

DT's in a 4-3 have to be a bit more mobile than NT's in 3-4's....

Rey
12-30-2010, 11:16 AM
If the Texans were to run a 1-gap 3-4 defense a la Wade Phillips, I would expect Mario Williams would be a DE. Barwin and possibly Anderson or Cushing would be OLB's. If Anderson made it as an OLB then Cushing would be an ILB.


I think Cushing would be an OLB regardless and the other guys would compete for the opposite OLB spot...

Rey
12-30-2010, 11:21 AM
I am very familiar with 4/3 defenses but not so much with 3/4. In the event that we did switch and were unable to acquire a true NT in the offseason, what would the chances be on this allignment working out?

Okoye - Smith - Williams
Barwin - Cushing - Ryans - Anderson


It would obviously not be one of the stronger allignments, but if we went with the 1-gap system a la Wade Phillips, I think Mario and Antonio could be successful with Okoye being the garbage we have to keep around until we find something better.

This isn't a popular opinion, but I think Mario would be a dominant NT in a 3-4.

That is where I'd play him at....I think he has the strength to get it done and he has more than enough mobility to come of and make tackles, and I'd expect him to be an above average pass rusher from that spot...I think he could definitely push the pocket and not allow QB's much room to step up...

But really, I'd move him around a lot...He'd play all the line positions and Rush OLB in certain situations...

I'd play Okoye and Smith as the outside DT's until we found guys that were better...


I don't think the big question is whether or not Mario can play D-line in a 3-4....I think the bigger question is about his desire to do so...

The1ApplePie
12-30-2010, 11:22 AM
The Texans do not run a 4-3 Under like Pete Carroll did at USC. I wish they did, but they do not. They might occasionally shift into a 4-3 Under alignment but they do not run it the way Pete Carroll did, where he had an entire system run out of that alignment.

Not to mention that the "Elephant" backer was Matthews, not Cush.

At USC, Cush was the pass coverage specialist of the big 3, with Clay as the rusher and Rey Rey as the enforcer.

IDEXAN
12-30-2010, 12:00 PM
Not to mention that the "Elephant" backer was Matthews, not Cush.

At USC, Cush was the pass coverage specialist of the big 3, with Clay as the rusher and Rey Rey as the enforcer.
Both have played the "elephant" position in college, in Cushings case it was in his first couple years at USC. But I think Cushing is out of his element in pass-coverage - the closer to the los the better for Cushing. That's his strength, his forte.
BTW, remember that 3-4 & 4-3 defenses refer to the LB/DLine alignment, not necessarily the gap responsiblilty. For example, most 3-4 noses have a 2-gap responsibility, but not all.

Jrod7451
12-30-2010, 12:07 PM
A 3-4 defense would not be a good change. We have been drafting defensive players for about 5 years for a 4-3 defense. If we where to change this now, we would have to start rebuilding and we all know that we wouldn't want that. In a 3-4 defense, I think that it makes the corners have to cover more while linebackers are blitzing to make up for the lost lineman who should have been blitzing. Follow the mock drafts and if you see that the texans are probably going to draft a DT, then we are staying with a 4-3 which is a good defense you have the proper tools.

J_R
12-30-2010, 12:16 PM
A 3-4 defense would not be a good change. We have been drafting defensive players for about 5 years for a 4-3 defense. If we where to change this now, we would have to start rebuilding and we all know that we wouldn't want that. In a 3-4 defense, I think that it makes the corners have to cover more while linebackers are blitzing to make up for the lost lineman who should have been blitzing. Follow the mock drafts and if you see that the texans are probably going to draft a DT, then we are staying with a 4-3 which is a good defense you have the proper tools.


We have been drafting defensive players for 5 years for a 4-3 and have nothing to show for it except one of the worst defenses in NFL history. Way to go Rick Smith(and/or Gary Kubiak).

Rebuild? Again, you are one of the worst defenses that has taken the field. Are you really going to get worse by switching? Can you get worse? I dont think so. You can only go up.

The1ApplePie
12-30-2010, 12:16 PM
I worry that DeMeco may suffer the same fate as Vilma did when the Jets switched. Beastly 4-3 MLB that was horrible in the 3-4. He has certainly gotten beaten up thanks to the bums at DT in front of him the last few years.

In the end, its style, not size, that determines who is good in what system.

mussop
12-30-2010, 12:51 PM
No way the Texans transition to the 3-4 right now.

1) We have not big NT to play the middle and require a C/G double team.

2) There is no way in hell this team takes one of the best pass rushers in the league and turns him into a 5 tech DE. That would just be asininely stupid (for this franchise....maybe not so much of a stretch).

3) Both Demeco and Cushing would have to play ILB in the 3-4 scheme & generally would get drilled by the big OGs moving to the second level. Neither are big enough or fit a 3-4 scheme. Cushing was drafted to play the 4-3 under like they ran at USC and we run now. He excels in that position. We could perhaps trade him to Seattle for some picks if we are really looking at a 3-4.

4) Antonio Smith becomes a liability in the 3-4. He is too small to play the DE in a 3-4. We brought him to play DE on run downs and DT on obvious pass downs (hoping he could hold his own against the run in those specific situations).

