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silvrhand
10-18-2010, 11:05 AM
I don't think he did all that bad yesterday did he? I admit I have not rewatched the game but I don't remember glaring at him going wtf are you doing. The PI call was complete BS btw IMHO..

JB
10-18-2010, 11:12 AM
I thought he played well. He made some nice tackles that others were missing.

NitroGSXR
10-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Boy I sure hated Kareem Jackson the first four games but he's done very well since. Raw but this kid's (pun intended) going to be solid for a while.

I think I like him but let's see if he learned anything after his first encounter with Peyton this coming MNF.

JWarren14
10-18-2010, 11:22 AM
Yeah that PI call was pretty awful, there was the same type of play later in the game that got no call. Officiating was pretty inconsistent.

b0ng
10-18-2010, 11:31 AM
I think Jackson being talked up as "most NFL ready" has really hurt him in the eyes of haters and fans. CB is a tough transition and I am excited for him in year 2.

BigBull17
10-18-2010, 11:35 AM
I agree he played ok, but did you see him lead blocking for Bowe on the second TD? that was bad.

IDEXAN
10-18-2010, 11:39 AM
I got to go to yesterdays game and from what I saw KJ played a pretty descent game and yes, that was a bull-sZZZ PI call on him. He actually made a real good play on the ball. Hey, it also helps when you don't have to play a Manning or a McNabb. I'm feeling more confidant about his future now as he continues to get some sometimes painful but valuable experience in the NFL.

drewmar74
10-18-2010, 11:42 AM
I agree he played ok, but did you see him lead blocking for Bowe on the second TD? that was bad.

Turned and ran with him instead of breaking him down and getting the stop? I'll have to go look for that.

m5kwatts
10-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Kareem has gotten better every week and has established himself as the best CB IMO. His coverage was very good yesterday. McCain and Quin are the whipping boys of that unit.

76Texan
10-18-2010, 02:05 PM
I agree he played ok, but did you see him lead blocking for Bowe on the second TD? that was bad.

You must be kidding me!

run-david-run
10-18-2010, 02:10 PM
Now we just need to get him some real cleats and we might have a real NFL cornerback on our roster. That man slips more than anyone I have ever seen.

76Texan
10-18-2010, 02:11 PM
I think Jackson being talked up as "most NFL ready" has really hurt him in the eyes of haters and fans. CB is a tough transition and I am excited for him in year 2.

This!


And I think the critics come from the "pro" Kyle Wilson or "pro-trade-up" to get Earl Thomas.

I wasn't buying into Mayock "most NFL ready" label and continously warned people about over-hyping. But I think it was mostly the media who did it (you know they always do).

What I see from Kareem Jackson since day one has been pretty much what I expected out of him.
A healthy KJ will be a solid corner back in the NFL for a long time.

Porky
10-18-2010, 02:13 PM
Have we sunk so low that Kareem actually looks competent? What in the heck were y'all looking at. Bad angles all day on tackles, no help in the run D at all, terrible coverage, slipping all over the place like he is wearing skates, and general ineptness now constitute a good game?

Great going Kareem. Congrats. Parade on Saturday on Kirby.

76Texan
10-18-2010, 02:37 PM
Have we sunk so low that Kareem actually looks competent? What in the heck were y'all looking at. Bad angles all day on tackles, no help in the run D at all, terrible coverage, slipping all over the place like he is wearing skates, and general ineptness now constitute a good game?

Great going Kareem. Congrats. Parade on Saturday on Kirby.

You are definitely trying to be too hard on a guy.
Why don't you observe all the players on the field (on both teams) and give me an objective opinion (that is if you can judge the other guys with the same standard!)

silvrhand
10-18-2010, 02:40 PM
Have we sunk so low that Kareem actually looks competent? What in the heck were y'all looking at. Bad angles all day on tackles, no help in the run D at all, terrible coverage, slipping all over the place like he is wearing skates, and general ineptness now constitute a good game?

Great going Kareem. Congrats. Parade on Saturday on Kirby.

I'm going to have to load up game rewind and watch, but I'm pretty sure he didn't have that bad of a game. His tackling is by far as good if not better than an average CB already.

Porky
10-18-2010, 04:13 PM
You are definitely trying to be too hard on a guy.
Why don't you observe all the players on the field (on both teams) and give me an objective opinion (that is if you can judge the other guys with the same standard!)

They all blow. Is that objective enough? The difference is this was the golden boy hand chosen by Kubes to come in and take the place of Dunta, and so far he couldn't cover his mouth if he sneezed.

Pollard would be a good in the box SS in the right D, but he can't cover. You are asking him to do something he is not capable of.

Brice McCain blows chunks. He is a very end of the roster guy on a good D at best, probably a camp cut.

#29 is ok. He can cover some, and has some skills. He belongs out there, but not as a #1 or probably not even a #2.

And don't even get me started on the FS situation.

House of Pain
10-19-2010, 12:36 AM
They all blow. Is that objective enough? The difference is this was the golden boy hand chosen by Kubes to come in and take the place of Dunta, and so far he couldn't cover his mouth if he sneezed.

Pollard would be a good in the box SS in the right D, but he can't cover. You are asking him to do something he is not capable of.

Brice McCain blows chunks. He is a very end of the roster guy on a good D at best, probably a camp cut.

#29 is ok. He can cover some, and has some skills. He belongs out there, but not as a #1 or probably not even a #2.

And don't even get me started on the FS situation.


So what you're saying is that you are pleased with them as a unit?

imatexan
10-19-2010, 01:07 AM
Have we sunk so low that Kareem actually looks competent? What in the heck were y'all looking at. Bad angles all day on tackles, no help in the run D at all, terrible coverage, slipping all over the place like he is wearing skates, and general ineptness now constitute a good game?

Great going Kareem. Congrats. Parade on Saturday on Kirby.

I agree! I am usually a homer but when it comes to Kareem his play is just plain bad!
He makes some decent plays but they are few and far in between.

midway
10-19-2010, 03:08 AM
I think Kareem looks okay, once you take everything in to consideration. It wasn't his decision to hand himself the starting job. He's definitely getting the baptism by fire and I think that with a year in the league and an off-season under his belt he'll be vastly improved by the start of next year. We just have to be willing to watch him take his lumps this year. It won't be easy on us, and it sure as hell won't be easy on him either.

76Texan
10-20-2010, 11:25 AM
They all blow. Is that objective enough? The difference is this was the golden boy hand chosen by Kubes to come in and take the place of Dunta, and so far he couldn't cover his mouth if he sneezed.

Pollard would be a good in the box SS in the right D, but he can't cover. You are asking him to do something he is not capable of.

Brice McCain blows chunks. He is a very end of the roster guy on a good D at best, probably a camp cut.

#29 is ok. He can cover some, and has some skills. He belongs out there, but not as a #1 or probably not even a #2.

And don't even get me started on the FS situation.Once again, I will say that you are being too harsh on the boy.

If you want to talk about high draft choice, why don't you rewind your DVR and wath how the #6 pick Eric Berry did in this game.

Right off the bat, I can tell you that he gave up two TDs all by his lonesome.

I really wish that the critics would put their DVR in slow motion and watch the plays of the secondary from both teams (not to mention the LBs and the DLs).

One of these days, IMHO, they will come to appreciate KJ.

silvrhand
10-20-2010, 11:44 AM
Once again, I will say that you are being too harsh on the boy.

If you want to talk about high draft choice, why don't you rewind your DVR and wath how the #6 pick Eric Berry did in this game.

Right off the bat, I can tell you that he gave up two TDs all by his lonesome.

I really wish that the critics would put their DVR in slow motion and watch the plays of the secondary from both teams (not to mention the LBs and the DLs).

One of these days, IMHO, they will come to appreciate KJ.

And the fact the guy is simply one fo the best tacklers we have on the team right now, he doesn't miss much.

thunderkyss
10-24-2010, 07:51 AM
I think Jackson being talked up as "most NFL ready" has really hurt him in the eyes of haters and fans. CB is a tough transition and I am excited for him in year 2.

I think he's played well since the beginning of the season. I think he came as advertised. Veteran receivers are getting burned all day on Sunday. This is the NFL, receivers "are on scholarship too."

By my count (& I don't pretend it to be accurate) Kareem has made a handful of bad plays & straight up got beat 3 maybe 4 times in 6 games.

I think that's pretty good for a rookie.

What hurts Kareem, I think, is that people pile all the QB yardage on the CBs.... & that is so far from the truth, especially a guy like Manning or McNabb.

thunderkyss
10-24-2010, 08:06 AM
Kareem has gotten better every week and has established himself as the best CB IMO. His coverage was very good yesterday. McCain and Quin are the whipping boys of that unit.

Really? I think Quin missed two tackles against the Chiefs... but whipping boy?

Nah... Quin's the man.

b0ng
10-24-2010, 10:05 AM
I think he's played well since the beginning of the season. I think he came as advertised. Veteran receivers are getting burned all day on Sunday. This is the NFL, receivers "are on scholarship too."

By my count (& I don't pretend it to be accurate) Kareem has made a handful of bad plays & straight up got beat 3 maybe 4 times in 6 games.

I think that's pretty good for a rookie.

What hurts Kareem, I think, is that people pile all the QB yardage on the CBs.... & that is so far from the truth, especially a guy like Manning or McNabb.

While I'd like to think that he's been average, I think the fact remains that he is a rookie and has played like a rookie, a lot. Whoever quipped about the cleats was right, he does fall down quite a bit, and I know he's gotten burned because of that at least a few times. He really doesn't have much help from the S positions (Sorry Pollard, your game is definitely hitting, not covering, and not sorry Wilson), so he's in 1 on 1 a lot. Having no pressure up front does not help either, but so far this season, he's been a rookie.

I don't believe he's already at his peak (The NFL readiness), and he will grow, but right now he doesn't have nearly the help you would want a rookie cb to have. Mostly, thought Frank Bush has made me a lot angrier about the defense than Kareem Jackson has.

El Tejano
10-25-2010, 12:44 PM
While I'd like to think that he's been average, I think the fact remains that he is a rookie and has played like a rookie, a lot. Whoever quipped about the cleats was right, he does fall down quite a bit, and I know he's gotten burned because of that at least a few times. He really doesn't have much help from the S positions (Sorry Pollard, your game is definitely hitting, not covering, and not sorry Wilson), so he's in 1 on 1 a lot. Having no pressure up front does not help either, but so far this season, he's been a rookie.

I don't believe he's already at his peak (The NFL readiness), and he will grow, but right now he doesn't have nearly the help you would want a rookie cb to have. Mostly, thought Frank Bush has made me a lot angrier about the defense than Kareem Jackson has.

I believe that Kareem is the kind of player a team like The Ravens could draft. A team that gets so much pressure up front that they could still stick a player in there and he would exceed. Kind of like Kyle Wilson with The Jets. Right now, we don't have the pressure necessary to just trot out a rookie CB like Kareem.

It's only my hope that his confidence has grown over the last bye week.

HJam72
10-25-2010, 12:47 PM
I say we just tackle the WRs at the LOS and be done with it. :)

badboy
10-25-2010, 05:18 PM
I say we just tackle the WRs at the LOS and be done with it. :)KJ misses when he tries to bump the WR off course and you want him to be responsible for tackling within the 5?

76Texan
10-30-2010, 08:55 AM
I believe that Kareem is the kind of player a team like The Ravens could draft. A team that gets so much pressure up front that they could still stick a player in there and he would exceed. Kind of like Kyle Wilson with The Jets. Right now, we don't have the pressure necessary to just trot out a rookie CB like Kareem.

It's only my hope that his confidence has grown over the last bye week.

I believe that Kareem is the kind of player a team like The Ravens could draft. A team that gets so much pressure up front that they could still stick a player in there and he would exceed. Kind of like Kyle Wilson with The Jets. Right now, we don't have the pressure necessary to just trot out a rookie CB like Kareem.

It's only my hope that his confidence has grown over the last bye week.

OK, so I decided to watch me some games of the Jets (all of them).

In their first game against the Ravens, Wilson played strictly nickel and was "torched" (using the same standard many posters here use for KJ) pretty much EVERY single time (about 11 or 12).

If you think KJ is bad then Wilson is utterly worse than garbage.
Those posters who called KJ a bust would call Wilson the biggest bust of all time.

