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wagonhed
10-21-2010, 12:48 PM
I don't have time to post stats, but something I have noticed is that we have a linebacker corps that I would say averages more than 10lbs heavier than other 4-3 teams. By itself that maybe doesn't mean a whole lot, but it might provide insight into our coverage issues.

250 and 260lb linebackers do not cover like 230-235lb ones do. While many teams have at least one starting LB weighing 230-235, our lightest starter is Diles at 245. Even Adibi is 242 and only Sharpton is under 240, at 236.

For comparison.

Eagles LBs:
229
230
230 starter
235
236 starter
242
258 starter

total weight of starters: 724lbs

Saints:
226 starter
230 starter
232 starter
233
238
245
249

total: 688lbs

Falcons:
225
230 starter
233 starter
235
239
242 starter

total: 705lbs



Texans
230 (Bing, IR)
236 (Sharpton)
242 (Adibi)
245 (Diles)
248 (Bentley)
250 (Ryans)
260 (Cushing)

total (using Ryans): 755lbs


Do we have the same issue at LB that we do at DT? That is, the coaches know exactly what kind of player they want and they draft for that, but it isn't what other teams are effectively using? How much are our heavy LBs to blame for our pass defense woes?

drewmar74
10-21-2010, 01:02 PM
Interesting theory.

I've often thought that Demeco, in particular, looks heavier and slower than he did when he came out.

Maybe they want bigger LB's since they will face OL more often given how small the DT's are? And yes, I'd think the bigger LB's would be more of a liability in pass coverage with Cush being more of an exception to that rule.

nero THE zero
10-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Bush tends to run a hybrid-type of defense (as we've seen with the way he uses Cushing). That might have something to do with the size of our LB. One thing's for certain, we do field larger LB than other 4-3 teams.

I don't think it has much to do with coverage though. Cushing is the player skewing our numbers (we'd be pretty much in line with most other 4-3 teams if we played a 235lbs - 240lbs SLB like they do) and he's considered our best coverage LB.

I think our LB are just not good in coverage and it has nothing to do with their weight, but rather their skill set.

infantrycak
10-21-2010, 02:39 PM
LOL - and when DeMeco was drafted he fell to us and folks were concerned about him because he was too small.

Section516
10-21-2010, 03:09 PM
LOL - and when DeMeco was drafted he fell to us and folks were concerned about him because he was too small.

DeMeco Ryans' speed may be average on paper, but he has an incredible burst for a linebacker that let's him close in on his target in a big hurry. While he's been excellent in run support, his strength may be dropping back into coverage, running well with running backs and tight ends.

Interesting..What happened? =P

infantrycak
10-21-2010, 03:15 PM
DeMeco Ryans' speed may be average on paper, but he has an incredible burst for a linebacker that let's him close in on his target in a big hurry. While he's been excellent in run support, his strength may be dropping back into coverage, running well with running backs and tight ends.

Interesting..What happened? =P

People need to have some perspective. We have faced some pretty damn good TEs - Witten, Clark, Cooley are top 10 TEs.

Let's reverse the perspective. I laugh when I see teams try to cover OD with a LB.

DexmanC
10-21-2010, 03:24 PM
People need to have some perspective. We have faced some pretty damn good TEs - Witten, Clark, Cooley are top 10 TEs.

Let's reverse the perspective. I laugh when I see teams try to cover OD with a LB.

That joker the Raiders run out there, and Kevin Boss of the Giants
lit the middle of the field up, too.

infantrycak
10-21-2010, 03:40 PM
That joker the Raiders run out there, and Kevin Boss of the Giants
lit the middle of the field up, too.

Nice job of proving your blind negativity. Zach Miller was drafted just behind DeMeco Ryans and 800 yards last year prove you to be uninformed. Joker? - well someone, but not him. Boss got 40 yards which around here would have people asking about trading or what a poor game OD had. But keep on hammering.

DexmanC
10-21-2010, 03:45 PM
Nice job of proving your blind negativity. Zach Miller was drafted just behind DeMeco Ryans and 800 yards last year prove you to be uninformed. Joker? - well someone, but not him. Boss got 40 yards which around here would have people asking about trading or what a poor game OD had. But keep on hammering.

Yes. This defense is playing so negatively, I'm going blind. All I see is guys running free
after they cross the line of scrimmage. I don't have time to break down what position they
play, because it's a FREE-FOR-ALL if you can get past the d-line.

infantrycak
10-21-2010, 03:49 PM
Yes. This defense is playing so negatively, I'm going blind. All I see is guys running free
after they cross the line of scrimmage. I don't have time to break down what position they
play, because it's a FREE-FOR-ALL if you can get past the d-line.

Spin it how you want. Calling the 8th most prolific TE last year a joker is the joke.

Folks want to ***** about coaching well here is a spot. When you face top 10 TEs don't expect LBs even very good ones to cover them. We consider that a mismatch when other teams try to cover OD that way. The Texans should as well.

nero THE zero
10-21-2010, 03:52 PM
LOL - and when DeMeco was drafted he fell to us and folks were concerned about him because he was too small.

Well, it's not like the fans here made it up. That was the reason he fell out of the first round:
http://profootball.scout.com/2/695087.html
Weak Points: Is well proportioned, but I wouldn’t consider him an imposing figure physically (medium frame athlete with thin, smooth, high knotted calves, big wrist, biceps, and a solid bubble) / Good but not exceptional weight room and playing strength / Was muscled some by big people on the inside (who isn’t) / Saw what I considered some change of speed in his secondary pursuit.

He's also put on 15-20 pounds since he was drafted.

BigBull17
10-21-2010, 04:03 PM
Spin it how you want. Calling the 8th most prolific TE last year a joker is the joke.

Folks want to ***** about coaching well here is a spot. When you face top 10 TEs don't expect LBs even very good ones to cover them. We consider that a mismatch when other teams try to cover OD that way. The Texans should as well.

Yep, cause I remember OD killing Patrick Willis last year, and Willis is a bad mother "shut yo mouth."

Rey
10-21-2010, 04:51 PM
People need to have some perspective. We have faced some pretty damn good TEs - Witten, Clark, Cooley are top 10 TEs.

Let's reverse the perspective. I laugh when I see teams try to cover OD with a LB.


With any LB, or just the run of the mill LB?

I think if you are considered a top 10 MLB, then it shouldn't be LOL time when you are matched up against some of the top TE's...

I don't expect him to be able to win every single match-up, but if you are a top tier LB then you should win some.

If Patrick Willis is matched up against Owen Daniels, Im not LOL'ing thinking he's about to get pwned...Sure I expect OD to beat him, but I would think that he'd get his fair share of wins too.

And I'm not saying Demeco hasn't won any match-ups this year...But if you are a top LB I don't think it should be a crazy notion for you to shut down or win a lot of your match-ups against other top players.

Rey
10-21-2010, 04:53 PM
He's also put on 15-20 pounds since he was drafted.

Been saying that for a while now...

But for some reason people want to keep calling him undersized for a Mike...He's not...and hasn't been for a while...



And while we're at it, if you look at other 4-3 DT's, ours aren't small either...

In fact, compared to a lot of 4-3 we are pretty big across the front line....Compared to a lot of 4-3, we are huge in the front 7....

nero THE zero
10-21-2010, 05:43 PM
In fact, compared to a lot of 4-3 we are pretty big across the front line....Compared to a lot of 4-3, we are huge in the front 7....
The small DL criticism comes primarily from the fact that we employ two ~300lbs DT rather than the conventional 300lbs UT and 340lbs NT. In that respect, we are small. But, our RDE is also 20-30lbs heavier than the conventional RDE.

silvrhand
10-21-2010, 06:17 PM
That joker the Raiders run out there, and Kevin Boss of the Giants
lit the middle of the field up, too.

Zach Miller is an above average TE IMHO, I don't think we see many TE's in the league with 50+ catches?

silvrhand
10-21-2010, 06:19 PM
With any LB, or just the run of the mill LB?

I think if you are considered a top 10 MLB, then it shouldn't be LOL time when you are matched up against some of the top TE's...

I don't expect him to be able to win every single match-up, but if you are a top tier LB then you should win some.

If Patrick Willis is matched up against Owen Daniels, Im not LOL'ing thinking he's about to get pwned...Sure I expect OD to beat him, but I would think that he'd get his fair share of wins too.

And I'm not saying Demeco hasn't won any match-ups this year...But if you are a top LB I don't think it should be a crazy notion for you to shut down or win a lot of your match-ups against other top players.

Come on I've seen Dalla Clark make CB's look stupid, he's a ridiculous TE.. Chris Cooley is really coming into his own as well this year.

silvrhand
10-21-2010, 06:25 PM
Spin it how you want. Calling the 8th most prolific TE last year a joker is the joke.

Folks want to ***** about coaching well here is a spot. When you face top 10 TEs don't expect LBs even very good ones to cover them. We consider that a mismatch when other teams try to cover OD that way. The Texans should as well.

Just to look at what the TE's we have faced are doing this year:

1. Dallas Clark - IND (no suprise)
4. Zach Miller - OAK
6. Chris Cooley - WAS
13. Jason Whitley - DAL

Pretty tough competition..

Texan_Bill
10-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Zach Miller is an above average TE IMHO, I don't think we see many TE's in the league with 50+ catches?

I agree.

Zach Miller has twice as many receptions, twice as many yards and 3 more TD's than Owne Daniels. Yes, we all know OD is coming off his knee injury. That, said Zach Miller isn't chopped liver.

Rey
10-21-2010, 08:05 PM
The small DL criticism comes primarily from the fact that we employ two ~300lbs DT rather than the conventional 300lbs UT and 340lbs NT. In that respect, we are small. But, our RDE is also 20-30lbs heavier than the conventional RDE.

4-3 teams don't generally have 340 lb DT's...

Those types of DT's are normally found in 3-4's...


So no...In any respect we're not small there...

Just go check some of the weights on DT's that play in 4-3's...Most of them or about the same weight that our two starting DT's are...

Rey
10-21-2010, 08:08 PM
Come on I've seen Dalla Clark make CB's look stupid, he's a ridiculous TE.. Chris Cooley is really coming into his own as well this year.

Part of what makes Clark so good is who is feeding him the ball. Don't get me wrong, he is good in his own right, but I think a lot of TE's, such as the aforementioned ones in this thread, could be just as good as he is in that offense.

But that wasn't the point of my post.

My point was that those TE's are not going crazy on everybody. Sure they have good games, but we are like TE food.

Just because a TE is good doesn't mean they all have to have career days on us.

wagonhed
10-21-2010, 10:57 PM
So I take it yall don't think there is anything to this?

Patrick Willis is what, 240lbs? I think Ryans should lose 10lbs and see how he does. We average over 15lbs heavier per LB over teams like the Saints and Falcons. Cushing isn't the only one skewing that.

Yall talk about Pollard's weakness in coverage and he weighs 225, which is what, 10-15lbs more than the average SS? He is roughly the size of the starting LBs on the Saints.

It seems like we have built a run stopping LB corps. In a pass dominant league. Maybe it's time to get a fleet-footed WLB and have Ryans lose 10lb for next season?

I don't know, I'm not an expert - just grasping really.

wagonhed
10-21-2010, 11:23 PM
Here are the numbers for more teams:


Giants (2nd in pass defense):
223 starter
231
235
236 starter
245
247
249
256 starter

total: 715lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 13lbs


Panthers (5th in pass defense):
224
231 starter
232
235 starter
237 starter
237

total: 703lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 17lbs

Vikings (6th pass defense):
225
235
242 starter
244
244 starter
245 starter
252

total: 731lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 8lbs


Raiders (8th against pass, 30th against rush):
235
240
250
255 starter
255 starter
265 starter

total: 775lbs
Heavier than Texans by (avg): 7lbs


Bengals (13th vs pass):
236 starter
240
242 starter
246
252
255 starter

total: 733lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 7lbs


Bears (2nd in yards per attempt):
230 starter
230
234
239
242 starter
258 starter

total: 730lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 8lbs



Obviously the Raiders (and us) are the anomaly. I don't feel good being in a group with the Raiders, needless to say.

texasguy346
10-21-2010, 11:37 PM
I agree.

Zach Miller has twice as many receptions, twice as many yards and 3 more TD's than Owne Daniels. Yes, we all know OD is coming off his knee injury. That, said Zach Miller isn't chopped liver.

Miller is actually the leading receiver for his team in receptions, yards, and TDs.

C Madd
10-22-2010, 06:25 PM
I agree.

Zach Miller has twice as many receptions, twice as many yards and 3 more TD's than Owne Daniels. Yes, we all know OD is coming off his knee injury. That, said Zach Miller isn't chopped liver.

While he may not be chopped liver, I think Texans fans expect the LBs to keep him from having a career day. With that said, I think this game was the only one where I was disappointed in how well the LBs contained the opponent's TE.

Rey
10-22-2010, 06:47 PM
So I take it yall don't think there is anything to this?

Patrick Willis is what, 240lbs? I think Ryans should lose 10lbs and see how he does. We average over 15lbs heavier per LB over teams like the Saints and Falcons. Cushing isn't the only one skewing that.

Yall talk about Pollard's weakness in coverage and he weighs 225, which is what, 10-15lbs more than the average SS? He is roughly the size of the starting LBs on the Saints.

It seems like we have built a run stopping LB corps. In a pass dominant league. Maybe it's time to get a fleet-footed WLB and have Ryans lose 10lb for next season?

I don't know, I'm not an expert - just grasping really.

I liked how Demeco played when he was lighter.

Even after you've posted this thread some people will still say he's undersized and needs to move to Will. Demeco has been big for a while now.

I wish he'd lose a little weight myself.

thunderkyss
10-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Vikings (6th pass defense):
225
235
242 starter
244
244 starter
245 starter
252

total: 731lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 8lbs


Raiders (8th against pass, 30th against rush):
235
240
250
255 starter
255 starter
265 starter

total: 775lbs
Heavier than Texans by (avg): 7lbs


Bengals (13th vs pass):
236 starter
240
242 starter
246
252
255 starter

total: 733lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 7lbs


Bears (2nd in yards per attempt):
230 starter
230
234
239
242 starter
258 starter

total: 730lbs
lighter than Texans by (avg): 8lbs



Obviously the Raiders (and us) are the anomaly. I don't feel good being in a group with the Raiders, needless to say.

less than 10 pounds difference between us & these teams. Not a big deal to me. Vikings, Raiders, Bengals, Bears..... Meh.

I do however find it odd that none of the teams looked at so far are lighter than we are.

If Adibi was subbed for a starter, how would that change things?

thunderkyss
10-22-2010, 08:11 PM
I just looked, Adibi is listed at 242lbs.

Wow, I always thought our LBs were light compared to the rest of the league.

Rey
10-22-2010, 08:18 PM
If Adibi was subbed for a starter, how would that change things?

That brings up another interesting thought...

Seems like a lot of our players who come in and are considered 'undersized' bulk up the season after their rookie campaigns.

If you Amobi, Demeco, Slaton, and Adibi....These were all guys who came in and gained weight after their rookie years...

All of them showed flashes of being good to great in those years and it can be argued that all of them dropped off a bit in the subsequent years. All of these were guys who depended largely on their quickness and/or speed to be successful.

I wonder if the weight gain had anything to do with some of these players declining play...

I also wonder if it was just how they gained the weight, i.e maybe the strength and conditioning personnel just didn't have them going about it right...

thunderkyss
10-22-2010, 08:22 PM
That brings up another interesting thought...

I wonder if the weight gain had anything to do with some of these players declining play...

I also wonder if it was just how they gained the weight, i.e maybe the strength and conditioning personnel just didn't have them going about it right...

I don't believe any of our LBs have declined in their play. They've never been good in coverage, save Cushing.

Rey
10-22-2010, 08:26 PM
I don't believe any of our LBs have declined in their play. They've never been good in coverage, save Cushing.

IMO both Adibi and Demeco have not played as well as they did their rookie years.

Both of those guys used to fly around the field...Now, not so much...

Might be because of scheme or whatever, but I just haven't seen them move as fluidly as they did in the past...

I mean, Demeco actually hurt himself without any contact from anyone...He was moving in space and twisted wrong and hurt his achilles...

I would like to see him lose weight. I think he'd move a little better.

Rey
10-22-2010, 08:36 PM
Just to add to that, Demeco's rookie year he had 3.5 sacks, 1 INT and 6 Pass Deflections.

The next year he had one more pass defelction and he also had 1 INT.

After that year all of his numbers decreased including his tackles which have steadily declined since his rookie year.

In 2009 he upped his tackles by a bit, but he has not been the same player since his rookie year. He just hasn't. Not that he hasn't been a good LB, but he just hasn't been as great as his rookie year would have led you to believe he would be.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/totalTackles/year/2009/qualified/false

Texan_Bill
10-22-2010, 08:41 PM
LMFAO... Dick Butkus weighed in around 244. What was the average weight of offensive lineman in 1973? 250(ish)??? Just saying, weight doesn't necessarily translate to squat.

SA Converse Judson once won a 5A State Championship with offensive lineman that averaged, like 180. Weight means nada!

Skill, talent and smarts, is what matters!

JB
10-22-2010, 08:50 PM
LMFAO... Dick Butkus weighed in around 244. What was the average weight of offensive lineman in 1973? 250(ish)??? Just saying, weight doesn't necessarily translate to squat.

SA Converse Judson once won a 5A State Championship with offensive lineman that averaged, like 180. Weight means nada!

Skill, talent and smarts, is what matters!


:pissed: Damn, I knew I was missing something!


:kubepalm:JB!!! Unfortunately, I'm missing all three.

thunderkyss
10-22-2010, 08:55 PM
Just to add to that, Demeco's rookie year he had 3.5 sacks, 1 INT and 6 Pass Deflections.

The next year he had one more pass defelction and he also had 1 INT.

After that year all of his numbers decreased including his tackles which have steadily declined since his rookie year.

In 2009 he upped his tackles by a bit, but he has not been the same player since his rookie year. He just hasn't. Not that he hasn't been a good LB, but he just hasn't been as great as his rookie year would have led you to believe he would be.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/totalTackles/year/2009/qualified/false

I figured that's because the rest of the team has been getting better. Diles was a bad mama-jama at SAM, pretty damn good at the Will. Cushing.... well, you know. There are only so many tackles to go around.

Same with the sacks... after his rookie year, for some reason he wasn't the guy they sent after the QB. We sent Greenwood. More than likely the coaches thought the MLB was better in pass defense than the WiLL.

Rey
10-22-2010, 09:01 PM
I figured that's because the rest of the team has been getting better. Diles was a bad mama-jama at SAM, pretty damn good at the Will. Cushing.... well, you know. There are only so many tackles to go around.

Same with the sacks... after his rookie year, for some reason he wasn't the guy they sent after the QB. We sent Greenwood. More than likely the coaches thought the MLB was better in pass defense than the WiLL.

I hear you...

It's just that great players tend to be great regardless...

And normally when you put other good/great players around a player that was already great, they get even better...

Look at Rey Lewis, Patrick Willis or even a Zach Thomas type of player...

Those guys don't lose a beat even when you add a lot of talent around them...In fact you could even say they get better...

I would think that with added talent around Demeco he would up his game.

thunderkyss
10-22-2010, 09:44 PM
I hear you...

It's just that great players tend to be great regardless...

And normally when you put other good/great players around a player that was already great, they get even better...

Look at Rey Lewis, Patrick Willis or even a Zach Thomas type of player...

Those guys don't lose a beat even when you add a lot of talent around them...In fact you could even say they get better...

I would think that with added talent around Demeco he would up his game.

So you're saying their tackles didn't go down as talent was added? One day I'll look, but I doubt that is true. The better they get on defense, the less opportunities they'll have.

I bet.... you mean they make more plays... more big plays... more game changing plays. That I can believe.

Rey
10-22-2010, 10:03 PM
So you're saying their tackles didn't go down as talent was added? One day I'll look, but I doubt that is true. The better they get on defense, the less opportunities they'll have.

I wasn't really talking about their tackles, but P. Willis has been number one or number two for every year he's been in the league with the exception of this year....Rey Lewis has been at least a top 12 guy for most of the years he's played all 16 games...

But even so, I wasn't really talking about tackles or any stat in particular...


I bet.... you mean they make more plays... more big plays... more game changing plays. That I can believe.


This is really what I'm talking about...

When you put a bunch of talented guys on the field together they feed off each other...D linemen rush QB throws...LB's help stop the run and get cleaner hits on RB's...DB's can gamble a little bit more...

Of course that's not all the ways that they benefit from each other, but you get the point...

wagonhed
10-22-2010, 10:07 PM
Obviously the skill, smarts, talent needs to be there. But gaining 10lbs can explain a loss of speed, quickness, and agility.

How would our LBs cover, all 3 of them, if they lost 10lbs? Not to mention, would injuries go down and stamina go up?

Texan_Bill
10-22-2010, 10:08 PM
:pissed: Damn, I knew I was missing something!


:kubepalm:JB!!! Unfortunately, I'm missing all three.

Believe me when I tell you, you're missing waaaaaaay more than those three. :wadepalm:

JB
10-22-2010, 10:15 PM
Believe me when I tell you, you're missing waaaaaaay more than those three. :wadepalm:

:foottap: Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? :foottap:

Texan_Bill
10-22-2010, 11:54 PM
:foottap: Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? :foottap:

I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about... I'm not saying...

I'm just sayin'!!!