PDA

View Full Version : Cornerback's Technique—Source of Our Secondary Woes?


CretorFrigg
11-21-2010, 03:23 PM
When David Gibbs was first hired, he implemented a new technique for the cornerbacks. Rather than the traditional backpedal, they shuffle, which supposedly gives them a better opportunity to make a play.

However, it seems like this "technique" is the source of our troubles. When Santonio Holmes ran the slant route against Brice McCain, McCain was shuffling with his hips pointed the other direction, which slowed him down. And subsequently, the receiver beat him for a TD. Is this part of the reason why our secondary continues to struggle?

Also, I'd like to congratulate Jason Allen on playing a pretty good game. :clap: (so far)

silvrhand
11-21-2010, 03:44 PM
When David Gibbs was first hired, he implemented a new technique for the cornerbacks. Rather than the traditional backpedal, they shuffle, which supposedly gives them a better opportunity to make a play.

However, it seems like this "technique" is the source of our troubles. When Santonio Holmes ran the slant route against Brice McCain, McCain was shuffling with his hips pointed the other direction, which slowed him down. And subsequently, the receiver beat him for a TD. Is this part of the reason why our secondary continues to struggle?


I don't see this employed a lot by any other team anyone else? 76Texan is likely the best person to comment on that.


Also, I'd like to congratulate Jason Allen on playing a pretty good game. :clap: (so far)

He hasn't been here long enough to be ruined by our coaches yet.

CretorFrigg
11-21-2010, 03:59 PM
It's nice to see Jackson's role diminished to nickelback. Allen has done a nice job stepping in. We'll see...

EDIT: nevermind (But Allen still played a lot better than Jackson)

silvrhand
11-21-2010, 04:11 PM
It's nice to see Jackson's role diminished to nickelback. Allen has done a nice job stepping in. We'll see...

Yah cause Quin/McFail is looking a ton better :\

Big Lou
11-21-2010, 04:19 PM
Is sucking considered a technique or a condition.....

CretorFrigg
11-21-2010, 04:20 PM
Is sucking considered a technique or a condition.....

I'm leaning towards the latter.

CretorFrigg
11-21-2010, 08:24 PM
Can anybody with more football knowledge confirm my observations?

Pollardized
11-21-2010, 08:35 PM
Watching the shuffling of Texans CB's is somewhat confusing. They seem to always be shuffling in the wrong direction. Maybe because they don't jam the receivers at the line, the receiver has an immediate advantage with spacing. Then the receiver is able to use the CB's shuffling to his advantage. He can make his move dependent on which way the CB is facing/shuffling. The CB is then left in the wrong position, looking stupid like McCain today, facing away from the play.

wagonhed
11-21-2010, 08:39 PM
Stupid. Bad idea. Ineffective. Pointless. Retarded.

Did I leave anything out?

JB
11-21-2010, 09:00 PM
Stupid. Bad idea. Ineffective. Pointless. Retarded.

Did I leave anything out?

Idiotic, suckitude at it's finest, appalling, nauseous.

I will think of some more when I sober up...

BSofA04
11-21-2010, 09:27 PM
Playing 10 yards off the ball when the Jets were first and goal was ridiculous. I LOST IT WHEN McCain gave up the TD on the quick slant. Our defender didn't even touch him on his way to the endzone.

Way too fwucking easy.

Texas T
11-21-2010, 09:34 PM
I pointed this out on another thread also but it applies here too.

On the last TD, all our DBs were playing to the inside, which allowed the receiver to get out of bounds and stop the clock. Had they been on the outside someone could have kept him inbounds and kept the clock running...

Also, if anyone watched the pre-game for the Eagles/Giants game they commented about how horrible the Texans D is and they agreed that someone on the Texans Defense coaching staff needed to be fired for the crap they've left on the field (paraphrased).

BSofA04
11-21-2010, 09:41 PM
I pointed this out on another thread also but it applies here too.

On the last TD, all our DBs were playing to the inside, which allowed the receiver to get out of bounds and stop the clock. Had they been on the outside someone could have kept him inbounds and kept the clock running...

Also, if anyone watched the pre-game for the Eagles/Giants game they commented about how horrible the Texans D is and they agreed that someone on the Texans Defense coaching staff needed to be fired for the crap they've left on the field (paraphrased).
Reaaaallly? Well it's not latebreaking news but it's comforting to know someone else recognizes our pain.

Texas T
11-21-2010, 09:42 PM
Reaaaallly? Well it's not latebreaking news but it's comforting to know someone else recognizes our pain.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking but maybe if the talking heads on the NFL shows start saying this, McNair will listen, since he obviously doesn't listen to any of us.
It was Dungy and Harrison discussing this.

BSofA04
11-21-2010, 09:47 PM
Yeah, that's what I was thinking but maybe if the talking heads on the NFL shows start saying this, McNair will listen, since he obviously doesn't listen to any of us.
It was Dungy and Harrison discussing this.

I respect the hell outta Dungy. He knows us better than anyone. Secretly, I think he wants us to succeed. He knew we were a confidence piece away from beating the Colts. Guess he forgot how bad our defense was...but he's right, heads need to roll.

leebigeztx
11-21-2010, 11:18 PM
When you have poor cb play, you want them closer to the wr and trail. If you dont do this, the cb will get beat bad by a route runner. The texans should play bump and run from 2 yds off to cover up technique issues.

silvrhand
11-22-2010, 06:56 AM
When you have poor cb play, you want them closer to the wr and trail. If you dont do this, the cb will get beat bad by a route runner. The texans should play bump and run from 2 yds off to cover up technique issues.

Yah until you realize you two safeties can't cover over the top of an old lady..

thunderkyss
11-22-2010, 07:23 AM
When David Gibbs was first hired, he implemented a new technique for the cornerbacks. Rather than the traditional backpedal, they shuffle, which supposedly gives them a better opportunity to make a play.

However, it seems like this "technique" is the source of our troubles. When Santonio Holmes ran the slant route against Brice McCain, McCain was shuffling with his hips pointed the other direction, which slowed him down. And subsequently, the receiver beat him for a TD. Is this part of the reason why our secondary continues to struggle?

Technically, it should allow them to make a play on the ball. They are facing the QB, they should be watching the QB & the receiver.

I don't think it is this technique that is the "source" of our problems. I think it's that we have "fine" athletes, a talented bunch of guys, but not many football players.

It's as if they don't understand routes, don't study tendencies, don't anticipate the throw. It's usually not until the ball is caught, that our DBs & LBs make a break on the ball.

Surely that's not what is being taught.

Also, I'd like to congratulate Jason Allen on playing a pretty good game. :clap: (so far)

I'd have to watch the whole game.. I hope they replay it...

Imatexanfan
11-22-2010, 07:55 AM
IMO the DB's should know how to play the game when they get in a few years. Bump and run should be as same as breathing in oxygen as a CB. If you do not bump and run you are already beat in this league. The shuffling technique only works in the Cover 2 which the two safeties can shuffle from side to side until they see the particular WR break for a streak or fade. Once that happens start back peddling and open up. It's basically common sense why you don't have the technique down, really shouldn't be any excuse...:chickendance:

76Texan
11-22-2010, 10:57 AM
IMO the DB's should know how to play the game when they get in a few years. Bump and run should be as same as breathing in oxygen as a CB. If you do not bump and run you are already beat in this league. The shuffling technique only works in the Cover 2 which the two safeties can shuffle from side to side until they see the particular WR break for a streak or fade. Once that happens start back peddling and open up. It's basically common sense why you don't have the technique down, really shouldn't be any excuse...:chickendance:

Could you elaborate a little more?
I don't want to misunderstand the things you said. Thanks!

76Texan
11-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Technically, it should allow them to make a play on the ball. They are facing the QB, they should be watching the QB & the receiver.

I don't think it is this technique that is the "source" of our problems. I think it's that we have "fine" athletes, a talented bunch of guys, but not many football players.

It's as if they don't understand routes, don't study tendencies, don't anticipate the throw. It's usually not until the ball is caught, that our DBs & LBs make a break on the ball.

Surely that's not what is being taught.


I'd have to watch the whole game.. I hope they replay it...

IMO, it would take a lot of time to dig into all these.
Overall, one would imagine that in the long run, the more techniques you learn, the better the chance that you become a better defender.
However, there might be some guy who will never become comfortable with a certain technique. (In that case, it would be like the coaches trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.)

On the one hand, we're not the only team that teaches the shuffle technique.
Last year, I was looking into Sean Smith (Utah) during the draft and I noticed that he pretty much stayed with this technique in college.
So I watched a few Dolphins games (last year and this).
I saw that the Dolphins also get the other CBs to play some of this (including Vontae Davis whom I don't think had any such experience at Illinois.)

(BTW, Jason Allen was a #16 overall pick in 2006, but was known for his plays as a special teamer more than at DB.
I read that he played well in wk 1, and was MVP in week 2, and yet he was waived.
What a turn-around!)
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/10/1818681/allen-gets-his-chance-to-focus.html?asset_id=Dolphins%20First%20and%20Goal: %20Team%20chemistry&asset_type=html_module

At any rate, I watch them get burned by Rodgers (Packers) no matter what technique they use.

It's complicated to try to describe all the things a CB have to do.
Read the QB to see whethere he's in a 3-step drop, or 5, or 7, or something else.
In certain coverage he has to pay attention to another receiver besides his main threat.
He has to learn the route tree and try to recognize the route(s) that the various legible receivers are running.
He has to read his keys (deciphering whether it's a pass or a run play) so that he can come up for run support.

IMO, I wouldn't have young CBs playing with new techniques.
Rather, I would work with them individually to see what they are most comfortable with to refine those techniques first.
Then you start teaching them another technique and check with them to see whether they like it or not.
If they do well after a lot of practice then you can start incorporating it slowly on game day.
How soon I think should depend on each individual player.
However, as a coach, I think one should be more conservative than the player (who may be overconfident) and should remain patient, not letting the student try out something "live" too soon.
Because when he doesn't get success on the field, his confidence may be affected (deep in the back of his mind.)

Got to run!

silvrhand
11-22-2010, 01:49 PM
FYI, this is from last year and I think it's been posted here but in case it wasn't.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/3078/for-texans-cbs-out-with-backpedal-in-with-shuffle

devo-x
11-22-2010, 11:23 PM
The Texans secondary has been has been historically bad. Because of this, I was pleasantly surprised by the play of the secondary minus Brice McCain.

McCain seemed to get beat early and often. Sanchez's first touchdown pass occured when McCain gave a 5 yard cushion on the goal line to his man. Every time a big pass play occured (minus the last drive) It seemed McCain was at the losing end of it. The first of Holmes touchdowns came when Holmes beat McCain who then proceeded to fall down. Not that it mattered since he was a good 5 yards off coverage anyways.

I know the Texans secondary has been horrible this year but IMO McCain should not see another down unless we are in the quarter package. I would like to see Quin and Jackson continue to start and take their lumps with Allen in the Nickel and McManis in the dime.

I haven't taken the time to break down the coverage today but the eye test would leave me to believe that McCain gave up 150+ and 2 TD's in the least. Why he continued to cover Holmes well into the 4th quarter astounds me.

I realize this is more of a rant than anything but I figured this was the best place for it. With other Texan fans who care as much about this team as I do and watch as much as I do. I'd love to hear others thoughts on this game in general as well as the specifics of McCain's suckage.


http://www.battleredblog.com/2010/11/21/1828697/brice-mccain

Thoughts?

ChampionTexan
11-23-2010, 01:22 AM
I would assume the technique is the same - or very similar - to what Gibbs was coaching in his two years as Broncos DB coach, and his three years as Chiefs DB coach. In three of those five years, his defenses finished in the top 6 in fewest passing yards allowed. However, it's interesting to note that his second year in Denver was Champ Bailey's first year there, and in his first two years in KC, he had Patrick Surtain and Ty Law playing for him. He was coaching seasoned, experienced players. His final year in KC (2008) he had two rookies at starting CB, and the Chiefs finished 28th in passing yards allowed. They did manage to squeak into the top half of the league for passing TD's allowed.

That makes me believe that technique in and of itself isn't the biggest issue. More likely it's a toxic blend of youth/inexperience, a secondary in which the weaknesses of individual players are not diminished by the strengths of others, and a failure on the part of the defense as a whole to mask it's weaknesses and magnify the strengths. Unfortunately, the technique thing would be a whole lot quicker and easier to fix.

Yeah, that's coaching, but it's also symptomatic of a roster that's simply not well put together. It looks to me like the Texans put together a roster of defensive players rather than a defensive team, and I don't think the primary culprits for that are named David and Frank.

thunderkyss
11-23-2010, 09:01 AM
http://www.battleredblog.com/2010/11/21/1828697/brice-mccain

Thoughts?

I was actually thinking the same thing. I don't see Kareem Jackson as much of a problem as Brice McCain. It would have made more sense to play Quin & Jackson the way they had been playing, & bring Allen in on nickel..... still moving Quin inside (sooner or later, they'll blitz him).

