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Maddict5
11-26-2010, 06:56 PM
havent had the stomach to rewatch the jets game till now.. and im not really into looking for excuses or whatever. it shouldve never came to that last td play but just rewatched the game there and on the last play... just watch what happens cushing smh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvzVZHYys6o

Maddict5
11-26-2010, 06:56 PM
btw i know its waaaaaay too late to post this but just hadnt seen it mentioned by anyone

JB
11-26-2010, 06:59 PM
havent had the stomach to rewatch the jets game till now.. and im not really into looking for excuses or whatever. it shouldve never came to that last td play but just rewatched the game there and on the last play... just watch what happens cushing smh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvzVZHYys6o

Damn! I didn't see that before, but he was just flat out tackled when he had a clear path to the qb! I sure hope they sent that to the league office!

TexCanada
11-26-2010, 07:16 PM
What the H didn't Quin try to strip that ball at the end? Holmes had it in one hand and it could have been stripped quite easily. They may have determined that he had already secured the ball, but still, with all the flaky calls that have been made on touchdown catches you would think he would have at least tried to knock it away. Pretty sad to see him give up as soon as the ball got over his head.

Edit: Also, that tackle on Cushing was pretty ridiculous. Should have been an easy call.

JMacaroni
11-26-2010, 11:34 PM
Even obvious from a different angle on the replay. Shitty.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 11:58 PM
What the H didn't Quin try to strip that ball at the end? Holmes had it in one hand and it could have been stripped quite easily. They may have determined that he had already secured the ball, but still, with all the flaky calls that have been made on touchdown catches you would think he would have at least tried to knock it away. Pretty sad to see him give up as soon as the ball got over his head.

Edit: Also, that tackle on Cushing was pretty ridiculous. Should have been an easy call.

From all of the camera angles, it was pretty clear that Quin so beaten that he was around 3 feet away from the receiver by the time he went out of bounds in the corner of the end zone. No chance for a meaningful strip.

76Texan
11-27-2010, 12:00 AM
What the H didn't Quin try to strip that ball at the end? Holmes had it in one hand and it could have been stripped quite easily. They may have determined that he had already secured the ball, but still, with all the flaky calls that have been made on touchdown catches you would think he would have at least tried to knock it away. Pretty sad to see him give up as soon as the ball got over his head.

Edit: Also, that tackle on Cushing was pretty ridiculous. Should have been an easy call.

Texans have been getting the short end of the deal (quite a bit more than the opponents) all year long, I don't see any use of crying foul about it.

But just for the sake of talking about that play, you can see at least two things that could have been called:

1. The blocker's action on Cushing.

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

2. The illegal pick by the outside receiver on KJ.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

.....

BTW, once the catch was made, there's no use for Quin to do anything.
Play was over.

76Texan
11-27-2010, 01:01 AM
What was peculiar was the D-call.
I would expect some sort of tango between KJ and Quin (switching).
The way Quin was positioned, there was no way he can defend that wheel route due to the natural barrier created by the slot receiver and KJ.

It was an 8-man blitz.
If the Texans were to play straight man like that, it would make more sense to have Quin play on the LOS.
If the receiver beats the jam, Quin probably would have to commit PI to prevent the TD.

I'm not so sure the coaches put the players in a position to succeed on that play.

HJam72
11-27-2010, 05:16 AM
What was peculiar was the D-call.
I would expect some sort of tango between KJ and Quin (switching).
The way Quin was positioned, there was no way he can defend that wheel route due to the natural barrier created by the slot receiver and KJ.

It was an 8-man blitz.
If the Texans were to play straight man like that, it would make more sense to have Quin play on the LOS.
If the receiver beats the jam, Quin probably would have to commit PI to prevent the TD.

I'm not so sure the coaches put the players in a position to succeed on that play.

On this D, do they ever? :sarcasm:

TheMatrix31
11-27-2010, 06:02 AM
Wow, never noticed that. EGREGIOUS! How could that not be called. Holy crap. I'm pissed all over again.

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 07:46 AM
Wow, never noticed that. EGREGIOUS! How could that not be called. Holy crap. I'm pissed all over again.

Why? If it had been called, they still would have been able to get a minimum of two more plays off with ten seconds remaining to go with a timeout. The TD was inevitable.

thunderkyss
11-27-2010, 08:02 AM
Texans have been getting the short end of the deal (quite a bit more than the opponents) all year long, I don't see any use of crying foul about it.

But just for the sake of talking about that play, you can see at least two things that could have been called:

1. The blocker's action on Cushing.

Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.

I agree with this... pretty obvious. But like you said, what's the point. It is what it is. We've probably gotten away with some of these our selves.

2. The illegal pick by the outside receiver on KJ.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

.....

I don't think it was an illegal pick, it was actually our player in Quin's path... see how KJ fronted the receiver, to prevent the slant??

BTW, once the catch was made, there's no use for Quin to do anything.
Play was over.

yup...... [/nuff said]

thunderkyss
11-27-2010, 08:39 AM
What was peculiar was the D-call.
I would expect some sort of tango between KJ and Quin (switching).
The way Quin was positioned, there was no way he can defend that wheel route due to the natural barrier created by the slot receiver and KJ.

It was an 8-man blitz.
If the Texans were to play straight man like that, it would make more sense to have Quin play on the LOS.
If the receiver beats the jam, Quin probably would have to commit PI to prevent the TD.

I'm not so sure the coaches put the players in a position to succeed on that play.

My beef with Bush on this play is that we've seen it at least half a dozen times, we defend it the same way every time, & we get beat on it every time.

If they were playing man, KJac has got to be on the line, to jam his man at the line, preventing Holmes from running the underneath unabated. I'm more apt to blame the rookie than the DC with a veteran defensive staff..... maybe Bush is a rookie DC, but he's got LB coaches, DB coaches, DL coaches, Defensive assistant coaches & a whole slew of people who have seen the same thing we've seen multiple times.

if the coaches are telling both DBs to play back off the line like that, they need to be playing zone... with a man look. the only option is to switch.

Quin should hold his ground, & watch the QB for the slant. He needs to keep one eye on the outside receiver and roll with him if he gets behind him. If the receiver in front of him runs straight at him, or tries to slant inside, he's still got it covered.

KJac needs to be doing the same thing..... he needs to keep the inside receiver in the corner of his eye, if the inside receiver cuts out, he's got to switch... no other option, he has to stay on top of him, & not allow him into the end zone unabated, there is no way for Quin to get to the outside. Quin would have to take the outside receiver, the fade will still be difficult to defend, but he won't be 3 yards behind... he should still be able to make a play.

But overall, I agree there is something wrong with the coaching, if this keeps happening again & again, & this does.

A player falling down all the time, I can't blame that on the coaches, but this..... this has got to be a coaching issue.

Lucky
11-27-2010, 09:18 AM
A player falling down all the time, I can't blame that on the coaches, but this..... this has got to be a coaching issue.
If the player is asked to play poor technique (like shuffling backwards rather than backpedaling), then I can blame coaching for a player falling down.

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 09:25 AM
If the player is asked to play poor technique (like shuffling backwards rather than backpedaling), then I can blame coaching for a player falling down.

This is true but I don't see Jackson shuffling. I don't see anyone shuffling really. Do you? Jackson seems to have a poor bite getting off. I think his initial response time is slow and he falls down because he's in the process of getting beat. He has some really nice jets on him. Now to work on planting his feet and his timing...

Lucky
11-27-2010, 09:50 AM
This is true but I don't see Jackson shuffling. I don't see anyone shuffling really. Do you?
Um, yeah I do. Watch these (ahem) highlights (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010101008/2010/REG5/giants@texans/watch/contentid:09000d5d81b3bbf9) of the Giants/Texans debacle. Also, there is a thread here (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77824) discussing the shuffle technique Gibbs employs.

Edit: Fixed link

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 10:13 AM
Um, yeah I do. Watch these (ahem) highlights (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77824) of the Giants/Texans debacle. Also, there is a thread here (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77824) discussing the shuffle technique Gibbs employs.

Both links go to the same thread.

I've certainly heard all about the shuffle for a couple years now... I don't see it. I really would like to see the Giants game highlights. If anyone looks like they're doing it... it'd be McCain but I think that's more of him being a piss-poor CB than anything else. I think the discussions relating to the "implementation" of this technique is a little overblown. I don't doubt they practice it but ultimately the players do what comes to them naturally.

Rey
11-27-2010, 10:20 AM
I don't doubt they practice it but ultimately the players do what comes to them naturally.

I don't know about that...

A lot of football techniques aren't really "natural" movements...

Especially when you're talking about a CB who is moving backward at a fairly high rate of speed. You normally practice certain techniques so that it becomes a habit.

If they are practicing the shuffling technique I highly doubt they go into game day and do their own thing.

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't know about that...

A lot of football techniques aren't really "natural" movements...

Especially when you're talking about a CB who is moving backward at a fairly high rate of speed. You normally practice certain techniques so that it becomes a habit.

