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Grid
04-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Worst Free Agent Signing (tie) Dexter Coakley, St. Louis Rams /
Morlon Greenwood, Miami Dolphins
Dexter Coakley is a natural fit within defensive coordinator Larry
Marmie's scheme and his veteran presence addresses a big problem area for the Rams' defense. On the downside, Coakley turns 33 in October and not many linebackers stay healthy as the approach their mid-30s. Can the Rams squeeze out a season or two of productive play from Coakley? Stay tuned.

Another linebacker move that raised some eyebrows was Houston's signing of former Dolphins linebacker Morlon Greenwood. Greenwood plays hard and brings a lot of speed to the Texans' defense, but they are paying a lot of upfront money for a linebacker who has no track record as a true playmaker.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3510740

Vinny
04-04-2005, 01:37 PM
He is coming to be the Buc. The buc is the strongside coverage LB. The playmaker is the Mac (Sharpers position).

rittenhouserobz
04-04-2005, 01:48 PM
Is that writer the ultimate authority on personnel decisions? I would have to wonder. I don't care much for labels and the ideals that a sports writer has for a football player. Many writers seem to be wrong as much as they are right. How many of them were saying Drob is going to be one of the best defensive rookies last year?

Htown34s
04-04-2005, 02:49 PM
It seems the majority of sport writers are overcome with SportsCenter-itous, they overhype a few players and make them into stars then don't pay attention to important players who fit into the puzzle the coach is making.

That type of reporting works for the NBA and in MLB to some degree, but football is a team sport above all.

I'm fine with having more wins than flashy superstar players, just like New England.

Vinny
04-04-2005, 02:52 PM
Is that writer the ultimate authority on personnel decisions? I would have to wonder. I don't care much for labels and the ideals that a sports writer has for a football player. Many writers seem to be wrong as much as they are right. How many of them were saying Drob is going to be one of the best defensive rookies last year?Seems as good a time as any to reread Ron Borges's (writer that covers the NFL for the Boston Globe) draft evaluation from April 23, 2001:

D-
NEW ENGLAND - You hate to fail anybody who shows up for class but
what are they doing? If you didn't know better, you'd think the Jets sent
Bill Belichick north to destroy the Patriots from within. On a day when they
could have had impact players David Terrell or Koren Robinson or the
second-best tackle in the draft in Kenyatta Walker, they took Georgia
defensive tackle Richard Seymour, who had 1 sacks last season in the
pass-happy SEC and is too tall to play tackle at 6-6 and too slow to play
defensive end. This genius move was followed by trading out of a spot where
they could have gotten the last decent receiver in Robert Ferguson and
settled for tackle Matt Light, who will not help any time soon unless last
year's draftees Adrian Klemm and Greg Robinson-Randle are busts.

http://lists.rollanet.org/pipermail/rampage/Week-of-Mon-20010423/003626.html

El Tejano
04-04-2005, 03:03 PM
And from what I hear, the Pats ended up getting David Terrell recently right?

TheOgre
04-04-2005, 03:06 PM
Vinny that quote is hilarious on so many levels:

1. The obvious ->> 3 Super Bowls later

2. David Terrell and Kenyatta Walker were busts, and Koren Robinson has been a disappointment. Richard Seymour is great.

3. Adrian Klemm and Greg Randle-Robinson were busts. Matt Light is now the starting LT.

Wow this guy has the magic touch!! I guess since he singled them out, Greenwood and Coakley are both going to the Pro Bowl soon.

Vinny
04-04-2005, 03:08 PM
It was a different guy who did this fox sports profiles, but it illustrates how silly it is to dog a player (or a draft) until the players hit the field. Once you see the guys in their destined scheme/projected roles and they don't work out...Fire away.

clandestin
04-04-2005, 05:30 PM
He is coming to be the Buc. The buc is the strongside coverage LB. The playmaker is the Mac (Sharpers position).

Capers referring to Greenwood:
"If you look at him physically, he's the prototype split-side linebacker," coach Dom Capers said. "He's 238. He's smart. He's got a great work ethic.

I believe the 'split-side linebacker' is Sharper's old Mac position, so doesn't the quote seem to indicate he'll be starting there? I can definitely see an arguement for your point of view, given foreman's track record in coverage though.