I don't care to see McCain ever again. If they feel KJ needs to come out for a down or so, throw Allen in then, but he should be our primary nickel, taking over for Brice McCain.

mridge01
11-23-2010, 03:43 PM
When David Gibbs was first hired, he implemented a new technique for the cornerbacks. Rather than the traditional backpedal, they shuffle, which supposedly gives them a better opportunity to make a play.

However, it seems like this "technique" is the source of our troubles. When Santonio Holmes ran the slant route against Brice McCain, McCain was shuffling with his hips pointed the other direction, which slowed him down. And subsequently, the receiver beat him for a TD. Is this part of the reason why our secondary continues to struggle?

Also, I'd like to congratulate Jason Allen on playing a pretty good game. :clap: (so far)

You're dead on. Poor technique is a product of piss poor coaching. To be that badly out of position before the ball is snapped falls on the coaching staff 100%. Should the player know this, probably, but the coaches definitely should.

76Texan
11-24-2010, 01:53 PM
I would assume the technique is the same - or very similar - to what Gibbs was coaching in his two years as Broncos DB coach, and his three years as Chiefs DB coach. In three of those five years, his defenses finished in the top 6 in fewest passing yards allowed. However, it's interesting to note that his second year in Denver was Champ Bailey's first year there, and in his first two years in KC, he had Patrick Surtain and Ty Law playing for him. He was coaching seasoned, experienced players. His final year in KC (2008) he had two rookies at starting CB, and the Chiefs finished 28th in passing yards allowed. They did manage to squeak into the top half of the league for passing TD's allowed.

That makes me believe that technique in and of itself isn't the biggest issue. More likely it's a toxic blend of youth/inexperience, a secondary in which the weaknesses of individual players are not diminished by the strengths of others, and a failure on the part of the defense as a whole to mask it's weaknesses and magnify the strengths. Unfortunately, the technique thing would be a whole lot quicker and easier to fix.

Yeah, that's coaching, but it's also symptomatic of a roster that's simply not well put together. It looks to me like the Texans put together a roster of defensive players rather than a defensive team, and I don't think the primary culprits for that are named David and Frank.

I've been trying to look at all the different angles you mentioned and I found it extremely difficult to declare one way or another.

This alone is a very interesting point.
Alas, I think it would take a long time and a lot going back and forth if we hope to shed a light to the matter.

76Texan
11-24-2010, 02:20 PM
I was actually thinking the same thing. I don't see Kareem Jackson as much of a problem as Brice McCain. It would have made more sense to play Quin & Jackson the way they had been playing, & bring Allen in on nickel..... still moving Quin inside (sooner or later, they'll blitz him).

I don't care to see McCain ever again. If they feel KJ needs to come out for a down or so, throw Allen in then, but he should be our primary nickel, taking over for Brice McCain.

I think it would be good to rotate Quin, KJ, and Allen.
That way they can be fresh. (Other teams do that, some more, some less.)
I think McCain can be a situational sub.
It looks to me like Quin is a little better in the slot than on the outside.
KJ, I think he can do both.
Allen, I haven't seen enough of him to tell, but he can play outside.

Also, as I've discussed about the shuffle technique last year, I'm not a big fan of it except for the case of guys like Sean Smith whom I had mentioned earlier who obviously got real comfortable with it. (I think it's also because he's a bigger corner without the greatest hip flexibility for the back-pedal).

In this game, as well as others that I can recall, our CBs had been beaten due to this technique.
Things like:
- A receiver could be pressing hard on you (the CB) showing a go route; you open up your shuffle step a bit too much (two feet wide apart) to keep up with his speed. The receiver make a quick cut inside on a slant or stop for a comebacker. Your back foot is too far off your base for you to plant in order to change direction.
- Or he could be showing you an in-and-out move (or vice-versa).
On his first step, you cross one of your foot to follow him.
His second step is a T-step that would put him behind and past you pretty quickly.

I don't know how to describe it, but the defender has got to be very good at the technique to keep up with those receivers with great moves.
It can be fix (maybe), but how long would it take?

Think of doing the shuffle in basketball. It take years of practicing for a player to become efficient at it. Your feet can tangle with each other or you can cross your feet. In football, the receiver doesn't have to handle the ball on a dribble; it's much easier for him to get by you, don't you think?

76Texan
11-25-2010, 01:07 PM
I found something in an old Redskins playbook (1998) that is quite interesting concerning the technique:

Back Pedal or Shuffle.
We have no requirements whether you use a shuffle or back pedal.
It's a choice of which is comfortable and better for you.
However, everyone should experiment with both to see if one could be better suited for you.