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80tothezone
12-08-2010, 07:28 PM
OK so First let me say that I have been one of the biggest critics of the coaching staff (especially frank bush) and I'm really not interested in hearing that the problem has anything to do with the O. Our problem is D end of story no one with an IQ that registers anywhere above a goose egg could think otherwise...

I have been going over the game film and I am starting to question whether the problem is really frank bush.... I mean every zone has holes in it and good QB's can find them the idea is to put pressure on him and make him throw before a receiver gets into position.

That being said upon reviewing the game film it seems that our biggest problem in the pass game is people are slow to react (which could be a coaching or tallent issue)... our LB's our safeties and our corners not to mention the complete lack of up the middle pressure and Mario playing hurt.

So the question I guess that I have is can you really put it all on Bush? Would replacing him actually fix the problem??? Or would that be changing something just for changes sake and even after we do that we still are in the same place next year?

BullsOnParade
12-08-2010, 07:37 PM
If you think it's all on Frank Bush, you're definitely mistaken. Sometimes, players just aren't good enough. With that said, he hasn't done a great job either.

The one question I want answered: who made the decision to go with the young secondary? Was it financial or was it because "these are the best guys we got?"

Whoever made that decision, whether it be Kubes, Rick Smith, Frank Bush, David Gibbs needs to go.

JB
12-08-2010, 07:54 PM
OK so First let me say that I have been one of the biggest critics of the coaching staff

With only 53 posts, there is no way you have been one of the biggest critics.

Our problem is D end of story no one with an IQ that registers anywhere above a goose egg could think otherwise...

That is a statement with a lot of asshattery in it.

I have been going over the game film and I am starting to question whether the problem is really frank bush.... I mean every zone has holes in it and good QB's can find them the idea is to put pressure on him and make him throw before a receiver gets into position.

That being said upon reviewing the game film it seems that our biggest problem in the pass game is people are slow to react (which could be a coaching or tallent issue)... our LB's our safeties and our corners not to mention the complete lack of up the middle pressure and Mario playing hurt.

So the question I guess that I have is can you really put it all on Bush? Would replacing him actually fix the problem??? Or would that be changing something just for changes sake and even after we do that we still are in the same place next year?

The rest of your posts brings up good questions. It has been mentioned before that the Texans do not have the team speed that they need. I question that though. I think the coaching staff has a real hard time getting the concept across to the players, or the players do not trust each other enough on defense. Everyone seems to be watching to make sure the other guy does not need help, so they are late to their own assignments.

It does not help them any when the offense does not do it's job early in games.

wagonhed
12-08-2010, 08:09 PM
http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/awjeeznotthisshitagain.jpg

:worldpeace:

Andre_Johnson
12-08-2010, 11:35 PM
Isn't it spelled "talent?"

Andre_Johnson
12-08-2010, 11:44 PM
It does not help them any when the offense does not do it's job early in games.

My theory is that Kubiak's gameplan going in to games doesn't always work, this causes a few bad drives to start most of our games. Yes you can blame our offense, but that means Kubiak so some changes do need to be made with our staff.

With that said, we obviously have the talent because once everyone's tempo reaches their peak (unfortunately well after the first half some games) our offense finds the endzone and the defense makes stops.

I want coaches who know how to prepare our players for the game right out of the gate.

Jackie Chiles
12-09-2010, 01:16 AM
Isn't it spelled "talent?"

We need more height.

80tothezone
12-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Isn't it spelled "talent?"

NO! it's spellled howw I wwannt to spelll itt

80tothezone
12-09-2010, 06:42 AM
If you think it's all on Frank Bush, you're definitely mistaken. Sometimes, players just aren't good enough. With that said, he hasn't done a great job either.

The one question I want answered: who made the decision to go with the young secondary? Was it financial or was it because "these are the best guys we got?"

Whoever made that decision, whether it be Kubes, Rick Smith, Frank Bush, David Gibbs needs to go.

ok (and keep in mind I don't like the guy) but what coaching decisions can one point to where he has made the bad call... I mean even the 3rd and 19 that lost us last weeks game It looked like he had a good D called, the players just didn't execute (bently I believe) was slow to get to the ball etc...

If coaching is the issue then I would think you would be able to find bad play calling that results in points etc, instead what I see more than not is bad execution.Now that to me falls on players and position coaches not on the DC... I guess what I may be realizing is that people (including me) are quick to see a D problem and blame the DC or a team problem and blame the HC cause it is easy and there is an easy case to be made for it i.e. the defense sucks so no matter what the problem will be solved by hiring a new DC...