AndreJ
04-04-2005, 06:06 PM
I don't think that you can justify what were the worst free agent signings this offseason until you see how the players produce with their new team...Just my initial thought when i first read this.

nunusguy
04-04-2005, 06:58 PM
The Greenwood thing was pricey but I think its got real upside for the team and it's gonna be fun to watch that develope.
One of the really bizare off season personell moves(or collection of moves as it were) was this parade of D lineman from Clevland to Denver. No less that 4 Downlinmen in a Browns uniform last season ended up in Denver. In case you didn't hear, Cleveland didn't do real well last year (though they looked alot better than us in the season final).
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/broncos/home.htm

Vinny
04-04-2005, 08:59 PM
Capers referring to Greenwood:

I believe the 'split-side linebacker' is Sharper's old Mac position, so doesn't the quote seem to indicate he'll be starting there? I can definitely see an arguement for your point of view, given foreman's track record in coverage though.Yeah it would, but everything else tells me he would be best at the buc but he would know better than me. I had someone tell me he would be used like Capers used Sam Mills and that would be the weakside, so I guess it all points to that spot.

scourge
04-04-2005, 10:50 PM
These two made me laugh as well...


D
CINCINNATI - The Bengals could have had a solid tackle in Kenyatta
Walker, which was a major area of need, but opted for gambling on pass
rusher Justin Smith, which with their track record all but guarantees he'll
be a bust. Smith is a workout warrior, but he doesn't play the run well or
hold his ground well. Perfect Bengals pick. They followed that up in the
second round by taking another risk in wide receiver Chad Johnson, who has
played one season of big-time college ball after a a checkered three seasons
split between Langston University and Santa Monica J.C. Has an upside but a
bigger downside. Why do they always do this to themselves?
NEW ORLEANS - They don't get to make a pick for two years, and when
they finally do they take another running back and trade away their
second-round choice? Ricky Williams cost them dearly in 1999, and the Saints
come back and use this year's No. 1 pick for Deuce McAllister. GM Randy
Mueller was NFL executive of the year last season but not by making
decisions like this.

outofhnd
04-04-2005, 11:14 PM
Sounds like those NFL commercials where the guys were discussing football 6 months before the season started.

Steelers Picked Rosth sumthing.... yea Nice pick Cowher.
Kellen Winslow is going to be an impact player in Cleveland this year.
Who do I like in the West? 49ers...

I like watching FA signings Ect they may not be stars, but it gives you an idea of what we are gearing ourselves towards.

Signing Morlon Greenwood means we felt that our underneath Linebacker coverage wasn't good enough to keep Foreman, and Sharper apparantly wasnt making enough plays/not wanting to rework his contract to where the 2 sides could agree. We want to get faster at this position, so that was the type we signed.

When they signed Stacey Mack it meant Wells wasnt productive enough and we like the Power running back and this is who we see being productive in that scheme.

U4ikrob
04-05-2005, 05:06 PM
I like the idea of the staff keeping new blood in the mix and trying to find a group of LB's that can make a difference on the field.

The parts I dont like is how the front office seems to keep signing guys every year whom most people in the league dont seem to think much of and trying to turn them into something more in our scheme.

I could give examples of every year and our FA signings at LB - but the point is moot.

The jury is out on Greenwood, babin, peek and the new mix of LB's until they get on the field and we can see what they do. Based on our history so far with doing this same thing, I think we might need to draft a few extra playmakers to add to the LB corp as our FA LB signings thus far have turned out pretty horrible.

Anybody Remember the Charlie Clemmons deal and how well that worked out ? How about losing Foley for Foreman and getting Dashon Polk? Losing Jeff Posey for nada? - our track record hasnt exactly been stellar thus far with many FA signings and we seem to always loose our best LB's rather than gaining impact players for big dolalrs. So call me a little leary on this one for now. :listening

Grid
04-05-2005, 06:02 PM
Signing players no one cares about because we think they will shine in our system.. is exactly how you build a dynasty.

You cannot build a long term championship caliber team by signing the best FAs every year. You will put yourself in salary cap hell and your playoff run will be akin to a bottle rocket. FOOOSH!!! POW!! *silence*

People say we are overpaying.. and we are to a certain degree.. but we are still an expansion team and im sure players need a little extra incentive to come play for us..even so, we have been very smart with the way we structure our contracts and none of these supposedly "incredibly overpaid" players have hurt our salary cap yet.