If they are practicing the shuffling technique I highly doubt they go into game day and do their own thing.

When somebody has practiced this or that all their life... that technique becomes what's natural to them. All accounts from the Gibbs' change hampers those who have always backpeddled at this stage. It's why I added the word ultimately in.

Shuffling just doesn't seem natural unless one has years of practice. I think Gibbs needs to start with high schoolers in order to have more success.

Lucky
11-27-2010, 10:28 AM
Both links go to the same thread.
Fixed.

I've certainly heard all about the shuffle for a couple years now... I don't see it.
Keep looking.

Kareem shuffling (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010101008/2010/REG5/giants@texans/watch/contentid:09000d5d81b3bbf9) on a 45 yard completion to Steve Smith.

Freakin' NFL.com highlights won't jump directly to video. Scroll down to "Steve Smith 45-yard catch".

NitroGSXR
11-27-2010, 10:31 AM
Fixed.
Oh. Just broad gameday highlights.

Keep looking.
Ok, thanx.

Rey
11-27-2010, 10:53 AM
When somebody has practiced this or that all their life... that technique becomes what's natural to them. All accounts from the Gibbs' change hampers those who have always backpeddled at this stage. It's why I added the word ultimately in.

Shuffling just doesn't seem natural unless one has years of practice. I think Gibbs needs to start with high schoolers in order to have more success.

I would tend to agree with you, but at each stage of football...from pee wee, to Middle, to high, to college to the Pros...

At each level you will learn some new technique...

Heck, from one level to the next you may be playing an entirely different position. There's always an adjustment...Just because you've been doing something doesn't mean you don't adjust...that's what being an athlete is about...

My point, is that it's not as hard is it seems to incorporate a new technique into your repertoire. It's not even hard to completely change something you have been doing for a while.

Of course it won't come naturally at first, but guys like Quinn, Molden and McCain probably have Gibbs techniques down by now. They've been doing it for two years now.


I'm not one that thinks that the shuffling technique is a hindrance. Honestly, I don't know.

The only one falling down all the time is Kareem. Maybe he's doing something wrong. Maybe his brain is working faster than his legs are. I don't know.

All I'm saying is that if they are practicing a certain technique all through mini camp, training camp and at practice, then I think it's safe to assume that in the 11th week of the NFL season they are using that technique.

TheMatrix31
11-27-2010, 05:41 PM
Why? If it had been called, they still would have been able to get a minimum of two more plays off with ten seconds remaining to go with a timeout. The TD was inevitable.

A penalty is a penalty. And they didn't have a timeout. If it's the correct call that puts them back a bit, then you make them earn it.

Whatever.

76Texan
11-28-2010, 12:14 PM
I don't think it was an illegal pick, it was actually our player in Quin's path... see how KJ fronted the receiver, to prevent the slant??


To me, it's clearly a pick.
If you have the game, look at the third replay.

It shows that KJ was playing inside technique to keep the outside receiver from going inside.
The receiver ran straight toward him, turn around and box out KJ (exactly the same as a box out in basketball in the post.)
For good measure, the receiver put out his arms, with one elbow catching KJ either on the chest or near the neck area.
There's no such route in football.

76Texan
11-28-2010, 12:27 PM
I'm not one that thinks that the shuffling technique is a hindrance. Honestly, I don't know.



The first 3 times that our DBs used the technique in this game (with a pass coming toward them) it resulted in 3 completed passes.

Each of them demonstrated a different draw-back on the shuffle.
And it's 3 different CBs, mind you, not the same one over and over again.

The first was Quin on the Jets first pass of the game on 1-10.
A 7-yd completion to Holmes on a quick out route.

The second one was on 3rd-5 (8:47 in the second qtr).
Holmes got past McCain easily on a slant route for 26 yds, tackled by Pollard.
(Highlight on nfl.com)

The third one was on 2nd-23 a few plays later.
It went to Turner for 21 yds on a comebacker near the left sideline.
In this one, we had KJ dropping back deep into 3-deep coverage.
Quin had the underneath and was late (but that's a different story).
The technique hindered KJ from coming back quicker in his zone drop.

I will try to describe them soon.

76Texan
11-28-2010, 12:42 PM
The first was with Quin in coverage on the Jets first pass of the game on 1-10.
A 7-yd completion to Holmes on a quick out route.

Quin was on our left, with his back toward the sideline.
His right foot is the back foot (furthest from the LOS).
He would open by planting this (right) foot, turned his left hip to the inside, took a step with the left foot, and completed the 180-degree turn with his left foot now pointing toward the end zone.
As Quin made the inside turn, all the receiver (Holmes) had to do was to make a quick cut toward the sideline for an easy reception.

