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View Full Version : JJ Moses just signed...


Mean Machine
03-30-2005, 03:56 PM
Heard it on 790ESPN....for the league minimum. Pallilo said that while JJ does not have break away for the TD return speed, he is very sure handed.
I agree, I like JJ a bunch, and remember what a debacle it was when we put Aaron Glen and Jabar back there for the Jets game last year when JJ was hurt. Special teams are almost as important as the O and D in this league.

El Tejano
03-30-2005, 04:15 PM
Well in the Jaxonville game, we almost lost the game on ST alone because JJ wasn't back there to field punts. I am glad we have him, I believe that he does what he can do for us and he does it well. I still believe he will bust one before it is all said and done.

tiger06
03-30-2005, 04:21 PM
I feel much better having JJ returning kicks. He rarely fumbles and gives us good field position.

TEXANS84
03-30-2005, 04:38 PM
A good sign. Glad to have JJ back on the field again....and like Mean Machine stated, we all saw how our return coprs faired without JJ in the mix.

El Tejano
03-30-2005, 04:43 PM
Funny how the opinions of Moses changed once we got to see what it was like without his sure hands.

TigerBait
03-30-2005, 06:17 PM
Hes definetly nothing special.. but yea he gets the job done i suppose. And Id rather it be him getting injured on a ST play rather than say one of our studs, ex. Dunta :thumbup

D-ReK
03-30-2005, 10:43 PM
Good to see JJ back in the fold...I still say if we can find someone who is as good at returning kicks as he is who actually stands a chance of seeing the field on offense or defense, he's gone...To his credit though, he has proven very hard to replace...At least he isn't making Jermaine Lewis money...

ArlingtonTexan
03-30-2005, 10:43 PM
Funny how the opinions of Moses changed once we got to see what it was like without his sure hands.

My opinion has not changed. If the best, you can about a return man is that he catches the ball then you are not saying too much. All these guys forget the fumble of JJ Moses the next football game after he returned.

He is fan favorite and average at best player. He is the type of player is not an embarrassment, but a team should look to replace pretty much every off-season.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-30-2005, 11:34 PM
I like Chad Owens, the WR from Hawaii. Wouldn't mind picking him up if he were still available in the 7th round. He could give JJ some real competition as a punt/kick returner.

vtech9
03-30-2005, 11:46 PM
My opinion has not changed. If the best, you can about a return man is that he catches the ball then you are not saying too much. All these guys forget the fumble of JJ Moses the next football game after he returned.

He is fan favorite and average at best player. He is the type of player is not an embarrassment, but a team should look to replace pretty much every off-season.
Moses fumbled once, and that was when he was hit from behind during a return and was not a muff. I don't remember ever seeing him muff a punt or kick. We all know what happened when he wasn't in there.

rdbrem
03-31-2005, 12:08 AM
My opinion has not changed. If the best you can say about a return man is that he catches the ball then you are not saying too much. All these guys forget the fumble of JJ Moses the next football game after he returned.

He is fan favorite and average at best player. He is the type of player is not an embarrassment, but a team should look to replace pretty much every off-season.

He is average in the sense of being in the middle of the pack for each team's best returner, with the blocking he gets. Which means there are about 13 or 17 guys who are better than him last year. Lets just pick up one of them, like Dante Hall, he's probably available...

I don't mind having him fight for his job, but seems like we drafted a lot of guys in the lower rounds whose only job was to fight for Moses job. I'd say go ahead and draft one or maybe two. But get some depth other places too. Moses would do a lot better job with better blocking. I've seen Hall run 20 yards while he was still getting blocking protection. KC special teams blocking is pretty good.

We can't just assume that anybody we pull out of the hat is going to be in the top 5 or 10 returners. And if we replace him, we may have to find two guys who can do as well at both positions. Statistically speaking, your odds are 1 in 4 of doing that.

LoNghoRn-TeXaN
03-31-2005, 02:15 AM
I like Chad Owens, the WR from Hawaii. Wouldn't mind picking him up if he were still available in the 7th round. He could give JJ some real competition as a punt/kick returner.

I saw him for the first time in this year's Hawaii Bowl against UAB. I wanted to see Roddy White in action, but Owens really impressed me with his receiving and return skills. If we get him late in the draft, there's no doubt in my mind that he will easily boot JJ off the team.

outofhnd
03-31-2005, 02:55 AM
Wasn't Vontez Duff supposed to boot Moses last year?

I like Moses. He is sure handed and hard to bring down with the first man on kick returns. He makes good running decisions. He runs north to south, and he doesnt try to cut it back across the field. He holds onto the ball for the most part, unfortunately the one time i saw that he had a chance to return one for a TD he did run out of gas. So if he ever breaks that free again if he runs out of gas again even though I like him we will need to find a replacement.

ArlingtonTexan
03-31-2005, 07:39 AM
We can't just assume that anybody we pull out of the hat is going to be in the top 5 or 10 returners. And if we replace him, we may have to find two guys who can do as well at both positions. Statistically speaking, your odds are 1 in 4 of doing that.

My point is that Moses is not better at his job than Eric Brown or Jay Foremen or Billy Miller, but 2/3 of the posts act there is not another guy roaming around the NFL who catches punts and does not fumble. No, he is not a total waste of space, but he is not doing the work of two guys. I am not going to through the NFL rosters, but i am willing to bet that he is near the bottom of prodcution of guys who only job is to return kicks.

No don't replace him any guy named "Joe," but please stop acting like is anything but mediocore, another return guy with some strengths (the over documented hands and ability to make quick, sharp cuts) and some weaknesses (speed, size, and inability to contribute on offrense)

El Tejano
03-31-2005, 09:18 AM
Noone isn't saying he is not mediocre. I think that way also. My point is that guys have come in to take this job from him and due to his production in preseason and regular season, he is still standing. Should we bring another guy in to challenge, of course. Even if he was breaking returns of TDs every other game, we should bring in a challenger because it is special teams and that always has to have good players on it. My thing is that last year we all wanted this guy gone. This year we saw what it was like when somebody else handled the position and now alot of us are happier to have him on the team again.

infantrycak
03-31-2005, 10:07 AM
No don't replace him any guy named "Joe," but please stop acting like is anything but mediocore, another return guy with some strengths (the over documented hands and ability to make quick, sharp cuts) and some weaknesses (speed, size, and inability to contribute on offrense)

JMO but JJ won't get beat out on return ability, but on contribution elsewhere. Bottom line, once someone comes along that the Texans will actually field at their nominal position and can return kicks without muffing, JJ will be gone.

As for stengths and weaknesses:

Over-documented hands: is this really over-documented (by implication over-rated)--two years at both kick and punt returns (which by the way is another strength not listed--the ability to do both which is not the norm) without a muff--198 returns, zero muffs. Since we aren't doing research, I'll bet that is pretty rare--oh what the heck from the top of the list of folks with the most punt returns, BJ Sams had 5 fumbles last year alone, McQuarters 5, Wes Welker 4. Hmmm, maybe that should have been under-documented.

Speed--talk about over-rated--Allen Rossum is one of the fastest guys in the league--he averaged less on kick returns than JJ and had the same longest return of 49 yards. He did rip off one punt return for a TD, but he also coughed the ball up twice.

Size--explain this one--how is size a problem if he isn't getting hurt?

Inability to contribute on offense--absolutely true and this one will ultimately be his demise as a Texan.

El Tejano
03-31-2005, 10:13 AM
I think that pretty much says it all right there.

I don't know if this counts for anything but I have a friend here at work that knows JJ from his days in Iowa and he talks to him regularly. He said JJ told him that he was looking at the Bears but all he wanted was an offer from the Texans to stay even if it meant taking a lower cut. JJ signed for the league minimum (I am sure most around here feel he is worth that only) to stay with this team because he really feels this team will be a great one.

I don't know about yall but I see that little guy run hard on all of his returns and knowing he will do that only making league minimum because he wants to be here instead of anywhere else makes me say "I want that guy on my team."

ArlingtonTexan
03-31-2005, 10:43 AM
JMO but JJ won't get beat out on return ability, but on contribution elsewhere. Bottom line, once someone comes along that the Texans will actually field at their nominal position and can return kicks without muffing, JJ will be gone.

Over-documented hands: is this really over-documented (by implication over-rated)--two years at both kick and punt returns (which by the way is another strength not listed--the ability to do both which is not the norm) without a muff--198 returns, zero muffs.
.

I just constantly here of how valuable Moses is to the Texans because he never drops a punt (which is good)...fans on these boards have beat it to death and for some it seems to be the ONLY skill that matters for a return man. It is like telling me a writer is really good primarily because he never makes a grammar mistake.


Seriously, i know KR is a visable position, but look at the Texan other one trick guys.

IMO,

Jason Bell is a better gunner than Moses a retrun man...equally as bad a CB as Moses as WR.

Moran Norris is a better lead blocker than Moses a retun man..no NFL level skills with ball in his hands.

There is not thread after thread talking about the value these guys to the Texans team. No one congraduated Foremen for being a secure wrap-up, Corye Bradford for superior straightline speed to level that they give Moses for doing one part of a job well. The only other person with the close to the same amount of overlove is Peek.

Ran across this note on a fantasy site which sums my argument up best(from rotoworld.com)

The Houston Texans re-signed WR J.J. Moses to a one-year contract. Financial terms weren't disclosed.
Though Moses is listed as a WR he has not caught a single pass in the first 2 years of his NFL career. He has been a very serviceable return specialist however. The signing is good news for the Texans, but irrelevant to your fantasy team. Mar. 31 - 4:33 am et

Errant Hothy
03-31-2005, 10:48 AM
I think the fact that he signed for the league minimum, is by far and away the best part of this deal.

As for those saying that how the lack fo JJ in the J-ville game(I think). Let's hold back a little bit. Neither Gaffney nor Glenn had been practicing returns, the wind while not overly brutal it did alter the ball flight, and neither of them were ever great returners (Glenn was good in NY). Its safe to say that if we draft a player who can contribute a position well and return kicks and punts, JJ will likely be cut or stashed somewhere.

If by some twist of fate one of the three top RBS fall to teh TExans we might be seeing DD as the return man next year.

infantrycak
03-31-2005, 10:54 AM
There is not thread after thread talking about the value these guys to the Texans team. No one congraduated Foremen for being a secure wrap-up, Corye Bradford for superior straightline speed to level that they give Moses for doing one part of a job well. The only other person with the close to the same amount of overlove is Peek.

I can see your point. JMO but it stems from lots of threads started by people who want to get rid of JJ because he "can't take one to the house" or because my god, he got caught by the kicker (after a 70 yard return). That spurred a lot of JJ discussions while noone was suggesting firing Bell or Norris.

Norris by the way is IMO very underrated and underappreciated. He seems to be becoming one of the better blocking FB's. They need to have Tony Banks playing catch with him all off-season to make him more multi-dimensional.

O.G.
03-31-2005, 04:39 PM
JMO but JJ won't get beat out on return ability, but on contribution elsewhere. Bottom line, once someone comes along that the Texans will actually field at their nominal position and can return kicks without muffing, JJ will be gone.

As for stengths and weaknesses:

Over-documented hands: is this really over-documented (by implication over-rated)--two years at both kick and punt returns (which by the way is another strength not listed--the ability to do both which is not the norm) without a muff--198 returns, zero muffs. Since we aren't doing research, I'll bet that is pretty rare--oh what the heck from the top of the list of folks with the most punt returns, BJ Sams had 5 fumbles last year alone, McQuarters 5, Wes Welker 4. Hmmm, maybe that should have been under-documented.

Speed--talk about over-rated--Allen Rossum is one of the fastest guys in the league--he averaged less on kick returns than JJ and had the same longest return of 49 yards. He did rip off one punt return for a TD, but he also coughed the ball up twice.

Size--explain this one--how is size a problem if he isn't getting hurt?

Inability to contribute on offense--absolutely true and this one will ultimately be his demise as a Texan.

I totally agree!!! :thumbup

TexansTrueFan
03-31-2005, 08:32 PM
i like J.J at the position, he gives us nice field postion on a consistent basis, and i will take UNTIL we can find a guy who can do an equally good job and contribute on Offense/Defense, but hey look what we're paying the guy, its not like he's a big hit on the cap :).

TexansCanes
03-31-2005, 11:24 PM
i have liked jj as the return man. he can get the job done, that is catch the ball and get a decent return. he is a poor man's d hall, he just can't break it. i remember the jets game two years ago and we were down by seven or so (someone can check me) and he took the kickoff and had the hole, but wasn't able to take it to the house. we all remember what happened on fourth down inside the twenty. the only thing i would like is to find someone that can return kicks and can play on offense or defense. we are kind of wasting a roster spot, but i don't want to get replace him if the person is worse. i wouldn't mind getting roscoe parrish to replace him, only if he slips which probably won't happen. he could be a very good slot reciever, but that is were jabar is suppose to be.

texansfan88
03-31-2005, 11:29 PM
I would still like to see them bring in competition to see if he can be beat. I am very negative when it comes to roster spots for long snappers and kick returners unless you are the best at what you do like Dante Hall, Eddie Drummond, and Alan Rossum. There are a few very good kick returners in this draft I think they should look at to at least challenge J.J.

I know J.J. is a fan favorite, and I'm a big fan of his myself, but if there is a 6'1 guy that is better than him at what he does, J.J. would no longer deserve a spot on the team, and I frankly would not care to have him back if he gets beat.

rdbrem
04-01-2005, 12:31 AM
I appreciate the concept that if someone is better than JJ, they should play the position. A lot of coaches use that philosophy...

But arguing against having good hands doesn't make sense to me. Nearly every fumble by a kick returner is going to cost you points. Here are the stats for punt returners with a higher average than JJ:

Drummond is number 1, but has no stats on NFL.com, so I don't know if he's fumbled. Besides, his stats don't count, since he got a 99 yard touchdown against us. :thumbdown

Rossum is number 2 in punt returns, but fumbled twice last year.
Northcut (3) and fumbles twice a year (for the last 4 years).
Micheal Lewis (4), fumbled 3 times in the last two years (6 times in '02).
Welker (5) fumbled 4 times.
Sams (6) fumbled 5 times.
Smith (7) fumbled 4 times.
Hall (8) only fumbled 1 time, but averages 2 fumbles a year.
Lewis (9) only fumbled 1 time,
McQuarters (10) fumbled 5 times
Frazier (11) 2 times
Clements (12) 3 times
Parker (13) 5 times
Moses (t 14) 1 time
Battle (t 14) 2 times
Burleson (t 14) once

Most of these guys don't return kickoffs and punts, which increases your chance of a fumble.

So what I'm saying is, don't knock the 'holding onto the ball' logic. Dropping it costs games. If you have an average that's above half the returners in the NFL, and have fewer fumbles than all of them (nobody had 0), that's a good thing.

I'm surprised JJ hasn't fumbled more, just because everyone else does. And whoever we replace JJ with will probably fumble more.

That's my logic. He's stayed healthy, he's got good hands, he's averaging 8.6 per return on punts. He improved from 2003 to 2004 on punts. Definitely needs improvement on kickoffs, but you'll notice Houston didn't sub somebody else for him. So yeah, play the best guy you've got. But if that ends up being JJ, let it rest.