Good 3-4 LBs are not your typical NFL LB. Which is why its easy to assume that some "nobody" that we signed is just an overpaid waste of space. Fact of the matter is that an LB could suck in a 4-3.. but totally own in a 3-4. The systems work completely different. So dont look at every "nobody" signing as us scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Id rather pay 20 million for 2 unknown players who could succeed or fail in our system.. than 30 million for one old vet who could succeed or fail in our system :P. We are signing people who have what we need.. instead of signing someone based on how well known they are.

outofhnd
04-05-2005, 11:05 PM
approach the offseason with this

W.W.C.D

What Would Casserly Do?

michaelm
04-06-2005, 10:50 AM
Brian DeLucia, the writer quoted in the original post is one of the ourlads.com guys who, as a group, have been far less than impressive to me. I can't name any other instances with DeLucia specifically, but I believe that ourlads has been called out numerous times on these boards for laughable mocks and questionable analysis. He makes one point that, to me, nullifies his entire stance... and that is that the Texans are paying a lot of up front money. This is just not the case.
We have discussed here several times that the contract is reasonable for the first few years and that the last year is very large, but not likely to be paid. If Greenwood fails to produce to the level of the back end of the contract, he will not be around to collect... if he plays well, but not that well, he will most likely be asked to renegotiate, or be released.
Bottom line is, if I were in Vegas and had the opportunity to put my $ straight up between Cass and DeLucia, I will go with Cass every time and laugh in DeLucia's face all the way to the bank...!

Vinny
04-06-2005, 01:05 PM
I believe that ourlads has been called out numerous times on these boards for laughable mocks and questionable analysis. Historically Ourlads has put out one of the best pre-draft guides for NFL fans year-in-year-out. How do you call a mock laughable in March? Unless you can see the future all mocks are questionable and all will change right up to the real draft. I'm not rendering an opinion on this article, but they have a good track record despite what you or others think.

Blake
04-06-2005, 01:14 PM
One thing I like about ourlads is their top 64 board. I hate when I see both QB's 1 and 2. Followed by stud players. I know QB's have value and will be taken near the top, but that doesnt mean they are the best players.

They are 18, and 22 in their top 64.

michaelm
04-11-2005, 02:09 AM
Historically Ourlads has put out one of the best pre-draft guides for NFL fans year-in-year-out. How do you call a mock laughable in March? Unless you can see the future all mocks are questionable and all will change right up to the real draft. I'm not rendering an opinion on this article, but they have a good track record despite what you or others think.

I will admit that I may have painted too broad of a stroke in my earlier post regarding ourlads mocks being laughable. When I have time I will go back and dig up some of the analysis by ourlads that I found fault with. Until such a time as I provide specific evidence, I will refrain from bashing...
I do have a question for you though, Vinny...

Would you agree with this statement...?
and I quote
"but they are paying a lot of upfront money for a linebacker who has no track record as a true playmaker."

Unless I have completely misread the situation, the Texans will pay around 2.5 mil for Greenwood's services in year one. IMO, that in no way qualifies for 'a lot of upfront money'.
To me, this one statement places DeLucia's entire analysis squarely in the 'in error' category. He bases the validity of the Greenwood signing on faulty logic, or actually on an untruth...
try as I might, I just cannot see where people are saying we over paid for Greenwood. He is an improvement to our LB corps, without doubt(at least to me). His contract is not unreasonable figuring that he will most likely never see the backloaded portion of his contract which is, admitedly, pretty substantial...

aj.
04-11-2005, 08:11 AM
Ourlads print draft guides have been second to none - at least the ones I've received the last two years. But since the new admin took over, some things have gone down hill. Their monthly newsletters - mainly their scouting reports from the Bowls and pre combine musings - have been terrible. That's not necessarily a reflection on the quality of their scouting, but more on who's composing/presenting the material to consumers. It's basically unreadable. We are less than two weeks from the draft and the 2005 Draft Guide still hasn't been published - at least I haven't received mine. In past years, we would get those in late March. I'm just about ready to pull the plug on those guys as a subscriber.

Their online depth charts remain their best thing going. Their top 64 seems reasonable and is a nice addition to their website. It's possible that under their new admin that they are putting more emphasis to their online products than their paper products. Shonka has been anything but enlightening during his radio interviews with John and Lance. In his last appearance they had to go to break because he was fumbling around looking for his notes while trying to answer a question on Texans draft needs. Now if you were going to be on a sports talk radio show in Houston, wouldn't it be smart to have your Texans draft cheat sheet handy?

I'm not aware of any special insight that DeLucia has on Greenwood so that falls into the category of one person's opinion as far as I'm concerned.

As far as paying Greenwood "a lot of upfront money," his cap figure this year is $1.94 million which is less than what Foreman was scheduled to make this season. Greenwood's base is 540k this year.

Next year, Greenwood's cap figure (base + pro rata s/b only) is $3.85 and the year after that, it's $4.7 which is still significantly less than what Sharper made in '03 and '04.

Contrary to opinions on this board and elsewhere, I don't think it's a stretch to think that Greenwood can equal Sharper's performance on the field. Aside from one sequence I recall in the Raiders game was Sharper a big "playmaker" last season? He was involved in a lot of plays and piled up tackling numbers because that's what inside linebackers do in the 3-4. He was durable and consistent and to his credit, he put himself in the right position to make those tackles, but I don't think it's as out of the question as some people think to see Greenwood equal Sharper's "playmaking" ability.

Obviously at some point, whether it was the '03 opener or elsewhere, Capers and Co. saw something they really liked in Greenwood. I think what they see is a smart player - a hard worker, a good tackler and a good pursue and cover guy who consistently puts himself in the right position to make plays. If he's faster/quicker than Sharper, as we are hearing, then that's a bonus.

If the season were to start today, Wong would be at the Buc and Greenwood at the Mac, and Peek at the weakside outside. But, things can and do change.

beerlover
04-11-2005, 08:37 AM
Ourlads print draft guides have been second to none - at least the ones I've received the last two years. But since the new admin took over, some things have gone down hill. Their monthly newsletters - mainly their scouting reports from the Bowls and pre combine musings - have been terrible. That's not necessarily a reflection on the quality of their scouting, but more on who's composing/presenting the material to consumers. It's basically unreadable. We are less than two weeks from the draft and the 2005 Draft Guide still hasn't been published - at least I haven't received mine. In past years, we would get those in late March. I'm just about ready to pull the plug on those guys as a subscriber.

should be arriving in the mail either today or tomorrow :)


Their online depth charts remain their best thing going. Their top 64 seems reasonable and is a nice addition to their website. It's possible that under their new admin that they are putting more emphasis to their online products than their paper products. Shonka has been anything but enlightening during his radio interviews with John and Lance. In his last appearance they had to go to break because he was fumbling around looking for his notes while trying to answer a question on Texans draft needs. Now if you were going to be on a sports talk radio show in Houston, wouldn't it be smart to have your Texans draft cheat sheet handy?

they also have a nice national forum to interact with fans of other teams & get direct answears from the experts, kinda like you and Vinny :heh:

http://ourlads.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=212


I'm not aware of any special insight that DeLucia has on Greenwood so that falls into the category of one person's opinion as far as I'm concerned.

As far as paying Greenwood "a lot of upfront money," his cap figure this year is $1.94 million which is less than what Foreman was scheduled to make this season. Greenwood's base is 540k this year.

Next year, Greenwood's cap figure (base + pro rata s/b only) is $3.85 and the year after that, it's $4.7 which is still significantly less than what Sharper made in '03 and '04.

Contrary to opinions on this board and elsewhere, I don't think it's a stretch to think that Greenwood can equal Sharper's performance on the field. Aside from one sequence I recall in the Raiders game was Sharper a big "playmaker" last season? He was involved in a lot of plays and piled up tackling numbers because that's what inside linebackers do in the 3-4. He was durable and consistent and to his credit, he put himself in the right position to make those tackles, but I don't think it's as out of the question as some people think to see Greenwood equal Sharper's "playmaking" ability.

Obviously at some point, whether it was the '03 opener or elsewhere, Capers and Co. saw something they really liked in Greenwood. I think what they see is a smart player - a hard worker, a good tackler and a good pursue and cover guy who consistently puts himself in the right position to make plays. If he's faster/quicker than Sharper, as we are hearing, then that's a bonus.

If the season were to start today, Wong would be at the Buc and Greenwood at the Mac, and Peek at the weakside outside. But, things can and do change.

The Texans linebackers should be set, it will be very interesting to see Peek come of the corner on Sundays and Greenwood stuffing the middle. But the Texans still need to strengthen the OL & this should be the focus of the draft. :twocents:

nunusguy
04-11-2005, 09:18 AM
As far as paying Greenwood "a lot of upfront money," his cap figure this year is $1.94 million which is less than what Foreman was scheduled to make this season. Greenwood's base is 540k this year.
Next year, Greenwood's cap figure (base + pro rata s/b only) is $3.85 and the year after that, it's $4.7 which is still significantly less than what Sharper made in '03 and '04.

Good point. We should not confuse aggregate contract compensation (of which bonus money is a part as I understand it) which is the basis for cap
amortization with "upfront money". Big Bob McNair has gobs and gobs of money and cash flow is really not an issue for him (or most NFL owners for
that matter). It's when a player's contract is prematurely terminated (for reference see Jamie Sharper, former LB with the Houston Texans), that the
gradual, straight-line amortization of this "upfront money" ceases and accelerates for amortization purposes into the current year. The write off or cap hit for the unamortized portion of the "upfront payments" is taken in the current year while most other components of the contract compensation(unguaranted) of the player who was cut escape amortization against team cap. Cap constraints are of course an issue for McNair and
all NFL owners.