PDA

View Full Version : Defensive players drafted under Smithiak era


VTexan
12-03-2010, 09:44 AM
Mario Williams

Demeco Ryans

Amobi Okoye

Fred Bennett

Brandon Harrison

Zac Diles

Antwaun Molden

Xavier Adibi

Frank Okam

Dominique Barber

Brian Cushing

Connor Barwin

glover quinn

Brice McCain

troy nolan

Kareem Jackson

Earl Mitchell

Daryl Sharpton

Sherrick McMannis




So you have a total of 19 defensive players taken over 5 drafts. 2 are pro-bowlers (mario, demeco) and then you have Brian Cushing (who we don't know what well get with him next year). 2 Average backup linebackers /starters and 1 average DT (Amobi). That leaves you with 13 other players that are not starting or shouldn't be)


Does Rick Smith deserve to stay as GM?

Texas T
12-03-2010, 09:48 AM
I don't know if I completely agree with your take.
Some of these "busts" have shown flashes of what they are capable of.
I really, really think it comes down to coaching, they are not being put in a position to make things happen.
I do believe this is the case-new DC-better product.

Blake
12-03-2010, 09:49 AM
You are counting 2 rookies and 2 2nd year pro's as busts? There is an unspoken rule that you should wait 3-4 years to make a decision on if a player is a bust or not.

TheCD
12-03-2010, 10:19 AM
glover quinn- bust

Kareem Jackson - bust

Does Rick Smith deserve to stay as GM?

To answer your question first: No, Smith does not deserve to stay. We have proverbially thrown everything at the wall and few guys have stuck. Maybe it's more coaching, but at the same time Smith's job is to draft guys that fit what the coaches want to do.


I will vehemently disagree with you on these two picks. Have they sucked something fierce at times? Yes. But they both have shown some good things. It's really unfair to judge a very young corner when there is no true safety help. Corners get beat all the time (yes, even...Darrell "Oh man my hammy magically hurts that's why I couldn't cover you Randy" Revis), but good safety play either covers up, minimizes, or even turns it into a positive with TO's.

I will definitely say I've got no idea what Kareem will give us, but to say he's a bust is absurd.

I think the light has come on for Glover, I really do. I'm seeing him put himself into good positions, and make good, smart plays on the ball. Chances are he will never be a shutdown corner. But that doesn't mean he can't be good and cover number one's very well in the future.

Doppelganger
12-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Mario Williams- Good pick.

Demeco Ryans- Good pick, the leader of our defense with a terrible supporting cast

Amobi Okoye- A bust for selection. He is a decent run stopper. He could be a solid rotational DT, but you expect much much more pout of a top first round pick

Fred Bennett- Bust

Brandon Harrison -Bust

Zac Diles - Average backup. Blows in coverage

Antwaun Molden - Bust

Xavier Adibi - see diles

Frank Okam - was a 5th round gamble. Not a bad gamble really.

Dominique Barber - Bust

Brian Cushing - Brilliant rookie season, MIA this year for the most part

Connor Barwin -2nd year player. Lets see

glover quinn- 2nd year player.

Brice McCain- 2nd year player

troy nolan - a 2nd year player who was a 7th round pick. He was injured all last year and is just now getting some PT. I don't think you can be a bust at a 7th round pick.

Kareem Jackson - the guy is barely a season in and he is a bust?! Cmon!

Earl Mitchell - a first year player.

Daryl Sharpton - a first year player

Sherrick McMannis - A first year player




Does Rick Smith deserve to stay as GM?

My differences are in your post in bold. I don't know how you can call rookies and 2nd year players busts. Is the reason they are not on the field Bush's issue, Kubiak, or theirs? I don't know, but very few players step right onto the field from college and are superstars or solid starters.

Does Smith deserve to go? I don't know. I want to know how much a role Kubiak and the D coordinators have had in draft picking before I render a decision.

nero THE zero
12-03-2010, 10:29 AM
Pretty skewed assessment.

Things like Diles being an "average back-up" and Mario being "debateable" is laughable. Diles is an average starter, he's a fantastic back-up and Mario is a 2-time All-Pro (in 4 seasons). Debateable? The only thing debateable about him is if he ends up as a really good NFL player or in the HOF.

ThaShark316
12-03-2010, 10:30 AM
1st and 2nd year players can't be busts unless they no longer play for your team.

Texan_Bill
12-03-2010, 10:32 AM
Sour grapes post?

IDEXAN
12-03-2010, 10:41 AM
(1)DeMeco is clearly the best defensive player Smith/Kubiak have drafted,
maybe not the most talented, but the best player and far and away the best value. We missed him last night, we've missed him every game he's been out since his injury.
(2)Mario is certainly very talented and worthy of being called NFL-starting calibre Dlineman, but his salary/cap is hard to justify given his inconsistancy.
(3)Drafting Okoye at #10 overall was a major mistake. End of story.
(4) We'll have to wait on the decision for Cushing given his outstanding rookie year that has been deeply compromised by all the events of 2010,
including inconclusive performanes on the field to this point.
(5) The wisdom of the Kareem Jackson pick in the first round of this Draft looks very dubious at this point. He's just a rookie, but he's got to really come around to justify anywhere near the position he was taken.
(6) Connor Barwin's injury this year simply makes an evaluation rating impossible.
(7) McShantis has not had anywhere near the opportunity Kareem has to prove himself, and its way to soon to grade him, but I'm thinking he's gonna be a better cover guy that KJ (faint praise I know), and did anybody notice the play he made last night with the tackle on the ball-carrier in the backfield ? That was impressive.

dream_team
12-03-2010, 10:46 AM
Guys drafted in the rounds 5-7 aren't expected to be stars. These guys are either projects or mainly for depth.

Zac Diles was a 7th round pick. Most guys picked in the 7th round don't even make the team! So the fact you called him an "average backup" already makes him a good pick.

The same goes for guys like Dominique Barber, Troy Nolan, Sherrick McMannis & Brice McCain. These guys were low draft picks and were mainly brought on for depth. And I think they fill that role nicely.

DexmanC
12-03-2010, 11:02 AM
I'd like to see how this defense looks with decent coaching. That
still has yet to happen under Kubiak.

burro
12-03-2010, 11:20 AM
Can anyone drafted outside the 2nd round of the draft really be called a bust? Let's not forget that one has to be hyped up before they fail to be a bust. This was not the case with hardly any of the players listed. I suppose you could make an argument for Okoye, but I still believe that he is just poorly coached and could be a really good player with the proper motivation.

VTexan
12-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Okay. Fair points, we DO need to wait a couple years before I clarify as busts. But I am mainly pointing out that they have not lived to any type of expectations when I say bust.

I know 5-7th round picks won't turn out to be superstars but good gm's make those picks be viable starters at a lot better probability.

The question I am trying to propose is people seem to think Rick Smith is safe but should he?

spurstexanstros
12-03-2010, 12:19 PM
It was a huge mistake drafting so many defesive linemen in the first and second round

Double Barrel
12-03-2010, 12:27 PM
I'm not going to say who is or is not a 'bust', but, I will say that it's not a very impressive list of defensive players from 5 years of drafts.

Maddict5
12-03-2010, 12:34 PM
I'd like to see how this defense looks with decent coaching. That
still has yet to happen under Kubiak.

were you away for most of last season?

Runner
12-03-2010, 12:44 PM
Mario and DeMeco were pre-Smith, so his record is even worse than it looks.

TimeKiller
12-03-2010, 12:46 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1574090&postcount=10

Started a thread about this a few weeks back. There aren't many good things to say when you lay it out like this. 2006 was a great draft but Smith wasn't involved. Last year's draft (The Cushing draft, if you will) seemed to produce a player or two. The years in between though...laughable.

Rey
12-03-2010, 12:51 PM
We should've kept Casserly.

Hervoyel
12-03-2010, 01:04 PM
No, it isn't pretty. This much effort should yield at least slightly better results.

Mario Williams- Productive by and large. Doesn't show up enough to be the dominant player we hoped he'd be at the first overall spot but he's got ability and produces enough to be considered a good pick.

Demeco Ryans- Very good pick who we almost didn't get. If the coaches had their way his pick would have been rolled up into a trade up for DeAngelo Williams so we're fortunate to have him.

Amobi Okoye- I would agree that he's slowly crawling toward "capable" but you can sign that same level of impact off the street and in free agency almost any year and we've proven it. Guys with better motors can be found easily and they always outperform Amobi. His also a victim here in a way. It's not like Okoye picked himself over Revis or Willis. The Texans picked him too high and Okoye has to try and live up to it. I just keep waiting for the light bulb to come on but I think he's one of those intelligent "nice" players the Texans take all the time. Those guys don't generally turn into beasts no matter how long you wait.

Fred Bennett- Just no evidence of football instincts at all. One good year can be viewed as a sign of ability or as a fluke occurrence once you see the bad that follows. If his rookie season meant anything we'd have at least seen flashes after that but he did nothing. Clearly a bad pick and good riddance.

Brandon Harrison - I swear I just draw a complete blank whenever I see this guys name. It's like "Does he play for us? Who is he again?"

Zac Diles - Depth at best anywhere other than here.

Antwaun Molden - A complete bust of a pick. When he isn't hurt he can be vaulted in the depth chart by a guy the Dolphins threw into the trash heap 11 days prior. He's a special teams commando who gets hurt at the drop of a hat (Any hat. Anywhere) so how does this guy stick around when Bennett got sent packing? How useful is a player who is this easily injured?

Xavier Adibi - See Antwuan Molden but throw in a little Zac Diles. Adibi's ability is equal to that last LB on your depth chart who is only there for special teams because hes got lousy instincts at his "position". You pray you never need to use him at LB but eventually you do and you're screwed. Thing about Adibi is that he isn't even a special teams standout. So what exactly keeps us from upgrading his roster spot again?

Frank Okam - Another soft, smart guy in the body of a beast but who will never be that big run stuffing force in the middle. It's just not in his nature. Good citizen, bad pick.

Dominique Barber - Can't unseat anybody in the worst secondary in the NFL, possibly in NFL history. that says it all.

Brian Cushing - Brilliant rookie season, MIA this year for a long time but he's looked more like Brian Cushing in the past few weeks. The Texans did a grave disservice to him by moving him to the middle following his suspension. They basically extended it and made him a non-factor when he came back instead of letting him return to his natural position. If he closes the season strong I'll feel a lot better about him than I do now.

Connor Barwin - Yes, the jury is still out but it's a crime that we had to go back out and draft Jason Babin again because our coach and GM were stupid enough to trade away a player they needed. I think he'll be fine if the ankle doesn't turn into a recurring problem.

Glover Quin - Our Champ Bailey, our Darrell Revis. The best we have thanks to our decision to purge all of our veterans prior to the season. Promising rookie season and flashes here and there in this year of terrible defense. Hopefully he doesn't just go completely off the map like Bennett did. I think he'll stick and he's got enough skills to be a starter opposite a real shut down corner. Pity we haven't had one of those since Aaron Glenn. If Okoye's pick had been used on Revis we'd be set right now.

Brice McCain - Immediatley passed in ability by Dolphin's castaway Jason Allen like Molden. I'm not sure what he's even doing out there half the time.

Troy Nolan - Can't consistently bust through the starting tandem of Pollard and Wilson so what's to get excited about here? Flashes but come on, if he was any good at all he'd have Wilson on the bench right now.

Kareem Jackson - Rookie in a no-win situation. I'm not going to dog him on this. I'm just going to say that he shouldn't be out there getting dominated every week like he has been. He should be playing behind a veteran and getting snaps at the nickel.

Earl Mitchell - No worse than any of our other tomato cans back there. Depth and special teams guy at best right now but he's a rookie so possible upside? It could happen.

Daryl Sharpton - Another rookie so he gets the rookie pass like all of them. Could be Diles, could be Diles with a better motor. Neither one really excites me though.

Sherrick McMannis - Rookie DB who I can't get upset at yet. Give him a year or two and if he stinks like all the rest of them have other than Quin then there'll be time enough to complain about him then.

BigBull17
12-03-2010, 01:13 PM
I'd like to see how this defense looks with decent coaching. That
still has yet to happen under Kubiak.

I agree. Our system is so a crappy that our players ability isn't utilized. QUin and Jackson actually have decent ball skills. They can bring down an INT. Our LBers are decent, though we need a new WILL lb.

Mr. White
12-03-2010, 01:28 PM
Does Rick Smith deserve to stay as GM?

No. And it's not because of who's been drafted.

Rick Smith is nothing but an extension of Gary Kubiak. The team needs a strong GM that knows how to run an organization.

I think that Casserly was supposed to be that guy, but hindsight is 20/20. Then they hired somebody in Smith that was the total opposite.

All I know for sure about his level of power is that he negotiates contracts...and he can't even do that right.

TimeKiller
12-03-2010, 02:47 PM
Well, when you look at the defense all we have are run stopper types. No coverage guys. Diles, Ryans, Cushing, Bentley run stoppers. Pollard run stopper. Wilson...uh...Quin/Jackson show coverage abillity but I wouldn't exactly call them coverage guys.

They desperately need to have some different talents mixed in. A coverage WLB for one, a speedy guy who may not make a million tackles but will blanket a TE and make safety valves a harder throw to complete. A coverage FS, the mystical ballhawk to compliment BP's aggression/hitting/run stopping/weak coverage. A true cover corner, not a safety in a CB's position.

fiasco west
12-03-2010, 03:03 PM
Okoye is a massive bust.

He is below average and some games you wouldn't even know he was out there. Also at the time we did not really have room for a pet project which he was, we barely get no push up the middle and Mario is pretty much our only pass rusher and people are always holding him up to some unrealistic standard that he should consistently get pressure.

Also Mario hardly ever gets credit but when the Texans are stopping the run he usually is a big part of it.

Kareem has been playing much better also as the year goes on and so has Quinn, our safeties suck at coverage and every CB outside of those two shouldn't even be in the NFL(okay Jason Allen i'll give him time) here is the thing i'm not sure anyone has realized here...everyone has stopped blaming Kareem and also QBs have thrown Quinns way and not Kareems...look at that, not a Kareem thread on the first page. Sounds like good coverage work to me.

80tothezone
12-04-2010, 11:37 PM
I refuse to believe that we have the least talented team in NFL history which is where our defense ranks right now. We might be the least talented this year in the NFL but all time? come on.... that being said I feel about the Texans front office like I feel about congress ... Fire em all and lets start over and hold people accountable for success.

BullNation4Life
12-05-2010, 01:37 AM
Mario Williams

Demeco Ryans

Amobi Okoye

Fred Bennett

Brandon Harrison

Zac Diles

Antwaun Molden

Xavier Adibi

Frank Okam

Dominique Barber

Brian Cushing

Connor Barwin

glover quinn

Brice McCain

troy nolan

Kareem Jackson

Earl Mitchell

Daryl Sharpton

Sherrick McMannis




So you have a total of 19 defensive players taken over 5 drafts. 2 are pro-bowlers (mario, demeco) and then you have Brian Cushing (who we don't know what well get with him next year). 2 Average backup linebackers /starters and 1 average DT (Amobi). That leaves you with 13 other players that are not starting or shouldn't be)


Does Rick Smith deserve to stay as GM?

3 are Pro Bowlers (Mario, DeMeco, Cushing), you forgot Cushing went to the Pro Bowl as a rookie BUT since Mario and Demeco were pre-Smith era, you really only have 1 DYOR and Pro Bowler in the Smith era, that being Cushing....

Also alot of those picks were picked for depth in that position, not to be starters at the time they were picked. They became starters either through another player being injured or released...

but I digress....

Lucky
12-05-2010, 07:10 AM
Considering the coaching these players have received, it's not possible for me to know who can and can't play from this group. That's a determination for the next regime to make.

I think (but I'm not sure) that some of the guys we thought were or could be great (Williams, Cushing), might end up as just good. And the guys we think stink (Kareem, Okoye) might be serviceable. It's really up to the evaluation of the impending organization and how these guys fit and are developed in the new system. As I've said before, there should be no sacred cows on this defense.

Lucky
12-05-2010, 07:15 AM
...everyone has stopped blaming Kareem and also QBs have thrown Quinns way and not Kareems...look at that, not a Kareem thread on the first page. Sounds like good coverage work to me.
That may be a function of the Texans rolling coverage to Jackson's side of the field, rather than any perceived improvement on the part of NFL offenses. Which actually makes sense to do. And begs the question, "Why didn't the Texans braintrust consider this earlier in the season?".

nero THE zero
12-05-2010, 07:51 AM
That may be a function of the Texans rolling coverage to Jackson's side of the field, rather than any perceived improvement on the part of NFL offenses. Which actually makes sense to do. And begs the question, "Why didn't the Texans braintrust consider this earlier in the season?".

He's also not playing as much. For whatever reason Kubiak decided to wait to limit his snaps until our season was sunk.

Maddict5
12-05-2010, 08:10 AM
He's also not playing as much. For whatever reason Kubiak decided to wait to limit his snaps until our season was sunk.

he did it as soon as there was a viable/better alternative aka jason allen

HJam72
12-05-2010, 08:27 AM
That pick Jason Allen made on Vick was a beautiful thing. I know it happened because Vick underthrew, but he stayed pretty tight with the receiver, found the ball, went for it like he had just as much right to it as the receiver (which he did), and and caught it like he was the intended receiver. No confusion about who to cover or whether he'd get help, no not looking for the ball, and no batting it away when he could have just caught it. You wouldn't think he played for Houston...

rmartin65
12-05-2010, 08:32 AM
That pick Jason Allen made on Vick was a beautiful thing. I know it happened because Vick underthrew, but he stayed pretty tight with the receiver, found the ball, went for it like he had just as much right to it as the receiver (which he did), and and caught it like he was the intended receiver. No confusion about who to cover or whether he'd get help, no not looking for the ball, and no batting it away when he could have just caught it. You wouldn't think he played for Houston...

He has not played for Houston very long. The coaching staff probably haven't ruined him yet.

kiwitexansfan
12-05-2010, 09:52 AM
Has anyone done this for other teams to see how many of their draft picks turn out to be players?

Of all the people drafted every draft there must be a fairly small percentage as a rule that become good contributors just based on the theory that the NFL has a limit on the number of players involved at any one time and the number coming in from college would be far higher than those leaving through retirement.

You can only consider Smith to be useless if he is doing far worse than the rest of the league is doing. Even then you have to consider factors like teams being more active in free agency, quality of the teams involved, age of rosters, retirements......

I think a broader perspective is needed, alas, I can't be bothered to provide it.

beerlover
12-05-2010, 10:23 AM
You must also consider those not drafted by Texans but who Rick Smith aquired for on the cheap like like Jason Allen, CB (who could be moved to FS next year) drafted in the 1st rd. #16 overall by Miami & Bernard Pollard 2nd rd. also 2006 with the 54th overall pick by Kansas City.

Plus the one he let get away Dunta Robinson drafted by Texans in 2004 10th overall who was made a fair offer but refused & left for a very expensive contract with Atlanta (probably should have franchised him). The emphasis has been on the defense since Rick & Gary came to Houston, very few picks offensively despite rebuilding the whole OL with only one first rounder, Duane Brown.

The record & stats show they were well justified going defense, in fact they need to lean towards defense at least one more draft then we can make a fair determination. If it doesn't work out clearly its the defensive scheme & not the players because they do have the majority of talent on defensive side :cool: