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View Full Version : Defense id the problem and Offense is great, right?


eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:03 PM
In 9 games this season, the offense has scored double digit points in the first half in only three of them. In one of those, they only scored one TD. In other words, most of the time, the Texans offense scores 7 or fewer points in the first half.

How is that a good offense?

A-Mar
11-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Well, I have a feeling that might have something to do with the scripted plays to start the game off since we ALWAYS suck in the 1st half. It's been like this for years now

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:13 PM
Well, I have a feeling that might have something to do with the scripted plays to start the game off since we ALWAYS suck in the 1st half. It's been like this for years now

Surely you aren't suggesting that the coaching is the problem, right?

HOU-TEX
11-15-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't think anybody's excusing the offense. However, anyone who might think the offense is the reason we're losing is off their rocker. IMO, of course

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 12:19 PM
In 9 games this season, the offense has scored double digit points in the first half in only three of them. In one of those, they only scored one TD. In other words, most of the time, the Texans offense scores 7 or fewer points in the first half.

How is that a good offense?

I don't care when they score them, but 24.1 points per game should get you wins. That's not the problem. The problem is giving up 28.6 points per game making you the second worst in the league in that regard. :wadepalm:

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:21 PM
I don't think anybody's excusing the offense. However, anyone who might think the offense is the reason we're losing is off their rocker. IMO, of course

I think they're a bigger problem than people are recognizing and are a direct contributor to losses. By scoring virtually nothing in the first half, they're stressing an already awful defense. You can't go into every second half behind by as much as they are and expect the defense to keep you in the game with as poor as the defense has been.

The defense actually did a decent job by their standards yesterday.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't care when they score them, but 24.1 points per game should get you wins. That's not the problem. The problem is giving up 28.6 points per game making you the second worst in the league in that regard. :wadepalm:

When they score them is important because playing from behind stresses an already awful defense. If you're going to have a porous defense, you better keep up on the offensive side, especially when most of your talent is on that side of the ball. Falling behind so much makes for tough sledding for any team, much less one with an atrocious defense.

kiwitexansfan
11-15-2010, 12:25 PM
You could argue that playing from behind benefits our defense.

Teams with a lead will tend to run the ball more which hides our HIDEOUSLY bad pass defense.

We are only bad against the run.

A-Mar
11-15-2010, 12:27 PM
The defense actually did a decent job by their standards yesterday.

While I agree with this, it is so so so sad that almost 500 yds to the Jaguars is "they played better than expected"

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 12:29 PM
When they score them is important because playing from behind stresses an already awful defense. If you're going to have a porous defense, you better keep up on the offensive side, especially when most of your talent is on that side of the ball. Falling behind so much makes for tough sledding for any team, much less one with an atrocious defense.

That defense isn't stressed because of the offense. They're stressed because they can't stop a cold. One could argue that they stress the offense by continually putting them in bad spots, a) because they can't get off the field and b) when they do get a stop, the offense has start deep in their own end. When was the last time the defense at least somewhat consistently put the offense in good shape with a turnover or a 3 and out???

To blame the offense (not that they're even close to being perfect) is short sighted when you look at the fact that the defense gives up (on average) 400+ yards per game. That's a crappy defense no matter how you try to spin it off on the offense.

Corrosion
11-15-2010, 12:32 PM
The offense has been inconsistent , slow to make adjustments and .... Gary tries to get cute every once in a while and fix what aint broken.

They make good adjustments at the half .... or they just act like they care after they fall behind.

HOU-TEX
11-15-2010, 12:35 PM
That defense isn't stressed because of the offense. Their stressed because they can't stop a cold. One could argue that they stress the offense by continually putting them in bad spots, a) because they can't get off the field and b) when they do get a stop, the offense has start deep in their own end. When was the last time the defense at least somewhat consistently put the offense in good shape with a turnover or a 3 and out???

To blame the offense (not that they're even close to being perfect) is short sighted when you look at the fact that the defense gives up (on average) 400+ yards per game. That's a crappy defense no matter how you try to spin it off on the offense.

Agree 100%

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:36 PM
That defense isn't stressed because of the offense. Their stressed because they can't stop a cold. One could argue that they stress the offense by continually putting them in bad spots, a) because they can't get off the field and b) when they do get a stop, the offense has start deep in their own end. When was the last time the defense at least somewhat consistently put the offense in good shape with a turnover or a 3 and out???

To blame the offense (not that they're even close to being perfect) is short sighted when you look at the fact that the defense gives up (on average) 400+ yards per game. That's a crappy defense no matter how you try to spin it off on the offense.

I'm not arguing that the defense is anything but atrocious. I used that word, along with awful, above. As I have pointed out in other threads, this defense is on pace to be the worst defense in the history of the NFL. It's somewhat comical at this point.

But if you know all that, why would you put yourself behind on offense? If you score 3-7 points in the first half, knowing how bad the defense is, how can you have any reasonable expectation of winning? The only chance you have is to ask your defense for a couple stops while you try and catch up. And the defense did that a few times yesterday. And that's pretty unrealistic to ask for at this point.

Is it unrealistic to ask the offense to score double digits in the first half this year?

axman40
11-15-2010, 12:36 PM
Well if the defense is the Id ,that would make the offense the Ego because there is nothing Super about this team.
:texflag:

Runner
11-15-2010, 12:39 PM
I think the defense is a major problem and the offense has the talent to be very good. Putting that offensive rubber on the road is a problem; they leave too many skid marks.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 12:45 PM
In 9 games this season, the offense has scored double digit points in the first half in only three of them. In one of those, they only scored one TD. In other words, most of the time, the Texans offense scores 7 or fewer points in the first half.

How is that a good offense?

A post that I made in another thread last night, that kind of fits here...

Did anybody tell him that you're taught to run in short yardage situations.....especially when you have a back whose putting up a record season? Did anybody tell him that your taught if your guards are getting owned inside, it doesn't hurt to use the actual strength of your Oline (and a aspect of your line which is actually elite) and use your tackles (who just might be the best run blocking tackle tandem in the league), even if they BOTH (yes BOTH) struggle in pass protection.

This guy is a joke, Kubiak is a joke....His offense reminds me of what the Rockets look like. (I'll get to that later) I know this defense has been bad, but if you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. The offense hasn't been that much better. (and please don't post stats, I don't give a damn how great stats say their offense is.) The offense has been horrible this year. Oh they have talent, don't get me wrong, this team HAS talent on that side of the ball....and they put up numbers, but the numbers always feel empty.

The problem is, is that they're coached by a guy who doesn't know WTF he wants to do on that side of the ball and doesn't know what kind of identity he wants this team to take. Like the Rockets' offense, it seems like the "rotation" changes (if that metaphor" makes any sense). Are we a passing team or are we a running team?......I would really like to know, because until that question is answered we can't concentrate on being great at one and establishing a true "identity". We were better offensively when we didn't have a running game. This is why I'm completely off Kubiak's bandwagon and not only off of it, but I already hitchhiked 3 states over. The man can't seem to run a total offense with any consistentcy....and if things don't work out I can feel his panic and anxiety through my damn T.V. screen. You know what he looks like this season, a man who has no answers and a man whose caving in under the pressure. There won't be any late season heroics/rally this year.......this is the year that the house will fall in on Kubiak. Ala Capers 2005, just without a 2-14 record.

Atleast I still have faith in Adelman and know that he'll figure it out (I still have Houston in the playoffs). Rick Adelman>>> than anything Kubiak could pull off, very talented offensive mind, just simply not a head coach.



I'm seeing the same thing as you.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 12:46 PM
I think the defense is a major problem and the offense has the talent to be very good. Putting that offensive rubber on the road is a problem; they leave too many skid marks.

Exactly. And following the "Mario has too much talent to be this bad" line of reasoning, then the offense's performance is inexcusable. On defense, I'd argue that we don't have the overall talent. On offense, they just aren't performing. Whether that's because of the scripted plays to begin the game, poor clock management, conservative approach, or just failure to execute is anyone's guess.

disaacks3
11-15-2010, 12:50 PM
The Defense is hideous and the Offense is inconsistent...thereby increasing the strain on an already depleted Defense.

Still....the talent-level on this team is better than the performance we're getting week in and week out. That spells coaching change.

The1ApplePie
11-15-2010, 12:52 PM
Been saying the same things for years

Defense: Worst DTs in football, no team comes close. Effects the LBs and secondary with zero run defense and pass rush respectively

Offense: There is no #2 WR. Walter is good at riding AJ's coat tails, but has been horrible this season. JJ is a joke and there is no depth behind him.

Thorn
11-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Still....the talent-level on this team is better than the performance we're getting week in and week out. That spells coaching change.

Exactly. Yes. I've been saying the same thing for a while now. While we may not be super bowl contenders with the present crew, there is to much damn talent on this team to be where we are.

Dishman
11-15-2010, 01:16 PM
I don't think anybody's excusing the offense. However, anyone who might think the offense is the reason we're losing is off their rocker. IMO, of course

For as bad as the defense is they are getting really no help from the offense. I feel like were back to a few seasons ago where the defense is always on the field in the first half wearing themselves out. By the second half the defense is now gassed is addition to just playing like shit.

Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 01:20 PM
I don't care when they score them, but 24.1 points per game should get you wins. That's not the problem. The problem is giving up 28.6 points per game making you the second worst in the league in that regard. :wadepalm:

It's a gross oversimplification on my part but 24 points a game would have made the 2002 Texans at least 9-7 and at best 11-5

Not that we aren't having significant problems on both sides of the ball. I should add that because it's true. The offense is very inconsistent and not coming through nearly often enough when the defense needs help. We just don't give it as much weight because the defense is almost never coming through when we need them.

Dishman
11-15-2010, 01:22 PM
You could argue that playing from behind benefits our defense.

Teams with a lead will tend to run the ball more which hides our HIDEOUSLY bad pass defense.

We are only bad against the run.

Nothing hides our hideously bad pass defense. That ship sailed the very first game the secondary was lit up. When you give up over 300 passing YPG you're being exposed every game all game long.

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 01:26 PM
I think they're a bigger problem than people are recognizing and are a direct contributor to losses. By scoring virtually nothing in the first half, they're stressing an already awful defense. You can't go into every second half behind by as much as they are and expect the defense to keep you in the game with as poor as the defense has been.

The defense actually did a decent job by their standards yesterday.

I'm not blaming "everything" on the offense. But no one thought going into the season that we were going to be a defensive football team. We weren't going to dominate anyone on that side of the ball.

4 games into the season, we were winning, defense looked bad. I'm ok with that (because we knew).

week 5... against the Giants I'm thinking to myself, no, that shouldn't be happening. Surely after the Cowboy's game they practiced playing bump & run against bigger stronger Receivers... surely.

Week 6... Lost Demeco just before half-time..... they didn't look bad at all up to that point.

Week 7... Didn't look too bad. But they were on their Bye.

Week 8... vs the Colts on the road. The defense did a fairly good job in limiting what Manning was doing. But we needed them to get a stop at key points in the game & they didn't do it.

Week 9... San Diego. Again, this is like playing the Colts. I know they had a bunch of nobodies out there, but that didn't hurt them against the Titans & they've been doing it all year, without Vincent Jackson.

Week 10... Totally inexcusable. I do my best to try to look at the bright side of every situation, this time.... I'm not seeing it. I saw all three LBs step it up (IMHO) in pass protection, I saw a QB look & look & look for a place to throw the ball. He would eventually find a place to throw the ball, or he'd run to daylight & pick up 17 yards. That's on that DL I try to make excuses for all the time.

If we want to make the other team one dimensional, we've got to do 2 things. Stop the run & get a big lead.

We're not doing either, our defense is in a no win situation. They weren't built like the Jets or the Ravens or the Bears, or the Vikings, or whatever. They were built to stop the run & get after the passer....

offense has to do it's job, stay on the field, generate points, eat up the clock.

Rey
11-15-2010, 01:30 PM
I get what people are saying about the offense, but if the offense is scoring about 21 - 28 points a game, that should be enough to win.

Our defense can cause 3 and outs just like opposing defenses. Yes the offense's slow starts put stress on the defense, but what about the stress the defense's overall poor play puts on the offense?

I'm sure it is kind of stressful for the offense to go into a game and feel the pressure of having to score often and early all the time. Maybe the offense plays a bit better if they don't have that stress on them...Maybe they wouldn't press as much and come out and play more loose????

I dunno...But this defense, IMO, is the first thing that needs fixing. You can't be a historically bad defense and complain about the offense getting off to slow starts.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 01:34 PM
I get what people are saying about the offense, but if the offense is scoring about 21 - 28 points a game, that should be enough to win.

Our defense can cause 3 and outs just like opposing defenses. Yes the offense's slow starts put stress on the defense, but what about the stress the defense's overall poor play puts on the offense?

They both monkey ****ed each other yesterday.

The offense hung the defense out to dry a entire half by consistently going 3 and out and scoring only 3 points against a defense that's almost as bad as ours. Yes they can score 21-28 points a game, but they only do it in halfs and you can't expect to consistently come from behind like we did against the Chiefs and Redskins. Yesterday was just another example of where our team wasn't ready to play at the start of the game. (Something we've seen far too often)

Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 01:38 PM
They weren't built like the Jets or the Ravens or the Bears, or the Vikings, or whatever. They were built to stop the run & get after the passer....

offense has to do it's job, stay on the field, generate points, eat up the clock.

Then our defense was built wrong and they need to be carefully evaluated and then rebuilt correctly by someone who knows how to build a defense. This isn't it.

RTP2110
11-15-2010, 03:49 PM
That defense isn't stressed because of the offense. They're stressed because they can't stop a cold. One could argue that they stress the offense by continually putting them in bad spots, a) because they can't get off the field and b) when they do get a stop, the offense has start deep in their own end. When was the last time the defense at least somewhat consistently put the offense in good shape with a turnover or a 3 and out???

To blame the offense (not that they're even close to being perfect) is short sighted when you look at the fact that the defense gives up (on average) 400+ yards per game. That's a crappy defense no matter how you try to spin it off on the offense.

Freaking nailed. Rep.

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:01 PM
That defense isn't stressed because of the offense. They're stressed because they can't stop a cold. One could argue that they stress the offense by continually putting them in bad spots, a) because they can't get off the field and b) when they do get a stop, the offense has start deep in their own end. When was the last time the defense at least somewhat consistently put the offense in good shape with a turnover or a 3 and out???


We got beat bad in the Giants game. The Giants went up 24-3 on us in the first half.

The defense came out to start the second half, forced a 3 & out, then an INT, then another INT.

If the offense would have scored on those possessions, they could have tied the game with 4 minutes left in the third Qtr. But they couldn't move the ball enough to attempt a field goal. They did score on one of those INTs, only because the defense put them on the 17 yard line.

The KC game, the defense allowed the Chiefs to score on their opening drive. The next three possessions, they forced the Chiefs to punt. The Texans had opportunity to tie the game & take the lead by at least a touchdown. They could barely move the ball, 3 & out. No possession longer than 2 minutes. The defense gave up another TD. 14-7 going into half-time. We start the third Qtr, going 3 & out (again) on offense.

The defense played well enough for us to have a lead in most all of our games this season, the offense never did their part.

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:04 PM
A post that I made in another thread last night, that kind of fits here...





I'm seeing the same thing as you.

Did you see the different ways they got Drew the ball? Can't run it up the middle, let's try the edges, let's try a draw (we tried our first draw in Wk 10 yippeee)... let's give it to our fullback, really keep them guessing.

Not us...... the stretch ain't working, let's air this puppy out.


WTF??

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:06 PM
JJ is a joke and there is no depth behind him.

They looked like they were clicking once they got DA in the game. I know we don't think much of him around here, but he works.

The1ApplePie
11-15-2010, 04:09 PM
They looked like they were clicking once they got DA in the game. I know we don't think much of him around here, but he works.

Still, I'd find it hard to pass up AJ Green or Julio Jones, especially if the premier DTs and safeties are gone. Go the Colts route and just bomb people into submission.

Double Barrel
11-15-2010, 04:11 PM
Perhaps one of the NFL's leading rushers should get the rock more than 16 times a game.... :um:

I'm talkin' to you, Gary Kubiak!

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:13 PM
The offense is very inconsistent and not coming through nearly often enough when the defense needs help. We just don't give it as much weight because the defense is almost never coming through when we need them.

I'd argue that. They came through yesterday, offense fumbled the ball....

We start the 4th Qtr, jacksonville misses a field goal in a tied ball game. Offense goes out there, 4 plays, then punt. Damn near a 3 & out, might as well be.

If the offense fails to produce, you don't even see it. No points go on the board..... no stats.

Defense fails, points go up, yards get tabulated. Every body gripes.

The offense can come back march 80 yards in a minute score a TD & everyone forgets their total failure on the previous series.

The defense wasn't great last year. They were able to do what they did, & look the way they did, because they got help from the offense. May not have been points, but the offense kept the ball & ate up clock.

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:19 PM
I'm sure it is kind of stressful for the offense to go into a game and feel the pressure of having to score often and early all the time.

The next time the Texans score early & often will be the first time this season.

We win that game. & look good on defense while doing it.

We have been abysmal on offense all year, especially in the first half, especially in the passing game.

The defense is bad, don't think I'm saying otherwise. But this is an offensive football team, if the offense ain't working, the defense ain't gonna work.

Shouldn't be that way, I know.

But if you really think we are a top 5 offense, we should dictate when we are on the field, & shouldn't have to wait all game before we put points on the board.

thunderkyss
11-15-2010, 04:20 PM
Then our defense was built wrong and they need to be carefully evaluated and then rebuilt correctly by someone who knows how to build a defense. This isn't it.

No argument here.

Rey
11-15-2010, 05:15 PM
The next time the Texans score early & often will be the first time this season.

We win that game. & look good on defense while doing it.

We have been abysmal on offense all year, especially in the first half, especially in the passing game.

The defense is bad, don't think I'm saying otherwise. But this is an offensive football team, if the offense ain't working, the defense ain't gonna work.

Shouldn't be that way, I know.

But if you really think we are a top 5 offense, we should dictate when we are on the field, & shouldn't have to wait all game before we put points on the board.

TK...We have scored early in a two games this season so no, it wouldn't be the first time.

And I do not think this is a top 5 offense. I don't think this team is really any good...JMO.

I think the head coach needs to go at the least, and the DC at the most. I am (.) this close to not giving a shyt and wanting us to lose the rest of these games so we can get some wholesale changes around here. I really don't even care to discuss specifics at this point. They suck and have sucked all season....And when I say "they" I am referring to anyone who receives a check from Bob McNair.

Rey
11-15-2010, 05:20 PM
They both monkey ****ed each other yesterday.

The offense hung the defense out to dry a entire half by consistently going 3 and out and scoring only 3 points against a defense that's almost as bad as ours. Yes they can score 21-28 points a game, but they only do it in halfs and you can't expect to consistently come from behind like we did against the Chiefs and Redskins. Yesterday was just another example of where our team wasn't ready to play at the start of the game. (Something we've seen far too often)

I don't expect them to do anything. I don't even expect them to show up for the games with all the eye boogers wiped from their faces. Why would I expect them to come from behind consistently? I was shocked when we did it the first two times....

I don't think we've had but one quality win this season. And that was the very first game against the Colts.

My point with that post is that the offense is going to struggle. Overall, they have played much better than the defense this season. It's not even close. Over the past few years under Kubiak the offense has played much better.

The defense has never been consistently good over the Kubiak era. They have pretty much always had glaring weaknesses..be it personnel and/or coaching.

I am not worried about the offense at this point. They don't need a whole lot of fixing. some better decisions by a few players..maybe some better play calls at times and they are ok.

The defense? They are so far off it's not even funny.

Texans_Chick
11-15-2010, 06:28 PM
Perhaps one of the NFL's leading rushers should get the rock more than 16 times a game.... :um:

I'm talkin' to you, Gary Kubiak!

Look at Foster's first half rushing numbers in the last game. He was getting stuffed. A bunch.

They put up the huge numbers in the second half when they barely mixed in the run. They were behind.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 07:02 PM
When you consider the three first halves that the Texans have played well this season, here are some stats for y'all to consider.

First Half:

Name.............Att......Comp.....Pct......Yds... ..Avg.....TD/INT.....QBRtg
Schaub..........129.......73........56.6....764... ...5.9......4/4.........71.3

Last 2 minutes of the half:

Schaub..........49.........27........55.1....269.. ....5.5.....2/2..........67.5

Double Barrel
11-15-2010, 07:35 PM
Look at Foster's first half rushing numbers in the last game. He was getting stuffed. A bunch.

They put up the huge numbers in the second half when they barely mixed in the run. They were behind.

It's not a very creative offense, and to be quite honest, I think our run blocking just sucks. We have a known quantity in Foster, so there is obviously a failure with schemes and design when the offense consistently fails to establish a solid running game.

Other teams do it, but our offensive genius head coach seems unable to establish a solid identity with good talent. We should not see such slow starts and come-from-behind games as much as we do.

And this is what my post was about. Not just give Foster the ball 30 times gratuitously, but establish a damn identity that you can shove that run down the opposing team's throat even when they know it's coming. We are not, and have never been, that kind of physical team.

A "finesse" offense with a crappy D is the kind of team I hate in the NFL, and that's now our team. Yippee.

Lucky
11-15-2010, 08:11 PM
To blame the offense (not that they're even close to being perfect) is short sighted when you look at the fact that the defense gives up (on average) 400+ yards per game. That's a crappy defense no matter how you try to spin it off on the offense.
I think eriadoc's underlying point is that the offense isn't so good that we dare not let the architect go. I happen to agree with him. The Texans have put together some big numbers while making 2nd half comebacks. And while that's great to have (especially when your defense is giving up 30ppg), it doesn't mean that your offense is elite.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 08:42 PM
I think eriadoc's underlying point is that the offense isn't so good that we dare not let the architect go. I happen to agree with him. The Texans have put together some big numbers while making 2nd half comebacks. And while that's great to have (especially when your defense is giving up 30ppg), it doesn't mean that your offense is elite.

Stated most succinctly.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 08:46 PM
I think eriadoc's underlying point is that the offense isn't so good that we dare not let the architect go. I happen to agree with him. The Texans have put together some big numbers while making 2nd half comebacks. And while that's great to have (especially when your defense is giving up 30ppg), it doesn't mean that your offense is elite.

Right, and you'll notice what I put in paranthesis. I know the offense has problems, but it pales in comparison to that powder puff defense. You can win with that offense, but with NOT that defense.... not a snowballs chance in hell.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 08:47 PM
Stated most succinctly.

And I hope you didn't miss the generality of my post(s).

Wolf
11-15-2010, 08:54 PM
I skimmed through the thread so if this was mentioned, my apologies

earlier this season, I was drinking a few beers and watching the game and I had my little angel sitting on one shoulder and devil sitting on the other .. my little angel said" I wish the Texans would blow them out in the first half " and the devil said "Why? our secondary can't cover anyone anyway and why would we want to make a team throw into our weakness"


:smiliedance:

hradhak
11-15-2010, 09:36 PM
I think eriadoc's underlying point is that the offense isn't so good that we dare not let the architect go. I happen to agree with him. The Texans have put together some big numbers while making 2nd half comebacks. And while that's great to have (especially when your defense is giving up 30ppg), it doesn't mean that your offense is elite.

Agreed. A new coach would hopefully bring in an o coordinator who can utilize the talent we have. Said new coach could let him run the offense while he and the d coordinator focus on the disaster that is our defense.

My hope is that we bring in a defensive head coach. Our offense doesn't need major tweaking