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Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 11:10 AM
I keep thinking about how our solution to getting improvement from our defense every year since Gary Kubiak was hired is to simplify the system so the players can "just react" and "play faster letting their natural talent take over". I feel like I've heard that every year since Richard Smith arrived and began having less than stellar results in 2006.

Now don't get me wrong. I understand this is not at all uncommon in the NFL. New coaches come in and implement a new system then the players maybe don't pick it up quite as fast as they should and so the coaches choose to try and pare things back a bit. I'm not complaining that the Texans have done this.

I'm complaining because we've done this every year of Kubiak's tenure under both Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That I think raises some pretty big flags.

Go back to 2002 and look at how long it took Vic Fangio and Dom Capers to install the defense we began our existence with. Yes, we had veteran players across the board and two of them were Pro Bowlers that year but the defense was implemented in one training camp and within a few weeks of the start of the season they were playing solid football. Many times that year the defense was left hanging by the inept offense but they played well enough to win more often than not that year (and in fact won one game all by themselves).

Look at the 1993 Oilers who installed the 46 defense in training camp. We had Buddy Ryan as our DC and he's the man where the 46 is concerned but it still took 4-5 weeks into the season before our players started to really make some noise within the scheme.

That's just two examples of installing a defense and how long it took. Somebody in the NFL is trying to install a different defensive scheme just about every year somewhere I think. It doesn't take 5 damn years to put in place. The thing is, why are our players not getting it?

Is the scheme overly complex?
Are our defensive coaches inept?
Are our players stupid?

I tend to doubt that the Texans are doing anything too terribly complicated or outrageous on defense (prior to "simplifying things"). If they were and this system was complicated and cumbersome then we'd have heard players complaining about it already. Still the idea that we have to simple things up every year tends to kind of point to either an overly complex system or overly stupid players.

I question whether we've hired good teachers. It's not just a DC we're talking about. It's the entire staff. We've seen bad coaches here go on to be very good coaches in other places and in other systems. Chris Palmer was our "lousy" offensive coordinator. He goes to New York to work with Eli Manning and he's enjoying his Super Bowl ring now. Vic Fangio's defenses were considered complicated and difficult to learn here but he goes on to coach in Baltimore where he works with linebackers (and they got some linebackers in Baltimore) before going on to being Stanford's defensive coordinator. They arent' doing too bad.

You give these "bad teachers" good students and all of a sudden they're good teachers.

That brings me back to the players. Did we consistently manage to find athletically gifted dumbasses who can't play in a pro defense? If so how are we seemingly finding all of the dumbasses? Is it smarts or just bad football instincts? If it's the latter then you would think that this would show up before we pick them in the draft or sign them in free agency. Bad football instincts can be spotted on tape.

We've seen players put up respectable careers elsewhere, come here, and then sort of slowly fade into mediocrity right before our eyes. We've seen players leave here as busts or scapegoats, go somewhere else, and resurrect their careers. We can't help but notice that our 2003 draft is in the process of trying to go to this years Pro Bowl while playing for Atlanta and Tennessee. Both of those guys left here on the current administrations watch. I agreed (and still believe) that it was time for the Texans and Dunta Robinson to part ways. The "marriage" so to speak was broken. I don't however think it was predestined to fail.

This scheme looked bad with the holdovers from Capers team. It's looked bad with every draft pick and free agent we've added. It always looks bad until we strip it down to a very basic defense that then gets some results. over the last half of the year.

This year it doesn't look like we're even going to see that. At some point if you put enough vanilla on tape then the coaches and players in this league are going to come out and exploit it. We're not going to get away with simplifying this anymore.

I believe the scheme is unsound and I believe that neither of our defensive coordinators during the Kubiak era have been good enough to understand that hence they continue to trot this same basic system out year after year getting the same results regardless of who we plug in at what position.

That these players can't do well in it year after year says a lot about it being no good. That they have usually improved their performance once the system is suitably vanilla'd up tells me that they are not lousy defensive players with bad football instincts by and large. They are not being put in a position to succeed by this coaching staff. True some of them are less than what we'd hope they'd be (Okoye, Kareem Jackson so far) but if you look at most of our players who've been here for more than a year or so you see that they do play better when the coaches get the system out of their way.

I think that pulling the system back to "Defense for Dummies" levels hasn't helped anybody in the long run. When the 1993 Oilers weren't getting Ryans 46 defense he didnt' scale it back to help the short bus guys keep up. He stayed the course, said it will get better, and it did. All Frank has done by following Richard Smith's path is to put a defense on the field that everybody knows on sight. Now there's nowhere else to take this.

The defensive coordinator must go and his replacement must be a known quantity with a known history of success. He should be allowed to hire and/or dismiss his coordinators without interference from Kubiak and he needs to be given the upcoming draft dam near in its entirety to get whatever pieces he needs to fix this.

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 11:11 AM
tl;dr

Section516
11-15-2010, 11:14 AM
tl;dr

:wadepalm:

Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 11:22 AM
tl;dr

That's cool. I write a lot, always have.

TheCD
11-15-2010, 11:24 AM
I like the method you used to weed out what you felt the problem was. I agree that it can't be stupid players (Terry Bradshaw was always accused to being a monumental *****, and he was able to win 4 Super Bowls).

At some point you know the players (or at least there family members) have heard guys like Steve Young talk about how easy this defense is because it isn't challenging. They may think these guys are wrong, but at some point that questions might start nagging them in the back of their mind: what if they're right?


I like Kubiak and I wanted him here. I feel he's done wonders for this franchise and I think the offense will suffer if he is let go. That being said, I think the time is right for both parties to move on. I would prefer a defensive-minded coach, but I will support whomever our next head coach is (whenever that change is made).


I think the major problem here lies with McNair. He is a great guy to work for, I'm sure. But if I remember correctly he tried to establish and NHL franchise in Houston before turning to the NFL, which tells me that perhaps he isn't the greatest at making football-related decisions such as coaching. If that is the case, I hope he sees that and decides that he needs to play very hands-off and gets a guy who's proven he can get the job done, or has a proven track record of success as a coordinator.

My list would be: Cowher, Ryan, Frazier, Fewell.

My only "do not touch" coach would be Gruden. He's supposed to be some kind of offensive genius, but his offenses always sucked when he didn't have Gannon and Rice/Brown.

Besides...Gruden would be too busy marvelling at "The Sheriff" during our games against the Colts to do any actual coaching...

Cjeremy635
11-15-2010, 11:29 AM
I think the system is too simple that other teams know what we are going to do and just tee off on us. I was watching Football Night in America last night and Dungy was talking about how to beat the teams with defense. He made the comment about having to try something different when you played them because they knew your habits and techniques and would make you pay if you trotted out the same old routine (I'm paraphrasing here). Anyways, it's true. We don't disguise what we're doing or make changes pre-snap. We just line up, let the QB adjust, and then run to the receiver after he catches the ball. Hell....I'd be salivating to play our defense if I was any of the other 31 teams. Our sorry ass play is partly due to our sorry ass play calling.

Big Lou
11-15-2010, 01:11 PM
tl;dr

wbr; iydr

powda
11-15-2010, 01:18 PM
Is the scheme overly complex?
Are our defensive coaches inept?
Are our players stupid?

You give these "bad teachers" good students and all of a sudden they're good teachers.

The defensive coordinator must go and his replacement must be a known quantity with a known history of success. He should be allowed to hire and/or dismiss his coordinators without interference from Kubiak and he needs to be given the upcoming draft dam near in its entirety to get whatever pieces he needs to fix this.

Nice post Herv. I wonder if the problems stem from 2 origins:

1. Kubiak is an offensive coorodinator and has more trouble recognizing defensive coaching talent.

2. Kubiak's coaching philosophy dictates unity among his coachs. He will only hire a defensive coordinator he considers a friend and trusts. He will not consider a coach who may be more abrasive despite being the best candidate.

I have no problem drafting dumb players as long as they are disciplined and maintain their assignment. It is a coach's responsibility to instill discipline and teach the assignment.

9 weeks of some of the most dreadfull defense i've ever seen. Who's been fired? who's been benched? Has any one player recieved or lost signifigant playing time to shake things up? Have you guys noticed any major scheme changes? Do you as a fan think results will change if we dont make any changes on the field? Do something. Try something new - cause what your doing aint working!

Ofcourse, we've seen inaction before...like the offseason! Every year i become less and less a fan of the draft because of the texans. Everyone but the texans knew they needed defensive help. i had them slotted to take a running back and a center somewhere in the draft...everything else was going to beef up the defense.

What did they do?

We drafted a cornerback who was considered by many a 3rd round talent and a career #2 starter.No legitimate safety. No pass rushing DE. i like mitchell at DT...i'll give them credit for that...but do we really need 600 damn tight ends?

Now its to late to change the talent on the team till the offseason. They have to sleep in the bed they made for the rest of the season...and its only gonna get worse from here...

If we're gonna play a simple scheme they better play with relentless agression and not blow assignments

drs23
11-15-2010, 01:20 PM
I keep thinking about how our solution to getting improvement from our defense every year since Gary Kubiak was hired is to simplify the system so the players can "just react" and "play faster letting their natural talent take over". I feel like I've heard that every year since Richard Smith arrived and began having less than stellar results in 2006.

Now don't get me wrong. I understand this is not at all uncommon in the NFL. New coaches come in and implement a new system then the players maybe don't pick it up quite as fast as they should and so the coaches choose to try and pare things back a bit. I'm not complaining that the Texans have done this.

I'm complaining because we've done this every year of Kubiak's tenure under both Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That I think raises some pretty big flags.

Go back to 2002 and look at how long it took Vic Fangio and Dom Capers to install the defense we began our existence with. Yes, we had veteran players across the board and two of them were Pro Bowlers that year but the defense was implemented in one training camp and within a few weeks of the start of the season they were playing solid football. Many times that year the defense was left hanging by the inept offense but they played well enough to win more often than not that year (and in fact won one game all by themselves).

Look at the 1993 Oilers who installed the 46 defense in training camp. We had Buddy Ryan as our DC and he's the man where the 46 is concerned but it still took 4-5 weeks into the season before our players started to really make some noise within the scheme.

That's just two examples of installing a defense and how long it took. Somebody in the NFL is trying to install a different defensive scheme just about every year somewhere I think. It doesn't take 5 damn years to put in place. The thing is, why are our players not getting it?

Is the scheme overly complex?
Are our defensive coaches inept?
Are our players stupid?

I tend to doubt that the Texans are doing anything too terribly complicated or outrageous on defense (prior to "simplifying things"). If they were and this system was complicated and cumbersome then we'd have heard players complaining about it already. Still the idea that we have to simple things up every year tends to kind of point to either an overly complex system or overly stupid players.

I question whether we've hired good teachers. It's not just a DC we're talking about. It's the entire staff. We've seen bad coaches here go on to be very good coaches in other places and in other systems. Chris Palmer was our "lousy" offensive coordinator. He goes to New York to work with Eli Manning and he's enjoying his Super Bowl ring now. Vic Fangio's defenses were considered complicated and difficult to learn here but he goes on to coach in Baltimore where he works with linebackers (and they got some linebackers in Baltimore) before going on to being Stanford's defensive coordinator. They arent' doing too bad.

You give these "bad teachers" good students and all of a sudden they're good teachers.

That brings me back to the players. Did we consistently manage to find athletically gifted dumbasses who can't play in a pro defense? If so how are we seemingly finding all of the dumbasses? Is it smarts or just bad football instincts? If it's the latter then you would think that this would show up before we pick them in the draft or sign them in free agency. Bad football instincts can be spotted on tape.

We've seen players put up respectable careers elsewhere, come here, and then sort of slowly fade into mediocrity right before our eyes. We've seen players leave here as busts or scapegoats, go somewhere else, and resurrect their careers. We can't help but notice that our 2003 draft is in the process of trying to go to this years Pro Bowl while playing for Atlanta and Tennessee. Both of those guys left here on the current administrations watch. I agreed (and still believe) that it was time for the Texans and Dunta Robinson to part ways. The "marriage" so to speak was broken. I don't however think it was predestined to fail.

This scheme looked bad with the holdovers from Capers team. It's looked bad with every draft pick and free agent we've added. It always looks bad until we strip it down to a very basic defense that then gets some results. over the last half of the year.

This year it doesn't look like we're even going to see that. At some point if you put enough vanilla on tape then the coaches and players in this league are going to come out and exploit it. We're not going to get away with simplifying this anymore.

I believe the scheme is unsound and I believe that neither of our defensive coordinators during the Kubiak era have been good enough to understand that hence they continue to trot this same basic system out year after year getting the same results regardless of who we plug in at what position.

That these players can't do well in it year after year says a lot about it being no good. That they have usually improved their performance once the system is suitably vanilla'd up tells me that they are not lousy defensive players with bad football instincts by and large. They are not being put in a position to succeed by this coaching staff. True some of them are less than what we'd hope they'd be (Okoye, Kareem Jackson so far) but if you look at most of our players who've been here for more than a year or so you see that they do play better when the coaches get the system out of their way.

I think that pulling the system back to "Defense for Dummies" levels hasn't helped anybody in the long run. When the 1993 Oilers weren't getting Ryans 46 defense he didnt' scale it back to help the short bus guys keep up. He stayed the course, said it will get better, and it did. All Frank has done by following Richard Smith's path is to put a defense on the field that everybody knows on sight. Now there's nowhere else to take this.

The defensive coordinator must go and his replacement must be a known quantity with a known history of success. He should be allowed to hire and/or dismiss his coordinators without interference from Kubiak and he needs to be given the upcoming draft dam near in its entirety to get whatever pieces he needs to fix this.

:goodpost:

I enjoyed the post Herv. Didn't think it was too long at all. Very educational for me as prior to last season I was more of a casual observer than a "Die Hard". I guess I chose a great time to become one, eh?

Referencing the bolded I agree that Bush must go. On the sidelines yesterday would have been fine with me. That would naturally point to a successor. Anyone particular on your shopping list? I agree he should have carte blanche to do whatever he wants regarding coaches under him. The "without interference from Kubiak" quote infers, I think, that you're cool with Kubiak remaining as Head Coach or just on the offensive side? Reason I ask is because as has been posted in other threads many don't feel like McNair will fire him and eat a salary in conjunction with the labor uncertainty, which I think is prudent. IMO, this can be a great team with a decent defense. Sure I'll get a lot of flack for that stance, so be it. Sticks and stones so to speak.

Malloy
11-15-2010, 01:21 PM
9 weeks of some of the most dreadfull defense i've ever seen. Who's been fired? who's been benched? Has any one player recieved or lost signifigant playing time to shake things up?

Granted it's not on D, but the only player I've noticed thats lost time is Slaton :(

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2010, 01:23 PM
Nice post Herv. I wonder if the problems stem from 2 origins:

1. Kubiak is an offensive coorodinator and has more trouble recognizing defensive coaching talent.

2. Kubiak's coaching philosophy dictates unity among his coachs. He will only hire a defensive coordinator he considers a friend and trusts. He will not consider a coach who may be more abrasive despite being the best candidate.

I have no problem drafting dumb players as long as they are disciplined and maintain their assignment. It is a coach's responsibility to instill discipline and teach the assignment.

9 weeks of some of the most dreadfull defense i've ever seen. Who's been fired? who's been benched? Has any one player recieved or lost signifigant playing time to shake things up? Have you guys noticed any major scheme changes? Do you as a fan think results will change if we dont make any changes on the field? Do something. Try something new - cause what your doing aint working!

Ofcourse, we've seen inaction before...like the offseason! Every year i become less and less a fan of the draft because of the texans. Everyone but the texans knew they needed defensive help. i had them slotted to take a running back and a center somewhere in the draft...everything else was going to beef up the defense.

What did they do?

We drafted a cornerback who was considered by many a 3rd round talent and a career #2 starter.No legitimate safety. No pass rushing DE. i like mitchell at DT...i'll give them credit for that...but do we really need 600 damn tight ends?

Now its to late to change the talent on the team till the offseason. They have to sleep in the bed they made for the rest of the season...and its only gonna get worse from here...

If we're gonna play a simple scheme they better play with relentless agression and not blow assignments

Talk about a ghost of disenchanted past.

Welcome back powda.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 01:29 PM
"Simple Frank"


Ah man, I was expecting a EPIC photoshop job.

Rey
11-15-2010, 01:37 PM
They are not being put in a position to succeed by this coaching staff.

Been saying this for weeks now. The defensive coaching staff sucks. Simple things they mess up on...

Blitzing and coverage are my main pet peeves though. Not just about how often and when to blitz or what coverages they are in. But I don't see what they are trying to accomplish...Like..Are you trying to attack a weak link on the O-line...Get a match-up with Cushing on the RB...

Different little things like that...I just don't see it.

TheCD
11-15-2010, 02:19 PM
My main problem with Kubiak is while he may say he holds people accountable, it's only figuratively.


Frank Bush has thus far set a pace for one of the worst defenses in the last 40 years. The secondary is arguably the worst since that time (as evidenced by the end of the game yesterday).

Where is the accountability? I understand Kubiak doesn't want to hurt people's feelings...but obviously this team doesn't have the playoff/super bowl aspirations it says it does. If they did...Bush would have been fired weeks ago.

This defense is single-handedly killing our hopes of a playoff appearance (and the first ever for us, in case anyone forgot). Where is the accountability for that? Any other team and Bush would have been long gone by now.

Heck, at the very least fire Bush and promote Kollar or Rhodes...anyone. At least that way offenses will have to figure out our defense for a change.

brakos82
11-15-2010, 03:02 PM
I was gonna make a Frank Drebin reference, but he can tackle. :lol:

Texanmike02
11-15-2010, 03:42 PM
I'll coach the D! Someone send in my name.

Mike

BigBull17
11-15-2010, 03:50 PM
Granted it's not on D, but the only player I've noticed thats lost time is Slaton :(

Yeah, and all Slaton did was average like 5 yards a carry. He was explosive and completely lost PT. His returns were awful, but that's not his niche. Our D has been the worst Ive ever seen in my life and it has damn near the same starters. It's bad that I was a little happy when Kareem got nicked up cause that would force them to play someone else.

HJam72
11-15-2010, 03:56 PM
Our D stands for dumbasses, LOLz.

badboy
11-15-2010, 04:14 PM
Dumbing the play book down at this stage is ridiculous. Why does it take an entire half to adjust to the opponent? There has been at least three maybe four games that we gave away the first half and then looked reasonable in second half. That is on coaches. Why do we insist on drafting corners that can not cover like Quin and Jackson when our Dline can not disrupt the QB? Why do we keep drafting light DTs that can not use their "speed" to get to QB or collapse the pocket? Why do we not address free safety knowing all the above? We have not had a good defensive backfield EVER!!!

Buffi2
11-15-2010, 04:19 PM
My main problem with Kubiak is while he may say he holds people accountable, it's only figuratively.


Frank Bush has thus far set a pace for one of the worst defenses in the last 40 years. The secondary is arguably the worst since that time (as evidenced by the end of the game yesterday).

Where is the accountability? I understand Kubiak doesn't want to hurt people's feelings...but obviously this team doesn't have the playoff/super bowl aspirations it says it does. If they did...Bush would have been fired weeks ago.

This defense is single-handedly killing our hopes of a playoff appearance (and the first ever for us, in case anyone forgot). Where is the accountability for that? Any other team and Bush would have been long gone by now.

Heck, at the very least fire Bush and promote Kollar or Rhodes...anyone. At least that way offenses will have to figure out our defense for a change.

While I don't necessarily agree that the defense is "single handedly" killing our hopes - I totally agree that replacing the DC now is definitely an idea whose time came 3 games ago. The fact that Bush is still in charge of anything is an error of egregious proportions. I don't think Kubiak should be fired now - but Bush sure as hayull should. Anyone will be an improvement if for no other reason than to get the defense off their collective apathetic butts.

CloakNNNdagger
11-15-2010, 04:37 PM
I keep thinking about how our solution to getting improvement from our defense every year since Gary Kubiak was hired is to simplify the system so the players can "just react" and "play faster letting their natural talent take over". I feel like I've heard that every year since Richard Smith arrived and began having less than stellar results in 2006.

Now don't get me wrong. I understand this is not at all uncommon in the NFL. New coaches come in and implement a new system then the players maybe don't pick it up quite as fast as they should and so the coaches choose to try and pare things back a bit. I'm not complaining that the Texans have done this.

I'm complaining because we've done this every year of Kubiak's tenure under both Richard Smith and Frank Bush. That I think raises some pretty big flags.

Go back to 2002 and look at how long it took Vic Fangio and Dom Capers to install the defense we began our existence with. Yes, we had veteran players across the board and two of them were Pro Bowlers that year but the defense was implemented in one training camp and within a few weeks of the start of the season they were playing solid football. Many times that year the defense was left hanging by the inept offense but they played well enough to win more often than not that year (and in fact won one game all by themselves).

Look at the 1993 Oilers who installed the 46 defense in training camp. We had Buddy Ryan as our DC and he's the man where the 46 is concerned but it still took 4-5 weeks into the season before our players started to really make some noise within the scheme.

That's just two examples of installing a defense and how long it took. Somebody in the NFL is trying to install a different defensive scheme just about every year somewhere I think. It doesn't take 5 damn years to put in place. The thing is, why are our players not getting it?

Is the scheme overly complex?
Are our defensive coaches inept?
Are our players stupid?

I tend to doubt that the Texans are doing anything too terribly complicated or outrageous on defense (prior to "simplifying things"). If they were and this system was complicated and cumbersome then we'd have heard players complaining about it already. Still the idea that we have to simple things up every year tends to kind of point to either an overly complex system or overly stupid players.

I question whether we've hired good teachers. It's not just a DC we're talking about. It's the entire staff. We've seen bad coaches here go on to be very good coaches in other places and in other systems. Chris Palmer was our "lousy" offensive coordinator. He goes to New York to work with Eli Manning and he's enjoying his Super Bowl ring now. Vic Fangio's defenses were considered complicated and difficult to learn here but he goes on to coach in Baltimore where he works with linebackers (and they got some linebackers in Baltimore) before going on to being Stanford's defensive coordinator. They arent' doing too bad.

You give these "bad teachers" good students and all of a sudden they're good teachers.

That brings me back to the players. Did we consistently manage to find athletically gifted dumbasses who can't play in a pro defense? If so how are we seemingly finding all of the dumbasses? Is it smarts or just bad football instincts? If it's the latter then you would think that this would show up before we pick them in the draft or sign them in free agency. Bad football instincts can be spotted on tape.

We've seen players put up respectable careers elsewhere, come here, and then sort of slowly fade into mediocrity right before our eyes. We've seen players leave here as busts or scapegoats, go somewhere else, and resurrect their careers. We can't help but notice that our 2003 draft is in the process of trying to go to this years Pro Bowl while playing for Atlanta and Tennessee. Both of those guys left here on the current administrations watch. I agreed (and still believe) that it was time for the Texans and Dunta Robinson to part ways. The "marriage" so to speak was broken. I don't however think it was predestined to fail.

This scheme looked bad with the holdovers from Capers team. It's looked bad with every draft pick and free agent we've added. It always looks bad until we strip it down to a very basic defense that then gets some results. over the last half of the year.

This year it doesn't look like we're even going to see that. At some point if you put enough vanilla on tape then the coaches and players in this league are going to come out and exploit it. We're not going to get away with simplifying this anymore.

I believe the scheme is unsound and I believe that neither of our defensive coordinators during the Kubiak era have been good enough to understand that hence they continue to trot this same basic system out year after year getting the same results regardless of who we plug in at what position.

That these players can't do well in it year after year says a lot about it being no good. That they have usually improved their performance once the system is suitably vanilla'd up tells me that they are not lousy defensive players with bad football instincts by and large. They are not being put in a position to succeed by this coaching staff. True some of them are less than what we'd hope they'd be (Okoye, Kareem Jackson so far) but if you look at most of our players who've been here for more than a year or so you see that they do play better when the coaches get the system out of their way.

I think that pulling the system back to "Defense for Dummies" levels hasn't helped anybody in the long run. When the 1993 Oilers weren't getting Ryans 46 defense he didnt' scale it back to help the short bus guys keep up. He stayed the course, said it will get better, and it did. All Frank has done by following Richard Smith's path is to put a defense on the field that everybody knows on sight. Now there's nowhere else to take this.

The defensive coordinator must go and his replacement must be a known quantity with a known history of success. He should be allowed to hire and/or dismiss his coordinators without interference from Kubiak and he needs to be given the upcoming draft dam near in its entirety to get whatever pieces he needs to fix this.

Nice analysis. But I believe that there can also be another fatal formula............a mediocre GM picking a team of mediocre players taught a mediocre game plan by mediocre coaches>>>>>>each "mediocre" factor becomes additive in producing a poorer and poorer product.

GP
11-15-2010, 04:50 PM
If anybody goes back and checks my post history, you'll see that I was yelling from the rooftops for us to pick up Gene Chizik.

All he does is kick butt. Auburn-Texas-Auburn again...it doesn't matter. he just uproots himself and sets himself back down somewhere and kicks butt.

Gene Chizik is going to be the next big thing. And we should have made a huge run at him back when he was with UT. Of course, what do I know? I'm not an NFL Owner. Because we all know those owners have a secret formula for hiring 100% pure winners as head coaches.

Just watch the guys who consistently produce. Watch the guys who go multiple places and make an impact, then start all over again and do it somewhere else. The problem with this organization is that the owner is notorious for giving his guys an eternity to produce--And any of you think it's ODD that the team on the field ends up reproducing this same mindset in regards of how it goes about ITS business? LOL.

This is a Top, Down problem here. It starts up top, and it has oozed and dripped its way down. And the head coach is a sloth, too. He thinks he has Jeff Fisher'ish tenure or something? I mean, he acts like there's no fire in the theatre. No iceberg just ahead of the ship. LOL. People mistook it for him being calm and being able to weather the storm, and thus being able to keep the team together through rough patches. Wrong.

That franchise is owned and managed by sloths.

Even the Raiders stumbled blindly into a good, decent head coach in Cable. It took them awhile, but they found a guy who might stick. When do we get that same sort of Blind Squirrel treatment? I hope it's this off-season.

badboy
11-15-2010, 04:53 PM
If anybody goes back and checks my post history, you'll see that I was yelling from the rooftops for us to pick up Gene Chizik.

All he does is kick butt. Auburn-Texas-Auburn again...it doesn't matter. he just uproots himself and sets himself back down somewhere and kicks butt.

Gene Chizik is going to be the next big thing. And we should have made a huge run at him back when he was with UT. Of course, what do I know? I'm not an NFL Owner. Because we all know those owners have a secret formula for hiring 100% pure winners as head coaches.

Just watch the guys who consistently produce. Watch the guys who go multiple places and make an impact, then start all over again and do it somewhere else. The problem with this organization is that the owner is notorious for giving his guys an eternity to produce--And any of you think it's ODD that the team on the field ends up reproducing this same mindset in regards of how it goes about ITS business? LOL.

This is a Top, Down problem here. It starts up top, and it has oozed and dripped its way down. And the head coach is a sloth, too. He thinks he has Jeff Fisher'ish tenure or something? I mean, he acts like there's no fire in the theatre. No iceberg just ahead of the ship. LOL. People mistook it for him being calm and being able to weather the storm, and thus being able to keep the team together through rough patches. Wrong.

That franchise is owned and managed by sloths.

Even the Raiders stumbled blindly into a good, decent head coach in Cable. It took them awhile, but they found a guy who might stick. When do we get that same sort of Blind Squirrel treatment? I hope it's this off-season.I have been thinking a lot about him recently. He might even draft FAirley.

CloakNNNdagger
11-15-2010, 05:19 PM
If anybody goes back and checks my post history, you'll see that I was yelling from the rooftops for us to pick up Gene Chizik.

All he does is kick butt. Auburn-Texas-Auburn again...it doesn't matter. he just uproots himself and sets himself back down somewhere and kicks butt.

Gene Chizik is going to be the next big thing. And we should have made a huge run at him back when he was with UT. Of course, what do I know? I'm not an NFL Owner. Because we all know those owners have a secret formula for hiring 100% pure winners as head coaches.

Just watch the guys who consistently produce. Watch the guys who go multiple places and make an impact, then start all over again and do it somewhere else. The problem with this organization is that the owner is notorious for giving his guys an eternity to produce--And any of you think it's ODD that the team on the field ends up reproducing this same mindset in regards of how it goes about ITS business? LOL.

This is a Top, Down problem here. It starts up top, and it has oozed and dripped its way down. And the head coach is a sloth, too. He thinks he has Jeff Fisher'ish tenure or something? I mean, he acts like there's no fire in the theatre. No iceberg just ahead of the ship. LOL. People mistook it for him being calm and being able to weather the storm, and thus being able to keep the team together through rough patches. Wrong.

That franchise is owned and managed by sloths.

Even the Raiders stumbled blindly into a good, decent head coach in Cable. It took them awhile, but they found a guy who might stick. When do we get that same sort of Blind Squirrel treatment? I hope it's this off-season.

GP,

It would be great to get someone in here spitting some FIRE and BRIMSTONE.
BUT, the rah rah college HC has seldom translated into a successful NFL HC.

Towards this very subject, the Dallas Morning News published the best both historical and contemporary review I've ever come across of this scenario.......and timely so.......11/11/10. I think that you and others would enjoy reading it.:


College coaches who head to NFL find 'it's a totally different game' (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/111210dnspogosselin.3dcc5a2.html)

Texans_Chick
11-15-2010, 06:24 PM
I think the best example of turnarounds is Kubiak. From his first year, even working with David Carr, you could tell that the offense had much more direction. Instead of looking like something that didn't resemble a NFL offense at all, it looked better even with that odd roster. That made sense. Kubiak was a proven offensive coordinator in a proven offensive system.

Their organizational structure gives a lot of imput of what they want in players to the GM from the assistant level, which may work when you have a system offense where you know what you want in a player.

I think it works terribly when you don't have a proven defensive system/coordinator. A offensive minded head coach NEEDS a defensive coordinator that he doesn't need a baby sitter for. They shouldn't have to rely on Ray Rhodes being 6 inches from Frank Bush to help him out. The Texans need a defensive coordinator that has experience building a defense, that the players know have experience.

The offensive players very much respect Kubiak. I don't have the same sense that the defensive players respect Bush's ability. The defense was terrible in 2005 before they made the DC change and was terrible in 2008 before they made the DC change. This isn't taking over an established veteran defense. This is taking over a garbage defense--which would have been a hard task for even a good coordinator.

So here we are.

Wolf
11-15-2010, 06:39 PM
Dumbing the play book down at this stage is ridiculous. Why does it take an entire half to adjust to the opponent? There has been at least three maybe four games that we gave away the first half and then looked reasonable in second half. That is on coaches. Why do we insist on drafting corners that can not cover like Quin and Jackson when our Dline can not disrupt the QB? Why do we keep drafting light DTs that can not use their "speed" to get to QB or collapse the pocket? Why do we not address free safety knowing all the above? We have not had a good defensive backfield EVER!!!

what caught my attention was during the Jags game. The announcers commented on how the Jags defense changed it up after Walter made a few plays and I was thinking "I don't think I have heard anything like that from a Texan defense"


hell maybe Bush scripts his plays too :sarcasm:

:specnatz::smiliedance:

hradhak
11-15-2010, 06:55 PM
To me the problem is multifactorial.
1) Bush has dumbed down the defense to the point where a QB can look at the defense and dissect our defense. It is far too easy to see when we are in man / zone, who is blitzing, and who will be open based on our pass defense. I can even see it most of the time.
2) Bush has put his players in a position where they can't make plays on defense. They are left in a very soft zone where all the receiver has to do is run a few yards down field, turn around and the ball is right there. Yes, we aren't giving up the big play, but we're also not stopping them.
3) The players aren't required to make reads as to what the offense is showing.
4) I think we are putting a lot of the blame on Bush, but we haven't made any comments regarding the d-line coach, linebacker coach, secondary coach, etc. Are these guys any good? I have no idea who they are. They have to share the blame as much as Bush (if not more).

Wolf
11-15-2010, 07:03 PM
i'd give Johnny holland a pass .. he coached two DROY with Demeco and Ryans (if i am correct)

Gibbs (secondary) .. I am not sure on
Kolar ---the front 4 sure isn't like in Buffalo (I figured there would be a huge impact)


funny thing about our "blitzing" when is the last time we saw someone shoot the gap and get a clean hit on a QB .. where we made an offensive linemen miss his read based on our defense? ...

after watching our blitzing , if someone decide to play electronic football, they'd think that game invented the 46 defense.
http://scrapbooklady.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834528d5569e201287768ed77970c-pi

CloakNNNdagger
11-15-2010, 07:12 PM
what caught my attention was during the Jags game. The announcers commented on how the Jags defense changed it up after Walter made a few plays and I was thinking "I don't think I have heard anything like that from a Texan defense"


hell maybe Bush scripts his plays too :sarcasm:

:specnatz::smiliedance:


Bush, according to his DEFENSE PLAYBOOK, calls in very specific plays as appropriate.:

"Guys, if it's a PASS play.............DEFEND the PASS!"

"Guys, if it's a RUN.....................DEFEND the RUN!"

"Guys, if it's NEITHER..............YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN!"

Lucky
11-15-2010, 07:56 PM
The defensive coordinator must go and his replacement must be a known quantity with a known history of success. He should be allowed to hire and/or dismiss his coordinators without interference from Kubiak and he needs to be given the upcoming draft dam near in its entirety to get whatever pieces he needs to fix this.
(Shakes head) So you're suggesting that letting Kubiak re-organize (again) is the solution? Even if I thought Kubiak could bring in a top DC, that doesn't solve the central issue this team has. That's leadership. And it starts at the top. Not at the coordinator level.


2. Kubiak's coaching philosophy dictates unity among his coachs. He will only hire a defensive coordinator he considers a friend and trusts.
Long time, no read, powda. Glad to see you back.

The assumption is that Kubiak could hire someone other than a buddy. The reality is that a top DC wouldn't want to work under Kubiak. If he's not dead yet (and I think he has at least one foot in the grave), he would be Dead Man Walking in 2011. The only reason Kubiak was given an extension last offseason was so he could keep most of his coaches and hire a new OC. And all he could come up with then was another Friend of Kubiak.

A offensive minded head coach NEEDS a defensive coordinator that he doesn't need a baby sitter for.
You once made a point that Kubiak had few choices when selecting Richard Smith as his DC in 2006. Frank Bush was actually his guy, and he got him in 2009. So can you tell me why Kubiak would be able to bring in a top DC in 2011, after failing miserably twice thus far?

I'm just not buying into the inevitability of the defense's failure. Spagnuolo turned around the Rams defense. Mike Smith did the same for the Falcons. In less time with less talent. How? They knew what they were doing. Gary Kubiak is clueless regarding defensive football. And I don't think a head coach can succeed without having a grasp of the entire game.

bckey
11-15-2010, 10:40 PM
Talk about a ghost of disenchanted past.

Welcome back powda.

I was thinking the same thing. Welcome back Powda! Sporting a different Casserly avatar.

DexmanC
11-15-2010, 10:53 PM
[QUOTE=Lucky;1581703] The only reason Kubiak was given an extension last offseason was so he could keep most of his coaches and hire a new OC. And all he could come up with then was another Friend of Kubiak.

QUOTE]

You're sayin' Kubiak "FoK'ed" up?

Kimmy
11-15-2010, 10:56 PM
http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/simple20jack.jpg

brakos82
11-16-2010, 12:55 AM
http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/simple20jack.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb23/brakos82/simple20frank.jpg

Kimmy
11-16-2010, 08:29 AM
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb23/brakos82/simple20frank.jpg

Thanks! I was too tired last night to mess with it LOL

TheCD
11-16-2010, 09:50 AM
That reference muh-muh-muh-maykes me happy.

Hervoyel
11-16-2010, 10:24 AM
Nice analysis. But I believe that there can also be another fatal formula............a mediocre GM picking a team of mediocre players taught a mediocre game plan by mediocre coaches>>>>>>each "mediocre" factor becomes additive in producing a poorer and poorer product.


That might be true but just like last time with Casserly, Capers/Fangio, the 3-4, and our roster at the time I can't allow myself to think that. To believe that we have spent what will be 5 years at the conclusion of this season and have bad management and bad coaches selecting bad players to run a bad system and need to start all over again is just too brutal a thought for me to contemplate at this point.

Besides, we've seen many of these same players perform well at times. We know it's in there. We know many of them are capable of better. I can't dismiss the entire defensive side of the roster like that. We've missed with some picks. Guys we've picked early and paid well have been at best adequate and sometimes good instead of great. I have to believe we can add some free agents and a good (defensive) draft and be in business. The offense needs nothing you can't get in free agency along with some sensible decisions from the OC and Kubiak. Every year we see free agents appear and get signed by other teams who could and would help us. It's time to get off the sidelines and get back in the game. So the Texans have made free agent moves that haven't worked out in the past. The answer isn't to just stop trying in free agency (nor is it to try and sign them all, that's wonky Dan Snyder logic).

The Texans so remind me of Drayton McClane after he signed Drabek and Swindell and they didn't work out. It's like he went into a little shell for a while and wouldn't take another chance on a Pitcher or really any big free agent again until finally he got back in the saddle and the Astros signed Pettite and Clemens.

Hervoyel
11-16-2010, 10:34 AM
(Shakes head) So you're suggesting that letting Kubiak re-organize (again) is the solution? Even if I thought Kubiak could bring in a top DC, that doesn't solve the central issue this team has. That's leadership. And it starts at the top. Not at the coordinator level.


Long time, no read, powda. Glad to see you back.

The assumption is that Kubiak could hire someone other than a buddy. The reality is that a top DC wouldn't want to work under Kubiak. If he's not dead yet (and I think he has at least one foot in the grave), he would be Dead Man Walking in 2011. The only reason Kubiak was given an extension last offseason was so he could keep most of his coaches and hire a new OC. And all he could come up with then was another Friend of Kubiak.


You once made a point that Kubiak had few choices when selecting Richard Smith as his DC in 2006. Frank Bush was actually his guy, and he got him in 2009. So can you tell me why Kubiak would be able to bring in a top DC in 2011, after failing miserably twice thus far?

I'm just not buying into the inevitability of the defense's failure. Spagnuolo turned around the Rams defense. Mike Smith did the same for the Falcons. In less time with less talent. How? They knew what they were doing. Gary Kubiak is clueless regarding defensive football. And I don't think a head coach can succeed without having a grasp of the entire game.

Oh no, don't mistake my meaning. I want them to hire Bill Cowher. I wouldn't be immediately critical of them hiring Jon Gruden. I would be interested in seeing Rob Ryan or Harbaugh show up. I want Kubiak gone (was the soap not a clear enough signal?) but I have no illusions that Bob McNair isn't looking for any thread of a reason to keep Kubiak and give him another opportunity to get it right.

I just don't think he'll do it (fire Kubiak) for reasons that are known only to Bob McNair. It's unfortunate I think because the grades are in. He is what he is.

Which then leads me to think "Well what do I think Bob will do to correct this?" Answers there range from "Nothing, it's all about injuries and the players made too many mistakes" to..... I don't know? This is about the biggest move I can picture him making. Force Gary to let Frank go, clean house on that side of the ball and bring in a known quantity DC who can install a system that has worked somewhere else prior to being installed here.

Then, when you know the system is good and you know the coach and his assistants have had success elsewhere you can finally look at what the players are doing and decide whether or not we're drafting players or tomato cans.

Pantherstang84
11-16-2010, 10:43 AM
Oh no, don't mistake my meaning. I want them to hire Bill Cowher. I wouldn't be immediately critical of them hiring Jon Gruden. I would be interested in seeing Rob Ryan or Harbaugh show up. I want Kubiak gone (was the soap not a clear enough signal?) but I have no illusions that Bob McNair isn't looking for any thread of a reason to keep Kubiak and give him another opportunity to get it right.

I just don't think he'll do it (unfortunately) for reasons that are known only to Bob McNair.

Which then leads me to think "Well what do I think Bob will do to correct this?" Answers there range from "Nothing, it's all about injuries and the players made too many mistakes" to..... I don't know? This is about the biggest move I can picture him making. Force Gary to let Frank go, clean house on that side of the ball and bring in a known quantity DC who can install a system that has worked somewhere else prior to being installed here.

Then, when you know the system is good and you know the coach and his assistants have had success elsewhere you can finally look at what the players are doing and decide whether or not we're drafting players or tomato cans.

It's a culture thing Herv. The players make mistakes because their coaches don't hold them accountable. There is no standard. This is a milder case of :wadepalm: I don't know if the players have quit on Gary yet. However, they are not giving him their best effort for whatever reason and that reflects on coaching as well.

Hervoyel
11-16-2010, 10:49 AM
It's a culture thing Herv. The players make mistakes because their coaches don't hold them accountable. There is no standard. This is a milder case of :wadepalm: I don't know if the players have quit on Gary yet. However, they are not giving him their best effort for whatever reason and that reflects on coaching as well.


I agree. I think the seed was planted last season and this year it's bearing fruit. Gary needs to go but if McNair won't do that then amputating his DC and that side of his coaching staff and replacing them with a better one is my choice if that's all we can get.

Truth be told I feel like that's even kind of doubtful. The possibility of a lock out will end up leaving us as-is until we stink up whatever passes for the 2011 season too.

Texans_Chick
11-16-2010, 11:42 AM
(Shakes head) So you're suggesting that letting Kubiak re-organize (again) is the solution? Even if I thought Kubiak could bring in a top DC, that doesn't solve the central issue this team has. That's leadership. And it starts at the top. Not at the coordinator level.


Long time, no read, powda. Glad to see you back.

The assumption is that Kubiak could hire someone other than a buddy. The reality is that a top DC wouldn't want to work under Kubiak. If he's not dead yet (and I think he has at least one foot in the grave), he would be Dead Man Walking in 2011. The only reason Kubiak was given an extension last offseason was so he could keep most of his coaches and hire a new OC. And all he could come up with then was another Friend of Kubiak.


You once made a point that Kubiak had few choices when selecting Richard Smith as his DC in 2006. Frank Bush was actually his guy, and he got him in 2009. So can you tell me why Kubiak would be able to bring in a top DC in 2011, after failing miserably twice thus far?

I'm just not buying into the inevitability of the defense's failure. Spagnuolo turned around the Rams defense. Mike Smith did the same for the Falcons. In less time with less talent. How? They knew what they were doing. Gary Kubiak is clueless regarding defensive football. And I don't think a head coach can succeed without having a grasp of the entire game.

I am not sure that Kubiak could bring in a top DC after failing twice. But I think if you can Kubiak, you also better be canning Rick Smith too because Kubiak was the only possible reason you would have gone with Smith. In the uncertain labor year, it may be short term and long term easier just to fix your defense instead of blowing up both the offense and defense and fixing both, or have lesser qualified people trying to run Kubiak's offensive scheme. Jerry Jones doesn't have the GM issue with blowing up his coaching staff because he is the GM.

There may be two different points of view on this which you can't discount given the way that Texans PR goes to save face:

1. He was the only choice (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/01/initial_thoughts_on_the_frank.html) and they just chose wrong.

2. Bush wasn't the choice he wanted but that is what they put out for public consumption. Kubiak said he was going to interview a bunch of candidates but it was reported that he didn't. Media reports at the time (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/01/my_video_essay_of_the_tita.html) said that the Texans and Saints were interested in Gregg Williams. Sean Payton took a $250,000 paycut to help pay Williams salary--who else was bidding on him--Green Bay? Big pockets were the Texans who already had a history of paying on coaches. They also said that the Texans asked for permission to talk to Jerry Gray from Washington, but that the Redskins refused permission. If Bush was really their guy, why even ask about Gray.

At the time, I thought how the Bush hiring was conducted was curious (http://blogs.chron.com/texanschick/2009/01/initial_thoughts_on_the_frank.html). They said they were going to interview multiple people for the job and then say they only interviewed Bush.

JB
11-16-2010, 11:46 AM
They said they were going to interview multiple people for the job and then say they only interviewed Bush.

Perhaps because no one else was granted permission/ wanted to interview to work for Kubiak?

Texans_Chick
11-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Perhaps because no one else was granted permission/ wanted to interview to work for Kubiak?

Bush was on staff already. Williams had worked with him. He may have avoided the job because 1. Williams was sold that the Saints job would be easier; 2. Williams wanted to let Bush have the Texans job.

As you may recall, there was a strangely gushing article about Bush where Williams was quoted saying various nice things about him.

Mike Nolan was one of the choices out there too. Marinelli was signed almost immediately with a team he had a relationship with.

None of the choices at the time looked particularly great, but the choice of Frank Bush was particularly hope snuffing.

Given how the season is going, there are a number of experienced DCs that may come available through head coach firings.

Double Barrel
11-16-2010, 01:29 PM
Hopefully (IMO) there is one more OC available from one particular HC firing...

stingray
11-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Hopefully (IMO) there is one more OC available from one particular HC firing...

Norv Turner?

Texans_Chick
11-16-2010, 02:41 PM
Hopefully (IMO) there is one more OC available from one particular HC firing...

So do you want a do-over with the offense or do you want an OC to run the same offense?

If you want the same offense, then Kubiak is the guy that should run it--few people I can think of who would be better at that. If you want a different offense, you might have to make significant changes to the line. (Along with all the necessary changes on defense).

Lucky
11-17-2010, 07:40 PM
I am not sure that Kubiak could bring in a top DC after failing twice. But I think if you can Kubiak, you also better be canning Rick Smith too because Kubiak was the only possible reason you would have gone with Smith.
I have no problem with Rick Smith getting the boot. What has he accomplished? I see nothing special from his results. The best draft of the Kubiak era (2006) came when Smith was still in Denver.

So do you want a do-over with the offense or do you want an OC to run the same offense?

If you want the same offense, then Kubiak is the guy that should run it--
This offense is not so special that Kubiak is essential. There are plenty WCO coordinators available every year. Greg Knapp had to take a position coach job. I'm not crazy about losing Gary Kubiak the coordinator (though he's not the greatest playcaller I've seen). But, he's not worth keeping if Gary Kubiak the head coach has to stay along for the ride.

I'm not buying all of the hand-wringing I read regarding coaching changes and the potential lockout. The defense must change, anyway. Even if it does take a season for the next coach to implement his offensive system, at least there's hope for overall improvement. We're running in quicksand with Kubiak. Waste a 6th year with his milquetoast coaching style? That would akin to keeping David Carr in 2006. A huge fail.

TexansSeminole
11-17-2010, 10:42 PM
Something that all the great defenses do that we are terrible at is movement and placement before the snap. If you watch the Steeler's defense before the snap, they are constantly moving around trying to confuse the QB and offensive line. The movement isn't without organization, as they seem to end up in an organized formation as the ball is snapped.

The Texans do very little moving around before the snap and their placement tends to be pretty terrible as the ball is snapped, especially in the secondary.

This problem further proves our inability to confuse offenses. We never seem to catch the offense off guard with any of our defensive plays. If we are going to run a cover 2, we are going to be lining up in the same formation every single time. It takes one game for NFL coaches (real ones) to figure that out.

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2010, 09:00 AM
Something that all the great defenses do that we are terrible at is movement and placement before the snap. If you watch the Steeler's defense before the snap, they are constantly moving around trying to confuse the QB and offensive line. The movement isn't without organization, as they seem to end up in an organized formation as the ball is snapped.

The Texans do very little moving around before the snap and their placement tends to be pretty terrible as the ball is snapped, especially in the secondary.

This problem further proves our inability to confuse offenses. We never seem to catch the offense off guard with any of our defensive plays. If we are going to run a cover 2, we are going to be lining up in the same formation every single time. It takes one game for NFL coaches (real ones) to figure that out.

Good observation, TS. The problem is that when we have moved around, it has been more confusing to own than our opponents. Coaching deficiency at its best. Hence, the dumb-down schemes.

BigBull17
11-18-2010, 10:34 AM
I just want a defense that want's a big fat **** to clog the middle. I want a defense that want's speed at corner and doesn't want "interchangeable" strong safeties that couldn't cover a JR WR. I want a defense that want's to actually COVER A TIGHT END!!!!!! Give me a ball hawk free safety. Give me at least one fast play maker cb. Give me a damn 15th ranked defense.