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wagonhed
11-15-2010, 09:59 AM
yeah, I went there, I made a thread.


discuss why Jon Gruden is the best choice for the Texans in 2011!

:doot:

HardKnockTexan
11-15-2010, 10:07 AM
I think anybody would be better than Kubiak right now but my first choice wouldn't be Gruden. Our offense is pretty solid. We need someone who knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball. Cowher or Brian Billick are my top choices.

Jackie Chiles
11-15-2010, 10:09 AM
I think anybody would be better than Kubiak right now but my first choice wouldn't be Gruden. Our offense is pretty solid. We need someone who knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball. Cowher or Brian Billick are my top choices.

Billick is an offensive guy that inherited an all-time defense with the Ravens.

Runner
11-15-2010, 10:11 AM
I'll vote for the Dayton Flyer.

HardKnockTexan
11-15-2010, 10:11 AM
Billick is an offensive guy that inherited an all-time defense with the Ravens.

True that. I didn't Inception Billick enough. So I guess I gotta go with Cowher or Dungy then.

infantrycak
11-15-2010, 10:14 AM
The most seamless transition guy would be Dungy but I don't think he will do it. I don't like Gruden at all.

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 10:16 AM
UGH. Dungy? No thanks. I couldn't stand to watch him on our sidelines. No way no how. Only HC I hate more than Cowher, and I could get used to Cowher.

Besides, what has Dungy done besides be the beneficiary of the best QB of all time and a top 3 franchise?

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 10:16 AM
The most seamless transition guy would be Dungy but I don't think he will do it. I don't like Gruden at all.

Neither does Warren Sapp apparently, given his comments while they were discussing Chilly's situation in Minnesota.

drewmar74
11-15-2010, 10:17 AM
Billick is an offensive guy that inherited an all-time defense with the Ravens.

Yeah. And some of Billick's offenses in Baltimore were offensive.

Dilfer, Boller, Kordell Stewart? Eek. I'll pass.

And Chucky's last year or two in Tampa were kinda sketchy, too. Seems that I remember lots of QB changes, etc.

Now, if we could get Gruden and Monte Kiffin that would be fine but I know that aint' happening.

At this point, I don't care. Just make a change, Bob..... To quote BR5-49 "Sometimes I gotta do something, even if its wrong."

Make a change Bob.

HardKnockTexan
11-15-2010, 10:19 AM
UGH. Dungy? No thanks. I couldn't stand to watch him on our sidelines. No way no how. Only HC I hate more than Cowher, and I could get used to Cowher.

Besides, what has Dungy done besides be the beneficiary of the best QB of all time and a top 3 franchise?

He built the Buccaneers team that Gruden won a super bowl with. After that, he was a big part of making the Colts who they are. I'm not a big Dungy fan but there's not arguing that the man knows how to build a team.

Cjeremy635
11-15-2010, 10:21 AM
I don't want Gruden. I like his fire for the sport, but I don't think he's a great HC.

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 10:21 AM
He built the Buccaneers team that Gruden won a super bowl with. After that, he was a big part of making the Colts who they are. I'm not a big Dungy fan but there's not arguing that the man knows how to build a team.
Sounds like something we might be saying about Kubiak in a few years. Building a team doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to Texans fans right now, considering our situation.

HardKnockTexan
11-15-2010, 10:26 AM
Sounds like something we might be saying about Kubiak in a few years. Building a team doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to Texans fans right now, considering our situation.

Kubiak and Smith have FAILED in making this franchise a winner. If Dungy can come in and put the right guys in the right places (from coordinators to players) then he's exactly what this team needs. He did get Manning which makes any team better but he also hired the guys that knew how to get the most out of Manning.

Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 10:29 AM
yeah, I went there, I made a thread.


discuss why Jon Gruden is the best choice for the Texans in 2011!

:doot:

I don't think he's a bad choice at all. He's a "missing ingredient" kind of coach much like they were saying on ESPN earlier Sunday about a Gruden to the Cowboys scenario. He can take a team with talent and add his energy and motivational ability and get them going pretty fast. He's maybe not so much the long-term builder if you want that kind of guy.

It's a hire I would not pan immediately. I'd consider it worth a try. If you look at us and believe that the problem is the coach and his staff then you're saying we have talent and we're being held back by the quality of our coaching. If you're right in that assumption then Gruden should make a positive difference right away.

TheCD
11-15-2010, 10:32 AM
I don't think he's a bad choice at all. He's a "missing ingredient" kind of coach much like they were saying on ESPN earlier Sunday about a Gruden to the Cowboys scenario. He can take a team with talent and add his energy and motivational ability and get them going pretty fast. He's maybe not so much the long-term builder if you want that kind of guy.

It's a hire I would not pan immediately. I'd consider it worth a try. If you look at us and believe that the problem is the coach and his staff then you're saying we have talent and we're being held back by the quality of our coaching. If you're right in that assumption then Gruden should make a positive difference right away.

I've never seen anything with Gruden that has impressed me. He inherited a franchise that was in good shape, and within a short time left it in shambles. For being an offensive genius, he never did anything of merit without Gannon and Rice/Brown as a head coach, much the same with Billick.

For what it's worth Dungy repeatedly keeps saying that he is not interested in returning to coaching, so I don't think he's even a possibility.

nero THE zero
11-15-2010, 10:41 AM
Tangibles:
176-95
1 SB Championship
5 Division Championships

Intangibles:
Good offensive mind
Tough, no-nonsense coach
Young

mussop
11-15-2010, 10:43 AM
No thanks! Gruden and his stupid chucky faces needs to go to the cowgirls.

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 10:44 AM
Tangibles:
176-95
1 SB Championship
5 Division Championships

Hard to argue with results like that.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 10:45 AM
Gruden is not my first choice. I'd be happier to see him here than what we currently have, but I have my reservations about Gruden. He built a great team in Oakland while working for a control freak owner. On the other hand, he collected QBs like trading cards in TB, which tells me he can't coach QBs worth a damn. On the other hand, the last couple years with the Bucs, he had very little developed talent and still went 8-8, which I thought was a pretty good coaching job.

So I'm torn on Gruden. Cowher is my first choice. I know one thing, and that is whoever succeeds Kubiak needs to come from a background of winning as a head coach. And he needs to have some attitude, IMO. I'm not saying that's a must for all situations, but I think this team, at this point, needs a boot in the ass more than most teams.

c10x
11-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Rob Ryan.

Why you guys are clamoring for someone thats out of football I'll never know.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 11:13 AM
Rob Ryan.

Why you guys are clamoring for someone thats out of football I'll never know.

Then you didn't read the thread, because I'm pretty sure people explained it.

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2010, 11:16 AM
I'll stick it out with Kubiak, a new defensive staff and GM before going to Gruden.

otisbean
11-15-2010, 11:20 AM
Tangibles:
176-95
1 SB Championship
5 Division Championships

Intangibles:
Good offensive mind
Tough, no-nonsense coach
Young

As a Raiders and Bucs fan, I can tell you Grudens a much better coach than some here think. I've watched every game he coached for the Raiders and Bucs. For those that say he took "Dungys" team to a super bowl, let's not forget who they beat in that super bowl, the team he built in Oak. He also took Oak to another Afc championship, and lost a divisional game to the Pats because of the stupid tuck rule, horrible rule btw!

His last few years in Tampa his teams suffered a significant amount of injuries to key players.

You may not like him for whatever reason but he's a good coach. For those that say what has he benefitted from having great players, Freaking Brad Johnson was his QB for his superbowl team and Gannon improved greatly under Gruden. Besides what most great coaches have great players

kiwitexansfan
11-15-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm on Team Gruden because I think we have the talent to win (maybe excluding the secondary). Gruden is the kind of coach who can over 5-6 seasons get people to produce before his act wears thin and the team turns on him.

I would happily buy into 5-6 years of good production after the years of mediocrity.

Traditionally I have been a fan of stability, but I genuinely think Kubiak does not have what it takes to be a Head Coach. I see it as a failure in the interview process by the Texans to identify this.

If Kubiak would like to stay on as the OC I would gladly do that, but we really need a 'real' Head Coach.

Hervoyel
11-15-2010, 11:34 AM
As a Raiders and Bucs fan, I can tell you Grudens a much better coach than some here think. I've watched every game he coached for the Raiders and Bucs. For those that say he took "Dungys" team to a super bowl, let's not forget who they beat in that super bowl, the team he built in Oak. He also took Oak to another Afc championship, and lost a divisional game to the Pats because of the stupid tuck rule, horrible rule btw!

His last few years in Tampa his teams suffered a significant amount of injuries to key players.

You may not like him for whatever reason but he's a good coach. For those that say what has he benefitted from having great players, Freaking Brad Johnson was his QB for his superbowl team and Gannon improved greatly under Gruden. Besides what most great coaches have great players

Gruden's first job as an offensive coordinator was in Philadelphia under Ray Rhodes who currently lurks around the Texans organization as a... well I don't know exactly what it is he does here. I know he doesn't do anything too stressful but if he's got anybody's ear here when it comes time to look for a coach, well I imagine he'll be a Gruden advocate.

Grudens Bucs teams also got old. It happens and rebuilding is part of the business. People forget that the deal that put Gruden in Tampa Bay also sent a bunch of their draft picks to the Raiders. 1's in 2002 and 2003 plus 2's in 2002 and 2004. Hard to rebuild an aging team with few premier draft picks.

Thorn
11-15-2010, 11:34 AM
There's something about Gruden I don't like, don't know quite what it is, but I don't like him. However, if you forced me to choose between Kubiak and Gruden I'd take Gruden for no other reason than it's a change.

Dread-Head
11-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Gruden got a Superbowl ring with a team Tony Dungee BUILT. He's a younger version of Barry Switzer. How many play off games did he win AFTER he tok Dungee's team to a superbowl? So unless you plan on getting either Jimmy Johnson OR Tony Dungee in here to build a team for him to take credit for let Chucky stay on ESPN where he belongs.

eriadoc
11-15-2010, 11:49 AM
Gruden got a Superbowl ring with a team Tony Dungee BUILT. He's a younger version of Barry Switzer. How many play off games did he win AFTER he tok Dungee's team to a superbowl? So unless you plan on getting either Jimmy Johnson OR Tony Dungee in here to build a team for him to take credit for let Chucky stay on ESPN where he belongs.