In later games, he was used like McCain (sometimes at nickel, sometimes at CB) with worse results. He would look bad against David Anderson at this rate.

I thought he should be benched... then in the last 2 games, I don't see him in the line-up anymore.
He was still returning kick once in a while.

I wanted to give him benefit of the doubt, checking to see whether he's injured (even though he doesn't look injured on the return team) so I googled and found out that he had indeed been benched.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2010/10/29/2010-10-29_db_wilson_vexes_rex.html

By the way, Cromartie (any CB not named Revis) looked worse than KJ as well. Even Revis got burned a few times.

The KJ bashing seems rather odd, really!

thunderkyss
10-30-2010, 09:28 AM
If you think KJ is bad then Wilson is utterly worse than garbage.
Those posters who called KJ a bust would call Wilson the biggest bust of all time.


76, I think you've mistaken our fans for someone else. It doesn't matter how other rookies are doing on other teams. They are gods automatically if they get to take a snap at all in a regular season game.

If our players aren't starting at a Pro Bowl level....... garbage.

We've got guys upset because our 4th & 5th round picks aren't starting. Guys are talking about how bad our draft was, because our 6th round pick didn't make the 53.

.

76Texan
10-30-2010, 09:56 AM
76, I think you've mistaken our fans for someone else. It doesn't matter how other rookies are doing on other teams. They are gods automatically if they get to take a snap at all in a regular season game.

If our players aren't starting at a Pro Bowl level....... garbage.

We've got guys upset because our 4th & 5th round picks aren't starting. Guys are talking about how bad our draft was, because our 6th round pick didn't make the 53.

.I hear that. It gets frustrating a little at times.
I understand that people can have their own opinions.
I just wish that they dig a little deeper, that is all.

thunderkyss
10-30-2010, 10:56 AM
I hear that. It gets frustrating a little at times.
I understand that people can have their own opinions.
I just wish that they dig a little deeper, that is all.

I'd be happy if more people would apply the same standard to our team as they would to others.

Saying that Kyle Wilson sucking doesn't make Kareem Jackson sucking valid.... I can appreciate that argument.

Holding Miles Austin to 2 catches for 20 yards when the rest of the league allows him to average 130+ should be considered an excellent.

TE's & RBs running free through the middle of the field should have told our fans since the Washington Game, that the problem isn't with our young corner backs.

gtexan02
10-30-2010, 11:11 AM
No one complains about any of our players when the team plays well.

Our defense is dead last, and KJ from Drob is the biggest change from last year. of course he's going to get much of the blame.

We have teh worst passing defense in the entire NFL. Why wouldn't our CBs get blamed for that?

silvrhand
10-30-2010, 11:35 AM
No one complains about any of our players when the team plays well.

Our defense is dead last, and KJ from Drob is the biggest change from last year. of course he's going to get much of the blame.

We have teh worst passing defense in the entire NFL. Why wouldn't our CBs get blamed for that?

cause obviously last time I looked defense was a team sport, unless you want to stick your head in the sand and say hey a CB should be able to cover anyone for ANY length of time.

HJam72
10-30-2010, 01:02 PM
A lot of it really isn't the corners. It's Pollard, the LBs, and crummy schemes.

76Texan
10-30-2010, 01:40 PM
My stance is that KJ is the best CB on the team from day one.
I just finish rewatching the Colts game (for the 6th or 7th time, can't remember).

IMHO, KJ was the best CB on the field that day!

When one watch the zone defense, one also wants to consider the WR tree... how they run their routes to try to beat the zone... what each defender is supposed to do.

You may think that a receiver simply run past a CB, while the CB's assignment could be to defend the 15-17 yd route or any other underneath route.
He might try to reroute the receiver or try to funnel him toward the inside; then it will be the safety's responsibility to take care of the dead spot in the zone, for example.

Two key series in this game was when:
1. We limiited the Colts to a FG with two good plays by KJ in the red zone.
2. The hits by Pollard/Wilson that caused a fumble, turning the ball over to us.

There was also one play that KJ forced the receiver to reroute that almost resulted in an INT in the end zone for us but the safety couldn't get there in time (Manning threw to an empty corner.)

That was an excellent first game for a rookie, I'd say!

KJ is a guy with a skill set in equivalent term of Shane Battier (in his prime), only better.
(Battier doesn't provide much offense on the basketball court while KJ can go on attack mode on the football field better.)
There are a lot of little things that he does well that go unnoticed by a casual fan... how he helps make it hard for the offense to gain extra yardage.

I think he deserves anything but all these bad sentiments about his game.

CloakNNNdagger
10-30-2010, 01:49 PM
I believe that there is a general question out there of why the higher ups chose to go without even ONE experienced veteran CB...........especially in a year in which playoffs was to be a serious goal.

ubecool454
10-30-2010, 02:18 PM
Boy I sure hated Kareem Jackson the first four games but he's done very well since. Raw but this kid's (pun intended) going to be solid for a while.

I think I like him but let's see if he learned anything after his first encounter with Peyton this coming MNF.

Hated a rookie? Give the kid a chance...he's going to be very good.

NitroGSXR
10-30-2010, 03:03 PM
Hated a rookie? Give the kid a chance...he's going to be very good.

???

Seems like my post wasn't clear enough for you. I apologize. Let me try again...

I am not on the "Kareem Sucks" bandwagon. I'm firmly galloping alongside the "Kareem's REALLY Green" bandwagon.

thunderkyss
10-30-2010, 03:31 PM
I believe that there is a general question out there of why the higher ups chose to go without even ONE experienced veteran CB...........especially in a year in which playoffs was to be a serious goal.

If you can ignore all the hype, ignore all the crap that most people on this board is saying, then watch the videos provided by barrett & dalemurphy, add in 76Texans' analysis, you'll see that CB is the least of our worries.

An experienced CB would not have made any of our games any different (save maybe the Dallas game when Romo took advantage of the physicality of Roy Williams).

There are more veteran clubs out there, that are letting Dez Bryant & Miles Austin run free. They may be winning their games, we lost ours... but Dez Bryant & Miles Austin were held in check. So were Steve Smith & Mario Manningham. So was Reggie Wayne.

I'm not saying we have the best corners in the league, but they are far, far from the worst.

Rey
10-30-2010, 09:23 PM
Kareem is going to be a good corner....I firmly believe that...

The corner that I wish wouldn't see the field as much is Brice McCain....He is my least favorite corner on the team right now...In short yardage situations he needs to not be on the field...His zone covg is suspect at best and he lacks physicality...I like him gaurding receivers going deep I guess (because of his speed), but other than that I haven't seen him do a whole lot well...

beerlover
10-31-2010, 10:01 AM
Kareem is going to be a good corner....I firmly believe that...

The corner that I wish wouldn't see the field as much is Brice McCain....He is my least favorite corner on the team right now...In short yardage situations he needs to not be on the field...His zone covg is suspect at best and he lacks physicality...I like him gaurding receivers going deep I guess (because of his speed), but other than that I haven't seen him do a whole lot well...

Brice McCain is actually the Texans best cover cb, that isn't saying much about the ability of this group, Kareem included to stay glued to receiver in man to man coverage. as a group they are young, lack size & elite speed but should be middle of pack at least not last in the league bad I blame that on the coaching/assignments/scheme. The one position that could tie it all together is FS & the Texans don't have one who is elite. In hindsight maybe the Texans should have traded up for Earl Thomas? A great FS would help cover up the cb's mistakes or gambles plus bad coaching decisions.

Lucky
10-31-2010, 10:12 AM
Brice McCain is actually the Texans best cover cb...
If true (and I'm not saying it is), that's very scary.

http://img2.prosperent.com/images/250x250/img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/funworld/8874-Kids-Scary-Ghost-Face-Costume-main.jpg

No, more frightening than that.

http://bumpsinthenight.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Exorcist.jpg

Scarier.

http://www.2snaps.tv/files/images/rosie-hot-s&m-o%27donnell-view-lesbian-cop-leather-jimmy-kimmel-mama.preview.jpg

Yeah, that's it.

beerlover
10-31-2010, 10:17 AM
If true (and I'm not saying it is), that's very scary.

http://img2.prosperent.com/images/250x250/img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/funworld/8874-Kids-Scary-Ghost-Face-Costume-main.jpg

No, more frightening than that.

http://bumpsinthenight.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Exorcist.jpg

Scarier.

http://www.2snaps.tv/files/images/rosie-hot-s&m-o%27donnell-view-lesbian-cop-leather-jimmy-kimmel-mama.preview.jpg

Yeah, that's it.

:eek:

steelbtexan
10-31-2010, 10:39 AM
If true (and I'm not saying it is), that's very scary.

http://img2.prosperent.com/images/250x250/img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/funworld/8874-Kids-Scary-Ghost-Face-Costume-main.jpg

No, more frightening than that.

http://bumpsinthenight.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Exorcist.jpg

Scarier.

http://www.2snaps.tv/files/images/rosie-hot-s&m-o%27donnell-view-lesbian-cop-leather-jimmy-kimmel-mama.preview.jpg

Yeah, that's it.

LOL

A friend of mine told me that McCain looked better than Jackson in training camp this year. I'm still waiting to pass judgement on the Jackson pick. But because I trust my friends judgement I'm not really suprised that Jackson and the secondary as a whole have struggled mightly this year.

If you want to blame it on a lack of pass rush OK. But I didn't realize that MW and Barwin are the MVP's of this defense. LOL

hradhak
10-31-2010, 11:07 AM
I'd say 6 games is way too early to call a corner a bust. It's arguably the hardest position on the defense to learn. KJ's made some serious improvements from week 1 to 6 and he has been playing more consistent in that time as well. I'm not ready to pass judgement on him until after year 2. All I can say now is that if he continues to improve we will start seeing fewer passes to his side of the field.

76Texan
10-31-2010, 11:29 AM
If you can ignore all the hype, ignore all the crap that most people on this board is saying, then watch the videos provided by barrett & dalemurphy, add in 76Texans' analysis, you'll see that CB is the least of our worries.

An experienced CB would not have made any of our games any different (save maybe the Dallas game when Romo took advantage of the physicality of Roy Williams).

There are more veteran clubs out there, that are letting Dez Bryant & Miles Austin run free. They may be winning their games, we lost ours... but Dez Bryant & Miles Austin were held in check. So were Steve Smith & Mario Manningham. So was Reggie Wayne.

I'm not saying we have the best corners in the league, but they are far, far from the worst.

Actually, some of us were discussing whether the Texans should keep Reeves for another year.

My thought was that they should keep him unless Molden proves enough to the coaches during PS that he can take over that place for match-up purpose.
(I also like McMannis, but again, he would add another inexperience DB to our corp.)
That way, we don't have to put McCain out there against big and/or tall receivers.

When Rey said that McCain lack physicality, I take it he means that McCain is smallish and short (5-9, low to mid 180 lbs). Pound for pound, I think McCain is pretty physical, but there's no denying that it is hard for him to stay with 6'1-210 guys (and above) consistently.
His vertical leap measurement of 36.5" pales when compared with Quin 40-3/4".

It helps that McCain can stay with a tall receiver, but when the ball is high up there, it represents a difficult task.
Otherwise, we would have seen McCain taking over Quin's spot.
Otherwise, the Texans would't have drafted KJ in the first place.

76Texan
10-31-2010, 11:37 AM
There were articles and radio spot claiming that KJ was sliced up by Peyton Manning. The truth is far from that. When I have some time, I will try to offer my view on the pass plays from that game in an effort to try to dispell that notion.

Rey
10-31-2010, 03:29 PM
Brice McCain is actually the Texans best cover cb, that isn't saying much about the ability of this group, Kareem included to stay glued to receiver in man to man coverage. as a group they are young, lack size & elite speed but should be middle of pack at least not last in the league bad I blame that on the coaching/assignments/scheme. The one position that could tie it all together is FS & the Texans don't have one who is elite. In hindsight maybe the Texans should have traded up for Earl Thomas? A great FS would help cover up the cb's mistakes or gambles plus bad coaching decisions.

I cannot blame FS play for all the times that these corners have been roasted..

Especially McCain...I like his athletic ability, but when the ball is in the air he's a liability...Think about that statement...

But you are right in the sense that it is not all his fault. IMHO the coaches don't put him (and some other players) in the best position to succeed.

I do not understand why they insist on putting him on some of the bigger receivers...