There was absolutely no chance for Quin to defend this route as it was.
He would have a better chance had he stayed in his shuffle longer.
Still, my point of contention is that the react-back can be made easier from a back-pedal.

76Texan
11-28-2010, 12:51 PM
The second one was on 3rd-5 (8:47 in the second qtr).
Holmes got past McCain easily on a slant route for 26 yds, tackled by Pollard.
(Highlight on nfl.com)

On this one, the receiver went into motion from left to right slot.

McCain followed him (man coverage) and played inside technique.
He stayed inside the receiver with a 45-degree angle shuffle (looking toward the near side line and the receiver.)
As McCain took a step back with his left foot (the one closer to the side line), Holmes turned inside for a slant-in.
As two ships sailing in opposite directions, you can see that it was too easy for the receiver to get separation on the cornerback.

Once again, the back-pedal would have put the DB (McCain) in better position to cover this pass route.

76Texan
11-28-2010, 01:03 PM
The third one was on 2nd-23 a few plays later.
It went to Turner for 21 yds on a comebacker near the left sideline.
In this one, we had KJ dropping back deep into 3-deep coverage.
Quin had the underneath and was late (but that's a different story).
The technique hindered KJ from coming back quicker in his zone drop.

In this play, the receiver lines up wide, near the left side line.
He would run straight downfield, made a sudden stop, turned to the outside, and came back to receive the pass (a comeback route).

KJ was in his deep drop to his deep third of the zone (approximately some 22 yds from the LOS and back toward the endzone).
He did what he was supposed to do in this 3-deep coverage.
Quin was late in stretching his zone back to cover the underneath area (but like I said, that's a different story.)

The point here is that in the shuffle technique, KJ was able to see the QB and broke on the ball. And yet he couldn't come back in time to break up the pass. The reason was that he couldn't see the receiver clearly.
In the backpedal, KJ would have made his turn toward the sideline (and the receiver). He would have been able to watch the receiver's eyes, his inside ear lobe, his inside hip (whatever his preference.)

Again, this demonstrates yet another draw back of the shuffle.

Rey
11-28-2010, 05:18 PM
The first 3 times that our DBs used the technique in this game (with a pass coming toward them) it resulted in 3 completed passes.

Each of them demonstrated a different draw-back on the shuffle.
And it's 3 different CBs, mind you, not the same one over and over again.

The first was Quin on the Jets first pass of the game on 1-10.
A 7-yd completion to Holmes on a quick out route.

The second one was on 3rd-5 (8:47 in the second qtr).
Holmes got past McCain easily on a slant route for 26 yds, tackled by Pollard.
(Highlight on nfl.com)

The third one was on 2nd-23 a few plays later.
It went to Turner for 21 yds on a comebacker near the left sideline.
In this one, we had KJ dropping back deep into 3-deep coverage.
Quin had the underneath and was late (but that's a different story).
The technique hindered KJ from coming back quicker in his zone drop.

I will try to describe them soon.

Like I said...I don't know...

How do I know that those Cb's aren't giving up those passes if they are using the traditional back pedal technique?

How do we know they are doing the shuffling technique 100% correctly?

Maybe they as individuals are making other mistakes that don't have everything to do with the technique used.

Are they using the technique mostly in man or zone coverages?

These are questions we do not know and can't possibly know.

But besides all of that...The technique has had to have been used successfully by someone or else it wouldn't have made it's way through the coaching ladder. I'm sure Gibbs isn't an innovator of this technique. If he is, then I could really see some potential problems with him trying to experiment and implement it with this group.

Maybe some corners are better at using this technique than others. That'd be something for the staff to figure out.

Maybe some folks have their minds made up about the shuffling, but personally I have never played CB in a live game on any level so I don't have enough knowledge to say I disagree with the technique altogether when I don't even know if the guys we are putting out there are even doing it right.

Maybe the completed passes are a result of something else. Maybe some of them lack change of direction speed. Maybe they are just confused. Maybe they did something else wrong. Maybe it was a good route and throw by the QB. Maybe they were just in a bad coverage to stop that route..Maybe it's a completion regardless of what technique they use in those particular instances...Who knows....I'm sure that there have been many successful instances in which the technique was used that we don't have on tape. Of course the bad ones would be used to make a point.

I appreciate the break downs, but it's just my opinion that there is no way that we could make 100% judgments on that aspect of the game. To break it down to that level and say that on any one particular play that that shuffle technique was the reason for a completed pass is not realistic to me.