PDA

View Full Version : Tear up the Script


CloakNNNdagger
11-17-2010, 08:43 PM
Scripted plays was something developed back when by Walsh. Fifteen plays were scripted at the beginning of the game to "feel out" the defenses. Today some teams still use a variation of this theme. However, with all the changes in the game, if 3rd down looks don't appear promising or if the direction of the defense seems to be heralding destruction, smart teams will readily break from their scripts........adjusting accordingly and early. To do anything else is suicidal...........enter Kubiak and the Texans. It has been revealed that Kubiak has allowed Schaub one alternate option "just in case." One alternate option can't consistently adjust when you're getting your head repeated beaten in. Real-time decisions, whether by Schaub or Kubiak (thru helmet communication) are necessary to be able to adjust properly and promptly when necessary. There is no way that this script subborness is not at least in great part responsible for our inability to score in the first half. We are not only outdated but our coaches are either afraid to or incapable of "thinking on the fly." With so many questionable and nonsensical past recurrent on-the-field decisions, the latter is not far-fetched. Walsh had a good idea back then.........Since then, the game has evolved.........Unfortunately, Kubiak has us stuck in a time warp.


Originally Published: December 15, 2007
By John Clayton
ESPN.com

Early blitzes countering 'scripted-play' strategies (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3155267)

Defenses this season are willing to take more chances with blitzes on early possessions, their way of forcing offenses to move away from the standard 15-play "script" most


[For years, Peyton Manning's Colts were among the NFL's leaders in first-possession scoring. This year the Colts rank 12th in that stat as defenses have become more aggressive earlier in games.]

San Francisco 49ers Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh popularized the idea of scripting the first 15 plays of each game.

For the past three decades, many coaches have copied Walsh's script idea. It made sense. As teams got to the end of the week, coaches put together a script that would keep defenses guessing. The plan stressed execution. Quarterbacks and offensive players had a couple of nights to study the script, visualize the successful plays and start the game with a positive tempo.

Fast starts were important to Walsh. He built his great 49ers teams with the idea of getting two scores in the first couple of drives. Working with a 10-0 or 14-0 lead, Walsh then made sure he had enough pass-rushers to pressure a quarterback into mistakes and take opponents out of their rushing attacks.

But even the great Bill Walsh would have difficulty in 2007, when defensive coaches have tried to ruin offensive scripts by using more aggressive blitzes earlier in games.

Offenses that script plays -- especially West Coast attacks such as Seattle, Denver, Green Bay and Philadelphia -- want to get into a good rhythm early in games The idea is to get a long, eight-play touchdown drive mixing in passes and runs and not necessarily a quick-strike score. But defenses have faced that script so long now that they know most of the good teams aren't going to take too many risks in the first quarter while they're working off their scripts.

So defenses this season are willing to take more chances with blitzes on early possessions. Defensive coordinators tested the plan in the preseason, and there has been a carry-over into the regular season. Early blitzes throw off the timing of scripted teams and can create turnovers.

Seattle coach Mike Holmgren admits it's hard to go off the script and go deep against blitzes because no offense wants to start the game with a mistake. That's what happened to Green Bay when Brett Favre was intercepted early in a Week 13 loss to Dallas. Defensive coaches know few West Coast teams are going to throw high-risk passes early in games.

Even the Colts' Peyton Manning is feeling the early heat. Manning adjusts his calls at the line of scrimmage based on what he sees in pre-snap reads. Although it's not advisable to blitz Manning, it's not as risky in the first two possessions when he's testing his play calls and probably isn't going to attack deep.

Consequently, the Colts, who have led the league in first-possession scoring, are 12th this season. In 13 games, they have four touchdown drives and only 27 points on opening drives.

The Seahawks are eighth with 31 opening-drive points. The Broncos are fifth with 34. The Eagles are 11th with 28. The Packers are tied for 21st with 17.

Although the Colts might be down a score or two in the first quarter, Manning doesn't panic. He'll study still pictures of defensive alignments on the sideline and work on his adjustments with offensive coordinator Tom Moore.

By the third series, Manning and most of the top quarterbacks seem to figure out the opponent's plan and attack those weaknesses.

To no one's surprise, the best team on opening drives in 2007 is the Patriots, who don't script plays. They lead the league with 61 points -- seven touchdown drives and four field goals.

Bill Belichick has Tom Brady come out in three- and four-receiver sets and is willing to throw deep to Randy Moss at any time. For the Patriots, it's all about scoring this season. Unlike most teams, they aren't concerned about trying to set up the running game.

Their goal is to get as many points on an opponent as fast as possible, then get the ball back to score more. Sure, that strategy has been criticized as running up the score, but Belichick has a good reason for the plan: New England's defense has holes.

The linebacking corps is old, and it tends to wear down later in games. If a back slips by the defensive line, he could turn a short run into a long one. The Patriots must open big early leads because their defense could lose steam in the second half. Their formula should result in a perfect season.

Of course, offensive coaches will adjust. They will study the early-game blitzes and come up with more aggressive plays in the scripts. It all makes for fun football.

JB
11-17-2010, 09:06 PM
Wow! From 12/15/07. But it sure seems like it was talking about our offense this year...

Texan_Bill
11-17-2010, 09:15 PM
I agree with tearing up a 10 or 15 play set script. I am not against scripting a scenario of plays. What I mean is, rather than have a straight line script, have a script that's more like a flow chart. I.E. start with the run, run again. If they play both plays a certain way or differently. Come out and throw the ball and see how they react. See how they wanna play you. It shouldn't take 10 to 15 set plays, irrespective of the defense to run plays that you scripted during the week... Have, structure, but have a flow to see where they go.


Coaches nowadays have these huge laminated play sheets with many, many plays... ****ing use them.

/END rant!

Txn_in_Oki
11-17-2010, 09:17 PM
What I find interesting in the article is the discussion about the 2007 Patriots and their tendency to score as fast and often as possible. Due to what? Holes in defense that could be exploited by the opposing team.

I understand that the Texans offense has injury issues right now, but a trend here has always seemed to be a lack of killer instinct and the desire to blow teams out as quickly as possible.

By no means is this team the 2000-anything Pats, but c'mon... at some point you have to see that what you are doing is not working.

thunderkyss
11-17-2010, 09:20 PM
Wow! From 12/15/07. But it sure seems like it was talking about our offense this year...

It is strange, last year we didn't have the issues we have now. Last year we were pretty good on opening drives & first Qtr points.

thunderkyss
11-17-2010, 09:24 PM
I agree with tearing up a 10 or 15 play set script. I am not against scripting a scenario of plays. What I mean is, rather than have a straight line script, have a script that's more like a flow chart. I.E. start with the run, run again. If they play both plays a certain way or differently. Come out and throw the ball and see how they react. See how they wanna play you. It shouldn't take 10 to 15 set plays, irrespective of the defense to run plays that you scripted during the week... Have, structure, but have a flow to see where they go.


Coaches nowadays have these huge laminated play sheets with many, many plays... ****ing use them.

/END rant!

4,770 yards. 7th highest passing total ever...... accomplished the same year this article was written......

JB
11-17-2010, 09:35 PM
It is strange, last year we didn't have the issues we have now. Last year we were pretty good on opening drives & first Qtr points.

So why do you think we are having the issues this year? We have a much better running game. Our play action ought to be much better. Our explosiveness should be much better. But it's not.

Rey
11-17-2010, 09:45 PM
4,770 yards. 7th highest passing total ever...... accomplished the same year this article was written......

It's one thing to have a break out season, but to have dominant performances year in and year out is something that elite level players accomplish.

Schaub is not that kind of player.

There have been many QB's that come out and have great seasons and somewhat dwindle down in the future. John Kitna, Matt Hassleback....These are just two that immediately come to my mind.

I'm not sure what makes Schaub any different. He had a good season last year...he threw the ball more than anybody else and he had more yards than anyone else.

We have one...maybe two elite level players on this offense...

AJ, and Foster...

We don't have that elite level QB so I don't think we can expect that kind of offensive consistency...

thunderkyss
11-17-2010, 09:54 PM
It's one thing to have a break out season, but to have dominant performances year in and year out is something that elite level players accomplish.

Schaub is not that kind of player.

There have been many QB's that come out and have great seasons and somewhat dwindle down in the future. John Kitna, Matt Hassleback....These are just two that immediately come to my mind.

I'm not sure what makes Schaub any different. He had a good season last year...he threw the ball more than anybody else and he had more yards than anyone else.

We have one...maybe two elite level players on this offense...

AJ, and Foster...

We don't have that elite level QB so I don't think we can expect that kind of offensive consistency...

This thread is about tearing up the script, that teams are blitzing to mess up the script.

But this article was written last year, when our script helped us to the 7th highest passing total in NFL history.

This isn't about Schaub, it's about the script.

thunderkyss
11-17-2010, 10:01 PM
So why do you think we are having the issues this year? We have a much better running game. Our play action ought to be much better. Our explosiveness should be much better. But it's not.

AJ took a step last year..... he didn't drop nothing..... he bulled people out of his way, he carried people across the goal line... he gave new meaning to the word "Beast"

Matt Schaub became a play maker. improvising, creating, commanding.

JJ became a playmaker, a serious, dependable threat.

****

Now, AJ is dropping balls. I think he's playing hurt, & playing well, considering... but he's not that beast we saw last year.

Schaub is back to square one. If the play isn't there, throw it away, even on third down.

JJ has clearly taken a step back, & should be behind David Anderson on the depth chart.

Winston looks almost as bad as he did his rookie year.

****

I have no idea what is going on....... no idea why.....

Texan_Bill
11-17-2010, 10:02 PM
This thread is about tearing up the script, that teams are blitzing to mess up the script.

But this article was written last year, when our script helped us to the 7th highest passing total in NFL history.

This isn't about Schaub, it's about the script.

I'm not sure, and I hate to correct you, but I believe it was the 6th highest passing total in NFL history.... I could be wrong. AND yes, this thread is about tearing up the whole "script" approach.

CloakNNNdagger
11-17-2010, 10:09 PM
You stick with the same script long enough and a smart D coach will figure you out and make adjustments..........something we have had problems with not just this year, but for years. Is it that much to remember the long standing complaints of this team never being able to consistently put together 2 good halves? This year, last year, years past. Doesn't matter how many yards you put out if they don't usually lead to touch downs. If you lose 15 plays, that could mean 5 possessions..........easily a loss of a whole half.

JB
11-17-2010, 10:12 PM
This thread is about tearing up the script, that teams are blitzing to mess up the script.

But this article was written last year, when our script helped us to the 7th highest passing total in NFL history.

This isn't about Schaub, it's about the script.

Wow! From 12/15/07. But it sure seems like it was talking about our offense this year...



Do you even bother to read the op's link?

thunderkyss
11-18-2010, 08:30 AM
You stick with the same script long enough and a smart D coach will figure you out and make adjustments..........something we have had problems with not just this year, but for years. Is it that much to remember the long standing complaints of this team never being able to consistently put together 2 good halves? This year, last year, years past. Doesn't matter how many yards you put out if they don't usually lead to touch downs. If you lose 15 plays, that could mean 5 possessions..........easily a loss of a whole half.

Nobody uses the same script twice.... it's a new script put together for each game, each week.

Last year, while we did have problems putting halves together, our opening drives were more consistently good than not. We scored as frequently as anyone on our first possession of the half.

thunderkyss
11-18-2010, 08:34 AM
Do you even bother to read the op's link?

I'm not arguing with the argument you made there.

This thread turned into a "tear up the script now" I was pointing out (because it looked as if some had not noticed the original post's link)... that the article's argument isn't conclusive as they skipped all around 2009's 4th ranked offense.


We may have been the exception to the rule, & it's finally caught up to us this year...

But the point still would have been that we successfully used the script to beat those early blitzes.

HOU-TEX
11-18-2010, 08:45 AM
This thread is about tearing up the script, that teams are blitzing to mess up the script.

But this article was written last year, when our script helped us to the 7th highest passing total in NFL history.

This isn't about Schaub, it's about the script.

Do you even bother to read the op's link?

I'm not arguing with the argument you made there.

This thread turned into a "tear up the script now" I was pointing out (because it looked as if some had not noticed the original post's link)... that the article's argument isn't conclusive as they skipped all around 2009's 4th ranked offense.


We may have been the exception to the rule, & it's finally caught up to us this year...

But the point still would have been that we successfully used the script to beat those early blitzes.

The article was written December 2007. I'm not sure where you got last year from.

Anywho, Kubiak will run his script and I can practically guarantee he'll come out throwing. Without going back to look, I beleive we've come out throwing the first series of every damn game this year. Hell, last season too.

The Jets tend to do exactly what the article mentions. They blitz the hell out of you to keep you off any type of rythm. Then they will pound the football until we submiss.

Hervoyel
11-18-2010, 09:02 AM
It's one thing to have a break out season, but to have dominant performances year in and year out is something that elite level players accomplish.

Schaub is not that kind of player.

There have been many QB's that come out and have great seasons and somewhat dwindle down in the future. John Kitna, Matt Hassleback....These are just two that immediately come to my mind.

I'm not sure what makes Schaub any different. He had a good season last year...he threw the ball more than anybody else and he had more yards than anyone else.

We have one...maybe two elite level players on this offense...

AJ, and Foster...

We don't have that elite level QB so I don't think we can expect that kind of offensive consistency...

This has been on my mind ever since Schaub wrapped up that very good 2009 campaign as the MVP of the Pro Bowl. "Great Player" or "Great Season"? I'm leaning towards the latter.

I have been worried that what we saw in 2009 wasn't going to be typical of Schaub all year. That was his best but he's not a great player. He makes mistakes that a Manning, Brady, or Brees would never make and he makes those mistakes too consistently for them to written off as anomalies.

I think of Schaub as just outside of the top ten QB's in the league. He'll have a great year every now and then that will put him in the top 5 but he's not consistently one of the 10 best QB's in the league. His accuracy is quesitonable a lot of the time and his arm is genuinely weak compared to the kind of guys he's typically compared to.

The biggest problem to me seems to be that he's a streaky passer who mostly seems to be focused and reliable when the stakes are really high. Before that though he's kind of all over the place.

Don't get me wrong, he's more or less good enough to win with. He's just not going to carry your team anywhere in particular on his own. Pretty low on our list of problems I think but still, to say our QB situation couldn't be upgraded would be a mistake. I don't think Schaub was, in hindsight worth a pair of 2's. I think we overpaid for him but I'm not upset or particularly critical about that. It was worth a shot.

Texans_Chick
11-18-2010, 09:12 AM
Actually, I think the biggest issues for the Texans is this.

They've been most effective with their offense when they increase the tempo and don't do too much pre-snap movement to get defenses thinking. They've done this to get more offensive snaps.

HOWEVER

They want to chew clock on offense because their defense is so bad. Increasing the offensive tempo better work or you are just turning the ball over faster.

I'm not sure what the Texans offensive game plan is going to be this week. Hurt Schaub. The Texans running game was not very effective in the first half against the Jaguars.

As for the use of the script, it is my understanding that the Shanahan-tree of script makers either stays very close to the script if it is working, or completely strays if the game plan is getting crushed. Really the purpose of the script is to see defensive tendencies (especially where the safeties are playing), and to use that information later in the game to blow defenses up.

Eric Winston said after the Jets game that he wishes that they got to face them again. Hmmm. I think that the Texans are going to have to play very patient ball but their defense may not give them that luxury.

Ole Miss Texan
11-18-2010, 09:13 AM
I agree with tearing up a 10 or 15 play set script. I am not against scripting a scenario of plays. What I mean is, rather than have a straight line script, have a script that's more like a flow chart. I.E. start with the run, run again. If they play both plays a certain way or differently. Come out and throw the ball and see how they react. See how they wanna play you. It shouldn't take 10 to 15 set plays, irrespective of the defense to run plays that you scripted during the week... Have, structure, but have a flow to see where they go.


Coaches nowadays have these huge laminated play sheets with many, many plays... ****ing use them.

/END rant!
I could be completely wrong so don't hold me to this... but I believe Kubiak goes the route you kind of suggest. I don't think he has print out of plays 1-15. I think he's got the first several series or plays scripted to an extent but that it's dependant on down and distance.
It's one thing to have a break out season, but to have dominant performances year in and year out is something that elite level players accomplish.
We have one...maybe two elite level players on this offense...

AJ, and Foster...

We don't have that elite level QB so I don't think we can expect that kind of offensive consistency...
Not to break from the point of the OP but I find it funny you mention elite players being the ones that excel year in and year out... yet you mention Foster who hasn't even played a full season yet.

Ole Miss Texan
11-18-2010, 09:19 AM
Actually, I think the biggest issues for the Texans is this.

They've been most effective with their offense when they increase the tempo and don't do too much pre-snap movement to get defenses thinking. They've done this to get more offensive snaps.

HOWEVER

They want to chew clock on offense because their defense is so bad. Increasing the offensive tempo better work or you are just turning the ball over faster.

I'm not sure what the Texans offensive game plan is going to be this week. Hurt Schaub. The Texans running game was not very effective in the first half against the Jaguars.

As for the use of the script, it is my understanding that the Shanahan-tree of script makers either stays very close to the script if it is working, or completely strays if the game plan is getting crushed. Really the purpose of the script is to see defensive tendencies (especially where the safeties are playing), and to use that information later in the game to blow defenses up.

Good post TC. I have that same feeling of quicker tempo being better for us yet at the same time we want to chew up the clock (or at least give our defense some real time to rest).

I also want the Texans to pound the ball with Foster early and often. This accomplishes winning T.O.P. and tires the opposing defenses more. Plus we're good at it. This SHOULD keep opposing teams from scoring as many points early in the game so that we'll "always be in it". If we get down early, that's when other defenses feel more relaxed and can pin their ears back and get after Schaub.

I agree too with what you mentioned about "scripted plays". I feel with this offense, a lot of what we do early on is setting the opposing defense up for the big plays AJ down the field.

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2010, 09:28 AM
The problem is that whether they follow "the script" or abandon the script, it shouldn't take a full half to "learn the defense's tendencies"...........and adjust. Slow learner students don't do well in school. Slow learner coaches don't do well in the NFL.

infantrycak
11-18-2010, 10:00 AM
I think of Schaub as just outside of the top ten QB's in the league.

Interesting. Yesterday two of the coaches people are clamoring for around here said Schaub was knocking on the door of elite - Billick and Gruden. I doubt either of them thinks there are ten elite QB's in the league.

To the original thread topic, kind of funny that the purpose of the Walsh script was a fast start and people are blaming scripting for slow starts. I don't think many folks even understand scripting as many are acting like there is a literal list of 15 plays to be run in that exact order. Down and distance are still taken into consideration. The blocking assignments still change based on what the D shows. It's more about trying to set up in certain formations and try out motion packages within the first 15 or so plays to see how the D is reacting with the intent being that they are chosen to exploit perceived tendencies from the opponent. D's can change their tendencies to throw that off. The Jets blitzing is not a change in their tendencies.

Blake
11-18-2010, 10:08 AM
Interesting. Yesterday two of the coaches people are clamoring for around here said Schaub was knocking on the door of elite - Billick and Gruden. I doubt either of them thinks there are ten elite QB's in the league.

Agreed. There are 4 elite QB's. Schaub should be around #7 or #8.

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rivers

The 7 on the cusp are Rogers, Ryan, Schaub, Ben Roe, Romo, Flacco and maybe Orton.

Texans_Chick
11-18-2010, 10:15 AM
Interesting. Yesterday two of the coaches people are clamoring for around here said Schaub was knocking on the door of elite - Billick and Gruden. I doubt either of them thinks there are ten elite QB's in the league.

To the original thread topic, kind of funny that the purpose of the Walsh script was a fast start and people are blaming scripting for slow starts. I don't think many folks even understand scripting as many are acting like there is a literal list of 15 plays to be run in that exact order. Down and distance are still taken into consideration. The blocking assignments still change based on what the D shows. It's more about trying to set up in certain formations and try out motion packages within the first 15 or so plays to see how the D is reacting with the intent being that they are chosen to exploit perceived tendencies from the opponent. D's can change their tendencies to throw that off. The Jets blitzing is not a change in their tendencies.

Yes. THIS.

The inconsistency of the offense has little to do I think with team's use of a script. Their third down performance when they've been struggling has been suckage.

I attribute that partly to: 1. The Jacoby Jones drop the ball experience. I'm sure over the course of the season, he hasn't done this a ton, but it feels like he is doing it at exactly the worst moment. 2. The TEs being able to get separation and being a dependable catch if the ball is a hard throw.

Double Barrel
11-18-2010, 10:30 AM
I could be completely wrong so don't hold me to this... but I believe Kubiak goes the route you kind of suggest. I don't think he has print out of plays 1-15. I think he's got the first several series or plays scripted to an extent but that it's dependant on down and distance.

Not to break from the point of the OP but I find it funny you mention elite players being the ones that excel year in and year out... yet you mention Foster who hasn't even played a full season yet.

According to an interview with Schaub the morning after the MNF Colts game, they stick to the script. That's why you see a stupid draw play on 3rd and long.

Interesting. Yesterday two of the coaches people are clamoring for around here said Schaub was knocking on the door of elite - Billick and Gruden. I doubt either of them thinks there are ten elite QB's in the league.

To the original thread topic, kind of funny that the purpose of the Walsh script was a fast start and people are blaming scripting for slow starts. I don't think many folks even understand scripting as many are acting like there is a literal list of 15 plays to be run in that exact order. Down and distance are still taken into consideration. The blocking assignments still change based on what the D shows. It's more about trying to set up in certain formations and try out motion packages within the first 15 or so plays to see how the D is reacting with the intent being that they are chosen to exploit perceived tendencies from the opponent. D's can change their tendencies to throw that off. The Jets blitzing is not a change in their tendencies.

That's the difference between a football genius like Walsh and a mediocre HC like Kubiak. And it's really not fair to compare the Texans to any 49ers team under Walsh, all things considered. About the only player we have that could be in the same company is AJ, and he's still second to Rice.

Now that the Texans have a solid RB, I think the glaring inability for this HC and QB to put together a balanced offensive gameplan is really starting to show. Spencer Tillman was talking on "Inside the Game" last week about Schaub's stats and inconsistent play when the running game is established. He said that he's a rhythm QB, so that's why he tends to excel when it comes down to a pass heavy gameplan. But he's very inconsistent when the offense needs to be balanced between run and pass plays. It was a very interesting analysis and one that I had not realized before he broke it down.

infantrycak
11-18-2010, 10:55 AM
According to an interview with Schaub the morning after the MNF Colts game, they stick to the script. That's why you see a stupid draw play on 3rd and long.

That doesn't mean they are in order play calls. They are down and distance dependent. Many coaches call draw plays on 3rd and long when they perceive a team over pursues particularly around the edges with their pass rush. We have been burnt on it several times.

That's the difference between a football genius like Walsh and a mediocre HC like Kubiak. And it's really not fair to compare the Texans to any 49ers team under Walsh, all things considered. About the only player we have that could be in the same company is AJ, and he's still second to Rice.

Wasn't comparing Walsh or the 49ers but scripting is credited to Walsh. The point was it has two purposes - fast start and gathering info on how the D is reacting to different formations and motions. Most teams since the Walsh 49ers have followed suit. People are acting like this is some strange aberration by Kubiak and it is not. The Texans may suck at it but scripting in and of itself is not the problem.

Ryan
11-18-2010, 10:57 AM
Agreed. There are 4 elite QB's. Schaub should be around #7 or #8.

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rivers

The 7 on the cusp are Rogers, Ryan, Schaub, Ben Roe, Romo, Flacco and maybe Orton.


I would drop Rivers and move up Big Ben. I definitely do not think Rivers is elite.

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2010, 11:12 AM
The bottom line is "Who is responsible for scripting?"..........Kubiak. "Who
is responsible for adjustments to the scripts that aren't working?"..........Kubiak. "Who is responsible for the consistently poor outcomes of the scripting and adjustments?..........Kubiak.

Double Barrel
11-18-2010, 11:24 AM
That doesn't mean they are in order play calls. They are down and distance dependent. Many coaches call draw plays on 3rd and long when they perceive a team over pursues particularly around the edges with their pass rush. We have been burnt on it several times.


Shaub did not give me the impression that the script was flexible. They specifically asked him about situational awareness - i.e. a draw on 3rd and long - and he says that they call because it was next on the list. I'm not sure how to interpret that statement other than it is what it is.

Wasn't comparing Walsh or the 49ers but scripting is credited to Walsh. The point was it has two purposes - fast start and gathering info on how the D is reacting to different formations and motions. Most teams since the Walsh 49ers have followed suit. People are acting like this is some strange aberration by Kubiak and it is not. The Texans may suck at it but scripting in and of itself is not the problem.

I know you weren't comparing teams (it would be a fruitless endeavor), but the idea that anything Walsh did successfully being applicable to Kubiak is where I was coming from. I've read about scripting for years, and to me it was a sign of a very deep thinker in Walsh who understood the big picture of fundamentals and complexities, so when they scripted plays, it was with specific agendas of scoring early and finding out details about the defensive game plan.

I do not sense any particular agenda with Kubiak, other than scripting plays because that's what he was taught. Sort of like memorizing multiplication tables but not really comprehending why numbers multiply the way that they do.

But, I'm biased after 4.5 seasons of Kubiak and I tend to see all his faults as glaring, so my perspective is obviously colored as a result. :whistle:

thunderkyss
11-18-2010, 12:21 PM
The bottom line is "Who is responsible for scripting?"..........Kubiak. "Who
is responsible for adjustments to the scripts that aren't working?"..........Kubiak. "Who is responsible for the consistently poor outcomes of the scripting and adjustments?..........Kubiak.

I find it hard to blame the script when the players are open, ball hits them in their hands, & they drop the ball. Had those passes been caught, we're still moving down the field, adhering to the script.

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2010, 01:08 PM
I find it hard to blame the script when the players are open, ball hits them in their hands, & they drop the ball. Had those passes been caught, we're still moving down the field, adhering to the script.


Seems to me that we see our share of players being open, balls hitting them in their hands and dropping of the balls.......in the second halves. Yet we are usually able to find ways to "overcome" much better.

Yankee_In_TX
11-18-2010, 01:10 PM
I agree with tearing up a 10 or 15 play set script. I am not against scripting a scenario of plays. What I mean is, rather than have a straight line script, have a script that's more like a flow chart.

Really? Really? You want the Denny's menu to get bigger?!

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Really? Really? You want the Denny's menu to get bigger?!

:spit::spit::spit:

Hervoyel
11-18-2010, 01:28 PM
Interesting. Yesterday two of the coaches people are clamoring for around here said Schaub was knocking on the door of elite - Billick and Gruden. I doubt either of them thinks there are ten elite QB's in the league.


I wasn't really thinking in terms of who was elite and who wasn't. I was just thinking that there are probably 10 QB's in the NFL today that I'd rather have than Schaub. That's speaking sheerly in terms of ability. Some of these guys I'm not big fans of as people but I would consider each one better than our guy at the moment.

Manning (Peyton)
Brady
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Manning (Eli)
Vick
Rogers
Ryan
Sanchez
Flacco
Cutler

Bradford looks set to join that list pretty soon too.


Yeah, that's about right. I'd take any of these guys before Schaub right now. That's just me though. 2-3 of them at the top are indeed "elite" but you could win with all of them. You can win with Matt too of course.

infantrycak
11-18-2010, 01:49 PM
I wasn't really thinking in terms of who was elite and who wasn't. I was just thinking that there are probably 10 QB's in the NFL today that I'd rather have than Schaub. That's speaking sheerly in terms of ability. Some of these guys I'm not big fans of as people but I would consider each one better than our guy at the moment.

Manning (Peyton)
Brady
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Manning (Eli)
Vick
Rogers
Ryan
Sanchez
Flacco
Cutler

Bradford looks set to join that list pretty soon too.


Yeah, that's about right. I'd take any of these guys before Schaub right now. That's just me though. 2-3 of them at the top are indeed "elite" but you could win with all of them. You can win with Matt too of course.

Not all of these were discussed. I believe their elite were the four which have been discussed - Manning, Brees, Brady and Rivers. Then they mentioned Ryan, Sanchez, Flacco and Cutler as guys one step down from Schaub. Schaub, Big Ben and Rogers were on the cusp. I missed if they said anything about Vick or Eli.

I wouldn't take Sanchez, Flacco or Cutler over Schaub. Maybe Ryan.

CloakNNNdagger
11-24-2010, 07:45 PM
Matt Schaub was interviewed on 610 the other day. He actually stated that not only are the 1st 15 plays of the 1st half scripted (as we have been told before), but the 1st 2 downs of the 1st 10 plays of the 2nd half are also scripted. This could further explain why the Texans don't seem to rev up their offense until the end of the game.........the only time when there is no scripting. The adjustments are certainly supposed to be made by the time they come out of the tunnel the 2nd time. The purpose of scripting, as we have discussed thus far, is for "feeling out" the defense for what will work against them and how they respond to our offense. How much feeling out (that almost sounds perverted) does this team need before beginning to think on the fly? They shouldn't need 3+ quarters to "figure it out." As such, it seems that this group of coaches would benefit from some extra remedial courses in "Coaching 101: What The H*ll am I Doing?" followed by "COACHING 102: What The H*ll am I supposed to do? "

HJam72
11-25-2010, 06:09 AM
I'm OK with the feeling up concept.

Surreal McCoy
11-25-2010, 06:55 AM
Matt Schaub was interviewed on 610 the other day. He actually stated that not only are the 1st 15 plays of the 1st half scripted (as we have been told before), but the 1st 2 downs of the 1st 10 plays of the 2nd half are also scripted. This could further explain why the Texans don't seem to rev up their offense until the end of the game.........the only time when there is no scripting. The adjustments are certainly supposed to be made by the time they come out of the tunnel the 2nd time. The purpose of scripting, as we have discussed thus far, is for "feeling out" the defense for what will work against them and how they respond to our offense. How much feeling out (that almost sounds perverted) does this team need before beginning to think on the fly? They shouldn't need 3+ quarters to "figure it out." As such, it seems that this group of coaches would benefit from some extra remedial courses in "Coaching 101: What The H*ll am I Doing?" followed by "COACHING 102: What The H*ll am I supposed to do? "

I'll paraphrase for you, he said they "script" the first few plays of the second half based on what they liked from the first half and how they think they can exploit those matchups with certain plays in the 2nd half. It doesn't mean run play #1, #2, #3 in that order no matter what the defense shows.

I don't understand how so many of you can read what Infantry wrote and come to the conclusion the scripts are etched in stone not to be diverted from. It really makes me question how someone as simple as me can understand the concept of "scripting" yet so many others can't.

Then again, at this point it's more a contest to see who can complain the most so I guess it's to be expected :fingergun:

HJam72
11-25-2010, 07:36 AM
I'll paraphrase for you, he said they "script" the first few plays of the second half based on what they liked from the first half and how they think they can exploit those matchups with certain plays in the 2nd half. It doesn't mean run play #1, #2, #3 in that order no matter what the defense shows.

I don't understand how so many of you can read what Infantry wrote and come to the conclusion the scripts are etched in stone not to be diverted from. It really makes me question how someone as simple as me can understand the concept of "scripting" yet so many others can't.

Then again, at this point it's more a contest to see who can complain the most so I guess it's to be expected :fingergun:

OMG, the script is even etched in stone!

thunderkyss
11-25-2010, 09:06 AM
He actually stated that not only are the 1st 15 plays of the 1st half scripted (as we have been told before), but the 1st 2 downs of the 1st 10 plays of the 2nd half are also scripted. This could further explain why the Texans don't seem to rev up their offense until the end of the game........."

There are several reasons for scripting, part of it is also to keep Matt & the offense comfortable & confident in what they are doing.

Did you also hear Matt comment on the offensive adjustments & audibles? I think what happened in those games where we are way off balance, is that Matt checked to a run, it didn't work, so then we're in 2nd & long or 3rd & long, and our offensive teams are more comfortable throwing in those situations, which may be why we aren't as balanced as we'd like to be, or why we don't run as often as we think we should.

We couldn't run against the Giants, I thought maybe we weren't as good as we thought we were. Paper Tiger & all that. However we ran well against the Chargers & the Jets, so I'm thinking that wasn't the problem.

CloakNNNdagger
11-25-2010, 01:35 PM
I'll paraphrase for you, he said they "script" the first few plays of the second half based on what they liked from the first half and how they think they can exploit those matchups with certain plays in the 2nd half. It doesn't mean run play #1, #2, #3 in that order no matter what the defense shows.

I don't understand how so many of you can read what Infantry wrote and come to the conclusion the scripts are etched in stone not to be diverted from. It really makes me question how someone as simple as me can understand the concept of "scripting" yet so many others can't.

Then again, at this point it's more a contest to see who can complain the most so I guess it's to be expected :fingergun:

I am "simple" also, maybe even on the retarded side. I understand and ascribe to "scripting" as Infantrycak described it. But in the interview Schaub specifically distinguished the 1st 2 downs from the 3rd and 4th downs, in that the latter had liberal and open "literary license."

thunderkyss
11-25-2010, 02:25 PM
I am "simple" also, maybe even on the retarded side. I understand and ascribe to "scripting" as Infantrycak described it. But in the interview Schaub specifically distinguished the 1st 2 downs from the 3rd and 4th downs, in that the latter had liberal and open "literary license."

even so, imo, it's rare, if at all, that I see a play that was just doomed to failure from the get go.

Our failure to stay on the field has been a receiver not catching the ball more times than not.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 05:09 AM
even so, imo, it's rare, if at all, that I see a play that was just doomed to failure from the get go.

Our failure to stay on the field has been a receiver not catching the ball more times than not.

Yup. Belichek passed on most 3rd and short (even 3rd and 1 in their own half) situation yesterday vs the Lions. Of course he's a genius because the plays worked: i.e., the receivers caught the ball.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 08:42 AM
Yup. Belichek passed on most 3rd and short (even 3rd and 1 in their own half) situation yesterday vs the Lions. Of course he's a genius because the plays worked: i.e., the receivers caught the ball.

Belichick doesn't subscribe to scripting of plays. He's considered a "genius" as a great on-the-fly free-thinking head coach mind.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 08:44 AM
Belichick doesn't subscribe to scripting of plays. He's considered a "genius" as a great on-the-fly free-thinking head coach mind.


Ahhh so Kubiak scripts the entire game now? Good grief.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 08:50 AM
He's considered a "genius" as a great on-the-fly free-thinking head coach mind.
Sort of like Rainman...but in sweats.

http://amansworldco.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/belichick_sweatshirt.jpg

infantrycak
11-26-2010, 08:53 AM
Belichick doesn't subscribe to scripting of plays.

Where have you seen that Belichick doesn't script any plays?

Lucky
11-26-2010, 08:53 AM
Ahhh so Kubiak scripts the entire game now? Good grief.
9 posts, all Kubiak apologies or rationalizations. I'm impressed with the consistency.

infantrycak
11-26-2010, 08:58 AM
9 posts, all Kubiak apologies or rationalizations. I'm impressed with the consistency.

Not a surprising reaction for someone walking into an environment where it has become fashionable to see who can out Texans and out Kubiak hate everyone else.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 08:59 AM
Where have you seen that Belichick doesn't script any plays?
Here's a transcript of a radio interview (http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2010/10/22/bill-belichick-qa-1022/) of Belichick, where he discusses scripting plays:

Q: A lot of teams script the first 10 or 15 plays on offense. Is that something you guys do?
BB: I think that’s kind of a West Coast thing. Coach [Mike] Holmgren and a lot of his disciples really popularized that. I’ve never been in that system, but from what I know about it, that’s kind of a pretty disciplined script: play one, play two, play three. I think the thing that you have to take into consideration is the situations. Do you want to call the same play on first-and-15 that you want to call on second-and-one? Do you want to call the same play on third-and-six that you want to call on second-and-four? If you follow the script then, ‘Ok, here’s the fourth play.’ But would you really want to call that play in that situation or would you rather call your second-and-short play in second-and-short and your third-and-long play in third-and-long? It’s a couple different philosophies on that. There’s merit to both of them. I’ve don’t it both ways. At times, we’ve said, ‘Ok, this is what we want to do sequentially.’ Other times we’ve said, ‘The first time it’s second-and-long, this is what we’re going to call. The first time it’s second-and-short, this is what we’re going to call.’ It’s not the same play. I think there is a place for both. It’s really kind of a philosophy of either how you want to start the game or how you want to start a particular game with your sequence of call. Again, that’s usually an end of the week decision – Thursday, Friday, Saturday. You’ve practiced everything. Here’s how it looks. Here’s what our comfort level is of calling the plays with our players and our team and then you make the decision of, ‘Ok, this is what it’s going to be.’ But again, the same thing; last year against Baltimore we started off the game and recovered a fumble and we got the ball at the 15-yard line. So what play do you want to call there? The first play of your script or your 15-yard line play or your first play after a turnover? You’ve just kind of got to decide how you want to handle those situations because it isn’t always that clean how it comes up.

infantrycak
11-26-2010, 09:03 AM
Thank you. So genius Belicheck just described two different philosophies for scripting. It isn't he doesn't script it is he scripts in the looser fashion. If our understanding of Schaub's description is accurate Kubiak has blended the two systems.

Joe Texan
11-26-2010, 09:06 AM
I have been a firm believer that the slow starts are dew to the scripting of plays, Now I trouble my mind into thinking what is the defense problem, they must script cover two all game

Lucky
11-26-2010, 09:10 AM
Thank you. So genius Belicheck just described two different philosophies for scripting. It isn't he doesn't script it is he scripts in the looser fashion. If Schaub's description is accurate Kubiak has blended the two systems.
I think Belichick is saying that he has a list of plays per down & distance, and situation. I don't think he's saying that he's sequencing plays to determine how the opponent will react. Though, all coaches will (or should) remember how an opponent reacted to a given play.

The goal should be to move the ball and score points. Whether it's done with or without a script is irrelevant. I think most fans are saying, "Score early, get a lead, and take some pressure off this horrendous defense". How it's done isn't material.

JB
11-26-2010, 09:11 AM
Thank you. So genius Belicheck just described two different philosophies for scripting. It isn't he doesn't script it is he scripts in the looser fashion. If our understanding of Schaub's description is accurate Kubiak has blended the two systems.

That's how I read it. He still scripts plays, just in a bit different fashion.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 09:20 AM
I have been a firm believer that the slow starts are dew...
I think they're dew-dew, myself. But, I may be all wet.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 09:26 AM
I think Belichick is saying that he has a list of plays per down & distance, and situation. I don't think he's saying that he's sequencing plays to determine how the opponent will react. Though, all coaches will (or should) remember how an opponent reacted to a given play.

The goal should be to move the ball and score points. Whether it's done with or without a script is irrelevant. I think most fans are saying, "Score early, get a lead, and take some pressure off this horrendous defense". How it's done isn't material.


Thanks for the link...........I was just about to post it, when I came back and saw that you had already found it. To me, it also seems that Belichick follows more of an algorithm approach.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 09:29 AM
Not a surprising reaction for someone walking into an environment where it has become fashionable to see who can out Texans and out Kubiak hate everyone else.

And they wonder why the rest of country recognizes Houston as fair-weather fan capital. To each his own I say, but some facts are undeniable.

infantrycak
11-26-2010, 09:30 AM
I think Belichick is saying that he has a list of plays per down & distance, and situation. I don't think he's saying that he's sequencing plays to determine how the opponent will react.

Every coach has a list of plays per down and distance. Their Denny's menu that everyone loves to make fun of despite how inane the comment is since all coaches have them. I think what Belichick is saying is of the ten plays for each down and distance listed he marks them 1, 2, 3 for that down and distance as the initial script. He doesn't call a 2nd & 8 play when the down and distance is 4th & 2. The extreme other stance is literally choosing 15 plays to run no matter what the down and distance (and let's face it this isn't reality - Bill Walsh did not call a 50 yard bomb on 4th and inches because it was play #8 on the script). I don't believe that is what the Texans run either. They would like to take specific shots on 1st down certainly and if Schaub was correctly interpreted 2nd down as well. After that it's down and distance. We're basically talking about a difference maybe on what to do on 2nd down between what we do and Belichick does.

The goal should be to move the ball and score points. Whether it's done with or without a script is irrelevant. I think most fans are saying, "Score early, get a lead, and take some pressure off this horrendous defense". How it's done isn't material.

The bold is all I have been saying. Fans are pissed with poor results so everything that goes into those results must suck. Scripting is just a scapegoat.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 09:34 AM
Where have you seen that Belichick doesn't script any plays?

That was taken from the article I originally posted to start off the thread.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 09:41 AM
The bold is all I have been saying. Fans are pissed with poor results so everything that goes into those results must suck. Scripting is just a scapegoat.

Maybe, not a scapegoat, but rather just another rock, among so many, that's helping to sink the ship.

Whatever it is, it's not working very well. And the confidence in Kubiak in a chess game with a Belichick or any other number of coaches has had to come under reasonable question.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 09:42 AM
And they wonder why the rest of country recognizes Houston as fair-weather fan capital.
Houston is a smorgasbord of sports fan loyalty, due (am I saying that right?) to their varying origins.

But, I think you're mischaracterizing what is going on with the anti-Kubiak movement. This stems from fans who have been with this team since its inception who are weary of the same mistakes. Stability is great. When you have something that's working. When it's broke, it needs to be fixed. What we have now is broke. Some think all that's needed is a tune-up. Others see a major overhaul.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 10:04 AM
Houston is a smorgasbord of sports fan loyalty, due (am I saying that right?) to their varying origins.

But, I think you're mischaracterizing what is going on with the anti-Kubiak movement. This stems from fans who have been with this team since its inception who are weary of the same mistakes. Stability is great. When you have something that's working. When it's broke, it needs to be fixed. What we have now is broke. Some think all that's needed is a tune-up. Others see a major overhaul.

It's not anti-Kubiak, or anti-Adelman, or anti-Drayton. Houstonians are not as cosmopolitan as you think and have a long standing tradition of only backing winners. Which of course, due to our city's history means not much backing has happened at all. Oh, and before you trot out the story about fans filling the Astrodome for the Oilers upon losing just put that in perspective to all the Oiler games that were blacked out. I'll give you a hint, it was well more than a handful.

PS - You can call me a tune-upper then. I think the offense is more than serviceable. The defense is obviously indefensable. However, I think it can be fixed without changing the offense, which I believe changing the entire staff would guarantee.

infantrycak
11-26-2010, 10:04 AM
But, I think you're mischaracterizing what is going on with the anti-Kubiak movement. This stems from fans who have been with this team since its inception who are weary of the same mistakes.

I 100% endorse this. Most of the posters on this MB are long history, die hard Texans fans. Everyone agrees some things need fixed. Not everyone agrees on what needs to be done to fix them. But for the most part the posters here are not bandwagon at all. I'm not talking about Houstonians generally but the fans here.

Maybe, not a scapegoat, but rather just another rock, among so many, that's helping to sink the ship.

Whatever it is, it's not working very well. And the confidence in Kubiak in a chess game with a Belichick or any other number of coaches has had to come under reasonable question.

Understood and that comment wasn't directed at you, but every ship carries ballast stones and as a good thing without which they would not sail or sail long.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 10:22 AM
Houstonians are not as cosmopolitan as you think and have a long standing tradition of only backing winners. Which of course, due to our city's history means not much backing has happened at all.
Thanks for the lesson regarding Houstonians. I've only lived in Houston for 30 years:

1965-1970
1974-1990
2001-2010

I was at the Astrodome for the Astros and Oilers. At Hofheinz Pavillion for the Rockets. At the Coliseum for the Aeros. I was at the Astrodome when the Oilers returned from Pittsburgh. Both times. I watched the Summit being built. I paid to watch Sampson & Olajuwon scrimmage in 1984. I was at the airport when the Rockets returned from LA after Sampson's miracle shot. I saw Mike Scott's no-hitter to clinch the pennant in the same year. So, I really need a lesson on who Houston sports fans are. Thanks for your help.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the lesson regarding Houstonians. I've only lived in Houston for 30 years:

1965-1970
1974-1990
2001-2010

I was at the Astrodome for the Astros and Oilers. At Hofheinz Pavillion for the Rockets. At the Coliseum for the Aeros. I was at the Astrodome when the Oilers returned from Pittsburgh. Both times. I watched the Summit being built. I paid to watch Sampson & Olajuwon scrimmage in 1984. I was at the airport when the Rockets returned from LA after Sampson's miracle shot. I saw Mike Scott's no-hitter to clinch the pennant in the same year. So, I really need a lesson on who Houston sports fans are. Thanks for your help.

There's an exception for every rule. And you're welcome ;)

JB
11-26-2010, 10:29 AM
There's an exception for every rule. And you're welcome ;)

I don't think it is an exception at all.

thunderkyss
11-26-2010, 10:36 AM
Here's a transcript of a radio interview (http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2010/10/22/bill-belichick-qa-1022/) of Belichick, where he discusses scripting plays:
Q: A lot of teams script the first 10 or 15 plays on offense. Is that something you guys do?
BB: I think thatís kind of a West Coast thing. Coach [Mike] Holmgren and a lot of his disciples really popularized that. Iíve never been in that system, but from what I know about it, thatís kind of a pretty disciplined script: play one, play two, play three. I think the thing that you have to take into consideration is the situations. Do you want to call the same play on first-and-15 that you want to call on second-and-one? Do you want to call the same play on third-and-six that you want to call on second-and-four? If you follow the script then, ĎOk, hereís the fourth play.í But would you really want to call that play in that situation or would you rather call your second-and-short play in second-and-short and your third-and-long play in third-and-long? Itís a couple different philosophies on that. Thereís merit to both of them. Iíve donít it both ways. At times, weíve said, ĎOk, this is what we want to do sequentially.í Other times weíve said, ĎThe first time itís second-and-long, this is what weíre going to call. The first time itís second-and-short, this is what weíre going to call.í Itís not the same play. I think there is a place for both. Itís really kind of a philosophy of either how you want to start the game or how you want to start a particular game with your sequence of call. Again, thatís usually an end of the week decision Ė Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Youíve practiced everything. Hereís how it looks. Hereís what our comfort level is of calling the plays with our players and our team and then you make the decision of, ĎOk, this is what itís going to be.í But again, the same thing; last year against Baltimore we started off the game and recovered a fumble and we got the ball at the 15-yard line. So what play do you want to call there? The first play of your script or your 15-yard line play or your first play after a turnover? Youíve just kind of got to decide how you want to handle those situations because it isnít always that clean how it comes up.


Sounds a lot like what Kubiak has said over & over & over again. Here's one instance from a radio interview (http://boards.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=334112&postcount=25)

How many plays do you script out?

I script out 15 plays. Matt knows about them on Friday afternoon. Rest of the players know on Saturday. When you're on a script, you may have 15 plays scripted, and you can run 2 plays scripted but if it's 3rd and 12, you can get off of that. It can change.


That's after the Raiders game, & he's said it many times before. Some want to make it sound like he's a strict disciplinarian when it comes to the script & calling plays. But that's just not the case.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't think it is an exception at all.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Houston is well known (outside of Houston of course) for being a luke-warm sports town at best. We can not like it all we want, but you can name a bare handful of episodes of support when there are too many cases to count of Houstonians giving up on their teams. Blackouts, Choke City, empty dome, that's our heritage whether we like it or not. If not for the Rockets we would be the capital of losing.

JB
11-26-2010, 11:05 AM
Then you haven't been paying attention. Houston is well known (outside of Houston of course) for being a luke-warm sports town at best. We can not like it all we want, but you can name a bare handful of episodes of support when there are too many cases to count of Houstonians giving up on their teams. Blackouts, Choke City, empty dome, that's our heritage whether we like it or not. If not for the Rockets we would be the capital of losing.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing the point that there are many die-hards for all of our teams here. However, Houston does not have nearly as high a percentage of natives that most cities do. Houston is the second (at best) team for a huge part of the population.


That being said, the Texans have sold out every game even through all the terrible seasons. I don't think that will change in the near future. The Texans are the newcomer that all Houstonians can identify with.

And I dispute your assertment that Houston is known as a "luke warm" sports town.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 11:14 AM
Blackouts...
The Oilers did not sell season tickets as well as the Texans have. One reason was the Astrodome, where 80% of the seats were outside of the 20-yard line. It was a baseball stadium where football was played.

Bud Adams generally refused to buy up any remaining tickets. Sometimes, KPRC would pickup the tab so they could show the game. Sometime they didn't. By the time Sunday would roll around, the tickets would be sold. That's when a not-so-wealthy young man could buy a SRO ticket for $10 and get into the game. That was my M.O. and I got to see a lot of Oilers games that way.

Just trying to set the record straight...

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 11:31 AM
The Oilers did not sell season tickets as well as the Texans have.

Just trying to set the record straight...

And there's good reason for that:

1. The Oilers experienced long bouts of mediocre play. In general they had several more seasons where they were unsuccessful in the NFL than people wish to remember.

2. Many were happy to see Bud leave (I would have driven him out of town myself) but didn't anticipate what the loss of an NFL team meant. I think a lot of the season ticket sales for the Texans are resultant from that - it's certainly not because they've had anything resembling success. That said, the Texans have probably received the best support of any losing sports team this city has ever endured. And I will submit, people like you and JB are the exceptions to the rule as evidenced by massive post counts. That fact you bother to post shows you've a much keener interest than most. So while you both have probably paid your dues with regard to supporting Houston teams, I think it's very safe to say you guys are more than the average fan.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 11:34 AM
I think it's very safe to say you guys are more than the average fan.
Indeed. I'm suggesting that JB and I aren't as lonely as you would suggest.

JB
11-26-2010, 11:38 AM
You also have to remember that Fud never tried to establish a fan friendly franchise. No tailgating, high prices for crappy concessions and no flexiblity in season ticket packages iirc.

And still, the tickets got sold, even if it was too late to avoid a blackout.

Lucky
11-26-2010, 11:42 AM
high prices for crappy concessions....
Some traditions die hard.

JB
11-26-2010, 11:44 AM
Some traditions die hard.

Yeah, I guess that is pretty common. But you got to admit that the tailgaiting mitigates that factor somewhat. And the concessions at Reliant are light years ahead of what the Dome had.

steelbtexan
11-26-2010, 11:46 AM
The script reads like this the offense scores very few points in the 1st three qtrs. Then after Kubes gets it figured out they may score some points on the opposing defense that has loosened up. Because they dont want to give up a big play while playing with a big lead.

Bottom line- They use some form of the script for the 1st 3 qtrs and stink as an offense. Then Kubes takes his hands off the wheel a little and presto the offense starts scoring points.

The question is for posters like TK who've said the offense has been part of the problem too? If Kubes and his scripted offense isn't working and the defense is the worst in NFL history what has Smithiak really accomplished during their 5 yrs here in Houston?

Lucky
11-26-2010, 11:48 AM
And the concessions at Reliant are light years ahead of what the Dome had.
I've gotten sick from both, so maybe I'm a poor judge. I eat all I need at the pre-game tailgate, and just drink H2O during the game.

steelbtexan
11-26-2010, 11:59 AM
And they wonder why the rest of country recognizes Houston as fair-weather fan capital. To each his own I say, but some facts are undeniable.

Smithiak is that you?

This kinda post makes my blood boil. The GREAT FANS of the HOUSTON TEXANS have made this franchise the 10th most profitable sports franchise in the world. We've done our part.

We expect better than an offense that struggles to score 14 pts in the 1st 3 qtrs of almost every game they've played this yr and a defense that is historically bad. If that's good enough for you then yes I'm a fair weathered fan. LOL

Face it this team needs major changes. It's not tough enough. These changes need to happen quickly and a new attitude needs to be brought into this organization.

If change doesn't occur soon and the team keeps playing crappy football then Uncle BoB will have to take the hit where it matters most. (bottom line) as it should be.

Surreal McCoy
11-26-2010, 12:13 PM
Face it this team needs major changes. It's not tough enough. These changes need to happen quickly and a new attitude needs to be brought into this organization.

Good point. All we really need is someone on the sidelines to scream at the players because that's what Cowher would do (and you)? That's what motivates grown men and gets them to concentrate, right.

Or perhaps an owner that changes staff every 2 season like, Jerrah? He just wants to win, huh?

And as for great Houston fans, Houston is known for turning on its players and coaches at the first hint of adversity. And yet people wonder where Vince Young gets it from...

Lucky
11-26-2010, 12:19 PM
Houston is known for turning on its players and coaches at the first hint of adversity...
What city embraces failure? OK, you've got Chicago and its Cubbies. The loveable losers. Where else is mediocrity beloved?

P.S. First hint? Some of us have seen this coming for 3 years now.

steelbtexan
11-26-2010, 12:43 PM
Good point. All we really need is someone on the sidelines to scream at the players because that's what Cowher would do (and you)? That's what motivates grown men and gets them to concentrate, right.

Or perhaps an owner that changes staff every 2 season like, Jerrah? He just wants to win, huh?

And as for great Houston fans, Houston is known for turning on its players and coaches at the first hint of adversity. And yet people wonder where Vince Young gets it from...

Do you have any idea what discipline is?

It's a CB (Allen) not playing an inside technique with 50 sec. left in the Jets game. Gap integrity, not missing blocking assignments etc. Being able to run a 2 min. drill efficiently. You know all of the things that winning organizations do. They also generally have players on their teams that love playing football and treat it like a proffesion. Football comes 1st for them and they hate losing with a passion. Unlike some Texans players MW/AO I'm calling you out.



As far as the Cowher/Gruden/Billick sp. I would take any of them over Kubiak. The reasons why you ask? They all preach discpline, Have proven they can put together competent assistant coaching staffs and have proven to be able to make much better decisions in pressure situations than Kubes has proven to be able to do.

thunderkyss
11-26-2010, 01:39 PM
The question is for posters like TK who've said the offense has been part of the problem too? If Kubes and his scripted offense isn't working and the defense is the worst in NFL history what has Smithiak really accomplished during their 5 yrs here in Houston?

First, I don't blame the script for anything. The script is not as rigid as what's being suggested. Every play has options built in, depending on the situation. Matt has the ability to audible, or check to another play. & if the script says we're going to run it up the middle out of a 3 TE set, but we are in 3-28, we won't stick to the script.

Second, that's exactly my point. Sort of. We're only at 4.6 years. After 5 years of what we've seen so far, I have no qualms about getting rid of Kubiak.

I'm not in love with Kubiak, I don't think we should hold on to him at all costs. If we're not contending for a Super Bowl (which at the minimum means getting into the play-offs) by January, I think he should go.

I've said so many times.

I will however be in the stands come Sunday rooting for my team to win. I'll be there Monday Night, Dec 13th & January 2nd doing the same thing.

& as improbable as it may be, I will remind everyone as often as I get a chance that the season isn't over at 4-6.

steelbtexan
11-26-2010, 01:58 PM
TK what do you think the chances of finishing above .500 are?

Balt. Philly etc... with the current state of the defense = disaster. IMHO

I've only missed 1 game in all of these yrs and if it wasn't for my wife I wouldn't be going to any more games this yr.

thunderkyss
11-26-2010, 02:43 PM
TK what do you think the chances of finishing above .500 are?

Balt. Philly etc... with the current state of the defense = disaster. IMHO


50/50

I think Kubiak needs to stop experimenting with the offense, take the reigns & not look back. If we can start putting up points in the first half, and actually chew up some clock, this defense is good enough.



I've only missed 1 game in all of these yrs and if it wasn't for my wife I wouldn't be going to any more games this yr.

That's your prerogative. I'm in the Grid Iron, 5 rows deep. I've been trying for the last two years to get into the first 5 rows... makes a huge difference... maybe I'll be able to move up this year.

fingers crossed.

CloakNNNdagger
11-26-2010, 04:18 PM
Good point. All we really need is someone on the sidelines to scream at the players because that's what Cowher would do (and you)? That's what motivates grown men and gets them to concentrate, right.

Or perhaps an owner that changes staff every 2 season like, Jerrah? He just wants to win, huh?

And as for great Houston fans, Houston is known for turning on its players and coaches at the first hint of adversity. And yet people wonder where Vince Young gets it from...

Congratulations, your insults to Houston fans have made you a flock of friends on the board..........and here for only a couple of days!

BTW, I'll challenge you to find perennial losing teams where their fans have not turned on its players and coaches. In fact, if you try real hard, I bet you could name teams with perennial winning records where players and coaches fear for their lives...........if you try real hard.:shades: