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drewmar74
11-05-2010, 10:06 AM
The regression of Texan defensive players by Texan coaching - a subject that I have seen mentioned here before but I don't know that it has really been dissected.... My thoughts are below. Please understand that I learn a lot from this board. I openly admit that a lot of the posters are much more knowledgeable than myself. So I'm not throwing things out as gospel and a lot of this will sound very subjective. Rather, I'm hoping to inspire some discourse that might shed some light on some gray areas.

Over the past few days I have been thinking about this "regression via coaching" subject. First, I was wondering if Cushing's lack of impact YTD has been because he WAS on PED's last year and is NOT this year. I was mulling the timing of drug tests, etc. and I started thinking - well, this is his second year here. Seems some of our players suffer from a sophomore slump (followed by the junior jinx, senior suckitude, etc).

So Cush was my first example - is his lack of impact PED related or has he been coached down by our staff (yes, I know his positive test was not for PED's but a recovery agent)?

Other examples:

Demeco - his first couple of years he seemed to have a greater impact on games and seemed more athletic than recently. Has his bigger size coupled with not having good DT's hampered his play or is it coaching?

Will Demps - Showed up with some flashes his first year here then faded into obscurity. Was it his modeling career and old age or was it coaching?

Fred Bennett - Looks like a real up and coming talent his first year. Serviceable the next. Now - out of the league after the Chargers let him go. Flash in the pan in year one? Or raw but talented and coached right out of the league?

Bernard Pollard - Hell of a lot more effective last year. Poor tackling, poor angles, etc. this year. Second year in our system. Has he been exposed by other teams' film study or coached out of being good?

Zac Diles - 7th round pick turned starter. Played pretty dang well for awhile. This year, not so much. Again - was he like Fred Bennett? Raw talent coached down?

I could probably sit here and rattle off some more, but I think that I've thrown enough examples out to spark some conversation. Are we actually seeing our defensive talent coached down or are we seeing a bunch of other factors that just makes it look that way?

I'm hoping that its the latter but I'm afraid its the former.

Thoughts?

vupac1
11-05-2010, 10:22 AM
Very interesting theory, hard to deny.

Perhaps Jason Babin? Never fully coached up talent, now thriving in a well-coached system in Tennessee??

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Very interesting theory, hard to deny.

Perhaps Jason Babin? Never fully coached up talent, now thriving in a well-coached system in Tennessee??

See - that's a point I kept getting hung up on.

It's not just the current regime - this is a trend that seems to have been in place that transcends the current coaching stuff and goes back a little bit.

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 10:50 AM
See - that's a point I kept getting hung up on.

It's not just the current regime - this is a trend that seems to have been in place that transcends the current coaching stuff and goes back a little bit.

Certain coaches want players to do a set job that the coach has in mind, regardless what the player is better at doing. Certain other coaches look at players and see what they do and don't do well and them put them in position to succeed. There is a bit of both going on at all times, of course, but coaches seem to lean one way or the other, for the most part.

Imagine taking LT and telling him to cover TEs. Imagine telling Deion he's a zone corner (or Ronde Barber he's a man corner). Etc., etc., etc.

Babin is and always was a DE. He just needed some coaching to be a good DE in the NFL. Instead, he got moved to OLB in a 3-4.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 10:55 AM
Certain coaches want players to do a set job that the coach has in mind, regardless what the player is better at doing. Certain other coaches look at players and see what they do and don't do well and them put them in position to succeed. There is a bit of both going on at all times, of course, but coaches seem to lean one way or the other, for the most part.

Imagine taking LT and telling him to cover TEs. Imagine telling Deion he's a zone corner (or Ronde Barber he's a man corner). Etc., etc., etc.

Babin is and always was a DE. He just needed some coaching to be a good DE in the NFL. Instead, he got moved to OLB in a 3-4.

Understood.

But does serve as an example of a poor decision by a GM or as an example of poor coaching? Both, maybe?

Hagar
11-05-2010, 10:55 AM
There's also the whole "not living up to potential" portion of our defense too ~ Mario, Amobe, Travis Johnson.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 11:00 AM
There's also the whole "not living up to potential" portion of our defense too ~ Mario, Amobe, Travis Johnson.

Correct.

Which brings me to another point I was contemplating.....

The "start hot and begin to fade" plan seems to be limited to the LB's and DB's. The "never really get hot" seems to be the pattern with the DL.

I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking all this....

Grams
11-05-2010, 11:05 AM
Well if we have had to "dumb" down the defense and play pretty vanilla schemes - seems to me we have drafted the dumbest defensive players on earth.

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 11:07 AM
Understood.

But does serve as an example of a poor decision by a GM or as an example of poor coaching? Both, maybe?

Poor synergy between the two, I'd say. In Kubiak's case, however, he's pretty much in charge of personnel. Rick Smith was hired by Kubiak, and Kubiak is the man on draft day. I mean, he takes input, of course, and he drafts guys his coaches want in some cases, but by and large, he's the one with the vision for what these guys will do.

There's also the whole "not living up to potential" portion of our defense too ~ Mario, Amobe, Travis Johnson.

There's a lot of that. I wouldn't put Mario in that category, though. He had something like 39.5 sacks in his first 4 years and a ton of hurries and tackles for loss, and I honestly can't name another DE that plays the run any better. So I think he's lived up to his draft spot. People expect more of him because they see the freakish things he can do from time to time, but it's not realistic to expect those things when he has zero help in up-the-middle QB pressure.

Amobi Ok0ye was drafted to do just what he did in college, so he's a bust in every sense of the word, IMO.

As for the secondary, that was a huge coaching blunder, IMO. Remember the great rookie season that D-Rob had? Remember who he had playing in that secondary with him? He had former Pro Bowl guys playing at FS and CB. Kareem Jackson, Glover Quin, Brice McCain, and Troy Nolan have no such help. That was a coaching decision.

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 11:09 AM
Correct.

Which brings me to another point I was contemplating.....

The "start hot and begin to fade" plan seems to be limited to the LB's and DB's. The "never really get hot" seems to be the pattern with the DL.

I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking all this....

Our DTs suck. That's really all there is to it. Shaun Cody might be our best DT, and he's a role player at best, suited for stopping the run. We get zero pressure up the middle from the DT spot, except maybe for one play a game where Ok0ye decides to do something (or the guy holding Ok0ye screws up).

TimeKiller
11-05-2010, 11:09 AM
Don't forget Slaton or Okoye, they both exploded as rookies...and then...well exploded in a different manner since...

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 11:11 AM
Well if we have had to "dumb" down the defense and play pretty vanilla schemes - seems to me we have drafted the dumbest defensive players on earth.

We already play a pretty vanilla scheme. We just don't have as much talent on the defensive side of the ball as people like to think. High draft position != NFL talent. Or if you prefer, NFL talent != NFL success, necessarily. This is where Kubiak's failings in evaluating defensive personnel shows up.

The offensive side of the ball is where Kubiak's failings as a coach are glaring. There is no excuse for the offense to come out and play as crappy in the first half of games as they have this year.

Texan4Ever
11-05-2010, 11:18 AM
Agreed with all the points being made. This is probably more obvious then anything but it seems, either are team does well as a unit or regresses to a point where everyone starts to suck. There were only a few times in the past where we were average at best on defense and still had bright spots on the team...and now there hitting an all time low as well.

The only way we can improve is by doing the following:

A.) Find a new role for Amobi Okoye or let someone else take his spot. He struggles to shed blockers and often times he's getting pushed back. Either find someone who can take on blockers to help him out or bench him and find someone who can play the position.

B.) For Mario Williams, a beast whose almost 300-Lbs, all I see him doing is making a wide arc whereby he is completely out of the picture and the quarterback has to merely step into the pocket and make his throws. Time for him to either bull rush opposing linemen or get the d-line to perform stunts and take advantage of his size.