First off, I'd be OK with Chucky taking a team that Kubiak built to the SB. Second, you're forgetting the Raiders in your blase dismissal of Gruden. Who's to say that Dungy could have coached the team he built to a win over the team Gruden built?

nero THE zero
11-15-2010, 11:55 AM
Gruden got a Superbowl ring with a team Tony Dungee BUILT. He's a younger version of Barry Switzer. How many play off games did he win AFTER he tok Dungee's team to a superbowl? So unless you plan on getting either Jimmy Johnson OR Tony Dungee in here to build a team for him to take credit for let Chucky stay on ESPN where he belongs.

If that's true, then how do you explain his success in Oakland?

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 12:04 PM
Seems like the majority of people's problems with Gruden are personal. Remember what happened the last time we hired a HC who was so likable, noone didn't like him?

Hagar
11-15-2010, 12:07 PM
Gruden: "I probably will coach again" (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/11/17/gruden-i-probably-will-coach-again/)

“I love this game very much,” Gruden said. “This job gives me the opportunity to see the game at a different angle, and I’ll be honest — I just fell in love with it. I want to get good at it. I really like the team I’m on at ESPN. They’re really trying to help me be good.”

Granted, this was written in 2009, but this doesn't sound like a guy who wants to coach again any time soon. I think he wants to be John Madden.

stingray
11-15-2010, 12:07 PM
I want Jim Harbaugh.

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Also someone help me understand this, please.

As Texans fans, we want a Superbowl. Right? So the argument is, we don't want Gruden, because he won a Superbowl with a team he didn't build. And, um, we don't want to win with the team we already have in place... we want to rebuild again? Is that it? You all would rather have a coach good at building teams but not necessarily winning over a coach who can win and win big with talented teams? How does that make sense?

stingray
11-15-2010, 12:16 PM
Also someone help me understand this, please.

As Texans fans, we want a Superbowl. Right? So the argument is, we don't want Gruden, because he won a Superbowl with a team he didn't build. And, um, we don't want to win with the team we already have in place... we want to rebuild again? Is that it? You all would rather have a coach good at building teams but not necessarily winning over a coach who can win and win big with talented teams? How does that make sense?

Because it's impossible to please everybody. People will ***** no matter who they hire. And I do agree with with you. Gruden makes sense here. This team got talent, just needs someone who is strong willed and takes no crap.

Ole Miss Texan
11-15-2010, 12:27 PM
Also someone help me understand this, please.

As Texans fans, we want a Superbowl. Right? So the argument is, we don't want Gruden, because he won a Superbowl with a team he didn't build. And, um, we don't want to win with the team we already have in place... we want to rebuild again? Is that it? You all would rather have a coach good at building teams but not necessarily winning over a coach who can win and win big with talented teams? How does that make sense?

That arguement comes fromt he fact that Dungy took the Bucs to the playoffs 4 of the 5 years preceeding Gruden showing up. Quite different from the Texans current situation.

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Just wanted to say that I'm on Team Gruden as well.

nero THE zero
11-15-2010, 12:34 PM
That arguement comes fromt he fact that Dungy took the Bucs to the playoffs 4 of the 5 years preceeding Gruden showing up. Quite different from the Texans current situation.

That's assuming the reason the Texans aren't going to the playoffs is because of the players and not the coach.

Texan4Ever
11-15-2010, 12:35 PM
I'm a proud member of Team Gruden (as you can tell by my avatar). Anyways, here are my reasons for hiring him:

A.) He can light a fire in players asses (both literally and figuratively)

B.) He understands the game well from an offensive standpoint and given Matt Schaub, Andre Johnson, Arian Foster, and Co. we can only get better with Gruden.

C.) He understands what works for some players doesn't work for the next guy. He can get personal with players and get them motivated.

D.) Not once have I seen a Gruden coached team come off unprepared or not expecting to play.

E.) He's young

F.) Good talent evaluator IMO and he will let the DC coach the defense and stay the hell out unless if the DC screws up real bad.

Norg
11-15-2010, 12:38 PM
Dungy built the team Gruden Won with

At not only does Dungy know how to build teams he knows how to win try like 9 years of 12+ wins

nero THE zero
11-15-2010, 12:39 PM
Out of curiosity, who was Oakland's DC from '98-'01?

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 12:42 PM
This is how I feel about Cowher vs. Gruden. Cowher was in arguably the best franchise in history, with a legendary DC, owner, etc. All of his success came from there as far as I know. Gruden had success in two franchises, one of which is one of the worst run franchises, another is mediocre. There is no way anyone can say Gruden benefited from being a part of good franchises. Gruden has shown he can win with a built team. Cowher may be able to do the same, but he hasn't shown it so we don't know.

FirstTexansFan
11-15-2010, 12:45 PM
Maybe I missed it, but I've not seen Marty Shottenheimer's name come up. Good? Bad? I'm curious :)

stingray
11-15-2010, 12:51 PM
Maybe I missed it, but I've not seen Marty Shottenheimer's name come up. Good? Bad? I'm curious :)

Marty has said numerous times that he does not want to coach again.

BullNation4Life
11-15-2010, 12:57 PM
yeah, I went there, I made a thread.


discuss why Jon Gruden is the best choice for the Texans in 2011!

:doot:

oh ok lets fire n mediocre coach and hire another mediocre coach who happen to win one Super Bowl with another coaches players then did barely anything after.

Gruden TB - 57-55 in 7 years
Kubiak Hou - 35 - 38 in 5 years

what was the definition of insanity again?

Dread-Head
11-15-2010, 12:58 PM
First off, I'd be OK with Chucky taking a team that Kubiak built to the SB. Second, you're forgetting the Raiders in your blase dismissal of Gruden. Who's to say that Dungy could have coached the team he built to a win over the team Gruden built?


I take nothing away from the Raider team that got royally screwed via Thomasina Brady's Fumble in the snow that day. But I stand by my assessment of Gruden.

drewmar74
11-15-2010, 12:59 PM
Gruden - Sure.
Cowher - Great.
Billick - Why not.
Either Schottenheimer - Go for it.

See, I look at it like this:

We're sitting at a table to eat a meal.

What sits on our plate right now is a huge steaming pile of dog crap. Mastiff sized. The dog was even courteous enough to put the DQ swirl on the top of the pile. Inside of the pile, if you look close, you can see chewed up hopes. There is some corn.... and busted achilles tendon.... some positive press clippings.... Oh, hey, there's the prime of AJ's career in there, too!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Pkzn7L6JBydhDM:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/cocek/July2007001.jpg&t=1

Wow - that stinks.

So, when we talk about other coaches, its like we have all these other still-covered mystery dishes on the table, too. All of them are relatively unknown but you have to believe that they couldn't be worse than the mastiff sized steaming turd that is on our plate now.

In summation - Kubiak regime = steaming mastiff turd. Any new coach with solid pedigree = not mastiff turd.

Just gimme some change come January.... and take this plate away, please. I ate my fill last year.

BigBull17
11-15-2010, 01:05 PM
I'll stick it out with Kubiak, a new defensive staff and GM before going to Gruden.

Absolutely not. Gruden over Kubiak everyday, twice on Sunday. Kubiak couldn't hold Gruden's coaching jock.

BigBull17
11-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Dungy built the team Gruden Won with

At not only does Dungy know how to build teams he knows how to win try like 9 years of 12+ wins

And 8 years of getting donkey punched from the play-offs from the top seed. No thanks to Dungy.

Ole Miss Texan
11-15-2010, 01:17 PM
That's assuming the reason the Texans aren't going to the playoffs is because of the players and not the coach.
That's a very valid counter-arguement. Would another coach have been able to coach this team into multiple playoff appearances since 2006? Maybe so... 2009 was so so close to playoffs. Would Indy's dominance of the division still have been too much??

I think the Texans have a really good roster, lots of really good players. It's time for them to turn the corner and be consistent winners. We are FAR from the 18 win Texans of 2002-2005 and needing a new coach to take over. We're a well build team in my opinion. It's just a matter of if Kubiak is going to be the guy or is someone else? But I do think someone is going to make this team into a consistent playoff team during the next several years.

Interesting to look at Bill Billichick's history as a head coach. First 6 seasons as a head coach he only had 1 winning season. 5 years as the Browns HC, 1 winning season, 1 playoff appearance. Then goes on to be be an assistant for 4 season and then moves to New England in 2000. The 6 previous seasons, the Patriots had made the playoffs 4 times with 1 Super Bowl appearance, and only had 1 losing season. Billichick gets there, goes 5-11 the first season and then the rest is history: Dynasty.

Hardcore Texan
11-15-2010, 01:25 PM
Dick Vermeil FTW!!!

I want a coach that weeps......that way he can join me on Sundays. :cry2:

IDEXAN
11-15-2010, 01:36 PM
I really think Grudens a TV personality who a lot of people like because they think he's kinda cute & entertaining who got lucky several years ago in the NFL by inheriting a talented team in TB which was put toghether by Coach Dungy. He won a SB with that team, but after it got old and it's talent faded away, he was fired for failing to win anymore in TB.

Dutchrudder
11-15-2010, 01:39 PM
The more I learn about Gruden, the more I like him. Here are a few thoughts on the various subjects:

The Colts have been just fine in building their team since Dungy was there, so I kind of doubt it was all him. I think Bill Polian (Colts GM) has established himself as a good evaluator of talent in the draft and free agency. Their team hasn't missed a beat since Dungy left, and I would bet their talent evaluators haven't changed much in the last two years. Oh and by the way, Dungy was FIRED by the Bucs after a 9-7 season, then he was signed by the Colts. He was a good coach in the regular season, but couldn't get it done in the playoffs, just like at Indy for the most part. By the way, Dungy is a Defensive coach, and I honestly can't think of a year the Colts D was ever top 10. They were consistently an average D with a brilliant offense.

OTOH, Gruden can be credited with building a competent Raiders team out of a terrible team to begin with. They did well under his coaching, and he was able to win the division in his THIRD YEAR as HC. He took that team from last place to first place in 3 years, and two more playoff appearances after that. That tells me that he CAN build a team, or at least has the common sense to fix the areas of need. Honestly if he can take a last place Raiders team and turn them into an AFC Championship contender with Rich Gannon for a QB, I think he could do wonders with the Texans.