I haven't looked up how many DC's and OC's we have had here but I know it is more than one and we still have the same problems which tends to make me think that the problem might be a little more complicated than that...just a little FFT

also i agree whoever it was that said we should go young should be fired obvious mistake..

80tothezone
12-09-2010, 06:49 AM
My theory is that Kubiak's gameplan going in to games doesn't always work, this causes a few bad drives to start most of our games. Yes you can blame our offense, but that means Kubiak so some changes do need to be made with our staff.

With that said, we obviously have the talent because once everyone's tempo reaches their peak (unfortunately well after the first half some games) our offense finds the endzone and the defense makes stops.

I want coaches who know how to prepare our players for the game right out of the gate.

I just don't see blaming an offense that puts up 24 ppg and splits TOP right down the middle with the D if the case were that we were putting up 24ppg and only holding the ball 12-15 mins then I could see the case... On average though we hold the ball 29:+ a game so I just can't see blaming them.

People see a few mistakes by schaub AFTER he has led a 7 min drive down the field to tie/go ahead and then when he can't do it again with less than 1:00 to go and no TO's they somehow come away with "schaub sucks we need a better O" I just don't get it ... I will say it again as I have said it before ... how many game winning/tieing drives can you ask a guy to make in single game...

Blake
12-09-2010, 08:58 AM
OK so First let me say that I have been one of the biggest critics of the coaching staff (especially frank bush) and I'm really not interested in hearing that the problem has anything to do with the O. Our problem is D end of story no one with an IQ that registers anywhere above a goose egg could think otherwise...

I have been going over the game film and I am starting to question whether the problem is really frank bush.... I mean every zone has holes in it and good QB's can find them the idea is to put pressure on him and make him throw before a receiver gets into position.

That being said upon reviewing the game film it seems that our biggest problem in the pass game is people are slow to react (which could be a coaching or tallent issue)... our LB's our safeties and our corners not to mention the complete lack of up the middle pressure and Mario playing hurt.

So the question I guess that I have is can you really put it all on Bush? Would replacing him actually fix the problem??? Or would that be changing something just for changes sake and even after we do that we still are in the same place next year?

That is the big question. Chicken or egg? We dont get to hear the coaching, planning, or game film discussion, so how should we know? This is on Gary to figure out and correct. Either he needs a new secondary, or a coach who can coach them up to their potential, and put in position to make plays.

Not much else to say. We just dont have the information required to make an informed decision, and the Houston Texans, along with most other franchises like it that way. Keep the fans in the dark.

Thorn
12-09-2010, 09:12 AM
Re: Defense coaching or tallent?

Well, I googled "tallent" and found several Tallent's Sausage and Grocery stores around Texas. So I guess the question is whether or not this chain of grocery stores has more effect on the Texans that does the defensive coaching.

Based on that, I'm gonna go with coaching as the problem.

80tothezone
12-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Well, I googled "tallent" and found several Tallent's Sausage and Grocery stores around Texas. So I guess the question is whether or not this chain of grocery stores has more effect on the Texans that does the defensive coaching.

Based on that, I'm gonna go with coaching as the problem.

funny but someone already said that one ....

Trail.Blazr
12-09-2010, 09:38 AM
funny but someone already said that one ....

funny but someone already debated coaching vs. talent too...

80tothezone
12-09-2010, 09:43 AM
funny but someone already debated coaching vs. talent too...

yeh but not with the insightful analysis that I bring to the table :) or maybe they did I don't know didn't see the thread...obviously ....

Hagar
12-09-2010, 09:52 AM
Both. The NFL channel did alot of analysis of our team just before the Thursday night game and it wasn't very pretty. With the backfield, they talked about technique alot, which lends itself to coaching. With the Dline, it was about getting pushed around.

HOU-TEX
12-09-2010, 10:02 AM
Without going on another never-ending rant like I did yesterday with my brother-in-law, I'll keep it short.

Let's take the Ravens and Steelers defense for example. Do they have badass CB's? Nope, the Ravens have Chris Carr and Josh Wilson and the Steelers have Bryant McFadden and Ike Taylor starting for them. While they aren't bums, they aren't exactly proven pro bowlers.

So, what is it that makes these two defenses very good? Well, I think I can come up with a couple of answers that say our problems are with talent AND coaching. Both the Steelers and Ravens are dominant with their front sevens. Their DC's put them in positions for success, whether it's stunting or blitzing the hell out of offenses, they're creating havoc in the backfield.

They both also have one or two dominant NT/DT's in Hampton, Ngata, Gregg, etc. Dominant LB's in Suggs, Harrison, Rayray, Woodley, etc. And they also each have a dominant safety with Polamalu and Reed.

So my answer is both. It's the DC's job to put the players in the best position to succeed. Is Bush doing this? IMO, absolutely not. Having one or two dominant players on each level helps a lot and I think we're missing the DT and Safety position. BUT, there's no doubt in my mind that this defense couldn't be much better than what we see every week if the coach found ways to make up for their deficiencies.

Damn, ended up a rant anyways

Texans_Chick
12-11-2010, 10:28 PM
More than that.

It is beyond coaching and talent.

It is a systemic problem in putting together a defense. The only time the Texans had a defense that was even semi-good, it was put together from older, experienced players procured through the expansion draft.

They need a proven GM. They need a proven DC who has built a defense, and has a specific philosophy to draft/obtain free agents for. They may even have to evaluate how they practice--how can you get big fat guys on defense if you are going to kill them in the summer heat.

Whatever Kubiak's failings were, he took an offense that was crap, and built it into something that more often than not looks like NFL football. If he could do that on the offensive side of the ball, there has to be an experienced DC that could do that for the other side.

IDEXAN
12-11-2010, 10:38 PM
One of Kubiaks faults is that he lacks flexibility. When he first came here, before he even hired a DC, he started making personnel decisions to staff
a 4-3 since the Texans were running a defense, the 3-4, that he'd not seen in Denver. And of course he's not an defensive coach, but for some reason he just apparently was uncomfortable with a non 4-3 D ?

eriadoc
12-12-2010, 12:19 AM
Kubiak hired the DC. When he didn't work out, Kubiak fired him and hired another DC. Kubiak hired the defensive coaches. When some of them didn't work out/left, Kubiak hired new ones of those. Kubiak drafted all the defensive players. When the ones he brought in initially didn't work out, Kubiak fired them and brought in new ones. When the ones he inherited didn't work out, Kubiak fired them and brought in new ones.

If you look closely, there's a common denominator in all that.

beerlover
12-12-2010, 01:30 AM
I would say its game planning & execution of said game plan.

Lucky
12-12-2010, 02:29 AM
They need a proven GM. They need a proven DC who has built a defense, and has a specific philosophy to draft/obtain free agents for.
Why would a proven GM want to inherit a failed head coach, such as Gary Kubiak? Why would a proven DC want to work under Gary Kubiak?

Don't get me wrong, I think hiring a proven GM and a proven DC are great ideas. But, why not get a matched set and hire a proven head coach? Trying to come up with scenarios to make the Kubiak Experiment work is a waste of time.

IDEXAN
12-12-2010, 09:10 AM
If you look closely, there's a common denominator in all that.

Mario & DeMeco - very good picks. Okoye & Kareem - maybe not so good ?
I don't see a common denominator there, I see hit & miss.
It's really not that complicated people, the Texans just have to be more consistant in drafting good players on defense. And please don't blame Frank Bush anymore, everybody seems to want to jump on that bandwagon ?
But if I were to tear-up the mold and start anew, I think I'd be tempted to get the Schottenheimers - father and son. Brian could run the offense and
we'd get MartyBall for the D, and of course they would make the personnel decisions. As far as the GM position - McNair could use his son, whatever, it'd just be a figure-head poisiton with the Schottenheimers in control.

eriadoc
12-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Mario & DeMeco - very good picks. Okoye & Kareem - maybe not so good ?
I don't see a common denominator there, I see hit & miss.
It's really not that complicated people, the Texans just have to be more consistant in drafting good players on defense. And please don't blame Frank Bush anymore, everybody seems to want to jump on that bandwagon ?
But if I were to tear-up the mold and start anew, I think I'd be tempted to get the Schottenheimers - father and son. Brian could run the offense and
we'd get MartyBall for the D, and of course they would make the personnel decisions. As far as the GM position - McNair could use his son, whatever, it'd just be a figure-head poisiton with the Schottenheimers in control.

Hint: It's not the players or Frank Bush.

dream_team
12-12-2010, 03:34 PM
The one question I want answered: who made the decision to go with the young secondary? Was it financial or was it because "these are the best guys we got?"

Actually, the secondary isn't young, just the corners are.

And this wasn't plan A. Plan A was to re-sign Dunta, but Atlanta overpaid for him, and good decision to not match. Plan B was to sign Leigh Bodden, but he ended up just using Houston as a leverage. So they had to go with Plan C, draft a CB in the first round.

You can make the argument they should've kept Reeves to have a veteran corner, but the fact no other team has picked him up until goes to show how bad Reeves really is.

CloakNNNdagger
12-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Actually, the secondary isn't young, just the corners are.

And this wasn't plan A. Plan A was to re-sign Dunta, but Atlanta overpaid for him, and good decision to not match. Plan B was to sign Leigh Bodden, but he ended up just using Houston as a leverage. So they had to go with Plan C, draft a CB in the first round.

You can make the argument they should've kept Reeves to have a veteran corner, but the fact no other team has picked him up until goes to show how bad Reeves really is.

So we chose to go with CBs that are really really bad instead.:gun:

TEXANRED
12-12-2010, 04:45 PM
2006
Further information: 2006 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/1 Mario Williams Defensive end North Carolina State
2/33 DeMeco Ryans Linebacker Alabama
3/65 Charles Spencer Offensive tackle Pittsburgh
3/66 (from New Orleans) Eric Winston Offensive tackle Miami (FL)
4/98 Owen Daniels Tight end Wisconsin
6/170 Wali Lundy Running back Virginia
7/251 David Anderson Wide receiver Colorado State

Williams, great pick.
Ryans, great pick.

Thats all the D we drafted for 2006. Two, two players is all we drafted when switching from the 34 to the 43.


2007 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville
3/73 Jacoby Jones Wide receiver Lane
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State

Okoye, bust
Bennett, took my order at McDonalds yesterday
Harrison, who?
Diles, it's a crime he is still on the team

2008 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State

Molden, can't stay not hurt, bust.
Adibi, can't stay not hurt, bust.
Okam, he is really really smart, I like him on a personal level, but, bust
Barber, this is the only team that he could start or play for, horrible.


Further information: 2009 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State

Cushing, outstanding player
Barwin, project, rush specialist, may have suffered career ending injury
Quin, should be a solid nickle but due to a lack of thought and foresight by the Texans coaching staff is forced to be a starter.
McCain, Depth
Nolan, Depth

2010 NFL Draft
Round/Pick Player Position College
1/20 Kareem Jackson Cornerback Alabama
2/58 (from New England) Ben Tate Running back Auburn
3/81 Earl Mitchell Defensive tackle Arizona
4/102 (from Kansas City) Darryl Sharpton Linebacker Miami (FL)
4/118 Garrett Graham Tight end Wisconsin
5/144 (from Kansas City) Sherrick McManis Cornerback Northwestern
6/187 Shelley Smith Offensive guard Colorado State
6/197 (from San Diego) Trindon Holliday Wide receiver LSU
7/227 Dorin Dickerson Tight end Pittsburgh


Jackson, to early to tell. My personal opinion he is too slow and will prove to be a liability his entire career and I feel he will be a bust.
Mitchell, can't beat out Cody for a starting spot, It's early to call him a bust but that is what I am calling him IMO.
Sharpton, upgrade over Diles, jury is still out but I don't see him as an NFL starter. He is our best option at this point, quality depth.
McManis, why is he still on the team?


To summarize:

38 players drafted
19 players drafted for defense
= 50% of drafted players

Out of those 19 players
8 are starters
= 42.1%

Out of those 8 starters 3 are quility NFL starters and 2 of those 3 where drafted 5 years ago.

5 years
19 players
8 starters
3 quality starters
= 15.7% of players drafted are NFL quality.

Further Break Down

2006, 2 drafted, 2 solid starters
2007, 4 drafted, none are worthy to be starters, 2 already off the team
2008, 4 drafted, none are starters, all four are depth at best
2009, 5 drafted, 1 starter, 1 project, 3 depth. (I am counting Quin as depth, any other team he might still be on the practice squad.)
2010, 4 drafted, 1 starter, 1 starter due to no other choice, 2 depth

Fact:

Average career of an NFL player is 3.3 years.

Commentary:

This crap of building through the draft is crap when you can't draft and have the worst scouting department in the NFL.