C.) DeMeco Ryan's needs to go back to his Rookie weight, when he was playing he looked slow and wasn't the DeMeco I saw play back in 2006 and 2007.

D.) Condition better. In the first few games I saw, our defensive players were slow to get to the LOS and after the play was made they just jogged back to the huddle. Saw almost little to no hustling.

Just my thoughts...

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 11:26 AM
B.) For Mario Williams, a beast whose almost 300-Lbs, all I see him doing is making a wide arc whereby he is completely out of the picture and the quarterback has to merely step into the pocket and make his throws. Time for him to either bull rush opposing linemen or get the d-line to perform stunts and take advantage of his size.

Mario and Smith have done some inside stunts, and to good effect. They've both had some good plays from the inside stunts. I don't know why they don't do more of it, except that you can't do that 100% of the time. As for Mario making a wide arc, it's his job to rush that lane. Maybe he gets pushed outside a little too wide on some plays, but those OTs get paid too. The key part of your entire argument regarding this is what I bolded. QB step up into the pocket because there is abbsolutely ZERO pressure up the middle. So the DEs doing their job results in the edges being taken away. When's the last time you saw a QB scramble out to Mario's side? It doesn't happen. They step up into the nice, clean pocket allowed by our DTs, and then if the QB has to run, he runs between the G and T. If Mario had any help inside, he'd be a lot closer to what some of y'all are expecting, because the QB wouldn't be able to get away.

Honestly, I think Houston fan base is flawed with regard to Mario. We're so used to seeing DEs go by, around, and through our tackles that we expect every DE to do that to other tackles, and we're so used to not seeing a pocket to step up into that we are frustrated that other QBs seem to always have a clean pocket.

Houston had a good pass rush back in .....

Texan4Ever
11-05-2010, 11:38 AM
Mario and Smith have done some inside stunts, and to good effect. They've both had some good plays from the inside stunts. I don't know why they don't do more of it, except that you can't do that 100% of the time. As for Mario making a wide arc, it's his job to rush that lane. Maybe he gets pushed outside a little too wide on some plays, but those OTs get paid too. The key part of your entire argument regarding this is what I bolded. QB step up into the pocket because there is abbsolutely ZERO pressure up the middle. So the DEs doing their job results in the edges being taken away. When's the last time you saw a QB scramble out to Mario's side? It doesn't happen. They step up into the nice, clean pocket allowed by our DEs, and then if the QB has to run, he runs between the G and T. If Mario had any help inside, he'd be a lot closer to what some of y'all are expecting, because the QB wouldn't be able to get away.

Honestly, I think Houston fan base is flawed with regard to Mario. We're so used to seeing DEs go by, around, and through our tackles that we expect every DE to do that to other tackles, and we're so used to not seeing a pocket to step up into that we are frustrated that other QBs seem to always have a clean pocket.

Houston had a good pass rush back in .....


For the bolded (your part), the last time I saw that happen was with Jay Cutler when he was with the Broncos...Mario had three sacks that game.

Now that I think about it, you're right. The DTs seem to disappear which allows the QB the ability to step into the pocket and take off or throw the ball.

sakebomb
11-05-2010, 11:58 AM
Mario going wide and the QB stepping up due to no pressure up the middle seems to happens on about 90% of passing plays.

I'm not sure why our coaching staff can't see it and do something about it. :choke:

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Good discussion and I think that the lack of "push" from our DT's is a well documented issue.

But, going back to the jist of the OP, why is it that we see so much decline in players after a couple of years in our "system?"

Is it the coaching? Other factors?

eriadoc
11-05-2010, 12:09 PM
Good discussion and I think that the lack of "push" from our DT's is a well documented issue.

But, going back to the jist of the OP, why is it that we see so much decline in players after a couple of years in our "system?"

Is it the coaching? Other factors?

It all comes back to the HC. He chose the players, he chose the position coaches, he schemes for those players, and he's the one deciding who does what.

HJam72
11-05-2010, 12:30 PM
How much better would the whole D look if our DTs were actually getting adequate pressure on the QB? How 'bout if they just stood toe-to-toe with the OL instead of getting pushed back/out wide?

How many more sacks would our DEs have? How much better would the DBs look?

I have never been a fan of having relatively small DTs that try to use quickness. They are inside linemen. They need to fight for ground, not try to run around somebody from within a mass of huge bodies. There's no room to run around somebody in there and we don't need DTs chasing QBs anyway (as if they could); we need them commanding double teams or at the least holding their ground. We have one big guy like that (or did), and apparently he just sucks. We need to draft BIG DTs....with some amount of talent and fight in them please...

Let Okoye go play LB for some crappy 3-4 team. :sarcasm:

hookinreds
11-05-2010, 12:44 PM
Maybe easier and a shorter list, but who on this team has gotten better since joining the team?

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 12:50 PM
Maybe easier and a shorter list, but who on this team has gotten better since joining the team?

AJ is the only one who comes immediately to mind.

TimeKiller
11-05-2010, 01:35 PM
Maybe easier and a shorter list, but who on this team has gotten better since joining the team?

Walter
Foster
Schaub
Daniels
Dressen
Winston

Come on don't act like nobody has received some good coaching up.

I got another bone to pick that is similar to the coaching issue here so I'll dump it here and hope it gets some run...We pick up guys who are better at other things than what you would typically expect from a certain position...mostly on D.

Take the DTs. They want smaller, pass rusher types to shoot gaps and ruin OL....k....so they don't do that quite often and since none of them are the mythically big, fat guy DT we usually see the middle of the DL caving in on runs and NOT caving in (the OL) on passes.

Take the LBers. Sure it's nice to have reliable run stoppers, someone's gotta make up for the DTs...but can't we have ONE guy that's a reliable TE cover-er?

Take the CBs....guys who are better in run support than coverage...AT THE POSITION WHERE COVERAGE IS THE COVETED SKILL. If they're so worried about the DTs not getting the job done that they would emphasize run support over coverage all the way to the back of the defense.....I'ma go with fail.

S...wtf do they want out of these guys? I mean they seem content with nothing.

Offense isn't so bad, save the OL. We add a couple legit 300 pounders in place of Brisel and Studdard and all of a sudden they can run the ball. Not a coincidence.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Walter
Foster
Schaub
Daniels
Dressen
Winston

Come on don't act like nobody has received some good coaching up.

Notice that all of the "improved" players are on offense?

And I hear what you are saying about the D..... I just don't know what to make of them.

rmartin65
11-05-2010, 02:43 PM
I have actually been thinking about this, nice topic. I think that it has been shown that Kubiak and Co. can not coach D. Every year (seemingly) we have a breakout, late round rookie that looks like shit the next year.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 02:46 PM
I have actually been thinking about this, nice topic. I think that it has been shown that Kubiak and Co. can not coach D. Every year (seemingly) we have a breakout, late round rookie that looks like shit the next year.

I'm glad to hear it isn't just me.

I'm beginning to think that we're drafting and signing talent and then screwing it all up.

Philip Buchanon - played well elsewhere, played like dookie for us, now is more than serviceable in Washington.

I'm trying to think of another example but most of our former players (that I can call to mind) from the D, save Dunta, are out of the league.

Thorn
11-05-2010, 02:51 PM
Don't worry guys, the season isn't three quarters over yet. It isn't time for the defense to step up and play to their potential. Give it another month and they'll be playing like champs. :)

Rey
11-05-2010, 02:52 PM
I still do not believe that the team puts the defensive players in the best position to succeed. I liked seeing the whole D-line standing last weekend on a couple of third and long passing downs, but that is no longer an innovative strategy...lol...