5) We have not true OLB that are capable of being a force in rushing the passer as well as dropping into coverage as needed. They would have to be drafted or picked up in Free Agency (little note....teams don't give up great pass rushers).

6) A move to the 3-4 would mean we need to address personnel on the DT and LB level and leave us still lacking in the defensive secondary. It would simply mean we would open more personnel holes that have to be filled on top of the ones we already have.

Who knows....with the way this franchise is run, a move to a 3-4 would seem like a big possibility. If we do that, then be prepared to go into the wilderness for 3-4 years minimum before "getting there" as an elite defense. We are closer as a 4-3 than as a 3-4.

Go Texans

This couldn't be more wrong!

Rey
12-30-2010, 05:50 PM
I worry that DeMeco may suffer the same fate as Vilma did when the Jets switched. Beastly 4-3 MLB that was horrible in the 3-4. He has certainly gotten beaten up thanks to the bums at DT in front of him the last few years.

In the end, its style, not size, that determines who is good in what system.

Don't the Saints run a 3-4???

When Jonathan Vilma was traded by the New York Jets to the New Orleans Saints in 2008, the common perception was that he didn't fit in the 3-4 defense New York was using under Coach Eric Mangini -- or that he just didn't like it.

New Orleans Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma says he's happy to be a part of any defensive scheme on a winning team.
Vilma clarified that notion this week.

"I never said I didn't like it, " said Vilma, who will face his former team for the first time in the Superdome on Sunday. "My problem is that we were losing, and I like to be winning."

That's why Vilma was perfectly happy spending last Sunday afternoon in the middle of another 3-4 defense, which the Saints used to shut down Buffalo in a 27-7 victory that upped their record to 3-0.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/10/new_orleans_saints_bring_back_1.html

ThruThick&Thin
01-06-2011, 12:15 AM
BUMP LOL

=) Knew it!!!!!!:texanbill::texanbill:

Norg
01-06-2011, 12:41 AM
I trust wade if he feels our Current D players like

Mario amobi and smith and cody in paticular cant work in a 3-4 then we will just have to get rid of them and get 3-4 players to replace them

its not like there win sheet is long they were apart of one of the worst D's ever last year

Texanmike02
01-06-2011, 12:57 AM
I trust wade if he feels our Current D players like

Mario amobi and smith and cody in paticular cant work in a 3-4 then we will just have to get rid of them and get 3-4 players to replace them


I have seen people talk about Mario as everything from an OLB to a NT in the 34. Personally I think he's a NT or maybe a DE. I just think he's too stiff to play LB. He's a long strider, and while fast, he takes a few steps to get to full speed. If you ask me he'd be an absolute nightmare if you asked him to cover anyone on a regular basis. I think though, that he'd be an incredible NT. He's big and athletic for a NT in the 34.

As for amobi, he's probably very suited for again, either the DE or the NT. He's big but quick for his size. I worry that he won't be able to keep blockers off the LB if he's playing the NT but as a DE he is kind of a dual threat.

Cody probably has to go though.

Mike

painekiller
01-06-2011, 02:40 AM
I have seen people talk about Mario as everything from an OLB to a NT in the 34. Personally I think he's a NT or maybe a DE. I just think he's too stiff to play LB. He's a long strider, and while fast, he takes a few steps to get to full speed. If you ask me he'd be an absolute nightmare if you asked him to cover anyone on a regular basis. I think though, that he'd be an incredible NT. He's big and athletic for a NT in the 34.

As for amobi, he's probably very suited for again, either the DE or the NT. He's big but quick for his size. I worry that he won't be able to keep blockers off the LB if he's playing the NT but as a DE he is kind of a dual threat.

Cody probably has to go though.

Mike

I would be looking to trade Okoye and Cody. Right now we have only one guy who fits the bill for a NT and that is Lewis, Cody might be able to play the NT. All the other guys are either 4-3 DTs only or 3-4 DEs. Mario is a DE in the 3-4, he will be moved around by Wade just like Wade did with Bruce Smith in Buffalo. Mario, Antonio Smith, Mitchell, Okoye, are better suited to the DE, and you guys should remember that Wade does not use a 5 technique in his system, his system uses a one gap penetration technique for the DEs.

We also have a few guys that should be able to play OLB in the 3-4, Cushing, with Cushing not really being a true 3-4 OLB prototype. Barwin, Anderson, Nading, Jamison should all get camp reps at OLB.

I see us drafting a true NT and a proto type 3-4 OLB, someone like Von Miller or Dontay Moch from Nevada. I would not be upset if we drafted a couple of OLBs and a couple of NT types.

76Texan
01-06-2011, 03:20 AM
A very nice and simple read on different 3-4 systems.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/5/7/481970/mhr-university-modern-3-4

This confirms my thought sometimes ago, that the Texans can run very well against the 3-4, thank you!

BigBull17
01-06-2011, 08:47 AM
Blitzing is what 3-4 outside 'backers do.

Cushing will be better in coverage than most of the 3-4 OLBS. He isn't great, but he is serviceable.