As far as the "Gruden took Dungy's team to the Super Bowl" talk, just STOP IT NOW. The fact that he took Dungy's team to the Super Bowl is a POSITIVE, not a negative. Dungy couldn't ever get it done with his own team, so the fact that Gruden came in, drafted without a 1st or 2nd round pick that year, brought in a couple new players through free agency and trades, shows that he has the right kind of mindset to make a team focus and win! We keep talking about the amount of talent on the Texans and the lack of coaching, well the Bucs were in a similar situation with a relatively under-achieving coach and Gruden was able to turn it around! That's what we want here! C'mon people, Gruden is a coach who knows how to gameplan, call appropriate plays, and doesn't make boneheaded coaching decisions every week. He's a smart guy, who is a proven winner with a good record behind him. He's the kind of coach who can turn this defense around and bring in the right sort of defensive linemen that we need to compete in our division!

For the record, I'm all for Gruden, Cowher or Dungy as I think they are all a significant improvement over Kubiak and company.

Khari
11-15-2010, 01:44 PM
he really does look like chucky

Dread-Head
11-15-2010, 01:45 PM
ns.

As far as the "Gruden took Dungy's team to the Super Bowl" talk, just STOP IT NOW. The fact that he took Dungy's team to the Super Bowl is a POSITIVE, not a negative. .


Then let's just get Barry Switzer. He BRILLIANTLY coached a Cowboy team to a Superbowl and a victory over the Steelers!

:sarcasm:

ChampionTexan
11-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Sounds like something we might be saying about Kubiak in a few years. Building a team doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to Texans fans right now, considering our situation.

I don't know - I think there's a little bit of difference between taking a team with 20 years of futility (2 winning seasons), and going to the playoffs 4 out of 6 years, and taking a 4 year old team, and leaving them in somewhat better shape than when you took over (but still only one winning season in 8 years).

While I think it's more than high-time for this team to move on, I like Kubes, I appreciate what he's done here, and we are in better shape than when he got here (whaetver happens in games 10-16 not withstanding). Still, what he will have done after 5 years pales in comparison to what Dungee did in 6 years with the Bucs.


Tangibles:
176-95
1 SB Championship
5 Division Championships

Intangibles:
Good offensive mind
Tough, no-nonsense coach
Young

Hard to argue with results like that.

Hard to argue unless one of the stated items is ridiculously inaccurate. Gruden's career W/L record is 95-81. Don't know where the 176-95 thing came from. Additionally, his record at TB ended up only 2 games over .500 despite the 12-4 record that first year when he won the Super Bowl. He also never won another playoff game in the two times he returned there with the Bucs.

Additionally, as far as the good offensive mind thing goes, yeah maybe, but he was in TB for 7 years, and never had an offense finish any higher than 14th in either yardage or scoring. Several times, his offenses were ranked in the lower 20's in those categories.

As far as young? how is that a positive or a negative? When Kubiak was hired, he was three years younger than Gruden is now. Why is that even an intangible?

The bottom line in my mind is that Dungee took a perennial loser and took them to the verge of a World Championship. Gruden took that team on the verge of a World Championship to the next level, and after that took them backwards two or three levels.

Dread-Head
11-15-2010, 01:50 PM
Gruden - Sure.
Cowher - Great.
Billick - Why not.
Either Schottenheimer - Go for it.

See, I look at it like this:

We're sitting at a table to eat a meal.

What sits on our plate right now is a huge steaming pile of dog crap. Mastiff sized. The dog was even courteous enough to put the DQ swirl on the top of the pile. Inside of the pile, if you look close, you can see chewed up hopes. There is some corn.... and busted achilles tendon.... some positive press clippings.... Oh, hey, there's the prime of AJ's career in there, too!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Pkzn7L6JBydhDM:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/cocek/July2007001.jpg&t=1

Wow - that stinks.

So, when we talk about other coaches, its like we have all these other still-covered mystery dishes on the table, too. All of them are relatively unknown but you have to believe that they couldn't be worse than the mastiff sized steaming turd that is on our plate now.

In summation - Kubiak regime = steaming mastiff turd. Any new coach with solid pedigree = not mastiff turd.

Just gimme some change come January.... and take this plate away, please. I ate my fill last year.

Fair enough. BTW the "A lie if told with a great enough degree of frequency eventually becomes accepted as truth"

:Josef Goebels

BigBull17
11-15-2010, 01:51 PM
Then let's just get Barry Switzer. He BRILLIANTLY coached a Cowboy team to a Superbowl and a victory over the Steelers!

:sarcasm:

It's different in the sense that Dungy couldn't win with his team. Switzers was a team that had already won.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 01:59 PM
Dungy built the team Gruden Won with

At not only does Dungy know how to build teams he knows how to win try like 9 years of 12+ wins

And Gruden won the SB with the team that Dungy couldn't win with :kubepalm:
(also Dungy's defense was consistently a weakness for the Colts, Peyton Manning knows how to win) Jon Gruden won a SB with Brad freaking Johnson


For the life of me, I'll never understand the hate that Jon Gruden has to put up with just because he was able to win a freaking SB in Tampa (I thought that was the main goal as a HC???)....AND HE BEAT THE TEAM THAT HE BUILT IN THE SB.

That guy is a damn good football coach, what happened in TB is that his team got old. The guy put teams in the playoffs just about as frequently as any other top coach in this league and was a winner in two different cities....and he won a SB. Yeah, that guy is horrible..


Seriously, I don't get the criticism with Jon Gruden. What the heck do y'all want the man to do....not win a SB? Truth of the matter is, if he stayed in Oakland he most likely still would be a SB winning coach, because TB would've never gotten over the Eagles' hump.

Dutchrudder
11-15-2010, 01:59 PM
Then let's just get Barry Switzer. He BRILLIANTLY coached a Cowboy team to a Superbowl and a victory over the Steelers!

:sarcasm:

Yeah, because Super Bowls are just soooooooo easy to win... :rolleyes: Switzer may not have done much after that first year, but you have to give him some credit for coaching through the playoffs and winning a Super Bowl. That's not an easy task regardless of the situation.

But really, the big difference between Switzer and Gruden is that Gruden had a record of accomplishments with another NFL team before his Super Bowl win. Switzer was an assistant for a while and never coached in the NFL again after he left the Cowboys. Gruden has shown that he can turn a team around as he did with the Raiders, and that he can coach to win a Super Bowl. What more do you need on a resume?

drewmar74
11-15-2010, 02:04 PM
Fair enough. BTW the "A lie if told with a great enough degree of frequency eventually becomes accepted as truth"

:Josef Goebels

Meh - I can kid around with the iron fist of soviet rule but I just can't quite do it with the nazis.

So said, I tweaked my sig.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 02:09 PM
Then let's just get Barry Switzer. He BRILLIANTLY coached a Cowboy team to a Superbowl and a victory over the Steelers!

:sarcasm:

Was Jimmy Johnson underachieving year after year and then Switzer came in and finally lead them to a SB?

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 02:19 PM
and gruden won the sb with the team that dungy couldn't win with :kubepalm:
(also dungy's defense was consistently a weakness for the colts, peyton manning knows how to win) jon gruden won a sb with brad freaking johnson


for the life of me, i'll never understand the hate that jon gruden has to put up with just because he was able to win a freaking sb in tampa (i thought that was the main goal as a hc???)....and he beat the team that he built in the sb.

That guy is a damn good football coach, what happened in tb is that his team got old and mckay never replenished the old players with youth. the guy put teams in the playoffs just about as frequently as any other top coach in this league and was a winner in two different cities....and he won a sb. Yeah, that guy is horrible..


Seriously, i don't get the criticism with jon gruden. What the heck do y'all want the man to do....not win a sb? Truth of the matter is, if he stayed in oakland he most likely still would be a sb winning coach, because tb would've never gotten over the eagles' hump.

fify

houstonspartan
11-15-2010, 02:36 PM
I'm not a Gruden fan because, overall, I think he's a phony. Ok, so you can scrunch your face up. So?

However, I will take anything over what we have now, to be honest.

El Tejano
11-15-2010, 02:37 PM
UGH. Dungy? No thanks. I couldn't stand to watch him on our sidelines. No way no how. Only HC I hate more than Cowher, and I could get used to Cowher.

Besides, what has Dungy done besides be the beneficiary of the best QB of all time and a top 3 franchise?

cWhile with the Buc, he drafted a player that was considered the best player at the DT despite his "buyer beware" rating due to marijuana possession in Warren Sapp. The sorry Bucs then became the best defense in the league and were able to go to the playoffs alot.

El Tejano
11-15-2010, 02:50 PM
I want a coach that is going to take off his headset and talk to his team or QB when things are going bad in a game instead of waiting til halftime. I seel Billichek, Cowher, Gruden, Dungy, Fisher, Harbaugh, Ryan, Turner all do it but I never see Kubiak do that.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 02:54 PM
cWhile with the Buc, he drafted a player that was considered the best player at the DT despite his "buyer beware" rating due to marijuana possession in Warren Sapp. The sorry Bucs then became the best defense in the league and were able to go to the playoffs alot.

Warren Sapp fell in the draft, if not for the Marijuana possession he would've been one of the 1st players off the board. He was a bargain where they got him at. Great pick though...LMAO, I remember when Amobi was supposed to be Warren Sapp :kubepalm: (We really need a Rick Smith face palm)

Runner
11-15-2010, 03:00 PM
I want a coach that is going to take off his headset and talk to his team or QB when things are going bad in a game instead of waiting til halftime. I seel Billichek, Cowher, Gruden, Dungy, Fisher, Harbaugh, Ryan, Turner all do it but I never see Kubiak do that.

Give Kubes a break. He's trying to figure out down and distance.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 03:05 PM
I want a coach that is going to take off his headset and talk to his team or QB when things are going bad in a game instead of waiting til halftime. I seel Billichek, Cowher, Gruden, Dungy, Fisher, Harbaugh, Ryan, Turner all do it but I never see Kubiak do that.

This is why I like Gruden... He's a head coach and not just a offensive coordinator trying to be a head coach. He has his fingers on the entire team and leads the entire team.