They are just so far behind the curve it's not even funny. Seems as if other d-coordinators can design blitz schemes where they have one or two free rushers and they force the qb to get rid of the ball fast or eat a sack...but when we blitz it all gets picked up...

If you can't get a lot of pressure inside with your DT's how about moving Mario and Smith inside some times and putting quicker DE's out on the edge...Maybe use that combo and still have them all standing up...Drop different guys into zones, bring LB's, bring DB's....

I honestly believe that if you use a guys talents and put him in the best situation to succeed he can thrive...

Just do something to show that you are trying to put pressure on the offenses and make them respond to what we're doing.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Don't worry guys, the season isn't three quarters over yet. It isn't time for the defense to step up and play to their potential. Give it another month and they'll be playing like champs. :)

Usual stuff? Playing well when it is too late to matter?

Rey
11-05-2010, 02:55 PM
Don't worry guys, the season isn't three quarters over yet. It isn't time for the defense to step up and play to their potential. Give it another month and they'll be playing like champs. :)

That would be about par for the course.

Plating well against teams out of the race or teams that have already gotten the wins they need.

DexmanC
11-05-2010, 03:01 PM
That would be about par for the course.

Plating well against teams out of the race or teams that have already gotten the wins they need.

People were upset when I de-valued the Patriots game last year. WE
needed the win, THEY treated it like a glorified SCRIMMAGE, which is
100% IDENTICAL to what the Jags did with us in '07.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 03:38 PM
People were upset when I de-valued the Patriots game last year. WE
needed the win, THEY treated it like a glorified SCRIMMAGE, which is
100% IDENTICAL to what the Jags did with us in '07.

So if I tie what you're saying to the OP - the players may be coached down and, the actual extent of how bad the problem actually is can be / is watered down by scenarios like the Pats game last year?

Also, I'm surprised that no one has touched the Cushing dominant in year one, average in year two angle here. Is everyone thinking that it was PED's based off of the difference in the two years?

badboy
11-05-2010, 04:18 PM
The regression of Texan defensive players by Texan coaching - a subject that I have seen mentioned here before but I don't know that it has really been dissected.... My thoughts are below. Please understand that I learn a lot from this board. I openly admit that a lot of the posters are much more knowledgeable than myself. So I'm not throwing things out as gospel and a lot of this will sound very subjective. Rather, I'm hoping to inspire some discourse that might shed some light on some gray areas.

Over the past few days I have been thinking about this "regression via coaching" subject. First, I was wondering if Cushing's lack of impact YTD has been because he WAS on PED's last year and is NOT this year. I was mulling the timing of drug tests, etc. and I started thinking - well, this is his second year here. Seems some of our players suffer from a sophomore slump (followed by the junior jinx, senior suckitude, etc).

So Cush was my first example - is his lack of impact PED related or has he been coached down by our staff (yes, I know his positive test was not for PED's but a recovery agent)?

Other examples:

Demeco - his first couple of years he seemed to have a greater impact on games and seemed more athletic than recently. Has his bigger size coupled with not having good DT's hampered his play or is it coaching?

Will Demps - Showed up with some flashes his first year here then faded into obscurity. Was it his modeling career and old age or was it coaching?

Fred Bennett - Looks like a real up and coming talent his first year. Serviceable the next. Now - out of the league after the Chargers let him go. Flash in the pan in year one? Or raw but talented and coached right out of the league?

Bernard Pollard - Hell of a lot more effective last year. Poor tackling, poor angles, etc. this year. Second year in our system. Has he been exposed by other teams' film study or coached out of being good?

Zac Diles - 7th round pick turned starter. Played pretty dang well for awhile. This year, not so much. Again - was he like Fred Bennett? Raw talent coached down?

I could probably sit here and rattle off some more, but I think that I've thrown enough examples out to spark some conversation. Are we actually seeing our defensive talent coached down or are we seeing a bunch of other factors that just makes it look that way?