Vinny
04-01-2005, 12:48 AM
The bottom line is JJ is going to have to fight for his job every single year because he brings nothing to the table other than in the return game. Guys like that are always going to have to deal with a position player possibly taking their job.

beerlover
04-01-2005, 02:14 AM
JJ is a specialist- a modern phenomenon. why because the money is good and there's enough to go around, unlike earlier years when the majority of players played offense, defense & special teams. JJ is a fan favorite, the fans support the team & foot the bill therefore I see no problem as long as he maintains his high level of professionalism.

there will come a day however as Vinny suggests that a two-way upgrade is aquired who will beat JJ down and out of his job, that will be a sad day indeed but one to be prepared to accept. for now the job is his, so to all of you out there come and get it :neener:

outofhnd
04-01-2005, 04:13 AM
J.J. MOses would be the KR in KC if he had a better camp his rookie year they were neck in neck for a time but Hall won out. i think it is smart for him not to really be catching passes.

Maybe it keeps his head clear about what his job is here. return kicks. Not to mention if he became a solid piece of our offense then we would lose his value as a KR.

But there will always be a 7th round /FA burner invited to camp to try out.

!! ITEAF !!
04-01-2005, 08:25 AM
I agree that we don't really have a better return man right now but that doesn't mean that JJ is the answer. As stated here several times, he is average at best.

Has anybody thought about "Slash '05" Matt Jones out of Arkansas? This guy runs a 4.3 40, has sure hands and can pass the ball too. He lacks polish as a QB so he'll probably be around for our second round pick. I know that sounds high but his potential as a receiver might be worth it.

Mean Machine
04-01-2005, 11:45 AM
You know, why is it the Texans have never put JJ in the offense? Have him run an end around. Sure he's 5'6" but height does not matter on that quick out pass we run to Andre. What not try JJ sometimes...He obviously has great hands and can take a hit. I know this, that in section 638, when JJ is back to take back a punt we all are chanting his name!

Vinny
04-01-2005, 11:52 AM
He has worked out of the slot in practice. There is a reason you don't see him in games.

TexansCanes
04-01-2005, 12:42 PM
He has worked out of the slot in practice. There is a reason you don't see him in games.

their is a reason why he isn't play wr, i don't know the exact reason but i trust the coached decision.

infantrycak
04-01-2005, 12:44 PM
He has worked out of the slot in practice. There is a reason you don't see him in games.

That's true to a degree, but as I recall they mainly had him doing ordinary WR stuff and mainly in drills, i.e. no opposition--like when the receivers are all taking turns catching the ball 30 yards down the sideline, etc. When KC uses Hall they use him some in a conventional WR role, but they also do little things like that hitch pass AJ gets and almost like the dump passes to DD. The Texans will throw 7th rounders out there during pre-season games, why not take a few plays to see in real game conditions--I'd just like to see them try outside of having him run 30 yd routes in practice. Heck line him up behind AJ and dump it to him--who do you think the DB's will be concentrating on, plus AJ can lay a heck of a block. Not saying it would make him into a major offensive contributor, but what's the harm in trying in pre-season?

TexansTrueFan
04-01-2005, 07:46 PM
well if we are paying him the minimum i wont complain much, and nobody was gripping about Dunta hall in KC, cause up until this year he really didnt do much more than return punts and kick offs.

outofhnd
04-02-2005, 01:47 AM
There is only 1 problem with that.

If Hall goes down for an extended amount of time then all those plays go on the back burner.

Also Can you name the last superstar speed burner receiver that donned a KC uniform? I sure can't their recieving corps are serviceable vets who were discarded by other teams that got younger faster and more talented players.
Kennison - Rams, Morton - Lions.

And the big play receivers thay have drafted seem to get injured and are never heard from again. Players like Sylvester Morris, Marvin Minnis, i think there is some sort of WR voodoo up in the KC area.

Where here we have a sure handed speed receiver in AJ. So again its smarter to just let Moses return kicks and punts. If we are forced to use him at WR then we will when that time comes.