The reason why I don't like Dungy even if he was available, because I don't think he fits here. This team doesn't need another daddy figure (they had that with Kubiak and it didn't work). What they need is a swift kick in the freaking ass. There's teams that are self motivators (Indy) and then there's teams that have to be motivated... I think it's safe to say what type of team we have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNP1EquL9M0&feature=related

Ole Miss Texan
11-15-2010, 03:14 PM
I want a coach that is going to take off his headset and talk to his team or QB when things are going bad in a game instead of waiting til halftime. I seel Billichek, Cowher, Gruden, Dungy, Fisher, Harbaugh, Ryan, Turner all do it but I never see Kubiak do that.
Well two things wrong with this picture: (1) he keeps to headset on and (2) he's yelling at Slaton so that almost doesn't count.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bNaay00Gwath/610x.jpg

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 03:47 PM
OC
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MPjuKmsJrwE/Syaf_BIrmqI/AAAAAAAAAiE/1E_O4mRnwqI/s400/Gruden.jpg

HC
http://blog.cleveland.com/browns_impact/2008/12/large_bill-cowher.jpg

DC
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/12/rob-ryan-122807.jpg

CHAMPIONSHIP! :trophy:

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 03:50 PM
OC
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MPjuKmsJrwE/Syaf_BIrmqI/AAAAAAAAAiE/1E_O4mRnwqI/s400/Gruden.jpg

HC
http://blog.cleveland.com/browns_impact/2008/12/large_bill-cowher.jpg

DC
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/12/rob-ryan-122807.jpg

CHAMPIONSHIP! :trophy:

Do you know how freakin' much saliva would be slinging around practice??

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 03:57 PM
Do you know how freakin' much saliva would be slinging around practice??

Meh, visors would become mandatory during practice for the players. Small price to pay if it leads to a...





CHAMPIONSHIP! :trophy:

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2010, 03:59 PM
OC
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MPjuKmsJrwE/Syaf_BIrmqI/AAAAAAAAAiE/1E_O4mRnwqI/s400/Gruden.jpg

HC
http://blog.cleveland.com/browns_impact/2008/12/large_bill-cowher.jpg

DC
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/12/rob-ryan-122807.jpg

CHAMPIONSHIP! :trophy:

I would not rule out this guy for HC or OC in a Cowher regime (GM or HC)

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-blog/files/2009/09/Mularkey-and-ICE.jpg

gtexan02
11-15-2010, 04:00 PM
No thanks on Gruden. He just feasted on Dungy's defense. Then he sucked it up in Tampa

He was 57-55 in tampa. And that includes his 12-4 year

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 04:04 PM
No thanks on Gruden. He just feasted on Dungy's defense. Then he sucked it up in Tampa

He was 57-55 in tampa. And that includes his 12-4 year

Technically his first year he was 15-4 (the year he inherited Dungy's team and won te SB) from that point on he went 45-53 including his final season when they started the season 9-3 to loose 4 in a row to close the season - missing the playoffs... I agree, no thanks!! Amazing how revisionist history works, no??

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 04:08 PM
Technically his first year he was 15-4 (the year he inherited Dungy's team and won te SB) from that point on he went 45-53 including his final season when they started the season 9-3 to loose 4 in a row to close the season - missing the playoffs... I agree, no thanks!! Amazing how revisionist history works, no??

You're forgetting how many draft picks the Bucs gave up to the Raiders for Gruden. That Tampa team was pretty old, and not having a 2002 & 2003 first round pick and a 2002 & 2004 second round pick made it pretty much impossible to improve the team.

Thorn
11-15-2010, 04:10 PM
You're forgetting how many draft picks the Bucs gave up to the Raiders for Gruden. That Tampa team was pretty old, and not having a 2002 & 2003 first round pick and a 2002 & 2004 second round pick made it pretty much impossible to improve the team.

I still don't understand that. Has there been any other time in NFL history that draft choices were traded for coaches and not players or draft positions?

wagonhed
11-15-2010, 04:11 PM
I still don't understand that. Has there been any other time in NFL history that draft choices were traded for coaches and not players or draft positions?

Kinda reminds me of how odd I thought it was that they took away a Patriots 1st rounder when Belichick cheated.

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 04:15 PM
I still don't understand that. Has there been any other time in NFL history that draft choices were traded for coaches and not players or draft positions?

Don't think so. At the time I was in total shock. First that we would trade Gruden, and second that we would get all those picks + $8million for him.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 04:15 PM
You're forgetting how many draft picks the Bucs gave up to the Raiders for Gruden. That Tampa team was pretty old, and not having a 2002 & 2003 first round pick and a 2002 & 2004 second round pick made it pretty much impossible to improve the team.

That roster for the Bucs included 5 Pro-bowlers (3 of which were All-Pro) on Defense. They included Warren Sapp (who can't stand Gruden), Simeon Rice, Shelton Quarles, Derrick Brooks and John Lynch. Point being, I could with that on my defense. The oldest of those guys was John Lynch playing in his 9th season. If I'm not mistaken, he had another 4 fairly productive years. Again, these were guys that Dungy assembled and I could win with.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 04:19 PM
Don't think so. At the time I was in total shock. First that we would trade Gruden, and second that we would get all those picks + $8million for him.

Yeah, they gave up a first and a second in consecutive years, but there so talented on defense that it should've hurt them to the point that he went 45 and 53 after the SB year over the next 6 seasons.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 04:19 PM
That roster for the Bucs included 5 Pro-bowlers (3 of which were All-Pro) on Defense. They included Warren Sapp (who can't stand Gruden), Simeon Rice, Shelton Quarles, Derrick Brooks and John Lynch. Point being, I could with that on my defense. The oldest of those guys was John Lynch playing in his 9th season. If I'm not mistaken, he had another 4 fairly productive years. Again, these were guys that Dungy assembled and I could win with.

When did Warren Sapp say that he couldn't stand Gruden?

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 04:20 PM
When did Warren Sapp say that he couldn't stand Gruden.

Yesterday and about every chance he gets.

Texan4Ever
11-15-2010, 04:25 PM
Maybe I missed it, but I've not seen Marty Shottenheimer's name come up. Good? Bad? I'm curious :)

I wouldn't mind some Marty Ball for the Texans but it seemed like I was the only supporter he had, good to see someone else mention his name.

As for Brian Billick, he's not much of a control whore and I see too much of Kubiak in him, not enough fire.


This is why I like Gruden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNP1EquL9M0

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 04:27 PM
That roster for the Bucs included 5 Pro-bowlers (3 of which were All-Pro) on Defense. They included Warren Sapp (who can't stand Gruden), Simeon Rice, Shelton Quarles, Derrick Brooks and John Lynch. Point being, I could with that on my defense. The oldest of those guys was John Lynch playing in his 9th season. If I'm not mistaken, he had another 4 fairly productive years. Again, these were guys that Dungy assembled and I could win with.

If you could have won with them but Dungy couldn't, why didn't you get into coaching bro! :D


Yesterday and about every chance he gets.
The guy also trys to dog the Raiders every chance he gets. I hate Sapp with a passion, if he doesn't get things his way he'll ***** & complain and will never let it go.

Wolf
11-15-2010, 04:52 PM
Smartest things that Gruden did was leave the Bucs defense alone and tweek that offense (well they did have Dunn and Alstot so that was nice to come into)

Smartest thing Dungy did, was handle the defense and keep Manning as the Offensive Coordinator

I can't put my finger on it, but I am not too sold on Gruden.. I don't know why.

Cowher..I would dig that... And as much as I hate the Steelers. I like that type of football.. a kick ass defense and a strong running game. Make teams not want to play the Texans and esp not want to come to reliant.

like Carr Bombed said. these "kids" need a kick in the ass to bring it up a notch on game day and a coach that knows what it takes to be a champion. I am not saying they aren't playing hard. They need to learn to play hard and smart.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 05:11 PM
Yesterday and about every chance he gets.

That's strange, because in the America's game series he always talked about how Gruden was "his guy" and usually said that in other interviews. What comments did he make?

I know the defense started to turn on Gruden towards the end when he started turning a cold shoulder to key vets who could no longer play...Simeon Rice. Towards the end alot of those players like Lynch and Sapp were getting older, so the team was moving on without them. I think I remember that causing a "schism" towards the end.

One thing Sapp always appreciated about Gruden was the way he handled Keyshawn Johnson though. Sapp hates Keyshawn.

Kulluminatii
11-15-2010, 05:13 PM
Too lazy to get the link, but I remember reading a few days ago Dallas was in contact with both Cowher & Gruden. If Cowher is picked up by them, would those of you who are opposed to Gruden still not want him? If so, who else would you guys want? Only notable ex-HC I can think of is Billick.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 05:22 PM
That's strange, because in the America's game series he always talked about how Gruden was "his guy" and usually said that in other interviews. What comments did he make?

I know the defense started to turn on Gruden towards the end when he started turning a cold shoulder to key vets who could no longer play...Simeon Rice. Towards the end alot of those players like Lynch and Sapp were getting older, so the team was moving on without them. I think I remember that causing a "schism" towards the end.

One thing Sapp always appreciated about Gruden was the way he handled Keyshawn Johnson though. Sapp hates Keyshawn.

I never said Sapp wasn't a squirlly sumbitch, but yesterday while they were talking about Vikings players and Chilly he made some pointed comments about not "playing for Gruden". I've heard him make other snide remarks about Gruden and how old his act got. I've even seen comments that directly tie into with Dungy being the guy that put that team together.

Heck, I remember some Raiders tired of "Chucky's" act.

houstonspartan
11-15-2010, 05:29 PM
I never said Sapp wasn't a squirlly sumbitch, but yesterday while they were talking about Vikings players and Chilly he made some pointed comments about not "playing for Gruden". I've heard him make other snide remarks about Gruden and how old his act got. I've even seen comments that directly tie into with Dungy being the guy that put that team together.

Heck, I remember some Raiders tired of "Chucky's" act.

Google "John Gruden fired."

You will find a ton of information about why he was fired, and what happened after he was fired. Basically, his players hated him. Then, after he was fired, ex-players started opening up about how he was a total jerk and bad coach and no one could trust him. Some of the reports are really eye opening.

I"m not saying Gruden hasn't learned his lessons or hasn't changed. I'm just saying he comes off as a total phony to me. Pass.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 05:43 PM
Google "John Gruden fired."

You will find a ton of information about why he was fired, and what happened after he was fired. Basically, his players hated him. Then, after he was fired, ex-players started opening up about how he was a total jerk and bad coach and no one could trust him. Some of the reports are really eye opening.

I"m not saying Gruden hasn't learned his lessons or hasn't changed. I'm just saying he comes off as a total phony to me. Pass.

Basically what I've been saying all along. It wasn't just Michael Clayton, hell Jeff Garcia said it was time for a change. The phony part was what some Raiders players criticized him for also. Clayton's (and somewhat Garcia's claim) was that he would tell them or a player one thing and do something else.

His act wore thin.

Carr Bombed
11-15-2010, 05:47 PM
Google "John Gruden fired."

You will find a ton of information about why he was fired, and what happened after he was fired. Basically, his players hated him. Then, after he was fired, ex-players started opening up about how he was a total jerk and bad coach and no one could trust him. Some of the reports are really eye opening.

I"m not saying Gruden hasn't learned his lessons or hasn't changed. I'm just saying he comes off as a total phony to me. Pass.

That's not what they said on camera...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/123707/americas-game-2002-tampa-bay-buccaneers

They even acknowledged that they needed him to win a SB and he was the perfect coach at the time...

Like I said earlier, some players turned on him, because they thought he mistreated Rice, but Rice was done as a football player. I think some crap got started between him and Garcia as well, but Garcia is known around the league as a diva, it's why he's not on a NFL roster today.

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 06:21 PM
That's not what they said on camera...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/123707/americas-game-2002-tampa-bay-buccaneers

They even acknowledged that they needed him to win a SB and he was the perfect coach at the time...

Like I said earlier, some players turned on him, because they thought he mistreated Rice, but Rice was done as a football player. I think some crap got started between him and Garcia as well, but Garcia is known around the league as a diva, it's why he's not on a NFL roster today.

At least watch the first segment of this and listen to Sapp talk about the defense vs. the offense. I hearing a familiar tune here.

kiwitexansfan
11-15-2010, 06:23 PM
Gruden's style gets old after a time, he is a use and discard kind of coach. However for a team needing that extra to get them over the top, he is the right move.

Runner
11-15-2010, 06:36 PM
When did Warren Sapp say that he couldn't stand Gruden?

I'd consider Sapp not liking Gruden a point in Gruden's favor.

Texecutioner
11-15-2010, 06:37 PM
I'm not a Gruden fan and I don't want him, but right about now I'd be stoked to have him if that meant that Kubiak was sent packing.

silvrhand
11-15-2010, 06:41 PM
I'm not that big on Gruden cause he's got a checkered past, give me a long term winner that just wins year in year out and keeps your team competitive..


BILL COWHER!
:smiliedance:

kiwitexansfan
11-15-2010, 06:55 PM
I'm not that big on Gruden cause he's got a checkered past, give me a long term winner that just wins year in year out and keeps your team competitive..


BILL COWHER!
:smiliedance:

Will Cowher be able to bring his Steelers staff with him?

If not, he loses A LOT of his appeal.

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 07:29 PM
Go to Hulu and watch America's Game for the 2002 Bucs and 2005 Steelers, then come back and tell me who you want.

Gimme Chucky! Mr. McNair make it happen. Go Marlon Brando on him and make an offer he can't refuse.

BTW...Those that said Sapp doesn't like Gruden needs to watch this special. You definitely don't get that impression in that special. Sapp talks like he loved Gruden. Now the one person Sapp did not like was Keshawwwn the Diva.

Kaiser Toro
11-15-2010, 07:32 PM
As fate would have it, Whisenhunt and Grimm may be looking for a job. Maybe LeBeau could be coaxed into leaving Pittsburgh to join the gang.

Come to think of it, Billick and Lewis has a nice ring to it as a package as well.

TheMatrix31
11-15-2010, 07:53 PM
As fate would have it, Whisenhunt and Grimm may be looking for a job. Maybe LeBeau could be coaxed into leaving Pittsburgh to join the gang.

Come to think of it, Billick and Lewis has a nice ring to it as a package as well.

I want Whisenhunt and Grimm. Hell, get Cowher and maybe Whisenhunt and Grimm would come anyway!

....Gruden just totally called the double-reverse that the Eagles just ran, right before it happened.

kiwitexansfan
11-15-2010, 08:20 PM
BTW...Those that said Sapp doesn't like Gruden needs to watch this special. You definitely don't get that impression in that special. Sapp talks like he loved Gruden. Now the one person Sapp did not like was Keshawwwn the Diva.

Now don't go doggin' on my boy Keyshawn. They should of just been given him the Damn Ball.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 08:23 PM
At least watch the first segment of this and listen to Sapp talk about the defense vs. the offense. I hearing a familiar tune here.

Not sure what was said there, but was it what Sapp said about Dungy being the baker and putting everything in the oven, while Gruden merely put the icing on??

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 08:30 PM
Not sure what was said there, but was it what Sapp said about Dungy being the baker and putting everything in the oven, while Gruden merely put the icing on??

Actually, Sapp did not have much love for Dungy. Basically, he said Dungy only concentrated on the defense and pretty much ignored the offense and it caused a riff in the locker room.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 08:36 PM
Actually, Sapp did not have much love for Dungy. Basically, he said Dungy only concentrated on the defense and pretty much ignored the offense and it caused a riff in the locker room.

You have that wrong. He had much love for Dungy. While it was true, that the offense was somewhat ignored, it was Monte Kiffen he didn't like too much.

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 08:38 PM
You have that wrong. He had much love for Dungy. It was Monte Kiffen he didn't like too much.

Oh. So I didn't see and hear what I saw heard? :facepalm: I'll go watch it again.

Texan_Bill
11-15-2010, 08:42 PM
Oh. So I didn't see and hear what I saw heard? :facepalm: I'll go watch it again.

Oh boy... Do I need to grab quotes too?? :rolleyes: Whatever, dude.


**** all that. At the end of the day Gruden hasn't really accomplished much (unless you liken him to Barry Switzer) and at the end of the day he loses his teams. There are a couple of better suggestions out there (i.e. Rob Ryan, etc.)... Gruden is a face and a character. A flash in the pan, if you will. See comments by Raiders players too... But you jump on that bandwagon if you must! :rolleyes:

The funny thing is, I enjoy Gruden as an analyst.

Pantherstang84
11-15-2010, 09:01 PM
Oh boy... Do I need to grab quotes too?? :rolleyes: Whatever, dude.


**** all that. At the end of the day Gruden hasn't really accomplished much (unless you liken him to Barry Switzer) and at the end of the day he loses his teams. There are a couple of better suggestions out there (i.e. Rob Ryan, etc.)... Gruden is a face and a character. A flash in the pan, if you will. See comments by Raiders players too... But you jump on that bandwagon if you must! :rolleyes:

The funny thing is, I enjoy Gruden as an analyst.

I don't care if he is a flash in the pan if he gets this group of losers over the hump. Screw the 5 year plan crap. This young team needs a yeller right now. We have tried the "Aw Shucks" guy already.

I just watched it again and @ 6:32 "He just let the offense lax too much. He really did." (Warren Sapp talking about Dungy.)

Immediately afterwards. John Lynch "It always felt like the offense were not being held to the same standards we were being held too and there started to be some tension." Again talking about Dungy.

Notice those are quotation marks. Verbatim. Word for word.

And I'm not on the Gruden bandwagon, I'm driving the bus. Love the guy's intensity.

Dutchrudder
11-16-2010, 11:39 AM
Oh boy... Do I need to grab quotes too?? :rolleyes: Whatever, dude.


**** all that. At the end of the day Gruden hasn't really accomplished much (unless you liken him to Barry Switzer) and at the end of the day he loses his teams. There are a couple of better suggestions out there (i.e. Rob Ryan, etc.)... Gruden is a face and a character. A flash in the pan, if you will. See comments by Raiders players too... But you jump on that bandwagon if you must! :rolleyes:

The funny thing is, I enjoy Gruden as an analyst.

A flash in the pan? Taking a 4 win team and making them into the second best team in the AFC 3 years later is pretty remarkable. Another playoff appearance followed ('tuck' rule game), and the next year Bill Callahan took "Gruden's" team to the Super Bowl. He did what Dungy couldn't do for 4 years with most of the same pieces, he won a Super Bowl. That to me is a great resume.

I really couldn't care less what the Bucs or Raiders players said about him after he left. We really don't know what motivates them to speak out about him anyways. They liked him enough to play hard for him and win when he was there, which is good enough for me. We need a guy like that who gets on the players asses when they fail.

Oh, and Gruden is light years ahead of Barry Switzer. That comparison makes you sound ridiculous.

Big Lou
11-16-2010, 09:15 PM
I'd rather have Jack Pardee coach this team then John Gruden.

Pantherstang84
11-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Exhibit #2 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810aec9a/Top-Ten-Motivational-Coaches-Jon-Gruden)

Texan_Bill
11-16-2010, 09:59 PM
I'd rather have Jack Pardee coach this team then John Gruden.

YUP!!! I won't even bother responding to those other asinine posts....


Hell, give me Hugh Campbell or Eddie Biles!!!

JB
11-16-2010, 10:02 PM
YUP!!! I won't even bother responding to those other asinine posts....


Hell, give me Hugh Campbell or Eddie Biles!!!



:headhurts:


As long as it's not Chuck Studley, Bill Peterson, or Ed Hughes

Texan_Bill
11-16-2010, 10:05 PM
Exhibit #2 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810aec9a/Top-Ten-Motivational-Coaches-Jon-Gruden)

I'm actually sorry that I cued that up.. It played into what many ex-players said about "chucky's act"....


Move on.... He does a good job for BSPN and his interviews and whatnot, other than that, MEH, whatever....

Hagar
11-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Exhibit #2 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810aec9a/Top-Ten-Motivational-Coaches-Jon-Gruden)

I don't know if Chucky wants to coach yet, or even again for that matter, but after watching that video, he's exactly the type of coach we need here.

Pantherstang84
11-16-2010, 10:10 PM
I'm actually sorry that I cued that up.. It played into what many ex-players said about "chucky's act"....


Move on.... He does a good job for BSPN and his interviews and whatnot, other than that, MEH, whatever....

Well you clicked it. Precisely what this team needs. A butt chewing, fire breathing butt hole to turn Gary's "kids" into football players.

Kulluminatii
11-16-2010, 10:10 PM
Exhibit #2 (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810aec9a/Top-Ten-Motivational-Coaches-Jon-Gruden)

Ugh, wish I didn't see that. Reliving the "Tuck Rule Game" and that Superbowl all in one video blows :brickwall:.

It would be nice to see Gruden coaching again, the guy definitely isn't your typical HC :D.

drewmar74
11-16-2010, 10:13 PM
I'm actually sorry that I cued that up.. It played into what many ex-players said about "chucky's act"....


Move on.... He does a good job for BSPN and his interviews and whatnot, other than that, MEH, whatever....

Gun to your head T_B - who do you pick? Kubiak or Gruden?

Rey
11-16-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm actually sorry that I cued that up.. It played into what many ex-players said about "chucky's act"....


Move on.... He does a good job for BSPN and his interviews and whatnot, other than that, MEH, whatever....

I hear what you're saying about Gruden, but I do think it's possible that he could improve as a coach...especially after being away from the day to day grind for so long now...

I remember a lot of players had complaints about Coughlin's coaching style and he said that he listened to them and decided to make some changes in his approach.

I don't know if Gruden is capable of that or not, but he has built winning franchises. I'd take that at this point.

Pantherstang84
11-16-2010, 10:17 PM
I don't know if Chucky wants to coach yet, or even again for that matter, but after watching that video, he's exactly the type of coach we need here.

I'm telling ya. He is the aspirin for our headache. The current state of this team is tailor made for a coach like him.

wagonhed
11-16-2010, 10:17 PM
I hear what you're saying about Gruden, but I do think it's possible that he could improve as a coach...especially after being away from the day to day grind for so long now...

I remember a lot of players had complaints about Coughlin's coaching style and he said that he listened to them and decided to make some changes in his approach.

I don't know if Gruden is capable of that or not, but he has built winning franchises. I'd take that at this point.
Possible that he could improve as a coach? Were his record and playoff appearances not good enough for you? In what way does he need improvement to be considered an acceptable candidate?

drewmar74
11-16-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't know if Gruden is capable of that or not, but he has built winning franchises. I'd take that at this point.

I can almost hear Bum now.

"Gruden can take his and beat Kubiak's, and then he can take Kubiak's and beat his."

Rey
11-16-2010, 10:22 PM
Possible that he could improve as a coach? Were his record and playoff appearances not good enough for you? In what way does he need improvement to be considered an acceptable candidate?
:kitten:

Kulluminatii
11-16-2010, 10:25 PM
In what way does he need improvement to be considered an acceptable candidate?

He needs chin implants, duh! :shades:

Thorn
11-17-2010, 07:52 AM
YUP!!! I won't even bother responding to those other asinine posts....

Hell, give me Hugh Campbell or Eddie Biles!!!

:headhurts:

As long as it's not Chuck Studley, Bill Peterson, or Ed Hughes


you two are HORRIBLE for bringing up those names. HORRIBLE I say.

:lol:

JB
11-17-2010, 08:24 AM
you two are HORRIBLE for bringing up those names. HORRIBLE I say.

:lol:

:tiphat:


Just a friendly reminder that things could get much worse...

False Start
11-19-2010, 04:22 PM
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2621/gruden2011.jpg

Pantherstang84
11-19-2010, 05:08 PM
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2621/gruden2011.jpg

Mind if I gip it?

False Start
11-19-2010, 05:24 PM
Mind if I gip it?

Not at all, its for anyone that wants to use it. :cool:

wagonhed
11-19-2010, 05:26 PM
thanks!

Pantherstang84
11-19-2010, 06:20 PM
Not at all, its for anyone that wants to use it. :cool:

Cool. Thanks. Rep commin.

thunderkyss
11-19-2010, 07:20 PM
First off, I'd be OK with Chucky taking a team that Kubiak built to the SB. Second, you're forgetting the Raiders in your blase dismissal of Gruden. Who's to say that Dungy could have coached the team he built to a win over the team Gruden built?

I know it goes against all logic to give Al Davis any credit, but at the very least, it was a combination of Davis/Chucky that built that team (mainly through FA) in Oakland.

Something he & McKaY(?) couldn't do.

thunderkyss
11-19-2010, 07:28 PM
D.) Not once have I seen a Gruden coached team come off unprepared or not expecting to play.


C'mon..... the only reason people say this about Kubiak teams is because there is so much emotion involved.

Had you been a Bucs fan, I'm sure you would have said they were unprepared several times.

thunderkyss
11-19-2010, 08:03 PM
Gruden had success in two franchises, one of which is one of the worst run franchises, another is mediocre. There is no way anyone can say Gruden benefited from being a part of good franchises. Gruden has shown he can win with a built team. Cowher may be able to do the same, but he hasn't shown it so we don't know.

I thought Cowher was pretty successful right off the bat, with the built team he inherited. He actually kept that success going a lot better than Gruden had.

I also don't recall the Raiders being the joke they are now, back when Gruden was their coach.

Second Honeymoon
11-19-2010, 08:17 PM
I thought Cowher was pretty successful right off the bat, with the built team he inherited. He actually kept that success going a lot better than Gruden had.

I also don't recall the Raiders being the joke they are now, back when Gruden was their coach.

Once Cowher got a decent QB they won
Gruden won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson
That is enough for me. They have track records of success even with holes in roster

We need a motivator and that is what top coaches do. Gruden needs to go to Dallas though. The texans and cowboys have both been under motivated for years. Both need fixing.

thunderkyss
11-20-2010, 07:02 AM
I want a coach that is going to take off his headset and talk to his team or QB when things are going bad in a game instead of waiting til halftime. I seel Billichek, Cowher, Gruden, Dungy, Fisher, Harbaugh, Ryan, Turner all do it but I never see Kubiak do that.

Have we already resorted to making shit up?
http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/pg2_ap_schaub_kubiak_600.jpg
I thought we needed 1 yard.
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Gary+Kubiak+nayS6k5EFlum.jpg
Where's your 'sac man??
http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/Loss%20Kubiak%20and%20Schaub.jpg
That's on me.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06E45kx8T8fq1/340x.jpg
This ones over..... we're thinking Churros, what do you think?
Never mind, I see the problem. He never takes that damned headset off.

Pantherstang84
11-21-2010, 05:46 PM
It's not too late to join.

NitroGSXR
11-21-2010, 06:07 PM
Gruden looks like a blonde Jerry Glanville.

Pantherstang84
11-21-2010, 06:08 PM
Gruden looks like a blonde Jerry Glanville.

with a ring and before you come back with the Dungy's team crap. Yeah Dungy assembled that team. But Dungy couldn't get them over the hump. Gruden did.

steelbtexan
11-21-2010, 06:15 PM
The most seamless transition guy would be Dungy but I don't think he will do it. I don't like Gruden at all.

Why dont you care for Gruden?

The thought of Dungy coaching the Texans makes me ill.

Pantherstang84
11-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Why dont you care for Gruden?

The thought of Dungy coaching the Texans makes me ill.

Especially after watching the America's Game show on the 2002 Bucs. Dungy, "You doing all right? Anything we can do to make camp more comfortable for you?" Seriously? In training camp? Gag me.

Kulluminatii
11-23-2010, 12:22 AM
A recent interview Gruden gave: http://www.doublex1090.com/pages/xx1090tv#vmix_media_id=31203531

Mostly talking about the AFCW, but at about 4:30 onwards the interviewer asks him about if he wants to get back into coaching. He didn't give a definitive yes or no, but just listening to him you can tell he's dying to get back out there.

TimeKiller
11-23-2010, 12:28 PM
with a ring and before you come back with the Dungy's team crap. Yeah Dungy assembled that team. But Dungy couldn't get them over the hump. Gruden did.

Dungy - 139-69-0 for a .668 winning percentage, 7th best all-time

Gruden - 100-85-0 for definitely not even as close of a record as Dungy has.

Hump that.

And yes, Gruden won with DUNGY'S team. He THANKED Dungy after he won it.

Oh and after he won with Dungy's team he went 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7 for a grand total of 2 GAMES OVER .500 (in case you can't figure out what that means, it means most of his winning was done over a decade ago). The same team, with Dungy building it up, went (from '96 on) 6-10, 10-6, 8-8, 11-5, 10-6, 9-7 and then he was dismissed.

Dungy > Gruden any way you wanna smoke it.

LOLZ at you idiots crumbling at the thought of a HOF coach LOWERING himself to come coach this unholy pile of garbage. I'd be so ecstatic I might have a heart attack and die.

Since we're on it, Dungy > Kubiak too. There's proof. Lots of it.

GuerillaBlack
11-23-2010, 01:19 PM
Dungy - 139-69-0 for a .668 winning percentage, 7th best all-time

Gruden - 100-85-0 for definitely not even as close of a record as Dungy has.

Hump that.

And yes, Gruden won with DUNGY'S team. He THANKED Dungy after he won it.

Oh and after he won with Dungy's team he went 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7 for a grand total of 2 GAMES OVER .500 (in case you can't figure out what that means, it means most of his winning was done over a decade ago). The same team, with Dungy building it up, went (from '96 on) 6-10, 10-6, 8-8, 11-5, 10-6, 9-7 and then he was dismissed.

Dungy > Gruden any way you wanna smoke it.

LOLZ at you idiots crumbling at the thought of a HOF coach LOWERING himself to come coach this unholy pile of garbage. I'd be so ecstatic I might have a heart attack and die.

Since we're on it, Dungy > Kubiak too. There's proof. Lots of it.

LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Gruden faced his own damn team that he had built in the Super Bowl. LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Dungy couldn't get his team over the hump, but Gruden could. LOLZ to those that don't realize that Gruden won with Brad Johnson at QB (imagine what he could do with the Texans' offense). LOLZ at those that thing Dungy is some great defensive minded genius, when his Colts' team had average at best defenses and won on the arm of Manning.

ChampionTexan
11-23-2010, 02:11 PM
LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Gruden faced his own damn team that he had built in the Super Bowl. Well, since Dungee's successor in Tampa took his team to a 4-12 record the year he took the Colts to the Super Bowl, Tony was admittedly never able to accomplish this feat. LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Dungy couldn't get his team over the hump, but Gruden could. Two coaches - two teams each, one Super Bowl each - I would call Super Bowl humpage a draw! LOLZ to those that don't realize that Gruden won with Brad Johnson at QB (imagine what he could do with the Texans' offense). Gruden is supposed to be some offensive minded genius but his Bucs teams never finished better than 14th in the league in offensive yardage or scoring and won on the back of Sapp, Brooks, Lynch, Kiffn etc. LOLZ at those that thing Dungy is some great defensive minded genius, when his Colts' team had average at best defenses and won on the arm of Manning. Wait, what?

...

TimeKiller
11-23-2010, 05:00 PM
LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Gruden faced his own damn team that he had built in the Super Bowl.
So that's....a positive for Gruden?

LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Dungy couldn't get his team over the hump, but Gruden could.
I guess I just don't know what it's like to actually be expecting a championship every year. I assume it's something like expecting a playoff game and not getting it.....So they fired a great coach (54-42 w/l) for not winning a championship but we can't fire an average one for not making the playoffs.

Gruden couldn't win one with the team he built either. LOLZ.

LOLZ at those that thing Dungy is some great defensive minded genius, when his Colts' team had average at best defenses and won on the arm of Manning.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/

read the statistics for yourself. Maybe they were inconsistent but the Colts defense posted themselves in elite company several times. Or you know...shit talk Tony Dungy for being a HOF coach and prop up a MNF announcer.

Second Honeymoon
11-23-2010, 05:23 PM
Both guys are quality coaches.
Different personalities. Both have ring (singular).
I personally give preference to Gruden. At end of the day, one guy had Manning and another had Brad Johnson. Gruden won with a team that Dungy failed to win with.

That is scoreboard to me.

And don't forget that Dungy played the Texans 2 times a year.

SteveSlaton20
11-23-2010, 11:15 PM
dungy made the team that won the super bowl, gruden was just the coach.

Second Honeymoon
11-23-2010, 11:22 PM
dungy made the team that won the super bowl, gruden was just the coach.

And he got fired for not winning
Gruden came in and won in year one while the team he built in the afc met him in the super bowl

Texan_Bill
11-23-2010, 11:25 PM
LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Gruden faced his own damn team that he had built in the Super Bowl. LOLZ at the idiots who don't realize that Dungy couldn't get his team over the hump, but Gruden could. LOLZ to those that don't realize that Gruden won with Brad Johnson at QB (imagine what he could do with the Texans' offense). LOLZ at those that thing Dungy is some great defensive minded genius, when his Colts' team had average at best defenses and won on the arm of Manning.

LOlz!!!

Texan_Bill
11-23-2010, 11:31 PM
YUP!!! I won't even bother responding to those other asinine posts....


Hell, give me Hugh Campbell or Eddie Biles!!!

:headhurts:


As long as it's not Chuck Studley, Bill Peterson, or Ed Hughes


Awesome guys!!!


BTW.... Eff you people that tried to beat me up, a couple of pages ago. :D

TimeKiller
11-24-2010, 07:41 AM
Both guys are quality coaches.
Different personalities. Both have ring (singular).
I personally give preference to Gruden. At end of the day, one guy had Manning and another had Brad Johnson. Gruden won with a team that Dungy failed to win with.

That is scoreboard to me.

And don't forget that Dungy played the Texans 2 times a year.

Because the Falcons and Panthers are such juggernauts right?

2 teams that Dungy built won. How many teams did Gruden build that won?

Gruden also destroyed the team that Dungy built and embarrased himself doing so.

Dungy not winning in TB is not really a valid point since Gruden didn't win in Raiderland. That's a push.

Also, when Dungy won the SB, it was because of his D, not because of Manning.

Second Honeymoon
11-24-2010, 09:26 AM
Because the Falcons and Panthers are such juggernauts right?

2 teams that Dungy built won. How many teams did Gruden build that won?

Gruden also destroyed the team that Dungy built and embarrased himself doing so.

Dungy not winning in TB is not really a valid point since Gruden didn't win in Raiderland. That's a push.

Also, when Dungy won the SB, it was because of his D, not because of Manning.

destroyed the team in Tampa? by destroy, do you mean win with the team in Tampa?

Dungy didn't win squat in Tampa and Gruden did. Notice how the Raiders imploded once Gruden left. Notice how the Colts didn't implode once he retired. Wonder why? It's called Peyton Manning. Geez, even a rookie HC can win and be competitive with Peyton as QB (see Caldwell).

Gruden didn't win in Raiderland? Ever heard of the tuck rule? That team was one bad tuck rule make believe penalty away from being in the Super Bowl and probably winning it to boot.

Don't get me wrong, I like both guys. Facts are facts though. Dungy couldn't get it done until he had a Peyton Manning and even then he only won one after choking many times. Gruden won with a team that Dungy FAILED to win with. Who cares who built it. He couldn't win with it and Gruden did...instantly.

As for comparing the Texans to the Falcons. Are you f-ing serious? Yeah, I will give you that the Saints sucked, but nowhere near as much suckitude as the Carr-led Texans. The Falcons had Vick and got the NFC Championship Game. How dare you compare Atlanta to Houston. Oh and the Panthers were Super Bowl material as well. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Gruden > Dungy on the strength of winning a SB with a team that Dungy failed to do so with.

then when you couple in who each guy had at QB and what happened to the teams they left, its a no-brainer. Bucs won once Dungy left. Raiders imploded just 2 years after Gruden left. You are wrong, sorry.

steelbtexan
11-24-2010, 10:20 AM
The fact that Caldwell made it to the SB in his rookie yr as a head coach reflects poorly on Dungy. IMHO I will admit I'm a Dungy hater.

That's Manninngs team. End of story

Gruden>>>>> Dungy

Second Honeymoon
11-24-2010, 11:14 AM
The fact that Caldwell made it to the SB in his rookie yr as a head coach reflects poorly on Dungy. IMHO I will admit I'm a Dungy hater.

That's Manninngs team. End of story

Gruden>>>>> Dungy

of course its manning's team. any yayhoo could tell you that.

dungy is a good coach but he is the exact opposite of what we need here in Houston.

take that carebear attitude and that holier than thou morality and ply that trade somewhere else.

wagonhed
11-24-2010, 11:45 AM
Some serious revisionist history in hurr. Thanks Second Honeymoon for setting some of it straight.


Seriously, if Dungy gets 50 points for his overall coaching record, his team building, and his SB, then Gruden gets 100 points for his strength of schedule alone.

VTexan
11-24-2010, 12:38 PM
The NFL has a coaching fraternity in which whenever one gets fired or steps down (that was slightly successful at one point in that career) people automatically believe they are still really good and forget they did actually get fired. This effect is dramatically increased if that coach ends up being a TV broadcaster.


I just hope to never see the day where Gruden becomes the head coach of my Texans.

steelbtexan
11-24-2010, 01:28 PM
The NFL has a coaching fraternity in which whenever one gets fired or steps down (that was slightly successful at one point in that career) people automatically believe they are still really good and forget they did actually get fired. This effect is dramatically increased if that coach ends up being a TV broadcaster.


I just hope to never see the day where Gruden becomes the head coach of my Texans.

Why? Is going to the playoof and making it to the SB not good enough for you. If that's the case you must be going crazy with the Smithiak regime.

The reason Grudens teams fell on hard times is that Tampa Bays owners got in financial trouble with their buying of Manchester United.

TimeKiller
11-24-2010, 01:31 PM
You have your points good sir Honeymoon but there's no such thing as a wrong opinion.

I just want to throw in that if you're going to say Dungy and the Colts choked (facing the Pats dynasty mind you) then what do you say of Gruden during the same time period?

I guess I'm just apalled that so many here have balked at the idea of Dungy coaching here. By what measure would he not be a significant upgrade? Idk...I suppose the same could be said for Gruden.

wagonhed
11-24-2010, 01:44 PM
You have your points good sir Honeymoon but there's no such thing as a wrong opinion.

I just want to throw in that if you're going to say Dungy and the Colts choked (facing the Pats dynasty mind you) then what do you say of Gruden during the same time period?

I guess I'm just apalled that so many here have balked at the idea of Dungy coaching here. By what measure would he not be a significant upgrade? Idk...I suppose the same could be said for Gruden.
Dungy might be a significant upgrade, probably would be a significant upgrade. But Dungy had too many things thrown his way for me to trust his pure coaching ability. He did well in Tampa and I trust his ability to build a team, but it's really hard for me to give him credit for anything Indy did, considering the personnel around him. Peyton, Polian, etc. And then the fact that Caldwell seems to have not missed a beat. Is Caldwell also a HOF caliber coach?

Gruden's successes came in spite of shitty situations. Cmon... he basically got the freaking Raiders to the SB. And then the team he built got to the SB the next year, of course he wasn't fired like Dungy, he was bought at an enormous price. And if he had been there for the next year he in all likelihood would have won that SB with the Raiders.

The decline of the Bucs can hardly all be put on his shoulders. They were missing 1st and 2nd round pics. All the star players they had from the 90s got old and there were no pics to replace them. The financial situation mentioned above seems to have helped (I didn't know about it until now).

But all of this has already been mentioned in this thread.

Fact is Gruden and Dungy both did great things with their teams. Gruden did it in the face of adversity and Dungy did it in the most favorable of circumstances. That's enough for me to decide.

TimeKiller
11-24-2010, 01:53 PM
Dungy might be a significant upgrade, probably would be a significant upgrade. But Dungy had too many things thrown his way for me to trust his pure coaching ability. He did well in Tampa and I trust his ability to build a team, but it's really hard for me to give him credit for anything Indy did, considering the personnel around him. Peyton, Polian, etc. And then the fact that Caldwell seems to have not missed a beat. Is Caldwell also a HOF caliber coach?
To think that Dungy had nothing to do with Peyton's success, IMO, is a flawed argument.

As for Caldwell, he's off to a terrific start for such a label, isn't he?

The decline of the Bucs can hardly all be put on his shoulders. They were missing 1st and 2nd round pics. All the star players they had from the 90s got old and there were no pics to replace them. The financial situation mentioned above seems to have helped (I didn't know about it until now).

But all of this has already been mentioned in this thread.

Why were they missing picks?

There weren't a whole lot of people to point to when he became the mythical QB eater. That was a joke.

Fact is Gruden and Dungy both did great things with their teams. Gruden did it in the face of adversity and Dungy did it in the most favorable of circumstances. That's enough for me to decide.
Great point. Great post. Rep your way as well.

wagonhed
11-24-2010, 02:01 PM
I really have no idea if Dungy had anything to do with Peyton's development. I wouldn't put anything past Peyton himself... somehow I think he would be who he is regardless of who was coaching him, but there is no way to know.