I'm hoping that its the latter but I'm afraid its the former.

Thoughts?Will Demps stick out to me. Went to pro bowl as an alternate wearing an arm cast! I thought we had found our free safety. Man was I wrong.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Will Demps stick out to me. Went to pro bowl as an alternate wearing an arm cast! I thought we had found our free safety. Man was I wrong.

Exactly. There's bunches of them.

Hey - how about DelJuan? Showed some real flashes playing DT..... and then after a little bit of time in our system he's gone.

Looking more like our system is a program by which defensive players get chewed up and spit right out of the league.

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:13 PM
Very interesting theory, hard to deny.

Perhaps Jason Babin? Never fully coached up talent, now thriving in a well-coached system in Tennessee??

If Babin proves to be somebody, that would prove that Casserly was right.

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:22 PM
The offensive side of the ball is where Kubiak's failings as a coach are glaring. There is no excuse for the offense to come out and play as crappy in the first half of games as they have this year.

Exactly. If all the anti Kubiak guys would harp on this... no one could argue. If there is a reason or proof that Kubiak isn't the guy for us, it is what is happening on the offensive side of the ball.

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
Now that I think about it, you're right. The DTs seem to disappear which allows the QB the ability to step into the pocket and take off or throw the ball.

From what I've seen, Amobi seems to take an outside arc on his way to the passer. It's not that he doesn't get pressure up the middle, but he's bringing it to the outside, which is a win for the Offensive guard.

I think he does a good job when we play with 3 down linemen & he is playing over a tackle. He's too small to play a 3-4 DE, but that's where he looks good.

IMHO.

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:39 PM
Good discussion and I think that the lack of "push" from our DT's is a well documented issue.

But, going back to the jist of the OP, why is it that we see so much decline in players after a couple of years in our "system?"

Is it the coaching? Other factors?

It does seem that this coaching staff has been asking everyone to gain weight. They didn't seem to care how that weight was gained. Slaton looked pudgy to me. Amobi looked pudgy to me. Demeco... got a little pudge going.

Vonta has some pudge going too...

They need to be worried about body fat & weight, not just weight.

Babin was the same way. He looks like an athlete now.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/08/17/2008120256.jpg
compared to how he used to look.
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000A6t3CuS07ps/s

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:45 PM
I'm glad to hear it isn't just me.

I'm beginning to think that we're drafting and signing talent and then screwing it all up.

Philip Buchanon - played well elsewhere, played like dookie for us, now is more than serviceable in Washington.

I'm trying to think of another example but most of our former players (that I can call to mind) from the D, save Dunta, are out of the league.

Buchannon is their nickel corner. We tried to make him our #2.

Babin is the only one I know of that has started for a reason other than injury.

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 05:53 PM
Also, I'm surprised that no one has touched the Cushing dominant in year one, average in year two angle here. Is everyone thinking that it was PED's based off of the difference in the two years?

You know people have been crediting the appearance of Pollard with our "success" on D last year. Most people were also praising Gary Kubiak & Frank Bush for that D.

But Brian Cushing looked like crap... like a rookie his first three games & got better as the year went on. Being that he missed the preseason, that makes sense.

He's only played 3 games this year. One of which at a new position.

He looks fine... & will be making plays soon.

Goatcheese
11-05-2010, 06:03 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see Pollard replaced by Nolan or Barber?

thunderkyss
11-05-2010, 06:10 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see Pollard replaced by Nolan or Barber?

I still want Wilson replaced. He had a couple of almost "plays" but he was more wrong than right Monday night.

ATXtexanfan
11-05-2010, 06:27 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see Pollard replaced by Nolan or Barber?

he needs a benching but are the options any better. willing to try anything

TexCanada
11-05-2010, 06:42 PM
he needs a benching but are the options any better. willing to try anything

I don't think Pollard needs a benching. Pollard gives everything he's got on every play, what he needs is a decent coach who can teach him how to improve. Either that or a Coordinator who doesn't set him up to fail all the time.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 06:45 PM
You know people have been crediting the appearance of Pollard with our "success" on D last year. Most people were also praising Gary Kubiak & Frank Bush for that D.

But Brian Cushing looked like crap... like a rookie his first three games & got better as the year went on. Being that he missed the preseason, that makes sense.

He's only played 3 games this year. One of which at a new position.

He looks fine... & will be making plays soon.

I sincerely hope that you are correct.

ArlingtonTexan
11-05-2010, 07:08 PM
Exactly. There's bunches of them.

Hey - how about DelJuan? Showed some real flashes playing DT..... and then after a little bit of time in our system he's gone.

Looking more like our system is a program by which defensive players get chewed up and spit right out of the league.

Will Demps had already proven to be a spare part player before he got with the Texans. As I remember, there were plenty of people on this board who were more than a little surprised by the pro-bowl recognition, because he really did NOT play that well with the Texans. The fact that he has not played another meaningful down in the NFL tells me all I need to know about that specific player.


While I am at it, people need to stop with the Jason Babin junk also. After he left the Texans three other organizations had no use for the guy. The fluke is that he has had a productive season, nothing against the Texans evaluation. I give dude credit for not giving up on his career and taking advantage of a perfect situation though.

Overall, the premise of the thread is good. During the off-season, there was no reason to suspect this type of regression from the defense. all of the players returning were in parts of their career which should be the peak (Williams, Pollard, Ryans) or young players who should be improving (Cushing, Quinn). There is a coaching/talent evaluation issue here. Sorry, replacing D. Robinson with a rookie and keeping the rest of a under 30 year old defense should not mean going from average/decent at the end of last year to the bottom of the league this year.

drewmar74
11-05-2010, 09:15 PM
Overall, the premise of the thread is good. During the off-season, there was no reason to suspect this type of regression from the defense. all of the players returning were in parts of their career which should be the peak (Williams, Pollard, Ryans) or young players who should be improving (Cushing, Quinn). There is a coaching/talent evaluation issue here. Sorry, replacing D. Robinson with a rookie and keeping the rest of a under 30 year old defense should not mean going from average/decent at the end of last year to the bottom of the league this year.

Agreed.

I'm not even sure that it is a talent evaluation issue.... I really think the talent is there and they're just getting coached to their collective doom.

Okay, so maybe the "collective doom" is a bit much, but I think you catch my drift.

hradhak
11-05-2010, 11:04 PM
Will Demps had already proven to be a spare part player before he got with the Texans. As I remember, there were plenty of people on this board who were more than a little surprised by the pro-bowl recognition, because he really did NOT play that well with the Texans. The fact that he has not played another meaningful down in the NFL tells me all I need to know about that specific player.


While I am at it, people need to stop with the Jason Babin junk also. After he left the Texans three other organizations had no use for the guy. The fluke is that he has had a productive season, nothing against the Texans evaluation. I give dude credit for not giving up on his career and taking advantage of a perfect situation though.

Overall, the premise of the thread is good. During the off-season, there was no reason to suspect this type of regression from the defense. all of the players returning were in parts of their career which should be the peak (Williams, Pollard, Ryans) or young players who should be improving (Cushing, Quinn). There is a coaching/talent evaluation issue here. Sorry, replacing D. Robinson with a rookie and keeping the rest of a under 30 year old defense should not mean going from average/decent at the end of last year to the bottom of the league this year.
I agree that there is something going on with the coaching. I can't offload all the blame onto the coaches though. Missing gap responsibilities and poor tackling are not on the coaches. Yes, the scheming is questionable at, but when you break up a play in the backfield and then don't tackle (both in the Indy and KC game) that's on your players.

Maddict5
11-06-2010, 01:47 AM
Am I the only one that wants to see Pollard replaced by Nolan or Barber?

no was thinking the exact same thing the last few weeks. dude is all talk & no action this yr