Smith and Kubiak should be fired due to their drafting and their lack of commitment to the scouts.

texanchris
12-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Rick Smith cant even take credit for the 2006 draft class. I dont see why a lot of people arent calling for his head just as much as Kubiak and Bush. he drafted a good player in Cushing but who knows if he will be the same after having "Over trained athlete syndrome" and glover quinn who has had a pretty good career except for spiking the ball into Mike Thomas's hands. Other than that none of his draft picks have lived up to expectations and a lot of the high draft picks dont even deserve to step on the field.

TEXANRED
12-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Actually, the secondary isn't young, just the corners are.

And this wasn't plan A. Plan A was to re-sign Dunta, but Atlanta overpaid for him, and good decision to not match. Plan B was to sign Leigh Bodden, but he ended up just using Houston as a leverage. So they had to go with Plan C, draft a CB in the first round.

You can make the argument they should've kept Reeves to have a veteran corner, but the fact no other team has picked him up until goes to show how bad Reeves really is.

Something happened in the locker room with Reeves. I wouldn't doubt that Smith said something to him and Reeves told him where he could go. There is no reason he should have been benched, or not have been picked up by now.

Smith's ego will be his undoing and is the reason why we continue to fail and he is taking Kubiak down with him.

Crap, now I am agreeing with Richard Justice. Further reason I hate Smith.

I still have just as many INT's as DRob in 2 years and make $25 million less than he does.

Look at Reeves stats compare to DRobublind:


Dunta Robinson | #23 | CB
Atlanta Falcons | Official Team Site

Height: 5-10 Weight: 182 Age: 28
Born: 4/11/1982 Athens , GA
College: South Carolina
Experience: 7th season
High School: Clarke Central HS [Athens, GA]

2010 Atlanta Falcons 11 11 38 36 2 0.0 -- 5 -- -- 0.0 -- -- 0
2009 Houston Texans 16 16 64 54 10 0.0 -- 9 -- -- 0.0 -- -- 1
2008 Houston Texans 11 6 38 35 3 0.0 -- 6 2 0 0.0 0 0 0
2007 Houston Texans 9 9 34 29 5 0.0 -- 7 2 6 3.0 10 0 0
2006 Houston Texans 16 16 82 69 13 0.0 0 10 2 9 4.5 9T 1 1
2005 Houston Texans 16 16 88 69 19 1.0 -- 9 1 1 1.0 1 0 1
2004 Houston Texans 16 16 87 73 14 3.0 -- 13 6 146 24.3 61 0 3


Jacques Reeves | #35 | CB
Houston Texans | Official Team Site

Height: 5-11 Weight: 188 Age: 28
Born: 10/8/1982 Lancaster , TX
College: Purdue
Experience: 7th season
High School: Lancaster HS [TX]

Career Statsmore
Season Team Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
G GS Comb Total Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int Yds Avg Lng TDs FF
2009 Houston Texans 12 5 31 25 6 0.0 -- 7 1 19 19.0 19 0 0
2008 Houston Texans 16 16 52 48 4 0.0 0 19 4 108 27.0 44T 1 1
2007 Dallas Cowboys 16 13 60 52 8 0.0 -- 12 1 18 18.0 18 0 1
2006 Dallas Cowboys 13 0 12 9 3 0.0 -- 1 -- -- 0.0 -- -- 0
2005 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 15 12 3 0.0 -- 4 -- -- 0.0 -- -- 0
2004 Dallas Cowboys 15 1 19 17 2 0.0 -- 2 -- -- 0.0 -- -- 0
TOTAL 189 163 26 0.0 0 45 6 145 -- 44 1 2

eriadoc
12-12-2010, 09:25 PM
I still have just as many INT's as DRob in 2 years and make $25 million less than he does.

You're doing it wrong.

DocBar
12-12-2010, 09:28 PM
I gotta go with coaching on this. Last season, we dumbed the system down and let the players paly. We started out sucky and did well the rest of the season. That is supposed to be a hallmark of Bush. Keep it simple and let players go to the ball. Play with passion and swarm the ball.
This season, we aren't playing well, aren't playing smart and aren't playing with passion.
If you look at the great D's in NFL history, they all played with great passion and intensity. We have none of that. That falls on the coaching staff for poor game planning and poor preperation.
Put our players in good positions, they tend to perform well. Put them in situations they can't handle, they fail.
Bush seems unable to find a combination that works. I can't fault Kubiak for that, but it seems clear to me.
On the O side of the ball, Kubes seems to married to his scripted plays to be effective in the early stages of a game. If the D has your game plan or scripted plays figured out, improvise a bit. Go to a hurry up offense to change the tempo, run some draws or screens, throw some razzle dazzle out there. Do SOMETHING other than the scripted plays. Make the D react to you instead of vice versa.

