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View Full Version : Video and Analysis of Secondary Problems vs. KC


dalemurphy
10-19-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm not quite defending Kareem Jackson and the CBs but I think their growth has been stunted by the very poor play of our veteran safeties and LBs. Here's the article with video, if interested:

Pollard, Diles, and Others Haven't a Clue! (http://www.texansbullblog.com/crisis-secondary-start-cornerbacks/featured-articles/film-study/)

silvrhand
10-19-2010, 10:49 PM
Cushing really needs some work on his drops badly.. I guess those 64" stick jumping didn't help.. :\

dalemurphy
10-19-2010, 10:51 PM
Cushing really needs some work on his drops badly.. I guess those 64" stick jumping didn't help.. :\

I see lots of guys trying to make plays but few fulfilling their responsibilities. Not good... but, correctable.

JB
10-19-2010, 10:59 PM
I see lots of guys trying to make plays but few fulfilling their responsibilities. Not good... but, correctable.

I think that's it! Too many guys trying to do to much instead of doing their job and trusting their teammates.

thunderkyss
10-19-2010, 11:33 PM
I'm not quite defending Kareem Jackson and the CBs but I think their growth has been stunted by the very poor play of our veteran safeties and LBs. Here's the article with video, if interested:

Pollard, Diles, and Others Haven't a Clue! (http://www.texansbullblog.com/crisis-secondary-start-cornerbacks/featured-articles/film-study/)

I think you hit the nail on the head, I believe it's a trust issue.

I hope more people understand it's not primarily a weakness at the CB spot that ails our defense. We give up 300 yards to Fullbacks & tight ends to Washington & Indy, but they see Kareem chasing Galloway on a big play, and they blame him form the whole 400 yards.

You got receivers going for 200 yards against Oakland, but they want to blame the youth of our secondary.

We have a game against veteran CBs where two of our Receivers break 150 yards apiece on them... That don't happen in H-Town.

Eli Manning throws for 386 against the Tacks, they allowed 400 yards to Tony Romo & THE NFL wants to talk about our pass defense.....humph.

We shut down "the most productive receiver in the NFL" nobody else has done that.

thunderkyss
10-19-2010, 11:34 PM
I think that's it! Too many guys trying to do to much instead of doing their job and tructing their teammates.

When our coach says simplifying, that is what I think he is trying to correct, not dumbing down the defense.

wagonhed
10-20-2010, 12:39 AM
Man. That's bad. I mean, I already knew it was bad, but seriously.

TexansBull
10-20-2010, 12:48 AM
So is this problem easier to fix than the current perception that the corners are the problem?

dalemurphy
10-20-2010, 12:54 AM
So is this problem easier to fix than the current perception that the corners are the problem?

Well, I would say that it isn't a talent issue. So, it is possible to fix, but I'm not sure if it is easier or not. If the problem was simply Kareem Jackson, then perhaps plugging in Molden would solve it.

Scooter
10-20-2010, 01:02 AM
also painful is we had really good pressure in all but the first replay, and cassell stared down his primary receiver in all of the replays. if even forced into his second read with better coverage, 4 of those plays had real chance to turn into a negative play or turnover.

Texanmike02
10-20-2010, 01:07 AM
Dale,

You know I'm not attacking what you do. I've defended it before and I really enjoy reading it. That said, for us to presume we know exactly where every player should be is a little out there. I'm not questioning your knowledge and I agree with the overall assessment that its a big charlie foxtrot with nobody trusting anyone but I think its hard to highlight any one player on one play. Everyone is doing too much which means everyone is a little out of position.

That's just my opinion. And I still like reading yours just thought I would post the obvious.

Mike

dalemurphy
10-20-2010, 01:41 AM
Dale,

You know I'm not attacking what you do. I've defended it before and I really enjoy reading it. That said, for us to presume we know exactly where every player should be is a little out there. I'm not questioning your knowledge and I agree with the overall assessment that its a big charlie foxtrot with nobody trusting anyone but I think its hard to highlight any one player on one play. Everyone is doing too much which means everyone is a little out of position.

That's just my opinion. And I still like reading yours just thought I would post the obvious.

Mike

Mike,

You make a good point. We try to acknowledge the reality of our limited information in our blog. However, sometimes things can be very clear. For instance, it is very easy to tell when the team is playing Cover 2 and what the responsibilities are for that. Or, when they are playing straight man defense, it is fairly easy to identify responsibility.

I absolutely agree with your main assessment, though, that the problems are not about one or two players. It is about the group as a whole. That essentially is the point I'm attempting to make in this article and with the video. We tend to see the CB trailing the WR and assume he screwed up. Unfortunately, often it has to do with the LBs and safeties as well.

What I can say with some certainty, however, is that the LBs and Pollard have simply not been in position way too often this season. Acknowledging the fallibility of what we are doing, a large percentage of the video we are showing and conclusions we are drawing are likely fairly accurate. We tend to shy away from plays where it is difficult to assess what is happening.

MojoX
10-20-2010, 01:52 AM
Nice analysis. It is tough to work without perfect information, but it is telling when one sees too many linebackers in the same zone covering the same receiver or see Pollard turn and start sprinting after the TE after standing next to the LB, staring down the back.

Of course this frustration and lack of discipline about proper assignments affects not only coverage, but team tackling.

Thanks.

Texanmike02
10-20-2010, 02:21 AM
Mike,

You make a good point. We try to acknowledge the reality of our limited information in our blog. However, sometimes things can be very clear. For instance, it is very easy to tell when the team is playing Cover 2 and what the responsibilities are for that. Or, when they are playing straight man defense, it is fairly easy to identify responsibility.

I absolutely agree with your main assessment, though, that the problems are not about one or two players. It is about the group as a whole. That essentially is the point I'm attempting to make in this article and with the video. We tend to see the CB trailing the WR and assume he screwed up. Unfortunately, often it has to do with the LBs and safeties as well.

What I can say with some certainty, however, is that the LBs and Pollard have simply not been in position way too often this season. Acknowledging the fallibility of what we are doing, a large percentage of the video we are showing and conclusions we are drawing are likely fairly accurate. We tend to shy away from plays where it is difficult to assess what is happening.

Before Cushing came back I posted (maybe on the skins board) that I thought we would get significantly better with his coverage skills loosening up the requirements on the safety and allowing everything to shift back to the way it was last year. Unfortunately that hasn't happened. I hope we see the results of that starting soon. I also think that in an odd way... Ryans absence may help us with our coverage. I think he's a stud and a brilliant player but I've always wondered if his physical limitations don't play well with some of our LBs. Sharpton is pretty fluid as is Adibi but I think when we have Ryans, cush and diles out there that we are severely lacking in physical athletic ability. I have never been willing to make the trade off of Ryans limitations in exchange for more athletic and less cerebral. I guess we're going to see.

And again. I'm a fan of what you do, that was just an observation. Even just breaking down the video (I am watching fewer and fewer games a second time, that's one reason I haven't been posting in the football area much) gives me a pretty good look at what we're really dealing with. The video alone is worth its weight in gold.... the commentary is a bonus. And like I said, you're probably pretty close to it... Thanks for it again.

Mike

hradhak
10-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Thanks for the video. It says a lot.

Kubiak was saying on the presser that they were going to simplify the secondary (and it's happened to some extent). What I don't get is why is it that complicated to begin with? These guys are veterans, they should understand things like cover 2 and zone, etc.

Also, I'm really irritated with the way we tackle. I shouldn't even use the word tackle, we're looking to hit people most of the time and try and end it right then and there. We hardly ever tackle with good form, and I think that has something to do with our defensive woes.

thunderkyss
10-20-2010, 09:16 AM
So is this problem easier to fix than the current perception that the corners are the problem?

I think it will be easier to cover up, but we've been having this same problem since Kubiak got here.

I know I'm in the Kubiak Sunshine club, & this might get me kicked out. But I've been saying there are valid reasons to criticize Kubiak, but most of the haters don't ever go there. They rather pick on more subjective issues. But our LBs have sucked in pass defense before Kubiak got here, & it has gotten no better.

I thought that was why we drafted Xavier Adibi & was looking at Cato June. But Adibi is always hurt & Diles has been playing so well against the run, I understand not taking him off the field.

Cushing is fine, for a man his size, he's got pretty good wheels, drops back fine, and usually finds the passing lanes. He's great at reading the QB. You take into account his physicality & his ability to rush the passer, you can't take him off the field.

Demeco... love the guy, excellent downhill runner, good speed, smart..... but reacts too slow in pass defense if you ask me. Not very good at reading the QB or anticipating the passing lanes.

IMHO, Diles is a Demeco clone. What he brings at the LOS is worth keeping him on the field. But with Diles & Demeco on the field, your corners better keep the WRs in front of them & they better be damn good tacklers. You're basically playing with 4 safeties on the field.


.

silvrhand
10-20-2010, 10:04 AM
Cushing is fine, for a man his size, he's got pretty good wheels, drops back fine, and usually finds the passing lanes. He's great at reading the QB. You take into account his physicality & his ability to rush the passer, you can't take him off the field.


Thunder.. you are drinking the koolaid again.. Cushing is horrible in his zone drops, he's not reading the QB at all in zone coverage, he's drifting towards the middle everytime the TE drags across, or the RB releases into the flat.

Example #1 of this video is a prime example of Cushing's issue. He's drifting with the people that come into his zone getting him out of position, which means he's reading the players not the QB, which is basically staring down his receiver the WHOLE time.


Demeco... love the guy, excellent downhill runner, good speed, smart..... but reacts too slow in pass defense if you ask me. Not very good at reading the QB or anticipating the passing lanes.


MLB no matter who plays first responsibility is the run, then draw, then getting back into their zone and reading the QB's eyes. Late drops are typical for MLB's simply cause that's their order of priority.


IMHO, Diles is a Demeco clone. What he brings at the LOS is worth keeping him on the field. But with Diles & Demeco on the field, your corners better keep the WRs in front of them & they better be damn good tacklers. You're basically playing with 4 safeties on the field.


Diles has been the WORST of them all he actually starts following the TE into the MLB's zone. COMPLETLY leaving the easiest throw for a NFL QB to make, the quick slant which he can then keep down and low and give the CB almost no chance to make a play. Of course the CB's playing so far off in cover two is horrible as well.. I was a big Diles fan, but man this year he's just playing horrible for some reason.

thunderkyss
10-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Thunder.. you are drinking the koolaid again.. Cushing is horrible in his zone drops, he's not reading the QB at all in zone coverage, he's drifting towards the middle everytime the TE drags across, or the RB releases into the flat.

Example #1 of this video is a prime example of Cushing's issue. He's drifting with the people that come into his zone getting him out of position, which means he's reading the players not the QB, which is basically staring down his receiver the WHOLE time.

My assessment of Cushing is mostly from last year, he's showing a little rust in the two games he's been in this year. My assessment conforms to the way he played last year, very active in pass defense. We've never had a LB on this team that actually made it difficult for a QB to complete passes, other than Cush.

MLB no matter who plays first responsibility is the run, then draw, then getting back into their zone and reading the QB's eyes. Late drops are typical for MLB's simply cause that's their order of priority.

If I were coaching LBs, instead of telling him his responsibilities are as you pointed, I'd try to teach him to recognize situations, tendencies, formations, & players.... he can learn a lot about what's going to happen before the snap, so he can get the defense in the optimum position to make a play.

Best MLB in the game today is Brian Urlacher if you ask me. The way he drops in coverage to cover the TE & some times slot recievers, there is no way he's playing run first, draw, coverage.

The way Demeco & our guys get burned on the passes over the middle, I can believe they were coached the way you suggest.

We need to fire that coach.

Diles has been the WORST of them all he actually starts following the TE into the MLB's zone. COMPLETLY leaving the easiest throw for a NFL QB to make, the quick slant which he can then keep down and low and give the CB almost no chance to make a play. Of course the CB's playing so far off in cover two is horrible as well.. I was a big Diles fan, but man this year he's just playing horrible for some reason.

If Demeco would handle his business, instead of playing the run/draw, maybe Diles would leave that TE alone.

If our LBs handled their business, our CBs can handle theirs. As it is, they have to play quarters coverage when they should be playing cover 2.

silvrhand
10-20-2010, 01:38 PM
My assessment of Cushing is mostly from last year, he's showing a little rust in the two games he's been in this year. My assessment conforms to the way he played last year, very active in pass defense. We've never had a LB on this team that actually made it difficult for a QB to complete passes, other than Cush.


I don't remember looking at Cushing last year going, wow he is really great in pass coverage.. if anything I remember last year going wow he really needs to work on his coverage..


Best MLB in the game today is Brian Urlacher if you ask me. The way he drops in coverage to cover the TE & some times slot recievers, there is no way he's playing run first, draw, coverage.


Urlacher.. Hmm I don't agree here I would much rather have Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Bart Scott, and then Demeco/Urlacher.. Honestly Demeco has been one of the top 5-8 MLB's in the game, I personally he's the least of our issues on defense.


If Demeco would handle his business, instead of playing the run/draw, maybe Diles would leave that TE alone.


Really? If anything I see late drops by Demeco are far less worrisome than the OLB completely bailing their zones and key'ing on the wrong players, especially when they are not reading the QB.

