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IDEXAN
11-27-2010, 01:25 PM
"Animosity, hate, anger?'' said the Titans defensive end, who spent his first three NFL seasons in Houston. "Yeah, I feel all those things. My situation was just mishandled there. And it was bad.''
Someone needs to tell Babin that holding grudges isn't healthy, and in some cases unjustified.
*
It was the Texans, after all, that awarded a first round contract - a $7 million deal, including a signing bonus worth $3.625 million - to this relative unknown from the Mid-American Conference.
*
According to Wyatt's article, Babin and his parents- Michigan natives - still live in the Houston area during the off-season. Babin also owns several hunting ranches across Texas - which I recall reading about back in the day.


http://www.examiner.com/houston-texans-in-houston/bitter-babin-returns-to-reliant

ThaShark316
11-27-2010, 02:55 PM
Hgh/roids can turn you into a star.

Ask Babin, at 30.

Pollardized
11-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Hmmm............... You have a high round pick, who someone obviously saw as having big potential. You draft him, he pretty much flops, goes to a different team, performs way better than before, says he was mishandled in the previous situation, and he is somehow wrong???

Maybe this is just another indictment of the poor coaching the Texans have endured throughout their existance?

ThaShark316
11-27-2010, 03:19 PM
Hmmm............... You have a high round pick, who someone obviously saw as having big potential. You draft him, he pretty much flops, goes to a different team, performs way better than before, says he was mishandled in the previous situation, and he is somehow wrong???

Maybe this is just another indictment of the poor coaching the Texans have endured throughout their existance?

I guess the seahawks (holmgren days) and eagles are poorly coached too.

Man this dude is on something, period.

Pollardized
11-27-2010, 03:34 PM
maybe he finally has a coach who coaches to his strengths and puts him in a position to be successful. Coaching can make a huge difference in a player's performance. Michael Vick was a talented QB in Atlanta, who never performed the way he is performing this season. Is he more talented after his prison stay? Not likely. Maybe the fact that Andy Reid has implemented a game plan that utilizes Vick's strengths and avoids his weaknesses gets the results you see on the field. Think maybe Vick is better because he is more mature? Could be part of the equation; being the first at practice and last to leave may be a huge part of it. But couldn't that have been coached into him before? A good coach is a good motivator, a person who not only puts his players in the best position to win, but who also figures out what it is that makes each individual player tick. He then has to push the right buttons to get everything out of that player possible. Michael Vick is motivated by things differently than Matt Schaub is. Jason Babin is motivated differently than Jared Allen (taken 100 picks later in the same draft.)

Carr Bombed
11-27-2010, 03:37 PM
I guess the seahawks (holmgren days) and eagles are poorly coached too.

Man this dude is on something, period.

The Titans are notorious for picking up defensive lineman out of the trash heap and then turning them into pro bowlers. The freak was "THE FREAK" under Fisher....RoBaire Smith was one of the highly most sought after FAs when he left Tenn (he was a dud with us). Remember Kyle Vandon Bosch? Babin has always been a natural pass rusher....the Titans are just letting him do what he does best.

IDEXAN
11-27-2010, 04:18 PM
I guess the seahawks (holmgren days) and eagles are poorly coached too.
\I saw him in a couple games last year for the Eagles and he played well, he was getting some sacks. Don't know why he was released, maybe they wanted to go young but the Eagles are a team with considerable talent.
All I know is, we could sure use this guy.

Texan4Ever
11-27-2010, 04:26 PM
Can't believe I was rooting for this guy to turn his career around and get to a few Pro Bowls if possible. He could have said that things didn't work out in Houston but he loves the fans and people but no....Guess I had too high of an expectation from a Tack.


:fans:

Hervoyel
11-27-2010, 04:54 PM
I think Babin's right. He was having the best camp of his career back at his natural position and then we traded him for a scrub who isn't even in football today. Rick Smith was just flailing away wasting resources trying to address a problem we have to this very day with that trade.

Then we go draft Conner Barwin to replace Babin with. Classic Texans move.

Yankee_In_TX
11-27-2010, 04:56 PM
Hmmm............... You have a high round pick, who someone obviously saw as having big potential. You draft him, he pretty much flops, goes to a different team, performs way better than before, says he was mishandled in the previous situation, and he is somehow wrong???

Maybe this is just another indictment of the poor coaching the Texans have endured throughout their existance?

According to local media (including McClain; so........) he was a TOTAL slacker while he was here.

However, in light of recent coaching exposure, who knows. I woke up in the middle of the night to whatever show was on 610 (natioal) and I heard them talking about our DB's being so out of position and that our coaches should be fired.

Texan4Ever
11-27-2010, 05:10 PM
According to local media (including McClain; so........) he was a TOTAL slacker while he was here.

However, in light of recent coaching exposure, who knows. I woke up in the middle of the night to whatever show was on 610 (natioal) and I heard them talking about our DB's being so out of position and that our coaches should be fired.


I agree with the bolded portion. Check this out with Mack Brown http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5798694.

Players are a reflection of their coaches. Ever since the Texans were established we have been plagued with problems on the offensive line, defensive line, and secondary. We got rid of our HC and brought in Kubiak, got rid of our defensive line coach who went onto the same position at USC, changed offensive line schemes, and yet with all of this we're not where we're supposed to be (okay that sounded awful).

Yes, I understand its tough to get over the hump but bad coaching is something that has plagued our football franchise since day one, which is why we dissapoint ourselves every year.

With regards to DBs being out-of-position, KJ should know better. He played the position at Bama' so its not like its new for him. At the very least he should speak up and tell his coach that his method is not working and he is going to play the way he feels comfortable with and make plays as best as possible.

As much as we lack quality coaching, we lack players who aren't afraid to stand up and tell a coach that his methods aren't working. Mike Singletary used to lead his defense like Manning leads the Colt offense and often times told the coach that things aren't working so he's going to do things his way and he did. Until we get guys who step up and lead on the field, we ain't going nowhere.

Just my .02 cents...

Marcus
11-27-2010, 05:11 PM
maybe he finally has a coach who coaches to his strengths and puts him in a position to be successful. Coaching can make a huge difference in a player's performance. Michael Vick was a talented QB in Atlanta, who never performed the way he is performing this season. Is he more talented after his prison stay? Not likely. Maybe the fact that Andy Reid has implemented a game plan that utilizes Vick's strengths and avoids his weaknesses gets the results you see on the field. Think maybe Vick is better because he is more mature? Could be part of the equation; being the first at practice and last to leave may be a huge part of it. But couldn't that have been coached into him before? A good coach is a good motivator, a person who not only puts his players in the best position to win, but who also figures out what it is that makes each individual player tick. He then has to push the right buttons to get everything out of that player possible. Michael Vick is motivated by things differently than Matt Schaub is. Jason Babin is motivated differently than Jared Allen (taken 100 picks later in the same draft.)

Oh, spare me the Michael Vick shit with this "he finally got some good coaching" nonsense.

Michael Vick has decided to devote his heart to football instead of killing dogs. I think a couple of years in prison pushed a few buttons more than any football coach did.

IDEXAN
11-27-2010, 05:11 PM
According to local media (including McClain; so........) he was a TOTAL slacker while he was here.

However, in light of recent coaching exposure, who knows. I woke up in the middle of the night to whatever show was on 610 (natioal) and I heard them talking about our DB's being so out of position and that our coaches should be fired.
My undersanding of "slacker" is that it's a term that describes/defines someone who fails to make a satisfactory effort ? But my memory of Babin
is just the opposite - a guy that played with a "real motor". Maybe I'm wrong ?
And you're saying you heard Babin on the radio critiquing our coachs performance of coaching our DBs ?

Lucky
11-27-2010, 05:24 PM
I used to tailgate next to Babin's family in the green lot. I met them while wearing a custom Battle Red Babin jersey. His dad (Jim I think) once complained that the Texans doctors allowed Jason to play in a preseason game when he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder. That started the hard feelings, I believe.

I liked them and they loved my shrimp brochettes. The mom was a hoot and not bad looking. And I know that athletes have hot wives. But Jason's wife, and her friends, were super nova hot. I thought Babin got a raw deal here, but that comes from a guy who still has his Babin throwback jersey.

texanhead08
11-27-2010, 05:26 PM
My undersanding of "slacker" is that it's a term that describes/defines someone who fails to make a satisfactory effort ? But my memory of Babin
is just the opposite - a guy that played with a "real motor". Maybe I'm wrong ?
And you're saying you heard Babin on the radio critiquing our coachs performance of coaching our DBs ?


Maybe they were talking about how he prepared during the week. There aren't too many guys that just dog it on game days. The great ones are the ones who treat film study and practice serious as well.

Pollardized
11-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Oh, spare me the Michael Vick shit with this "he finally got some good coaching" nonsense.

Michael Vick has decided to devote his heart to football instead of killing dogs. I think a couple of years in prison pushed a few buttons more than any football coach did.

You think coaching has absolutely nothing to do with his performance? How does McNabb look this year in a Redskins uniform? Good coaching goes along way. Yes Vick was humbled by prison. I worked for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, inside a prison, I have seen people changed by the experience. I've also seen people go out worse than they came in.

Good coaches have a knack for pushing the right buttons and getting that little something extra from a player. They also coach to the player's strength. Babin, like others, may have suffered from poor coaching in the Texans' system. There is no other reasonable explanation for our DB's to be that bad. The coaches put them in bad positions and any weakness is exposed. Do you really think Benard Pollard is that horrible of a safety, after the transformation he sparked last year? He is weak in coverage, and with young DB's being put in bad positions his weakness is exposed.

You know what I think Rex Ryan meant when he was talking about KJax a few weeks ago? He meant "that guy would be a great player in the NFL someday (if he had the proper coaching)".

dtran04
11-27-2010, 05:44 PM
If anything, he was referring to the Capers regime. He probably wasn't too happy playing a read and react LB, even though he was actually decent at it. The fans hated him since he wasn't Merriman or Ware.

Texecutioner
11-27-2010, 05:49 PM
Babin was never a consistent productive player here. Of course, we never have had a good DC here in Texans history, so that also plays a part in that.

I used to hear from a buddy of mine that knew some of Babin's best friends and I used to hear that Babin used cocaine a lot and from other stuff I heard he never seemed like a dedicated player at a young age.

If he wants to trash this administration at Texansville though, he'll need to take a number and get to the back of the line.

Pollardized
11-27-2010, 05:51 PM
Tex, what number would he get, if he took one and how long is the line?

Texecutioner
11-27-2010, 06:00 PM
Tex, what number would he get, if he took one and how long is the line?

It would definitely be in the 5 digits. Lol!

The line would probably extend from Reliant at Kirby all the way down to Galveston.

Showtime100
11-27-2010, 06:18 PM
"Animosity, hate, anger?'' said the Titans defensive end, who spent his first three NFL seasons in Houston. "Yeah, I feel all those things. My situation was just mishandled there. And it was bad.''

It was the Texans, after all, that awarded a first round contract - a $7 million deal, including a signing bonus worth $3.625 million - to this relative unknown from the Mid-American Conference.

I used to tailgate next to Babin's family in the green lot. I met them while wearing a custom Battle Red Babin jersey. His dad (Jim I think) once complained that the Texans doctors allowed Jason to play in a preseason game when he couldn't lift his arm above his shoulder. That started the hard feelings, I believe.

I liked them and they loved my shrimp brochettes. The mom was a hoot and not bad looking. And I know that athletes have hot wives. But Jason's wife, and her friends, were super nova hot. I thought Babin got a raw deal here, but that comes from a guy who still has his Babin throwback jersey.

I have no doubt that was a cool experience to talk with his family and I'm sure they were very nice. But when I read the above contract terms and subsequent information, however, my thought right off the bat was this guy doesn't know how good he had it here and has it now.

I saw a retro interview with Nolan Ryan on one of those Roy Firestone shows on ESPNClassic and he was talking about the year he was servicing air conditioners during the off season to keep food on the table and during the '72 strike he almost quit baseball altogether so he could feed little Reid.

Maybe I'm so old I know of those days too well and can't wrap my mind around these guys thinking they have problems.

Point is give this guy an hourly wage, even a good one, and watch him turn white when he sees what he has to live on while coming home dead tired and maybe even unfulfilled day after day.

gary
11-27-2010, 06:19 PM
I think Jeff might have a lot to do with how Jason is playing right now. On the other hand maybe it was the coaching here or that he is just was not motivated we'll never know but I do not believe being bitter at anyone serves a purpose once it is too late.

Runner
11-27-2010, 06:22 PM
I figure former players know more about the Texans than most. Many sing a similar tune: the Texans corporate culture isn't conducive to building a winning program. Who knew?

Lucky
11-27-2010, 06:33 PM
Point is give this guy an hourly wage, even a good one, and watch him turn white when he sees what he has to live on while coming home dead tired and maybe even unfulfilled day after day.
Players, coaches, team executives, and owners live in a different world than we do. That's a given. When reading an interview with someone in the sports or entertainment industry, you have to see their issues as relative to themselves. Because none of it relates to us.

steelbtexan
11-27-2010, 07:27 PM
I think Babin's right. He was having the best camp of his career back at his natural position and then we traded him for a scrub who isn't even in football today. Rick Smith was just flailing away wasting resources trying to address a problem we have to this very day with that trade.

Then we go draft Conner Barwin to replace Babin with. Classic Texans move.

Classic Texans

The bad thing is you will never have a good team with those kinda moves. You're always chasing the rabbitt. (If you know what I mean) Please GOD let their be change. LOL

Showtime100
11-27-2010, 07:35 PM
Players, coaches, team executives, and owners live in a different world than we do. That's a given. When reading an interview with someone in the sports or entertainment industry, you have to see their issues as relative to themselves. Because none of it relates to us.

I left out the part where Ryan said (and I agreed) that players need a taste of that because (my term) they're so full of it sometimes. As far as seeing it through their eyes, I think the athletes could try a bit of that as well.

thunderkyss
11-27-2010, 08:08 PM
You think coaching has absolutely nothing to do with his performance?

Slow down... nobody is saying coaching had nothing to do with it. But to think the Texans, the Seahawks, the Eagles (the same guys coaching Vick) screwed the pooch & the Titans (the same team coaching Young) got it right.

Surely coaching is part of it, but getting his head out of his arse probably played an even bigger role.

The thing about Babin, that points to our coaches ineptitude, is that he's lost a lot of weight, & is in better shape than I've ever seen him Well, Amobi is losing weight, Slaton lost some weight.... several players are slimming, or need to slim up. Demeco....

The Texans, imho was trying to get everyone to a certain weight, & didn't appear to take body fat into account. Babin was pudgy here, so was Slaton in 2009, Amobi in 2009...

Bottom line, coaching was part of it..... but Babin's attitude was probably the biggest part of it.

disaacks3
11-27-2010, 08:12 PM
I guess the seahawks (holmgren days) and eagles are poorly coached too.

Man this dude is on something, period.

That's where I went when I read the first line. Just because Jeff Fisher manages to get some production out of you doesn't mean you were "held back" at several previous stops. Anybody using this as an excuse to hate on the Texans needs to look at what he did during stop #2.

thunderkyss
11-27-2010, 08:17 PM
I figure former players know more about the Texans than most. Many sing a similar tune: the Texans corporate culture isn't conducive to building a winning program. Who knew?

I would like to have heard more.... more detail. I imagine he's talking about some of the favortism shown to David Carr & Travis Johnson who were basically given free rides here. I always thought he was a high effort guy, just not a LB. I was excited to see him get to play DE here, thought he would justify his draft spot. I didn't recall the thing about the shoulder, & was disappointed when he was traded.

infantrycak
11-27-2010, 08:22 PM
All I know was I spent 4 hours with the dude in a business setting one day and he was a complete a-hole.

Wish he had at least brought his hot wife and her hot friends along that Lucky enjoyed.

gary
11-27-2010, 08:25 PM
All I know was I spent 4 hours with the dude in a business setting one day and he was a complete a-hole.

Wish he had at least brought his hot wife and her hot friends along that Lucky enjoyed.
Really? Wow.

thunderkyss
11-27-2010, 08:25 PM
All I know was I spent 4 hours with the dude in a business setting one day and he was a complete a-hole.

Wish he had at least brought his hot wife and her hot friends along that Lucky enjoyed.

You have to consider the company he was with.



It's all relative.

infantrycak
11-27-2010, 08:27 PM
You have to consider the company he was with.



It's all relative.

True I do bring out the worst in people. But his worst was more a-hole than 99% of people I piss off.

Texan_Bill
11-27-2010, 08:32 PM
Is he bitter with Seattle, KC and Philly too?? 'Cause he sucked there as well.

steelbtexan
11-27-2010, 09:08 PM
True I do bring out the worst in people. But his worst was more a-hole than 99% of people I piss off.

Guys treat lawyers like a-holes in business meetings? shocker

LOL

I wouldn't have the patience to deal with all of the crap you have to deal with.

steelbtexan
11-27-2010, 09:14 PM
Is he bitter with Seattle, KC and Philly too?? 'Cause he sucked there as well.

He should walk up and kiss McNair's shoes after all of the $$$ he stole from McNair.

overtrained
11-27-2010, 09:43 PM
This guy was the biggest mistake of the Casserley/Capers era, which is saying a ton. He has nothing to be bitter about except all those stupid tattoos.

Marcus
11-27-2010, 09:53 PM
This guy was the biggest mistake of the Casserley/Capers era, which is saying a ton. He has nothing to be bitter about except all those stupid tattoos.

LOL. You're about to catch hell with that post.

Signed,

David Carr

Showtime100
11-27-2010, 09:54 PM
LOL. You're about to catch hell with that post.

Signed,

David Carr

I thought the same thing...lol. INCOMING!

Carr Bombed
11-27-2010, 09:56 PM
LOL. You're about to catch hell with that post.

Signed,

David Carr

Co-signed Tony Hollings...

Jason Babin was not the worst draft pick in franchise history. He's a decent player, we just tried to make him something he wasn't...which was a stand up player.

spurstexanstros
11-27-2010, 10:02 PM
ok how many sacks did he get in three years here...(2?)..and there's your sign Babin.

overtrained
11-27-2010, 10:17 PM
LOL. You're about to catch hell with that post.

Signed,

David Carr

It's hard to rank the number of stupid decisions by the past regime but the Babin pick was just terrible. Carr was a bust but he was a reasonable draft pick at the time. It seems like everyone at that time had either Carr or Peppers ranked as the top prospect in that draft. Re-signing him was another story. We gave up a 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick to get in position to draft Babin. The Buchanon trade has to be up there too.

IDEXAN
11-27-2010, 10:55 PM
I figure former players know more about the Texans than most. Many sing a similar tune: the Texans corporate culture isn't conducive to building a winning program. Who knew?
You sound like you've got a real axe to grind with the Texans organization ?
Why don't you just step up and say what's on your mind instead of making
indirect references like this "similar tune" many former Texans want to sing ?

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 11:30 PM
Who gives a hoot about Jason Babin and what he has to say?!?!? C'mon now, folks... get a grip. It's Jason Babin. He's about to get Cushing'ed by the NFL.

houstonspartan
11-28-2010, 01:41 AM
You sound like you've got a real axe to grind with the Texans organization ?
Why don't you just step up and say what's on your mind instead of making
indirect references like this "similar tune" many former Texans want to sing ?

Ok, I'll say it for him: The Texans suck.

There.

b0ng
11-28-2010, 03:42 AM
Jason Babin is trash. The fact it's taken him 7 years to amount to anything in the league makes me think this is his career arc, and certainly not his starting point.

Who gives a shit if the fake Joey Fatone is talking crap about the Texans coaching from 5 years ago. It took him at least that much time to actually make an impact on a team. Go him.

IDEXAN
11-28-2010, 08:19 AM
All I know was I spent 4 hours with the dude in a business setting one day and he was a complete a-hole.


Somehow I'm thinking we're talking about a lawsuit here ? But isn't that how that litigation thing works, everybodys an a-hole with the defendants & plaintiffs lawyers being the biggest a-holes in the room ?

infantrycak
11-28-2010, 10:06 AM
You sound like you've got a real axe to grind with the Texans organization ?
Why don't you just step up and say what's on your mind instead of making
indirect references like this "similar tune" many former Texans want to sing ?

Runner has known a number of Texans players personally so he is talking from experience.

Somehow I'm thinking we're talking about a lawsuit here ? But isn't that how that litigation thing works, everybodys an a-hole with the defendants & plaintiffs lawyers being the biggest a-holes in the room ?

In a realm of a-holes, Babin stands out and stands out way above the lawyers involved. His own lawyer would admit that. He spent most of his day trying to make Babin own up to his responsibility.

IDEXAN
11-28-2010, 11:07 AM
Runner has known a number of Texans players personally so he is talking from experience.



In a realm of a-holes, Babin stands out and stands out way above the lawyers involved. His own lawyer would admit that. He spent most of his day trying to make Babin own up to his responsibility.
You speak of this "Runner" guy as though you're in awe of him, and everybody has to tippy-toe around him else they risk provoking his ire ? If he's that formidable, surely he can speak up for himself ? I'd just like to hear specifcs here rather than some vague implication about what a chicken-shVV outfit the Texans are when it comes to how they treat their players ?
And about your Babin story, I confess you got me man. I'm totally intrigued ?
Babin was a bigger a-hole than the legal guys ? You can't just flip that out there and leave us in suspence ? If so, Babin may be an a-hole for the ages but you're a tease for the ages. More info, please.

texan279
11-28-2010, 11:21 AM
Babin should worry about what is going in tackville and all the problems they have going on right now instead of worrying about how the old Texan regime treated him.

Wolf
11-28-2010, 11:22 AM
You speak of this "Runner" guy as though you're in awe of him, and everybody has to tippy-toe around him else they risk provoking his ire ? If he's that formidable, surely he can speak up for himself ? I'd just like to hear specifcs here rather than some vague implication about what a chicken-shVV outfit the Texans are when it comes to how they treat their players ?


huh? How the Heck do you pull that out from 'Caks statement?

burro
11-28-2010, 11:25 AM
It seems that a lot of players come here are "mishandled" (read poorly utilized by the game plan) and go on to other teams to become good players, anybody remember Jabar Gaffney? Hell even someone such as P-burnt has been enormously better off outside of Houston. In retrospect, maybe Casserly didn't suck as much as we all thought he did.

NitroGSXR
11-28-2010, 11:32 AM
huh? How the Heck do you pull that out from 'Caks statement?

I'd like to see idexan get into a war of words with Runner. I'd plunk down good money on the runnng man.

texan279
11-28-2010, 11:43 AM
It seems that a lot of players come here are "mishandled" (read poorly utilized by the game plan) and go on to other teams to become good players, anybody remember Jabar Gaffney? Hell even someone such as P-burnt has been enormously better off outside of Houston. In retrospect, maybe Casserly didn't suck as much as we all thought he did.

I agree to an extent. When we traded up to draft Babin and then put him at as a 3-4 OLB I was like WTF????? But he did go to Seattle, Philly, and Kansas City where he had limited success. In his first three seasons he averaged like a little over 4 sacks and 32 tackles a season. In his 3 seasons after leaving Houston he never had more than 26 tackles and 2.5 sacks in a season. And now in tackland for some reason he is blowing up. Is it coaching or maybe something else?

Runner
11-28-2010, 02:14 PM
huh? How the Heck do you pull that out from 'Caks statement?

Who has ever tippy toed around me? I must have missed it.

JB
11-28-2010, 02:24 PM
Who has ever tippy toed around me? I must have missed it.

Well, ya know, we just tippy toe around the tippy toe thing so you don't catch on. You have us all intimidated with that User Name and avatar.

Wolf
11-28-2010, 02:28 PM
Well, ya know, we just tippy toe around the tippy toe thing so you don't catch on. You have us all intimidated with that User Name and avatar.

not sure you were around when Runner had the other avatar. those were some intimidating running shoes

:ahhaha:

Runner
11-28-2010, 03:01 PM
You sound like you've got a real axe to grind with the Texans organization ?
Why don't you just step up and say what's on your mind instead of making
indirect references like this "similar tune" many former Texans want to sing ?

I've always thought I've been clear with my criticism of the Texans corporate culture. To summarize, then.

1) The Texans have place marketing above performance. The easiest example of this is David Carr. He was made the golden boy by decree and he was protected from the organization for years because he was the face of the franchise. This continued last year with Kris Brown. Right now the Texans would rather market the game day experience with a stable coaching staff rather than make changes to win.

2) Playing time and roster moves are often based on draft position and salary rather than performance. The defensive line's history gives examples of this, as does Carr and others.

3) The organization is too slow to make necessary changes and when situations get out of control. A big driver for going from 7-9 to 2-14 was political squabbles between the front office and the coaching staff. Some players were grouped as "Capers" guys, others as "Casserly" guys. Playing time decisions were based on this rather than ability. Since the GM didn't have the authority to affect the coaches, this problem falls into McNair's lap. He was where the lines of authority met.

4) Kubiak came in and he also made roster decisions based on factors other than ability on the field. A new broom sweeps clean, but he cut a little too deep. There was a division in his first locker room between new and old, which is to be expected, but it went farther than needed. His decisions to bring in players he (or Sherman) had coached before who were on their last legs hurt this team in ways that are still felt today. One of the reasons the Texans are a "young" team is that he cut existing younger players with room for growth to acquire people like Flanagan, Bedell (iirc), and to a lesser extent Green who at least had occasional production. When the other guys were "one year and done", they left a vacuum behind them because the Texans younger talent was cut to roster them. They hurt the team when they couldn't perform Kubiak's first year, and the missed opportunity to develop younger players still hurts the team today.

5) Right now the Texans are still too slow to make change. I heard from a player toward the end of Kubiak's second season that "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". I think he knew that Kubiak's motivation fired them up, but it wouldn't be enough if his coaching didn't produce tangible results. Year three didn't get them there, and an even bigger blown opportunity in year four was piled on top of that. Kubiak was rewarded with an extension. This is just another example of the Texans making decision based on something other than performance.

6) Now don't get me wrong abut point number five. I've heard that the Texans players like Kubiak and think he is a good leader. They just don't have the confidence in him (based on his performance) that he can be that head coach that always fields a team that should win. Like him or not, I think they have no confidence that they will win when they take the field.

7) I'm not a fan of Rick Smith either. He is praised for not doing "bad contracts", but I think he fails in getting "good" contracts or extensions signed. There is frequently an impasse blamed on the players, but Smith is the common factor.

The corporate culture consistently supports mediocrity, does not make decisions based on performance, and values image over winning. Players that leave this team sometimes point out some facets of this, and they are usually pilloried as whiners rather than having their opinions considered.

Little of this is new from me; I'm not sure why you consider my position vague or veiled.

Mr. White
11-28-2010, 06:34 PM
Babin pretty much made an ass of himself the whole game.

Every time he made a tackle, he kept waving his arms at the crowd like he wanted them to make noise.....like he's been watching too much pro wrestling lately.

There were a few boos, but he never amounted to enough in Houston to draw much of a reaction.

texan279
11-28-2010, 06:54 PM
Babin pretty much made an ass of himself the whole game.

Every time he made a tackle, he kept waving his arms at the crowd like he wanted them to make noise.....like he's been watching too much pro wrestling lately.

There were a few boos, but he never amounted to enough in Houston to draw much of a reaction.

I was thinking the same thing. I know after they went down 17-0 he had a sack and a tackle for a short loss I believe and both times he got up like he was celebrating or playing to the crowd. Both times I thought to myself your team is down 3 scores you ass. lol

Lucky
11-28-2010, 08:33 PM
I should have Runner's post framed.

I could hang it in the Texans' lunch room...right next to the Mission Statement.

hradhak
11-28-2010, 09:43 PM
Babin is the ultimate douche. I don't think he really ever played up to his potential until getting to the Titans. He can blame his problems on everyone else all day long, but it really was on him. He's lucky, most guys wouldn't have lasted this long in the league.

Yankee_In_TX
11-28-2010, 10:38 PM
I should have Runner's post framed.

I could hang it in the Texans' lunch room...right next to the Mission Statement.

LOL, but you'd have to shorten it to whatever the written attention span of an NFL player is.

El Tejano
11-28-2010, 10:48 PM
At the end of the day he's still Jason Babin - first round bust.

FirstTexansFan
11-28-2010, 10:52 PM
I don't know, Runner's post still seems a bit vague :kitten:

IDEXAN
11-29-2010, 07:02 AM
Babin is the ultimate douche. I don't think he really ever played up to his potential until getting to the Titans. He can blame his problems on everyone else all day long, but it really was on him. He's lucky, most guys wouldn't have lasted this long in the league.
"(on his family tailgating before the game with Houston Texans gear on and how he felt about that) “They might be disowned by tomorrow.”
http://www.titansonline.com/news/article-1/Titans-Texans-Postgame-Quotes/d6e87be6-a302-4945-a596-1c5a17a53f30
Looks like reports are true that Babin & family still reside in Houston and even though he's moved on from the Texans, surprisingly his family hasn't as they seem to still be supporting them even on Sundays when they're playing Babins latest employer.
But about your remark about Babin being the ultimate "douche", I couldn't disagree more. Rather it would seem he's the ultimate survivor as at the ripe ole NFL age of 30 and after bouncing around multiple teams, he's on the verge of a double-digit sack season and possibly a trip to the Pro-Bowl. I only wish we had the guy on our team this year.

281
11-29-2010, 07:06 AM
i really hate to say this, but he absolutely DESTROYED winston on one play... it was ugly.

IDEXAN
11-29-2010, 07:08 AM
I've always thought I've been clear with my criticism of the Texans corporate culture. To summarize, then.

1) The Texans have place marketing above performance. The easiest example of this is David Carr. He was made the golden boy by decree and he was protected from the organization for years because he was the face of the franchise. This continued last year with Kris Brown. Right now the Texans would rather market the game day experience with a stable coaching staff rather than make changes to win.

2) Playing time and roster moves are often based on draft position and salary rather than performance. The defensive line's history gives examples of this, as does Carr and others.

3) The organization is too slow to make necessary changes and when situations get out of control. A big driver for going from 7-9 to 2-14 was political squabbles between the front office and the coaching staff. Some players were grouped as "Capers" guys, others as "Casserly" guys. Playing time decisions were based on this rather than ability. Since the GM didn't have the authority to affect the coaches, this problem falls into McNair's lap. He was where the lines of authority met.

4) Kubiak came in and he also made roster decisions based on factors other than ability on the field. A new broom sweeps clean, but he cut a little too deep. There was a division in his first locker room between new and old, which is to be expected, but it went farther than needed. His decisions to bring in players he (or Sherman) had coached before who were on their last legs hurt this team in ways that are still felt today. One of the reasons the Texans are a "young" team is that he cut existing younger players with room for growth to acquire people like Flanagan, Bedell (iirc), and to a lesser extent Green who at least had occasional production. When the other guys were "one year and done", they left a vacuum behind them because the Texans younger talent was cut to roster them. They hurt the team when they couldn't perform Kubiak's first year, and the missed opportunity to develop younger players still hurts the team today.

5) Right now the Texans are still too slow to make change. I heard from a player toward the end of Kubiak's second season that "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". I think he knew that Kubiak's motivation fired them up, but it wouldn't be enough if his coaching didn't produce tangible results. Year three didn't get them there, and an even bigger blown opportunity in year four was piled on top of that. Kubiak was rewarded with an extension. This is just another example of the Texans making decision based on something other than performance.

6) Now don't get me wrong abut point number five. I've heard that the Texans players like Kubiak and think he is a good leader. They just don't have the confidence in him (based on his performance) that he can be that head coach that always fields a team that should win. Like him or not, I think they have no confidence that they will win when they take the field.

7) I'm not a fan of Rick Smith either. He is praised for not doing "bad contracts", but I think he fails in getting "good" contracts or extensions signed. There is frequently an impasse blamed on the players, but Smith is the common factor.

The corporate culture consistently supports mediocrity, does not make decisions based on performance, and values image over winning. Players that leave this team sometimes point out some facets of this, and they are usually pilloried as whiners rather than having their opinions considered.

Little of this is new from me; I'm not sure why you consider my position vague or veiled.

Great reply, I appreciate you taking the time to explain where you're coming from. I agree with much of it, and if reports by others are true that you are
close personally with several of the Texans players (both present & past), we can all especially learn more about the team from these remarks.

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 07:38 AM
I've always thought I've been clear with my criticism of the Texans corporate culture. To summarize, then.

1) The Texans have place marketing above performance. The easiest example of this is David Carr. He was made the golden boy by decree and he was protected from the organization for years because he was the face of the franchise. This continued last year with Kris Brown. Right now the Texans would rather market the game day experience with a stable coaching staff rather than make changes to win.

2) Playing time and roster moves are often based on draft position and salary rather than performance. The defensive line's history gives examples of this, as does Carr and others.

3) The organization is too slow to make necessary changes and when situations get out of control. A big driver for going from 7-9 to 2-14 was political squabbles between the front office and the coaching staff. Some players were grouped as "Capers" guys, others as "Casserly" guys. Playing time decisions were based on this rather than ability. Since the GM didn't have the authority to affect the coaches, this problem falls into McNair's lap. He was where the lines of authority met.

4) Kubiak came in and he also made roster decisions based on factors other than ability on the field. A new broom sweeps clean, but he cut a little too deep. There was a division in his first locker room between new and old, which is to be expected, but it went farther than needed. His decisions to bring in players he (or Sherman) had coached before who were on their last legs hurt this team in ways that are still felt today. One of the reasons the Texans are a "young" team is that he cut existing younger players with room for growth to acquire people like Flanagan, Bedell (iirc), and to a lesser extent Green who at least had occasional production. When the other guys were "one year and done", they left a vacuum behind them because the Texans younger talent was cut to roster them. They hurt the team when they couldn't perform Kubiak's first year, and the missed opportunity to develop younger players still hurts the team today.

5) Right now the Texans are still too slow to make change. I heard from a player toward the end of Kubiak's second season that "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". I think he knew that Kubiak's motivation fired them up, but it wouldn't be enough if his coaching didn't produce tangible results. Year three didn't get them there, and an even bigger blown opportunity in year four was piled on top of that. Kubiak was rewarded with an extension. This is just another example of the Texans making decision based on something other than performance.

6) Now don't get me wrong abut point number five. I've heard that the Texans players like Kubiak and think he is a good leader. They just don't have the confidence in him (based on his performance) that he can be that head coach that always fields a team that should win. Like him or not, I think they have no confidence that they will win when they take the field.

7) I'm not a fan of Rick Smith either. He is praised for not doing "bad contracts", but I think he fails in getting "good" contracts or extensions signed. There is frequently an impasse blamed on the players, but Smith is the common factor.

The corporate culture consistently supports mediocrity, does not make decisions based on performance, and values image over winning. Players that leave this team sometimes point out some facets of this, and they are usually pilloried as whiners rather than having their opinions considered.

Little of this is new from me; I'm not sure why you consider my position vague or veiled.


Whether you've known or still know any players is immaterial. Your entire post is conjecture at best and we won't get into what it is at worst. You're using an appeal to authority logic fault and while most people will swallow it whole, there are a few freethinkers who refuse to accept hearsay as gospel. ;)

PS - #5 "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". Any player that has that attitude is a loser and not someone we need on the team. I seriously doubt any player said that, but then again, you can fall back on the appeal to authority...

Pantherstang84
11-29-2010, 07:45 AM
Whether you've known or still know any players is immaterial. Your entire post is conjecture at best and we won't get into what it is at worst. You're using an appeal to authority logic fault and while most people will swallow it whole, there are a few freethinkers who refuse to accept hearsay as gospel. ;)

PS - #5 "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". Any player that has that attitude is a loser and not someone we need on the team. I seriously doubt any player said that, but then again, you can fall back on the appeal to authority...

Kubes, is that you?

Runner
11-29-2010, 08:20 AM
Great reply, I appreciate you taking the time to explain where you're coming from. I agree with much of it, and if reports by others are true that you are
close personally with several of the Texans players (both present & past), we can all especially learn more about the team from these remarks.

So as not to misrepresent, i don't know all that many players, and most not very close. However, I've heard enough to fill in blanks that are left in the conjecture and rumor I see on this board. Enough to shape my opinion, anyway.

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 08:23 AM
So as not to misrepresent, i don't know all that many players, and most not very close. However, I've heard enough to fill in blanks that are left in the conjecture and rumor I see on this board. Enough to shape my opinion, anyway.


Opinions are what we're all here for so no problem with that. I think the real issue are those that take your opinion as coming from an authoritative source.

Runner
11-29-2010, 08:38 AM
Whether you've known or still know any players is immaterial. Your entire post is conjecture at best and we won't get into what it is at worst. You're using an appeal to authority logic fault and while most people will swallow it whole, there are a few freethinkers who refuse to accept hearsay as gospel. ;)

PS - #5 "if he doesn't get us over the hump next year, he isn't going to get us there". Any player that has that attitude is a loser and not someone we need on the team. I seriously doubt any player said that, but then again, you can fall back on the appeal to authority...

I don't expect people to swallow anything whole. Someone asked me to clarify my opinion and I did. If you want to consider that an appeal to authority, fine. I don't mind a little healthy debate.

Now, implying I'm a liar because you "doubt any player said that" is another issue, and I'm not sure what you are basing your evaluation of my honesty on. To borrow your term, is it so hard to believe that some players are more freethinkers than automatons and might actually evaluate their boss's performance? Players have as many opinions as anyone else; just because they think about things doesn't mean they then undermine the team.

I've been lucky enough to be able to base some of my opinions on something other than media clips and the parsing of sound bites and still pictures. They are still just my opinions though. You can believe that or not, but I really don't spend a lot of time making things up to post here. I don't see the point.

Runner
11-29-2010, 08:50 AM
Opinions are what we're all here for so no problem with that. I think the real issue are those that take your opinion as coming from an authoritative source.

I posted my long response to you before I saw this. Just FYI.

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 09:03 AM
I posted my long response to you before I saw this. Just FYI.

Like I said, I've no problem with anyone posting opinions, but the allusion to "knowing players" is an appeal to authority. Whatever the intentions, it's still a logic fault.

That said, why would you continue to support a team that is dedicated to making money before winning as that instruction can only come from the top? As it stands, your only hope is an owner change or that somehow McNair finally hears the pleas of the honest hard working people he's so dastardly swindling and repents.

So, out of personal curiosity, what makes you support an organisation that is diametrically opposed to winning?

IDEXAN
11-29-2010, 09:38 AM
your only hope is an owner change or that somehow McNair finally hears the pleas of the honest hard working people he's so dastardly swindling and repents.

So which is it ? You're trying to win the "the silliest remark of the day award", or you're running for political office ?

Runner
11-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Like I said, I've no problem with anyone posting opinions, but the allusion to "knowing players" is an appeal to authority. Whatever the intentions, it's still a logic fault.

That said, why would you continue to support a team that is dedicated to making money before winning as that instruction can only come from the top? As it stands, your only hope is an owner change or that somehow McNair finally hears the pleas of the honest hard working people he's so dastardly swindling and repents.

So, out of personal curiosity, what makes you support an organisation that is diametrically opposed to winning?

It's not as black and white as that. The organization has made mistakes and can correct them. Will they? Who knows.

In my opinion this is an organziation that's hasn't dedicated itself to winning. Can anyone who watched the years of the David Carr experience argue that?

You keep referring to authority. There has been a lot of thought that if the Texans organization does something, it must be right. That is certainly bowing down to authority. Why is any criticism of them automatically wrong?

As far as saying my opinion is logically flawed because I "claim"* to base it on the opinions of players, it seems just as illogical to automatically reject it because of that. I've posted this same stuff before without saying why I believed it. Was it more palatable then?


*also note that I'm not the one who made such a fantastical claim. I don't go around "dopping names"** as it were.


**and no, I'm not going to name names.

Texan_Bill
11-29-2010, 09:55 AM
He should walk up and kiss McNair's shoes after all of the $$$ he stole from McNair.

Right!! You ain't kiddin'!!!


BTW, his ranch up in Center sucks too!!!

Texan_Bill
11-29-2010, 09:57 AM
Like I said, I've no problem with anyone posting opinions, but the allusion to "knowing players" is an appeal to authority. Whatever the intentions, it's still a logic fault.

That said, why would you continue to support a team that is dedicated to making money before winning as that instruction can only come from the top? As it stands, your only hope is an owner change or that somehow McNair finally hears the pleas of the honest hard working people he's so dastardly swindling and repents.

So, out of personal curiosity, what makes you support an organisation that is diametrically opposed to winning?
:facepalm:

So which is it ? You're trying to win the "the silliest remark of the day award", or you're running for political office ?
:lol:

Mr. White
11-29-2010, 10:00 AM
Opinions are what we're all here for so no problem with that. I think the real issue are those that take your opinion as coming from an authoritative source.

Anyone who's been on this board more than a month knows that Runner has a different perspective than most of us do. About 99% of us actually appreciate his perspective.

Unless his last name's Hitler or Stalin, then there's little chance of him being an "authoritative source."

Some posters have proven credibility over the years and some haven't. Guess which category you're in?

GP
11-29-2010, 10:16 AM
Opinions are what we're all here for so no problem with that. I think the real issue are those that take your opinion as coming from an authoritative source.

You have New Poster syndrome. So it's understandable why you continue to force the issue here.

I don't necessarily get along with runner, and some others on here for that matter, but I can tell you this: He, and some others, have had contact and conversations with certain people that allow them the ability to post here and say things that we might otherwise not read or hear elsewhere.

Nobody on this board has gone to the lengths you have gone, in regards to continue forcing the issue with what runner is saying. And it's not because we aren't free thinkers or because we bow down to runner. It's because the evidence keeps stacking up, on its own (via what we see on the field), and it is then supported by the things runner (and some others on here) have overheard from those who are actually "on the inside."

So the lesson, today, is this: I see a creature with white feathers. It has two webbed feet and quacks. Am I a dolt for saying "Hmmm...that certainly looks like a duck. It's acting like a duck. It must BE a duck"? Or should I balk at conventional wisdom and throw caution to the wind as I embark on the task of trying to figure out what this creature is?

I've been on here a lot longer than my profile shows (due to the board software being switched over and us having to start our accounts all over again). I've been at this specific board since the Texans were training for their first season as an NFL franchise. Runner doesn't even post much anymore, and I assume it's because he doesn't want to have to help people like you--who suffer from New Poster syndrome--understand things.

Continue to tell him, and others, how he is just speculating and it's just "conjecture" and blah blah blah. Not a single person has jumped into this thread to tell you how correct you are in your indictment of his post(s).

Slow down, do the math, think about this for awhile.

1. Look at the history of the team (how it goes about "change")

2. Look at how it affects the outcomes of games

3. Look at how many "changes" are made, when they are made, and how much of an impact those "changes" have made to the W-L column.

4. Listen to those, on here, who say they talk to certain people who know certain things.

5. Watch how nobody is coming alongside you to say "Yeah, that 'runner' guy is full of crap. He's just spouting off."

This is nearing the Beating A Dead Horse territory. And I personally don't like having to type this much for those who suffer from New Poster syndrome. But I feel an obligation to try and help you recover. Just stop already. Only you are convinced of your stated position. Take that as a moral victory (since that's what the Texans are all about anyways) and move along to the next topic.

GP
11-29-2010, 10:23 AM
Anyone who's been on this board more than a month knows that Runner has a different perspective than most of us do. About 99% of us actually appreciate his perspective.

Unless his last name's Hitler or Stalin, then there's little chance of him being an "authoritative source."

Some posters have proven credibility over the years and some haven't. Guess which category you're in?

See, you were meaner about it than I was. Yet you also said it in fewer words than I did. SoI have to applaud you for being brief and to the point.

I could stand to learn that from you.

Surreal McCoy: Nobody here wants to bully you into leaving, so please don't take it as that sort of intention. What we do want, however, is for you to show some respect to a guy (runner, in this case) who has easily earned it over the long haul of his investment here on this board.

Once again: I don't always like to engage in conversations with him, but on this particular topic he and I used to clash BIG TIME. We had some pretty good sparring sessions over this issue. And, sadly enough I have to say that I had to throw in the white towel after the outcome of last season. He was right. I was wrong. This team is mired in mediocrity and yet it manages to pull off the illusion that it is NOT mired in mediocrity. Half of that is a good job by the Texans marketing/P.R. department and half of it is because some fans (I was once one of those fans) couldn't fathom that our team's upper management doesn't actually care about winning and winning BIG.

It's hard to come off that drug.

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 10:25 AM
It's not as black and white as that.

Well, actually it doesn't get much more black and white when you say...

The corporate culture consistently supports mediocrity, does not make decisions based on performance, and values image over winning.

So again I ask, if the organization is as you believe, then it's certainly an executive level decision to put image before winning. Again, how can you support an organization that isn't trying to win in a game where the only thing that matters is winning?

You keep referring to authority.

I'm not referring to authority, I'm referring to a logic fault called Appeal to Authority. You know exactly what it is, too.


There has been a lot of thought that if the Texans organization does something, it must be right.

Sorry, is this a joke? If it was sarcasm, then sorry but I missed it?

As far as saying my opinion is logically flawed because I "claim"* to base it on the opinions of players...

Your statements are no longer simple opinions when you use Appeal to Authority as their basis - see below.

*also note that I'm not the one who made such a fantastical claim

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 10:31 AM
You have New Poster syndrome. So it's understandable why you continue to force the issue here...

...But I feel an obligation to try and help you recover. Just stop already. Only you are convinced of your stated position. Take that as a moral victory (since that's what the Texans are all about anyways) and move along to the next topic.

haha, thanks for your concern GP, it's very much appreciated (even if the sarcasm was amateurish) ;) If you want to ban me for my opinions that's fine.

Oh, and if stating an opinion different to the status quo is disrespectful, then call me disrespectful.

GP
11-29-2010, 10:38 AM
Again, how can you support an organization that isn't trying to win in a game where the only thing that matters is winning?

That, my friend, is the million dollar question to which none of us have the answer for.

It's complicated, as most relationships are.

I, for one, hope we swerve into a lucky situation whereby the blind squirrel finally finds a nut. Because it doesn't look as if this organization is doing things with the proper motives and with the proper techniques and strategies.

Teams don't become dominant by accident. You can't shoot an arrow at the wall, go up and draw a target around it, and say "Look! I hit the bullseye!"

Teams who establish a habit of winning, for let's say "a decade" or so, got there because of wise and sound strategies. The Ravens are a great example. They draft very wisely, drafting players who they can plug into their system and who make contributions in ways that support the overall form and function of the team. Our team is doing that on the offense side of the ball, but is failing VERY hard on the defense side of the ball.

Maybe we swerve into a better situation, by accident, some day. It's going to take luck, at this point, because we're something like 10 years into this franchise and have yet to see the team put both sides of the ball together and do it consistently for a whole season.

I stick around, in spite of what I feel about this team, because I was an Oilers fan since I was a kid. It was taken from me. But I got it replaced. So I have a nostalgic attraction to this team. I stuck with Rockets, too, and it paid off in 1994 and 1995.

I suppose I will stick with the Texans too. It is what it is, and that doesn't change even if I have frustrations with how things have happened thus far. Maybe McNair will evolve as time goes by. That's my hope.

GP
11-29-2010, 10:46 AM
haha, thanks for your concern GP, it's very much appreciated (even if the sarcasm was amateurish) ;) If you want to ban me for my opinions that's fine.

Oh, and if stating an opinion different to the status quo is disrespectful, then call me disrespectful.

No, it's not disrespectful (in my "opinion") to offer a differing opinion.

We could argue about vanilla ice cream vs. chocolate ice cream all day long.

But you're attempting to discredit a poster on here who has easily earned his stripes over the years. Look, what you say about him could easily apply to a lot of others on here (even me, for crying out loud) but although I don't naturally get along with runner...I have to say that on this particular topic he isn't lying or misrepresenting, or giving conjecture, etc.

So I think what is disoncerting is that you're trying to win the war by winning this one battle. That's never a sound strategy, as you surely know.

You can continue to yammer on and on about this. You have the right to do so. But in the end, it's pointless and counter-productive to what we do here. This board is not perfect, but it has a really nice atmosphere because of how we all interact with one another. And one of the reasons it's so is because people on here know how to stop once they have made their statements and nothing more can be gleaned from the back-and-forth.

We've reached that point, unless new information is introduced into the conversation. Which it isn't. It's now become a topic of who runner is, why we can or can't accept what he says, your style of interacting on this message board, etc. It's tilting toward getting personal. And it can't. Because this board has no tolerance for a sustained assault on any person's character no matter the intentions of all persons involved. And no matter how flawed a person's opinion might be.

You've made your point. And another thing: I can't ban people. If I could, I would have banned myself years ago. Though there ARE a few mods on here who would do me the favor... :thinking:

Runner
11-29-2010, 11:04 AM
And another thing: I can't ban people. If I could, I would have banned myself years ago. Though there ARE a few mods on here who would do me the favor... :thinking:

I have myself on ignore right now, so I don't know what all the hubbub is about.

Surreal McCoy
11-29-2010, 11:06 AM
No, it's not disrespectful (in my "opinion") to offer a differing opinion.

We could argue about vanilla ice cream vs. chocolate ice cream all day long.

But you're attempting to discredit a poster on here who has easily earned his stripes over the years. Look, what you say about him could easily apply to a lot of others on here (even me, for crying out loud) but although I don't naturally get along with runner...I have to say that on this particular topic he isn't lying or misrepresenting, or giving conjecture, etc.

So I think what is disoncerting is that you're trying to win the war by winning this one battle. That's never a sound strategy, as you surely know.

You can continue to yammer on and on about this. You have the right to do so. But in the end, it's pointless and counter-productive to what we do here. This board is not perfect, but it has a really nice atmosphere because of how we all interact with one another. And one of the reasons it's so is because people on here know how to stop once they have made their statements and nothing more can be gleaned from the back-and-forth.

We've reached that point, unless new information is introduced into the conversation. Which it isn't. It's now become a topic of who runner is, why we can or can't accept what he says, your style of interacting on this message board, etc. It's tilting toward getting personal. And it can't. Because this board has no tolerance for a sustained assault on any person's character no matter the intentions of all persons involved. And no matter how flawed a person's opinion might be.

You've made your point. And another thing: I can't ban people. If I could, I would have banned myself years ago. Though there ARE a few mods on here who would do me the favor... :thinking:

Well, I'll take that as reasoned response and a reasonable request to let it lie. I'm not trying to win any wars, or battles per se, I am simply pointing out something I believe is important in any discussion - that is, it's easy to win an argument with logic faults. I personally don't care about Runner's history nor am I trying to assault his character, just his post.

I see what you mean about being respectful to other posters here and I appreciate that as it otherwise turns into a free-for-all pissing match. That said, I can see just from the short time I've been posting here that any opinion that doesn't toe the TT party line is highly frowned upon, which is a bit of a let down.

Maybe this isn't the place for me and in the future I'll try to refrain from posting unless I'm slagging the team/owner/coaches. Honestly, thanks for the reasonable response and we'll see ya around ;) (i.e., lurkmode=on)

Runner
11-29-2010, 11:09 AM
The Titans are notorious for picking up defensive lineman out of the trash heap and then turning them into pro bowlers.

Who is the dline coach? Maybe that's the guy the Texans need...

Runner
11-29-2010, 11:19 AM
I'm not referring to authority, I'm referring to a logic fault called Appeal to Authority. You know exactly what it is, too.


There is also the Ad Hominem fallacy; can I assume you know what that is too?

It's time to end this little sidebar exercise. I welcome you to challenge the statements and opinions and not the poster.

GP
11-29-2010, 11:22 AM
Well, I'll take that as reasoned response and a reasonable request to let it lie. I'm not trying to win any wars, or battles per se, I am simply pointing out something I believe is important in any discussion - that is, it's easy to win an argument with logic faults. I personally don't care about Runner's history nor am I trying to assault his character, just his post.

I see what you mean about being respectful to other posters here and I appreciate that as it otherwise turns into a free-for-all pissing match. That said, I can see just from the short time I've been posting here that any opinion that doesn't toe the TT party line is highly frowned upon, which is a bit of a let down.

Maybe this isn't the place for me and in the future I'll try to refrain from posting unless I'm slagging the team/owner/coaches. Honestly, thanks for the reasonable response and we'll see ya around ;) (i.e., lurkmode=on)

The "I am going to go on lurk mode" response is the natural progression of these types of situations, and it's your choice to do so. I sometimes ban myself for a day or two when I feel that I am getting too attached to my own stance(s) on certain topics. It's good medicine to sometimes withdraw and let things go.

You didn't go full-blown bat crap crazy or anything. My favorite is the new guy who puts everyone on full blast for typing and gramatical errors. We get those from time to time, and then he'll make a mistake and everyone puts him on full blast...and he disappears afterward.

Look, you're easily more tolerable than 99% of people who begin posting for the first time. I was just trying to help you understand that what runner is saying is not pure conjecture or speculating, etc. Nobody here is making these statements after only having a year or two to judge this team by. This is almost a whole decade of a pattern or style of leadership by the Texans owner and those whom he employs. The product takes on the shape and style of its producer. It is what it is. From top to bottom, this team is built like McNair is built.

What I don't appreciate, in terms of my personal preference around here, are the people who say that because McNair is wealthy that he knows more than we do, he should be thanked for bringing back football to Houston (which excuses him from criticism, I suppose) etc. etc. You haven't seen those people yet, but they exist. There used to be a broad spectrum of people who had various beliefs about the Texans and its leadership...and it is dwindling down to where I would say the majority of people on here are fed up with the way things are done. The big jump happened this season right around the game right after the bye week. That's when long-term McNair supporters had finally had enough. And the soap bar avatars became popular for event he most staunch supporter of anything Texans.

Runner is a lot like you. He will challenge people to think more deeply about things, and sometimes people don't want to do that.

thunderkyss
11-29-2010, 12:35 PM
Teams who establish a habit of winning, for let's say "a decade" or so, got there because of wise and sound strategies. The Ravens are a great example. They draft very wisely, drafting players who they can plug into their system and who make contributions in ways that support the overall form and function of the team. Our team is doing that on the offense side of the ball, but is failing VERY hard on the defense side of the ball.


Is that really a fair assessment?

Looking at Baltimore & their "decade" of success, drafting players they can plug into their system..... It's only been recently that they've had an offense to speak of.

Maybe Billick was genius in focusing on that strength, & making it dominant, which isn't something Kubiak has done. Instead, we're plugging players in on the offensive side, to get by.

Getting Anquan Boldin or Brandon Marshall, or Michael Turner when he was available would have been "akin" to what Billick did to the Ravens.

thunderkyss
11-29-2010, 12:38 PM
I have myself on ignore right now, so I don't know what all the hubbub is about.

Inigo Who are you
Man in Black No one of consequence
Inigo I must know
Man in Black Get used to disappointment

Shaft75
11-29-2010, 12:58 PM
We were yelling "Babin Sux!" when they were in our endzone yesterday. And I heard that he really does suck...literally. :ahhaha: Has anyone else heard this about Babin?

houstonspartan
11-29-2010, 01:26 PM
I'm late to this conversation, but I'll say this: As a season ticket holder, my experiences jibe with what Runner has stated. This is a team obsessed with marketing. Not that that's a bad thing, per say. But this team appears to be tone deaf about what fans really want.

I am extremely happy that they FINALLY got better quality better selections on the North Mezzanine level, for which I complained for a while. However, that doesn't make up for what I see on the field week after week.

That, I think is the Texans biggest issue: They think if I'm happy with my beer selections, then all is right with every thing else. Not true.

GP
11-29-2010, 01:30 PM
Is that really a fair assessment?

Looking at Baltimore & their "decade" of success, drafting players they can plug into their system..... It's only been recently that they've had an offense to speak of.

Maybe Billick was genius in focusing on that strength, & making it dominant, which isn't something Kubiak has done. Instead, we're plugging players in on the offensive side, to get by.

Getting Anquan Boldin or Brandon Marshall, or Michael Turner when he was available would have been "akin" to what Billick did to the Ravens.

I think you stand a better chance of building a dominant DEFENSE first and foremost, then gradually upgrading the offense over time. The defense will keep other teams' offense off the field and off the scoreboard.

What we're seeing here, IMO, is the opposite: We're trying to build an elite offense each year, doing a pretty good job at it, and yet our defense is ruining the offense's chance of winning games.

Kubiak picked offense. I'm not saying he has completely ignored our defense, but it does make me a little upset that our defense has been fairly putrid for so long. Brian Cushing is perhaps THE start of what I hope is a new attitude toward choosing defensive players in the draft--Guys who eat, sleep and breathe football. Guys whose arms look like a pigskin football. Freaks.

I don't care for how we have drafted secondary AT ALL. Even the Kareem Jackson pick is looking very sketchy right now. We need a stud Safety who can ballhawk, and we need him in the worst way. Leave Pollard at Strong Safety, as the "roaming enforcer" who lays down hits on unsuspecting WRs entering territories they shouldn't, but we gotta' have a better Free Safety who can lock down that position for us. And consistently keep it locked down.

Ravens, Steelers, Patriots. Those teams have a core identity, stick with it, and find ways to plug-and-play people into it with what I think is a great success rate. They're not perfect, but they are (IMO) the class of the league, and will be for some time, when it comes to staying consistent and handling business on a routine basis. And it doesn't happen by accident. It is well-intentioned. It was a process of discovery, everyting from the scouts to the contract builders and from the trainers to the coaches, and every other person in-between.

It is well-intentioned. No random accidents.

Double Barrel
11-29-2010, 05:45 PM
Again, how can you support an organization that isn't trying to win in a game where the only thing that matters is winning?