TEXANRED
12-12-2010, 11:31 PM
You're doing it wrong.

I thought about it and you're right. I just fired my agent.

Someone let the Texans know I am available and if they don't sign me to a long term deal quick I am going to walk.

ArlingtonTexan
12-13-2010, 11:09 AM
More than that.

It is beyond coaching and talent.

It is a systemic problem in putting together a defense. The only time the Texans had a defense that was even semi-good, it was put together from older, experienced players procured through the expansion draft.

They need a proven GM. They need a proven DC who has built a defense, and has a specific philosophy to draft/obtain free agents for. They may even have to evaluate how they practice--how can you get big fat guys on defense if you are going to kill them in the summer heat.

Whatever Kubiak's failings were, he took an offense that was crap, and built it into something that more often than not looks like NFL football. If he could do that on the offensive side of the ball, there has to be an experienced DC that could do that for the other side.

The biggest problem with Kubiak has been his selection of staff.

1) I don't have a real problem with him selecting people he knows and are comfortable with. His problem since most his career was as a Bronco is that he does not have a big enough circle of people.

2) He also seem to lack the confidence to go through the interview process and evaluate whether a bright young guy that he has loose at best ties, a grizzled veteran who never worked with or Frank Bush is really better fitted to be DC.

b0ng
12-13-2010, 01:28 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You don't need to have All-Pro talent at every position on defense to make it work at an average level. Jacksonville and Tennessee have both had great defenses with barely any players that were household names. Atlanta's defense isn't that terrible and I couldn't tell you who the hell their starters are outside of Abraham and Robinson (And I only know Robinson because of his time here).

The fact that our defense has been chicken shit for 2 years now (They weren't even above average last year in terms of how many points they gave up per game) and we have players like Mario Williams, Brian Cushing and Demeco Ryans makes me think that these idiots couldn't find a role player if they were at a Dungeons and Dragons convention. I'm sorry, but this whole Talent/Coaching thing is ridiculous to me, if Frank Bush is here in 2011 (If there's even football to be played) everybody needs to be fired then. It should not take a DC 3 ****ing years to put together something that looks like it could stop Boy Scout Troop 306.

Also, I'm not sure of the rest of you folks, but any half-ass DC would love to come down here because all they have to do is be mediocre and cause a turnover every once in awhile and they will be treated like a golden god. The offense is good enough to carry a defense that is not historically bad

MightyTExan
12-13-2010, 03:47 PM
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5540/1290329860648.png

Wolf6151
12-13-2010, 04:16 PM
BOTH...

Add a 3rd factor to the equation, Motivation. Our scheme sucks. b0ng is right even an average DC could do better than Bush has done this year, this scheme is plain jane vanilla like what we had with Richard Smith, it sucks. Our talent level leaves a bit to be desired as well, we suck at DT, FS, WLB, and CB. Obviously our talent level could be improved. With a bad scheme and average talent level we still lack motivation and from time to time we see the players pull out a great defensive effort. So with the same players and same scheme they can get the job done occaisionally. This tells me they lack heart, integrity, or motivation. You don't coach a young group of players the same way you do with a group of experienced veterans and our coaching staff hasn't figured that out. When you lack talent at key positions, run a vanilla scheme, and the players lack motivation then you get the 2010 Texans defense.

Mr teX
12-13-2010, 04:46 PM
BOTH...

Add a 3rd factor to the equation, Motivation. Our scheme sucks. b0ng is right even an average DC could do better than Bush has done this year, this scheme is plain jane vanilla like what we had with Richard Smith, it sucks. Our talent level leaves a bit to be desired as well, we suck at DT, FS, WLB, and CB. Obviously our talent level could be improved. With a bad scheme and average talent level we still lack motivation and from time to time we see the players pull out a great defensive effort. So with the same players and same scheme they can get the job done occaisionally. This tells me they lack heart, integrity, or motivation. You don't coach a young group of players the same way you do with a group of experienced veterans and our coaching staff hasn't figured that out. When you lack talent at key positions, run a vanilla scheme, and the players lack motivation then you get the 2010 Texans defense.

All these things have next to nothing to do with coaching which is why i ultimately fall on the side of it mainly being a talent issue. For 1, i can't help but think of how many players we've let go of that have either not been signed by anyone or aren't starting having been relegated to ST for other teams. That says alot imo.