Drop to your zone
Watch the QB, wait for him to look the receiver down.
Make a break on the ball, not the player.
execute execute execute..

thunderkyss
10-20-2010, 02:07 PM
I don't remember looking at Cushing last year going, wow he is really great in pass coverage.. if anything I remember last year going wow he really needs to work on his coverage..

I was definitely saying, "Finally, a LB who can get his hands on the ball." he had several tips last year, plus INTs, & I can remember thinking If Cushing wasn't there, that would have been a first down throw, instead of that checkdown throw... at least once.

Urlacher.. Hmm I don't agree here I would much rather have Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Bart Scott, and then Demeco/Urlacher.. Honestly Demeco has been one of the top 5-8 MLB's in the game, I personally he's the least of our issues on defense.

Yeah... I didn't mean the best, I meant best in coverage. I've seen Urlacher run with Reggie Wayne up the middle of the field..... impressive.



Really? If anything I see late drops by Demeco are far less worrisome than the OLB completely bailing their zones and key'ing on the wrong players, especially when they are not reading the QB.

The last 6 games have been horrible, because none of the three have been where they should be. I agree, we see them bunched up around Demeco way too often. But I'm just not seeing Ryans breaking on the ball very often.

Drop to your zone
Watch the QB, wait for him to look the receiver down.
Make a break on the ball, not the player.
execute execute execute..

Yep, yep, yep.....

eriadoc
10-20-2010, 03:21 PM
So do the coaches suck because they have crappy schemes, or do the coaches suck because they can't get the players to do their job?

silvrhand
10-20-2010, 03:32 PM
So do the coaches suck because they have crappy schemes, or do the coaches suck because they can't get the players to do their job?

It's one thing if one or two players are getting worse, but in reality we have a LOT of people getting worse on this defense, that tends to leads to coaching/scheme. But then again from our view it seems to be simple basic stuff that they can't get right..

I would think the coaches have to be pulling their hair out while all others are drooling all over us..

alphajoker
10-20-2010, 08:17 PM
Play #1 IMO, isn't Brice's fault as much as it is Eugene Wilson. McCain is playing the RB coming out of the backfield so he has to maintain his zone leaving the WR for Wilson to cover but he was 10 yds off of him!

thunderkyss
10-20-2010, 09:32 PM
Play #1 IMO, isn't Brice's fault as much as it is Eugene Wilson. McCain is playing the RB coming out of the backfield so he has to maintain his zone leaving the WR for Wilson to cover but he was 10 yds off of him!

He (http://www.texansbullblog.com/crisis-secondary-start-cornerbacks/featured-articles/film-study/)gives McCain a pass on this one.
1. Classic Cover 2 zone and Brian Cushing is late in his drop into the underneath zone on McCain’s side, creating an easy passing lane for Cassel (despite good, quick pressure with a 4 man rush). If Cushing sits in the zone, appropriately, Cassel has to manage the ball into a tighter window, increasing the difficulty of the throw a great deal. McCain is playing a little too soft on the WR here but I think that results form a total lack of confidence in the safety play behind him.

thunderkyss
10-20-2010, 11:55 PM
So do the coaches suck because they have crappy schemes, or do the coaches suck because they can't get the players to do their job?

May be a bit of a catch 22 here. You want them playing as a team, running to the ball. Right now, they may be playing a little too fast, reacting to things before they happen, guessing wrong.

We still want them to help each other, they should be playing as a group.

We'll be adding a new piece to the puzzle again, with a new MLB. They need to be willing to let him make a few mistakes, while they handle their responsibilities. Hopefully, if it's one player making mistakes, it will cut down on the number of big plays we've been giving up.

Rey
10-21-2010, 12:21 AM
So do the coaches suck because they have crappy schemes, or do the coaches suck because they can't get the players to do their job?

I think that I've finally come around to the possibility that the coaching on this team..On the defense specifically, just may not be all that good...

I don't know if it's the position coaches, or if it's the D-coordinator, but talent wise we should not be a sucky as we are...

Bad...ok...I can deal with that...

But I just think better defensive coaching could have done a little bit more with what we have...

We have reached all time suckiness on that side of the ball...That just shouldn't be..

eriadoc
10-21-2010, 10:34 AM
I think that I've finally come around to the possibility that the coaching on this team..On the defense specifically, just may not be all that good...

I don't know if it's the position coaches, or if it's the D-coordinator, but talent wise we should not be a sucky as we are...

Bad...ok...I can deal with that...

But I just think better defensive coaching could have done a little bit more with what we have...

We have reached all time suckiness on that side of the ball...That just shouldn't be..

One guy has been hiring all those defensive coaches. And when the defense was so awful that Richard Smith had to go, he promoted someone from that same faulty defense.

Just sayin'.

leebigeztx
10-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Pretty much what I said last year about defense being 3 levels. Its easy to look at secondary play, and they are at fault also, but the texans don't have any coverage lb on the most important down. The lb's have to understand route combos and know how to squeeze windows. When they understand the combination coming off a 3 level surface, then they can make it very hard on qbs. Now I know posters will say what about the d-line? Just like the qb having to go to 3rd read, this gives the d-line a chance to get to the qb because the qb is holding the ball. Right now, and especially a guy like cassell who won't throw the ball 10 yds down the field for his 6 ypa, if they squeeze plays, he's holding the ball and the pressure can get there. Ryans nor diles are any good in coverage and I have been saying this for awhile now. The giants got boley for a reason. They didn't get him because he's a great run stuffer or anything like that. The giants got him because he's a great cover lb and can cover flex te's as well as some slot guys. Cushing is probably the texans best cover lb once he gets back into the mix, but after that, its nothing. They all work on a string when its working right.

DexmanC
10-21-2010, 12:41 PM
Pretty much what I said last year about defense being 3 levels. Its easy to look at secondary play, and they are at fault also, but the texans don't have any coverage lb on the most important down. The lb's have to understand route combos and know how to squeeze windows. When they understand the combination coming off a 3 level surface, then they can make it very hard on qbs. Now I know posters will say what about the d-line? Just like the qb having to go to 3rd read, this gives the d-line a chance to get to the qb because the qb is holding the ball. Right now, and especially a guy like cassell who won't throw the ball 10 yds down the field for his 6 ypa, if they squeeze plays, he's holding the ball and the pressure can get there. Ryans nor diles are any good in coverage and I have been saying this for awhile now. The giants got boley for a reason. They didn't get him because he's a great run stuffer or anything like that. The giants got him because he's a great cover lb and can cover flex te's as well as some slot guys. Cushing is probably the texans best cover lb once he gets back into the mix, but after that, its nothing. They all work on a string when its working right.

Listening to Larry Izzo this morning, I can understand how Belichick can
completely rebuild all three phases of his team, and win while doing it.
Belichick understands the intricacies of ALL POSITIONS, being that he's
coached about all of them during his 30+ year career. Belichick
is a TEACHER, and even his rookies look like vets out there. By comparison, our
coaching staff is WAAAY behind, and are hoping athleticism makes
up for lack of "Football I.Q."

wagonhed
10-21-2010, 12:50 PM
Listening to Larry Izzo this morning, I can understand how Belichick can
completely rebuild all three phases of his team, and win while doing it.
Belichick understands the intricacies of ALL POSITIONS, being that he's
coached about all of them during his 30+ year career. Belichick
is a TEACHER, and even his rookies look like vets out there. By comparison, our
coaching staff is WAAAY behind, and are hoping athleticism makes
up for lack of "Football I.Q."

Belichick has over 3 times more experience than our HC and coordinators combined.

eriadoc
10-21-2010, 12:56 PM
Belichick has over 3 times more experience than our HC and coordinators combined.

Really? Kubiak's been coaching for 16 years and I'm sure Ray Rhodes has a few years under his belt.

wagonhed
10-21-2010, 01:01 PM
Really? Kubiak's been coaching for 16 years and I'm sure Ray Rhodes has a few years under his belt.
I was being concise about what I have elaborated on more fully elsewhere. That is our HC, DC, and OC have less than 6 years total at their respective positions. Kubiak has OC experience, but Bush and Dennison have none at DC and OC. Our staff is inexperienced, period.

JB
10-21-2010, 01:04 PM
I was being concise about what I have elaborated on more fully elsewhere. That is our HC, DC, and OC have less than 6 years total at their respective positions. Kubiak has OC experience, but Bush and Dennison have none at DC and OC. Our staff is inexperienced, period.

Actually, Dennison was OC at Denver '06-'08.

eriadoc
10-21-2010, 01:54 PM
I was being concise about what I have elaborated on more fully elsewhere. That is our HC, DC, and OC have less than 6 years total at their respective positions. Kubiak has OC experience, but Bush and Dennison have none at DC and OC. Our staff is inexperienced, period.

Well sure, I'm not really disputing their experience at their current positions, but Belichick's 30 years isn't all as a HC, either, and he had a bad run in CLE, don't forget.