As to the missing picks, the Bucs gave the Raiders 2 1st round picks and 2 2nd round picks (and $8 million) for the rights to Gruden.

look at what wikipedia says about the 2 years after the SB:

In the two years following Gruden's Super Bowl win, the Bucs went 7–9 and 5–11 respectively, implying to many Dungy supporters that Gruden had simply taken over a strong team and then driven it into the ground. However, the high draft picks sacrificed by the team to acquire Gruden, along with salary-cap issues and failed draft choices forced upon him by the now-departed Rich McKay (with whom Gruden had an bitter relationship) limited Gruden's ability to field the teams he wanted after that successful Super Bowl-winning season. With no emerging talent in the fold and no money to afford replacements, the team was decimated by injuries to many of the Super Bowl stars, including Joe Jurevicius, Mike Alstott, Greg Spires, Shelton Quarles, Ken Dilger and Brian Kelly, as well as acrimony with highly-paid veterans such as Sapp, Keyshawn Johnson and Keenan McCardell.

When former Raiders general manager Bruce Allen joined the Bucs in 2004, Gruden finally had the general manager–head coach partnership he desired, and their 2004 and 2005 drafts yielded a few impact players, including 2005 Offensive NFL Rookie of the Year Award winner Carnell "Cadillac" Williams.

VTexan
11-24-2010, 04:58 PM
Why? Is going to the playoof and making it to the SB not good enough for you. If that's the case you must be going crazy with the Smithiak regime.

The reason Grudens teams fell on hard times is that Tampa Bays owners got in financial trouble with their buying of Manchester United.

I'm not going to deny that I personally dislike Gruden. But I feel that he is a terrible fit for the Texans. Remember the last time we tried hiring a young, offensive mind?

wagonhed
11-24-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm not going to deny that I personally dislike Gruden. But I feel that he is a terrible fit for the Texans. Remember the last time we tried hiring a young, offensive mind?
Please tell me you aren't comparing Jon Gruden to Gary Kubiak.

Dutchrudder
11-24-2010, 07:16 PM
Please tell me you aren't comparing Jon Gruden to Gary Kubiak.

Maybe he means Kyle Shanahan? The offense was fine for the most part with him around. The defense has always been below average at best for 9 years running.

steelbtexan
11-25-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm not going to deny that I personally dislike Gruden. But I feel that he is a terrible fit for the Texans. Remember the last time we tried hiring a young, offensive mind?

Wagonhed asks a good question. Are you comparing Gruden to Kubes?

If so, LOL.

Why do you hate Gruden? Some people dont care for hard driven single minded people. Who demand the best,are willing to set the tone by being the hardest worker in the building and only care about success, in high management positions.

The Texans could use somebody like this to run their organization. Be it Gruden,Cowher,Parcells etc....

The these are great kids mentality/country club mentality needs to end. These are grown men who are paid millions of $$$$ to do their jobs and it appears to me that their is very little accountibility if they fail to do their jobs properly. IMHO

A great example of this is the technique Allen was playing on the bombto Edwards He was playing the inside technique when he should've been playing outside technique. I will give Allen a break since he's only been on the team for 2 wks. But coacxhes heads should roll for this happening including Kubes.

This kinda crap has been going on for far too long. IMHO And a hard a** is just what the doctor ordered. IMHO

Doc. Jean can you order me up a harda** Parcells/Gruden type guy to run this organization? LOL

ChampionTexan
11-25-2010, 10:10 AM
The fact that Caldwell made it to the SB in his rookie yr as a head coach reflects poorly on Dungy. IMHO I will admit I'm a Dungy hater.

That's Manninngs team. End of story

Gruden>>>>> Dungy

So what does it say that Callahan made the Super Bowl in his rookie year following Gruden?

steelbtexan
11-25-2010, 11:21 AM
So what does it say that Callahan made the Super Bowl in his rookie year following Gruden?

It says that Gruden despite Al Davis' meddling built a great team.

It's amazing that Gruden/Allen could build a team that good inspite of the challanges that working with Davis, Gruden built a winner anyway.

Job well done, IMHO and nobody before or since in the last 20 yrs has been able to pull off what Gruden did. That reflects on Gruden in a positive way. IMHO

GuerillaBlack
11-25-2010, 12:58 PM
The way people try to discredit Gruden is amazing.

wagonhed
11-25-2010, 01:02 PM
The way people try to discredit Gruden is amazing.

Isn't it?

Hey, I despite Cowher and especially Dungy. But at least I can admit that Cowher is an incredible coach, probably the best one available. I think doubts about Dungy are at least moderately well-founded, though. All things considered, and I mean ALL things (not just selective stats), I think that the safest bet between those three goes in this order: Cowher - Gruden - Dungy

TimeKiller
11-25-2010, 07:21 PM
Wait I get how it works now, you hire Dungy, then the year after he leaves you get a SB appearance!

Pantherstang84
11-27-2010, 09:06 AM
Wagonhed asks a good question. Are you comparing Gruden to Kubes?

If so, LOL.

Why do you hate Gruden? Some people dont care for hard driven single minded people. Who demand the best,are willing to set the tone by being the hardest worker in the building and only care about success, in high management positions.

The Texans could use somebody like this to run their organization. Be it Gruden,Cowher,Parcells etc....

The these are great kids mentality/country club mentality needs to end. These are grown men who are paid millions of $$$$ to do their jobs and it appears to me that their is very little accountibility if they fail to do their jobs properly. IMHO

A great example of this is the technique Allen was playing on the bombto Edwards He was playing the inside technique when he should've been playing outside technique. I will give Allen a break since he's only been on the team for 2 wks. But coacxhes heads should roll for this happening including Kubes.

This kinda crap has been going on for far too long. IMHO And a hard a** is just what the doctor ordered. IMHO

Doc. Jean can you order me up a harda** Parcells/Gruden type guy to run this organization? LOL

^^^^ This.

What I like about Gruden is precisely this. The guy was usually in his office at around 4 in the morning. Every morning. Did not demand more from his players and coaches that he wasn't willing to give himself. THAT my friends is the textbook definition of a leader. Somebody from the Parcells, Gruden mold is exactly what the entire Texans organization needs.

infantrycak
11-27-2010, 10:15 AM
^^^^ This.

What I like about Gruden is precisely this. The guy was usually in his office at around 4 in the morning. Every morning. Did not demand more from his players and coaches that he wasn't willing to give himself. THAT my friends is the textbook definition of a leader. Somebody from the Parcells, Gruden mold is exactly what the entire Texans organization needs.

Good call. Kubiak is also a renowned workaholic.

I guess Gruden would be fun just to see if Justice would call him out for shouting.

Maybe we could bring back Sage to work under Gruden since he couldn't work under pansy Kubiak's ire.

Texecutioner
11-27-2010, 04:58 PM
Isn't it?

Hey, I despite Cowher and especially Dungy. But at least I can admit that Cowher is an incredible coach, probably the best one available. I think doubts about Dungy are at least moderately well-founded, though. All things considered, and I mean ALL things (not just selective stats), I think that the safest bet between those three goes in this order: Cowher - Gruden - Dungy

I agree with this order.

I'm not really a big advocate of Gruden though. I've got a buddy that's a huge Bucs fan, and he destested Gruden for years in Tampa. He always told me about a lot of things that didn't hit the National media that was all over the local media out in Tampa about Gruden and how he allienated the players a lot and how so many players wanted out of there because they couldn't stand Gruden. I noticed that to some degree, but I really noticed it after hearing my friend talk about it for a while and then to see what took place a year or so at the end of his tenure.

However Gruden could possibly be just the right guy for this soft finnesse Texans team though that has been used to being coddled and back rubbed the last few years by these brainless dingbats we have as coaches. Gruden could possibly be the guy that could get the right kind of results out of these guys that Kubiak hasn't.

At this point it hardly matters who comes in though. I just want this HC and GM gone. They're both complete fools that have the most ridiculous philosophies of building only through the draft and Kubes nickname as HC ought to be called "The Bad Omen."

Lucky
11-27-2010, 05:03 PM
...about Gruden and how he allienated the players a lot and how so many players wanted out of there because they couldn't stand Gruden.
I'm sure Gruden's intensity was a huge shock to players used to Dungy's laidback approach. It worked for Gruden for a season. But, I think that team grew old, and Gruden never solved the QB position. That's what would concern me about an offensive minded head coach.

Still, Gruden >>> Kubiak.

Texecutioner
11-27-2010, 06:01 PM
I'm sure Gruden's intensity was a huge shock to players used to Dungy's laidback approach. It worked for Gruden for a season. But, I think that team grew old, and Gruden never solved the QB position. That's what would concern me about an offensive minded head coach.

Still, Gruden >>> Kubiak.

Yeah, seeing what he was able to do with that Bucs team that constantly under achieved under Dungy has to get credit to Gruden. Some people try to discredit Gruden for that SB, but he went in there and got it done right away. He just never got that offense back on track. He never found the right QB, and part of that was his fault because he was crazy with his QB's, and even when Garcia was his best guy he meddled with him to much and sat him at a time when the team was playing well with him. That was a perfect example of what my buddy would talk about.

But like you say, Gruden would be a huge upgrade over Kubes. That's a no brainer. He's accomplished a lot more and he's at least a coach that knows how to send a message to his players. That's exactly what this team needs.

Dutchrudder
11-27-2010, 11:06 PM
Honestly, if Gruden came in here and won just 1 Super Bowl, he could go 8-8 for the next 4 years before I wouldn't care much about firing him. A Super Bowl win is a distinction that only about 25 headcoaches can claim. It's not as easy as some would like you to believe.

edo783
11-28-2010, 09:54 PM
I have NO idea what makes anyone think that Dungy would be back coaching. The only three names that are major names that could be reasonably assumed to be available are Cowher, Gruden and Billick. in that order of competence and ability IMO. Strangely enough, Gruden may be the one that would work best for this team, IF he had a solid 4-3 DC with him. My expectation for Cowher would be massive changes and that would be a 2-3 year shifting of personnel due to switching to the 3-4. Billick, would just be a mild upgrade IMO and that just due to his experience, not necessarily his better coaching acumen.