Good question that leads to one of those soul-searching missions where you climb a big mountain and interrupt the meditating dude with the long white beard with this same question.

It's one that I asked myself at the end of 2-14...a brutal, dark period of early Texans history that I, in my rabid fanatic state, refused to leave the stadium early and forced my buddies to stay until 0:00...but, I digress...

The answer to your question has something to do with the "Houston" in front of the official franchise name, and something more to do with the history of this city (and state) as it pertains to loving the greatest sport ever invented...and then probably a sprinkle of some psycho-analytical mumbo-jumbo about the human characteristic of tribalism as it relates to our on-going evolutionary development.

Truth be told, who the hell else are we going to root for???

And besides, just because you love your team doesn't mean that you must wear blinders to the obvious perplexities of perpetual mediocrity.

And perhaps the key word in your question is "support", simply because that could be construed to mean a variety of things. Perhaps "root for" is not the same thing as "support"? The latter would seem to indicate a financial arrangement between the customer...errrr, fan, and the franchise. One can root for a team without financially supporting the product. Unless, of course, you just meant support as in root for, then we're back to that metaphysical soul-searching expedition to some distant mountain.

:winky:

JB
11-29-2010, 06:34 PM
Good question that leads to one of those soul-searching missions where you climb a big mountain and interrupt the meditating dude with the long white beard with this same question.

It's one that I asked myself at the end of 2-14...a brutal, dark period of early Texans history that I, in my rabid fanatic state, refused to leave the stadium early and forced my buddies to stay until 0:00...but, I digress...

The answer to your question has something to do with the "Houston" in front of the official franchise name, and something more to do with the history of this city (and state) as it pertains to loving the greatest sport ever invented...and then probably a sprinkle of some psycho-analytical mumbo-jumbo about the human characteristic of tribalism as it relates to our on-going evolutionary development.

Truth be told, who the hell else are we going to root for???

And besides, just because you love your team doesn't mean that you must wear blinders to the obvious perplexities of perpetual mediocrity.

And perhaps the key word in your question is "support", simply because that could be construed to mean a variety of things. Perhaps "root for" is not the same thing as "support"? The latter would seem to indicate a financial arrangement between the customer...errrr, fan, and the franchise. One can root for a team without financially supporting the product. Unless, of course, you just meant support as in root for, then we're back to that metaphysical soul-searching expedition to some distant mountain.

:winky:

That is some beautiful gobbedly-gook. I think you nailed it.

Big Lou
11-29-2010, 07:26 PM
So Babin was a waste of a first round pick, and now he's tearing this board apart.


Oh the humanity, will Babin ever stop hurting the city of Houston?

I think he may be the offspring of Bud Adams.....

swtbound07
11-29-2010, 08:02 PM
when runner posts, i read. when surreal mccoy posts, it makes me cut and paste him into the ignore box.


mccoy=babin

runner=mario williams.


easy.

JB
11-29-2010, 08:16 PM
when runner posts, i read. when surreal mccoy posts, it makes me cut and paste him into the ignore box.


mccoy=babin

runner=mario williams.


easy.


Ouch!

HTown2ATX
11-29-2010, 08:22 PM
I got a weird feeling that Babin and Winston may throw down next game.

I just think there will be something that goes down next time but I don't think 'Dre or his new ***** Finnegan will be stupid enough to go at it again. But I just know something will happen. They'll want blood. Babin obviously has sand in his vag and I'm sure wants a piece now.

I remember last year in Bumblescum when the 1st padded brawl on the sidelines broke out, Winston threw his gear off and challenged Van Den Bosch straight up.

Well, Babin wants to be the next Van Den Douche so I see him going too far on Winston's side next game and they maul each other for a second or 2.

Hope I'm wrong and I'm not wishing for a fight. But if I were to predict one that may happen, that would be it.

spurstexanstros
11-29-2010, 08:26 PM
At the end of the day he's still Jason Babin - first round bust.
And why I wasnt in favor of drafting Connor Barwin who some saw as Babin 2.0

Anyone who's been on this board more than a month knows that Runner has a different perspective than most of us do. About 99% of us actually appreciate his perspective.

Unless his last name's Hitler or Stalin, then there's little chance of him being an "authoritative source."

Some posters have proven credibility over the years and some haven't. Guess which category you're in?

We should have a BCS for the posters on here it would be perfect and the formula could be easier to understand than the real one.

We have the Soaper Conf.
We have the Troll Conf.
We have the Mod Conf.(How many of you guys are there anyway?)
We Have the Koolaid Drinker Conf.
The Texan Bill Conf.


At the end of the year we rank all the posts put it into the TT server and come up with poster of the year.

HTown2ATX
11-29-2010, 08:37 PM
And why I wasnt in favor of drafting Connor Barwin who some saw as Babin 2.0



We should have a BCS for the posters on here it would be perfect and the formula could be easier to understand than the real one.

We have the Soaper Conf.
We have the Troll Conf.
We have the Mod Conf.(How many of you guys are there anyway?)
We Have the Koolaid Drinker Conf.
The Texan Bill Conf.


At the end of the year we rank all the posts put it into the TT server and come up with poster of the year.

Add the Thunderkyss conference......No matter how bad the Texans play, if you need to feel better about them, call on TK!! :peek:

(all in good fun TK ;) )

thunderkyss
11-29-2010, 08:47 PM
Add the Thunderkyss conference......No matter how bad the Texans play, if you need to feel better about them, call on TK!! :peek:

(all in good fun TK ;) )

I'm good, I like it.

We need guys that ***** & moan about everything. We need the silver lining guys.

& everything in between.

Showtime100
11-29-2010, 08:52 PM
I'm good, I like it.

We need guys that ***** & moan about everything. We need the silver lining guys.

& everything in between.

NOW you're talkin. Count me in the ***** & moan group because we are 5-6 in what was supposed to be something special.

JB
11-29-2010, 08:52 PM
And why I wasnt in favor of drafting Connor Barwin who some saw as Babin 2.0



We should have a BCS for the posters on here it would be perfect and the formula could be easier to understand than the real one.

We have the Soaper Conf. The "We ain't going to take it" crowd
We have the Troll Conf. The " I ain't got no life" crowd
We have the Mod Conf. The Hit Squad
We Have the Koolaid Drinker Conf. The " Blinded by the Light" crowd
The Texan Bill Conf. The "Drinking Beer and getting Stoned" crowd


At the end of the year we rank all the posts put it into the TT server and come up with poster of the year.



I think we may need another conf. or three to pick up the slackers and in-betweens...

thunderkyss
11-29-2010, 08:54 PM
NOW you're talkin. Count me in the ***** & moan group because we are 5-6 in what was supposed to be something special.

It can still be something special..... just wait & see.

HTown2ATX
11-29-2010, 08:59 PM
I can still be something special..... just wait & see.

This I agree with you on TK. The division is still within reach somehow.

thunderkyss
11-29-2010, 09:03 PM
The division is still within reach somehow.

I think Andre must've dropped one of those Hay-Makers on a fat lady somewhere.

infantrycak
11-29-2010, 10:47 PM
You speak of this "Runner" guy as though you're in awe of him, and everybody has to tippy-toe around him else they risk provoking his ire ?

I don't understand how you could draw that from what I said. My point was simply Runner has had some opportunities most fans do not get.

And about your Babin story, I confess you got me man. I'm totally intrigued ?
Babin was a bigger a-hole than the legal guys ? You can't just flip that out there and leave us in suspence ? If so, Babin may be an a-hole for the ages but you're a tease for the ages. More info, please.

Lawyer jokes aside, the clients are often much bigger a-holes than the legal guys. In this particular instance Babin had work done at his ranch and refused to pay without even a pretense of an excuse of why he shouldn't pay. Nonetheless he sat through the day sneering, making crappy comments under his breadth, bumping into people to physically intimidate them, etc.

Looks like reports are true that Babin & family still reside in Houston and even though he's moved on from the Texans, surprisingly his family hasn't as they seem to still be supporting them even on Sundays when they're playing Babins latest employer.

He has a ton of money and time invested in his exotic hunting ranch operation so I am not surprised they are still around. Believe the dad manages or helps manage the ranch.

houstonspartan
11-29-2010, 11:16 PM
i just think there will be something that goes down next time but i don't think 'dre or his new ***** finnegan will be stupid enough to go at it again. But i just know something will happen. They'll want blood. Babin obviously has sand in his vag and i'm sure wants a piece now.



lmao!