Guys like Patrick Willis, Tom Brady, Kobe Bryant & even our very own Demeco don't play with all of the above exuding from their pores b/c a coach coached them to play that way. That is natural. They want to be the most intimidating, the leader & the guy that makes the biggest play b/c above all else, they want to win.

The problem with our guys however is that the individual talent of each player doesn't equal up to their heart & motivation. Look at pollard. He about as intense as anybody on the field & when he gets ahold of you, he rocks you pretty good. Put him out in space to cover someone & he looks like a fish out of water. Same player, same intensity he just doesn't have the talent to do what ultimately is his primary job. You can say that about 8-9 of our guys on defense.

b0ng
12-13-2010, 06:18 PM
All these things have next to nothing to do with coaching which is why i ultimately fall on the side of it mainly being a talent issue. For 1, i can't help but think of how many players we've let go of that have either not been signed by anyone or aren't starting having been relegated to ST for other teams. That says alot imo.

Guys like Patrick Willis, Tom Brady, Kobe Bryant & even our very own Demeco don't play with all of the above exuding from their pores b/c a coach coached them to play that way. That is natural. They want to be the most intimidating, the leader & the guy that makes the biggest play b/c above all else, they want to win.

The problem with our guys however is that the individual talent of each player doesn't equal up to their heart & motivation. Look at pollard. He about as intense as anybody on the field & when he gets ahold of you, he rocks you pretty good. Put him out in space to cover someone & he looks like a fish out of water. Same player, same intensity he just doesn't have the talent to do what ultimately is his primary job. You can say that about 8-9 of our guys on defense.

Motivation and determination fall entirely on the coaching staff. Can't get your role players to play their role? **** you, you're fired. Can't players into the proper positions to make a stop? **** you, you're fired. All the decent players that come here, seem to get worse and worse and worse talent wise? **** you, you're fired.

You build your scheme around the damn players you have, you don't use somebody elses scheme and hope it works. You have to evaluate your talent so that you aren't always putting bernard pollard in coverage. Don't put Kareem Jackson one-on-one with receivers he's a ****ing rookie for shits sake. Rotate players who are under performing until you find some ****ing guys who want to be the starters.

These are not cutting edge coaching points. I'm not running seminars for defensive coordinators. Is it any wonder that Bill Kollar pretty much sucks as a DL coach after all that great work he (I mean, Aaron Schobel) he did in Buffalo? **** no! David Gibbs and Ray Rhodes? What are they, pulling names out of a hat?

No the DC needs to get the **** out and that's that. Bring in a new DC, and if he wants to get rid of all the players, then so be it, but I'm not in any favor whatsoever in keeping Frank Bush in any capacity, and neither should anybody here.

JB
12-13-2010, 07:08 PM
Damn bong, I think you should tell us how you really feel.

You left a few out. How about Johnny Holland and Joe Marciano?

Mr teX
12-13-2010, 07:51 PM
Motivation and determination fall entirely on the coaching staff. Can't get your role players to play their role? **** you, you're fired. Can't players into the proper positions to make a stop? **** you, you're fired. All the decent players that come here, seem to get worse and worse and worse talent wise? **** you, you're fired.

You build your scheme around the damn players you have, you don't use somebody elses scheme and hope it works. You have to evaluate your talent so that you aren't always putting bernard pollard in coverage. Don't put Kareem Jackson one-on-one with receivers he's a ****ing rookie for shits sake. Rotate players who are under performing until you find some ****ing guys who want to be the starters.

These are not cutting edge coaching points. I'm not running seminars for defensive coordinators. Is it any wonder that Bill Kollar pretty much sucks as a DL coach after all that great work he (I mean, Aaron Schobel) he did in Buffalo? **** no! David Gibbs and Ray Rhodes? What are they, pulling names out of a hat?

No the DC needs to get the **** out and that's that. Bring in a new DC, and if he wants to get rid of all the players, then so be it, but I'm not in any favor whatsoever in keeping Frank Bush in any capacity, and neither should anybody here.

To even make it in the pros of any sport you have to have a certain level of motivation & determination. This level is usually higher than that of the average person. If motivation & determination were entirely on the coaching staff as you claim, guys would instantly fall to pieces after coaching changes. Your approach might work for some but not many as some guys just need/want a chance. Most of these guys however are motivated by their own things - whatever that may be.

& you kind of made my point in a roundabout way. Ray Rhodes is 1 of the most respected defensive minds in football. what's more likely: he's completely lost his marbles as a defensive guy in the nfl or that the guys on the field just suck too much to execute the scheme? Okoye is just a bust but Pollard was on the street when we picked him up for a reason. McManis/McCain, Diles & Quinn were all passed on & late round picks in the league for a reason & i just don't understand why people can't see this.

I don't think anyone is advocating keeping bush, but you can't seriously believe that with a different coach this bunch would be significantly better than what they are. They're too young & not talented enough for the plan that this coaching staff had for them.

JB
12-13-2010, 07:56 PM
To even make it in the pros of any sport you have to have a certain level of motivation & determination. This level is usually higher than that of the average person. If motivation & determination were entirely on the coaching staff as you claim, guys would instantly fall to pieces after coaching changes. Your approach might work for some but not many as some guys just need/want a chance. Most of these guys however are motivated by their own things - whatever that may be.

& you kind of made my point in a roundabout way. Ray Rhodes is 1 of the most respected defensive minds in football. what's more likely: he's completely lost his marbles as a defensive guy in the nfl or that the guys on the field just suck too much to execute the scheme? Okoye is just a bust but Pollard was on the street when we picked him up for a reason. McManis/McCain, Diles & Quinn were all passed on & late round picks in the league for a reason & i just don't understand why people can't see this.

I don't think anyone is advocating keeping bush, but you can't seriously believe that with a different coach this bunch would be significantly better than what they are. They're too young & not talented enough for the plan that this coaching staff had for them.

Ok, so the defense seemed to be in pretty good order the last 10 games last year. Other than Robinson & Reeves leaving, what has changed?

DexmanC
12-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Ok, so the defense seemed to be in pretty good order the last 10 games last year. Other than Robinson & Reeves leaving, what has changed?

The veteran Robinson and the veteran Reeves often covered up
for the deficiencies of our safeties. There was one play last year
against the Bengals where Dunta made a TD-saving tackle on
Ochocinco. On closer inspection, another player (safety or linebacker)
busted a coverage, and Dunta hauled ass from the other side of the field,
and made the tackle just in time.

Plays like that happened all year long, but we were too busy hatin' on
Dunta to notice. Myself, included.

Mr teX
12-13-2010, 09:47 PM
The veteran Robinson and the veteran Reeves often covered up
for the deficiencies of our safeties. There was one play last year
against the Bengals where Dunta made a TD-saving tackle on
Ochocinco. On closer inspection, another player (safety or linebacker)
busted a coverage, and Dunta hauled ass from the other side of the field,
and made the tackle just in time.

Plays like that happened all year long, but we were too busy hatin' on
Dunta to notice. Myself, included.

OMG Dex..i actually agree with you! Still doesn't change the fact we need better coaching & drafting though.

Rey
12-13-2010, 09:49 PM
The veteran Robinson and the veteran Reeves often covered up
for the deficiencies of our safeties. There was one play last year
against the Bengals where Dunta made a TD-saving tackle on
Ochocinco. On closer inspection, another player (safety or linebacker)
busted a coverage, and Dunta hauled ass from the other side of the field,
and made the tackle just in time.

Plays like that happened all year long, but we were too busy hatin' on
Dunta to notice. Myself, included.

Yep...

I was one of the guys who still wanted Dunta around....


How can you be a team that is saying you want to make a push for the play-offs for the first time in the franchises history and get rid of all of your veteran corners...

Pretty silly.

And this is not hindsight...I was begging for Dunta to be franchised last year...

Mr teX
12-13-2010, 09:57 PM
You & me both. Pay me rick boy is looking like a pro bowler right now. I bet he's sitting back laughing his ass off at this shitty pamper we call a team.

Malloy
12-13-2010, 10:18 PM
The 'good' thing is that Quin seems to be all over tonight.

I'm thinking it's coaching, off with their heads! :)

eriadoc
12-14-2010, 01:42 AM
If it's the players, then it's Kubiak who drafted them, decided who to cut and keep, and decides who gets time on game day. Every player on this team was chosen by Kubiak except for AJ.

If it's the DC, then Kubiak's the guy who hired the DC. Then he fired him and hired this one.

If it's the defensive position coaches, then Kubiak is the one who hired and replaced them as well.

If it's the GM, then Kubiak is the one who hired him as well.

This is 100% Kubiak's team and Kubiak's fault. All roads lead back to Kubiak.