I don't care if GQ goes into the slot...If you have a small, shifty receiver in the slot that should be McCain's assignment...That seems like pretty simple logic to me...

If the other teams doesn't have that type of receiver on the field, mix in another CB...Molden is healthy...He could probably match up against some of the bigger receivers better...

I'm just tired of seeing him getting pwned out there...He;s my least favorite corner that gets PT right now...

I actually like Kareem better than McCain. He's bigger and more physical. And even though he gets beat a lot too I think he will get noticeably better. I don't know how much room McCain has to grow. Hopefully they all get better because we need them to.

thunderkyss
10-31-2010, 03:45 PM
I actually like Kareem better than McCain. He's bigger and more physical. And even though he gets beat a lot too I think he will get noticeably better. I don't know how much room McCain has to grow. Hopefully they all get better because we need them to.

You're going to have to define "a lot"

I don't believe our corners are getting beat a lot, certainly no more than other corners in the NFL.

McCain had bad games against Dallas & NYGiants...... never mind that their other receivers were shut down & the guy third on their charts had a good day.

McCain played several games last year, where he was very impressive & outside of the Giants/Cowboys game, he's been pretty solid.

.

Rey
10-31-2010, 04:00 PM
You're going to have to define "a lot"

I don't believe our corners are getting beat a lot, certainly no more than other corners in the NFL.



McCain played several games last year, where he was very impressive & outside of the Giants/Cowboys game, he's been pretty solid.

TK...

A lot to me = our corners not making many plays on the ball. They rarely break up passes. They definitely aren't jumping any routes. If we aren't getting pressure on the opposing QB's then our corners are pretty much dead meat. When was our last coverage sack? LOL

Even with all the weapons we have and our good passing attack, Matt still has to hold onto the ball and either throw it away or eat a sack....How often do opposing QB's do that against us?

McCain didn't have a good day against the Colts either. By my count that's at least 3 games. We've only played six. 50% is a lot.

Sure if you take into account the entire NFL our corners probably aren't as bad as they seem...But don't look at the whole NFL...Look at successful teams in the NFL...Look at teams that look like they are super bowl contenders..

When I watch teams that have good to dominant defenses their corners play a hell of a lot better than ours.

And McCain wasn't "very impressive" last year IMO. If he would have been "very impressive" then I don't think we would have needed to bring in one of the better FA corners and then spend a first round pick on one. If he would have been "very impressive" then I think the coaches would have given him a more legit chance at a starting job.

The fact is that he was o.k last year. He didn't play as much last year so therefore he wasn't exposed as much.

McCain had bad games against Dallas & NYGiants...... never mind that their other receivers were shut down & the guy third on their charts had a good day.

????


Not sure what you really mean here. First, I wasn't even criticizing the rest of the secondary. I'm actually o.k with the rest of them. They have not done well either, but IMO McCain has been the worst and he doesn't even play as much as them.

Also, because AJ goes off for 150, KW catches 60 and OD only catches 20...that doesn't mean that the other team shut OD or Jacoby down...Not sure how you are coming up with that...

All it means is that there were easier pickings some where else...

It's not like the Giants and Cowboys were throwing to those other recievers and our corners had them on lock. It was more like the limited passes the other receivers saw they caught.


TK...Teams that aren't even all that great at passing the ball have come into our house and shredded us in the air. No that isn't all on the corners, but when you have three of them on the field and only 2 LB's and only 2 Safeties, a large part of that is on them. LB's can't get out there and guard those sideline routes.

We are the worst pass defense in the leauge...by far....

Yeah...to me that = our corners getting beat a lot.

Dallas decided to throw on us instead of running the ball to drain the clock. Teams that have successful running games and have had their backs picking up good chunks of yardage have gone away from that in lieu of the passing game because it's so much more effective against us...

There is no way that teams will do that if our corners weren't so terrible. No way. I don't care if our LB's and safeties were bottom 2 in the league. If our corners were decent at defending the pass teams wouldn't have done what they have done to us so far.

thunderkyss
10-31-2010, 04:19 PM
TK...
When was our last coverage sack? LOL

Technically, the sack that ended the KC game was a coverage sack. & I should remember better, but we've had two bonafide coverage sacks this year.

I think I remember one, with Mario in coverage on a tight-end, & I was screaming that our LBs should take notes.

McCain didn't have a good day against the Colts either. By my count that's at least 3 games. We've only played six. 50% is a lot.

I don't remember that game too well, but I don't remember him being picked on as badly as in the other games. I marked Indy down as poor LB play.

Sure if you take into account the entire NFL our corners probably aren't as bad as they seem...But don't look at the whole NFL...Look at successful teams in the NFL...Look at teams that look like they are super bowl contenders..

Good point. No rebuttle here.

Not sure what you really mean here. First, I wasn't even criticizing the rest of the secondary. I'm actually o.k with the rest of them. They have not done well either, but IMO McCain has been the worst and he doesn't even play as much as them.

Also, because AJ goes off for 150, KW catches 60 and OD only catches 20...that doesn't mean that the other team shut OD or Jacoby down...Not sure how you are coming up with that...

Miles Austin & Jason Witten are 1 & 2 on the Cowboys team. If Andre had 2 catches for 20 yards & OD had 50 yards receiving, and Walter turns in a 160 yard game, I'd say someone (Asumagha, Revis...... Matt never threw their way) had a good game.

TK...Teams that aren't even all that great at passing the ball have come into our house and shredded us in the air. No that isn't all on the corners, but when you have three of them on the field and only 2 LB's and only 2 Safeties, a large part of that is on them. LB's can't get out there and guard those sideline routes.

We are the worst pass defense in the leauge...by far....

Yeah...to me that = our corners getting beat a lot.

I really believe it's the LBs, then the safeties, then the CBs.

ubecool454
10-31-2010, 04:22 PM
Kareem is going to be a good corner....I firmly believe that...

The corner that I wish wouldn't see the field as much is Brice McCain....He is my least favorite corner on the team right now...In short yardage situations he needs to not be on the field...His zone covg is suspect at best and he lacks physicality...I like him gaurding receivers going deep I guess (because of his speed), but other than that I haven't seen him do a whole lot well...
I don't want to hate on Brice but I can't understand him being on the field before Molden. Brice kind of reminds me of Petey Faggins.

Rey
10-31-2010, 04:50 PM
Technically, the sack that ended the KC game was a coverage sack. & I should remember better, but we've had two bonafide coverage sacks this year.



They had to throw a hail mary there...Long routes, QB has to hold the ball for a little while by nature...

Everyone knew that..

But if I recall correctly, Antonio flushed the QB pretty fast and Amobi chased him down and came up with the sack???

Miles Austin & Jason Witten are 1 & 2 on the Cowboys team. If Andre had 2 catches for 20 yards & OD had 50 yards receiving, and Walter turns in a 160 yard game, I'd say someone (Asumagha, Revis...... Matt never threw their way) had a good game.

That would be a safe assumption seeing that they are probably top three CB's in the NFL. We don't have a CB close to that caliber so I wouldn't make that assumption if our numbers shook out like that...

But that wasn't really my point..

If Reggie Wayne catches a 40 yard pass that doesn't mean that Austin Collie wasn't open for a twenty yard pass...Because another receiver has a good day doesn't necessarily mean that his cohorts were locked down.

And that's not even taking into account the opponent. How could we possibly tell whether Kareem or McCain locked down a WR or if the WR just sucked on that play? Did the WR drop a catch able ball? Did he run a bad route? Did the QB make a bad throw there? Did someone up front miss a block and not even allow the QB to fully scan? Did the QB just not see the open receiver?

My point is that just because 'Result A' happens on a football field doesn't mean 'Cause A' was the reason for it.

I thin kit would be very hard to be this bad in pass defense if we had games where our corners had actually locked any receiver down.

Rey
10-31-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't want to hate on Brice but I can't understand him being on the field before Molden. Brice kind of reminds me of Petey Faggins.

I won't go that far...

At least he tends to be around the ball when he's in man coverage...He seems to get pwned by bigger more physical receivers...And I don't think he has a great feel for zone coverage....

ubecool454
10-31-2010, 04:58 PM
???

Seems like my post wasn't clear enough for you. I apologize. Let me try again...

I am not on the "Kareem Sucks" bandwagon. I'm firmly galloping alongside the "Kareem's REALLY Green" bandwagon.

Fair enough

beerlover
10-31-2010, 05:45 PM
I actually like Kareem better than McCain. He's bigger and more physical. And even though he gets beat a lot too I think he will get noticeably better. I don't know how much room McCain has to grow. Hopefully they all get better because we need them to.

I sure hope a pretty high 1st rd. pick (20th overall) is a better prospect than someone playing the same position drafted in the 6th round (188th overall) I happen to feel Brice offers significantly better value if you take this into consideration....:)

Rey
10-31-2010, 05:58 PM
I sure hope a pretty high 1st rd. pick (20th overall) is a better prospect than someone playing the same position drafted in the 6th round (188th overall) I happen to feel Brice offers significantly better value if you take this into consideration....:)

I don't...

If I think Kareem is already a better overall player and will get much better than he is now then there is no way I see McCain as being good value.

I don't even want McCain to be on the field as much as he is and I don't see him as being a good special teams player...

I'd really like to see either Molden or McMannis get in the mix some...I really don't like what McCain brings to the table except for select situations...

thunderkyss
10-31-2010, 06:23 PM
I thin kit would be very hard to be this bad in pass defense if we had games where our corners had actually locked any receiver down.

Even though it isn't receivers beating us on a regular basis?

My point isn't that our CBs are the greatest.

We've got the worse pass defense in the league... naturally people want to blame the secondary, specifically the CBs. That is simply not the case.

Rey
10-31-2010, 07:17 PM
Even though it isn't receivers beating us on a regular basis?

My point isn't that our CBs are the greatest.

We've got the worse pass defense in the league... naturally people want to blame the secondary, specifically the CBs. That is simply not the case.

I know it isn't all on the corners. But my point is that we wouldn't be as bad as we were if our corners were not a part of the problem.

I understand how much a LB adds/subtracts from the passing game...I get that...

I know how much a good ball hawk safety can change the outlook of a teams pass defense...

But I still contend that our corners are just as bad right now as the rest of the pass defense. If they were decent, we wouldn't be dead last by a large margin. If they were decent, teams would not have done to us what they have done. KC is not even a passing team and they came into our house and acted a monkey (for their standards) in the air. All of that was not TE's. Even if some of it was, sometimes we actually have corners covering those guys.

If our corners were decent, it would alleviate some of our struggles...That isn't the case...they just add more fuel to the fire...:roast:

beerlover
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
I know it isn't all on the corners. But my point is that we wouldn't be as bad as we were if our corners were not a part of the problem.

I understand how much a LB adds/subtracts from the passing game...I get that...

I know how much a good ball hawk safety can change the outlook of a teams pass defense...

But I still contend that our corners are just as bad right now as the rest of the pass defense. If they were decent, we wouldn't be dead last by a large margin. If they were decent, teams would not have done to us what they have done. KC is not even a passing team and they came into our house and acted a monkey (for their standards) in the air. All of that was not TE's. Even if some of it was, sometimes we actually have corners covering those guys.

If our corners were decent, it would alleviate some of our struggles...That isn't the case...they just add more fuel to the fire...:roast:

sounds like we have a bunch of 6th rounders out there, geez :kubepalm:

badboy
11-01-2010, 11:49 AM
I'd say 6 games is way too early to call a corner a bust. It's arguably the hardest position on the defense to learn. KJ's made some serious improvements from week 1 to 6 and he has been playing more consistent in that time as well. I'm not ready to pass judgement on him until after year 2. All I can say now is that if he continues to improve we will start seeing fewer passes to his side of the field.The improvement that you see is because he was so far behind where he should have been. KJ is not a cover type nor was he at Alabama. You might be able to make a turkey into a raptor but it will take a long time. No one should be upset at KJ as this is all on Kubiak.

badboy
11-01-2010, 11:53 AM
I cannot blame FS play for all the times that these corners have been roasted..

Especially McCain...I like his athletic ability, but when the ball is in the air he's a liability...Think about that statement...

But you are right in the sense that it is not all his fault. IMHO the coaches don't put him (and some other players) in the best position to succeed.

I do not understand why they insist on putting him on some of the bigger receivers...

I don't care if GQ goes into the slot...If you have a small, shifty receiver in the slot that should be McCain's assignment...That seems like pretty simple logic to me...
If the other teams doesn't have that type of receiver on the field, mix in another CB...Molden is healthy...He could probably match up against some of the bigger receivers better...

I'm just tired of seeing him getting pwned out there...He;s my least favorite corner that gets PT right now...

I actually like Kareem better than McCain. He's bigger and more physical. And even though he gets beat a lot too I think he will get noticeably better. I don't know how much room McCain has to grow. Hopefully they all get better because we need them to.I made this point on another thread and got blasted for it. McCain should always be in the slot. Quin has enough speed to keep up with most WRs. I do agree with Beerlover that an Earl Thomas ranginf the backfield would definitely help these young corners. Too bad there is not a Thomas type FS in the next draft.

76Texan
11-01-2010, 04:21 PM
The improvement that you see is because he was so far behind where he should have been. KJ is not a cover type nor was he at Alabama. You might be able to make a turkey into a raptor but it will take a long time. No one should be upset at KJ as this is all on Kubiak.

You have got to be kidding me!
I suggest you rewatch the KC game one more time.
KJ was where he was supposed to be all the time.
He even showed up where another CB couldn't get to in help defense.

There were about 4 or 5 questionable plays I can see people may point to, none of which was his major responsibility.

The two TDs:
One in which Barrett and some think he took a bad angle in help pursuit (I say that he took the correct angle.)
Another TD, it seems like he couldn't get off the blocker (receiver) to help stop the runner from the end zone (after a million guys had missed).
I say he was held (he even looked at the side line judge to ask for one).

The two times that he slipped, he was more or less able to maintain his help assignment which is to turn the runner inside for pursuit to arrive.

There was another instance in help stopping the run, it also seemed he had a hard time, but he was also held. This one was quite evident since his shoulder jersey can be seen pulled above the shoulder pad.

Other than that, KJ did everything you can possibly add a solid CB to do.
No, he didn'd do a lot of spectacular things.
But he helped in preventing the Chiefs converting a couple of key third down chances.

Watch him on every play in slow motion and try to imagine any other CB in the same position. Hopefully one day people will recognize that their team has got a pretty good player that can be depended on.

I will say this:
If each player do their part like KJ does his, this defense will be tremendous, or at least very capable!

Rey
11-01-2010, 05:14 PM
sounds like we have a bunch of 6th rounders out there, geez :kubepalm:

Honestly, I don't think it's all on the personnel. I give McCain a hard time, but he has valuable skills. I just don't think he is always put in a good position by the coaching staff.

I think our personnel over there is fine. Talent wise, we should not be as bad as we are defensively.

I'll just be frank (no pun intended), and say that the defensive coaching staff has underperformed thus far...IMHO...

And that is really the biggest thing to me.

Rey
11-01-2010, 05:14 PM
You have got to be kidding me!
I suggest you rewatch the KC game one more time.
KJ was where he was supposed to be all the time.
He even showed up where another CB couldn't get to in help defense.

There were about 4 or 5 questionable plays I can see people may point to, none of which was his major responsibility.

The two TDs:
One in which Barrett and some think he took a bad angle in help pursuit (I say that he took the correct angle.)
Another TD, it seems like he couldn't get off the blocker (receiver) to help stop the runner from the end zone (after a million guys had missed).
I say he was held (he even looked at the side line judge to ask for one).

The two times that he slipped, he was more or less able to maintain his help assignment which is to turn the runner inside for pursuit to arrive.

There was another instance in help stopping the run, it also seemed he had a hard time, but he was also held. This one was quite evident since his shoulder jersey can be seen pulled above the shoulder pad.

Other than that, KJ did everything you can possibly add a solid CB to do.
No, he didn'd do a lot of spectacular things.
But he helped in preventing the Chiefs converting a couple of key third down chances.

Watch him on every play in slow motion and try to imagine any other CB in the same position. Hopefully one day people will recognize that their team has got a pretty good player that can be depended on.

I will say this:
If each player do their part like KJ does his, this defense will be tremendous, or at least very capable!


Gonna have to agree with a lot of this.

Kareem is going to be a good player....JMO!

badboy
11-01-2010, 05:18 PM
You have got to be kidding me!
I suggest you rewatch the KC game one more time.
KJ was where he was supposed to be all the time.
He even showed up where another CB couldn't get to in help defense.

There were about 4 or 5 questionable plays I can see people may point to, none of which was his major responsibility.

The two TDs:
One in which Barrett and some think he took a bad angle in help pursuit (I say that he took the correct angle.)
Another TD, it seems like he couldn't get off the blocker (receiver) to help stop the runner from the end zone (after a million guys had missed).
I say he was held (he even looked at the side line judge to ask for one).

The two times that he slipped, he was more or less able to maintain his help assignment which is to turn the runner inside for pursuit to arrive.

There was another instance in help stopping the run, it also seemed he had a hard time, but he was also held. This one was quite evident since his shoulder jersey can be seen pulled above the shoulder pad.

Other than that, KJ did everything you can possibly add a solid CB to do.
No, he didn'd do a lot of spectacular things.
But he helped in preventing the Chiefs converting a couple of key third down chances.

Watch him on every play in slow motion and try to imagine any other CB in the same position. Hopefully one day people will recognize that their team has got a pretty good player that can be depended on.

I will say this:
If each player do their part like KJ does his, this defense will be tremendous, or at least very capable!I think your post defends mine. KJ is good within 15-20 yards of LOS but can't cover. Yes, if he does not get faked out of his socks( that will lessen as he gets experience) and if he does not try to bump the WR and miss, he can get within a couple of feet of the WR when the ball arrives. Not what we need. He will be a good CB eventually if he is not across from the #1 WR.

beerlover
11-02-2010, 12:01 AM
in the 4th quarter Kareem dropped a wounded duck off his fingertips that could have given the Texans a chance. his tackling is solid, slipped inside on a couple slants but otherwise not in position to make a play while defending Indy's 2nd or 3rd options. McCain had Wayne all night & for the most part played him tight. Manning only got hurried twice & sacked once. LB's missing in action, Cushing is not a MLB. Wilson was decent but if he doesn't pick up the read he lacks the recovery speed to help out or make the tackle. Quinn was beaten all night, I swear they need to move him to FS. Did not see McManis or Molden except for special teams, Molden made a nice recovery on a punt that hit Jacoby in the helmet down on Texans five.

Once again the Texans came unprepared not just the secondary but the LB's DL & OL :rant:

Rey
11-02-2010, 12:21 AM
Mccain wasn't on wayne all night. I thought the defense did well enough this game for us to win. Our offense was the problem.

But mccain had some good and bad moments tonight.

76Texan
11-02-2010, 01:33 AM
in the 4th quarter Kareem dropped a wounded duck off his fingertips that could have given the Texans a chance. his tackling is solid, slipped inside on a couple slants but otherwise not in position to make a play while defending Indy's 2nd or 3rd options. McCain had Wayne all night & for the most part played him tight. Manning only got hurried twice & sacked once. LB's missing in action, Cushing is not a MLB. Wilson was decent but if he doesn't pick up the read he lacks the recovery speed to help out or make the tackle. Quinn was beaten all night, I swear they need to move him to FS. Did not see McManis or Molden except for special teams, Molden made a nice recovery on a punt that hit Jacoby in the helmet down on Texans five.

Once again the Texans came unprepared not just the secondary but the LB's DL & OL :rant:Once again, I think you are just nit-picking for the sake of trying to defend your position.

My position is that I had spent at least 70 hours on each of the Texans game the previous 3 years, many in the upward of 100-120 hours.
I also spent enormous amount of time watching KJ played at Alabama.
Everything I said about him in my scouting thread has been proven accurate.

Solid player. If every other player can be "solid" just the same (according to their status: draft position, year in service), we would have a very good defense.

Nothing has changed regarding my assessment (to include other players as well).
I've always been quick to put on a disclaimer that I'm not a pro, but I also stand firm on the ground that the more one study, the more one learn!
(Watching games is only a part of the studying).

76Texan
11-02-2010, 01:38 AM
I think your post defends mine. KJ is good within 15-20 yards of LOS but can't cover. Yes, if he does not get faked out of his socks( that will lessen as he gets experience) and if he does not try to bump the WR and miss, he can get within a couple of feet of the WR when the ball arrives. Not what we need. He will be a good CB eventually if he is not across from the #1 WR.

Please elaborate!

Because I don't think any part of my posts defend yours!

76Texan
11-02-2010, 01:42 AM
I think your post defends mine. KJ is good within 15-20 yards of LOS but can't cover. Yes, if he does not get faked out of his socks( that will lessen as he gets experience) and if he does not try to bump the WR and miss, he can get within a couple of feet of the WR when the ball arrives. Not what we need. He will be a good CB eventually if he is not across from the #1 WR.

To take it further, I will offer my share to do a play by play on each and every single play on both sides of the ball.

I will defend KJ.
You can defend the other CBs (from both teams.)

Brisco_County
11-02-2010, 01:48 AM
Kareem showed improvement tonight. That's all I can say positive about that game.

The Cush
11-02-2010, 02:28 AM
Kareem showed improvement tonight. That's all I can say positive about that game.

He's definately played better the last couple of games compared to how this season started. Manning seemed to not throw in his direction as often as other quarterbacks did early, thats a good sign. I loved that open field shoe-string tackle on a check down that looked like it could go for about 15 yards with Kareem being the only man there. This season has been nothing but missed tackle after missed tackle by our entire team it was a nice surprise

badboy
11-02-2010, 09:06 AM
You have got to be kidding me!
I suggest you rewatch the KC game one more time.
KJ was where he was supposed to be all the time.
He even showed up where another CB couldn't get to in help defense.

There were about 4 or 5 questionable plays I can see people may point to, none of which was his major responsibility.

The two TDs:
One in which Barrett and some think he took a bad angle in help pursuit (I say that he took the correct angle.)
Another TD, it seems like he couldn't get off the blocker (receiver) to help stop the runner from the end zone (after a million guys had missed).
I say he was held (he even looked at the side line judge to ask for one).

The two times that he slipped, he was more or less able to maintain his help assignment which is to turn the runner inside for pursuit to arrive.

There was another instance in help stopping the run, it also seemed he had a hard time, but he was also held. This one was quite evident since his shoulder jersey can be seen pulled above the shoulder pad.

Other than that, KJ did everything you can possibly add a solid CB to do.
No, he didn'd do a lot of spectacular things.
But he helped in preventing the Chiefs converting a couple of key third down chances.

Watch him on every play in slow motion and try to imagine any other CB in the same position. Hopefully one day people will recognize that their team has got a pretty good player that can be depended on.

I will say this:
If each player do their part like KJ does his, this defense will be tremendous, or at least very capable!Best quote I heard this morning after the Colts game about KJ "He did look better. At least this game he was in the same zip code."

badboy
11-02-2010, 09:09 AM
in the 4th quarter Kareem dropped a wounded duck off his fingertips that could have given the Texans a chance. his tackling is solid, slipped inside on a couple slants but otherwise not in position to make a play while defending Indy's 2nd or 3rd options. McCain had Wayne all night & for the most part played him tight. Manning only got hurried twice & sacked once. LB's missing in action, Cushing is not a MLB. Wilson was decent but if he doesn't pick up the read he lacks the recovery speed to help out or make the tackle. Quinn was beaten all night, I swear they need to move him to FS. Did not see McManis or Molden except for special teams, Molden made a nice recovery on a punt that hit Jacoby in the helmet down on Texans five.

Once again the Texans came unprepared not just the secondary but the LB's DL & OL :rant:Exactly the way I saw it also. These same player beat a better Indy team than they lost to last night. IMO, Kubiak bought his ticket out of town but I doubt he will have to use it.

2slik4u
11-02-2010, 09:29 AM
Two things:

1. KJ looked worlds better last night. Saw him make some great plays on Wayne a few times.

2. I am finally accepting the fact that Pollard cant cover air.

***On another note, Pollard and Cush just dont look like they did last year. It sucks because we rely so much on them.***

And why the eff can we not get to the passer? I would say we have some of the best talent in the NFL on our D-line but for some reason we just cant finish plays.

I would also like to see more blitzes.

Thats it for my Tuesday morning coaching session.